Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 7 Jun 1940

Vol. 24 No. 19

Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1940—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor)

The purpose of the Bill is to amend the existing Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts by the enactment of certain provisions which are essential or highly desirable in the light of the present emergency.

Section 4 of the Bill enables the Government, when they consider that the circumstances are of such a nature as to warrant their so doing, to make an order declaring that a state of emergency exists for the purposes of the Bill, and to revoke any such order when there is no further necessity for its remaining in force. On such an order being made, certain sections of the Bill, which are of an emergency nature and which I now propose to explain, would become operative.

Taking them in order, the first section of an emergency nature is Section 10, which provides that during a period in which an order declaring a state of emergency to exist is in force, the Minister for Defence may require transport undertakings to give priority to military traffic. No difficulty in regard to transport arrangements has been experienced during the mobilisations which have taken place since the commencement of the present emergency and I do not anticipate that in normal circumstances it will be necessary to use the powers provided by the section. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that in certain circumstances it would be very desirable that the powers should exist and it is considered advisable, therefore, to ensure now that they will be available, if required.

Provision is made for the payment of compensation at agreed rates to the owners of transport undertakings in respect of any action taken under Section 10, or if agreement cannot be reached as to the amount of compensation, for the matter to be dealt with in accordance with legislation to be enacted. In this connection I hope to introduce at an early date legislation providing for a system of arbitration.

The next section of an emergency nature is Section 12. This section enables the Minister for Defence to make regulations governing the question of billeting in a period of emergency. Power already exists in regard to this matter under the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923, but when the necessary machinery was being prepared in connection with the present emergency, it was found that the procedure laid down in the 1923 Act would be very difficult in operation. It requires the Government to authorise by name the officers who may issue billeting requisitions and further provides that the authorised officers must direct the requisitions to the Chief Officer of Police of the district in which the billets are required, the police officer in question then being responsible for the provision of the billets. In the circumstances in which billeting would become necessary this procedure would be unduly cumbersome and rigid and it is proposed to simplify it as far as possible in the Regulations which will be made under Section 12 and which, among other things, will prescribe the rates to be paid for billets.

An extremely important section is Section 24 which will enable enlistment in the Regular Forces for the period of an emergency. Existing legislation permits of enlistment for a definite period of years only and the section is essential, therefore, in connection with the present recruiting campaign arising out of the Government's decision to enlist men in the Forces for the duration of the present emergency. The procedure in regard to enlistment, attestation, etc., in such circumstances is fully prescribed in the Bill.

Section 56 provides that in a period of an emergency certain sections of the Road Traffic Act, 1933, regarding speed limits, the carrying of lights, etc., will not apply to members of the Defence Forces during the period of an emergency. Instructions will be issued by the military authorities to ensure that these exemptions, which are intended only for periods of grave emergency when circumstances would render them absolutely essential, will not be misused.

That disposes of the sections which actually become operative during a period of an emergency but there are two others which, while not specified as such, are of an emergency nature. The first is Section 11 which will enable the Minister to require that plant, vessels, vehicles, etc., of transport undertakings which may in an emergency have to be requisitioned for military purposes shall be suitably adapted so as to meet military requirements. This is a section which is not likely to be extensively used. If it is used, care will be taken to ensure that there is as little interference as possible with the normal use of the articles. I mentioned in the Dáil a visualised instance, namely, that owners of omnibuses might conceivably be required to adapt them by the introduction of fittings which would enable them to be used as ambulances if the necessity arose. Provision is made for the payment of compensation in any such cases at rates to be agreed upon, or if agreement cannot be reached, in a manner to be prescribed by legislation.

The other section is Section 57 which provides that members of the Reserve who are called out on permanent service and persons who enlist in the Forces in a period of emergency will be reinstated in their employment on demobilisation. I think it will be generally agreed that this provision is highly desirable and no more than reasonable to safeguard the interests of employees who offer their services to the State in an emergency such as the present. I am sure that the majority of employers will recognise that it is their duty to reinstate their employees who respond to the Government's appeal to the men of the country, but it is considered desirable to provide against any employer who might utilise the present position to dispense with the services of some of his employees permanently. In sub-section (2) of Section 57 reasonable safeguards as between employer and employee are provided in regard to contracts of service and apprenticeship. It is provided in sub-section (4) that the Minister for Industry and Commerce may make regulations to restrain employers from dispensing with the services of their employees because of any commitments—such as liability for annual training—which they may enter upon as members of the Defence Forces.

The Bill also deals with the question of the liability of members of the Defence Forces to be employed on military service. The position in this regard is not clearly stated in existing legislation. The actual liability of members of the Defence Forces (other than the crews of State ships, who will be mentioned later) is now prescribed by Section 41 to be confined to the area of the State. Section 5 provides that where, as occasionally happens, members of the Defence Forces are abroad on courses of instruction or as members of equitation teams, etc., the Defence Forces Acts will apply to them. This will cover such matters as subjection to military discipline.

I think I may refer here to Section 6, which relates to active service. Under Section 2 of the 1923 Act, the Government may declare the troops to be on active service only in the case of imminent or recent operations against the enemy. It is not considered desirable that a declaration of active service should be synonymous with a declaration that attack by an enemy is imminent and Section 6 (2) of this Bill provides that the Government may declare the troops to be on active service whenever they are of opinion that circumstances are of such a nature as to warrant their so doing.

A number of sections of the Bill arise out of the establishment of the Marine and Coast-watching Service. In connection with this service a small number of motor torpedo boats and trawlers have been and are being acquired for the patrolling of territorial waters. The service is not at present sufficiently large to justify its maintenance as a separate force. It is being maintained, therefore, as a component of the Defence Forces, its personnel being governed by the Defence Forces Acts.

The most important of the sections relating to this service are Section 50, which provides for the maintenance of public armed vessels; Sections 17 and 18, which will enable marine ranks and ratings to be conferred on the personnel of the vessels, and Sections 45 to 48 which, in conjunction with the Sixth Schedule, prescribe a code of marine offences. Section 41 provides for the liability of the crews to serve outside territorial waters. It may be necessary for the vessels to proceed outside territorial waters in circumstances such as the carrying out of rescue work or in pursuit of vessels which had entered the waters in contravention of international law.

Sections 43 and 44 are necessary to enable the personnel of Voluntary Aid Societies, such as the Red Cross Society, to obtain the protection provided by the Geneva Convention of 1929. The Convention in question provides that such personnel, if subject to military law and regulations, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances and shall not, if they fall into the hands of an enemy, be treated as prisoners of war. Sections mentioned, therefore, provide for their being subject to military law when accompanying the troops on active service and, in addition, ensure that personnel who accompany the troops on active service as motor drivers or otherwise as civilian auxiliaries shall be subject to military law.

Section 58, which provides for the restriction of recruitment for foreign armies and prohibits the publication of recruiting advertisements for such forces in papers printed within the State is considered essential, having regard to this country's status of neutrality.

Of the remaining sections of the Bill, the majority provide for the simplification of administrative procedure. Sub-section 15 (b) and sub-section 16 (c), taken in conjunction with Section 25, will enable persons to be directly commissioned to and directly enlisted in the Reserve. Hitherto, it has been necessary that persons whom it is desired to commission as officers of the Reserve or Volunteer Force should first be commissioned in the Regular Forces for one day and retire therefrom. Similarly, persons enlisting for Volunteer Force Service have had to be enlisted in the Forces for one day and then transferred to the Reserve. The oaths which will be taken by officers directly commissioned to and men directly enlisted in the Reserve are set out in the Third and Fifth Schedules respectively.

Section 49 will amend existing legislation which permits an officer, if charged with an offence, to elect to be tried by court-martial as an alternative to being dealt with summarily. It is desirable that, where an offence is of a trivial nature, it should be possible to dispose of it summarily, thus obviating the expense, delay and inconvenience of a court-martial.

Section 54 simplifies the procedure regarding the transfer of absentees or deserters to military custody by the Gárda Síochána. Hitherto, it has been necessary for the Gárdaí to bring a person suspected of being an absentee or deserter before a district justice, a procedure which in many cases caused some delay. In addition, various descriptive returns had to be furnished by the Gárdaí to the military authorities in connection with such persons. It is now being provided that absentees or deserters may be brought before a peace commissioner, which will eliminate the delay. The furnishing of returns, which was generally unnecessary, is being discontinued.

Mr. M. Hayes

May I ask the Minister whether there is any provision in the Bill for the duration of this Act when it becomes law? It amends Acts which are annual Acts. How long will this Act have force when it becomes law?

Mr. Traynor

I would say during the period of emergency, and such clauses as it might be deemed necessary to put into the Defence Forces Act proper would, of course, be transferred thereto.

Mr. Hayes

It does not seem to be clear anywhere that that is the case. I read Section 4 very carefully to try to make that out. The Principal Act is an annual Act. If you pass a temporary Act it has to be renewed annually. This is an amendment to that Act. There is nothing that I can find which says when it ends or can be brought to an end by any proclamation. It would certainly be absurd for the Government to declare that an emergency exists if this Act could not be continued. Is that the case?

Mr. Fitzgerald

The Principal Act of 1923 is a temporary Act and is renewed every year. It has been renewed this year. Occasionally some change has been made in the amending Act which then becomes part and substance of the Principal Act. As far as I know this is called the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Bill. Is it really an amendment of the Principal Act and when passed will the new part of the Principal Act contain all that is contained in this? If that were the case within 12 months we will be renewing the Principal Act. When it comes up for renewal it will simply be renewed and the renewal would contain what is in this Bill. If next year you come along and renew the No. 2 Act then you do not renew the main Act. On the other hand, if you renew the main Act, you do not necessarily renew this Bill.

Mr. Douglas

It does not seem to me that this Bill would require any renewal. It is important to have that point cleared up before the debate. It appears to me as if this Bill would be useless without the Act that has already been passed this year. The other creates the Army, and if there were no Army this Bill would be useless. That is purely a technical point. The two should be connected and renewed together. I may mention that these criticisms are not obstructive.

Mr. Traynor

This Bill amends the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts of 1933 to 1940 and will have to come up annually in conjunction with other Acts.

Mr. Hayes

In a continuing Bill.

The McGillycuddy of the Reeks

Although we all welcome the fact that preparations are being made to defend our country, the situation appears to me to be so urgent judging by the Taoiseach's words, that the steps that have been taken since Saturday last are apparently inadequate. I think it would be very much wiser if powers had been taken over persons and property, as has been done elsewhere, and if a selection was then made of all men who had experience either of war or of the use of arms to form the nucleus of our local defence organisation, and to strengthen the volunteer and regular units which are being formed. A full week has passed, and although there has been a considerable response in many districts at any rate to the drive for the regular Army and for the volunteers, there is not yet one single local defence unit in being. The lethargy in some country districts is almost incredible, due to the fact that the urgency of the matter has not been realised. Speeches have been published in the newspapers but appeals are really useless or, if not entirely useless, do not meet this very urgent situation at the present time. We have in this country organisations in the shape of elected bodies and local authorities and above all the clergy who, if joined together, could get these units into being in a very short time.

I believe that the mass of opinion in this country supports what I have said, that the overriding consideration in any scheme of defence at the present time is the formation, in every small town and in every district, of local defence units for the purposes of observation, and particularly for the security and guarding of our communications. Without the latter the regular Army in an emergency would be entirely at sea. It would have no information and would not be able to act in the spheres required. I do not think that arms need be immediately issued to any of these units, but I urge the Minister in every possible way to give a lead to the country. It wants a lead. Above all, local authorities and local bodies want a lead to get these units into being. I repeat that what I have said is supported in the strongest way by military opinion in our regular Army.

The speed with which events take place in this war is evident to everybody, and if there is any reason for the Taoiseach's words of last week—"immediate and imminent," and that it is "a matter of days, not weeks"— we have only ourselves to blame if we are found unprepared and invaded. If we found ourselves faced with an enormous loss of human life, improvisations would be useless to protect our country. If any of these local defence units—which, I suggest, should be formed immediately—are found to be inadequate or to require improvement, that can be done by the military authorities without very much difficulty. The essential thing is to get them into being at once. This can only be done by local effort and local leadership. It cannot be done by sitting still here and expecting people to act without lead of any sort or kind. No doubt, attempts may be made on objects, such as the big cities and towns, but it is more than likely that —at the same time or even prior to the attacks on the bigger centres— attacks will be made on isolated districts where no interference—under present circumstances, at any rate— need be expected. Progress can be made, despondency and alarm can be carried, by rumour and in other ways, to the larger centres of population. It is for that reason that I urge, again and again, that these local units be brought into being at once.

If the Minister listens in any way to the very grave words I am trying to impress on him and on the House, and takes action upon them, then at the earliest possible moment some general instructions should be issued to those various bodies who are going to form the units, to guide them, to prevent confusion and want of knowledge in the actual duties which the local defence units are to carry out. As soon as that is done and reports of progress are being made, further instructions should go out describing the contacts and supervision which will be exercised by the military and Civic Guards in the carrying out of those duties in the various areas.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I presume we are going to pass this Bill to-day and that nobody would dream of impeding the passing of it, as the Government sets it forth as something which is needed. Like Senator The McGillycuddy, I would rather see greater power taken, and I take this opportunity on the Second Reading to ask one or two questions. For instance, in Section 21, the oath to be taken is changed from that amended oath, which was, I think, in the Defence Forces Act of 1937. I presume that there was some reason for that, upon which the Minister did not enlighten us when he was speaking. There is a minor point in the very last section—Section 58— of the Bill with reference to recruiting for other countries. My query is with regard to paragraph (c) of sub-section (1):—

"To publish or cause or procure to be published within the said area by such notice or advertisement as is mentioned in paragraph (b) of this sub-section which is printed within the said area."

I think it is the general rule of embassies and legations, when there is a state of emergency in another country and when troops are being called to the colours, to inform their nationals, who are bound to join up, if they belong to a conscript army. The word "publish" is the difficulty. I can understand that there should not be advertisements in public papers or placards on the walls, but I think it is the ordinary work of an embassy— in the case of a country where there is a conscript army—when the classes of men from 21 to 27 years of age are being called up, to inform their nationals who are due under that class. I should like to ask the Minister what the effect of the word "publish" would be in that case.

In regard to the Schedule dealing with punishments, when there is a state of emergency it is analogous to that condition which is known legally as "strained relations". We are not in a state of strained relations with any particular country, but the action we are taking is action which is proper to that condition known as strained relations, when one is mobilising forces, and so on. This Bill is intended to deal with that condition. In one particular Schedule—the Sixth Schedule— sentence of death can be imposed under items 1, 2 and 3. I am not going to go over every one of them, as the Minister may enlighten us in regard to the whole matter. In connection with "offences in relation to the enemy not punishable by death", the maximum penalty is penal servitude, and the first item— number 4—is "being employed on a State ship, the offence of negligently causing the capture or destruction by the enemy of such State ship". The word "negligently" comes in there. If an evil-minded man on a ship for the purpose of making an enemy country victorious over our country, wants to hand over that ship, it is almost impossible to prove what the man's intention is. One way of committing a crime is related in detective stories where one "accidentally" runs over one's victim instead of killing him otherwise. If you have a traitor on a ship, it does seem almost impossible to prevent him from taking steps of a negative nature to see that that ship falls into the hands of the enemy; and by this Bill the Government is legally prevented from imposing the penalty of death unless it can be proved that the act was not merely one of negligence.

In a time like this the Government must have extraordinary powers and I am very anxious to give them all the powers they need. It seems to be a bad thing to set out that the Government shall not have power to punish by death in the case I have mentioned. Further down in the schedules there are other cases, but the whole question turns on the word "negligently". Is the onus of proof going to be on the man, that it was through negligence, or is the onus of proof going to be on the State prosecuting, that the man did it criminally and with malice? That might easily be a very severe handicap to the Government. If the situation arises as is more or less envisaged in the Bill, one can only sentence to penal servitude. I think the minimum is three years, but suppose, instead of sentencing a man to three years' penal servitude, you sentence him to 300 years? His action in supporting the enemy in order to bring about an enemy victory was taken presumably because he hopes for that victory and he knows that the enemy will see that he is duly released and that it may be only a question of his suffering imprisonment for a month. In a case like that, the Government should take tremendous powers.

Where one of our ships is being handed over to the enemy through the action or culpable inaction of a man or of a member of a crew employed on the ship, there should be the penalty of death. When it comes to the possibility of negligence, the Government has power to impose any lesser punishment than death, where the Government may think there is grave doubt as to whether or not an action was done maliciously. It may have been done through the man's criminal carelessness and the Government have always the power to show mercy. Here, however, we are definitely putting a halter round the Government's neck. We are now making the Government responsible for the security of the country, yet they are most carefully limiting their powers in their own Bill, in such a way that it may be impossible for them to protect our people.

Mr. Goulding

Section 58 imposes restrictions on recruiting for other States. Travellers to the North of Ireland yesterday were rather surprised to find that a considerable body of young men who travelled to Belfast were met at the station there by two officers of a foreign State. If this section prevents any person actively inducing or persuading numbers of young men—who are now being asked to come forward in defence of this country—from joining the army of a foreign State, I think it will have a very good effect.

Mr. Fitzgerald

But it will not.

Mr. Goulding

Is there any secret organisation here recruiting men for service in a foreign State? If there is, I think this section should be put into force immediately to prevent it. The appeals which have been made in this country for the past few weeks, asking young men to come forward in defence of the State, have been fairly well answered but, on the whole, the response has not been as great as we would wish. It is certainly very strange to see that young men can leave this capital city to enlist in the service of another country already at war. It would be a very serious matter if— God forbid that it should happen—we should find ourselves at war with that State and have to fight against our own countrymen.

I should like some explanation with reference to the billeting regulations. Under the laws that formerly obtained in this country, all holders of licensed premises, by virtue of holding a licence, were compelled to billet military when they visited the district. If the occupant of the licensed premises could not provide accommodation himself, he was bound to procure it in the neighbourhood and to do practically all that is embraced in this section. I should like to ask the Minister if that holds at present in this country, or if the section will apply indiscriminately to all citizens of the country.

Mr. MacDermot

I should like to say a word in support of the Bill and of the policy behind the Bill and, in doing so, to make special reference to the position of such citizens of our State as, like myself, were in favour at the beginning of the war of this country's departing from a policy of neutrality and entering the war on the side of the Allies, not by sending an expeditionary force overseas but by putting our ports at the disposal of the Allied fleets and by giving such moral support as we could to the Allied cause. Nothing has happened to make me or others alter our views as to the wisdom of the advice we then gave to the country, but it was necessary to recognise, and I did myself openly recognise in this House, that whatever one might feel about the wisdom of that policy, however one might feel that Irish interests—not only spiritual interests, the ideals of democracy and so forth, but also material interests— were bound up with the fate of Great Britain; however one might feel that, in case of the defeat of Great Britain, our savings would be swept out of existence and the possibility of working profitably so as to accumulate more savings would also be swept out of existence—however strongly one felt these things, one had to admit that no other policy was practicable except neutrality. One could not blame the Government for that; at least one could not blame them for their actual behaviour at the outbreak of war. One might blame them for the general trend of the ideology they had been teaching the country for years past. However that might be, the fact was that you could not suddenly prepare the minds of the people of this country for entering the war on the side of Great Britain. That fact had to be recognised. There is no use in flogging a dead horse. Those of us who would like to see Ireland joining the war on the side of the Allies expressed our views at the beginning of the war and we have kept quiet about it since. Certainly this is not the moment to revive controversy on the subject.

What I want to say is this: there are three possible courses open to this country—to enter the war on the side of the Allies, to remain neutral as we have done, or to enter the war on the side of Germany. I should infinitely prefer that we should take any of these three courses, even the last, as a united nation, than that we should be torn internally by discord and that groups of Irishmen should speak of other Irishmen as renegades or traitors or that we should do anything to call in conflicting powers from outside to ally themselves with us in opposition to other groups in this country. The policy which the Government is adopting at the present juncture is one upon which the country can unite, and I, speaking as one who was against neutrality, wish to express my loyal adherence to the Government policy and my warmest wishes for its success. I fully agree that far the best chance of preserving ourselves from attack is to show the world that we are prepared to do our best to defend ourselves if we are attacked.

If I, or anybody else at the present time, were to go around the country making speeches against neutrality, the newspapers would not be allowed to publish what we said. I make no complaint of that. I think that in this grave hour it is perfectly proper, but there is another class of thing being said which at this moment is, I think, even more dangerous and, so far, there has been no interference by the censorship. I suggest that if this Bill is to be of any use, and if the policy behind the Bill is to be carried out effectively, the censorship ought to intervene to prevent the publication of matter advocating that the Irish people should not defend themselves against external attack. Nothing could be more damaging to the national effort than to allow that sort of propaganda to continue. I appeal to the Government very seriously to consider whether action cannot be taken in that regard.

I do hope that we, all classes of the community, will work to support Government policy and do our best to promote goodwill amongst our people. I have heard a good deal of criticism of the Government from a class of the community which is more numerous than one would suppose from its representation in the Houses of Parliament, the class of the community which has sons, brothers and near relations fighting in the British Forces. Now, that is inevitable. Senator Goulding has referred to the fact that there are Irishmen in what he calls the service of a foreign Power. That is not a thing that ought to be allowed to excite bitter feelings. The terminology "foreign Power" gives a shock to a great many of us in this country who take a different view from the majority in this House about historical events and about our relations with the British Commonwealth, but these things ought not to be allowed to excite unnecessary division and hard feelings between us. I think that all we Irishmen ought to be able, at any rate, to unite on this: that our first duty is to our own country, and our first duty to our own country is to stand behind the Government and Government policy at such a juncture as the present. I have no fear that the situation will arise, which was alluded to by Senator Goulding, in which Irishmen would be compelled to fire on other Irishmen. I feel complete confidence that our neutrality will be respected by the British. I feel complete confidence that the realisation will spread in this country that the ruin of Great Britain would mean our ruin too, and I also feel confident that the realisation will spread that, in pursuing our own interests, we shall be pursuing the interests of Northern Ireland, and that Northern Ireland, in pursuing its own interests, will be pursuing our interests. In spite of all the horrors of these times I do feel a very real hope that one of the results of all the efforts we shall be called upon to make during the coming months may be a drawing together between us and our separated brethren in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Crosbie

It is not often, Sir, that I find myself in agreement with Senator MacDermot, and even now I do not find myself in complete agreement with the Senator, but I do find myself in complete and absolute agreement with him on one thing that he said in the course of his very excellent speech; and that is with regard to the rather subversive propaganda that is going around, that this country is too small and too poor to defend itself against invasion. It has from time to time been quite openly stated that in the event of invasion we should imitate Denmark. That is a policy to which I, although I am personally a most peace-loving person, cannot subscribe, and I do not think that any Irishman, worthy of the name of Irishman, could subscribe to it for one moment. I am very glad that the Senator referred to it and I trust that the Minister will take the necessary steps to see that such propaganda is dealt with adequately under the censorship and under the various new powers that the Government are taking to themselves.

Now, this is no time for criticism, and I do not intend to criticise this Bill or to delay it in any way. There is just one thing to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. Senator The McGillycuddy pointed out that there was a certain amount of lethargy existing in certain parts of the country as regards recruiting. It may be necessary, therefore, that the recruiting drive will have to be intensified and that such efforts as Senator The McGillycuddy suggested will have to be adopted; that recruiting meetings will have to be held, addressed by clergy, by local bodies and, possibly, by members of the Legislature. Now, it is with regard to members of the Legislature that I want to draw the Minister's attention. It is not the Minister's fault, nor is it the fault of his Government—I think his Government inherited it from a previous Government—but I understand that a law exists whereby it is impossible for a member of the Legislature of this country to become a member of the Defence Forces of this country and vice versa. I also understand that in this particular case of the present emergency the Government are not anxious to enlist members of the Legislature, although I see by to-day's papers that several members have already handed in their names. Now, I for one am not prepared to address a recruiting meeting in any part of this country and to ask young men to do something that I am not prepared to do myself. If such a state of affairs as I have outlined exists, then I think the Minister ought to suspend that law for the duration of the present emergency. It is surely a strange parallel that members of the Legislature are not considered worthy to take part in the defence of their country, or, vice versa, that members of the Defence Forces of this country are not considered worthy to become members of the Legislature.

I would, therefore, ask the Minister to consider seriously the suspension of that prohibition—if necessary, to bring in a short amendment to the Constitution. The situation at the moment, as I see it, is this. Probably, most members of both Houses would not be fit to serve. I can only visualise my duty as a soldier as one in which I might be more of a menace to my friends than to the enemy, but that is not for me to decide; that is for the Government to decide. As I see it, the duty of every Irishman at the moment is simply to serve, and to serve in whatever capacity the proper authorities think he is best fitted to serve.

Mr. Robinson

There is one small matter to which I should like to refer, and that is, that I believe that part of the lethargy in the country districts, which is obvious to everybody, has been occasioned by the fact that so many of the country people are engaged in agriculture and they are afraid that, if they join the Local Security Force, it would interfere, in some way or other, with their agricultural work. I am surprised that some statement has not been issued up to now to warn these people that joining the Local Security Force would in no way interfere with the equally important task of providing food and fuel for the winter. I would ask the Minister, either from himself or from whatever is the appropriate Department, to have some statement issued as rapidly as possible, conveying to people who are engaged in agriculture that, under no circumstances, will their work be in any way interfered with if they join the Local Security Force. I believe that that is keeping very large numbers of people from joining.

Another thing that is militating against these people joining up is the fact that no information, or at least no real information, up to now has been given as to what the duties of the Local Security Force will be. There are large numbers of people who have been told, and who believe, that if they once join it they will then be pounced upon and put into the Army. I should have thought that, if I and other people like myself know of these things, the Government and the Defence Conference would be aware of them also, and that statements would have been made so as to counteract opinions and rumours of that kind. I think that even if it is not possible for the Defence Conference or whoever is responsible, within a week of the Taoiseach's announcement that it was a matter of days when we might be attacked, to get out a definite statement as to what we are expected to do, at least they should get out a statement of what classes of work should not be interfered with under any circumstances and also a statement allaying certain fears that have arisen in the minds of some young men.

Mr. McGee

I do not intend to delay the House. When I was coming up the stairs it was suggested to me that it would be almost impossible to get a belt for me. I do not desire to go too deeply into active service. Anything I would say would be rather in the nature of help to the Administration. I have been advised that there are some questions in relation to some ex-officers and ex-National Army men throughout the country that have not been sufficiently cleared up. Some of these trained men, who would be quite willing to be active, believe that there has not been sufficient way left open to them to come in on something like the status which they formerly held in the Army. I am not prepared to accept what Senator Robinson says as to agriculture being an impediment to recruiting. I do not believe that agriculture has been a means of preventing citizens from joining the Local Security Force. Listening to Senator The McGillycuddy, I thought that he was perhaps on the right road. I suppose we are facing the greatest menace since 1918 and I think the State would be fully justified in adopting an exact procedure, similar in every detail to that which was taken at that time, when all of us were called upon, outside the church doors, to offer our services and to state what steps we were prepared to take in the emergency. There is only one course to follow and that is for Ireland. If what Senator Goulding says is new to him, it certainly is not new to me. Two or three years ago, I think, Mr. Art O'Connor, ex-President of the Republic, a great friend of mine, was going to the Sessions in Dundalk. When he got outside Balbriggan, two young boys asked him for a lift. They advised him that they were going to enlist. Mr. O'Connor, quite cheerfully, took them to Dundalk and asked them could he drive them to the barrack. They said, "I do not think you can. Are you not going to the Sessions? We are going to Armagh to join the King's Own." The President of the Republic was rather abashed.

Mr. M. Hayes

He was ex-President then.

Mr. McGee

Yes. There is a feeling in some parts of the country that the Gárda may not have that support behind them which a national force should have. Sometimes the lethargy and apathy that obtain in the citizens may emanate from the Gárdaí. I think the Government do encourage the Gárdaí to do their duty fearlessly to every citizen in the land. I believe in giving fair play to everybody and fair play to the Gárdaí. I have heard suggestions that the Government should have gone further and armed the Gárdaí. I do not wish to delay the House on what is a very essential matter any further. I am speaking rather as a representative citizen who will do his part in anything that the Government calls on him to do and I ask nobody to go any further than I am able to go myself. Great men like Napoleon said that armies marched on more things than their feet. As far as I am concerned, I am prepared to do anything the Government asks me to do. I think the Government should give a lead. I am not satisfied that the strength of this conference that is meeting is sufficient to outweigh what is the growth not even of the past generation or two but a very old growth. I think that there should be on this conference that is meeting—all honour to them and the spirit that brought them into being —representatives of the very class which Senator Goulding possibly met going to Belfast. The Government have everything at their disposal and they have every power that the land can give them. When a person has great control the best way he can hold it and the most effective way is by being exceedingly generous, particularly with those with whom he may not see eye to eye at all times. We should impress on every citizen that Ireland belongs to us all and in that way better results might be attained.

Mr. Honan

There have been many points raised in connection with the reluctance of the young men in joining the forces as required at the present day. I have been in touch with a great number of young men in the country and their only regret is that the Government did not take powers to compel every young man to register himself as fit for service when and where required. There is quite a number of young men who are very patriotic and who have the very least to fight for—sons of very small farmers and workmen's sons, and they say that there should be an equality of responsibility and citizenship, that while they have to leave their work or their small farms their friends next door, who are in a much better way in land, in business and industry, can remain at home and mind their work. It is the feeling that there should be equal responsibility placed on all and that if one section of the community are anxious and willing to join up, those who have more to fight for and more to defend than they have should also be called on to do their duty.

Mrs. Concannon

The first call has been for man-power and, perhaps, that has given a rather one-sided view to the way in which the country should respond to the emergency. I think that the way we ought to look on it is as people who are getting ready a city that might be beleaguered, who have to look not only to the defenders but also to the provisioning of the garrison. You must look to the internal arrangements. I daresay that that has not been neglected by the Government and their advisers, but it seems to me that it would be very useful in clarifying the whole situation if we could get a statement from the Defence Conference as to how the country should get itself ready. I think that could be done without any alarm. I think that Senator Robinson suggested that some young men were afraid to give their-names to the Defence Forces because they might be taken from agriculture. We have to realise that their work in providing food supplies is urgent and necessary. In Galway and other places we have not had brought home to us the urgent necessity of getting an adequate fuel supply. That is all part of this Defence Conference. It ought to consider all the questions. I put that only in the broadest and baldest way, but it is an aspect of the whole situation that should not be overlooked. A statement from the Defence Conference would, I think, be timely and welcome.

Mr. Baxter

There is general agreement that this Bill must be passed. There is, I think, a certain amount of apprehension that this Bill is not going to give the country enough in the present emergency, that is if the emergency is of the character which the Taoiseach and a number of other people appear to believe it to be. We are either serious about defending our country and keeping it for ourselves because our homes are in it and because our homes are sacred to us, or we are not. If we mean to defend it, we cannot be half-hearted about it. If you are going out to fight, you must make up your minds that you may be killed. When starting out, we may as well be clear about what the end is likely to be rather than to go out in a hazy and indecisive mood. If you go out in that frame of mind you are not going to be any use as a soldier.

The feeling of a number of us for some weeks past is that there has not been enough energy put into the effort to get our people organised for defence, and, so far as my experience goes, if we were about to have a general election, there would be much more work and much more enthusiasm. If one considers the serious aspect of this matter, that must make one very unhappy. This Bill gives powers to the Government to regulate the conditions under which men are to serve in the armed forces, to impose penalties and so on, but, in my judgment, the armed forces, by themselves, will not be sufficient to defend this State and to throw up the sort of defence which we are capable of throwing up against any invader. The armed forces alone will not be enough, and what we must concentrate on is the construction of a plan to preserve the whole life of the State and everything within it. To me, at any rate, this Bill is not sufficient at all. It does not provide the powers necessary to do all the things we have to do. If we have to do these things, everything must be done in an orderly way, and whatever we are going to do must have a relation to something else which you are going to do, and even to the things which are being left undone. If you disturb certain things, you must look to the things which you are leaving undisturbed and see the effect of one on the other.

With regard to the possibility of getting recruits for the Army, the Government and the Defence Conference, in so far as they are making suggestions, ought to be quite clear on what they are aiming at. If we are going to be up against a situation in which this period of emergency is going to endure for a fairly long time, as may very well be the case—perhaps stretching over years—you have to regulate your economic life in relation to your military effort, and in attempting to get recruits for the Army, I think we must ask ourselves from what walks of life are we to draw them. I know a few people who have joined up and who have offered their services, and I think nothing would be more disastrous from the point of view of our capacity to withstand the attack of an invader than to draw our people away from those sources of production essential to the life of our people and to our military forces. That has to be taken into account in relation to the effort to obtain recruits. That is the first and a very important point.

It seems to me that farmers and farmers' sons, in the conditions of agriculture at the moment, and in view of its importance to our whole life, should be the last to be drawn into our military forces. I am not saying they would be the worst. On the contrary, I am quite convinced, from our experience of the past, that they would be the best. They would be tough and they would do their job, and if they go in, that is what they mean to do. I think that aspect of it ought to be carefully considered. I have suggested already that the energy and vigour necessary to organise our people has not yet been shown and, while the Minister and others of his colleagues have spoken on the situation over the radio, I suggest that he should invite others of the Defence Conference to speak also. I think it would have a very exhilarating effect on a great many people. The Taoiseach, the Minister and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures have spoken on the radio and so far so good, but much more is necessary. I agree with Senator The McGillycuddy that it is necessary to utilise all the powers, all the organisations and all the energies of the State which are at our command to stir our people to a consciousness of the dangers that are abroad.

The McGillycuddy

And at once.

Mr. Baxter

The British Government, when the invader was almost at their door, took extraordinary powers, and there the people have yielded up their lives, their property, their money and their industries to the State. I am sure that we would do the same thing. When those who were in the Volunteers in the past were being attacked, the people gave us succour and all the assistance they could, but it was only when we were attacked that we got it. Possibly the same situation would arise to-day, but we ought not to wait for an attack to organise all our defence forces, and every instrument, every individual, every organisation which you can pull into the service of the State to get our people organised for its defence, because their homes and their entire spiritual and material existence are at stake if we are attacked. All these forces ought to be called into effect at once and not a moment should be lost in doing so.

The force of example in this country is very important and I should like to know what is happening in this regard in the Civil Service. We have an immense Civil Service. I do not know what relation it bears to our total population compared with other countries, but I have been asking myself how many members of the Civil Service, the people who are actually getting their living from the existence of the State, have had a chance up to the present of offering their services in any capacity to the State. What opportunities are they being given to offer their services? The Government must cut here and must cut there, and some of our services will probably be dislocated. If there is an invasion, all our services will be very considerably dislocated, just as will our economic life, and I think it would make a great difference in Dublin and in other cities, where there is a considerable number of State servants, if liberty were given to these people to offer their services and to show that they were prepared to serve the State from which they were getting their livings. Similarly, I suggest that local authorities should be communicated with as soon as the Minister gets this measure through and told what their responsibilities are to members of their staffs who are prepared to offer their services. Those are steps which might be taken and which would have an influence on local opinion. If you get a certain number of people moving in that direction locally, some of the apathy of which we have experience, in our country districts, anyhow, would be dissipated.

Senator MacDermot spoke about the type of stuff which has been published. I have not seen any publication of any such matter as that, suggesting that we are too small, too weak, too poor or too insignificant to fight, but I have heard that kind of talk.

Mr. MacDermot

I can show articles to the Senator.

Mr. Baxter

That is all wrong, and it ought to be met everywhere it is heard. I do not know how you are going to meet it, but if the emergency grows, as is anticipated, you will have to meet it with very stern measures, because nothing can be more disastrous in this country, where we can be particularly cynical and where there is every reason and justification for a good deal of cynicism, and nothing goes further to undermine the character and capacity of our people to do work than that sort of cynicism and criticism, and that attitude that we are helpless to do anything, that it is not worth doing anything and that because so-and-so happened, it ought not to be done.

Mr. MacDermot

It is not only a matter of the effect here, but of the effect on foreign opinion.

Mr. Baxter

I am thinking about the effect on opinion at home, because I am convinced that if we could mobilise all our resources, physical, mental, economic and spiritual, as I believe they could be mobilised, and have all our people catalogued as being ready to give various kinds of service, and if we could get them moving together, we could be a tough enough proposition for any outsiders, as we were before. We are not too easily beaten when we are stirred up to fight. The trouble in the past was that we were not too well prepared when we had to fight.

We may be further away from this crisis than some people believe and we may be much nearer to it than others believe. We must go on as quickly as we can get ready all our forces. I do not think that the Army alone, with the people outside wondering what they are going to do and whether it is worth doing or not, is going to be as effective as if we had all our people organised—men and women. If we had all our men and women—and, particularly, the women because the women were a great deal better than the men —organised behind our Army, the position would be much better. The people fought before with their bare hands and Padraic Pearse spoke about it. If an invader came to-morrow, many people would be prepared to do the same thing but they ought not to be asked to do it. Neither should any man have to fight unpaid or give his services unrequited. Even if this were done, it would not be ample. We want something more. We want a stirring of our spirit of patriotism which has been flattened out by many things which ought not to have happened. These things we can forget in the present crisis. I agree with Senator The McGillycuddy that much more must be done than has been done. I suggest that the radio be used on every possible occasion in order to call to the service of the State every responsible citizen who has served in the past and who is willing to serve in the present. Let us not think that this is a task for the Government alone. It is a task for all the citizens and the voice of every man who can bring ten men to the colours should be heard throughout the length and breadth of the country.

Mr. Corkery

The response to the call on behalf of the Defence Forces has come principally from the Old I.R.A. It has been a magnificent response but, unfortunately, the response from the young men has not been anything like what it should be. Recently, I was informed that some of the young men sneered at the old men who were going to defend them. A good many say: "Why should I join up; So-and-so has a greater stake in the country than I have and he has never done anything for it yet; he spends his evening playing golf and will continue to do that while we are fighting." You have that spirit everywhere—in the south, at all events. To my mind, there is only one way in which the country can be defended by all its citizens; everybody in the country should be registered. That should be made compulsory. For the men who are not fit to fight, or who are not inclined to fight, there is plenty of other work— there is turf to be cut, hay to be saved and grain to be threshed. I believe we could find work for all our people in that way. We could also train an army. There may be difficulties in doing that but we were faced with all those difficulties over 20 years ago. Men were then trained in the use of a rifle in a very short time. I believe we have plenty of instructors and that our young men could be trained locally. They could be trained on one or two days a week in their own towns or villages.

It may take some time to train a regular soldier but the volunteer can be trained in the use of a rifle—the only weapon he is likely to have a chance of using if we are invaded—in a week, or a couple of weeks at most. Most of our young people are used to firearms. If we are serious—and I know the Government are serious—we should not wait for public meetings or anything else. The one way to do the thing is to use compulsion and get every man to register. Compulsory training does not sound well to the people nor does compulsion in any form but, in a crisis like this, we should not mind what the people think. We should do our best for the people, and the best we can do for them is to train them to defend themselves and their country.

Mr. Douglas

The Bill before us has been put forward with a certain amount of haste. It is clearly a Bill that no responsible Parliament would be prepared to withhold from the Executive of the day. Because of considerations of time, it is not practical politics for us seriously to criticise it. On Committee Stage, suggestions may be made. If they are, it will probably be impracticable to introduce them into the Bill. Nevertheless, they should be made—if only for the purpose of drawing attention to probable difficulties. That would be peculiarly the case, if this Bill is to be tacked on to the general Defence Forces Act and the two Bills renewed together when the time comes. That, I think, is the Minister's view. There is, I think, a flaw in that procedure, but it can be righted afterwards, if necessary.

The debate has been largely of a general character. This was, more or less, inevitable because of the circumstances. It seems to me it was always the duty of citizens to be ready to serve the community or the nation or the State of which they were a part. That is not a new thing which we should suddenly be discovering in the last two or three weeks. It may be that the period of emergency or crisis was extremely useful if it has made a large number of people discover how extraordinarily unimportant political and other controversy can be when more serious matters arise. I am not prepared to side with those Senators who are criticising the Government because they have not taken more drastic powers. They may have to come and ask for further powers, for all I know, but this is a hasty measure and we should be very careful before we criticise the Government for not seeking more drastic powers.

We must remember, too, that we have not reached the stage in this country of having a national Government. That being the case it may not be wise—at all events for some time— to ask for more drastic powers over the individual. Most countries, whether at war or neutral, have had to ask for very drastic powers but, in most cases, the members of the Parliaments have had to come very close together and be very sure that they had eliminated almost all the points of serious difference, so that the Government, when using the extremely drastic powers they possessed, knew they had the community completely behind them—or, at any rate, that the overwhelming majority was behind them. To achieve that, you must have all sections behind the Government and by "all sections" I do not mean the two principal Parties. I think that Labour is an extremely important part of the community. There are a lot of minorities who have not fully realised— the will is there but not the full realisation—that Ireland is theirs and that they have a part to play in it.

I should also like to say, partly because I have a somewhat different point of view, through my religious convictions, to some other members here, that it is perhaps inevitable that there should be great emphasis on the need for giving armed assistance to the State. But it is not the only way in which the country can be helped, and it is not the only way in which the country can help to maintain its neutrality. I would like to see a council, small but representative—a conference, if you like—giving assistance to the Government on economic matters, which may be just as important, in their own way, as any military service. To maintain supplies during a period of emergency, to have those supplies all over the country, to keep up the stocks of shopkeepers, of farmers and others who require them—all of that is an economic matter, and we have been far too used in this connection to depend on the Government to do everything for us. If we could get into the minds of the people that every man has his job to do and that the man who, perhaps, takes some financial interest in maintaining supplies of important things in the country may be doing his part in the maintenance of this country and its neutrality, just as much as the man who joins up, it would be an important step.

There are many thousands of ways in which help can be given, but I think we have got, even to a greater extent than at the present moment, to get our minds completely away from ordinary Party politics—and by that I mean not merely criticism of the other side, but the claiming of things for ourselves that others might disagree with, which possibly might be another form of criticism. We should endeavour to see whether, by joint action, we could bring in people, many of whom might be extremely important and of great influence, people who are not in politics, and so try to secure a united effort in getting into the minds of the people that they can help in the maintenance of this State and in the maintenance of its neutrality. I think it is extremely important, as soon as the present effort has been made to get recruits— a matter which the Government think is of great and immediate importance —that some economic conference such as I have suggested, or possibly a conference on a wider scale should be established, and that there should be some kind of an accepted statement as to the kind of work which it is important for every man and woman to undertake, apart from those who join the Army.

There is at the moment very little lead, perhaps I might say there is no lead, so far as that is concerned, and people are very much puzzled as to what they should do. These things form part and parcel of what should be a great national effort. I have some knowledge of the country but, of course, I have not anything like the wide knowledge that some people here have. I meet a great many people, such as commercial travellers and others, who have a pretty good idea of what the people are saying, and I think, probably to a greater extent than for a long time, the minds of the people are open to a national effort and I am sure there would be a great response.

While I am not to be taken as opposing this Bill, I think that it should be followed by some action which would mobilise the nation and not simply the armed forces. I rather gathered from the Minister's speech that it was the intention in this Bill to provide that men who were recruited for the period of the emergency should be reinstated in their employment as far as is in any way practicable. I think the Bill goes further and it provides, as regards the recruits for the Regular Army, that they also shall be reinstated. I am not sure that that is practicable. From the point of view of the employer who has his business, it does not much matter; it is more a matter for those who may be taking the other person's job and who, after a long time, might find a claim made in regard to that job. Reading the subtitles at the side of the various paragraphs in the Bill, it would seem as if it was only for the period of the emergency, but when I read the Section I find it goes further. I merely raise that point; it cannot be amended now. I am pretty sure the intention was right, but it would help to get fuller co-operation if that point were made more clear.

My point is not by any means a critical one. It is only meant to suggest that it might be better to have the matter made more clear. I have had several questions raised already in regard to it, including one from the Chamber of Commerce. I do not think any reasonable person could possibly object. I would go further. I would hope that if there were other services in addition to military service which might be necessary—and it might be necessary to demand the moving of people from one job to another—then I would be prepared to go so far as was economically possible, and I would do it in my own employment. I would reinstate the men and I would frankly tell those who took their places that that was the position. I think there should be a month or some short period from the time a man would leave the Army until he was reinstated. That would not be in the interest of the employer, but rather of the men or women who would be taking the places of those men in the meantime.

I am a little puzzled with regard to the oath. The oath provides:

"...I will not join or be a member of or subscribe to any organisation without due permission."

That, I presume, would mean that a man should resign from any organisation to which he belongs. It seems to me that that oath, as it stands, is not a very satisfactory one. In the first place, most of the religious bodies are organisations, and that may, perhaps, be carrying it to an absurdity, but I do not quite know what is meant. The way this oath is worded, it seems to be anything but clear. Most people, at any rate, ought to belong to a religious organisation. This does not apply when you come to the men in the Reserve, but they cannot belong to a secret organisation. I must ask the Minister to consider whether that is really as clear as it ought to be.

Mr. Counihan

I am in agreement with the statements made by most of the speakers here. I think the Defence Council which has been set up has done a good deal to take this question out of the region of Party politics, but it has not done enough. There is a terrible amount of apathy among the citizens with regard to their duty in joining up and helping in the defence of the country. I would like to give as an example some of my own employees to whom I have spoken on the question. I told them I was joining up and that my son was joining up and that we were prepared to take any job that we were offered. The reply was that we had something to lose and that they had nothing, and they would not join any force; that it was just getting them in as a sort of trap to put them into the Army or, perhaps, send them across to fight in France or in some other country. If something is not done to allay that feeling and to compel the whole population to give service in some way, I am afraid there will be very little response to the appeal made by the Minister for Defence, the Taoiseach and others.

A suggestion was made—I think it was by Senator Corkery—with which I quite agree. If there is not a response to their appeal, I think it is the duty of the Government to get every citizen to register and to put them at any work they consider them fit for in order to defend this country and preserve its neutrality. Senator McGee referred to statements made to him by ex-officers to the effect that they would join up if they got suitable employment. I do not agree with those statements, because I think that anybody who joins up, whether he be an ex-officer, a general or anything else should do so in the ordinary way.

Mr. McGee

On a point of order, I made no such statement as that attributed to me by Senator Counihan.

Mr. Counihan

Well, at any rate, I do not agree that there should be any particular jobs for people joining up. Let all join up in the one way, and then the authorities can allot to them the duties for which they are found most suitable. I am in thorough agreement with Senator Douglas about the setting up of an economic council. We have to thank God that we are likely to have what promises to be a most prosperous harvest this year. It will take time and money to harvest those crops. That is a matter that an economic council might consider, because in my opinion it would not be wise to take a big percentage of our agricultural workers off the land. Men can help in the defence of the country by producing food just as much as by joining the Defence Forces. The point is an important one and the Government should consider it.

Mr. MacDermot

It is to be hoped that they have considered it without any such conference or council. Surely the Department of Supplies and the Department of Agriculture have already given consideration to these problems?

Dr. Doyle

I wish to emphasise what Senator Crosbie has said. In response to the Minister's appeal made on Friday last, and realising the seriousness of the situation, I handed in my name to serve in the Army Medical Service. The way that I felt about it was that I would not ask, or encourage anybody, to join the Army unless I was prepared to do so myself. I see by this morning's newspapers that other Senators and members of the Dáil have also handed in their names, indicating their readiness to serve. I believe that a member of the Seanad is actually serving in the Volunteer force, and has been so serving for some months. Senators and members of the Dáil now find that they are debarred from serving in the Army due to the existence of a statute that was passed for normal times. I believe it would be perfectly right to have such a statute in force during normal times so that members of the Dáil and Seanad could not at the same time be members of the Army. This, however, is a period of emergency. I think there should be some amendment of that statute so that the present position could be rectified, and that Senators or members of the Dáil who are of military age and ready to serve should be allowed to do so. In that way they would be giving an example to others.

Mr. Traynor

I will deal with the points as they were raised in the debate. Senator Fitzgerald was concerned about the oath. The oath for the regular soldiers has not been changed. The new oath, in the Third and Fifth Schedules, is for persons directly commissioned to or directly enlisted in the Reserve, and refers only to secret societies. A reservist can join organisations other than secret societies. That also applies to the point that was raised by Senator Douglas. There is no limitation on any member of the forces joining an organisation if he so desires, except this, that he must secure the permission of the military authorities before doing so. That is only a matter of form.

Mr. MacDermot

Will that really be carried out? I suggest that it is really dangerous to put things into legislation which are not carried out, and become a dead letter. If a man, or an officer, rejoins the Army, how is he going to remember all the organisations that he may belong to, so that he may apply for permission?

Mr. Traynor

No difficulty has ever arisen in connection with that. It is not something new. It has been moving smoothly up to the present, and there is no reason to anticipate that any difficulty will arise now. Senator Fitzgerald also mentioned something about publishing documents. The ordinary mobilisation orders would not be affected in any sense.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I just referred to a definition of the word "publishing."

Mr. Traynor

As regards the onus of proving whether a man was guilty of treachery or not, it would be pretty difficult to do other than what we have done in this Bill. I think the Senator will find that the manner in which we can deal with that is covered in Nos. 1, 2 and 3 of the Schedule. There is always a difficulty in proving—it arose in the case of the raid on the Magazine Fort—whether a man did something deliberately, or through negligence or for some other reason, but I am certain that such matters can be dealt with under the Schedule to this Bill. The Schedule merely brings the marine and coast-watching service into line with the Army. We are substituting here the word "ship" for "plane" or for "armoured car." In actual fact, this is merely an addition to the regulations.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I think that the powers of the Government in regard to the death penalty should be extended in the present situation.

Mr. Traynor

On the other hand, some other Senator said that there was the danger of giving too much power to a Government, especially when it was not a national Government. There may be something in that, too.

Mr. Fitzgerald

You have to give power to a Government in a time of emergency. We, the Opposition, are urging you to take the power.

Mr. Traynor

Senator Goulding mentioned the question of recruiting. I do not see how we could deal with ordinary people who travel by train to Northern Ireland and who, when they arrive there, join the Forces of another State.

Mr. Goulding

These were met at the station by officers of foreign forces who came there.

Mr. M. Hayes

What station?

Mr. Goulding

Belfast. The men had travelled from the South of Ireland. Evidently preparations had been made to receive them. Therefore, there must have been collusion down here.

Mr. Traynor

There is nothing in the suggestion that there is collusion down here. If Senator Goulding was able to give us evidence that there was an organisation in this part of the country which was, in fact, recruiting individuals and organising them in such a way that they could be sent by train to another part of the country to enlist, then we would deal with the organisation that was doing that here in our territory, but we cannot deal with it in the manner referred to by the Senator just now. Senator Goulding mentioned the question of billeting. Here we are only taking a different type of power. We give power to the commander of a unit to billet his men wherever he so desires. If he arrives in a small village, or somewhere else, he has power immediately to billet his men in the most suitable location that will meet the case. Heretofore, if such a section arrived in a small village, they had to seek out the Gárda officer of a certain rank and until that officer was found it was impossible to billet the men. We think that is a very desirable power to give to the Army.

As regards civil servants, I am not sure that what I say is a correct statement, but, as far as I know, civil servants are not debarred from joining the Volunteer forces or the Local Security Guards should they so desire. But there are in the Civil Service large numbers of individuals who are essential. There are certain officers in the Civil Service and their removal from there would cause considerable embarrassment and dislocation. All these people, like the keymen in agriculture and in certain types of heavy industries and so on, will, in fact, be exempted and have been exempted already. As stated in the Dáil wherever it is brought to the attention of the military authorities that a man is essential for a particular type of industry there will be no difficulty in securing that that man will be exempted from service in the Army. That does not mean that he will not give other services beyond going on with his ordinary employment. Every individual in the State can give service in the Local Security units. I might tell some Senators who have been referring to the Security units, that these are a body that would be peculiarly suited to organisation or administration by the Gárda authorities themselves. The Army itself is not dealing with that group. That group is being dealt with by the Gárda in the local districts. It can easily be understood that these Local Security groups will be very far removed in some circumstances from military posts. If you take, for instance, the west of Ireland, there are areas there where, I am pretty certain, you would find these Local Security groups as far as 50 or 60 miles removed from a military post. It may be that we will establish military posts further west and close up those gaps that exist at the moment. For the present, at all events, it has been found advisable that these groups should be organised in Gárda districts. I take it that is the best possible thing.

I have received various offers from individuals and from groups deeming themselves to be organisations. In some of these letters which I have received from individuals they offer their services with a certain type of limitation. They make it clear in the course of their letters that they are prepared to fight in defence of this nation's rights against one particular belligerent. Others state that they are prepared to fight and do all they can against another belligerent. I would like to say, through the medium of this House, that that type of offer is no use whatever either from individuals or organisations. Every individual who offers his services in any capacity must be prepared to subordinate himself and his will to the will of the nation through the authorities which will be dealing with them. Unless that is accepted generally by individuals and organisations their services are useless.

Mr. MacDermot

Perhaps it might help the Minister if I intervene and say, speaking for such people as I can, that I thoroughly accept what he has said.

Mr. Traynor

There were other Senators who felt that the question of national registration should be gone into. It is quite possible that if events do not turn out in the way we would like—and I am not satisfied that the answer to the national call has been all it might be—other measures may have to be taken. It is true that very large numbers of men who might be described as veterans of the past wars have offered their services but the response from the youth of the country does not appear to be anything like what it should be. That is a very regrettable statement to have to make. It is quite possible that should not the response be better we shall have to consider the question of national registration and we might even have to go further. I would like that the response from the veterans should not be all from one section of the community—that is, that they should not all emanate from the old I.R.A. I would prefer to see a genuine national response from every Irishman who served in any military force and who feels that as an Irishman he is prepared to defend the rights of this nation of ours. I think it was Senator McGee who spoke about the question of having this thing done on the same lines as that on which the old anti-conscription campaign was carried out. That would be impossible. At that time people simply went in and signed a paper that they intended to do so-and-so, showing that they protested against the effort made to conscript them and that if some contingency arose they would do something else. Here we are asking people to enrol. Later, we will ask them to attest, and when attested they become portion of the Defence Forces of this nation subservient to any orders issued and prepared to take any action they may be called on to take.

I do not think that at the present moment the question of agricultural workers refusing to give their services has arisen. Large numbers of agricultural workers have offered their services already. The question is: how far we can use these individuals just now? There is the question of the production of essential foodstuffs. Those people are in many cases people whom it would be desirable to exempt from military services.

I agree with practically everything Senator Baxter has said. But I would like to remind him as Senator MacDermot has reminded the House in the matter of plans, that the public Departments have for years been preparing plans for reserving supplies of foodstuffs and reserving other supplies essential for the nation. They have not been waiting until this thing had suddenly fallen. No doubt more can be done than has been done up to the present, but there has been none of the spectacular in respect to these efforts. That is admitted. A volume of very quiet work has been accomplished up to now. The Army will be concerned with dealing with thousands and thousands of forms and segregating them into a type of units who will suit this, that or the other service. That is all done behind closed doors. It might perhaps be well, before we have even to consider the question of national registration or conscription or anything else, to go forward with more spectacular efforts for the securing of men for the Forces. However, that is something that can be very easily considered. I might also inform Senator Baxter that talks have been arranged on the wireless. In the near future other members of the Defence Advisory Body will be talking on the wireless. I think they will be talking this week, as a matter of fact. Of course, it is highly desirable that local authorities should give every encouragement to employees to give their services and recompense them in some way that would encourage them to give their services, but, of course, we have no power in that matter. Several bodies have already agreed to do that.

Mr. MacDermot

The Minister has not mentioned the possibility of enlisting the help of the Church—the clergy.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I do not think the Minister should.

Mr. Traynor

That is something that I would rather leave to the Church itself.

Mr. MacDermot

Senator The McGillycuddy raised the point.

Mr. Traynor

Yes. In regard to the point that Senator Douglas raised about employment, that will only apply for the period of the emergency. Outside the emergency period, a man in the regular Forces does not come within this at all. I think I have dealt with all the matters raised in the debate.

Mr. Crosbie

The Minister has not dealt with the disability of members of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Members of the Oireachtas can belong to the Reserve.

Mr. Hayes

Or the Volunteers.

Mr. Traynor

I do not think so.

Mr. Crosbie

Will Senator Fitzgerald read Section 57 of the Electoral Act, 1923?

Mr. Fitzgerald

I can quote a precedent for officers in the Army who retired and went on Reserve being members of the Oireachtas. During the time they were in the Reserve they were called up for a period and were under military law, but they had not to resign from the Dáil or Seanad.

Mr. Traynor

I am informed that under the Electoral Act, 1923, they are prohibited from joining the Forces.

Mr. Crosbie

That is my point.

Mr. Fitzgerald

In 1923 there was no Reserve Force.

Mr. Traynor

I will get some information and have the matter cleared up.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I can quote a precedent for the Minister.

Mr. Crosbie

That is desirable in view of the Minister's statement that the response from the younger section of the community has not been all that we all would desire and that it may be necessary to have a recruiting push. It certainly puts the younger members of the Legislature in a very embarrassing position if they have to say: "I cannot offer my services, because I am prohibited by Section 57 of the Electoral Act, 1923."

Mr. Traynor

I am aware, of course, from the Press this morning that several members of the Oireachtas have tendered their services. Of course, that does not mean that their services have been accepted—they may be. I will certainly have the matter cleared up.

Question put and agreed to.