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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Jun 1940

Vol. 24 No. 22

Appropriation Bill, 1940 (Certified Money Bill)—Committee and Final Stages.

Bill considered in Committee.
Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedules and Title agreed to.
Bill reported without recommendation.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

On the Fifth Stage of the Bill, Sir, I think we should congratulate the Minister. I have known him for a long time. He has very frequently been in luck. He has been in great luck last week with the Finance Bill and in great luck to-day with the Appropriation Bill, and I do not intend to keep him very much longer here. On the occasion of the Finance Bill last week, Senator Douglas, who, I think, must be in league with the Minister, raised the question of a national or coalition Government, and the Minister was delighted. A number of other people raised various points. Senator Baxter raised a considerable number of points with regard to our economic and financial situation at the present moment. Now, the Minister, in his reply on the Finance Bill, said not one single word about finance—not a single word about finance. He delivered himself of a very long homily on the excellences in various degrees of himself and his colleagues in the Government, but he did not say anything at all about our financial situation or about what precise steps the Government had taken, if any steps have been taken, about the various problems which, for example, Senator Baxter raised.

Now, to-day, Senator Sir John Keane began on A.R.P., and from A.R.P. he went on to lament the fact that our young people do not display the public spirit that they might display, and that they injure public property; and again the Minister was delighted. I have not heard—and I have heard a great many Ministerial answers in my time—anything more vague than the Minister's statement to-day on A.R.P. He told us that he had been against A.R.P. at first, and that he had stopped expenditure upon it, but that recently he had been converted to the view that more expenditure must be undertaken. With regard to how much, however, or in what directions, or by whom, or whether he would give the concessions which Senator Douglas spoke of, to business firms who make air-raid shelters for their employees or for the public, he said exactly nothing at all.

Now, Sir, one can only associate the complacency of the Minister—and in that complacency he finds himself in perfect agreement with Lord Craigavon in Belfast, and I am tempted to call it the smug complacency of the Minister with regard to the present situation— and the capacity of himself and his colleagues to handle it with incompetency. I am afraid that it is an indication of nothing else but incompetency. There was a good deal of nonsensical talk on the last occasion about Governments which have majorities. Nobody, or at least nobody on these benches, denies the right of a Government, legitimately elected, to govern, and I for one am prepared to give it every single thing to which it is entitled, and all the assistance in my power; but no matter how much assistance I give it, I cannot give it confidence if, in fact, I have not got confidence in it. It is worth while telling the Minister and some of the Senators who spoke on his side on the last occasion, that, in the last election, and before the war and before the present emergency, out of more than 1,250,000 votes cast, this Government's majority was less than 50,000 votes. It is, therefore, true that when you meet 13 voters on the street, six of them are against the Government, had no confidence in it in 1938, and I think have not yet any confidence in it. Certainly, they have got no reason to have confidence in it, as a result of any of the recent happenings, and particularly as a result of some of the speeches made here. So much for that.

On the Bill itself there is just this much to be said. This is a very substantial amount—over £31,000,000—but it does not represent the amount which we will be called upon to find or to appropriate for the present financial year, and while a considerable amount of this money, and of the money we will be called upon to find later on, does, in fact, arise out of the emergency, it must be remembered that the policy of the Government, consistently, from the time they came into office, and in the absence of any emergency of any kind, except an occasional one which they brought about themselves, was to increase the amount of the Appropriation Bill year by year: in other words, to increase the cost of the public services. The audited expenditure—not the Estimates, but the audited expenditure—for the year 1930-31 was £20,925,000, or roughly £21,000,000. The audited expenditure for 1932-33 was roughly £24,250,000—in other words in their first year of office, expenditure of this particular type went up by £3,250,000. In 1937-38 the audited expenditure was £28,000,000, in other words an increase of £7,000,000, apart altogether from any emergency. It is now up by more than 50 per cent. over the expenditure of 1930-31. Therefore, Sir, apart from the dire necessities of the moment which we must meet, and which we must assist the Government to meet, to the best of our ability, it has to be remembered that the weight of expenditure— Government services swollen in every direction and Government services increasing in number and expense in every Department—is something which is part of the normal policy of the present Government which had increased it from 1930-31 to 1937-38 by £7,000,000 or about one-third of the total. The fact that that was done and that the burden was already here before the emergency arose, has, of course, a very serious effect on any efforts which we may make now to find money for the emergency. That is all I desire to say now, except that while that is the situation and while great difficulties arise, it is possible for the Minister to be entirely and completely satisfied that nowhere is there to be found any people who have more ability of any kind than any one of his colleagues.

When in the debate last week the question arose with reference to the idea of a really national Government, I had not given the matter much consideration and my views had not become definitely crystallised, but I did I think on that occasion recommend that we should attempt to achieve what I call unity of moral purpose with the Government and people of Northern Ireland. It seems to me, Sir, that that object has already been achieved. Our Government has complete unity of moral purpose with the existing Government of Northern Ireland; both alike are determined to follow the policy of the Vicar of Bray—"Whatsoever king shall reign, I will be the Vicar of Bray, sir." It is not for me to criticise the proceedings in another Parliament, but, at the same time, I cannot help saying that the attitude of Lord Craigavon in the present national and international emergency amounts to this: that he and his family Party are prepared to put their own local privileges and permanent ascendancy in the Government of that area above and before all other considerations and, that being so, it is legitimate to conclude that they are only half-hearted in the defence of the cause of freedom and democracy. But is our Government down here one whit better? Are they in fact not precisely the same from the moral point of view? They, in accordance with the ordinary working of the machinery of democracy, have a majority and that majority entitles them to have a monopoly of executive office and to govern the country, in which they, by no means, command an overwhelming majority of the votes.

That is all very well in normal circumstances but, in a time of national emergency like the present, to refuse absolutely to consider the idea of associating with them in the councils of the State, representatives of other important sections of the community seems to me to amount to the same kind of immoral procedure by way of setting partisan privileges and temporary political ascendancy above all other considerations, even the consideration of the welfare of the nation. In fact, if it be the case that by acting in a certain way we might forward the cause of the unity of Ireland which we are all supposed to have at heart, the only inference from the present attitude of the Government is that they are half-hearted in their furtherance of that cause of national unity. Now, Lord Craigavon was reproached by some independent spirits in his own Parliament with his refusal to take an all-Irish view of his duty in the present crisis, let alone an all-Allied view. Well, that may be so, but we have here a Government which, so far from attempting to take a Thirty-Two County view of its duty to all Ireland, refuses even to take a Twenty-Six County view, for let me remind, the Government that among the Twenty-Six County citizens whom they govern there are at least 45 per cent., and probably more than 50 per cent., of the people who are not their supporters and who are not in any way represented in the Executive Council of the State. At the last election their majority was, I might say, probably 50 to 55 per cent. I am informed by people who know that the tide has been running against them in recent years and if it was purely a question of Party politics, they would stand a very good chance of being beaten in the country. If that be so, and I speak subject to correction, the Opposition Party would have everything to gain by taking a purely partisan view of the present crisis and refusing to associate themselves in any way with the Government. But, instead of that, they are all prepared to sacrifice all possibility of Party gain, and are willing to consider associating themselves with the responsibilities of government in the present national emergency, and yet the attitude of the Government is one of sheer, complete and utter refusal to take this matter into consideration. That being so, I think the Government has shown itself to be morally and politically on the same level with the Craigavon faction which they are so fond of denouncing, and from my own point of view I have the same contempt for them both.

I had no idea that this subject was going to be raised again to-day and I have no desire to repeat the arguments I used on the last day it was discussed, but it seems to me that the speech of Senator Hayes is of very great importance, if it means what I take it to mean. There is no particular point in drawing attention to the size of the vote which was cast against the Government at the last general election unless one has something in mind as an alternative to them now. If the present Government is the only possible Government, it does not matter what their vote was in the last election, it is the duty of 100 per cent. of the people to give it all possible support——

If I might interrupt the Senator, surely it is not a question of whether it is the only possible Government or not? If it is the legitimate Government—I think it is the legitimate Government—whether its majority is small or not, it is the duty of all citizens to support it in an emergency and to give it its due, but if another Government were available, that would not enable us to be disloyal citizens, and I would not be so.

I do not wish to suggest for an instant that Senator Hayes would wish to promote anything in the nature of disloyalty, but there is no point in using language calculated to excite distrust of the present Government, no point in dwelling on their weakness numerically at the last election, no point, in fact, in shaking their faith in themselves——

You could not do that—it is impossible. You need have no fear.

——unless one has an alternative to suggest. This is the first time, so far as I am aware, that a leading member of the Opposition has used language which suggests that the official Opposition is in favour of a coalition Government.

I did not suggest that in any shape or form. My words have not got that meaning.

In that case, if Senator Hayes' words have not got that meaning, I think it is, on the whole, unfortunate that he should have made the speech he did, because if the Opposition Parties are not prepared to contribute to the strengthening of the situation by entering the Government, there is no sense in their reproaching the Government for not inviting them to do so.

I did not say they were not prepared to do so. This idea of making me answer the question: "Have I left off beating my wife?" will not do. It is very poor politics in this situation, very mischievous politics.

I do not see any analogy to the question: "Have you left off beating your wife?"

There is a perfect analogy. "Are you prepared to enter a coalition Government? Answer ‘Yes' or ‘No', but I have no authority to ask you." That is the position.

I would ask that the Senator be allowed to proceed without further interruption.

I am sorry, Sir.

The object of my remarks, such as they are, is not to make any attack on anybody, but to try to carry this extraordinarily important topic a stage further. We have had a great deal of discussion here about the desirability of a coalition, and rather indignant language has been used by various people, including myself, about the over-complacency of the attitude of the Government. It did seem to me that, for the first time, to-day we were getting a real step forward when Senator Hayes associated himself with that language. It really is not much use talking about the over-complacency of the Government, and reminding them of the fact that so many votes were cast against them at the last election unless the Opposition Parties wish it to be understood that they are at any rate open to an invitation.

I agree with Senator Hayes in thinking that there is a great deal of similarity between the line the Government here have taken and that adopted by the Government in Northern Ireland, but that leads me on to make a further remark, which I trust is in order as it arises directly out of what has been said, that I cannot understand the policy of concealing, to so large an extent as it is being concealed at present, from public opinion in the Twenty-Six Counties that very profound changes are going on in the mentality of the people in the Six Counties, if not in the mind of Lord Craigavon. Very remarkable letters and utterances have lately been written and made in Northern Ireland. I think that, inasmuch as they do not emanate from anybody here, either in politics or outside politics, they cannot be regarded as in any way compromising us and, therefore, I am unable to understand why the censorship should not allow these letters and speeches to be published here in full so that the people in this part of Ireland should be able to take note of them as important matters of fact. Undoubtedly, if published here, whether their suggestions could be carried out or not, even assuming that they could not, they would tend to promote better feeling between North and South and an extension of the All-Ireland outlook that we all want to see. I would suggest to the Minister that he should have a look at some of these documents and speeches.

I think I have read them all.

They have not been censored, surely?

I do not think so.

Oh, yes. For example, in this morning's paper there is a brief extract from a letter by Lord Dufferin and Ava.

I read that this morning in a North of Ireland paper. I did not see it in our papers.

There was a brief extract in one of our papers.

It may not have been censored. It does not follow that it was censored.

I think I can assure the Minister that it was, and there have been other instances of the same kind. I think it is a great mistake to apply the same rules of censorship to things that are said and written elsewhere as may be applied to things said and written here, because we have not got any responsibility for them and nobody can say that they are any straying from the path of neutrality on our part. On the other hand, they are of very great interest to us as Irishmen, and we ought, I think, be allowed to know all about them in order to realise the extraordinary change that has been taking place in some most unexpected quarters in Northern Ireland owing to recent events.

The Minister's reply to certain matters which I raised on the Second Stage seemed to me to be so vague and unsatisfactory that I wonder whether I made myself clear at all. I emphasised a certain question which I had been going into, namely, the question of A.R.P., and the Minister indicated that he was in a similar position to most businessmen, that is, they thought some time ago that it was not necessary to make an expenditure and now they were beginning to wonder whether it should not be done. What I wanted to indicate to the Government was that the time has come for a clear lead. We are told there is a danger; we are told there is a national crisis; there is an emergency, and we are told emphatically certain things. One is that there is a duty either to join the Army, the Red Cross, the A.R.P. services or the local security force. The Government, quite rightly, in seeking recruits do not mean that they want the whole 3,000,000 to join the Army. It is perfectly clear to me that there are a great many other duties for people, responsible heads of business, who for various reasons ought not to join the Army at the present time, in my opinion. They have duties and they want some clear lead as to what should be done in this emergency in regard to other matters as well as on the question of joining the Army. I illustrated one of them, but I do not think it is the only one. I am convinced that the people are asking for that lead and I hoped that I would have got an assurance from the Government that the question would be clearly considered and that at an early date there would be some clear statement on the question of A.R.P. and other civil duties in an emergency. Closely allied to that is the matter emphasised by Senator Sir John Keane. I would have stressed it more only that I thought he made it quite clear. I refer to the duty of the civil population in the event of an attack on this country, which we all hope will not come. To be prepared is to be twice armed, and to leave it all vaguely, leaving the people to wonder what they might do, without a lead, is, I feel, a source of danger. A clear lead is necessary.

I do not intend to raise further arguments except to say that I do not think that Senator MacDermot appreciates or judges the position in this country at all accurately. I am absolutely convinced that there is no responsible constitutional Party in this country, if it was put up to them that they had a particular service in this emergency, would refuse it. I am convinced that that is so.

Senator Hayes suggested in his speech that there was collusion— I think that was the word he used— between Senator Douglas and the Minister.

I did not use the word "collusion". I shall have to talk Irish in this House.

That is what he meant.

Would the Senator object?

In any case, it would be quite reasonable to assume that there was collusion between Senator Hayes and Senator Johnston. Both their speeches were on more or less the same lines, and both their speeches, in my opinion, were very harmful. They were not harmful to the Minister, to the Government as such, or to the Government Party, but they might do very considerable damage in the country. If people were to take the trouble to read those speeches, their confidence in the national leadership at present might possibly be shaken. It is very peculiar that Senator Johnston—I suppose I will again be accused of asking Senator Hayes if he has given up beating his wife, but I suggest that no such question arises at all—stated, in very plain words, that it was very regrettable that, while the members of the Opposition were prepared to give their services in a coalition Government, the existing Government refused to accept those services.

I do not think I put it quite in that way. Anyway, I have no authority to speak on behalf of anybody but myself.

That is what I and, I think, the House, interpreted his remarks to mean. Senator Hayes wishes to dissociate himself from any such statement, I take it, from his interjection. If we go back to Senator Hayes' speeches we find that he makes a big speech objecting to the present Government, and suggesting that they should take other counsels which were available and that they had not got the confidence of the people.

I said that?

Last week, he said that Senator Douglas indicated a number of problems and indicated as one solution that the matter should be dealt with by a coalition Government. He went on:—

"I think he said ‘national government' and I apologise to him if I have misquoted him, but I do not think it makes much difference what you call it, because nearly everybody knows or thinks he knows, what it means. Now, that is a matter which I do not propose to discuss at length, except to say this: that none of our problems, and no problems of any country, can be solved by any form of make-believe, and if a national government merely means that two or three parties, no one of which has a solution of the problems to be solved, come together under the cloak of a national government without any agreement between themselves as to the policy they desire to pursue or the remedies they desire to apply, then that may very well be merely a process of deceiving themselves..."

I could see that Senator Hayes became quite alarmed when he was accused of being in the position to speak for the official Opposition, but we cannot have Senator Hayes speaking from one side of his mouth one day and from another side the next day, and expecting us to take him seriously on both days. We must take him seriously in one way or in the other; he cannot have it both ways. When I say that both speeches were, or may be quite harmful, I mean that if the general run of the people were to accept the statements made here to-day, the only conclusion they could come to is that they are completely lost, that there is no leadership, no responsible people to tell them what to do, and that there is no use in taking any notice of orders given to them. That is the conclusion which any average person might come to, but I definitely refuse to believe that any such situation exists. I refuse to believe that the people have lost confidence in the Government, or in their present leadership. Senator Hayes points out that of 13 people you meet in the street, six are against the Government—"have no confidence in the Government" were his words. I do not believe that any such situation exists, and I believe that, regardless of the fact that certain figures can be produced to show that the majority at the last election was so and so, regardless of the fact that the Government, as a result of the last election, had an overwhelming majority in the other House——

In both Houses.

In the Dáil. I am speaking for the non-political side of the House. I believe that, regardless of these facts, people who were then opposed to the Government, and who even now disagree with the Government on certain sections of their policy, have, since the crisis arose, rallied around the Government. Even though they may disagree with the policy of the Government, they realise that the only hope for the country is under one leader, and the average citizen, even though he may disagree with the political programme of that leader, thoroughly understands and appreciates that he is the one man who has any hope of leading this country out of the present situation. Although Senator Hayes may not agree with that, I believe that very many members of his Party think along those lines.

With regard to the giving of instructions to the civil population, I am in thorough agreement with that, because I believe it is very necessary. I believe that the people in rural districts especially are taking things a little too easily, and I think some definite instructions should be issued. It is all very well to say that when the time comes they will get these instructions, but I believe that some indication should be given at present. If this thing comes to a head, and we all hope it will not, it will be necessary to fortify every house in the country and to barricade every road in the country, so that if we cannot prevent a successful attack by air, we will at least make it very difficult for any force which might enter the country to carry on a campaign so far as land forces are concerned. If that indication were given, and if it were possible—I do not believe it is— to have parish councils organised within the time at our disposal, if some system of organisation were in force and definite instructions given to the people, I believe that, having the confidence they have in their present leadership, the people would rally round the Government in the country's hour of need. I believe you would have no trouble whatever in getting every village made into a fortress and, as a result, we would at least make it very difficult for any force, no matter how strong, to work effectively here.

There is nothing further I have to say, except to appeal to Senators to realise that, even though they do not agree with the Government, even though they think the present Government is not the best Government, or that the present Ministers may not be the best men, the only hope we have of surviving as a nation is in rallying round the Government in the present crisis, in giving every possible assistance in rallying the people round that Government, and in convincing the people that the only salvation for the people is to advance in one direction under one Government and one leader.

Surely a better Government is better than a good Government?

I am rather reluctant to be drawn into a discussion on this point of a national Government, but if Senator Quirke were anything of a psychologist at all, he would never have made the sort of speech he makes at critical times or, rather, he would use different language.

What language would the Senator suggest?

Irish, perhaps. This has to be remembered—and it is no harm for Senator Quirke to remember it, too —the truth stands out either in war or in peace, in neutrality or non-belligerency, or whatever particular kind of State one styles oneself as having at the moment. I did not work for the Government in the last election; I had not confidence in them, nor in that Party, and I do not know that anything has happened since which would win my confidence.

What about the economic war?

I am not going to be drawn into that until I have finished with this. There are hundreds of thousands like me—many even much more aggressive than I on that point. That is a fact to-day. Of course, it does not prevent me from supporting the Government, as it is the Government of the moment, and in giving the State whatever power we can give it to defend itself and the lives of the citizens. That does not indicate our supreme confidence in the Government or in its leadership. Nothing of the kind. We do it because we are loyal to the State and because as citizens we realise that it is our job to support the Government in a time of crisis for the sake of the State. If there were a better Government we would not give less support.

Senator Quirke says to-day that a certain thing is our only hope. He talks about parish councils and does not think they can be made operative now. It is not councils we want; it is leadership—more leadership and clearer-headed leadership. I may be more stupid than others, but I have asked people—even those closely associated with the Government—what exactly is to be done under certain circumstances, and I cannot get any clear indication. That is what is perturbing the minds of a great number of ordinary citizens in the country and not alone supporters of the Fine Gael Party.

In regard to the remarks made by Senator Hayes, I do not think it is the least bit mischievous in the present circumstances to say that you did not vote for the Government and did not believe in the Government and that you do not believe in the Government now, but that it is your job to support them because they are the Government. I do not see any mischief in that; if we cannot stand that, we cannot stand much.

We can stand any amount of criticism, but we cannot understand this two-faced business— one minute suggesting that the Opposition are terribly anxious to give their services, the next minute saying that they will not be allowed in and that they disown all responsibility. Senator Baxter may be able to speak for the official Opposition and tell us whether they want to come in or not.

It would take a magician to discern what exactly Senator Quirke is trying to put before the House. Perhaps, when I see his words in print and examine them, I may know. I do not think it can be alleged that the Opposition are not giving at least as loyal service, as an Opposition, as would be given by Senator Quirke's Party if they were in opposition. Speaking frankly, I may say that I have turned over in my mind in the last month what exactly the situation would have been if the present Opposition were the Government and Senator Quirke's Party were in opposition.

We would be in Flanders —probably in Dunkirk.

The debate should not continue further on those lines.

This is very pertinent to the question, and Senator Quirke has an unfortunate facility for disturbing people and trying to create a wrong atmosphere. I would be very noncommittal about a national Government, but I should like the Minister to tell us what exactly the situation would be if the Government were on the run and out of the city and were issuing orders as a Party Government. Does he think that it would be strong enough to withstand that sort of situation? If Senator Quirke is right and this is the last hope and the only hope we have, I am not too hopeful at all. The situation is not too bad, so long as we can meet here and express our views and disagree in this House and know that other people can meet and be called into council on matters regarding defence. If, however, another situation were created here and meetings were impossible and the Government of a Party had the full responsibility of governing and issuing orders under great difficulties, that would be a test, and we would see how the country would stand it. The trouble is that such things cannot be mended afterwards, and I repeat that what the country needs most to-day is leadership.

I put certain questions to the Minister on the last day and do not think they were answered by him. I am going to give him another chance. If we are in for a difficult time—and let us hope that we are not, but you have always to face the worst and aim at the best—we need to know the position regarding the food supply. It is true that, since then, the Minister for Supplies has spoken over the radio and told the people what to do. He has told traders and wholesalers to take in all the stocks they can, and has informed them that if they go to their bankers he feels sure their bankers will meet them. Have we any information with regard to the quantities of various essential foodstuffs in various parts of the country? If we were in for a period of internal strife, forced on us by an external power, with lines of communication cut and bridges broken, it would be very unfortunate to have considerable quantities of certain goods stocked in one place and none in the other, either through want of foresight or business acumen, or through want of cash on the part of wholesalers, or through some circumstance which could have been remedied if the Minister for Supplies had foreseen it in time.

Have we information as to the quantities of tea, sugar, butter, bacon, flour and such commodities which are stored in different zones that, from a military point of view, would be regarded as having certain relation to internal military strategy? I wanted to find out from the Minister if there are plans. Senator Keane gave us some indication that they have been thinking along those lines, but I note that the Minister said nothing. Are there plans in regard to a situation which may very well confront us here in the event of a breakdown of the present currency system, which is our mechanism at the moment? These are questions which are in the minds of many people and the amount of confidence which people have in a particular Government, or in any Government, is dependent to a considerable exent on the belief that the Government has foresight and has made plans to meet every conceivable and possible emergency.

Senator Quirke talked about what could be done with parish councils. The worst possible thing you could have at the moment would be too many councils or too many councillors. A small number of people who knew where they wanted to go, how they wanted to go and whom they were going to bring with them—these are the sort of people he would find useful, people who would give orders and who would see that orders down the country are carried out. If you are attached to a local security corps, if you have responsibility even for the partial defence of your local area, you are wondering whether there are, for instance, wireless transmitting sets in the local barracks or in areas adjacent by which communication can be carried on with headquarters. Obviously, the men in the local defence corps known to one another as John, Tom, Mick and Pat, not ordinary professional soldiers at all but rather men of the type you had operating for a number of years from 1916 onwards, young fellows with a good spirit and properly equipped, can be a tremendous asset. In fact, in the circumstances which we might have to face, they might be really more effective than professional soldiers who, drawn together by the necessities of the moment from different parts of the country, know one another far less well. That is the consideration which many people have before their minds as a point of view which is worth considering and putting into operation. Yet we have no indication of what is being done about it nor can we get any information.

Various references have been made to the situation in the Six Counties and to the point of contact between Lord Craigavon and the Government here with regard to the treatment of minorities. I am not speaking of the minority here in the sense that the minority in the North are talked of. There is no doubt at all but that the successful defence of this part of the country is being very badly hindered by the partition of the country and by the position in the Six Counties. It has been further complicated by the attitude of the minority in the Six Counties—a perfectly understandable attitude. The minority there do not feel that they can co-operate. They do not feel that they have any right to co-operate because many of their rights have been taken from them. My view is that there should be a clear indication from the Government with regard to its attitude at the moment in relation to defence, and particularly in connection with the minority in the Six Counties. I know personally how distraught that minority are, and the many difficulties in which they find themselves to-day— their inability to do anything for themselves, the tyranny inside the area and what they regard as the disregard of their difficulties outside. I feel definitely that our capacity to defend ourselves here is very considerably hampered by the existence of Partition. There is no doubt whatever—a week has passed since I first made this statement, and I repeat it now—that a great number of the people in the Six Counties, people in the majority there, are very much concerned because of their inability to defend themselves, due to the fact that Partition exists. I think that if we had a real leadership in the Twenty-Six Counties we would be much closer to a real union of the 32 Counties than we have been for many years. I believe that we want that leadership now. If we were sufficiently cognisant of the frightful position of the minority in the Six Counties, the outlawed feeling they have, the tyranny they are experiencing, we would realise that there are factors in this internal situation of ours which are terribly dangerous. We cannot close our eyes to all these dangers. If we are to be prevented from saying that there is no clear-headed leadership because it would raise certain doubts in the minds of our people, if we close our eyes to the fact that grave dangers threaten us, then these dangers may come upon us, and come upon us because we unwisely have disregarded the biggest menace of all.

I urge again that, in defence of the Twenty-Six Counties, Government policy with regard to the Six Counties should be made known. The time for that policy to display itself is now. We are non-belligerents in this war, and I do not think there can be any question of that position being changed except we are attacked by some external force. If we are to save ourselves from such an attack, we ought to go to the utmost limits we can, and employ every available means to secure ourselves against attack. If we could rid ourselves of Partition, I believe we would be going very far to secure the 32 Counties from attack. That is where real leadership should display itself. Perhaps that is the one question on which all of us here can be united. If Senator Quirke feels that it is unfortunate that these things should be said, or that we should have to express doubts in regard to the capacity of the Government to employ all the means that are essential for our protection, we cannot help that. We have one blessing, undoubtedly—the liberty here to say these things, but it cannot absolve us from our obligation to support the Government in the conditions that exist here at the moment. Certainly, it cannot be said that we, on this side of the House, are not doing as much in that respect as those on the other side. Such differences as exist should not prevent us from doing our duty, nor should it absolve any citizen from doing his part in the crisis which we have before us.

"If we could rid ourselves of Partition"—that is a very fine sentiment, but Senator Baxter did not tell us at all how we can rid ourselves of Partition. He told us that the minority in the North were not at all satisfied with the Government here, not satisfied with the Government's efforts to end Partition. I question that statement. I think the minority in the North of Ireland would be quite satisfied with the efforts made by the Government in this part of Ireland to abolish Partition. I think the people in the North of Ireland who do not agree with the Government here are the people who are in the majority in the North of Ireland. If the people who are in the majority in the North of Ireland would only learn sense, act decently, and give up tyranny and oppression, it would be possible to solve the Border problem.

It will take Hitler to do it.

Senator Baxter has alleged that the minority in the North are not satisfied with the efforts of the Government here in endeavouring to solve Partition. Perhaps I should say that he meant that the minority in the North thought that the Government here has not done sufficient to bring an end to Partition.

Can the Senator suggest any way of ending Partition during the war? I, for one, rack my brains for a solution, and cannot think of one. Can the Senator?

I must confess that I am in the same predicament as Senator MacDermot, and I am wondering why Senator Baxter did not provide us with a solution. He was so anxious to blame the Government for its failure to end Partition, that he failed to find any solution himself or to give any idea as to what the Government might do. Apart from Partition, I suppose we are here to criticise the Government for its financial management of the country. We are supposed to find fault with a lot of the expenditure that has been incurred during the past year, and to endeavour to find ways—and many of us, I am sure, would be only too glad if we could find ways—for reducing that expenditure. I wonder, however, how many of us endeavour to visualise what is likely to happen in this country, say, even next winter, which is not very far away from us, as a result of this terrible conflict that is being waged at present, a conflict that is approaching nearer and nearer to us every day and a conflict that, perhaps, before next winter, may utterly destroy the economic and political life of the neighbouring country. Do we realise what the effect of that is likely to be in this country, and what the position will be in our towns—especially in our towns—during the coming winter? It is all very well for the people who can afford to store food, and to store fuel, but what about the vast numbers of our people who live from day to day, who buy their supplies in small quantities, and who, perhaps, may find themselves in the position that, when they go for their daily food and their daily fuel next winter, they will have nothing to get?

My complaint is that we are not taking sufficiently serious notice of the position that is likely to be facing us. I do not at all agree with Senator Baxter in his condemnation of parish councils. Circumstances very in different parishes in this country. You have the rural parish, the city parish, and the town parish; and the men on the spot, and the women, of course, are the people who are best fitted to examine and inquire into the local conditions and provide against the dangers to which I refer. Now, of course, the arrangements that could be made need a lead, and perhaps I might agree with Senator Baxter to the extent that the lead may not be strong enough or definite enough. If we form a parish council, that council, of course, has no statutory authority. It could only act to a great extent as an advisory body. I suppose, but it could do very valuable work and it might be the means of saving the people from the very severe economic stress with which we may be faced in the coming winter. As I said already, I do not agree with Senator Baxter in his condemnation of the parish councils, but they could do good work.

I do not want to be misunderstood. I was not condemning them at all.

Well, perhaps, "decrying the usefulness of parish councils" might be a better description.

In certain circumstances.

Now, the lead need not necessarily come from the Government. It could come from the public bodies, and if the public bodies in various places were to move in the matter, get the people in the different parishes organised, and help to organise them, I think it would be quite effective. I think it was Senator Baxter who made reference to the change in the attitude of the Northern Ireland Government. Well, the Northern Ireland Government are cute people. Perhaps they see the writing on the wall, and they may be anxious to change their attitude towards us people in the South. Now, some of us will remember 1913 and the attitude of the men who spoke for Northern Ireland at that time. I believe it was pretty well known that at that time some very prominent people in the North of Ireland were actually inviting a possible belligerent to come across to the North of Ireland in the event of certain things happening here in the South. There was a danger of Home Rule being passed at the time, and certain people in the North threatened to kick a certain sovereign's crown into the Boyne in the event of that happening.

I quite agree with Senator Sir John Keane that enough is not being done with reference to air raid precautions, but the attitude of the people in the smaller towns is this. They say that there is no danger in the small towns at all and no necessity for A.R.P. They believe that such precautions will only be necessary in the larger centres, such as the City of Dublin and, possibly, the cities of Cork, Limerick, Waterford, and so on, and that there is no danger of any attack that would necessitate the use of A.R.P. methods in the small towns at all, and therefore they are not bothering. For instance, we were warned months ago about the necessity for gas masks, but gas is not being used in this war at all, and we all hope that it will not be used by either of the belligerents. Apart from that, however, the people feel that there is no necessity for A.R.P. in these smaller towns, and that is why nothing is being done in the matter.

I shall conclude on one note. I disagree with Senator Baxter when he says that nothing that was done by the Government during its period of office has changed his opinion as to the Government's effectiveness. I think that quite a number of people in the country to-day would not agree with that view. But for the Government's policy in certain matters during the past few years, we here in Ireland would find ourselves in a far more dangerous economic position than we are in at the moment. The former policy was to leave us dependent to a great extent on supplies from outside sources, supplies of necessary articles, such as foodstuffs, clothing and other essential things. The work done by the present Government during the past few years—work that is not at all approved of by Senator Baxter and others, I am sure—has had a very useful effect up to the present and it is now that we are realising the full benefit of it. I agree with Senator Baxter that we should all do all that we possibly can, in the interests of the whole country, to support the Government, not because everybody here believes in the policy of the Government—and, of course, there are many things in which we will always differ— but because a time such as this is not a time for carping criticism at all and because the position now is that every one of us will be facing very difficult and dangerous times. In that connection, it must be remembered by all of us that the first people we have to consider are the people who are unable to look after themselves, who have to live from day to day, and whose position, when the real danger comes, will be very precarious indeed.

I should like to deal with some points that were raised by Senator Baxter. Senator Baxter asks for leadership. He says that the people of Ireland have not confidence in the leaders at present in office. Now, that is not true. On every occasion, during the last three or four years, that the people got the opportunity—despite all the talk of Senator Baxter and his friends, and despite all the propaganda that was used—they renewed their confidence in the leadership of the present Government and they still have that confidence. The people are very grateful that the present leader of the Irish people was in office during these times, because it was through his leadership that we now can enjoy the privilege of being a neutral State, even for portion of our country, at the present time.

Were it not for his statesmanship since he came into office, we could not be here to-day. Our declaration of neutrality would have been of no use were it not for the fact of, as I say again, the leadership of the Government and of the Taoiseach in particular in securing that the foreign army had left, at least, our ports in the Twenty-Six Counties. I think it does not require a lot of intelligence to understand that if our ports were now occupied by the fighting forces there would be very little use in declaring neutrality when you had the enemy already in your country. The people of the country recognise that and appreciate it and they have confidence that the man who has brought them through such stormy periods in the past is the one man they can rely on to bring them through the present struggle.

I cannot understand this "supposed-to-be-unity" we have at the present time—I can find no other words to describe it. We hear the Opposition say that they are 100 per cent. behind the Government, yet at the same time, and almost in the same breath, they state that the Government has not the confidence of the people. I cannot reconcile the two statements because every statement of that kind is an encouragement, to my mind, to those people outside who say that the Government has no right to govern at all. Every statement that is made here that the Government are losing the confidence of the people, particularly at this stage, and in the future with dark possibilities before us is damaging. Should the worst come, it will be of absolute necessity that the people should have confidence in their leaders and in the Government, whatever Government is in office at the time, and I think that those statements that are made from the Opposition that the Government are losing confidence have a very bad effect.

Appeals have been made for a national Government by the Opposition or, I should say, from the Opposition Benches. Senator Johnston, in particular, pleads for a national Government and, at the same time, in the same breath, he states he holds the present leaders should be condemned as much as the Craigavon Government. I cannot reconcile those two statements. On the one hand, you are pleading: "Open the doors and let us in to assist you in this emergency" and at the same time, you say: "We are going in, although you deserve the greatest condemnation." Senator Baxter, in his plea for leadership, brought in what seems to be very important nowadays, the Northern question. I know the leadership in which Senator Baxter would have confidence. They would be some of those leaders who, to my mind, have done more in the past to establish Partition as a permanent feature of this country than anybody else and I think that the people want no more bargains. They want to see in office the people they have confidence in and, in my opinion, the idea behind all this plea for a national Government is this: some people are afraid that the present Government are putting this State first and foremost and above all, and not giving that consideration to some other particular State that those particular people would like to have given.

I did not intend to intervene in this debate beyond saying that I hold that recruiting down the country is not receiving the attention it should be given, and I have to agree with some of the Senators when they say that there is need for a proper lead. The lead should come from the Defence Council set up here. A number of people are, unfortunately, not aware of the crisis that exists at the moment and there is no one to take upon himself the responsibility of teaching and educating them to it. It was mentioned here that from 1916 to 1920 you had, to my own knowledge, organisers in every townland in the Twenty-Six Counties and probably in the 32 Counties. You have not got that assistance to-day. One is comparing with the other, and there is a feeling that if a politician such as a Deputy or a Senator exerts himself or tries to encourage the youth to join the National Army and give it every support, they are out for themselves, that they have a good job and should not be followed.

Unfortunately, that is true, and what is wanted most is the help of the older military men who have given service to this country, men whom the people know in different parts of the country, who did their work when it was needed and whom they trust. I think they would be the best men to send out through the country to get the youth to join up, to get the middle-aged to assist and to go to the homes and the people of the country and facilitate them in every possible way. That is my feeling on this particular point but, before you get that, you want to get leaders here to exert themselves and to have men in each of the Twenty-Six Counties responsible for the working and running of their county. If you get that in each county, we will be all prepared to give obedience and assist in every possible way. The same would apply to food supplies and to the distribution of the food in the event of trouble. That is essential, just as essential as are the men with the rifles and the guns. I hope, Sir, that in a short time the leaders and the Defence Council, men of principle and intelligence, will see their way to have something put into operation and that people will get the habit of assisting in every possible way.

Just before the Mininster concludes, these matters were adverted to last week and I cannot say that I was satisfied at all with the answer given by the Minister. He said, in reply to statements made here concerning the economic position of this country which was likely to arise, which we feel is more than likely to arise, that the Government had given great consideration to all these matters. I do not think it is satisfactory, from our point of view, to be told that the Government has given consideration to these matters. I think the Government ought to indicate more clearly than that what they have done by way of planning to meet the situation to which reference was made here. Senator Goulding, in his remarks a few minutes ago, also seemed to think that more information in regard to planning food supplies should be given. With that I am absolutely in harmony. Why this information is not given we cannot say. It seems to me that it is advisable in the public interest that something in this regard should be done. The British Government, I am given to understand, has divided Great Britain into 800 food areas.

Each of these areas is to be as independent within its own confines as possible. They are looking to the future with regard to food. There is one thing alone which the British Government has undertaken. What have we done in the same regard? This situation may be thrust upon us at the earliest moment. Looking into the war situation, one feels that the next few weeks or the next few months will not pass by without a major military effort being made by Germany against Great Britain. This must inevitably bring us up against serious problems and we are not satisfied—especially those of us, as I said here last week, who speak for big organisations of working people in this country, who are undoubtedly likely to be most affected by anything that would happen—we are not satisfied at all, in so far as we have been told, that the Government are doing all that is necessary to meet this situation. I hope we are not unduly pressing them, but we feel that we are expressing the views of our people in regard to a very grave situation which is likely to arise. How that planning may be done or how this House or Parliament or those responsible may be taken into the confidence of the Government with regard to these matters, I do not know, but I am certainly complaining that the responsible people in this country have not been given what we consider necessary information in regard to a very serious and probably most disastrous situation which is calculated to arise in the near future. The matter is of sufficient importance and sufficiently out of the ordinary for the Government to seek out of the ordinary methods for dealing with a situation such as that. So far as the organisations that I speak for here and elsewhere are concerned, they are quite prepared to give every help and assistance they possibly can to meet that situation. We think, in effect, that something should be done in the way of a plan. In other words, at least a blue print should be drawn up. The emergency may never arise, but if it should, and if plans are not ready to meet it, then you will have the situation which Marshal Petain referred to—utter and complete chaos, nobody knowing what to do, nobody having thought out the situation, and, consequently, utter and complete chaos descending upon us. I hope the Government have thought out the situation. We have been told they have, but I think the Government ought to go beyond that and ought to tell certain people who are is responsible positions what they have thought out and how, in their opinion, the situation is going to be met.

Last week I got the impression from the speeches made here that a number of Senators were suffering badly from the jitters. To-day I do not know whether it is that they have gone childish and somebody has been shouting "bogey man" at them, but they seem to be suffering from something very silly or queer. I must say that I am very disappointed at the tone of some of the speeches made here to-day. They are anything but a credit, I should say, to members of this House, particularly at the present time. I wish to say that, as far as I am concerned, I protest strongly against them. The Opposition, if it is an Opposition, has an excellent chance, on coming into this House, to criticise and to show something in the way of leadership. As far as I am concerned, I have seen no indication, good, bad or indifferent, of leadership on the part of the Opposition, either to-day or on the last day. During the past week I have spent a good deal of time reading the reports of the proceedings of this House, and of the other House. I read them very carefully. The result of my reading those reports, and the result of whatever thought I have been able to give to the problems, is that I never had more confidence in Party government, and I never had more confidence in the present Government than I have to-day. I only wish the Government would take it into its mind to call the Recess immediately, and get on with its own particular work. There are people in this country who do not like this Government. I know that. Everybody knows that. But I would say that if there were an election to-morrow, the present Government would come back stronger than it is at the present time. That is my own conviction. There is no use in twitting the Government with regard to the figures of the last general election. I meet a great many people. I travel this country very often from end to end, and my conviction is that the Government never stood higher, and that the leader of this Government never stood higher in the estimation of the Irish people than he does to-day.

Senator Baxter made an interesting speech last week. He might have left it at that, but he convinced me from what he said to-day that he has not given any thought to the difficulty and complexity of the problems that are arising. Otherwise he would never have pressed for a specific indication from the Minister regarding Government planning in connection with many of the questions which seem to worry him. The simple reason is that you just cannot forecast what you are going to do in regard to many of these problems, and besides, how is one to foresee all the problems which may arise? It reminds me of a letter I received some time ago from a certain citizen, asking me if I would ask the Minister for Defence if he would indicate where he expected an attack in this country. If we knew all the problems that are going to arise, and how and when, we could make our plans perfectly. I want to say that I was quite pleased with the speech of the Minister for Finance last week, and I think that if Senators had read it, and had taken a reasonable attitude, especially in view of the emergency, they would have been quite satisfied with the Minister's assurances on these matters.

Last week the Minister for Finance said (col. 1919):—

"I think I can say to him and to the House in general that the Government is fully conscious and fully aware of the situation—of the European situation and of the world situation—and of our intimate relationship to it and to what might come out of it. It has been under discussion at meeting after meeting of the Government for many months —both at frequent and long meetings —and there is no aspect of the question raised here to-day which has not been thought of, discussed and canvassed in some measure at those meetings of the Government."

The Minister went on and said further:—

"I repeat—with all the seriousness and emphasis I can use—that no aspect of the matter has been overlooked by the Government. I do not say that everything has been foreseen. Even with the variety of points of view, the variety of talent, and the variety of experience we have got here and in the Dáil, I doubt if we could forecast the things which might come to pass out of this war, and the way in which we may be involved."

I am perfectly satisfied with that statement and I have reason to be. A number of people put up certain suggestions to me that might be brought before certain Ministers. The Ministers concerned were good enough to see me and I put those suggestions to them. There were about ten or 12 of them and I found that every one of them had been covered already by those different Ministers.

As far as leadership is concerned, I am quite satisfied with the leadership from the Government as it is. What I think is wrong is that the Government has done its work too well. If the Government had been less competent, people would be more aware of the seriousness of the situation. Nobody in this country so far has gone short of anything. If the Government had been less competent, as I say, people, and young people especially, would realise more the seriousness of the situation and they would be quicker to rally to the national call that has been made to them. I agree largely with what has been said by Senator Douglas in regard to A.R.P. I think the time has now come when a definite lead ought to be given to the country on the matter. In Galway, for instance, I do not think that anything has been done. Galway is rather peculiarly situated, and the possibility of making underground shelters there is not very great because the city is built on solid granite rock. What might be done there, I do not know, but I do think that, since Senator Douglas has raised the matter, the Minister for Defence and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures should go into it and give us some indication as to what we in the country might do with regard to A.R.P.

If I am in order in doing so, I should like to suggest that something might be done in the matter of organising people into corps of volunteers such as we had in the past. I should like to discuss it further, but we have not got time in view of the Minister's appointment, but I suggest that it would be well worth while considering the possibility of organising the young men of the country into volunteer corps such as we had in the past and I ask the Minister for Finance to put the suggestion before the proper authority.

I have been listening to this cry for a national Government for a considerable time and I am really at a loss to understand what it means. If the members of the present Government, collectively and individually, are not national, I do not know what they are. Would it improve the situation or make us any better citizens if we dismissed the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government and put in two other men from the Opposition? Would it make the Government any stronger or any more national? It would not, to the minds of most people. If that has to be done in order to make us do our duty as citizens in time of crisis, it is a very sad commentary on our citizenship.

With regard to recruiting for the Army, I think recruits are coming up in sufficient numbers and as fast as the Army authorities are capable of dealing with them. In my own county, about 1,200 young men have presented themselves for the regular Army. Of these, only the very best, only those who are perfectly fit, to the number of 750, have been selected and are already in training. For the local security service, 1,500 men have presented themselves in the small County of Clare, and those men have been accepted. I think very fair progress has been made and there is no indication that the people want a greater lead than they have at present. I think every young Irishman ought to know his duty and it should not be necessary for members of the Seanad or the Dáil to make a house-to-house canvass to get young men to do their duty. That is not the way it was done in 1916 or in 1921, 1922, or 1923. Every man saw his duty then and stood up to it. For a time, perhaps, it is true that one waited for the other, that young men waited "Until we see what So-and-so does". Happily, in most cases, those who were looked up to in that fashion have done their duty and have offered their services to the Government, and the others are now following them. If it were necessary to get these recruits more quickly, I think there should not be any hesitation on the part of the Government in calling on young men of certain ages, say, from 18 to 30 years, to register immediately. The authorities of the local committees could then select those whom they thought could best be spared. But if anybody thinks he can shirk his responsibilities by waiting for somebody else, I think the Government has power to call on those who do not do it voluntarily to do it in another way, and to call them to the Colours at once.

I think that, in the matter of leadership, we have in the present Government as good a leadership as we would get from the Government which preceded it. The members of this Government and the members of the Government which preceded it have records of courage and hard work which need no commendation to anybody in this country. I do not intend to labour that point, except to say that the Government deserves all the support it can get from the people. I think it was Senator Hayes who referred to the smug complacency of the present Government. I think that may be a reflex to some extent of the smug complacency of the people as a whole. I mix with the people of this city probably as much as, if not more than, any member of this House, and everywhere I go I find an attitude of complete indifference to the present situation. I think it would be no exaggeration to say that it would be difficult to convince even one in 1,000 people that any danger exists for this country.

I find that attitude of indifference and complacency everywhere, and if one listens in buses, trams or on the street, one will hear extraordinary points of view expressed in that regard. Only the other night, in the picture house near where I live, an announcement was thrown on the screen stating that a meeting of the local A.R.P. personnel would be held on Monday night, and at least 50 per cent. of the house rocked with laughter. It was the most appalling thing I ever saw—absolutely half of the house rocked with laughter when the announcement was thrown on the screen. The Taoiseach told us last Sunday that this danger may overtake us in a day or in a week, and it is in that regard that I have to complain of the attitude of the Government. The Government, I am quite certain, has made plans in conjunction with the military authorities for the defence of this country. None of us wants to know what those plans are, but I certainly do say that, so far as the civilian population are concerned, it is the duty of the Government to let the people know what preparations they have made. There are certain air-raid shelters in the city, but I guarantee not one person in 10,000 would know what to do if there were an air raid on the city to-night.

In that respect I do criticise the Government. The Government has the press, the wireless and other means of conveying that information to the public, and I think it is their absolute duty to make these plans known immediately. None of us, as I say, wants to know what the military preparations are, but I have had considerable complaints, particularly from elderly people, with regard to plans for the civilian population. It would be absolutely useless to try to convince the young people that any danger at all exists. From 13 to 30 years of age, they just laugh at you. Bearing in mind what the Taoiseach has told us of the danger that threatens the country—I have no reason to doubt what he says, and I accept it—I think we ought to make every effort to let the people know what preparations have been made.

Thank God, other nations have not had any experience, so far, of gas attacks, but the war may develop in the near future to such an extent that gas attacks will be made against the peoples of different countries. In that connection, I should like to know what has happened to the gas masks which are in store for the use of our people. An authority on the matter tells me that unless these gas masks are attended to fairly frequently, they deteriorate and become useless after a certain time. I am not an authority, but I mention the matter so that the Minister may convey to the proper authorities the complaint made in that respect with a view to having it inquired into. I think that much of the discussion on this Bill has been futile, and I do not think it is necessary to criticise the Government so far as leadership is concerned.

Speaking personally and frankly, I am quite prepared to believe that the man at the head of the Government is as competent as any man in the country to lead the country in the crisis which confronts it. I believe that equally of the Government that preceded it, but I seriously urge the Minister to bring to the notice of the other members of the Government the absolute necessity of publicising the steps they have taken so far for the protection of the civil population. The Minister for Supplies in his broadcast the other night gave some indication as to what we ought to do. I think it was a most useful broadcast. The same steps should be taken to bring to the notice of the public in general the plans which the Government has made for the protection of the civil population. They should be told what they are to do if and when certain events occur.

There is just one other matter. Industries have been in a very parlous plight at the present time. I understand that many industries have not more than a fortnight's supply of raw materials. I have that information on the authority of the secretary of a concern embracing many industries: a questionnaire was sent out recently and it was found that something like 2 per cent. have a supply of raw materials sufficient to last for a fortnight. Every one would like to help in trying to solve these matters. Every one of us here would like to be dealing with economic and social matters arising out of and subsequent to the war, rather than be sitting here week after week engaging in futile and unnecessary criticism of the Government as such. Many of us are not competent to do certain work, but there is something which each of us can do if we are allocated to it. I trust that the Minister will bring these matters to the notice of the proper authority.

The first Senator who spoke to-day—Senator Hayes—in this discussion, accused me of not having spoken a word on finance when we debated the Finance Bill last week. I have since looked up the report of the proceedings, and I find that about a third of my speech related to matters peculiarly referring to the Finance Bill—about six columns. Of course, I may not have touched on the points in which Senator Hayes was particularly interested, or on the points in which some other Senators were interested; but I think that I touched on almost all of the points raised, either directly or indirectly. It is not true to say that I did not deal with finance and the Finance Bill. The Official Report is the best evidence of the truth of my statement, if anybody wishes to examine it. When we were discussing the Finance Bill, I took the liberty to comment on the width of the ambit of discussion to which this House is accustomed, and it seems to me that the comment I made then is applicable also to the discussion to-day. We had a discussion ranging from gas masks to Partition. Surely, the Minister for Finance is not expected to answer matters like that in detail.

Every one of them.

I can assure the Senator that I am not going to do that. Senators can complain to their hearts' content, and the complaints and growls will roll off me quite easily. Those who have not heard it should read the speech delivered to-day by Senator Johnston on the question of a national Government or a coalition Government, and, if they do so with unbiassed judgment, they will find the best answer, and the reason why we could not have a coalition Government, or, at any rate, one on which those with his mentality would be represented. The answer is, in his own words, very plain for anyone to read. I dealt with the Finance Bill, but not to the extent with which I would have dealt with it if other problems and questions had not been raised. They were problems and questions, which I gathered from the Senators who spoke, were the things uppermost in their minds, and which they wished to have discussed, and on which they wished to have the comments of the Minister for Finance.

I spoke at considerable length and have no objection at all to discussing this at greater length and to staying here as long as the members of the Seanad wish, but I suggest that I put myself into the mood of the Seanad on the last day and answered the questions and problems which they put to me. I did not want to dodge anyone and do not want to do so to-day. There are questions which I am not competent to answer. I am not competent to give a detailed answer to many of the questions raised here to-day. In regard to a point raised by Senator Douglas on the question of air raid precautions, he said that my answer was vague. It was an answer to his question. It is quite a fair thing for the Minister for Finance, discussing an Appropriation Bill, to say that he will bring the matter raised by that Senator, and by other Senators, to the notice of the Minister concerned. I do not think he can expect anything more than that from me. I cannot give detailed answers on the question of the arrangements which have been made or are being made at this moment to deal with the protection of the people in regard to air raids. I told the House that eight or nine months ago I was not convinced of the urgent necessity at that time for spending large sums of money and that I had, as Minister for Finance, tried hard and succeeded, to some extent, at any rate, in curtailing expenditure. I do not feel of the same mind now. I do not think I can say any more than that.

I said the last day that the expenditure of this Government is heavy, as illustrated by the Finance Bill and the Appropriation Bill that we have here now and the Book of Estimates which goes therewith. I do not deny that at all. Accepting the figures quoted by Senator Hayes to-day, expenditure is much heavier now and has been gradually increasing during the period of this Government over the expenditure during the period of office of the last Government. Taking one instance alone, where it has increased as compared with the last year of the existence of the last Government, I think the figures given by Senator Hayes for the total audited expenditure for 1931-32 and the last audited figures—for 1938-39, probably—show that there has been an increase of nearly £10,000,000. I do not object to Senator Hayes emphasising that and calling attention to it. It has been emphasised over and over again in the Seanad, and that will be done again. Even so, it will have the same effect politically in the next five or ten years as it has had in the past. The Senator can "put that in his pipe and smoke it".

The Minister is a prophet now.

There has been plenty of opportunity to emphasise that over a number of years.

Mr. Hayes

Great is truth.

And it will prevail, and it will go on for many a long year, as long as it continues true to the people, to look after the people as we are trying to do.

Fifty-one per cent. of the people anyway.

The majority of the people. We were reminded in the period of the last Government, which existed on a majority of one for a long time, that that was democracy, and we had to put up with it. We have a bigger majority now, a greater majority than the last Government had for a number of years before it went out of office, and this is democracy. The Senator got his chance; now let him take his medicine.

You will get plenty of it, if you want it. We are here by the votes of the majority of the people. If we had not a sufficient majority this Government would not be here. When the people fail it, it will go out, and that will be, I suppose, when it fails the people in the people's eyes. At any rate, we have had general elections, several of them, and the majority has gone on increasing. We are told that we have a smaller majority to-day than we had at the time of the general election. Who knows that? Who has any authority to say that? Anybody here, as Senator Hawkins stated to-day, knows that Senators on this side of the House are just as much entitled to say that we have vastly greater support. But that is a foolish thing to say. Nobody can say that until we have a general election, and we are prepared to face that at any time. Listening to some Senators here to-day, notwithstanding the fact that we have national union—we have a facade of it apparently, but if some of these gentlemen had their way, there would not be much reality behind that facade—it would appear from the tone of their speeches that they were willing to wound but afraid to strike. They can strike any time they please, if that is what they want. It is hard to know what they want.

We have admittedly spent a great deal more money than the last Government. We have spent it on housing, on old age pensions, on widows' and orphans' pensions, on unemployment assistance, on free milk, on public health services—millions of money. I think that money has been usefully spent. Some people may say we are spending more than we can afford to spend. That is a question that can be debated and argued. I do not object to anybody holding that viewpoint. I am prepared to discuss and to argue it with any Senator on any side of the House at any time. I think it was necessary to spend that money on housing and on social services in general. I think it would be necessary for a good many years to continue expenditure at the same rate or at a greater rate. I know it would be a difficult job for the Minister for Finance, whoever he is—certainly a very difficult job in these times—to find the money. In fact, we cannot spend at the same rate in these days, considering what we have spent on defence measures, but I make no apology on behalf of this Government for the additional expenditure, so far as these items of social services are concerned. Other items that would add to these millions I need not go into in detail. We stand for it, defend it and uphold it, and in normal times we shall continue to expend money in similar directions. Senator Johnston says this Government stands a very good chance of being beaten in a general election. That is a wild statement. Where did he learn that? I hope it was not from his books of economics.

It would be a happy country if there were another general election in the next few years.

The Senator will not do much to save the country, not a great lot, and certainly, if one is to judge by his speech to-day, he will not be asked to do it. I am not so full of righteousness, of belief in myself, and in the capacity of this Government that I do not admit, as I said the last day, that it is a human Government. It is human and, as a human instrument, it has certain weaknesses, but, as I said the last day, and as I repeat now, I am blowed if I can see where you are going to get a better one, individually and collectively. You certainly would find the greatest difficulty in getting a body of men in whom the country would have greater confidence. I do not think any coalition or so-called national body that would be drawn out of the hat, or drawn anyway you like, drawn out in secret or by open vote by selection here, that would come in now in this emergency could beget greater confidence. I cannot see any body of men that would get a greater backing or that could give the country a greater sense of security than this Government does. It is not a full sense of security, I admit, but a greater sense of security than at present exists you cannot get, I believe, out of any reconstruction. That is my firm belief. Personally, I would not stand in the way of a better Government, not for one minute. I would happily step out. That is my personal feeling on the matter.

I should be quite happy to get out if a decision were come to in our elective assemblies that we should have a national institution of any kind better able to meet the emergency, better able to lead the country, better able to secure for it its rights, better able to maintain its security. If any such body is suggested by our elective assemblies I know I would not stand for as much as one half minute as an obstacle in the path. I am sure I can speak for others as well but I honestly believe, and have the firm faith and conviction that, search all Ireland, the Twenty-Six Counties or the Thirty-two Counties, and you will not get any half-dozen men who will combine in themselves the ability to lead this country that is found in the one man, Eamon de Valera. I do not care what half dozen men are selected—known public men or unknown men.

I think we all accept Eamon de Valera's leadership.

It does not matter much what the Senator accepts—not a great lot. It does not affect the issue one way or another. He is a member of the Government the same as the rest of us and we know what the Senator's contempt, as expressed by himself, is for the Government headed by Eamon de Valera. It is a Government of a Party. That again, is democracy. Senator Baxter stressed that it is a Party Government. Well, what was the last Government? What will any Government be, as long as this system lasts here? Is it any the worse because it is a Party Government? I do not think so. Senator MacDermot may think it is.

I do. At times of great crisis, every nation in the world has found it better to form a coalition Government.

And what has happened as a result?

I think that is a slight exaggeration. I think it is an exaggeration to say that every nation in the world has found it better. Some nations, certainly.

Even President Roosevelt, in the United States of America, has thought it better to include members of another Party in his Cabinet.

And the people he selected have been repudiated by their Party.

Yes, and so much the worse for America.

Well, I think we are rambling.

Mr. Hayes

That is no trouble to us.

Senator Baxter asked: "Have we any plans for dealing with every conceivable and possible emergency?" These are his words, as I wrote them down. Now, imagine any sensible man asking a question of that kind!

Perhaps I may be permitted to put a question to the Minister. I asked him what he has done about stocks. Have you plans about various stocks?

That is running away from his own question. The Senator asked had we plans for dealing with every conceivable and possible emergency?

Tell us what you have done about stocks.

For the love of goodness, have sense. Get sense, Senator. The Senator's question was: "Have we plans for dealing with every conceivable and possible emergency?" and that gentleman is supposed to be one of the leaders of a Party in this House!

Not at all; nothing of the kind.

It is a pity he has not been tried out, if that be a sample of intelligent criticism of the activities of this Government, and that is one example taken out of the Senator's speech of to-day.

Is not that an evasion?

"Have we any plans for dealing with every conceivable and possible emergency?" The Senator asks me about food. Now, I ask him again: Am I the Minister to ask whether we have food in every parish in Ireland? Am I the person to answer that question?

At least the Minister could give an answer decently about it or say that he did not know.

I shall not give you that answer, but I say that there are competent people dealing with that job——

Is it done?

——and evidently more competent to deal with it than the man who would ask so foolish a question.

Even that is not an answer.

I say it is, and the Senator heard the Minister for Supplies, or at least, if he did not hear him, he heard somebody referring to what the Minister for Supplies said.

I heard him, but he did not tell us about the stocks; he told us to put them in.

He did not dot the I's or cross the T's for the Senator. The Minister asked everybody who had any responsibility for community life, for large communities in particular, people in charge of homes, and such people as merchants and shopkeepers, to lay in stocks. He asked for that. If Senator Baxter had his way that would not be followed up much, because he would not inspire any confidence in what the Minister said. That is what I take from the Senator's speech to-day.

Quite the contrary.

Well, I am glad if I am wrong. Again, the Senator asks about wireless transmission sets. I do not know anything about wireless. I listen in once in a while, when I can get home, to the news, and that is about the extent of my knowledge of wireless. I cannot tell the Senator what wireless transmission sets there may be at the disposal of the various forces. I know that there are some. I shall call the attention of the Minister for Defence to the matter but I cannot do any more than that. Senator Baxter dealt at great length with the subject of Partition.

Will the Minister refer to the question of currency?

I referred to it on the last occasion——

You did not.

——vaguely, I admit, and indirectly.

I said that I took it that that was one of the Defence problems proper, arising out of this emergency, and said that there was no aspect of these matters that had not been discussed, considered and canvassed by the Government. Senator Sir John Keane elaborated on it a bit, as he was entitled from his position to do, and said that there had been conferences with the Government by the banking community—the officials who represent the Banks Standing Committee. There have been. There have been frequent and detailed discussions. I cannot say that satisfactory plans have been evolved for everything that may arise, but the matter has not been lost sight of. That is all I can say to the Senator. There have been meetings, and there will be more.

Senator Baxter referred to the minority in the Six Counties, and asked for a clear statement of the attitude of the Government in that connection. Well, all this talk about Partition comes well from the people who were responsible for fixing Partition on the country.

At any rate, if there is anybody in this country capable of getting rid of Partition it will be this Government. I am hopeful that we will get rid of it, and I can say that the matter is receiving attention, and those who run may read. I cannot give, and it would not be wise or helpful to give, any further information at this moment. Those who read the papers— certain newspapers referred to by Senator MacDermot to-day—can see that there is something moving, and that the matter is a subject of live interest at present; and I can say, in reply to Senator Baxter's remark that we would be closer to the unity of the country now if we had real leadership; that the leadership that is here to-day, the real leadership of this country that is here, will undo, with God's help, the crime of Partition that was fixed on the country by those to whom Senator Baxter gave his political allegiance. We have not disregarded that great danger—the danger of Partition, that is there. We have not disregarded it—far from it. I believe that it will be a great day for this country when we can get rid of Partition; and I say that no month of the years that we have been in office has passed without some effort being made, in one direction or another, in Ireland and outside Ireland, to get rid of Partition. I am sorry that these efforts have not fructified earlier, but I have the belief—I hope not a misguided or misplaced belief—that Eamon de Valera will yet succeed in ending the crime that was committed when the Boundary was erected in this country.

I do not know that there are any other questions. I think that covers all the notes I have made, except that I should like to deal with the question asked by Senator Lynch. On the matter of food supplies, as on other matters,. I am not in a position to give detailed information, but the Senator knows that there is machinery open to him, and to representative people like him, to get that information. I am sure that, so far as it is wise to give it, it will not be refused to the Senator if he asks for it in the direction I have indicated.

The Minister did not deal with one point which was raised by Senator Quirke and Senator Sir John Keane about the dissemination of information to the rural districts—a very important matter. I take it that he will mention the matter to the Minister for Defence. I would like to say that I support both of those speakers on that point.

Question put and agreed to.

With regard to item No. 2, as the Minister for Local Government has been detained in the Dáil, perhaps Senators would agree to take items 3 and 4 until the Minister is available.

Agreed.

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