Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Jan 1941

Vol. 25 No. 3

Extension of Allotments Schemes—Motion.

Mr. Hogan

I move the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper, which reads:

That the Seanad is of opinion that the Government should introduce legislation at once which would extend to non-urbanised towns the benefits of the provisions of the Acquisition of Land (Allotments) Acts, 1926 and 1934.

I hope the Government regards this motion in the spirit in which it is submitted for discussion, that is the spirit of sincere helpfulness to avert or overcome the crisis which we are told might come upon us. That is the spirit in which it is offered. Ministers have definite information in regard to the matter of the supplies of human food in the country, and they have issued warnings. These have been issued by the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Supplies, the Minister for the Co-Ordination of Defensive Measures and last night the Taoiseach also made a very definite statement regarding the dangers that might come upon us. Compulsory tillage has been put into operation, and, side by side with it. appeals have been made by Ministers to the patriotism and sense of civic spirit of the farmers to help to avert or overcome what may come upon us in the autumn. Nobody can blame the Ministers for issuing that warning. They are doing their duty towards the community, and everybody hopes that their efforts will be fruitful.

Every person with any sense of civic responsibility and duty towards the community is prepared to help the Government to the fullest extent. But there is a section of the community whose position is always precarious, whose numbers are, unfortunately, likely to increase, and whose position in the coming months is likely to be more precarious. These people have households to maintain and they are anxious to discharge their duties towards their households. One cannot blame them if they feel that they would be much better prepared and safeguarded, and much more independent, if they could have a supply of foodstuff which they could call their own and which was brought into existence by their own efforts. Ministers and other public men are calling out from the house-tops that something should be done in the director of securing such a supply. One must regard these people as being up against a stone wall of circumstances. They have not land, seed, manures and, indeed, no means by which they can go into production in order to discharge their duties towards their households. I do not think that will be denied by anybody.

I am sure the Government and the members of the House are sympathetic but, whatever of sympathy, it cannot be denied that in any crisis that may arise the poor and necessitous are likely to suffer the most. At the recent meeting of the Dáil the Taoiseach said:—

"The poor are in a particularly difficult position. They, as a rule, have few alternative foods...."

Realising that, I put down this motion. We are now faced with a problem. What are we going to do to help to solve it? I am urging the Government to do something at once. I underline "at once" for obvious reasons, because if something is not done in the way of preparing the land for cultivation very soon, all our efforts to encourage increased production will not be very effective, and that is putting it very mildly.

The present Government and the previous Government have encouraged the policy of plot-holding and there are two Acts which make provision in that respect. The first is the Act of 1926 and in it the word "allotment" means a piece of land containing not more than one quarter of a statute acre let or intended to be let for cultivation by an individual for the production of vegetables mainly for consumption by himself and his family. The expresion "local authority" in the same Act mean and includes the council of a county borough or other borough or an urban district or the commissioner of a town to which the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854, or any part of that Act applies. The present Government introduced an amending Act and, fortunately or unfortunately, designedly, wilfully or otherwise, this paragraph occurs:

"Every word and expression to which a particular meaning is given by the Principal Act for the purposes of that Act has in this Act the meaning so given to it."

Section 7 of the amending Act says:

"The Minister for Agriculture with the sanction of the Minister for Finance may, as and when he shall think proper, make out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas a grant of such amount as he shall think proper",

and then, in paragraph (c), the section sets out:

"to any corporate body or unincorporated association approved of by the Minister for Agriculture which provides, otherwise than under the Principal Act, allotments for unemployed persons, for the purpose of enabling such body or association to supply, free of cost, to such unemployed persons, seeds, manures, and potato spraying materials for use in such allotments and to provide agricultural implements for use by such unemployed persons free of cost for the cultivation of such allotments."

No doubt, that was intended to be an improvement on the Act of 1926, and it certainly did give wide powers to the Minister for Agriculture. It gave him an opportunity of allowing associations to acquire land and, by giving manures, seeds, spraying materials and implements, he was in a position to help these people who were endeavouring to help themselves. Therefore, the policy of the Government has been to encourage plot-holding. Of course, Section 7 (1) (c) releases the Government from the responsibility of making up the difference in the rent between what the plot-holder pays to the local authority and what the local authority pays to the landowner. That is my opinion, but I may be wrong. It seems to me that it saves the Government from the responsibility of doing that.

I suggest that the policy of the Government in encouraging plot-holding is justified. Figures that are available how that in Vote 41 of the Appropriation Accounts for 1939-40 there was a grant, in connection with the Local Government Department, of £3,900. I take it that was to pay the difference between what the allottee paid in rent to the local authority and what the local authority paid to the landowner. The total amount spent was £3,947, so that there was a slight excess over what was voted. The figure in the Appropriation Accounts in regard to the Vote for the Department of Agriculture in 1939-40 was £8,667. That sum was voted and the amount spent was £7,805. Turning to the Estimates for 1940-41, it will be noted that in Vote 30, relating to agriculture, the total amount estimated under the sub-head for plots is £20,092, as against £10,422 in 1939-40. That shows there was practically twice as much voted in 1940-41 and, therefore, one is safe in assuming that the Government considered there was a demand for the extension of these plots and they provided money in order to see that that demand was supplied. Salaries, wages, allowances, and travelling expenses were £1,820, thus giving £18,272, for seeds, manures and the use of implements. In the Local Government Vote, to make up the loss in rent on allotments, a sum of £7,279 was voted, as against £3,800 in the previous year.

The report of the Department of Local Government and Public Health for 1938-39 sets out, on page 67, that during the year 4,555 allotments were provided for unemployed persons in 67 districts. There were 3,196 plots tilled by persons in receipt of unemployment assistance; 221 by persons in receipt of home assistance; 285 by persons employed on relief works, and 853 by persons in casual employment and with limited means. The 67 districts I have referred to do not represent all the local authorities entitled to avail of the provisions of the 1926 Act. There are between 70 and 80 authorities, urban and borough councils and town commissioners, that would be entitled to avail of the provisions of the Act. Sixty-seven of them availed of the provisions of the Act.

Now let us turn to what Dr. Ryan, the Minister for Agriculture, through his Department has to say. In 1939-40 his report, making reference to the Act of 1926 and the amending Act of 1934, states that allotments were operated at 76 centres, so you see that the number was increasing progressively. Unemployed allotment holders to the number of 4,846 as compared with 4,681 in the previous year were provided, free of cost, with seeds and manures and with the use of implements. There was, therefore, an increase of nearly 200 in the number of allotment holders in one year. At page 149 of the report of the Minister for Agriculture the following appears:—

Allotment schemes under these Acts were operated at each of the 76 centres shown in the tabular statement hereunder during the year under review and 4,846 unemployed allotment holders, as compared with 4,681 in the previous year, were provided, free of cost, with seeds and manures and with the use of implements. The number of centres showed an increase of three on the figure for the previous year.

In Cork there were 512 working, in Dublin 566, Athy 105, in Bray 147, in Carrick-on-Suir 130, in Tipperary 114, and in Tralee 134. That list, I might say in passing, is not at all complete because I know of urban councils who are availing of the provisions of the Act, whose names do not appear in the list. I am not blaming the compiler of the list because, possibly, the information was not available at the time the list was compiled. I do know that in Ennis there are 60 plot-holders. Speaking with the Chairman of the Ennis Urban Council yesterday, Senator Honan, he informed me that owing to the great increase in the number of applicants for plots the council would have to acquire more land this year. I am merely making the argument that there is a constantly increasing demand for plots and that can only express itself where there is provision made for the allocation of these plots.

In the Minister's own report, it is definitely stated that there is an ever-increasing demand for these plots. Why then does the Government stop at urban districts, at the county boroughs and at towns that have adopted the provisions of the Towns Improvements Act of 1854? Surely the Government knows as well as I do, and has far more information at its disposal than I have to show them, that there are scores, one might say hundreds, of non-urbanised towns, towns which have not even town commissioners, which stand just as much in need of the benefits provided by these Acts as urban districts and county boroughs? I find it very difficult in the case of non-urbanised towns to find a figure to show what is the real population of these towns. The Minister understands thoroughly that there are so many varying units that it is impossible almost to ascertain what is the population of any particular district. You have the dispensary district, the rural district and the superintendent registrar's district, none of which is coterminous with another. When I was endeavouring to find out what was the population in our non-urbanised districts I, therefore, found it impossible to obtain the exact figure.

I did, however, get some figures in the census list although the population is a good deal in excess of that given in the census as many of these towns have overflowed to a very large extent. I only went through the figures for some towns in the county in which I live, and I shall give the Minister the benefit of the figures I got. Let me say that people have written to me from many of these towns asking me to impress upon the Government the necessity of doing something to provide allotments in these areas. The populations of the various non-urbanised towns in the county are given as follows: Ennistymon, 1,202; Killaloe, 904; Miltown-Malbay, 788; Clarecastle, 580; Tulla, 544; Newmarket on Fergus, 450; Kildysart, 416; Scariff, 387; Corofin, 372; Sixmilebridge, 303; Lahinch, 261; Lisdoonvarna, 220; Liscannor, 217; Kilmihil, 215; and Kilfenora, 205. That list does not exhaust all the towns in Clare, but it is fairly representative. I want to impress upon the Minister, however, that these figures do not fully represent the population of these districts.

Again, when I endeavoured to find out the measure of unemployment in these towns I found myself up against a great difficulty because even where there are exchanges operating, the number of unemployed is not made out in respect of the towns. It is made out in respect of the exchange area. You have the Limerick exchange area, the Ennis exchange area and the Kilrush exchange area. Therefore, it is impossible for me to say with any degree of accurancy what the extent of unemployment in these towns really is. The only thing I can say is that I am quite certain it is extensive. There is an exchange operating in Ennistymon and another in Tulla but these, I take it, are sub-branches. In the statistics supplied by the Department of Industry and Commerce for the 30th December, 1940, the number of unemployed in Ennistymon is given as 797. I think that that number is clearly a misprint and that it should be 197. In Tulla the number is given as 169.

I pointed out earlier that the Minister for Agriculture has power under sub-section (1) (c) of Section 7 of the Amendment Act of 1934 to make grants to certain corporate bodies or unincorporated associations who acquired land, for the purpose of enabling them to supply unemployed persons free of cost with manures, seeds and implements. Some of us throughout the country thought that if there was any work at which a parish council might suitably try its prentice hand, here was work for it. Several people in various towns approached me in connection with this matter. I might mention one town in particular in which representations were made by the parish priest, the chairman of the local parish council. That is the town of Clarecastle, a small parish outside Ennis, where there is a little port into which coal, meal and flour came. There the main source of employment is carting these commodities to the town of Ennis. Now, I put this because it is, I think, a strong point in the case I am making. That port has been badly hit and is going to be hit most seriously in the future. Boats to that port are like angels— their visits are few and far between. The parish council made an application that the provisions of the amending Act, or of the original Act, be applied to that town, where there are 30 carters unemployed, each one of them having a horse and each one of them able to plough. The chairman of the parish council, the local parish priest, told me definitely that land would be made available. I got into touch with the Department of Agriculture and put the case as strongly as I could. I quoted the relevant sections of the Act of Parliament. And what do I get? I am not anxious to make a case against any Department or score any points whatever. I am only anxious to get the Government to act and, if the Government acts, I will be quite satisfied. I get this letter from the Department of Agriculture:—

21adh Mí Na Nodlag, 1940.

A Chara,

I am directed by the Minister for Agriculture to refer to your letter of 14th instant with enclosed copy of a resolution passed at a special meeting of Clarecastle Parish Council regarding the provision of seeds, manures, implements, etc., under the allotments scheme for rural districts in County Clare, and to state that grants could not be made under the Acquisition of Land (Allotments) Acts, 1926 and 1934 towards the cost incurred in providing land for allotments in any town which has not municipal government. In towns which, although they have not municipal government, have a considerable urban population, grants from State funds may be made under the Act of 1934 for the provision of seeds, manures, spraying materials and implements for allotments let to "unemployed persons" where suitable land has been made available for the allotments by local associations at their own expense and the question of making a grant in each such case has to be considered on its merits, regard being had to the number of "unemployed persons" in the town who have not any land of their own suitable for cultivation. I am to add that the Act is not intended to apply to unemployed persons in small towns or villages such as Clarecastle and that arrangements for the provision of allotments in such places could not be made.

The Minister regrets, therefore, that, after careful consideration the scope of the Acts cannot be extended, as suggested, to unemployed persons in rural areas.

That clearly cuts out a town of the size of Clarecastlc, with 30 unemployed persons, each of them able to plough his own piece of land and that land available. I do not know whether there has been a change of policy or not and, on looking up the report of the Minister for Agriculture I find that, on page 149, it says:—

"In the centres Dunmanway, Roanmore (Waterford), Dingle, Castleisland, Castlerea, Mountrath, Bailieboro' and Dublin (Mount Street Club) the land for allotments was provided by certain associations approved by the Minister under Section 7 (1) (c) of the Acquisition of Land (Allotments) (Amendment) Act, 1934. In each of the other centres mentioned the land for the allotments was made available by the respective local authorities."

That is, in each of the centres in the table, but in those towns I have mentioned — Dunmanway, Roanmore, etc.—they were provided by local associations and the Minister gave the necessary grants for the seeds and manures.

I read this letter from the Minister for Agriculture in which he says that due consideration is given to the number of unemployed and that he did not think in Clarecastle the number of unemployed was sufficient. I have looked up the table, in which is given the number of unemployed persons to whom seeds, etc., were provided, free of charge, and it says:—

"Dunmanway, 13; Roanmore, 17; Castlerea, 8; Bailieboro', 25."

When I contrast that with the 30 men in Clarecastle prepared to till their plots and pay for them, I ask why it is they are withheld from these benefits. I certainly cannot reconcile the attitude of the Minister on the two occasions.

The Minister probably will ask me how he is going to administer these grants, if he agrees to the provisions and agrees that there is necessity and demand for plots. Well, it ought to be within the ability of the Government Departments to find a way by which these grants may be administered. Of course, the county council is the statutory body, but it has subsidiary bodies. There are the county committees of agriculture and boards of health. These bodies certainly might be asked to do something in the matter. There are the agricultural instructors employed by each committee, and the home assistance officers employed by each board of health. Those may be asked to lend a hand. On the representations of a few ratepayers you build a cottage value for a few hundred pounds. In the same way, you might have a specific number of ratepayers in an area make an application and there may be somebody responsible whom the Minister could ask to administer this grant. There is plenty of legislation by which the land may be acquired—there is the Emergency Powers Act and the recent Act which the Minister put through here, the Relief of Unemployment Act. If parish councils, which have been boosted so much throughout the country, are to be in any way effective, here is an opportunity for them and an opportunity for the Minister to try their effectiveness and put them to do this work under their supervision.

I hope the Minister has disabused his mind of the idea that the times are normal. They are not normal: the abnormal has become the normal. I ask the Minister not to allow legal conservation or Civil Service conservatism to hold him up in dealing with this problem. The necessity of the people is fundamental, I suggest; and I also suggest that there is a big demand for these plots and that the Minister ought to take immediate action to meet that demand. As to its administration, I see no reason why the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Local Government could not issue an advertisement saying that the committees of agriculture would be prepared, say, on the 12th February or on any other day in February the Minister may mention, as early as possible, to consider applications for plots in the committee's area and also to consider proposals for the acquisition of land, having at the back all the time compulsory powers of acquisition and fixing, if you like, the price of land in those particular areas. There is no reason why that cannot be done, and there is no reason why means should not be provided by which these things may be done.

There is no use in trying to get away with a statement that the administrative side would be very difficult. Unless the Government throws its heart and soul into this and gives it full material and moral support, nothing will come of it. Therefore, I am asking the Government to give it that complete moral and material support to-day. January has gone; St. Brigid's Day is on us, and most of the land to be got will be old lea land which will have to be looked after immediately, and those taking it will have to go out and turn it immediately and get something done. I put it to the Minister that these people feel—and feel rightly —that if there is in July, August and September a shortage, or a danger of a shortage, they will be far more independent, if they are able to have at the back of their houses a pit of potatoes, some turnips, cabbage and other vegetables to tide them over the crisis, if it comes. These people are anxious to help and have a right to be afforded an opportunity to help, not only in their own interests, but in the interests of the community Therefore, I ask the Minister to give this sympathetic consideration to-day and to make provision to meet the urgent demand of these people.

Mr. Cummins

I beg to second the motion. In doing so, I feel convinced that the proposer has irrefutable arguments in favour of what he claims. I do think that the Government, in framing those two Acts originally, began at the wrong end of the stick, for the reason that, although the large centres of population held the largest number of unemployed, they were for the most part not agriculturally-minded. For the greater portion of their lives the inhabitants of these centres had been engaged in other operations, such as building, road work, sewerage, and works of that kind. I hold that the first people who should have been catered for were those who were really agriculturally-minded, and you will find these people, to the greatest extent, in the non-urbanised areas. What is more, you will find them situated amongst some of the richest lands in Ireland, such as some of the counties in Leinster, where you have practically virgin soil. I have in mind two or three counties immediately surrounding Dublin, and the County Dublin itself. In County Dublin you have farms of 500, 600 and 800 acres of land run by a few people, while on the borders of those lands you have, in most cases, the remnants of the people who were expelled from them in times of confiscation—people who have the real land spirit and the land ideology. Meath, of course, is an outstanding example. The population of Meath has decreased by almost one-half in the last 100 years, by confiscations and by driving the people out of the lands they held and converting them into huge ranches. To-day, you find one-third of the population of that county occupying some 4,700 cottages and owning less land, in small holdings or plots, than three of the largest holders in County Meath. That is an extraordinary state of affairs to have in this country.

Meath, possibly, would be the worst example, but there are other counties here almost as bad. In counties such as Limerick, Tipperary and most of Cork you have huge grazing lands, and on the borders of these lands you have, barely existing, the people whose ancestors were driven from these lands within the last century. All of that land is practically virgin soil and would require very little treatment, with the ordinary rotation of crops, for a year or two, except perhaps for the application of some artificial manures. In those areas also you find that there is a lot of unrecorded unemployment, because many of the people in these areas did not register at the time the Act came into operation. We know from experience that many of these people do not register, and there is often great difficulty in finding the locale of persons who are unemployed. You also find slums in these areas. As a matter of fact, in some of these small towns with a population of 500 or 600 people, you will find some of the worst slums in Ireland and some of the worst cases of unemployment. I think that, in farming the Acts, consideration should have been given to these matters. I think it is a terrible thing that you should have such conditions existing in counties such as Kildare and Meath, and other counties, where you have the best land in Ireland. As I have said, in Meath you have something like one-third of the population holding less land than one-twentieth of the population.

Now, as to the question of administration, I have heard complaints by the parish councils. I know of one town where there is a very excellent parish council, doing very excellent work. I am referring to the town of Kildare, where you have a very active parish council, both willing and able to do the work that is required. They did have some allotments there, but only a very small number. They were provided with a small number at their own expense. Now, I think that this should not have been the case. There are many people who would willingly avail of such an opportunity, both employed and unemployed. Of course, I hold that the unemployed should be given the first claim, and I also hold that the land should not be given indiscriminately, but there are people, earning small salaries or incomes, whose employment is precarious and who, at any moment, may be unemployed, and those people are anxious to take the land and pay for it at an economic price if the land is made available.

If the present Acts do not give sufficient power at the present moment, I suggest that an emergency Act could be introduced. After all, this is a time of great emergency, and at no time in the history of this country have you found the people so eager to make provision for themselves. I know that in some urban areas where land was made available for the unemployed, there was a feeling at first amongst some of these people that, since they had never turned soil in their lives they would not be able to turn their hands to agriculture, and that it would be better if only a few went in for it, but that spirit has gone now and a very different spirit prevails, and they now feel and know that they are capable of tilling the land. In one town, for instance, where there were 200 or 300 plots attached to cottages, all these plots are models of intense cultivation, and the cotters in some cases, after providing for themselves from their plots, can pay the ordinary cottier's rent of 4/- or 5/- a week.

I suggest that in this time of emergency, apart from any revolutionary change, the banks should take all that into consideration and should come to the assistance of the State in this matter. Depositors are paid 1 per cent. for the money they deposit in the banks in this country, and that money amounts to something between £150,000,000 to £180,000,000. On the other hand, if you want to borrow money from the banks, you are charged 5¼ and 6 per cent. That seems to be an anomalous state of affairs, and if the banks were to place at the disposal of the Government one-twentieth of people's money—money that is being lent to rival producers at the moment— it would go a long way not alone towards meeting this matter of the provision of allotments, but towards setting agriculture in this country on its feet. If that money were placed to the credit of the State, lent to the county councils or the bodies suggested by Senator Hogan, and given out, as it would be, to 95 per cent. credit-worthy people, I believe it would go a long way towards the resuscitation of agriculture and putting it on its feet.

With reference to this question of loans or grants at the moment, I deprecate the suggestion that might be made that I am out for borrowing or getting something for nothing, but I do feel that many of the farmers will not be able to carry out the duties which the Government is asking them to carry out if something is not done in the matter of loans. Again, I say that the banks should seriously take up this matter and that a meeting should be held between the representatives of agriculture and industry and the banks, and that some scheme of financing should be devised such as has been done in other agricultural countries like New Zealand, Denmark and so on. I do not wish it to be thought that any criticism I have offered has been offered in anything but a spirit of cooperation and in the hope and belief that a way can be and should be found out of the difficulty if the Government tackles the task with the serious intention of solving this question.

Mr. Hawkins

I think the first thing we should do is to pay a tribute to those public authorities and boards of assistance throughout the country that have availed of the facilities offered by the Acts up to the present. They have given new life to our unemployed and shown them that they can do something for themselves. They have given them the opportunity to produce sufficient food for themselves and their families through the winter months. The unemployed themselves appreciate that, and as far as Galway City and the unemployed there who were provided with plots last year are concerned, they are a credit to the people who interested themselves in securing the plots for them and a credit to themselves. Senator Hogan was very reasonable in his presentation of the case. I would be prepared to go much further, and to ask for a greater extension of facilities, as it is about time the Government took steps to impress upon the people the fact that we cannot continue as if we were living in normal times. A proposal of this kind, to carry out national work, should not be held up by any regulations or by red-tape. Ministers have appealed to the people to grow sufficient food and have impressed upon them, that if that is not done, the country may be faced with starvation. Should there be a food shortage nobody would suffer more than the very poor, and particularly unemployed people with large families.

As these people are willing to avail of any opportunities to help themselves nothing should stand in the way, money or any other consideration. Apart from the advantage of producing food this work would have good moral effects. Tea, I am sorry to say, has become practically an essential food with poor people, but now that is going to be rationed, there is an opportunity to replace it by more substantial food. As regards the administration expenses, as Senator Hogan pointed out, there are parish councils in every county and that is work in which they would be prepared to help. In rural areas compulsory powers for the acquisition of land will not be necessary. In many places I am confident that parish councils and other organisations will be able to get land voluntarily. That is one way of helping on this good work. Then comes the question of securing seeds and manures. If seeds were provided I think implements would be available locally, and perhaps manures. It would be a good thing, of course, if seeds or manures could be procured for those requiring them at reduced prices. I would be prepared to extend the powers that the Government has to unemployed labourers and also to occupants of labourers' cottages. In many places only a portion of these cottage plots are tilled, the remainder being in grass. It may be thought that that was due to laziness. When conditions are investigated, however, it will probably be found that the tenants are unemployed and that even if they were willing to till the plots they had not the necessary means. In cases of that kind free seeds might be given.

I know places in County Galway where work of that kind is catered for by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, but under present conditions the resources of such societies are strained owing to the great demands made upon them. I am afraid that voluntary organisations will not be able to meet further demands of that type at present. I would go even further than Senator Hogan, as I would be prepared, if local conferences of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul or parish councils acquired land for tillage, to assist them, on the understanding that the produce would be distributed amongst the local poor. The Government might give assistance there by giving seeds and manures at reduced prices. I do not think that would be too much to ask. In Galway, last year, we had 148 plot-holders, and this year the number has been doubled. The corporation, with the assistance of the Catholic Young Men's Society and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, co-operated in that work. The difficulty there was to acquire suitable land. The Minister should intervene in cases like that and if he has not sufficient power to take land under the Land Act of 1934, he should avail of the emergency powers. In the present tillage drive an attempt should be made to change the tastes of our people from some foods to which they have become accustomed, food that is produced here. In that respect greater use might be made of the schools to educate the children as to the advantages of homegrown food.

In the present emergency the Government should not lose sight of the work that might be done to bring about the necessary change through the national schools, particularly by the teachers, in view of the fact that we have already people campaigning about "black bread". In the schools the children could be told of the advantages of eating pure wheaten bread. As the tillage campaign affects the welfare of the country generally, I ask the Minister to draw the attention of the Minister for Agriculture to the need of getting the Civic Guards to inspect every holding. The present system of inspection is too slow. The Civic Guards should be instructed to inspect holdings to see if a real attempt is being made to get on with tillage work.

Mr. Tunney

I came here specially to support Senator Hogan's motion. As a matter of fact, I was disappointed that the motion was not dealt with last week, because I feel that it is one of the most important motions tabled in this House since I became a member. I appreciate the way Senator Hogan put his case, and I hope it will have the desired effect. We listen on the wireless night after night to appeals to produce food. Now, I am going to take advantage of this opportunity to put before the Minister who is present, though he is not really the Minister responsible, the position in the area in which I reside. Our case is different from many of those put forward. I reside in an area which has some of the best arable land in the country. It is a sad state of affairs that in the 12 miles from Dublin to Ashbourne the only people, with the exception of three or four, who till any of this arable land are the cottage-holders with an acre of land attached to their houses.

I happen to be a member of the parish council which some time ago took up the matter of acquiring land They did not want that land for nothing and they did not want free grants; they were willing to pay a fair rent. But I am sorry to say that they could not get one acre of land in that area except at a rent which they could not afford to pay. During the last fortnight I myself have been trying to acquire land in north Dublin from the banks, which Senator Cummins mentioned. The greater portion of this land is held by the banks. I have gone so far as to offer £6 an acre for land as I am personally prepared to till 40 acres. I could not get one acre because the banks can get £7 and £8 an acre for it. That land is very convenient to the city. We heard last night about the difficulty of transport. The food required for the poor of Dublin could be carried on people's backs from this land if the food were available. But we cannot get the land.

Under the compulsory tillage scheme they are compelled to till some of this land. The only part of the land you can get is the worst end of it. The parish council in Finglas have been unable to acquire any land suitable for tillage and I, myself, although I am prepared to till land, was only able to get a small portion. I hope that the Government will bring pressure to bear on the banks, as the banks are the stumbling block. In my electoral division there are thousands of acres of land which people are ready to take at a reasonable rent. Even when these people are compelled to have some of the land tilled they will not give it to the local people. That is a terrible state of affairs when we remember that in the next few years there may be many people hungry in the city. The Minister who is present is not the Minister who deals with that matter, but he ought to bring it before the Government.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. Ruttledge)

The banks are not exempted from the provisions of the Enforcement of Tillage Order.

Cathaoirleach

In any event, the matter has nothing to do with the motion before the House.

Mr. Tunney

Even if it is a little outside the motion, it deals with the question of producing food for the people. The banks manage to make out that the land in our area is accommodation land and the amount they are tilling is very small. There is another matter which may not be quite relevant to the motion, but it has to do with the survival of this nation, and that is, that it is hardly fair that people who get land from the Land Commission, some of them may be cottage holders who get five or six acres, are not compelled to till portion of that land. In County Dublin people have got land from the Land Commission the all-in cost of which would work out at about £1 per acre. Because they can get an easy living otherwise, or because they can get £7 per acre for letting that land in grass, they do not till it. I should like to distinguish between people who were given holdings and people who have put their life savings into the purchase of a holding.

Cathaoirleach

That is a matter which might be relevant in a debate on the Land Commission or on some special motion. It is not relevant to the motion now before the House.

Mr. Tunney

As a member of the county council, I hope that something will be done about the question of providing allotments for the unemployed. In the County Dublin the unemployed are willing to work and provide for their families if they get a chance. I hope Senator Hogan's motion will be passed unanimously and that it will have the desired effect.

Mr. Madden

There are just one or two points which I want to make. This discussion has focussed my mind on one matter. It may have been very illuminating to listen to professors for three or four days discussing matters that were not vital in view of the dangers which, it is indicated, we may have to face in the future as a result of this war. I do not want to say anything about professors, but I would say of professors who have come under my observation that the writing of many of them is abominable, that their spelling of English is erratic and that their conception of mathematics is disgraceful. Professors took up the time of the House this week and last week discussing these matters, but the matter now before the House is of supreme, vital and fundamental importance.

Mr. MacDermot

Only one professor spoke.

Mr. Madden

I suppose the Senator might be placed in that category, too. Judging by his accent, he must have received some academic training. I am afraid that we in this country expect too much from Government aid, and it may seem strange to say that we ought to do something ourselves. My county council last week received a letter from the Department indicating that we ought to visualise our responsibilities as elected representatives of the people and do something towards the greater production of food this year. I am glad that this motion has been brought forward because there was one section of the community who were not included by my council when they agreed to certain commitments on Saturday last, subject to the sanction of the Ministry, to help other sections of the community. Visualising our responsibility as a local county parliament elected by the people, and anxious to give all the help that we could to the policy of the Government to encourage an increase of food production, we adopted a certain scheme.

We know that, in the main, the farmers are badly off. We know that because of the intensive pressure we have to bring to bear on them to pay their rates and other commitments. The report of the Registrar-General is definite and clear evidence of the condition of agriculture. Rural conditions are such that there are no marriages in the rural districts, with the result that schools have to be closed and our race is disappearing. If you meet a hungry man and say to him: "Go n-eirigheadh do bhóthar leat", that will not fill his stomach or give him a good breakfast. These are extraordinary times, and we have had evidence of that from Ministers. We read the statement which the Taoiseach broadcast last night. I think that the Taoiseach and other prominent people have said several times that they would even prefer a revival of the Irish language to national freedom. I think the preservation of the race is infinitely more important.

The Limerick County Council have asked the sanction of the Minister for the scheme to which I have referred, under which it is proposed to disburse from £10,000 to £15,000 in sums ranging from £20 to £5 amongst farmers as well as labourers who have cottage plots. We will be the guarantors for the money. The Minister will give his sanction, and with that money we will be in a position to bring within the ambit of this scheme every conceivable farmer, even those with a high valuation, but not the highest, down to the cottage holder, and the extremely poor, on the production of evidence that their rates have been paid. That will apply to all sections. We will provide them with wheat, oats, barley and potato seeds. As guarantors that will cost the county council at least £15,000. I regard it as a magnificent effort on the part of the county council, and am proud to be a member of a body which has such a fine sense of its responsibility, one that has risen in such a magnificent way to meet the demands of the present situation. That effort is to be contrasted with the action of those who have been hampering the efforts of the Government. If one is to judge by some of the attacks that have been made on the Government during this, one of the most critical periods in our history, all that one can say is that some of those who have made the attacks are only fit for Grangegorman Mental Hospital.

Mr. Hogan

I deprecate the suggestion that I have made any attack on the Government.

Mr. Madden

I said that attacks had been made, but I mentioned no names. The Limerick County Council, in this scheme, are making provision to relieve a section of the people that they are not under any statutory obligation to relieve. The council will be able to provide them with money to purchase seeds. Those people have no land. I am aware, of course, that under various Acts land can be acquired compulsorily. It is not always possible to do that, and sometimes it might be injudicious to do so. The Minister may be surprised to hear that within the last week I, in my capacity as an auctioneer, have set 47 acres of land for farmers—land that was available not far from Limerick City. I know another 40 acres that are available. As a board of health we have decided to set 23 acres of land that we had acquired for a site for a regional hospital. It is a surprising thing that it was extensive farmers who, in the main, applied to the board of health for the use of that land. It was set to them within the last week. I am in a position to tell the Minister that there are 40 or 50 acres more available. This land is owned by farmers who are in the invidious position that they cannot till it themselves. One is a lady advanced in years. I think she has reached the age of 80, and is just waiting for the call of the trumpet. She has no means of tilling her land.

I want to assure the Minister that if he exercises the emergency powers conferred on him by the Oireachtas he will be able to secure plenty of land in the County Limerick, much of it in the neighbourhood of the city, which it is not possible for the owners to till at the moment. He can get all that land to accommodate the class of people referred to by Senator Hogan. We have brought practically every other section of the rural community into our scheme, and if, as late as Saturday, I had known of, or thought of, the particular section now referred to, we could, I think, with the co-operation of the Minister, have hammered out some means whereby that section also would be brought in. If the Minister is prepared to respond to the appeal made by Senator Hogan and make provision for the class of people that he referred to, people who are prepared to work, then I think that we as a county council would be prepared to accommodate them with seeds and money. If we are enabled to do that we will, I think, be rendering a very useful service to the country.

Mr. MacCabe

I agree with the motion, but I am afraid its introduction was delayed too long. It should have been introduced a month ago. The remarks of the last speaker would seem to bear that out. It is well known that within the last three weeks a great portion of the land of the country has been set in conacre. Farmers knew that they had to till a certain portion of their land, and consequently they set it to people who were prepared to take it for tillage. I am afraid there is no land available at the moment. I do not agree with some of the remarks made about urban workers, because I have no hesitation in saying that if they had the plots they would not work them. The position is quite the opposite with rural workers. They have always been accustomed to work their plots, and if they could get land they would be prepared to work it now as they have always done.

My experience is that rural workers till their little plots. Urban workers, on the other hand, have no liking for the spade or the shovel or for any form of farm work. I am sorry to have to say that and hope I may be wrong, and that Senator Hogan and his colleague, who seconded the motion, are right. Perhaps this emergency has brought about a change in their attitude towards farm work, and that they are now prepared to be up and doing and to help, as far as possible, in the production of food for the people. In some counties you have not a very big number of large farms. The small farmer, the man with ten, 12 or 14 acres of land, is prepared to take conacre from the larger farmer, and is anxious to produce as much food as possible for human and animal use. Without any compulsion, the small farmer was always prepared to do that because he is the real worker in this country. In his desire to do that, we all know that he has suffered from many handicaps. I hope the statement that land was not made available for him will not be censored. The suggestion that I would make to the Government is that where there are large farms they should exercise the compulsory powers they possess and have those farms worked by people who are willing to work them. If the Government are not prepared to do that, then I think they are not doing their duty. If there should be a scarcity of food, there will be nobody to blame for that but the Government, due to their failure to exercise the compulsory powers conferred on them by the Oireachtas. Consequently, I say the whole nation will blame the Government. The small farmer, as I have said, is prepared to do his work and so also are the workers in the rural areas. They should get plots at any cost. They should be provided with any land that has not, so far, been set. On the other hand, I have not the slightest hope that the urban workers will respond to any such appeal.

Donnchadh O hEaluighthe

Nílim-se chun morán do rá ar an gceist seo, ach ba mhaith liom freagra do thabhairt ar chúpla rud adubhairt san diosboireacht so. The Dublin Municipal Council did not wait until the present emergency arose to realise their duty as far as the provision of plots is concerned. This is a matter to which the Dublin Corporation have devoted a great deal of attention for a number of years past. They have provided plots for quite a large number of plot-holders around the city. In addition, they provide nice plots for their tenants in their housing schemes. I did not quite understand the remarks of my friend Senator McCabe when he said that, in his opinion, urban workers would not till their plots. Our experience is that the people who have been taken out to the cottages in the suburbs of the city from the most squalid surroundings, from the terrible basements and slums of the city, have been willing to till the plots attached to their cottages, have been active in doing so and these plots are a credit to them.

Mr. Hogan

That is a change.

Mr. Healy

If Senator McCabe has any doubt about that statement, I will show him any day he pleases the result of the efforts of these poor people who never knew anything about agricultural work, to do their duty in respect of these plots. I should have said at first that I am in full sympathy with the motion, which I think Senator Hogan put forward in a very reasonable and reasoned manner, and I am sure the Minister will give it due consideration. Senator Hogan asked why the legislation stopped with the municipal councils, urban councils and town commissioners, and why it had not been extended. I am not conversant with county council work. Senator Hogan, who is a member of a county council, is, and so are a number of other Senators. My activities are confined to the city, but would the explanation be that the agricultural labourers' cottages supply the want further out?

Mr. Hogan

Oh, no.

Mr. Healy

In going through the country, one sees a number of labourers' cottages, some with land well tilled and others with land untilled. With regard to Senator McCabe's point that urban dwellers will not till their land, whereas rural dwellers will, I do not know whether the Senator goes home by the Ashbourne road, but, if he does, I advise him to look at a couple of the cottages on the righthand side of the road just beyond Ashbourne, and he will find that there is not a cabbage plant planted near them.

Mr. McCabe

I know a town—I do not want to mention the name of it— in which these plots were attached to lovely houses and in which the local authority was agitating for years to get the people to take the weeds out of the plots.

Mr. Healy

I am giving a definite case of cottages, not very far from Senator Tunney's home. At least, that was the position some few years ago. With regard to the point raised by Senator McCabe as to plots being left untilled, there was an Act passed in this House not very long ago called the Acquisition of Derelict Sites Act. I was in favour of it because, as I then said, these derelict sites gave our city a bad appearance. In connection with any plots left untilled by cottage holders around Dublin, or in the urban districts, I suggest to the members of local authorities to take keen note of any of the people who are so neglectful as not to do their duty in the present crisis. I think the number of people who do not properly till the plots attached to their cottage are very few. We are told that there is a black sheep in every flock, and possibly there are a few black sheep amongst these people, and it would be wise if members of local bodies, and most Senators are associated with local bodies, would take note of the tenants who do not, and will not, do their duty in the present crisis.

In his opening remarks, Senator Hogan said that local authorities or local associations could carry out this desirable work, and Senator Cummins said that there was a very active parish council doing excellent work in the town of Kildare. That, I think, is an unurbanised town?

Mr. Cummins

Yes.

Mr. Healy

There is an old saying that God helps those who help themselves, and if this excellent parish council exists in Kildare, there is nothing, so far as I know, to prevent them from organising and developing under the Plotholders Act. I think that such a proposal would get every consideration from the Minister.

Mr. Cummins

The land is there but we cannot get it.

Mr. Hogan

Did the Senator hear what I said in respect of Clarecastle?

Mr. Healy

We have an old Irish proverb which says: Is furust do dhuine dall leithscéal d'fháil—it is easy for an unwilling person to find excuses. I do not suggest that Senator Cummins is unwilling, but it is always possible to find excuses in such matters. The remarks I have made with regard to the parish council in Kildare might possibly apply equally to the excenent body which Senator Hawkins has in Galway. In this city, at all events, we have done our duty and we did not wait for the emergency to come. We have provided plots for years for the poor people, and not alone have we provided plots for but we have provided plots in addition to the cottages, and the poor people are doing their best to till them.

Mr. O'Dwyer

I should like to recommend the motion to the favourable consideration of the Minister because I believe that there is a great necessity at present for the extension as far as possible to the small towns and villages of the country of the system of allotments given in urban areas. Unlike the position in Cavan, Senator McCabe's county, there is plenty of land available in the greater part of the country which could readily be taken over for this purpose, and if all these villages were provided with allotments under this scheme, it would give a great deal of work to the workers. I have no doubt that, in 99.9 per cent. of the cases in our county, these plots would be well tilled. I agree with Senator Hawkins when he says that no question of expense should hold up an extension of the scheme. It could be worked by the parish councils, where these exist, and it could be worked very efficiently through the county councils or boards of health, without the necessity for setting up any very elaborate machinery. It would be quite easy also to arrange for the provision of seeds to the workers. I should like to express my agreement also with the statement of Senator Tunney, who said that it is not always possible for a parish council to secure the land. That has been the experience in some counties and it has also been the experience in my part of the country. I should like, in addition to that, to say that the tillage regulations should be enforced as quickly as possible this year in view of the great necessity for providing foodstuffs for the people.

Mrs. Concannon

There may be administrative difficulties in accepting Senator Hogan's motion as it stands. The fact that it calls for legislation would imply a delay which, I think, would be fatal, but I am certain that the spirit of the motion is acceptable to this House and I trust it will be acceptable to the Minister and to the Government. It is particularly acceptable to the women and it is on behalf of the women I should like to say a few words.

In his very telling address, Senator Hogan spoke of the unemployed whose backs are up against the stone wall of circumstance. I think that there is nobody whose back is up so much against the cold, stone wall of circumstance as that of the woman whose husband is unemployed. It is on behalf of the women in the homes of the unemployed and in the hope of securing for them some of the help which an increased number of allotments will provided that I am speaking. Here, I may mention a matter which, perhaps, escaped the attention of the Minister. I heard it from Senator Hawkins, who made a special study of this question of allotments. He said that in Galway some men who had allotments as unemployed persons last year were called up to the Army and cannot this year be reckoned as unemployed. In these cases, the plots have been taken from them, although their wives were quite willing to work them and, indeed, had assisted in working them. In Galway, one of the pleasantest sights is that of the women and children working in the evenings on their plots. That demonstrates the great social value of the allotment system, but I do not want to stress that at the present time because it is a matter which concerns all times. Now, however, we must think of everything in terms of the emergency.

The present condition of affairs was brought before us very vividly last night in the Taoiseach's broadcast. He spoke, very relevantly, of the value of potatoes in the crisis. That is where the question of allotments enters. If you read Canon Peadar O Laoghaire's books, you will learn how, in old times, the period between the time when the old potatoes came to an end and the time when the new crop came in was known as "Hungry July." There need now be no "Hungry July" because the potatoes raised in the plots are for the most part early potatoes and they will bring us over the hungry months. The potatoes, cabbages and onions which can be raised on these plots can be of vital importance this year. I should like to stress a point made by Senator Hawkins. He spoke about the importance of bringing home to the people, through the medium of the schools or some other medium, the necessity for a change-over in food habits and for impressing upon them some knowledge of food values. I should like to mention, in that connection, a matter which has often impressed me. The food value of the potato does not consist in the potato generically. Special kinds of potatoes have a much higher food value than others and, in one part of the country, the health of the people deteriorated because, for reasons of export, they got into the habit of growing the wrong class of potatoes from the nutritive point of view. I hope the Ministry will give some attention to that point and that the people will be taught to use, with the most satisfactory dietetic results, the food which will be produced in these cottage gardens. That is the sort of thing which everybody will be anxious to learn. Vocational committees throughout the country have arranged a series of lectures on food values for animals. Why not provide lectures on food values for people? This may not be germane to this issue, but it is a thing that should not be forgotten.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. Ruttledge)

We can all approach this motion with sympathy. I know the motive which Senator Hogan had in mind in bringing the motion forward. It is an effort, on his part, to meet the present emergency by facilitating an increase in tillage and also to relieve the distress amongst people who may not be able to provide themselves with the wherewithal to purchase the necessary foodstuffs. Listening to some of the speakers, one would imagine that plot-holders' legislation was only a very recent thing and that, up to 1926, when it was introduced—there was a subsequent Act in 1934—there were no powers whatever in public bodies to acquire land for plots or allotments. That is not the position. The Labourers Acts were in operation here since about 1883 to enable public bodies to acquire tracts of land through the country. Whether rural councils at that time or their successors down to the present have been asleep with regard to that is another matter. I suggest they have not. Any county council or, subsequently, the board of health, under the Labourers Acts was enabled to acquire tracts of land compulsorily for allotment amongst labourers, the price to be fixed, of course, by arbitration. Listening to some of the Senators, one would imagine that there was no such provision. That provision has been availed of largely in recent times. Sixteen boards of health in this country have availed of it to acquire tracts of land in their counties to provide allotments for labourers in those counties. Amongst these sixteen boards of health is Senator Hogan's board of health in County Clare. I think it has acquired something like 24 such tracts in County Clare to provide allotments for the people.

I believe there may have been some misunderstanding in certain boards of health as to how land acquired under the Labourers Act could be availed of or how it might be let. When this motion was first mooted, we proposed bringing to the notice of boards of health that they might make arrangements to extend that and that they were not compelled to charge what is known as an economic rent, that they could charge what is called an appropriate rent. That would, to a considerable extent, have met the position of areas that do not come under the Allotments Acts. When the Allotments Act was introduced in 1926 you had what was considered an anomalous position, that in the counties they could provide allotments but in the towns they could not and it was not an oversight then any more than it was an oversight in 1934 that the people in the smaller villages were not catered for. The 1926 Act provided for compulsory acquisition but it did not provide for subsidy and the 1934 Act filled what was considered a gap by enabling subsidies to be granted.

In relation to areas outside the urban authorities, or town commissioners, or town boroughs, one may ask what was the purpose in providing, say, free seeds in those areas. A very different situation exists in what are called urban districts from what would exist in smaller towns. Conditions of living are regarded as higher, more expensive at any rate, in urban districts or districts of bigger population. It is more difficult to get accommodation, and land around those areas is much dearer. But the factor that had to be borne in mind, particularly at that time, was that those Allotments Acts would be very difficult to administer unless you had an organisation there to administer them because the provisions of the Allotments Acts require (1) that a person must be in receipt of unemployment benefit, or (2) that he must be in receipt of unemployment assistance, or (3) that he is in receipt of home assistance or outdoor relief, or (4) that he is a person who has not been employed continuously for more than 24 hours in any one week during the preceding 12 months, or that his total earnings through employment in that casual way do not exceed £39 in urban districts or £52 in county boroughs. Before the allotment can be granted under the Allotments Acts the authorities must be satisfied that the person getting that allotment complies with one or other of these provisions. That is the difficulty we have in approaching this matter and extending it to the other districts that are now suggested here, that is, to extend it all over the country.

We have growing up here parish councils that may take on the position that they might even perhaps in some way be regarded as semi-local authorities, but at the time that these Acts were passed there was no such organisation that one could fall back on. Where you recoup for any loss that may be occasioned in the letting of the land—you may provide for recoupment in regard to seeds, manure and implements—then the central authority has to account for that and is always subject to the Comptroller and Auditor-General who may take up and examine any particular scheme and see that those conditions have been complied with in the allocation of any of those allotments. You have here in this State, I think, something like 283 villages with a population of over 250, which are not urbanised. There are 88 also that are urbanised, and with regard to those 88 I think all, except six, have put allotment schemes into operation. Among those towns that are urbanised, county boroughs or towns in which there are town commissioners, there is only one town that we know of, that is Tuam, where in this year at any rate any powers of compulsory acquisition had to be resorted to. So far as the difficulty about acquisition is concerned, I personally do not think there is going to be any difficulty in getting land at the present time because, in connection with land around all the smaller towns, for cow parks and other purposes, we know that when the occupant of that grazing land is entitled to get an allowance under the tillage regulations for the land that he lets for tillage in allotments it certainly is a great incentive to him to let if he is not inclined to till himself. In that way I believe there will be no difficulty whatever in getting land available.

What is troubling me and what is troubling the Department of Agriculture is the difficulty and the cost of administration. It is not a want of sympathy. There is whole-hearted sympathy with the motion itself. You must take the position that the board of health is the only authority that can administer this and if the board of health is going to take on the responsibility of administering this scheme in small towns widely scattered over its area—and I am thinking of big counties —and if it is going to take on this job of dealing with these small towns with the machinery that it has at its disposal at present, it will have a very difficult task. But under the Allotments Acts the responsibility does not rest there. The responsibility rests on the Department of Local Government and on the Department of Agriculture to see that every allotment is vouched for. At the present time when allotments are being made in the towns throughout the country they have to come before our Department, they have to be examined and certified, which means inspection and so on. From time to time I have heard criticisms not only in this House but in the other House about this country being overrun with inspectors. Well, whether we like it or not, as I see it at the moment —I am only trying to see some way in which it could be avoided—if we are going to make this extension, not having sufficient local machinery to assist us, the administration is certainly going to be very expensive.

I have been trying to find some means by which we could endeavour to meet this motion, and avoid that expense. Every time a party applies for an allotment, we have to certify that he comes under one or other of the four heads I have mentioned. I may be asked: "Why be so strict about that?" Well, there have not been very many cases brought to our notice, but there have been some instances where attempts have been made to get allotments in this way by persons, in some cases sons of small farmers, who were unemployed at the particular time the allotments were given, but were employed a day or two afterwards and continued in employment. That kind of thing has been tried from time to time, and it is the necessity for a check that has been our difficulty. I have been looking for a method by which we might deal with this problem and avoid that inspection which is necessary and for which we are responsible when we have to deal with Comptroller and Auditor-General. I was wondering how far an extension by the boards of health of those allotments under the Labourers Act could meet the Senator's motion. The losses to a local body would not be considerable. Let them charge an appropriate rent, and let us see it we can get from the Department of Agriculture some recoupment in regard to seeds and manures. So far as the demand itself is concerned—Senator Hogan has certain cases in mind, and I am quite satisfied that they are genuine—in our Department it is very small at the present time. I am certainly pleased and gratified to see the way in which parish councils in certain parts of the country have taken this up, and I am afraid that a move along the lines of this motion is going to stultify parish councils in what I regard as a very laudable activity indeed. I have seen it in Mullingar, where the parish council have got together on their own initiative, asked for subscriptions in the locality, got land and allocated it among the people in need of it. I think that is a magnificent spirit, and I hope that this resolution—although I know that the spirit and the intention behind it are laudable too—is not going to take away from parish councils the effort that some of them are putting into this matter now, that is to rely on their own resources, to try to do the best they can, and interest themselves in activities such as those to which I have referred.

It has been mentioned here that associations, incorporated or unincorported, can get grants for seeds, manures and implements from the Department of Agriculture. That is so, and that was an aspect of their activity which I had hoped would be availed of when those parish councils had got going in areas where there was no local authority; in other words, no urban council. town commissioners or otherwise. I had hoped that they might use their association for that purpose, but, as Senator Hogan has said, it is true that it has not been the practice of the Department of Agriculture to grant those free seeds and manures in towns not exceeding a population of 1,000. I have been asking people who are au fait with those matters, and I think that has really been due to the want of a demand for seeds, manures and implements in towns.

As I say, of course there is also the question of administration, which is so difficult in the smaller areas. As some Senator has said, it is probably already almost too late, but if the blame rests on anybody it certainly does not rest on us, because there was no demand from those local bodies in respect of the powers that were already there. The case that I thought might be made here to-day was that there were no powers to acquire land. Senator Cummins did, to some extent, make that case, but that has not been our experience. I know the position in Kildare— there might have been some difficulty in getting land there—but I think with the compulsory tillage in and around Kildare the Senator will find no difficulty whatever in getting all the land he wants. As I said, I thought that might be the case that would be made. Our experience has been that we are getting letters in the Department asking us whether there is any possibility of plots being taken in their areas.

Mr. Cummins

On a point of explanation in regard to Kildare, I should like to say that I have all the land I want in my own town of Newbridge.

Mr. Ruttledge

I was only thinking of the stud farms around Kildare. I assure the Senator that so far as my Department and the Department of Agriculture are concerned we are anxious to meet this matter as best we can, but I am afraid that the costs of administering it and the difficulties of it certainly make it practically impossible in the present year. I do not think there is much possibility that we can put it into operation in the present year, but when it does come to putting it into operation there must be some line drawn somewhere as to what you are going to call a village, because this is only stepping on to the point where we are going to be in the position that the small farmer in this country must be supplied with free seeds, manures and everything else. That is what we are tending to, because when you come down to the small villages, and you are not prepared to do anything on your own but rely on the central fund for everything, then you are gradually coming down from the small town to the small townland and so on until you come down to the individual. There must be some suggestion made as to where the line is to be drawn in regard to the population of towns where this thing can be put into operation.

There is no difficulty in getting land at a reasonable price for tillage and, with regard to trying to provide seeds and manures in necessitous cases in those towns, I think that is as far as we should be asked to go, and that is as far as one could ask the Department of Agriculture to go. The amount involved is not going to be considerable —I refer to the cost of supplying these things. If you are to prevent abuse you must have inspection and the maintenance of that type of check; there is no other way to avoid it.

Mr. Hogan

The Minister approached this matter as if we were living in normal times. I asked him to try to enter into the atmosphere that would surround abnormal times, but he did not. He told us a lot about existing legislation. Nobody knows better than the Minister how difficult it is, how slow, tedious and irritaing it is, to acquire land for plots under the legislation to which he referred. It is a slow, tedious and almost impossible process; he knows that quite well and that legislation would not be at all suitable under prevailing conditions. The Minister said that the administration would be costly. He said that there are over 200 villages with a certain population, outside the urbanised areas, that come under the provisions of the Towns Improvements Act of 1854. It cost the Department of Agriculture £1,800 to administer the grant in respect of 76 areas. I venture to say that the officers who were concerned were merely seconded from other work in the Department, and that amount only represents the time that they give to that particular work. I suggest that four or five times £1,800 would administer the allotment scheme quite easily in all the other towns in Éire.

The Minister talked about the difficulty of administration, such as when certifying whether a person fulfils any of the qualifications set out and whether that person should or should not get a plot. Surely that is not a difficult matter. It is quite easy to get information from the home assistance officer or give some people authority to certify such as is given to priests and professional men in other connections. Administration should not be so very difficult. The Minister said that his Department has not been bombarded with applications. Possibly it has not been, and possibly the few applications sent to the Minister for Agriculture were so treated that they have deterred many other people from making application. I have given instances of unemployed carters who have horses capable of ploughing. These men would be willing to pay for the land, but the Department of Agriculture tells them: "You are not the people we had in mind; you are unemployed, no doubt, but we cannot consider you." I am sorry the Minister has taken up that attitude. On the other hand, I am glad that there is a clear appreciation of the necessity for this in the minds of the Senators who spoke to-day. I am glad that they see the desirability, the necessity and the possibility of what is asked for in the motion. However, the Minister has indicated that he does not conceive how it can be done this year. I wonder does that connote that it can be done some other year and that some greater consideration may be given to it this year and in coming years?

Mr. Ruttledge

Something may be done this year, but not as much as is suggested in the Senator's motion, and something more may be done next year.

Mr. Hogan

I believe the Minister is sympathetic but, as the spear-head of his Department, he has to make the case that it cannot be done because the Department considers that it cannot. I am not putting this motion to a vote, because of the attitude taken up towards it and the promise that the Minister has given us that sympathetic consideration will be given to the subject this year and further action will be taken next year. It has been stated —not by the Minister—that urban workers are slow and unwilling to use their plots, and it has also been stated, though not definitely, that they are too lazy to work their plots. I have seen plots cultivated by urban workers and they would be a credit to men who have been employed in farming for 20 years or more. I have seen plots that are a credit to the plot-holders and to the councils and I do not think that statement should be let go unchallenged.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.