Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Mar 1941

Vol. 25 No. 5

National Register of Consumers—Motion.

Mr. M. Hayes

I move:—

That, in the opinion of the Seanad, a national register of consumers should be prepared forthwith with a view to the immediate rationing of certain essential commodities.

This motion is put down, Sir, because our experience of recent times indicates that essential commodities are becoming scarce and because more and more difficulties are being experienced, particularly by the wage-earning section of the community, in obtaining normal supplies or even smaller than normal supplies of these commodities. The intention of the motion is that whatever is at the disposal of the country and whatever our supplies are they shall be equitably and properly distributed. I think there will be no difference between any members in this House on that particular matter, that we should have an equitable distribution of what is available to all classes of our citizens, in so far as that can be achieved. What really is at issue is, what is the best method to obtain that. In this country we have not had rationing of any commodity except petrol until it was announced, since this motion was put upon the Order Paper, that tea was to be rationed. I think it would be relevant to set out very briefly what the history of these things is. The war has been on for 18 months. Twelve months previously, at Munich, in September, 1938, I think it would be fair to say that notice was served upon all concerned that war was pretty sure to come, and the present Minister for Supplies, who was then Minister for Industry and Commerce, accepted that notice and, speaking on the 30th September, 1938—that is, nearly a year before the war broke out—at the opening of a new factory of Templeton Carpets, Ltd., at Abbeylands, Navan, was reported as saying:

"Both I and the officials of my Department have for some weeks past completely neglected our ordinary activities, and, instead of exploring new industrial possibilities, and the necessary legislation, have been hastily devising plans to meet the possible emergency of a European war—the rationing of petrol, the provision of necessary supplies, and the control of their distribution.... I sincerely hope that the fruit of the work we have been doing for the last month or two will never see the light of day, and will lie in the pigeon-holes of the Department."

Therefore, quite clearly the Minister conveyed the impression, which I think he repeated at various periods afterwards, that as far as he was concerned he had a cut-and-dried plan for meeting emergencies, and of course the obvious and the greatest emergency, on the economic side, was a shortage of materials. Two years later than that, on the 28th August, 1940, when the war had been on just a year, the Minister was able to state that the supplies position was satisfactory. He gave an interview to the Irish Press on that date. He said that with regard to coal the position was reasonably good, and that supplies were still freely available. With regard to tea, he said that present stocks could, if necessary, be made to last for a period of from nine to 12 months without formal rationing. In other words, the stocks of tea in August, 1940, could have been made to last for a period of 12 months without formal rationing, which is presumably the kind of rationing the Minister now proposes to introduce. With regard to sugar, he then said that there was 18 months' supply, and that, with economy, our supply of flour was secure for almost 12 months ahead. With regard to timber, he said that there were large supplies within the country and further supplies being purchased.

Asked how our food supplies would be affected in the event of an effective blockade of Britain—according to the report in the Irish Press—the Minister said that “our existing stocks of imported foods are sufficient to meet our full requirements for a long time to come.”“There is no need for anxiety on that score,” he said. Now, that did not depend on future supplies or upon the future course of the war. That statement, I should like you to note, depends on the stocks in hand in August, 1940, that we were told were sufficient to last for a long time to come. Finally, the Minister, who has given so many reassurances on that matter, in reply to the question: “Generally speaking, are you satisfied with the position?” replied:—

"I think we have been very fortunate in being able to accumulate large reserve stocks of all essential foodstuffs since the war began. Measures taken by the Government to facilitate imports, to stimulate home production, and to control the use of supplies, have all worked successfully."

That was the position on the 28th August, 1940. Just before Christmas a sudden change occurred in the Minister's outlook upon petrol, and petrol supplies were practically stopped. Subsequently, it appeared that the flour position was not so satisfactory as he had previously stated, and a circular was sent, I think, to members of both Houses, asking for their co-operation in a grow more wheat campaign.

Upon that a request was made by the Opposition that the Dáil should meet and the Dáil met on the 16th January of this year. In the debate on the 16th January in the Dáil the Minister for Supplies again took an optimistic and reassuring view of our supplies, and more particularly of our tea supplies. He denied, with the vigour with which we associate him— unfortunately, it is very often a vigour of misstatement—but he denied with great vigour that there was any difficulty about tea except, I think, that one wholesaler had made a mistake and stopped giving out his tea to retailers. He said, in the course of that debate, that preparations should be based on the worst assumption and that in case of shortage rationing would be adopted, but I think it is reasonable to say that his preparations, in so far as they were preparations at all, were based upon the best assumptions. He also said in that debate that, before the war, different schemes had been considered and alternative plans prepared and were ready for adoption.

It is very difficult, in the light of what actually has happened, to know what the plans that were prepared were. One wonders whether he had any plan, for example, after the position which arose about tea. What actually happened was that the Minister, on the 16th January, said—and contradicted everybody on the question—that there was a satisfactory position with regard to tea. People living in Dublin knew there was a difficulty in obtaining tea and even before that meeting I had occasion to go to a town in Tipperary and I found that tea was very difficult to obtain there.

But in spite of that, the Minister persisted in saying that it was plentiful, that there was no difficulty and, I think, that no difficulty was to be anticipated. Within less than a week, the Taoiseach, the head of the Government, went on the wireless to say that the tea position had changed and now, long after that, nearly two months after that, we arrive at the position when after another month tea will be rationed. One is tempted to say that what the people require is an accurate statement of the position as the Minister knows it and not reassuring statements which turn out very shortly to be a complete misrepresentation of the actual position.

Now we are going to have a rationing system taking effect, I think, on the 5th April, a month from to-day, but the position is with regard to tea, that before that rationing system comes into operation, stocks, at the request of the Minister himself, have been laid in by people who are fortunate enough to be able to buy them, that prices have gone up, that there has been a considerable amount of hoarding, that the strong and the vigorous customers —using the word "customer" in all its senses—have been able to get tea, here, there and everywhere, that people who can only buy it in very small quantities, who depend upon a weekly wage, who always buy in small quantities and must buy in small quantities, find themselves in a difficulty and that the weak, the infirm, the kind of person who cannot stand in a queue in different shops, finds himself with very little tea indeed.

Before the Minister brought in his scheme, which I hope he will be able to explain to us in some detail, the retailers had been obliged to bring in a rationing system so that the prepared plans do not emerge, if they are prepared plans at all, until the situation has gone very far and very considerable harm has been done. I think it is right to say that the public would cheerfully accept and at any time since the war began, given proper leadership in the matter, would have cheerfully accepted practically any step with regard to essential foodstuffs or essential commodities of any kind which it could be demonstrated to them would effect two purposes: The first purpose would be the preservation of employment and the second the giving of a fair deal to the poorer and the weaker classes. In the case of the poor, I mean not precisely the destitute or the ill or those who have to receive relief of any kind, but a very substantial class of citizens who have a weekly wage and who are obliged to buy in small quantities, who buy from week to week, not to say from day to day, and who have no means, no matter what the national emergency may be, of laying up stocks. It seems to me that before the situation gets worse—and it seems to be clear that instead of getting better it is going to get worse—with regard to other commodities, the fairest and the most sensible system would be to have a national register of consumers, to issue ration cards, to make clear what was going to be rationed and thus to have a system which could be applied equally not only to tea, but to other commodities as well.

What other commodities are there? The Minister, although optimistic about the flour position in August, 1940, was not so optimistic about it latter and, given the weather we have been having for the past few weeks, it may very well be that the question of bread will be an important one after the next harvest. I know it would be a very difficult thing to ration but some attempt should certainly be made. One of the things that the poor in this city find it almost impossible to buy at the moment in any quantity or the quantity that they require is paraffin oil, and I am told that other articles, such as soap, may be very difficult to obtain, not to mention supplies of certain wearables which are very important.

The situation by which one is constantly reassured that everything is all right and one suddenly finds a great shortage is one that naturally presses hardest on the smaller person. For example, in regard to building materials, I think the Minister's statement about timber would hardly be endorsed by anyone connected with the building trade. The situation about timber, it is alleged, has been let entirely drift until it is now very bad. I know, for example, with regard to copper tubing there was no difficulty at all about getting supplies until three weeks ago and then suddenly it was found no supplies at all were available. Surely the policy adopted should not be a policy of reassuring people and then having sudden scarcity, sudden curtailment and difficulties for the retailers. The retailers should not have placed upon them the burden of doing something which the Government should have taken upon itself to do a long time ago.

This matter of equitable distribution, whether by rationing or otherwise—rationing would appear to be the only system—was raised in the Dáil on the 16th January and then it was pointed out that such a thing was not necessary. For example, in other countries where ration cards have been issued special arrangements can be made for special cases—diabetics, for example, and persons suffering from other illnesses. For example, at the present moment in Dublin, as far as coal sold by the bag is concerned, people who buy in small quantities naturally—and I presume it is inevitable—get bad value, but at the present moment the coal being supplied to bellmen is of a type, I have been told, and I have actually seen it in some houses, that is very difficult to burn in the ordinary grate. Slack is of some use to a person who has a good supply of coal, but slack and very bad coal is of no use at all to the person who has to pay for the sticks he uses to light his fire, who finds that what he is supplied with by the bellmen is something which will not, in fact, light at all.

We have a very difficult situation and I think the fairest way for us to face it would be to make a national register. I do not understand, for example, how this present system the Minister has is going to work with regard to people who move from place to place. A simple example which strikes me is that a number of students will move out of Dublin soon for three or four weeks and will move back again. Will they be registered with retailers here and in their homes as well, or how will it be arranged? How would the present system, as far as we can gather it from the advertisements in the newspapers, be arranged?

Another matter is, for example, quite a number of people in Dublin get tea from the St. Vincent de Paul Society which issues tickets exchangeable at certain retailers' shops. How is it proposed to help them? It seems to me that in this last scheme, as adumbrated in the Press, if it is intended to charge 10/- to every tea retailer, hardships will result. Does it mean, Sir, that every person who sells any quantity of tea in his shop must pay 10/-? If so, and it appears to be so, a great number of small shopkeepers who sell small quantities of tea, such as ten to 20 pounds in the week in small packets, will suffer by it. If you walk through Clanbrassil Street, through Lower Clanbrassil Street and down New Street and Patrick Street, along to the quays, you will find a big number of shops, all of them smallish, and mostly selling tea, but not turning over large quantities in the week.

If everyone is going to be compelled to pay 10/- for a licence for tea, it will interfere very much with their trade, because very few of them are living any more than from hand to mouth, and they will be forced to adopt the device, which has always been adopted, of passing the cost on to the consumer. Since their consumers are people buying in small quantities, the amount passed on is going to increase very greatly the cost of tea per pound.

I feel, Sir, that the only way in which we can relieve the situation, which is bound to get worse, is by honestly telling the people what the position is. I do not think it is fair or correct to say, for example, that we are the most effectively blockaded country in the world, and that everybody is blockading us. That, I think, is entirely contrary to the truth. We can hear on the wireless from one particular direction that we are in an area blockaded by a ring of steel, but we know that there are other people who are sending us stuff, and who, in a better situation, would send us more, but their situation is not going to improve, apparently, from the point of view of shipping and shipping space, and, therefore, neither is ours. In that situation, we must have a scheme which will be applicable to a particular article, and which can easily be extended to other articles as occasion arises.

I do not argue at all about the amount given, because I realise that it will depend on the amount available, but I understand that although the trade figures have not been published, they have been made available, and that we have got nearly as much tea in 1940 as in 1939, although not as much as in 1938. That being so, it is very difficult to see why we have a shortage now, and why it is the shortage should have come upon us very suddenly, and that no effort should have been made to bring about a rationing scheme until great inconvenience has been caused to the public, and a much greater inconvenience to retailers who themselves, in the first place, adopted a scheme before the Minister came forward with his. It seems that the Minister has a very strong and rooted objection to an admission that rationing of any particular article is necessary, but that is a position which no responsible person could take, and, at any rate, it is bound to be found out, as it has been in regard to petrol and tea, and probably will be found out later with regard to other articles.

As I said, Sir, the most equitable distribution for all our people would be a distribution with ration cards, based on a national register, and people will, I think, be prepared to cooperate willingly with any system which would ensure, and have as its object, the preservation of employment and the giving of the best possible deal to the poorer and weaker sections of the community. Therefore, Sir, I move the motion.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I beg to second the motion, while reserving my right to speak later, should I feel so disposed.

Minister for Supplies (Mr. Lemass)

It was very flattering of Senator Hayes to pretend that he has read all the speeches I delivered from time to time so very carefully.

Mr. M. Hayes

I did not pretend that, Sir. That is misrepresentation No. 1. I never said it.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy's reading of extracts from my speeches might have conveyed that impression to some of us. Everyone knows that it was pretence. The Senator knows that he read only carefully chosen extracts supplied to him by a Press clipping agency which supplies a similar service to members of the Dáil. If he had read my speeches as carefully as he seemed to suggest, he would have found that I never failed to avail myself of any opportunity when speaking on matters relating to supplies to warn the public that, no matter how satisfactory the position in relation to particular commodities was at a given time, that circumstances would inevitably change and that we could not foretell what the future might hold for us. The history of the Government's activities in relation to the maintenance of supplies was very imperfectly told by Senator Hayes.

It is quite true that in the late autumn of 1938, developments in Europe were accepted by the Government here as a warning that war was a possibility and the Government acted upon that warning and established in that year an Emergency Supplies Branch in the Department of Industry and Commerce, a branch which was charged with the responsibility of preparing plans against a possible war position. In accordance with the policy of the Government, as announced in public at the time, that branch endeavoured to ensure that whatever reserve stocks were accumulated were acquired and maintained by the private interests normally engaged in trading in those goods.

It is, of course, easy for Senators and others, in the light of the knowledge which they now possess as to how events did, in fact, actually work out, to suggest that the Government might have taken more vigorous action in the winter of 1938 and the spring of 1939 and, no doubt, if we had then the precise knowledge which we now possess, as to when exactly the war would start, as to what countries would be involved, as to the course of its development, we might have been more vigorous and more accurate in our planning, but in those years, we were planning against a possible war, and, against that possible war, we took action to accumulate reserve stocks. That action was not as unsuccessful as has been suggested.

If we are to have controversies now concerning the Government's activities in those years or criticism of the Government because of its failure to foresee events in the precise order in which they occurred, it is, of course, possible to retaliate by quoting speeches of the critics and showing how their forecast of events so completely misled them as to oppose, at that time, most of the measures the Government was then taking to prepare against a war situation, but that is not going to get us anywhere at present. I can say, in relation to most of the essential commodities, that this country entered the war period better prepared than many European countries, better prepared in respect of some commodities than even Great Britain, where knowledge as to possible future events might be expected to be more accurate than here. The fact that we have gone through 18 months of war with no serious consequences developing is, I think, a testimony to the efficiency of the work done by the Emergency Supplies Branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce in the pre-war years. It is true, of course, that the war was much slower in developing to its maximum intensity than was anticipated at the time, and that for a long period after it commenced, its effects on our economic life were much less than we had anticipated. That slow development of the war, and that lack of immediate consequences from its outbreak on our people, led the people into a position in which they were rather inclined to expect that these conditions were those to be associated with a European war and that they need not change. Senator Hayes quite obviously appeared to hold that view, because he quoted some extracts from statements made by me some time ago for the purpose of criticising the Government in consequence of the fact that, at a subsequent period, the conditions then described as existing had changed. It is, of course, an easy matter to criticise the Government in times like the present when conditions are changing very rapidly, and when the circumstances existing on any one day may be completely reversed in a very short period, and plans have to be made anew, or a new arrangement brought into operation to deal with the new situation.

It is true that when the Dáil met in January last I stated that there was no shortage of tea. I did not make that statement merely for the purpose of reassuring the people or promoting a false optimism concerning the position. Before I went to the Dáil I, as a prudent man, took certain precautions. Contact was established with the Government Department in England that controls the allocation of tea supplies to this country, and we were informed by that Department that there was no change in the position relating to our tea supplies under which we were receiving the same periodical allocations as we had been assured would be forthcoming. That is to say, we were receiving the same quantities of tea as those imported by us in pre-war years.

Perhaps Senators are not quite familiar with the position under which our arrangements concerning tea imports were made. In pre-war times the bulk of the tea imported into this country was bought on the London market through London brokers. It is true that some comparatively small quantities of tea were bought in Amsterdam, and some were imported direct from the countries of origin. It seemed to us a useful arrangement to make with the responsible authorities in England from where the great bulk of our tea supplies would have to come in any event, that they would undertake to provide our whole requirements while we, on our part, would not compete with them either in the countries of production or for shipping space from those countries. That arrangement was made, and under that arrangement we were assured that we would receive our normal quantities of tea based on our imports over an agreed period before the war. That arrangement had continued in operation until January of this year.

Certain arrears of allocations had accumulated because of difficulties arising in Great Britain. Through the disorganisation of transport or the destruction of stocks or other causes, allocations which had been made to us did not arrive and certain allocations were in arrear. Nevertheless, up to the date on which the Dáil met, we had received, and on that date were expecting to continue to receive, as had been arranged with the responsible British authorities, our full normal imports of tea calculated on the datum year.

I have stated that before I went to the Dáil telephonic communication was established with the Tea Controller in Great Britain and a statement was made by the officer in charge there that the position was unchanged, that our allocations would still be made on the basis of our normal imports. While some discussion took place concerning the arrears due to us, no assurance was given in respect to them. Before I went to the Dáil, not merely had I arranged for that check-up with the British tea control authorities, but the officers of my Department had met the Tea Importers' Association, an organisation of tea importers in this country which speaks for some 80 or 85 per cent. of the tea importers. They had stated their view of the position based upon their knowledge of existing stocks. They expressed their view that these stocks were adequate to maintain normal supplies to all retailers, and expressed the opinion that there was no need to consider the introduction of a rationing scheme. It was on the basis of the information given to me by the Tea Controller of Great Britain and the Tea Importers' Association of this country that I made the statement, not that our tea position was satisfactory, but that there was no shortage of supplies, that we had been able up to then to give to each retailer, with some occasional temporary lapses, 100 per cent. of his normal sales, and that we hoped to be able to continue to do so in future.

After the Dáil debate terminated, however, a communication was received from the Tea Controller in Great Britain to the effect that owing to losses consequent upon the sinking of ships and the destruction of stocks in Great Britain, it would not be possible for them to allocate to us for some time to come our full quantities of tea, and that these allocations would be reduced by an unspecified percentage. It was after that information was received that the decision was made to introduce a rationing scheme, not because there had been any sudden disappearance of stocks within this country, but because it was then known that future supplies to this country were going to be less than normal and that difficulties would arise.

The introduction of a rationing scheme involves a considerable amount of organisation. It is true that we might have made plans to have operated a formal rationing scheme from a somewhat earlier date than the beginning of April, if we had been willing to create a new organisation for that purpose and to recruit a staff from outside sources. It has, however, been the policy of the Government to endeavour, in the interests of economy, to find staffs for new emergency services by the transfer of officers from other Government Departments and consequently it was necessary to arrange for the transfer of an adequate staff to the Department of Supplies before the necessary steps for the inauguration of a formal rationing scheme could be taken. In the meantime it was desirable to restrict deliveries from wholesalers to retailers to the extent of 25 per cent. That was done. It is possible that that restriction on supplies may have caused temporary difficulty here and there. But I would like Senators to know that during the previous war deliveries of tea from wholesalers to retailers were restricted ordinarily to about 60 per cent. of the normal, and occasionally to 40 per cent. of the normal, without a rationing scheme being introduced or considered necessary.

It is true that during the last war there was rationing of other commodities, including sugar, which facilitated traders in distributing limited supplies of tea. We could contemplate a diminution of supplies from wholesalers to retailers being sufficient if we could have relied completely upon a measure of co-operation forthcoming from traders and the general public. We feel, however, that circumstances are such that we could not base our plan upon the assurance that such co-operation would be forthcoming. Therefore an order was made to provide for the rationing of tea and that order is now in force and the formal rationing of tea will begin in the course of a few weeks.

Reference was made by Senator Hayes to advice given to individuals to acquire stocks last summer. There is nothing that the Government did that has been more frequently misrepresented than the giving of this advice. The idea is conveyed that that advice was given wholly to enable wealthy people to put themselves in a position of security by storing up supplies while such supplies were available. I ask Senators to remember the circumstances in which that advice was given.

The Government had reason to believe that an invasion of this country might take place. They feared that if it did take place large districts might be cut off from the sources of supply of essential goods. They felt it was necessary, in order to prevent destitution and starvation arising in these districts, that immediate steps should be taken to get in stocks of essential foodstuffs and other commodities. Consequently traders, both wholesale and retail, managers of institutions and householders, were urged to make purchases of reserved stocks. It was felt that that would be the quickest way to get stocks distributed throughout the country. It was given also for other purposes. Flour, sugar and coal were amongst the commodities mentioned.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I do not want to interrupt the Minister and I agree he is right in replying to any misrepresentations that may have been made, but I would like to remind him that when replying to these he is not replying to any statement made by Senator Hayes.

Mr. Lemass

At that time in July last it must be remembered that it was possible for us to import substantial quantities of coal and wheat. So far as coal was concerned there had been scarcity, but after the occupation of France by the Germans a position arose in which large numbers of boats loaded with coal that we could get were in British ports. This coal had been destined for France, but could be purchased by us provided we could clear the coal that was in our ports. The coal storage in our ports was limited, and the only way we could secure full advantage of the situation would be by getting the public to purchase so as to enable us to clear.

The same position arose in connection with wheat. We were purchasing wheat at that time. The Irish harvest was coming in and it was necessary that wheat in our port stores should be cleared. The sooner they were cleared the more we could get in. By asking people to buy stocks at that time we were increasing the storage available for people who could import fresh stocks. But the situation has changed. We are not asking people to lay in stores of coal or wheat at the present moment. We are, in fact, preventing them, because it is necessary to keep the existing stocks under strict control and to secure their equitable distribution.

So far as coal is concerned it is necessary to maintain supplies for industrial concerns that otherwise might have to close down and for that purpose restrictions are placed upon sales to householders.

There is another purpose served by the restriction and Senator Hayes made reference to it, and that is the need of securing full supplies for those who have to purchase in small quantities from bellmen or hucksters.

Arrangements had been made, so far as the City of Dublin is concerned, by my Department with the coal importers which will ensure that all bellmen and small coal traders will get their full normal purchases of coal. These arrangements are of such a nature that they ensure that these traders will get due quantities of the best quality coal imported. It is necessary, however, to know that we cannot under present circumstances obtain the quality that we ordinarily purchased. Since the beginning of the year the British Government instituted a system of export licences. Previously we obtained coal without restriction from whatever source in Great Britain we desired to obtain supplies, but for reasons of their own the British Government restricted the export of coal to this country to certain places in Great Britain producing coal of a quality we did not previously purchase.

We are getting only restricted quantities of high-volatile coal and are now being required to take quantities of low-volatile coal as well. There is nothing we can do about it. Senators aware of the position in Great Britain will understand that these restrictions have been placed upon us on account of factors in the situation which have resulted in many areas in Great Britain being short of coal. In many parts of Britain coal is rationed as it is rationed here, despite the fact that their total production of coal is considerably in excess of their home consumption. That restriction of supply is due to causes other than the difficulty of production. On that account, these restrictions have been placed upon us. If we are to get coal at all, we must take the type we can get. It is a matter of taking that or doing without.

The arrangements which have been made in relation to bellmen and small traders involve the taking of a fixed percentage of every cargo of coal that comes in and putting it into central dumps from which these small traders will be supplied. Thus they are ensured that they will get preference in the matter of quantity, and that they will be protected in the matter of quality. Incidentally, we have also arranged that they will be protected in the matter of price, and arrangements now in operation to some extent involve that the ordinary householder is paying a little more for the coal he purchases so that the coal available to the very poor will be sold at a lower price. These arrangements have been in operation now for a short while. They are not fully complete, but, so far as I know, they are working satisfactorily, and, while there is some discontent concerning the quality of coal that is provided now, that quality, as I have said, cannot be improved for the present.

It is, of course, not possible to say what the future may bring. It may be that the coal situation will ease. To some extent, the sharp reduction in imports during last month was due to temporary causes: the quantity of coal imported was substantially less than the quantity for which licences had been granted. Difficulties in the transporting of that coal had arisen. These difficulties may become easier, in which case the coal ration may be increased. On the other hand, the difficulties may become greater. On that account, the Government has taken, and is taking, positive steps to extend internal production of alternative fuels. I may mention also that, some time ago, there was set up under Government auspices a company of a non-profit-making character charged with the responsibility of purchasing coal for reserve purposes. That quantity of coal which that company was able to purchase for reserve purposes was limited, but it has succeeded in building up in Dublin and elsewhere reserve stocks of coal, small in relation to our total annual requirements, but sufficient to ensure that, in circumstances of extreme emergency, some fuel will nevertheless be available. That coal will not be released until a very definite emergency situation has arisen.

Now, let me deal more closely with the motion. It suggests that a national register of consumers be set up and I gather from Senator Hayes's remarks that he is of opinion that the most effective method of rationing is on the basis of a national register of consumers. Personally, I do not agree with that. In our present circumstances and in the circumstances that we can foresee, rationing upon that basis will not be the most effective method of controlling the supplies of the limited number of commodities which may be in short supply. It is necessary to remember that our conditions are fundamentally different to those of Great Britain. In respect of a wide range of foodstuffs, not merely is no shortage anticipated, but there is more than sufficient to supply all our own requirements.

Concerning meat, milk, butter, eggs, bacon, vegetables and other foods of that nature, all of which are rationed in Great Britain, we are producing more than we ourselves consume, and in relation to those foods there is no need for rationing. It is true that the Dublin Evening Herald suggested in its issue of yesterday that the rationing of meat should be undertaken. I cannot see any reason why we should ration meat—a commodity which we produce in such abundance. Of course, there is a temporary difficulty due to the foot-and-mouth disease, but I do not believe that calls for the introduction of a rationing scheme. In the case of butter, difficulties due to accidental causes have resulted in a temporary shortage. As Deputies are aware, we produce here far more butter than we consume, but our production is limited to certain months of the year. It is the ordinary practice to extract from the surplus production of those months and put into cold-store sufficient butter to meet our winter requirements. That practice was upset last year, by reason of a sharp fall in production, due to the prolonged drought in the autumn. If that had happened in time of peace, the difficulty would be met by importing the necessary quantity to make good the deficiency, but we found it impossible to import butter under present circumstances. Consequently, the butter stored for winter needs was less than required. The Department of Agriculture, which has control of our butter situation, thought it sufficient to deal with that position by limiting supplies to retailers and asking retailers to ration supplies to customers. That system of rationing would not have been adopted if the shortage were likely to be permanent. Everybody knows that the shortage will end in a few weeks.

Mr. M. Hayes

It is merely seasonal.

Mr. Lemass

Yes. There will be full normal supplies of butter available again. In the case of flour, the position at the moment is somewhat similar. It is an easy matter for us to calculate the quantity of wheat available in the country and to determine how long that wheat will last, on various assumptions as to consumption. It is necessary that we make our available stock of wheat and flour last to the end of September. There is very little prospect of adding to that stock. On the basis of the highest consumption of flour recorded, that stock will be inadequate to last to the end of September. On the basis of consumption during the last quarter of last year, it will be sufficient, but, for some reason, that consumption was somewhat below normal. Therefore, we must take measures now to economise in the use of flour between this and September.

The diminution in consumption which it is necessary to achieve is not very great—not more than 10 or 15 per cent. Probably, if we could succeed in eliminating the wastage of flour and bread throughout the country, we would achieve a sufficient reduction in total consumption to serve our purpose. We have considered the desirability of introducing a rationing scheme, even though the total reduction to be effected in consumption is small, and even though the shortage will continue only until the next harvest. I say, only until the next harvest: even if, for any reason, the total yield of wheat should prove to be less than is required to cover our needs for a year, it will be possible to acquire and retain for home consumption other cereals which will ensure that flour will be available in sufficient quantities, though there may be an admixture.

Mr. Baxter

Does the Minister only hope that it will be nearly sufficient?

Mr. Lemass

It is much too early to say definitely. It is necessary to take into account not merely the acreage sown but the climatic conditions between this and September.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I suppose the Minister has not abandoned the hope of importing?

Mr. Lemass

There is very little hope of importing. I have very little hope of it. It is possible to think that some of the various arrangements we are trying to make will yield some fruit, but these prospects are not such that we can base our plans upon them at all. If wheat comes in, naturally, we shall be better off. We had hoped to get a certain number of thousands of tons of wheat this year. It had been purchased from last year, and ships had been chartered from last year, but we have already been told that a substantial quantity of that wheat has been lost, and, consequently cannot be expected.

The position is that we have to spread out our existing stocks until the end of September, and our decision not to introduce a formal rationing scheme for that purpose was made, first, because we believed that it would be impossible to achieve a proper rationing scheme for that purpose, and, secondly, because a formal rationing scheme for bread has many objections, one of the most important of which is that in the case of the poorer classes of the community bread is a much more important item in their diet than it is in the case of well-off people, and we feel that if we were to introduce a flat rate reduction by rationing based on normal consumption, it would mean a real hardship for the poorer sections of the community, whereas it would only mean an inconvenience for the rich. Consequently, if a situation should arise that we are unable to get the required reduction in consumption by voluntary effort on the part of the public we shall have to devise some means to ensure that normal supplies will still be available for the poorer classes, even though the cut in the case of the people who can buy more food, and a greater variety of food, may be more severe.

Mr. MacDermot

Is the Minister aware that in other countries they have succeeded in introducing a sort of graduated scheme of rationing whereby the poorer people are enabled to get their proper supply of the necessary foodstuffs, and the richer people get less in regard to certain commodities?

Mr. Lemass

I am aware of that, but I think it is only adopted in countries where they have a general rationing scheme in operation. I do not think we could have that here, nor do I think that it is required in our circumstances. I think that if we can get the avoidance or elimination of waste and a voluntary reduction in consumption by those who are in a position to purchase alternative foods or a greater variety of foods, and if we have the co-operation of hotel and restaurant proprietors we shall be enabled to have sufficient flour to tide us over that period. That will also mean that managers of institutions and similar places where stocks of flour are normally maintained, or where emergency stocks may be held, should use these stocks now and restrict their current purchases. It will involve, perhaps, in the case of hotel and restaurant proprietors, the making of certain orders, because I have appealed to them to restrict the use of bread in their premises without result, and it may be necessary now to compel them to do so. It will be much wiser for them to do that by voluntary methods because the introduction of compulsion may cause serious inconveniences for them. However, the position with regard to bread is the most important at the moment. It is obviously of very great importance and it is necessary to keep the matter under continuous review between this and the end of September in order to see that the best possible use is made of the limited supplies available.

If we leave flour and butter out of the picture on the ground that the difficulties that exist or are anticipated in relation to either of them are of a temporary nature, there is no item of food of common consumption in respect of which we anticipate that it will be necessary to operate a rationing scheme, other than in the case of tea. In some countries they have introduced general rationing and I know that a number of people here have been influenced by the experiences of these countries and have urged that we should have a general rationing scheme here. In these countries, however, general rationing was introduced, not solely for the purpose of securing equitable distribution of supplies that might be short, but also for other purposes, which included the release of manpower from non-essential occupations to the armed forces or for war production, and also the compulsory saving of incomes to assist in financing the war effort.

Our circumstances are entirely different. So far as we are concerned, it is our aim to maintain normal supplies and normal civilian employment as long as possible, and to encourage people to buy and consume those commodities of which we have an abundance, those foods which we produce in excess of our requirements, and a number of industrial commodities which are produced from native materials, or of which the materials of manufacture are still available.

Mr. MacDermot

Are we going to be able to finance our war effort without compulsory saving?

Mr. Lemass

I think, Sir, that that is going somewhat outside the motion. I think that in our circumstances it is quite possible. I do not think that it is necessary for us, in order to finance the war effort that we have made so far, to introduce any form of compulsory saving.

Mr. M. Hayes

To have more guns and less butter. Is not that it?

Mr. Lemass

Well, we can buy the guns without using the butter for that purpose. At least I hope so. So far as the economics are concerned, however, we produce sufficient butter not merely for our own needs but to pay for the guns if we can get them.

Mr. M. Hayes

I hope so.

Mr. Lemass

A general registration of the population, or a national register on the lines suggested by Senator Hayes, may be desirable for a number of reasons. I do not want the House to assume, from my remarks, that a decision not to establish such a register has been taken. No such decision has been taken. I know that various other Departments of the Government are considering the advantage which the existence of such a register might be to them in their work. The only thing I wish to say is that, for the purpose of rationing, so far as we can foresee at present the need for rationing, such a national register is not required. Of course, we are anxious to avoid the task of having to compile such a register if it can be avoided, because it is a colossal task. The preparation of a census will give some indication, and only some indication, of what is involved in it.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Would not the preparation of the Parliamentary register give some indication?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, but again that is merely intended to reflect the position at a particular date, just as the census only gives the position with regard to a particular date or period. On the other hand, a national register, if it is to be of any value at all for the purpose of a rationing scheme, must be accurate, not in relation to any particular date, but for every date, and the compiling of such a register and keeping it up-to-date will involve very considerable organisation and a substantial staff. It is not practicable to do that work on any other basis. The register will be merely a nuisance and a source of disorganisation if it is inaccurate. Its value will depend on its accuracy, and its accuracy will depend on the continuous checking of the information contained in it, and the Government is not prepared to do that unless there is clearly an advantage to be derived from it. If it is not necessary for rationing, they will not do it, but if the situation should change, as it may, to such an extent that you might have to ration a number of other commodities, such as sugar, butter, and other foodstuffs that at present we have in abundance—if we have to have a general rationing scheme for such commodities, then we might decide to prepare a national register for that purpose. So long, however, as we are confined to a limited range of commodities —at the moment, so far as we can see it, there is only one commodity—that system of rationing is not required. We believe that not merely is the method of rationing tea which we have adopted a practicable method, but we believe that in our circumstances it will prove superior to the method in operation in Great Britain.

Mr. Baxter

What is the method? Will the Minister explain the method of rationing tea?

Mr. Lemass

It consists of the registration of householders with retailers rather than the distribution of a card with coupons to every individual. The system in operation in Great Britain has many difficulties. I am satisfied it is by no means perfect, and I think that fact should be stated because there appears to be in the minds of a number of people the idea that the introduction of rationing will automatically guarantee that they will get supplies of the rationed commodity. It is, I think, common knowledge that in Great Britain people hold ration cards for a number of commodities which in fact they cannot get or can only get occasionally. The sole purpose of rationing, at least the form of rationing we are introducing, is to ensure that while supplies are short there will be as equitable a distribution of them as possible and that nobody will be able to obtain more than the stipulated quantity. There will, of course, be certain evasions of any regulations that are made but, by a rigid system of inspection and by having penalties sufficiently severe to deter people from taking the risk of evading the regulations, we feel we can make them effective.

Senator Hayes also referred to certain other commodities which are in short supply. One of these is paraffin oil. No system of general rationing is applicable in the case of paraffin oil. Where you have a commodity that is not purchased by everyone but only by a limited number of individuals in the community, a rationing scheme based upon the issue of purchase permits to consumers is not practicable unless those consumers can be easily identified, as in the case of motor car owners. We know who the motor car owner is and can easily identify him and issue purchase permits to him, but in the case of consumers of paraffin oil, control of the distribution to ordinary consumers has got to be done through the retailers. It is necessary that a system of control over retailers should be instituted and that is being prepared. The sole purpose of the control is to ensure that full supplies will be available to those who require it for essential purposes, like owners of agricultural tractors, and that the balance will be as equitably distributed as possible amongst those who require it for other purposes.

I think I have dealt now with the various matters raised and with the subject-matter of the motion. To sum up, so far as the motion is concerned, we are not proposing to establish a national register of consumers for the purpose of rationing. I do not want my remarks to be interpreted as meaning we have any objection in principle to the establishment of such a register. It is merely we do not think it is necessary for that purpose at the moment. If it should become necessary, then that will be done. We are arranging to introduce rationing in relation to such essential commodities as will be permanently in short supply, so far as we can foresee. Where temporary difficulties arise we are trying to avoid these difficulties by other methods, but if these other methods do not succeed then rationing will have to be resorted to. We do not think, however, that we should ration any commodity except because it is short and because it is necessary, therefore, to control the sales of it to individuals, but wherever any shortage should appear inevitable in relation to a commodity of common consumption then rationing on some basis will be resorted to.

The system of rationing coal, to which reference has been made here, is working reasonably satisfactorily. I would not regard it as an ideal system if we had definite information as to how the coal position was likely to develop in future, but so long as the position is uncertain—there is some possibility of our being able to remove control altogether—then that system will do. It is working reasonably satisfactorily but it may be necessary to reinforce it by a system of registering coal traders and imposing upon these coal traders certain legal obligations, default in relation to which will involve penalties for themselves.

Mr. Baxter

Does the Minister say there is hope it will be possible to remove control?

Mr. Lemass

I merely gave one indication on which my hope was based and that is the fact that last month the quantity of coal which was imported was very much below our needs, but was substantially less than the quantity for which export licences had been granted. That fact indicates that the failure to import the full quantity of coal was not due to any decision on the part of the Mines Department of Great Britain to prevent us getting it. It was due to purely accidental difficulties—non-availability of ships, etc. The situation may improve. If the situation does improve—and there is some reason to expect it will improve with the coming of the summer months —then we may be able to relax our restrictions on the delivery of coal supplies.

Mr. Baxter

That shows we are not blockaded on that point.

Mr. M. Hayes

Will the Minister explain the 10/- licence fee for all retailers, and give us his interpretation of what is in the notice?

Mr. Lemass

There are several purposes it is hoped to serve.

Mr. M. Hayes

Does it apply to everybody, no matter how little tea he sells?

Mr. Lemass

It applies to anybody who desires to register as a retailer of tea. A person who so desires will be put in a privileged position. He will be ensured that he will get supplies of tea sufficient to supply the prescribed ration to the customers who are registered with him. We think it is not unreasonable that he should be asked to meet some part of the expense of providing that system in view of the advantages which he derives. These advantages may be not so obvious at first, but they will, I think, become obvious in future.

Furthermore, it is desired to prevent people applying for registration as tea retailers who do not expect to be able to establish their claim to be so regarded. One of the difficulties in initiating a registration scheme of this kind is that everybody may fill up an application for registration form in the hope that by doing so he will be able to get into this trade of selling a commodity which is in common demand, and selling it on a basis which will ensure he will get supplies from a wholesaler for the purpose of meeting the requirements of his customers. The imposition of a fee may prevent these purely frivolous applications. It is necessary, of course, to remember that the fee is not an annual fee; it is a fee which the retailer will pay once and never have to pay again, no matter how long the rationing scheme may operate. Its primary purpose is to defray part of the cost of instituting the system. Its secondary purpose is to ensure that the method of control will work a bit better.

Mr. O'Callaghan

I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that lorries engaged in agricultural operations are not being supplied with petrol. I am also aware of some tractor owners who have not been supplied with petrol last month.

Mr. Lemass

It is impossible to deal with individual cases here. So far as the records of my Department show, all lorry owners have received a ration of petrol for the present month, and all tractor owners have received their prescribed ration of petrol for this month. We frequently get complaints from people to the effect that they did not receive their ration of petrol, and you find they did not apply or forgot to furnish the necessary cards or particulars, or something of that kind, but in any case where the particulars are furnished to me, if the person is entitled to petrol I will see that the necessary coupons are issued.

Mr. O'Callaghan

Does the Minister agree that lorries engaged in agriculture are entitled to get petrol?

Mr. Lemass

All lorries are getting a ration for this month.

Mr. O'Callaghan

The Minister is not referring to all lorries carrying plates?

Mr. Lemass

No, all lorries. There is a special ration for licensed hauliers.

Mr. O'Callaghan

Might I also draw the attention of the Minister to the necessity for controlling the price of farm and garden seeds? I may be out of order but, if I might be excused, might I also ask the Minister whether there is any hope of further supplies of fertilisers coming in?

Mr. Lemass

I would say none whatever.

Mr. Fitzgerald

As it is now a quarter to eleven, I move the adjournment of the debate, Sir—I presume the next sitting will be this day week.

Cathaoirleach

The Seanad may fix the date for resumption.

Liam O Buachalla

A Chathaoirligh, I understood that there was an understanding that this debate would be finished to-night.

Mr. MacDermot

Such a thing can never be understood.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I did not understand it. I would not dream of making a proposal if I thought it was contrary to some agreement that had been made. I understood that this debate would not finish to-night. If there is no agreement, I wish to move that it be adjourned until next Wednesday.

Cathaoirleach

It is a matter for the Seanad itself to decide whether the debate should be continued or adjourned.

Mr. MacDermot

Is there any other business for a meeting next Wednesday?

Cathaoirleach

The Cork City Management Bill will probably be here next week.

Mr. McEllin

What business is there before the House to justify bringing Senators up from the country for a meeting next week?

Mr. Baxter

In addition to this motion, if the debate is adjourned, there will be the Cork City Management Bill.

Mr. McEllin

I want to know if that is of sufficient importance to bring the House together.

A Senator

Cork is all important.

Mr. M. Hayes

I take it that there will be the Central Fund Bill next week?

Cathaoirleach

Not next week, most probably the following week.

Mr. M. Hayes

That will be enough for one day, even for Senator McEllin.

Cathaoirleach

The Question is that the debate be adjourned until this day week.

Motion put and agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, March 12, 1941.