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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 1941

Vol. 26 No. 2

Architects (Registration) Bill, 1941. - Agriculture (Amendment) Bill, 1941-Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is merely to amend certain clauses in the Agriculture Act, 1931. Sub-section (1) of Section 36 of that Act provides that a county council must collect a rate of 2d. in the £ for the benefit of the county committee of agriculture, and may collect another 1d. in the £, if the county committee can make a good case for it. This Bill proposes to give the county council power to collect an extra 2d., instead of an extra 1d., if they so think fit. A number of the county councils have reached the limit, that is they are collecting the mandatory 2d. and also the 1d. which they are permitted to collect, and some of them, I feel, will avail of the opportunity to collect a little more if they have authority to do so. In fact, some of the county committees are not able to carry on all the activities which they would like to carry on on the present income. I need not enumerate for Senators what these activities are. They come under the heading of education and, to a certain extent, of subsidies on production of various kinds, such as assisting the poultry industry and the pig industry in congested districts and also to some extent the growing of vegetables. On the educational side, there are the services of the instructors in agriculture and horticulture, bee-keeping, poultry-keeping and butter-making. They also give some scholarships to farmers' sons and daughters which are tenable at the approved agricultural institutions.

Since the enactment of the Agriculture Act, 1931, all but one of the county committees have succeeded in obtaining from the county councils an agricultural rate higher than the minimum of 2d. There are nine now on the maximum, that is, they are getting the produce of a 3d. rate from the county councils, and some at least of these county committees are anxious to get more. At present, from the central Exchequer, each county committee gets £1 for every £1 collected from the county council and last year the amount paid by the Exchequer was something like £96,000. If every county committee were to get the full rate allowed by this Bill, they would be in receipt of £145,000 from the county councils, and the Minister for Finance has agreed to continue the £1 for £1 principle. If they do reach this maximum of £145,000, a similar sum will also be contributed by the central Exchequer.

There are two other items dealt with in the Bill. There is a special grant amounting to £6,000 which was administered by my Department in a more or less arbitrary way. It was provided for the benefit of the poorer counties and these poorer counties got a bigger slice than some of the better-off counties. In fact some of the better-off counties got none of it. We propose to continue that special grant for some time, at least until they all reach the maximum. There has also been an additional grant, over the last few years, of £50,000 for lime subsidies to the county committees. That is somewhat abnormal. It will be continued as long as the abnormal circumstances are there in the matter of artificial manures, but if the emergency had passed away and we were back again to the stage where we could get unlimited supplies of artificial manures it is possible that that particular grant of £50,000, which we are now providing for lime, might be reduced. As long, however, as the emergency lasts the Minister for Finance will not refuse to contribute in the three ways indicated: (1) £1 for every £1 raised by the county councils; (2) to continue to give the £6,000 by way of a special grant for distribution amongst the poorer counties; and (3) to continue to give this rather high amount for lime subsidies.

I am sure the House will be agreeable to give the Minister a Second Reading of this Bill. In fact, those of us with experience of the work done by the county committees of agriculture welcome this measure. It is true that in some of our counties we have not even yet reached the maximum, but, nevertheless, I think there is a general recognition of the fact that the money spent by these county committees of agriculture is probably the best spent money passed out by the Exchequer and contributed, in a certain proportion, by the ratepayers. It seems to me that much in relation to the whole question of our agricultural policy could be raised and discussed within the rules of order on this Bill. The real purpose of it is to give power to our county committees of agriculture to spend more money. That money will be spent by them, in their various activities, in propagating Government policy. Unless these county committees have a policy to propagate through their officials, a policy which they are prepared to stand over themselves, we would not be justified in giving power to the county councils to raise a larger rate to enable them to extend their activities. The money that is at present being raised by the county councils for the county committees of agriculture is well spent, and has been for many years past. We feel that a good return has been got for it. We would hope, therefore, that if larger sums are now to be placed at the disposal of the county committees, that equally good results will flow from the expenditure.

It seems to me, however, of vital importance, if we are going to get the best value for the money to be provided, that there are one or two things we ought to have from the Government in order that the work of these county committees, and of their officials, may be as effective as possible in present circumstances. This was borne in on me at a meeting of our county committee of agriculture which I attended yesterday when certain matters came up for consideration. Our county officials everywhere are at present being urged, and rightly so, to go out and do what they can to get an additional area under wheat. Now, we are all for that, but some of us feel-I do and I think it is true to say that the officials of the county committees all over the country feel-that Government policy could be greatly helped if the price which the Minister for Agriculture or the Government is offering for wheat was reasonably adequate: to ensure that the policy of the Government, in so far as those officials have to sponsor or propagate it, will have the best possible chance of success. It is difficult for these officials to go to groups of farmers anywhere and urge a policy which the farmers believe does not commend itself to them in pounds, shillings and pence.

The Senator, I am sure, realises that this is a simple amending Bill, and that the wide question of agricultural policy could not be appropriately discussed on it.

There is no member of the House, I venture to say, more ready to bow to the ruling of the Chair than I am, but it seems to me that when in this measure we are making provision to enable the county committees of agriculture to spend more money on their various schemes -the Cathaoirleach from his own experience is familiar with the work done by county committees—we ought to be within our rights in discussing the question whether the raising of this additional money is going to attain the ends set out.

That particular question could, I think, be more properly discussed on a special motion or perhaps on the Appropriation Bill.

Would it be in order for Senator Baxter to say that he objected to the extra money being spent on certain of the schemes administered by the county committees?

As the Senator knows, there is a distinction between schemes and policy. The formulation of schemes is primarily a matter for the county committees of agriculture.

But surely the schemes have to be sanctioned?

Yes, before they can become operative.

I have no intention of entering into a wide discussion on Government policy. If additional money is to be raised and placed at the disposal of the county committees of agriculture, I know that part of it is going to be spent on a campaign to be undertaken by out county instructors amongst the farmers to propagate a certain policy. My point of view is that they are not going to be as successful as we would wish them to be because Government policy in this matter is weak. My view, and I think it is the view generally held throughout the country, is that the price which the Government are offering for wheat does not give the officials a chance of getting the necessary acreage that the country wants under wheat this season. If that policy is to get a chance, then the Government ought to announce to-morrow a price that will ensure its success.

The importance of this question of growing more wheat is being urged by the Government over the radio, and emphasised from pulpits all over the country. No matter how anxious all of us may be to help, it is quite impossible to argue the hard facts with the farmers because what they do is determined by the pounds, shillings and pence which their labour earns. Farmers anywhere that I have met them are not satisfied with the price which the Government have fixed for the wheat crop of 1942. They do not think it is sufficient, with the result that if more is not done in that direction the country will not get as much of the crop sown as it ought to get, or as it wants to get. If the farmers are to get a good chance of doing their job, they ought to be told to-morrow that a better price will be paid. I believe that all the officials of the county committees are at one on that point. I think they have said so. Therefore, I think the Government ought to take the point in view of all the people through the country who are involved in this effort in one way or another, both officials and farmers.

Another point in connection with this was discussed at our meeting of the county committee of agriculture yesterday. This is the problem which confronts every committee for the coming season—the shortage of artificial fertilisers. Personally, I believe it is unwise, as well as being quite impossible, to urge the growing of wheat on every kind of land. Some of our farmers who grew wheat this year were left without any crop, although if they had sown oats they had a chance of getting a crop out of it. I do not say that has been widespread, but such a thing did happen in many a field in my own county. If a big acreage of wheat is to be grown next year, and if we are to get any sort of a crop, then I suggest something must be done in the matter of obtaining fertilisers. I see in to-day's newspapers a statement from the Minister of Agriculture in Northern Ireland to the effect that there they will have supplies of sulphate of ammonia to meet all their requirements this season, provided they can take them within the next six weeks. Anyone attending fairs along the Border is aware of the fact that numbers of dairy cows are going week after week into the Six Counties and to Belfast. They will be milked there and the milk will be sent across to England. I think an effort should be made here to see that we will get something in exchange for the goods that we send across to England.

I am sure the Senator realises that the matters he is now raising are quite irrelevant on this Bill.

I am sure the Cathaoirleach knows as well as I do that it is putting our agricultural instructors into an impossible position to ask them to go amongst the farmers and appeal to them to put an additional area of their land under crops if they are to be met with the retort: "What can we do without artificial manures?" I believe that is the big problem we will have to face this year in the matter of increased tillage. The situation is such as to justify the Minister for Agriculture taking his courage in his hands and going across to England to put it before the people there. The Minister should not leave it to officials, but should go across himself and put before the people there the situation that confronts the farmers of this country this year. I would venture a big bet that if the Minister goes across with the goods he has to offer, he will come back with the artificial manures required for the coming season. I do not want to see our Minister for Agriculture, or any Minister, humiliated. The State is humiliated when a Minister is humiliated. But I think the Minister ought to go across and ask and, if he asks, he will receive. That, in itself, would put the farmers, the committees of agriculture and their officials in a position to deliver goods which, in present circumstances, it is impossible for them to deliver. I think the few matters I have raised are urgent and that they are pertinent to the Bill because the position of county committees of agriculture throughout the country is similar, I am convinced, to that with which we were confronted yesterday.

I shall try to speak ad rem so that the Cathaoirleach will not have occasion to call me to order. If I understand aright, the Minister wants to amend a certain section of the relevant Act, so as to give powers to the county councils to increase the levy for agricultural committees.

That is the purpose of the amending Bill.

I am prepared to support the Minister in that because the agricultural committees are doing excellent work—work which is progressive, encouraging and educative in every sense of the word. I am seizing this opportunity, the Minister being present, to draw the attention of the House and of the Minister to a very serious matter which has come under my observation within the past fortnight. Subject to the correction of the Chair, I think that this matter is pertinent to the Bill, to agriculture and to the general economics of the country.

It might be pertinent to a specific motion, but I am not so sure that it is pertinent to this Bill.

Somebody in this House said that I was, obviously, a town tenant. I am, but I am also a farmer. I do not say it in a boasting spirit, but I had one of the inspectors of the Department with me on the 6th November and he was somewhat surprised to see that I had three Irish acres of oats in grass corn—the 1942 crop. Here is the matter to which I want to draw the Minister's attention. I hear farmers say everywhere that they are not going to grow as much wheat this year as they did last year. That spirit is quite evident and it is a very serious matter. I questioned a number of farmers about it and they answered: "Why grow wheat at 2/- a stone when we are getting—even at variance with the law—2/3 and 2/4 for our oats?" I asked was not the price of oats controlled by the Government. They said: "Yes, it may be controlled, but prices are regulated by supply and demand and we are getting 2/3 and 2/4 a stone for our oats, whereas we would get only 2/- for our wheat." Whether that is responsible or not, a considerable number of farmers say that they are not going to grow as much wheat this year as they did last year.

I sent wheat to be crushed for flour —I shall not say where—some time ago. My son came back with a report —he had to wait for a very long time —that a very considerable portion of the wheat was being crushed by the owners for pig-feeding. I asked a certain gentleman if that did not involve a serious disservice to the country. He said: "You know the difficulties farmers have in paying rates. We can get 2/3 for our oats and it is better to get that price and feed the pigs with wheat, for which we can get only 2/-."

Every farmer knows that the growing of wheat has a deleterious effect on the soil, that it is much more severe and needs a poorer subsoil than oats or barley. Even if I have diverged somewhat, I am delighted that I got an opportunity to say what I have said because the matter is very serious.

I agree with the Senators who said that the county committees have done very good work and have made good use of the money raised by rate and the money they got by way of grant. I am glad that every Senator agrees that they should get this extra 1d. in the £. I do not think that it would be very satisfactory to enter upon a discussion of the price of wheat now. The Cathaoirleach would hardly allow us to proceed to a proper conclusion on that subject. Senator Baxter said that part of this extra 1d., if asked for by a county committee, if agreed to by a county council and if sanctioned by me, might be used by a county instructor to pay for the expenses of a journey on which he might, possibly, advise farmers to grow wheat. In that way, Senator Baxter sought to bring his remarks into order. He said that the instructor's task would be rendered much easier if the price of wheat were higher. We all agree with that, but I am afraid I cannot pursue that question further. There are aspects of it which could not be discussed on this Bill.

I am sorry to hear that there is any infringement of the present regulation, as mentioned by Senator Madden, regarding the use of wheat for animal feeding. That is a question we cannot discuss now, but in a few cases, where we had the necessary proof, very severe penalties were inflicted on the people concerned and there are other penalties to come. If Senator Madden or any other Senator would help us by giving information which would enable us to get after the people who are infringing the regulations, I promise that they will be suitably dealt with. We must, first of all, make sure that we have enough food for the human population. I think that we shall have sufficient food after that for all the animals in the country. So far as can be calculated in my Department, with the crops produced this year—cereals, potatoes, and beet pulp—there would appear to be sufficient food for both man and beast. It is possible that the farmers are a bit over-conservative—I do not blame them for that because they had a bad time last year—in keeping over feeding stuffs. They may be keeping a little bit too much so as to be on the safe side. It is quite possible that later—in the spring months—feeding will be more plentiful because more will be available from the farmers who are somewhat overstocked at the moment.

Can the Minister say how much 1d. in the £ will in the aggregate produce?

The full 4d. would amount to £145,000, so the Senator could divide £145,000 by four.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the further stages now.
Bill passed through Committee without amendment, and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

The Minister indicated that approximately £50,000 will be spent on lime this year. I want to point out at this stage that unless the kiln owners get facilities to secure adequate quantities of culm, I doubt if more than £25,000 will be spent. With conditions what they are, it is much more imperative that the money should be spent this year than any other year. Probably the matter has come to the Minister's notice before this.

A special effort should be made to facilitate kiln owners now. I know that in Cavan the burning of lime has been delayed, and that we are not going to get deliveries, apart from the difficulties of transport.

These difficulties are being investigated by the Departments concerned.

I hope the investigations will be hurried up.

Question put and agreed to.
Ordered: That the Bill be returned to the Dáil.
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