I move:—
That Seanad Éireann approves of the establishment of a Constituent School of the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies for the furtherance of advanced study and the conduct of research in Cosmic Physics.
Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies: Establishment of Constituent School—Motion.
Nuair a bhí an Bille um Institiúid Ard-Léinn Bhaile Atha Cliath os comhair an Oireachtais roinnt blian ó shoin, míníodh gurbh é cuspóir a bhí leis ná rannóg eile a chur le foirgneamh oideachais na tíre ionnas go bhféadfaimis ár gcion a dhéanamh chun cúrsaí léinn a chur chun cinn. Bunaíodh an Institiúid chun go bhféadfaí Ardstaidéar agus taighde a dhéanamh i mbrainsí speisialta eolais trí bhíthin comhscoileanna de na brainsí éagsúla. Soláthraíodh an fráma chuige sin — an comhlucht corparáideach, Comhairle na hInstitiúide, i mbun rialuithe is riaracháin ghinearálta, agus comh scoileanna a raibh a bhord rialúcháin féin ag gach ceann acu i mbun obair speisialta na scoile sin ar leith. Bunaíodh dhá scoil mar thús oibre, Scoil an Léinn Cheiltigh agus Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla. Do léiríodh an uair sin ná raibh sa dá scoil sin dar linn ach sompla ar an eagar a measadh a cuirfí ar an Institiúid do réir mar fhásfadh sí ar ball. Rinneadh socrú chun comh scoileanna eile a bhunú dá gceapfadh an Rialtas go mbeadh sé sin inmholta. Tá beartaithe ag an Rialtas anois gurab é an leas poiblí comh scoil eile a bhunú, Scoil na Fisice Cosmaí, agus do réir Mír 4 (2) den Acht um Institiúid Ard-Léinn, 1940, ní foláir toiliú an tSeanaid d'fháil i bhfoirm rúin sar a mbunaítear an Nua-Scoil seo.
Ach a rithidh an Dáil agus an tSeanaid rúin toilithe déanfaidh an Rialtas Ordú Bunúcháin. Leanfaidh an tOrdú sin sompla ginearálta na nOrdú a rinneadh cheana lenar bunaíodh Scoil an Léinn Cheiltigh agus Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla. Beidh sé d'fheidhm agus de dhualgas ar an Scoil scúdú teoiriciúil agus scrúdú trialach a dhéanamh ar fhadhbanna na fisice cosmaí, agus na hastrofisice, gaethe cosmacha, geoifisic, meteoraíocht agus muir-eolaiocht d'áireamh; toradh an scrúduithe sin do chur i bhfeidhm más féidir é, ar fhadhbanna na heconomaíochta náisiúnta; nótaí geoifisiceacha Éireannacha do bhailiú, do scrúdú, agus más inmholta é, iad d'fhoilsiú, sa mhéid nach a ndéantar soláthar trí sheirbhís Stáit chun a leithéid do dhéanamh; mic léinn árd-chúrsa d'oiliúint i modhanna taighde bhunuil; agus comhoibriú i dtaighde institiúidí thar lear. Tá socair Teach Faireacháin Dunsink a chur ar fáil don. Institiúid le haghaidh na NuaScoile agus sa chás sin féachfar chuige go dtabharfaidh Bord Rialúcháin na Scoile cead isteach chun foirgintí, úirlisí agus leabharlann an Teach Faireacháin do bhaill faoime acadamhúla agus do mhic léinn Choláiste na Trionóide Bhaile Atha Cliath agus Choláiste Ollscoile, Bhaile Atha Cliath le haghaidh a gcuid staidéir réalteolaíochta.
Beidh an t-eagar céanna ar an Nua-Scoil agus atá ar na scoileanna atá ann cheana. Beidh Bord Rialúcháin ina bun ar a mbeidh Cathaoirleach, na hollamhain sinsearacha agus roinnt ball a ceapfar ná beidh a n-uimhir faoi bhun uimhir na nollamhan sinsearach. An tUachtarán a cheapfas iad uile ar chomhairle an Rialtais. Ceapfaidh an Bord Rialúcháin duine de na hollamhain sinsearacha ina Stiúrthóir ar an Scoil. Beidh na coinníollacha maidir le ceapadh, sealbhaíocht oifige agus cur as oifig ball an Bhuird, an Stiúrthóra, na nollamhan sin searach agus na foirne acadamhúla, agus maidir le stiúrú coiteann gnótha na Scoile ar aon dul leis na coinníollacha a bhaineas leis an dá scoil atá ann. Ceaptar go bhféadfar triúr eolaí den aicme is aoirde cáil d'fháil le na gceapadh ina nollamhna sinsearacha sa Nua-Scoil chomh luath agus a bheas sí bunaithe.
Níor cheart a cheapadh gur eolaíocht í eolaíocht na Fisice Cosmaí a bhaineas le habhair acadúla i bhfad ó ghnáthshaol na ndaoine agus ná cuireann éinne suim iontu ach na heolaithe sin atá ar tosach na cine daonna ag iarraidh teacht ar an bhfírinne. Ní mar sin atá. Is beag brainse eolaíochta atá chomh luachmhar do shaol náisiúin leis an bhFisic Chosmaigh, fiú an toradh teoiriciúil, is féidir feidhm phraiticiúil a bhaint as go luath. Is féidir a rá go ginearálta go bhfuil dhá roinn mhóra sa Fisic Chosmaigh, Geoifisic agus Astrofisic. Baineann Geofisic le próiseasaí fisiceacha na talún ar a mairimid, na mara atá timpeall orainn agus an aeir atá inar dtimpeall agus os ár gcionn.
Roinntear an Geoifisic, Fisic an Domhain, ina trí ranna de ghnáth: fisic na talún ar a dtugtar Geoifisic (sa chéill chumhaing den fhocal), fisic na Mór-Fhairrgí ar a dtugtar Muireolaíocht agus Fisic na ngás, ar a dtugtar meteoiraíocht. Baineann an Gheoifisic, sa chéill chumhaing den fhocal, le constitiúid, gluaiseacht, teocht agus Tarraing na Talún; le Seismicí, Adhmainteas na Talún Eleictreachas na Talmhan agus Radio-ghníomhacht. Baineann Muireolaíocht le hairdheana fisiceacha na bhfairrge, le cuilithe mara, le tonna agus le taifeach agus réimhinsin na dtaoide. Baineann meteoraíocht le cumasc agus le próiseasaí fisiceacha an atmosféara agus le haimsir agus aoráid.
Tá dlúbhaint ag na cúrsaí sin le feabhsú an tsaoil. Chun é rá go simplí, sé aidhm na Fisice Cosmaí gach uile eolas a chur ar an domhan seo againn agus an t-eolas sin do chur chun leasa saol an chine daonna. Beidh sé de dhualgas ar an Nua-Scoil seo a bheith páirteach san tóraíocht sin an eolais, agus a mheas cé an chaoi ab fhearr chun a bhfuil d'eolas faighte cheana agus chun a bhfaghfar fós de le cúnamh Dé, a chur chun tairbhe d'ár muintir féin.
Tá fás mór faoin eolaíocht sin le céad bliain anuas. Agus is iomdha slí in ar chabhraigh an fás sin go mór agus go tábhachtach le saol an chine daonna i gcúrsaí leighis, tionscail, tráchtála agus talmhaíochta. Tá an eolaíocht sin chomh hóg sin fós agus oiread sin mór-shaothair le déanamh nach féidir a rá roimh ré céard iad na fionnachtana atá rómhainn ná cén tairbhe d'fhéadfaí a bhaint astu dár muintir féin. Tá rud amháin cinnte, áfach: má bhraithimid an chumhacht atá ag an Eolaíocht ar chúrsaí daonna, tuigfimid gurab é leas an náisiúin a bheith páirteach le náisiúin síbhialta an comhain i gcomhthaighde an eolais. Tá brainsí áirithe taighde as ár raon ar fad, mar chosnóidís an iomarca chun gléasanna agus foirne do chur ar fáil. Ach sa brainse seo na Fisice Cosmaí, féadfaimid súil a bheith againn go gcoinneoimíd suas le gluaiseacht an eolais i gcoitinne agus go mbeimid páirteach inti ar chostas réasúnta íseal.
Tá soláthar déanta le haghaidh slí do bhrainsí éagsúla na scoile nua i mBaile Atha Cliath agus Dunsink. Tá an Rialtas tar éis Teach Faireacháin Dunsink d'fháil agus tá beartaithe é chur ar fáil chun úsáide ag an Scoil Nua. Is cosúil go gcaithfear roinnt atharú a chur ar an Tigh Faireacháin, á chur in oiriúint don obair nua agus ag soláthar breis feisteas teicniciúil. Ach ó caithfear an t-ullmhú sin a dhéanamh faoi stiúrú Buird Rialúcháin na Scoile, ná féadfar a cheapadh nó go mbeidh an Scoil ar bun, tuigfear nach féidir an costas do mheas go cruinn fós. Chomh fada agus is féidir a fheiceál roimh ré, ba cheart gur leor £15,000 mar bhun-chostas tosaigh agus tuairim is £9,000 mar chostas bliantúil ina dhiaidh sin, agus costas riaracháin do chur san áireamh.
An bhféadfadh an tAire a rá an ndéanfaidh an £9,000,000—a caithfear gach bliain— costas an Tighe Faireacháin agus costas na Scoile le chéile do ghlanadh?
An costas gach bliain, taobh amuigh den costas fundúireachta, £9,000,000 a bheas air; agus beidh suas go dtí £15,000,000 ar fad ar na costaisí a bhaineas le Dunsink agus mar sin. Tá tuairim is £10,000,000 den chostas sin ins an Meastachán seo i gcóir na bliana seo agus ní dóigh liom go mbeidh aon airgead sa mbreis ag teastáil. Tá £15,000,000 ar fad i gcóir na mbunchostas agus ansin sa bliain iomlán as seo amach beidh £9,000,000 ag teastáil i gcóir costaisí tuarastail agus riaracháin.
Ach an bhfuil san áireamh ansin costas an Tighe Faireacháin agus costaisí na Scoile? An amhlaidh atá an tAire a rá ná cosnódh sé ach £9,000,000 ar fad chun an Tighe Faireacháin do chur i gcóir agus chun na hOllamhna d'fháil, agus na gléasanna do cheannach?
Is é an costas iomlán a bheidh ar Dunsink agus mar sin ná timpeall £15,000,000. Is ar éigin, gidh go bhfuil airgead le spáráil i mbliana, go bhféadfaimis an méid sin do chaitheamh i mbliana.
Táim ag caint ar chostaisí bliantúla.
Ar chostaisí bliantúla, timpeall £9,000,000 atá ann agus beidh costaisí an Tighe Faireacháin sa rud sin, do réir mar fheicimse san eolas atá agam.
Agus nach mbeidh gá le gléasanna chun taighde a dhéanamh?
B'fhéidir go mbeidh cúpla míle punt ag teastáil ar dtúis, chun an taobh amuigh den Tigh Faireacháin a dhéanamh i gceart. Mar gheall ar úirlisí agus mar sin, ceaptar go mbeidh £2,000,000 ag teastáil; cosnóidh sé timpeall is £5,000,000 chun iad do cheannach, £5,000,000 chun iad do chur i gceart, timpeall £2,000,000 ar úirlisí teicniúla agus £1,000,000 i gcóir troscán agus mar sin. Sin timpeall £15,000,000. Ceaptar nach shroischfeadh sé £15,000,000, ach d'fhéadfaimis £15,000,000 a thógaint. Ansin, do réir mar fheicim, sa chaiteachas bliantúil ní bheidh ann ach tuarastail na hOllamhain agus cúntóirí, leabhra agus mar sin. Beidh £1,200 don riarachán, taobh amuigh de sin. Dá bhféadfaí obair chléireachais agus mar sin a bhaint den chuid eile, beidh tuairim is £1,200 á bhaint de.
Nach mbeidh aon ghléasanna ag teastáil don scoil sin, taobh amuigh den méid atá i Dunsink?
Ní bheidh mórán, ach méid a cheannós cúpla céad punt, b'fhéidir. Níl ach £500 i gcóir a leithéid, taobh amuigh de Dunsink, gach bliain.
This is a motion for setting up another school in the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies. It should be said in the beginning that nobody can have any objection to our engaging, even though we are a small country, in reasonable research and in international co-operation with regard to the advancement of scientific knowledge for the improvement of the world generally and, if possible, for the improvement of our own particular circumstances as well. I might perhaps advert, without quoting, to the debate on the setting up of the Institute for Advanced Studies in 1940. I indicated then — and this particular motion proves that I was quite right — that the institute was not merely to help Celtic studies or to advance theoretical physics but that what was happening under the Bill setting up the institute was that we were erecting a new educational superstructure, with new overhead costs, with Civil Service control, and with ample opportunities for Parliamentary debate and so on. When that kind of thing starts, it always keeps on growing and this is an example of the growth.
The first question that strikes one is that this matter can be divided into two parts about one of which every one of us who has given any thought to the matter at all would be in agreement. Dunsink Observatory is a necessary part of our equipment and I think it is work which requires to be done. It requires to be done all the year round. It requires to be done day and night and very considerable argument can be made for making that a Government service, a Government service which will be connected up with the other meteorological services, with our air service and perhaps with our Army. It would have a position analogous in certain directions to that of the Ordnance Survey which carries out many duties for, and which is very closely connected with, the military. Now on the other hand, apart from Dunsink which might reasonably be taken over as a Government institution and run by the Government, there is the School of Cosmic Physics. In spite of the Minister's explanation I am not very clear about the precise limitations of the words "cosmic physics." Indeed the word "cosmic" implies that there are no limitations of any kind whatever but I am not sure that astronomy is included in cosmic physics although it is a very old science.
It is.
In cosmic physics there are two divisions, one theoretical and the other practical. The theoretical part requires no apparatus. I wonder is the Minister right in saying that the only apparatus required for cosmic physics will cost no more than £500?
That would be the annual cost apart from Dunsink.
I wonder if that is so? I wonder if any practical work at all can be done for such an insignificant sum as that? This new school must start from scratch. It must create and equip a laboratory. One wonders what the equipment is, where it can be obtained, what its nature is, what its cost and maintenance will be? What strikes me in this respect, as it struck me in the case of the School of Celtic Studies, is whether this work could not be connected with one or other of the university colleges or even with Trinity College. The answer given in part by the Taoiseach when we were discussing the Bill was that there were jealousies between the university colleges and between the two universities. I think that can be very much overrated and overstated. As a matter of fact, certain work is at present divided between them. We must remember that the overhead expense of establishing a new research department in a university is very small by contrast with the cost of setting up Civil Service machinery to administer a service of this kind. For example, at the present moment you have a certain division of functions between the university colleges and even between the universities. You have the Dairy Science Faculty in Cork and the General Agricultural Faculty in Dublin. These are quite separate. You cannot do General Agriculture in either of the university colleges in Cork or Galway. You must do it in Dublin. You cannot do Dairy Science in Dublin; you must do it in Cork. Again you cannot complete Mechanical Engineering in Trinity; you must go to the College of Science which has been transferred to University College in Dublin. One of the conditions attached by the Government who was responsible for the transfer of the College of Science to University College in Dublin, was that the students of Trinity College must get facilities to do Mechanical Engineering there.
As a matter of fact, it is interesting to place on record that the professors, lecturers, demonstrators and students from Trinity College and University College are working, as far as I know —and it is not my bailiwick—without any friction whatsoever, working satisfactorily, in the College of Science. It could be argued that you could not possibly supply in duplicate all the machinery necessary to do mechanical engineering for the number of students in Trinity College or in University College. For that reason, one wonders why this particular research department could not be set up in one of the university colleges. It might be argued—I think it is an entirely false argument—that research must be divorced from university work and university teaching. As a matter of fact, unless I am greatly mistaken, the best English advances in cosmic ray researches have been achieved by a professor in Manchester University, named Blackett. I remember seeing him at University College some years ago.
He is a working professor of experimental physics in an English university and, at the same time, was able to make discoveries in the cosmic ray. It seems to me that there is some forgetfulness of that, and that the notion that research is something which has to be divorced from the universities and from university teaching—and from the university atmosphere which is an important thing—is a new and a wrong idea. Of course, with the development of atomic power, Governments may set up special departments now to make discoveries for military purposes, but it must be remembered about this, as about industrial research, that ultimately all this kind of research is based upon pure scientific research the training for which must be obtained in the universities.
It would have been true up to a few days ago to say that that kind of research is starved—and so is medical research starved—in the universities. There is going to be now a better arrangement about that, but the only way in which we can provide ourselves with scientists who can do honour to our name and bring benefits to the country is by the encouragement of scientific research in the universities and in university laboratories. I think the Minister will agree that there is no other method. As we are at present, foreigners will have, I think, to be brought in to do this work. One wonders whether, that being so, Irishmen will get the training that they deserve, and would certainly get in a university if the same provision were made in it. One wonders whether arrangements will be made to impart the necessary knowledge to Irishmen to enable them to go ahead with that kind of work. One wonders also whether we should not take first things first: whether this particular development should not be preceded by a more liberal endowment, and with the experience of several years of that liberal endowment of pure research in the universities in, for example, experimental and theoretical physics, particularly experimental physics and in medicine also.
We have a great habit of not putting first things first. We have the situation in which the Minister makes a speech this evening in Irish on cosmic physics while two weeks ago a Blasket islander died on an island off the coast because there is no telephone sufficiently good to reach the island so that no boat, and no priest or doctor reaches it. One wonders whether that sort of thing should not be remedied before we proceed with a more elaborate but a less fruitful and less profitable operation.
This is a motion for extending the scope of the Institute of Advanced Studies. It involves an extension of State activities, and a new burden on an already overstrained and sprawling Civil Service. I say that without making any reflection on civil servants. There is a great deal of work which they have been called upon to do which they are not fitted to do. The supervision of research of this particular type, and even the administration of this research—I doubt if that is a suitable job for the Civil Service which is already over-burdened. It also imposes new responsibilities in detail upon Ministers. It also burdens us with new and unascertainable costs. The cost of Dunsink Observatory could, I think, be measured and predicted, but I doubt whether the cost of research in cosmic physics, in relation to all the matters which the Minister mentioned, is measurable, and whether any real estimate can be given as to what all this is going to cost in two or three years' time.
There is no proof whatever that a suitable endowment to the universities or to university colleges would not produce better results in the long run than the setting up of this body for the carrying out of research. It adds, as I said in the beginning, a superstructure to our educational edifice, and I doubt very much that it is necessary. While I have no objection to the motion, and while I have no doubt it will be passed, I do think that a good deal of this work could be done here in the universities, just as it has been done in England and elsewhere in the universities, had the money, the laboratories and the building facilities been provided. If the facilities can be afforded for the Institute of Advanced Studies, then obviously they could be afforded to the universities, and if they were, the overhead costs would be very much less and the atmosphere itself for the prosecution of the work might, in fact, be a better atmosphere.
The fact that in research we ought to have international contacts is admitted. Could we not have these international contacts just as well within the universities? This is another example, as I say, of added responsibility by the State which, Heaven knows, has undertaken too many responsibilities already.
I rise to give my blessing to the general purpose of this motion. At the same time, I must say that if I thought it would have the effect of in any way impairing the quality or the volume of the research which is being done and which will continue to be done in the two universities I, for one, would not be sympathetic to it. I think there is room for research and more research in the universities on many different subjects. It will be an ill day for the universities if ever the spirit of research disappears from them.
There are certain kinds of research which involve a great deal of time and study and which do not necessarily produce tangible results, but yet may eventually produce results of the greatest importance, which must be done by means of a special institute and which, I think, are not quite proper for the work of a university. Therefore, I think there is a case for a special State-endowed institution to facilitate research of this highly abstruse and highly difficult kind which is not intimately associated with the teaching duties of professors anywhere, but nevertheless might, in due course, produce results that would be gladly absorbed in the various universities. While the Institute for Advanced Studies is a thing apart, it is also closely associated with the two universities. I must say that our experience of the institute—I am sure it is also the experience of the other university —has been an entirely happy one. It plays a useful part. One of its most valuable functions is that it does provide a common meeting place for the experts of the two universities in which they can pursue matters in which they are interested with the minimum of overlapping and certainly with no friction.
There is an Irish saying: "Do chun gloire De agus onora na hÉireann." It is a phrase that is entirely characteristic of the Irish outlook and that is entirely creditable to the Irish national character. It is to the honour of Ireland that it should create and foster institutions for the study of cosmic physics and of astronomy which is part of cosmic physics. We have the highest authority for saying that the heavens declared the glory of God and the firmament showeth His handiwork. While we should always keep our feet firmly planted on the ground, nevertheless I think it is also appropriate that we should have our heads in the clouds and even above the clouds, and that we should encourage the highest flights of the human intellect. In such regions, highly-gifted men pursue studies with reference to which human nature is assimilated almost to the Divine, and so I am not unduly perturbed whether a particular institution gives tangible results or not. The important thing is that it should provide facilities for the development and extension of the different kinds of human studies. It may be useful to put this matter in some historical perspective because I think that we have come to some kind of watershed in the history of scientific studies and I hope that Dunsink which has a great historical past will have just as great a future. Dunsink was established as an observatory by Provost Andrews who was provost from 1758 to 1774. He was a very interesting type of person. He was not only a wit but a politician, a person interested in the arts and an admirer of the famous actress Peg Woffington.
He was good company at dinner and had certain interests in architecture, in fact, the characteristic appearance of College Green owes everything to Provost Andrews' taste. This reminds us of the debt we owe to history. He died in 1774 leaving £3,000 and certain lands at Dunsink for the building of an observatory. The observatory was built between 1782 and 1786 in one of the very best times of 18th-century architecture. This building in some ways bears comparison with Arus an Uachtaráin. It is a most noble building set in beautiful rural surroundings and its passing into the ownership of the State is something we should regard as a matter of considerable national importance. This observatory had a long and even brilliant history as part and parcel of our activities in Trinity College, Dublin. Of course, the greatest and most outstanding name connected with it is that of Sir William Rowan Hamilton and I would like for the purpose of having it on the records of the House to give some information about him. On the resignation of John Brinkley in 1826 he was succeeded by a lad who at 17 years of age had paid him a visit bearing with him two mathematical papers entitled "Osculating Parabola to Curves of Double Curvature" and "On Contacts between Algebraic Curves and Surfaces". At 22 years of age William Rowan Hamilton, still an undergraduate, was elected to the chair and at once gave himself to that series of profound researches which culminated in the discovery of the system of quaternions, and place him among the greatest mathematicians of any age or country. The marvellous genius of Hamilton in the realm of abstract science was combined with a singular personal charm and with a deep love and considerable aptitude for poetry. He became the friend not only of men like Herschel and De Morgan, but of Coleridge and Wordsworth, and was visited by the latter poet at Dunsink where a shady avenue still bears his name.
Before Hamilton's death, the present magnificent equatorial, with its 12 inch object glass, was erected, and an equally fine meridian circle was added in 1873, during the tenure of the chair by his successor, Dr. Francis Brunnow. There were other famous names connected with Dunsink, but this is of outstanding importance. Senators will remember that in 1943 Hamilton's discoveries were celebrated by the issue of a special postage stamp. Astronomer royals succeeded one another at Dunsink right down to 1921. I remember personally the last one, Professor H. C. Plummer. He left us in 1921. At this time, after the first World War, a situation had come into existence in which it was financially impossible for Trinity College, Dublin, to continue the study of astronomy in the way that modern conditions required. The equipment required a certain amount of modernisation and we had not the money. Consequently, for a decade or two we had Dunsink, but not an astronomer royal, and we were not happy about the position. We felt that we could not adequately maintain and equip it for its original object. This situation, which was quite unsatisfactory from our point of view, continued for a couple of decades, until the idea occurred to those concerned to have the observatory transferred to the institute at a valuation. There was some difficulty about arriving at a fair price, as observatories do not come on the market every day. From one point of view the observatory was a white elephant and worth little or nothing, but from the point of view of the racket that has been going on in property, it might have been possible to sell it for a greyhound-racing track or a cinema at £15,000 or £20,000. The idea of selling it for such purposes was never considered by the governing body of Trinity College, Dublin, and if the idea had been suggested I am quite sure it would have been rejected out of hand. We were conscious of our moral obligations with regard to it. It was a happy solution to the whole problem from our point of view when it was possible to transfer Dunsink to the institute for a merely nominal consideration. We are glad that in this way the original purpose of this foundation is going to be fulfilled and under more ample auspices than we were able to provide. I would like to emphasise that we are transferring to the State not a derelict building, and it is not a derelict building, because recently the college spent £1,000 in installing electric light and water supply.
It is occupied by a tenant and it is a habitable structure. We are not transferring to the State a mere building. We are transferring something precious and of long standing associations in the realms of learning and culture. From one point of view it may appear that the State is gaining what we have lost. That would be a wrong point of view for, after all, whatever we may have been in our origins, history has long since made us an organic element in the structure of the Irish nation and, therefore, the nation's gain is also our gain. We are quite satisfied that the future of Dunsink is safe in the hands of the institute. And yet we do not part from Dunsink without a pang. I think the poet, Wordsworth, said apropos of the fate of the Republic of Venice:—
"Men are we, and must grieve, when even the shade of that which once was great, has passed away."
Dunsink once was great, but there is no reason in the world why, under the new and ampler auspices, it should not recover and even, perhaps, excel the limits of its former greatness and we look forward to a revival of that greatness under the new régime.
I hope that the nation will fully appreciate the great significance and importance of this valuable acquisition. If I might make a suggestion, I think it would be an admirable place in which to hold public functions such as garden parties and the like, to which not only Senators and Deputies might be invited, but representatives of learned bodies from all Ireland and from neighbouring countries might also be invited on suitable occasions to grace such assemblies with their presence. The weather at the moment does not suggest that kind of thing, but we may have a summer again and whether or not that suggestion is adopted I hope that Senators will make it their business to pay a visit to Dunsink, because it is one of the least known places in Dublin and one of the places that deserves to be best known.
Finally, I have only got to say that in spite of one's mixed feelings on an occasion such as this I nevertheless wish well to the future of Dunsink under the new auspices and I say in the official language "Bail ó Dhia ar an obair."
May I, as a heretic in regard to these subjects make a very few comments? I will not keep the House long.
I must confess that when I was listening to the discussion on this, I first of all threw back my mind about 16 years. I remember coming out on one Sunday morning after having performed my duties, and hearing—it was in the month of June, 1931—certain speeches being made outside. The theme of the speeches was that this poor little country was being run on a great and imperial scale and as well as I can recollect on that particular day —I was not at my own church, I think it was down in Kilcullen—and as well as I can recollect the speech being made in that by-election was by Deputy Derrig. We have travelled a long way from that to 1947 and it appears to me that if ever there was a case of considering whether we want to run this island on an imperial scale or on a scale according to its size and wealth that this is one.
There are, as Senator Hayes pointed out, two very definite and distinct aspects of this situation. There is the aspect of the Dunsink Observatory, the only aspect which was dealt with by Senator Professor Johnston, and I might point out, perhaps, to the Senator that everything he said stressed the case that was made by Senator Hayes. Everything he said in talking of the glories that were Dunsink, stressed the point made by Senator Hayes that the proper method to deal with this was as an appendix to the university.
When Hamilton was working at Dunsink it was working with a university. Senator Professor Johnston's whole argument would have been better stressed, I would suggest, if he had drawn the point that it would have been more fitting for a grant to have been given to the university to carry on the work rather than that it should be carried on by a new Civil Service Department. That is only one aspect. The next and the other aspect of this is what I regard as being on the imperial scale. I believe this is a case in which we should consider first things first. If this school that is going to be set up is going to make any appreciable contribution, it is going to do so at tremendous cost. If the cost is not going to be tremendous, then it is only going to tinker with the subject and it would be far better that the cost of tinkering would be given to some university.
An Tánaiste is very fond, when there are discussions here about social services, children's allowances and so forth, of referring the matter to allowances that are paid in other countries and of calling on us to remember the size and the wealth of our country in comparison with the wealth and size of Great Britain. It appears that his advice in this respect would have been better heeded by the Government in this suggestion of opening a new Department of the Civil Service. I must confess quite frankly that I see in regard to the School of Cosmic Physics, no advantage that can be gained to us that would not be gained a thousand times more if the money that is being spent on this were allocated where it is so badly needed— to the funds for medical research, which would be of some use to common humanity.
It is rather a pity that there has not been some little propaganda among the people regarding this cosmic physics. In the local and other papers I have seen letters from time to time which indicate, in the first place, that people do not understand what cosmic physics means; and, in the second place, they do not seem to realise the cost of this development could be described as infinitesimal compared with expenditure in other directions.
I was looking through the National Income Return recently and I find there the expenditure for 1944—that is the latest I have available—on tobacco and drink, amounted to £35.4 million: on amusements the expenditure was £2.9 million, practically £3,000,000. While I must confess I am not quite sure of the estimated total expenditure I understand it is estimated—the annual expenditure—at round about £9,000. £9,000 out of a total expenditure such as I have quoted is after all a comparatively small sum. As far as I am concerned I intend to support the development of this subject. I am not going to enter into the merits of the School of Advanced Studies as compared with the universities. There is, I am aware, a very big volume of opinion in the country which thinks that the university would be the proper place for this and other studies. One thing that could be said in favour of the university is that the professors who undertake research work would be more closely in touch with their students than those engaged in the School of Advanced Studies. That could be said in favour of the university. On that aspect of the matter, I shall not say more. I should like, however, to make a couple of points in favour of the subject from a purely educational standpoint. Influenced by a number of enthusiasts here in Dublin who are members of the Dublin Astronomical Society, I arranged some lectures on astronomy down in Tipperary. One of the leaders of the movement here was good enough to give those lectures. What surprised me most was the wonderful interest taken by the people in such lectures. The subject seemed very remote from their ordinary life. They were lifted up in the heavens as it were studying the motions of the planets and the stars, but country people even from the most remote areas took a very great interest in the lectures. On looking into the matter more fully, I found that we had been merely linking up with something that had been in existence practically a century ago.
A parish priest from near Clonmel gave me a manuscript some time ago which had been written in a hedge school about four or five miles from the town. The remarkable thing about the notes kept by the student were the wonderful diagrams indicating a very perfect notion of planetary motions of a complex character. He was able to calculate the Golden Number, the Epact and other quantities of that kind, which the majority of people at the present day know little about. There was an old tradition there and I began to wonder whether that tradition might be in any way linked with Dunsink Observatory, which had been established some time before.
I am looking forward then to a time when, as a result of the development of this School of Cosmic Physics, a similar interest will be developed throughout the country, particularly in the rural areas. The rural areas are being depopulated, according to the statistics, and we must all agree that there is a tremendous change as regards the population. The people are drifting towards the towns. I submit that anything that can add interest to rural life will help to stem that movement, to some degree, at least. If we could revive the old interest in this rather remote subject of astronomy, it would make one little contribution towards the movement formerly described as "back to the land", but which might be more correctly described as a movement for getting people to remain on the land.
Senator Johnston mentioned two very eminent men associated with Dunsink—Sir William Rowan Hamilton and Mr. Brinkley, who was an 18th century astronomer. We are all familiar with the wonderful reputation as a mathematician of Sir William Rowan Hamilton. Before passing from him, perhaps I might mention a lesser-known person, the Earl of Ross, whose name is associated with the famous telescope. At Ballingarry, a County Limerick man, named Baggott, ran a school and his mathematical attainments were such that he was in constant correspondence with the great French astronomer, Laplace. That school was in existence in 1809, some time about the date of the school in the neighbourhood of Clonmel, to which I have referred. Cosmic physics has a very mysterious sound, and Senator Hayes inquired from the Minister whether astronomy could be regarded as part of it. On looking into one of the most recent American textbooks, written by three professors attached to Princeton University—Russell, Dugan and Stewart— I find that they divide the subject of astronomy into seven different branches. We are immediately concerned with astrophysics and this part of the subject deals with the physical characteristics of the heavenly bodies, their brightness and spectroscopic peculiarities, their temperature and radiation, the nature and condition of their atmospheres, surfaces and interiors and all phenomena which indicate or depend upon their physical condition. That is the particular branch of astronomy with which we appear to be concerned. I should like the Minister to give his views regarding the other six branches of the subject named in this textbook—practical astronomy, astronomy of position, celestial mechanics, descriptive astronomy and nautical astronomy. I think the Minister did mention something about nautical astronomy. These are all branches of one subject, and I presume that there will be an impulse in the direction of those branches in addition to the one directly associated with cosmic physics.
Listening to some recent lectures, I heard some things that rather surprised me and which would, probably, surprise some members of the House. The density of some of the stars is so very great that even a thimbleful will weigh about two or three tons. We find it hard to believe that but it is fairly well established. Then, we begin to wonder how we know these things. We must know something about cosmic physics and we must understand mathematics and something about the spectroscope before appreciating the reasons which lead to this information. Although these bodies are so very far away, it is possible to examine their condition, their temperature and their chemical composition and, in that way, we are able to keep abreast of the most modern developments in science. Since we are now merely linking up with something that had been in existence many years ago, we are not doing anything really new. I think that this proposal is entitled to all possible support and, so far as I am concerned, I shall support it.
I might, perhaps, quote from this fairly recent book by way of explanation for members who had not, perhaps, the time to go into the matter. The book states:—
"There is no sharp boundary between astronomy and other physical sciences. It is so intimately related to physics that it is often quite impracticable to say whether a given piece of work should be regarded as belonging more to one science than to the other. Its relation to mathematics is almost as close. In problems concerning the formation and constitution of the earth, astronomy overlaps the field of geology. In questions dealing with the structure of atoms, it comes in touch with chemistry. In discussions of the length of time during which the earth has been habitable and the possible habitability of other planets, astronomy meets biology. In the consideration of those errors of observation which are personal to the observer, it utilises principles of physiology and psychology."
Therefore, it is not so remote from our lives as might appear at first sight.
The weather is still bad and we are inclined to get a little bit depressed as a result. Accordingly, I may be allowed to be a little facetious for the moment. Down in Tipperary, people have been surprised that a man like Senator Quirke should attach his name to a motion such as this. The Senator is well known to be a man who keeps close observation on the things of the earth. As we grow older or become anxious about our health, we lift our minds heavenwards and think of charitable donations or the disposal of our property or, as it is sometimes put, increase our fire insurance. Many people asked me what was wrong with Senator Quirke that he was beginning to act in this way. I assured them that there was nothing wrong with Senator Quirke, that his name was attached merely to comply with the Standing Orders of this House.
There has been a considerable amount of discussion on this subject. It is regarded as being something ridiculously remote from everything practical. It is only necessary for Senators to give the matter a little attention to see that it is not by any means so remote and that it has a practical importance for the future of this nation. We cannot afford to be left as a sort of by-wash away from the great scientific movements of the day. This will not cost such an immense amount of money and, even if it does, and the pressure is being felt, I would suggest that some little pressure might be put upon the people who can afford to spend such immense sums on various frivolities for which this nation is becoming famous. For example, we have great schools of dancing going on every night. One can scarcely pass through the streets of the city without hearing the strains of the waltz, and the same applies to country towns. Then there are the great industries of horse-racing, dog-racing and the pictures; and on top of all this you have vast sums spent on drink and tobacco. The expenditure involved here is really infinitesimal. The subject is a very important one from the educational, the purely scientific and the industrial standpoint.
Tá aigne an Tí ar fad ar thaobh an rúin seo agus ní fheadar an fiú a thuille ama a chaitheamh leis. Táimid ar aon aigne, do réir deallraimh, agus níl fonn ormsa caint a dhéanamh faoin cheist, ach a mholadh gur tairiscint mhaith í, gur beartú maith a leithéid seo de scoil a chur ar bun, agus gur maith faoi dheoidh é chur ar siúl anois, nuair atá an t-airgead ann agus na hOllúin ann go bhfuil clú agus cáil orthu sa ghnó seo agus go bhfuil siad toilteanach a gcuid eolais a chur ar fáil do lucht léinn na tíre seo. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an tarna focal le rá faoin cheist.
Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire ar a fheabhas agus a shoiléiré a bhí an ráiteas a thug sé nuair a bhí sé ag míniú fáthanna agus cuspóirí na scoile agus an obair atá le déanamh. Is annamh a chuala mé léiriú chomh soiléir san in aon teanga agus a dhein sé sa Ghaeilge an tráthnóna seo. Traoslaím dó agus molaim é toisc gur i nGaeilge a dhein sé é—sa teanga ba chóir a úsáid i ngach gnó sa Tigh seo.
Maidir leis an scoil féin agus í a chur ar bun i bhfoirm scoile neamhspleách, nó í a chur ar bun faoi scáth Ollscoile nó i gcomhcheangal le hOllscoileanna, sé an cheist a thugann cuid mhaith machnaimh do dhaoine—agus a chuirceann beagáinín imní orthu, b'fhéidir— ná cén fáth ná fuil gnóthaí mar sin ar siúl cheana féin ag na hOllscoileanna. Cad a thug ar an Rialtas agus ar an bpobal an scoil a chur ar bun? An é ná fuil iontaoibh go leor ag na hOllscoileanna astu féin nó ná fuil an intleacht acu chun gnó mór mar sin a ghabháil orthu fhéin agus é a shaothrú le fuinneamh agus fonn maitheasa an phobail? Níl mé ag machnamh ar an scoil féin ach ar na fáthanna ná féadfadh an Ollscoil obair na scoile sin a dhéanamh, más fíor-Ollscoil í. Ba cheart go mbeadh Institiúidí den chineál sin neamhspleách ar fad.
Mar adúirt an Seanadóir Ó hAodha, is fíor gur foirgneamh uachtarach na scoileanna ard-léinn atá á gcur ar bun in Éirinn. Ba cheart do lucht machnaimh staidéar a dhéanamh ar na fáthanna go bhfuil na nithe sin á gcur ar bun taobh amuigh agus iad neamhspleách de na hOllscoileanna, an áit ar chóir gur iontu a bheadh gnóthaí dá leithéid seo á saothrú.
Caithfidh má a adhmáil gurab í an scoil atá á cur ar bun anois an chóir is fearr chun freastail ar an staidéar chosmach atá á thosnú againn. Ach tá an cheist eile ann agus b'fhéidir gur chóir fiosrúcháin a dhéanamh ar na fáthanna ná fuil an obair ar siúl faoi láthair sna hOllscoileanna.
Molaim an tAire ar son soiléire agus éifeachta a mhínithe, ag tabhairt eolais don Tigh agus don phobal ar an gnó seo, chun go dtuigfimis fáth na ceiste i gceart.
It should not be, and it is not, necessary for anybody to urge on this House the desirability of spending such a small sum as it is anticipated will be spent on investigating the nature of things that are and in improving our knowledge of the world that is around us and venturing somewhat further into the unknown.
We are, as has often been observed, a nation whose physical assets are small and, like other small nations, we must seek to supply that deficiency by the greater use of our brains and our mental industry. I think we should welcome, as I do welcome, what I consider to be the imaginative concept of this School of Higher Studies and its latest development. Believing that it is unnecessary to say anything more in favour of the project, I shall turn to one or two of the reasons which have been urged, not so much against it as in a partial and hesitant criticism of it.
It has been suggested that we cannot expect any great good to come out of these particular schools because modern physics are largely a matter of expensive equipment—some branches are. Over a large area of modern physics, advance is probably not possible without a very vast expenditure of money but that does not apply to all branches. I wonder whether this House would agree with me when I suggest that what are now regarded as commonplaces but what were at one time prime discoveries of the nature of cosmic physics, could be and were accomplished, entirely without instruments? Would the House agree with me that perhaps the most cardinal discovery in the field of cosmic physics was the diurnal rotation of the earth and that the next most cardinal discovery was the fact that the planets and the earth went round the sun in an ellipsis yearly? How were these facts discovered? They were discovered without a single instrument, except the human eye. They were discovered and established in the fourth century before Christ by two Greeks and these men had no money and no expensive equipment.
Turning to geophysics, one of the most elementary but still one of the most important discoveries was the fact that the earth was round and that its circumference and diameter could be measured. Yet the measurement of the circumference and the diameter of the earth within 4 per cent. of accuracy was discovered in the third century B.C. by another Greek, Eratosthenes, merely with the aid of a sun dial and through his own observations of a deep well. If these epoch-making discoveries could be made by the human brain, without the aid of instruments I think we may well anticipate that when the results of physical experiments are published by all the great investigators of the world and by all the astronomers, the human brain in Ireland, working on these results will be able to make discoveries which are not less important and not less far-reaching.
It has been suggested also that the immediate results of these particular lines of research may not prove of practical benefit. If the emphasis is laid on the word "immediate", one may be disposed to agree with that. The immediate result of the discovery of radium by Madame Curie was not its use as a potent weapon in the cure and treatment of cancer and the immediate results of the discovery of the science of bacteriology was not the revolution in medicine which has happened since. It may be taken almost as axiomatic that things which have turned out most useful in the development of human knowledge have had their origin in the discoveries of those who were stimulated by the desire to engage in research in pure knowledge and not in the work of people who were interested merely in mechanical developments which could be turned into ready cash. I think we may anticipate, however, that there will probably be a practical outcome to these researches. Although geology has shown us pretty conclusively that we cannot hope to get coal, iron or oil in this country, yet the research of geophysicists may tell us something more about the under-layers of our island and may, perhaps, put us in the way of researches into sources of power, whether they be tidal, whether they be radiant or whether they be rare minerals which may show a very pleasing dividend upon the money expended. While that should not be our object alone, in this as in so many other cases, the by-product of idealistic research is often a practical good.
Lastly it has been suggested that this institute will be in conflict with our universities. Again, if I may agree with my colleague, if I thought that were going to be so, I would have to consider whether it was not an exceedingly serious objection to this motion but the type of study which will be pursued in this school is one which ordinarily would not form any portion of the curriculum of even an honours student in a university and would not ordinarily be taught by any professor in a university. In so far as postgraduate work is concerned, in so far as professors and lecturers themselves may be interested in these subjects, I think the school will be found a convenient centre for those who do not wish to be absorbed too much in what I might call the lower branches of the various investigations. They will be able to meet together and carry out their work in an atmosphere which, of course, should exist in every university research department but which is sometimes very much disturbed by the necessity of taking pass classes and demonstrating to pass students. When I find that as a whole, the members of the university welcome the idea I think we need not lay too much emphasis upon the possibility of some kind of— the word "friction" would be quite unsuitable—conflict arising. If it did occur, we would be safe in leaving it to the staffs of the universities and of the new school to find a way of resolving it, and of making a contribution between these various elements that would be helpful, each to each.
Was there any suggestion of a conflict?
I probably misused the word "conflict", but I will take any word that the Senator likes to suggest.
When I first saw this motion I confess that, in my ignorance, I did not know what it meant. After listening to the lengthy and very informative statement of the Minister, and the subsequent addresses of Senator Hayes, Johnston and other speakers, I have learned quite a lot this evening as to what this School of Cosmic Physics proposes to do when set up. I agree, however, with Senator O'Reilly that, before launching on this project, it would be desirable that some propaganda should be carried on throughout the country as to the necessity for this particular school and the good that its research work would effect in so far as the national economy is concerned. Until that has been done, I think that the establishment of such an institute at the present time, even with the arguments that have been advanced in favour of it this evening, will not be accepted by the majority of the people as a national necessity, particularly at the present juncture.
My approach to this proposal—in my ignorance, if you like—is quite different from that of other Senators who have spoken on it. My approach to it is this, that at the present time, when the majority of our people are put to the necessity of having to exist on less than half rations of food and other essential commodities, such a discussion is not appropriate. The people in the greater part of the country at the present time are suffering through the absence of fuel. I would not like to be amongst the party that while such is so at the present time, would try to bring them the cold comfort of talking to them about such questions as astrophysics, geophysics, oceanography, and so on. The time is quite inappropriate for talking to the people on such questions. I quite understand that the Government and public representatives are only too anxious to do anything they possibly can to bring relief to the people of the country generally, and not only to them but to their own homes as well, because at this particular time every section of the community is suffering. When I say that I consider the present time is most unsuitable for the introduction of this motion, it is not because I do not realise that much good can come out of it, but rather because I hold that it affords very cold comfort and very poor sympathy for our people who are now suffering great privations. I think that the majority of them will say that instead of discussing such subjects we ought to be busy about matters of more vital concern to them.
I do not think that Senator Ruane need permit his anxiety about other matters that should be attended to to make him feel that these matters are being neglected just because we propose to set up this school and spend a certain amount of money upon it. If we were to wait until every possible problem confronting the country were solved before we made provision for education or learning or scientific research we would have to wait indefinitely. I see no reason why the present time should not be as appropriate for that—perhaps it is more appropriate—as any other time.
As Senator Johnston reminded us, we are at a watershed of history at the present time. It is quite obvious that we are entering on a new phase so far as the bearing of science upon the world generally and the lives of the peoples is concerned. In this, as in the case of aviation, we have to make a choice. We had to make a choice as to whether, having regard to our resources, we would take part in the development of aviation and make this country a centre for international aviation. Now, we are presented with the same choice, that we are asked to spend money on a project of this kind. I have no objection whatever to the expenditure being queried or to questions being asked as to whether the country is going to get value for it or not. I think Senator Kingsmill Moore reminded us that it might very well be that an investment in research, or for educational purposes, might have a value that could really be described as an investment, even though it may not have practical results in the very near future.
In this particular case, practical results are not at all excluded. Senator Ruane asked whether the country should not be told what the practical value of this work may be. He suggested that it is really through lack of knowledge perhaps that people are critical of the setting up of the school. I should say that the different branches of cosmic physics include, for example, such matters as climatology—information regarding, for example, rainfall, which is necessary for various State activities, not to mention private ones. It also includes meteoro-biology, which has an effect on meteorological phenomena on human beings and plants.
Obviously, this has a bearing on such diseases as tuberculosis and rickets which may give us knowledge regarding the incidence of epidemics. Tuberculosis research centres exist elsewhere and are connected with meteorological observatories. Weather forecasting is obviously most important for such matters as agriculture, tourism, the building trade, transport, flood and frost warning, warfare, etc.
Aeronautical meteorology is of special importance for us in this country at the present time since we have taken our place, as I have mentioned, on the cross-roads of the world air routes. A good many of our young men will be finding their way into the meteorological service. The world airfield will grow in extent and importance. One of the things that will result from the setting up of this school will be that we shall be in a position, please God, to train our own meteorologists. If matters develop in a favourable way, it well may happen that our universities will be able to take these young men who have pursued higher studies in cosmic physics and appoint them as lecturers, and, later, perhaps as professors within the university, and so give a good deal of attention to this work, if it should happen that this particular branch of science extended in such a way as to make it feasible for the universities to consider it worth while.
There is agricultural meteorology. The importance of that need scarcely be stressed. We know how important weather forecasts are in the case of agriculture. There is oceanography. This is an island, and the study of cosmic currents, and matters affecting navigation will undoubtedly be of great importance to us.
Even in Finland there is an Institute Thalassologique the staff of which according to information received as late as October 18th, 1945, consists of the director professor, three chiefs of sections, two scientific collaborators and the necessary clerical staff. Then there is the analysis of geographical periodic phenomena which has been found to have a bearing on the economic life of peoples and has been studied by people like Sir William Beveridge who has found that it has a bearing on his economic studies. At present it is being studied in the United States. There is terrestrial magnetism and the question of a national magnetic survey of the country is as important and is as necessary as its geodetic survey and cartographic representation. It is possible, by it, to do prospecting for minerals and oil and this is a branch that has been developed in other countries. So that practically at every turn we find that some branch or other of cosmic physics has a direct bearing on the social and economic life and on the earth and air about us. Astronomy has been known as having an important bearing not only on navigation but on agriculture as well, for thousands of years. Senator Kingsmill Moore has given us examples of this. If we only made ourselves acquainted with these things I do not think that there would be such criticism on setting up this school of cosmic physics. It is not suggested that the expenditure is very great. I congratulate the Seanad on having approached the subject in a sober and serious and not unsympathetic way. We have had statements made that the expenditure is very great. Senator Sweetman referred to "the grand imperial scale" and mentioned that Hamilton worked in a university. The Senator suggested that we would only get value from the Institute of Advanced Studies at tremendous cost. I am informed that at one of the most successful observatories, at Kapteynolo, Groningen, Holland, there is very little in the way of astronomical apparatus but the work there of observers and astronomers is done largely by pencil and paper and a certain number of calculating machines. Small countries not able to provide equipment necessary for all the branches of physics are certainly able to provide, for a limited expenditure, all that is necessary for this branch of both theoretical and cosmic physics. That expenditure is very small indeed.
If we require proof of this we should look at countries like Norway, Austria, Denmark and Finland, where facilities for the study of cosmic physics already exist. So far back as 1890 cosmic physics were taken up for study in. Austria and there were no less than six institutes there, in Vienna, Innsbruck, Graz, Prague, Czaernowitz and Leimberg, besides the already existing meteorological, hydrological, geodetic and other State services. Soon other States followed, States large and small, which correctly grasped the educational and economic value of this branch of science. One may mention the small country of Norway with its 2.8 million inhabitants which, for decades, besides having an excellent meteorological State service, possesses the "Geophysical Institute" in Bergen and the "Institute for Cosmic Physics" in Oslo. So far back as 1926 pioneer work had been carried on at Bergen Observatory with the result that every single weather forecast in the world to-day, including those by our own meteorological service, is based on the work done in Bergen. And to-day, after five years of occupation and reduced to poverty by a most cruel war, Norway maintains, in addition to its meteorological State service in Oslo, the famous forecast centre in Bergen, the Geophysical Institute in Bergen and the Institute of Cosmic Physics in Bergen. There must be lacking there the criticism of the type we have grown accustomed to in this country both inside and outside the Oireachtas, because the Norwegians, for reasons which must seem good to them, are maintaining those services. Speaking on the London Conference Extraordinaire des Directeurs, Professor Hesselberg, Director of the Norwegian Meteorological Service, stated, about 12 months ago:—
"In Norway we continued the publication of our Year Book during the war. We also continued to issue the scientific papers. We started a new scientific series—‘Meteorogiske Annalers’.”
Similar conditions with respect to the high standard of cosmic physics studies exist in Denmark, Switzerland and Czechoslovakia, to mention only the small States. The case of Turkey deserves special mention. This Asiatic State, which for decades was called "Europe's sick man", has since 1916 a modern meteorological service, and in 1933 took advantage of securing the services of dismissed German scientists. A modern university was established in Istanbul which included the study of astronomy and geophysics. A modern astronomical observatory was erected and a textbook on astronomy in the Turkish language was published. Occupation with cosmic physics is widespread with nations great and small, and even in those countries which have to economise in matters of national expenditure. There is an International Commission for Agricultural Meteorology, and the intensity of research on this subject is proved by a publication of the Research Branch of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries in London for the period of 1924 to 1936 which contains no less than 1,100 references. Senator Hayes suggested that the school we propose to establish here will be under Civil Service control. I do not know why he thinks this. So far as the administration of the institute is concerned, it is entirely self-contained. The Government does not interfere in the administration. It is completely autonomous and independent and I trust it will remain so. Appointments on the governing body and to the senior professorships are made by the President on the advice of the Government.
When we speak of this work being done by the universities we must have regard to the burdens which have been thrown on the universities not alone by the enormous increases in the number of students—we have 3,000 students, for example, at University College, Dublin, which is said to have accommodation for really only about one-third of that number—and side by side with that we have to have regard to the fact that during the past 100 years, since the time of Rowan Hamilton, science has expanded enormously. For example, physics at that time included all this branch—cosmic physics—but in the same way as the electrical branch of science was taken apart in the course of time, it was found that cosmic physics was growing at such a rate that special arrangements would have to be made to deal with it. We had separate institutions, as I have pointed out, set up all over the Continent for many years past to continue research in that branch. If it is suggested now that this work should be handed over to the universities, I should like to ask how our universities are in a position to make provision for the equipment of the school, the provision of professors of the calibre of men like Professor Schroedinger who has brought such lustre to the school with which he is represented. How will that be possible? Where is the disadvantage so far as expenditure is concerned in having an additional institution? Was it an advantage to the country, for example, that the College of Science was absorbed and swallowed up by University College, Dublin? Would it not have been better, perhaps, if it had been preserved as a separate institution? At least there are two opinions on that matter.
The expenditure in regard to these schools is at the very minimum so far as equipment is concerned. It depends very largely, then, on the men who we are going to get in there. We are fortunate in regard to the new school, in being able to get three men of first-class European reputation.
This school will be a centre, as was pointed out, where the universities can meet on common ground. We have three university colleges on the secular side of the National University, and Trinity. The four of them can meet and have met on common ground there for years past. Is it not an advantage both to the universities and the institute that that should be possible? Cannot the institute benefit by getting young scholars in from the university, from the graduates who show special qualifications for higher research work? Will not the universities benefit—as they certainly have benefited, and as I think they would be glad to acknowledge—by the seminars held by professors in the institute to which university professors and lecturers may go to refresh themselves and where they are brought into contact with men who, as it has been said, are working on the frontiers of knowledge? Will they not go back to the universities and will it not be to the advantage of the universities? Have these professors time— having regard to the number of students they have to deal with, the calls that are made on them for examinations and for their ordinary teaching work—to give the benefit of a considerable part of their time to research work? And if they are able to do so, would they have the opportunity? Would they have the facilities for examining a particular problem as the professors in the institute certainly would have? They will be free from day to day, and from month to month, and year to year, to continue the application of their minds to special problems. They will be entirely free to co-ordinate their work with the work of scientists elsewhere and in that way they will be able to give an amount of time to pure research and, if necessary, to indicate methods of application of their work to the practical problems of life that I suggest the university professors at one of our universities at present are not in a position to do.
I was glad to hear Senator Johnston refer to the history of Dunsink Observatory. I think it is right that attention should be called to the scientific history of that institution, the great men that have been associated with it. It is only proper that the university for which the professor spoke should take pride in its association with the observatory and I am glad to reciprocate his good wishes for the success of the observatory and the new school which is being founded. The authorities of Trinity College were fully conscious of the sacrifice they were making in handing over Dunsink Observatory which had been an honourable part of the equipment of the record of scientific work in the university over such a long period. I fully appreciate the feelings they had and the wrench it must have been to them to part with it but they did it because they believed that it was a good thing in the national interest and I think it is a good augury for the future that they have shown that attitude. I would like to say their attitude generally in the negotiation and in the transfer of Dunsink was marked by understanding.
I do not know that there are any other matters to which I might refer. I have tried to deal briefly with the points which have been raised. I know that Senators are not anxious to stay too long here and I can only hope they will be satisfied with this rather brief statement.
The Minister kept the good wine for the last.
Question put and agreed to.
The Seanad adjourned at 9 p.m.sine die.