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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Mar 1947

Vol. 33 No. 16

Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill, 1947—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is in nearly all respects the counterpart in relation to widows' and orphans' pensions, of the National Health Insurance Bill and follows the same pattern.

Part II re-enacts, with certain minor modifications, the provisions of Emergency Powers (No. 382) Order, 1946, made on 14th June last. The Part consists of only four sections. The first of these sections, Section 4, makes in relation to excepted persons provision similar to that made in Section 3 of the National Health Insurance Bill in relation to persons insured under the National Health Insurance Acts. Broadly speaking, excepted persons are non-manual employees of the State, local authorities and certain statutory companies earning less than £250 a year, and the section provides that in their case, where sums purporting to be contributions under the Pensions Acts have been paid in good faith after the person has ceased to be insurable under the Acts, such sums will be accepted as contributions and confer on the person concerned the same rights in regard to insurance as if they were, in fact, contributions. The next section extends the "free" insurance period in the case of excepted persons from 12 to 18 months, as in the case of persons insured under the National Health Insurance Acts. Section 6 deals with the insurance of soldiers. Section 7 relates to persons who left or may leave this country on or after the 3rd September, 1939, and who die or return before a date to be fixed by the Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, and provides that, if certain conditions are satisfied in relation to contributions under the Pensions Acts before such persons left the State, the period of their absence will be disregarded for the purpose of determining their qualifications for pension purposes. In that way, a man who went, say, to Great Britain during the emergency to work there, and who died before he acquired rights under the British Widows' Pensions Acts, will have his Irish pensions insurance safeguarded. The number of cases involved is not, and is not likely to be, large, but the section removes grave hardship in certain cases.

Part III of the Bill contains only one section, Section 8, which extends the power of the Minister for Finance in the matter of investment of funds held by him for the pensions investment account to include all securities for which the trustees are for the time being authorised by law to invest trust funds.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the Committee Stage to-day.
Section 1 agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

In lines 30 onwards there is a definition of "Reserve Force". In the Bill we have just passed, there is an entirely different definition. I cannot understand the necessity for a different definition in each Bill. Surely the reserve is the same reserve, whether it is being considered in connection with widows and orphans or in connection with national health.

The definition is that given by the Minister for Defence.

But it is different in each Bill. In the one we have just dealt with, it means: "the Reserve Force established under Part III of the Defence Forces Act." In this Bill we find:—

"The expression ‘member of the Reserve Force' means any person who is a member of the Reserve Force, that is to say, the Reserve Force established under Part III of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923 (No. 30 of 1923), and includes any person commissioned as an officer of the Reserve Force and also a man of the Reserve Force who is called out on permanent service under the said Part III."

I understand it is the same definition.

What about the inclusions at the end? Why should there be people included in this Bill who were not included in the other?

I think the reason is that we are dealing in this Bill for certain purposes with men called out on the reserve and not doing so in the other Bill.

This is the definition on which Section 6 is operated. We will come to it then. There is also a difference in the definitions of the wars. We have in this Bill: "Any war which commenced on or after the 3rd September, 1939 and before the operative date". In the other Bill it was: "Any war in which the United Kingdom was or is a belligerent". Why are we more restrictive in one than in the other?

It is the same date.

I know it is. The operative date in this case is the 14th June. Why are we restricted in one Bill to wars in which the United Kingdom took part?

The Parliamentary draftsman felt it was better in connection with the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Bill to have some change in the wording.

Would that not be an added reason for considering the other Bill a bit more carefully?

It might be a different draftsman.

That is clearly the answer.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to explain this to me. Does it mean that the person who has been in the employment of a local authority for a definite period can now come in and insure for the widows' pension only?

Certain employees of Government Departments, local authorities and statutory companies (e.g., railway and insurance companies) receiving not more than £250 per annum are excepted from the provisions of the National Health Insurance Acts but are insurable under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts. Contributions in respect of these employees cease to be payable when the rate of remuneration exceeds £250 per annum. For a period (called the free insurance period) of 18 months after the date on which contributions cease to be payable, these employees remain insured under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts and within that period are entitled, subject to certain conditions, to apply to become voluntary contributors under the National Health Insurance and Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts. If they die within the "free" period, they are insured at death and title to pension is not lost.

Cases arose where employers of excepted persons had continued to pay contributions after the rate of remuneration had exceeded £250 a year and by the time it was discovered that the employee was not in fact insurable, the period of free insurance had elapsed and the person had ceased to be covered by the Acts.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Would the Parliamentary Secretary amplify the different purposes for which consideration to people in the reserve is required under this Bill to which it was not in the other Bill? I would have thought it was exactly the same.

There is another point. I notice in respect of one section the Construction Corps is included but in respect of another section it is not. Why is the difference there?

This section deals with persons who are not insured under the National Health Insurance Acts but only under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts. It is to cover them for the first three months of service. It makes provision for the payment by the Minister for Defence of pensions contributions during the first three months of service in respect of reservists who were, at the date of being called out for permanent service, employed in an excepted employment to which the Principal Act applies, that is, certain employees of Government Departments, local authorities and statutory companies. When these persons join the service this section covers the period of three months in respect of their service.

This covers them for the first three months and then they go back to the other Bill?

Is that not a very much stronger argument for the definition under which they are transferred from one to the other being the same definition?

The persons concerned are not insured under the National Health Insurance Acts.

Then how can they go back to it?

It is for the purpose of widows' and orphans' pensions only.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 7 and 8 and Title agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now to-day.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
Ordered: That the Bill be returned to the Dáil.
The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m.sine die.
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