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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 19 Dec 1947

Vol. 34 No. 21

Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1947—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill has, briefly, three objects, first, to provide financial assistance to persons building for themselves houses within certain standards as to size, secondly, to revive on a large scale the efforts of local authorities to eradicate bad housing conditions and, thirdly, to provide satisfactory houses for workers in town and country.

The housing problem of the middle income group is mainly a product of the recent war, with its aftermath of insufficient materials, shortages of skilled manpower, and abnormally high building costs; these forces have intensified the housing scarcity as it affects workers, but the working-class housing problem is of older origin than the war of 1939 or even than the war of 1914. It is the outcome of generations of neglect, of insufficient replacement of houses which fell into decay through age or misuse, of the almost complete withdrawal of private enterprise and capital from the sphere of workers' letting accommodation, and of a number of other factors less individually decisive perhaps, but whose cumulative weight so aggravated the problem that towards the close of the last century State intervention became imperative.

From 1883 onwards the story has been one of increasing public concern with the question of housing. It may be said to have, so far as the Government are concerned, culminated in the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous) Provisions Act, 1932. The result has been that out of a total of some 600,000 inhabited houses in the country, more than one-third have been built or reconstructed with State assistance. The magnitude of the housing programme undertaken since 1932 as compared with the preceding 35 years may be gauged from the fact that of more than 200,000 State-aided or State-built houses, about 140,000, or 70 per cent., were built or reconstructed since 1932. This great achievement coincided with, and was an integral part of, the first real attack which had ever been made in this country on the slum problem.

The housing drive which was then begun made tremendous strides during the years before the war and had results which were unparalleled in the same sphere in any other country in the world. The recent war, however, brought about a disastrous change. While building was not altogether suspended, the rate of output of houses rapidly diminished until it fell below the wastage rate, or the minimum rate at which new houses must be built or old houses reconstructed if the national stock of dwelling accommodation is not to decrease. The emerging deficiency, accentuated by population movements, family growth and other factors, is estimated to have reached 100,000 dwellings, of which 60,000 represent the needs of rural and urban workers for whom local authorities normally cater, and 40,000 those of other classes.

The immediate objective of the Government's housing policy must, therefore, be to get 100,000 houses built in the shortest time possible. This task, formidable and onerous as it would be even in normal times, is infinitely more so in a period like that which we are passing through, of insufficient building materials, and inadequate supplies of skilled labour. There is a continuing shortage of soft timber; the demand for cement has outrun production; rainwater goods and other materials and equipment are difficult to obtain. An acute bottleneck has developed in the labour force available for house-building, by reason of wholly inadequate numbers of bricklayers, carpenters, plasterers and other skilled tradesmen. These are serious checks to the expansion of the building industry, which can cope at present with only a fraction of the work crying out to be done. Local authorities are finding it hard to get contractors to undertake their housing schemes; in Dublin especially, schemes under contract are being held up by scarcities of materials and labour.

Resumption of the housing drive on a scale which will offer the prospect of a permanent solution of our national housing difficulties must, therefore, depend, in the first place, on the recruitment of greater numbers of skilled tradesmen, on a stronger and more regular flow of essential materials and equipment, and on the concurrent expansion and improvement in the organisation and technique of the building industry.

The present Bill must be considered against that background. It provides an interim measure of aid to meet the immediate needs of certain classes on which the general housing scarcity presses with more than usual severity; the classes I refer to are the intermediate or middle-class everywhere, and newly married persons in large urban centres. The Bill also effects a number of improvements in the administrative machinery for the provision by local authorities of workers' dwellings. I shall deal first with those parts of the Bill which are concerned with private building.

Under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, 1932-1946, grants ranging from £40 to £150 have been payable hitherto to public utility societies and persons building or repairing houses. The Bill proposes to replace this scheme with one more nearly related to present-day conditions, particularly in regard to cost. The new grants will vary from £80 for reconstruction work to £400 for a house built for letting. They will be payable in respect of houses both in rural and urban areas, and will not be confined except in the case of rural reconstruction grants, to particular classes. They will be limited, however, to houses built or repaired in a particular period, within certain limits of size, and built either for owner-occupation or for letting.

The grants are not being offered to persons building immediately and directly for speculative sale. Builders, speculative or otherwise, who build for sale are making adequate profits in the present circumstances and there is no reason why the Exchequer should be called on to subsidise their activities. Grants to builders for sale are made with two main objects in view: one is to stimulate building, the other is to effect a reduction in cost for the ultimate occupier. As to the first, house building, as I have pointed out, is already proceeding to the limits of our resources of materials and manpower and, as to the second, the payment of the grant to the ultimate occupier is a surer method of abating the net cost to him than paying the grant to the builder. By proposing the withdrawal of the grants to builders who build to sell—I would like to make this clear—I do not discount the value of private enterprise as a factor in the solution of the housing problem. Private enterprise, however, takes many forms. Certain forms of it, such as persons or companies building for letting, or public utility societies—which are, in effect, co-operative housing associations—building houses for members, I have thought it best to encourage directly; others, such as the builder of houses for sale, I have decided should make contact with the scheme indirectly, through the purchaser of the house, who has arranged with the builder to have it built, and who occupies it when built.

In response to many requests from Deputies when the Bill was before the Dáil, reconstruction and new house grants at about 70 per cent. of the proposed new rates will be payable in respect of houses begun but not occupied in the period from November, 1945, to November, 1947.

The grants for houses built for owner-occupation will be differentiated on the basis of the presence or absence of piped water supply and sewerage. The higher grant will be payable where the owner has installed his own system of water supply and sanitation as well as where the house is connected with the public water and sewerage system. I think it is important to emphasise that if the owner puts in his own piped water supply and sewerage system he will get the grant at the higher rate because that was not clearly apprehended in the other House when the Bill was being discussed on Second Reading.

Reconstruction grants in the case of small farmers and agricultural labourers are being doubled in amount, and the valuation limit in the case of the former is being raised from £25 to £35. Grants up to £60 may be paid in respect of work begun but not completed between November, 1945, and November, 1947.

The usual rates remission will attach to grant-aided houses, where the grant is made by the Minister alone, that is to say, when there is no contributory grant from the local authority.

Senators will find full details of the new scheme of grants in Part III of the Bill, and in the Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Schedules. The grants are generous, and will mean a considerable addition to the housing commitments of the Exchequer, and to a less extent, to those of local authorities. They are a measure, however, of the Government's awareness of the seriousness of the housing needs of a class which is being pushed to the wall in the scramble for houses which the current dearth of accommodation has produced. I refer, of course, to the "whitecollar" worker, the better-paid artisan, the small farmer, and the middle-income group generally.

The class or classes to which I have referred will also benefit from the extension of operations under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts, to which Part VI of the Bill should open the way. Section 38 will enable me, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to adjust, as conditions may require, the market value of houses for which advances may be made under these Acts. It is my intention, as soon as the Bill becomes law, to raise the limit from £1,000 to £1,750, and I have the assurance of the Minister for Finance that he is prepared to concur in this proposal.

Section 39 will enable operations under these Acts to be resumed in certain areas where they have become suspended through local authorities having exceeded the rating limits set out in the Act of 1899. Section 40 provides that the interest rate at which local authorities may lend under the Acts will be adjusted automatically to the rate at which they may borrow. I should, perhaps, mention that the general interest rate on advances under the Acts was reduced last year from 4¾ per cent. to 3 per cent.

I turn now to those parts of the Bill which affect the powers, duties and responsibilities of local authorities in relation to housing. Part II of the measure contains a number of important provisions dealing with the regulations of tenementing, control of the demolition or diversion to other uses of dwellinghouses, the making of bye-laws respecting certain single-family dwellings, and the procural of certain information from the tenants or prospective tenants of local authority houses. These powers, I believe, will materially strengthen the hands of local authorities in their struggle against bad housing conditions in their areas. They are, in the main, powers of preventive action, designed to forestall or arrest the decline of good houses to slum levels, and to prevent the destruction or misuse of habitable houses. The power to secure information is a power which local authorities will find extremely useful in the operation of systems of differential rents, or in considering the introduction of such systems.

Section 30 of the Bill embodies a principle new to Irish housing legislation. The section will authorise certain major urban authorities to provide dwellings to be reserved for a particular class. What I have in mind in this connection is the erection of special houses for newly-married couples, a class which in recent years has suffered more severely than others from the prevailing shortage of housing accommodation. Though local authorities generally, and especially urban authorities, have undertaken very great commitments with regard to the rehousing of badly-housed workers, I have not hesitated to impose this additional burden upon them on behalf of a class of persons for whom good housing has an importance transcending its immediate utility or convenience. From the point of view of the future of our people, and for other reasons, it is in the highest degree desirable that young couples should begin their married life in a good, healthy environment, and in houses which, so far as mere physical surroundings can achieve it, will foster habits of neatness and cleanliness, and an attitude of responsibility towards the community of which they are both the benefactors and the beneficiaries.

I have in mind that under this provision two types of house will be provided, each to have two bedrooms and the most up-to-date equipment. The rent for one type is to be an economic rent of about 30/- weekly; for the other it is to be about £1 a week, the loss being met by a lump-sum grant from the State. The two categories of houses would be allotted amongst applicants according to their economic circumstances. The tenants of these houses would have to vacate them after a specified period of, say, five years. After long consideration, I have come to the conclusion that it would not be possible to operate the scheme otherwise, since the houses would rapidly become overcrowded if no provision of this kind were made, while, if childless couples or couples with one or two children were allowed to remain, the houses would in the course of time become permanently occupied by such couples and cease altogether to fulfil the purpose for which they were designed.

The tenants going out from these houses, however, are to be given the option of transferring to ordinary local authority houses. It is intended that all these special houses, or reserved houses, to be built should, for the present, be restricted to about 15 per cent. of the annual output of houses in the county boroughs of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford, and the borough of Dún Laoghaire. In the other areas the figures will be fixed according to circumstances.

Sections 29 and 35 of the Bill will enable the Minister for Local Government to frame comprehensive regulations with regard to the letting and management of local authority houses. It is proposed in this connection that regard should be had in making lettings to the character and industry of applicants, as well as to their occupations, family circumstances and existing housing conditions. Moreover, in allotting the tenancies of labourers' cottages, priority must be given under the Bill to farm workers. The Bill, incidentally, provides that agricultural workers on the family holding shall in future be eligible for cottages provided by county councils. Thus, the son working on his father's farm who wishes to get married, or the farmer who leaves the family dwelling to his son, can then be given the tenancy of a cottage, and this provision may help to overcome what is recognised to be one of the major obstacles in the way of early marriages in rural areas.

The Bill also contains a number of miscellaneous provisions, all of which are designed to assist local authorities in the work of getting houses built. Section 23, for instance, will extend the period for which housing subsidy in the form of contributions to annual loan charges may be paid. The period, which was limited to 35 years in 1932, is now being extended to 50 years. This change will enable local authorities to take full advantage of the new terms which, as announced by the Minister for Finance in May, 1946, apply to loans from the Local Loans Fund. These terms, as I think Senators may be aware, comprise an interest rate of 2½ per cent. and a repayment period of 50 years. This section also provides that major or slum clearance subsidy will be payable in respect of the rehousing of persons living in dangerous buildings, or persons displaced by the collapse or destruction of their former dwellings.

Section 41 will enable me to free local authorities wishing to engage in house building by direct labour from the restrictions imposed on them by the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878, in connection with the making of contracts. Sections 42 and 43 provide, in effect, for the division of compulsory purchase Orders under the Labourers Acts into unopposed and opposed parts with a view to cutting down procedural delays. As the law stands, a single objection may hold up the acquisition of a large number of sites for months; in future, the objector will be entitled to oppose a compulsory purchase Order only in so far as it concerns his own property. The Bill also provides for entry on lands in course of acquisition for rural housing purposes; reduction of the rate of interest on compensation money where a local authority enters on land before compensation is paid; remuneration of solicitors for work done under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts; and for a restatement of the borrowing powers of county councils under the Labourers Acts.

The list of repeals contains two which may be of interest: one is the proposed repeal of Section 17 of the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, which involves removal of the existing limits on the rate which may be levied for rural housing purposes. There is no corresponding limit, I may mention, in connection with urban housing. The other repeal is that of sub-section (2) of Section 1 of the Housing (Ireland) Act, 1908, which will put urban housing authorities on a par with rural so far as borrowing from the Local Loans Fund is concerned. At present an urban authority need not repay to the fund any part of the principal of a loan during a period of two years from the date of borrowing.

I would ask the House to give the Bill a quick passage, so that I can get down at once to the work of translating its provisions into action. Senators may, perhaps, be inclined to complain of the fact that the Bill does not include a greater degree of consolidation of the long series of enactments dealing with housing. I may say at once that I sympathise with that view but that it has proved impossible, in the limited time at the disposal of the Government and in the fluctuating circumstances of the day, to have a codifying measure prepared. The transition period through which we are passing is hardly an opportune time for the enactment of a comprehensive statute, that is the statute drawn up to meet current needs which might be very ill-adapted to the requirements of a highly problematical future. It is better, I think, to continue for the time being with ad hoc legislation aiming, at this stage, at flexibility rather than permanence, and striving to fulfil the immediate and urgent needs of a rapidly changing situation rather than endeavour to prepare an ideal housing code in vacuo. There are, I admit with apologies, some traces of legislation by reference in this Bill, but it will be found, I think, that most of its important provisions are new and stand by themselves.

I would again repeat my request and trust the House will see its way to let me have this Bill expeditiously. It is a Bill mainly conferring benefits upon the mass of the people, and the longer it is delayed the more the enjoyment of these benefits will be deferred and the more also will attempts to meet the existing deficiency in housing be impeded. Therefore, while I appreciate very keenly the demand which I am making on the House, I think it would be in the public interest if the House would forego on this occasion its right to consider this measure closely and in great detail, and see its way to allow me to have not only this stage of the Bill but the other stages with the utmost expedition.

In view of the hour at which this stage of the Bill is being taken, I do not propose to take up the time of the House on it beyond saying that this is a Bill of very considerable detail. In general we welcome it. It is essentially what one may call a Committee Bill. Almost all the points on it would arise in Committee. For that reason, I propose to confine myself to one or two general remarks. I think it is rather regrettable that the Bill keeps to the floor space of 1,250 feet which is contained in the Act of 1932. To my mind that is too small for a house with five or more rooms. I think it is a pity, if the Government want to encourage building, that they should encourage the building of the cramped type of house. There is also the point, which I suppose it would be extremely difficult to meet, that, in view of the changes made in the Bill, quite a few houses which are being constructed and which were designed during the period in which there were no grants, if the floor space happens to be two or three feet over 1,250 square feet, will be debarred from any grants. It is a nice point whether, in 1932, that floor space was sufficient, but it seems strange that when dealing with a different type of grant for houses with three, four, five or more rooms, the old maximum limit of 1,250—I think it ran from 500 to 1,250 —should be maintained. Otherwise, in general terms, I approve of the Bill and any points I want to raise I propose to raise on Committee.

I feel that there was a certain note of insincerity or lack of candour in the Minister's appeal for a quick passage for this Bill when he based it on the need for a rapid provision of new houses. It would have been much more in accordance with the facts if he had said that he wants this thing cleared up before the Christmas holidays and before the election. I personally could not agree, although I am only one individual, and a very humble one at that, to any change in procedure which would deprive us of the right to examine this Bill in detail on Committee, because it is there that most of our criticisms are pertinent. The Minister himself has said that there are a number of new provisions in the Bill, and, on that very account, it needs to be closely examined. At this stage, I propose to deal only with certain general aspects.

In the first place, this housing need is so acute that I rather question if the Minister should not do more, in fact, should not do all he can within the material available, to supply houses for the moderate income groups. I doubt if this Bill does all that could be done. We have only to look at what has been happening during the last three or four months when houses, perhaps rather beyond the character contemplated by this legislation, have been built on the outskirts of the city at inordinate profits to the builders. The Minister for Finance said that builders were getting up to 100 per cent. profit and he seemed to be satisfied with that as the working of the profit motive. I am personally very much inclined—I might say, biased—to the profit motive, where the underlying factors apply, but I am afraid that one has to modify one's view about it when conditions of acute scarcity exist. In relation to essential commodities like houses, the profit motive has to stand aside to a very large extent in such circumstances.

Houses are capable of control in a rather more effective way than general commodities, because we start from the point that no house can be built without a licence, and, presumably, no material obtained without a licence. I want to ask how certain people manage to get material which is in such short supply in order to build houses to sell at an enormous profit, when houses are so badly needed by the people we have in mind, the moderate and lower income groups. That has to be answered, because if a local authority had that material—and, presumably, a local authority should have first charge upon it—they should have been able to provide houses for the people most in need of them. People will say that none of these £6,000 houses—that is about the figure I have in mind—should be built at all, but, in Great Britain, they managed to operate a pretty effective rationing system, based on one such house for every eight built by a local authority.

I know that the answer will be: who will get these houses when they are built at, say, a prescribed profit? The Minister, no doubt, will say that he might agree that builders should be satisfied with a reasonable profit —a profit of, say, 25 per cent., which I should have thought would be ample, and ask who will get the house then. I do not think it beyond the power of authority to control the applicants for houses of that character, just as there is a priority list in respect of corporation houses, and certainly anybody who gets a house is not entitled to sell it almost immediately at an enhanced profit. As we all know, a certain amount of that has gone on.

Then, again, I am not satisfied—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, because this is all a very complicated question—if he will have effective control over the smaller class of furnished flats. There is a certain group of people who are living on pensions, the purchasing power of which is very much reduced, who are being very hardly put upon by the increased rents of their flats.

Has that not been dealt with under the Rent Restrictions Acts?

I rather anticipated that I would be told that that did not arise under this Housing Bill, but surely it arises indirectly from the power of the Minister to allow the creation of multiple dwellings. Surely the Minister should be enabled in some way to protect the occupants of such multiple dwellings as are authorised. I do not want to embarrass the Chair by seeking a ruling on this point but there is in the Bill the ratio as between the rent of the furnished flat and the whole rent of the dwelling, so that it is not as if the whole aspect of rent was outside the purview of this measure, although it does come in, perhaps incidentally, in the form of a definition. It is a matter which I am prepared to get to closer grips with on Committee Stage.

Again, what is the future policy of the Minister with regard to the speculative builder? I know he is not going to get a grant, but is he to be allowed to get material—how he does it, I do not know—and to continue to get the ceiling price for his building? I am told that that class of building is reaching saturation point. I hope that is so, but at present it is a very great hardship. The income groups of £800 to £1,000 a year, who are only on salary and who cannot raise capital, or only very small capital, find it hard to borrow within their means to get a house at all under these speculative building schemes. I feel there is an obligation on the Government to help them, just as there is to help those who occupy corporation houses. I gladly agree that this Bill is well-intentioned, but I would like to see more done to deal with this crying need, which affects family life, the health, and generally the moral welfare of the whole community.

We have heard of people who built their own houses at a certain time and are not entitled to any grant. Some of them have a very definite grievance and I am hoping to put in an amendment on the Committee Stage. Speaking generally, housing is largely bound up with decentralisation and attention will have to be given to that, if we are ever to solve the housing problem in this city. The city contains one-sixth of the entire population of the 32 Counties and is getting a bit top-heavy. The cry is still for more houses. At what stage will we be in a position to satisfy the requirements, if the crowding in continues? Anyone who remembers Dublin 30 years ago and who looks now at Crumlin, Drimnagh, Marino and the other great centres of modern building, sees that to-day the housing shortage is just as acute as ever it was. One begins to wonder if the demand will ever be met completely. If we are to go on concentrating every form of industrial activity in and around Dublin, the people must come here and consequently there will be need for more houses. Therefore, the housing question is very largely bound up with decentralisation, if we are not to have an even greater proportion of our population concentrating in Dublin, and consideration will have to be given to that aspect of the matter.

The point raised by Senator Sir John Keane is well known. A builder builds a terrace of houses, a speculator comes and buys them before they are finished and someone else comes in and buys after that, so that sometimes they change hands three times before the tenants come in. People who have money and prefer property to money are able to get them. Until serious attention is given to decentralisation, we can never completely satisfy the demand for housing in and around Dublin. Decentralisation would make rural life more attractive and give greater inducements to the rural areas. More houses should be built in the rural areas, comfortable houses with every type of modern convenience. Also, it should be possible to establish some industries there, in order to give employment. That aspect of the matter will have to be considered seriously in the immediate future. It means a revolution in building in this city, which is now at one end on the borders of Méath and at another end on the borders of Kildare, and is still extending.

In addition, there is not enough attention being given to town planning, which is very important and is closely related to the housing problem. I hope to have an amendment down on the Committee Stage dealing with the grievance which I have mentioned.

As a member of a local authority for 27 years, I must congratulate the Minister on this Bill. Our local authority has been hampered in the past, up to the time this Government came into power. This Government has done a great deal for housing, to give them the credit they deserve. At the same time, in my own county, we are in a very bad position for houses at present. I know that a war has come and gone and that materials have been scarce. I come from a small town of 1,800 population, where we had a very good housing scheme. A number of old people were taken from small houses and put into labourers' cottages. If some of those small houses could have been repaired —and repairs can be done under this Bill—we could have used a large number of those small houses for the people and put large families in the labourers' cottages to relieve the housing shortage. However, we had not got any provision for that in the past.

We have found difficulty in getting sites for labourers' cottages in the country near towns, where there is demesne land. About two months ago we were looking for sites for 53 houses for my town. We got sites for 30 out of the 53. There was a big ranch there and we could not touch that and so we had to go and take land from a man who had four acres or five acres. I think that is most iniquitous and that we should have a law whereby we could go and take land from a big demesne and not deprive a farmer with ten or 15 acres of his livelihood. It has retarded our scheme that we have had to wait and see what we were going to do. We cannot get land adjacent to the town, except by going in on the land of small farmers and I am very much against that. I hope that the Minister will do something to rectify that. I am in entire agreement with the rest of the Bill, and I think that is a long-felt want supplied. I believe it is going to be a big boon for houses in the near future, and with these few words I conclude. I must say that this Bill has my wholehearted support.

Senator Douglas has mentioned a point which has given myself a great deal of concern, the fact that we have retained the limitation upon floor space in the building of houses. I think that there are very strong arguments in favour of extending the existing limitation, but also, I think that on the other side there are overpowering arguments against doing that in the present circumstance. The fact that there are restrictions in the supply of material and the general supply of materials and labour is insufficient to enable the local authorities to go ahead to their utmost capacity to plan is admitted. In those circumstances, we must remember that the larger we make the house, the fewer houses are going to be built out of available supplies. The deficiency and shortage of accommodation are so great, and the number of people who are crying out for accommodation is so large, that I think we should proceed on the basis that we should provide the greatest number of houses we possibly can out of existing supplies of material. That is the case for retaining the existing limitations. Having regard to the hardships inflicted on people who are looking for houses and who cannot get them, I do not think it would be right to allow the more fortunate few who can afford—for that is what it comes down to—to build larger houses to get a grant at the expense of the others who cannot afford to build large houses or who cannot even afford to build small houses or have small houses built for them unless they get the grants. There is no restriction on any person, provided he gets the necessary building licence, to build the largest house he thinks desirable for himself and his family if he is prepared to bear the whole cost of it. What we are concerned with is whether, in subsidising the building of houses, we are to use that subsidy to build the greatest possible number of houses within the limitations imposed by the restricted supply of labour and materials. The housing shortage is so acute that it is necessary to ensure that those materials—as far as the Government subsidy or Government assistance can do it—are used to provide the greatest possible number of houses. That is the argument for retaining the existing restrictions.

I think that Senator Sir John Keane went much too far in ascribing either insincerity or lack of candour to me in asking for a speedy passage of this Bill. I want undoubtedly to have it at the earliest possible date. I would be asking for it at the earliest possible date irrespective of whether there was to be a general election or not. The fact that the Dáil is going to be dissolved within a few weeks and that during that period a great deal of work will naturally have to be deferred— work, for instance, which requires the personal attention of the Minister— makes me doubly anxious that we should get this Bill through and enable the people who are looking anxiously for these grants and looking anxiously to secure the benefit of the other provisions of this measure to get a definite assurance that we are going ahead, that the money will be forthcoming and that the other things will be done. It is natural in these circumstances and having the responsibilities which I have, that I should like to see this Bill law before the Dáil is dissolved. The position is, if there is going to be a prolonged discussion on the Committee Stage of this Bill, if we are going to have many amendments giving rise to acute points of difference or controversy, I fear that the Bill will not go back to the Dáil in time to enable it to be completed before the general election. I hope to avoid that and I think I am justified in asking the Seanad to do what it can to avoid it, because, as I have already indicated, it is not the last Housing Bill. More comprehensive measures are in contemplation and we would be able, in dealing with the succeeding Bills, to cure, perhaps, any of the defects that may exist in this Bill. I do not claim perfection for it and it is not the last word. I am contemplating an even wider, perhaps, and more comprehensive review of the existing housing code and I am contemplating other methods for attempting to deal with the housing problem than those hitherto consecrated by time.

I think that with a great deal of what Senator Foran said naturally we must agree. The problem of housing in Dublin is inseparably linked up with the fact that the population of Dublin has increased and tends to increase. I do not know what measures we are going to be able to take, in addition to those which the Government has already taken, to try to ensure that the flow or tendency of the people to congregate in large urban areas will be discouraged. We have already, as the Senator knows, endeavoured to decentralise industry, but that, on the other hand, has created many problems, as well as the fact that decentralisation has not always made for efficiency, nor has it been without very serious disturbing effects upon the general rural community. It is not a matter that one can deal with briefly, but the Senator, who has great experience and great knowledge of the factors which are involved in the question of industrial development, knows as well as I do how serious those problems can become. I agree that we should find a way of getting the people to stay on the land. If we could get them to live in small towns and provide the people who live on the land or in small towns with all the interests and amenities which are enjoyed here in the City of Dublin our problem would be solved. No other country has been able to solve that problem and I doubt whether, human nature being what it is, we shall be able to solve it either. The problem to which Senator Hayden referred as to the difficulty of getting sites in rural areas in the neighbourhood of towns arises from the prohibition which exists in the existing housing code, that one may not take the main lands or home farm lands for the purpose of housing. I do not propose to deal with a fundamental question like that under this Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
Next stage ordered for next sitting day.

The next sitting day?

Senator Douglas has indicated that he wishes to make some amendment——

I do not propose to make any amendment but I do not see how, unless there is consent, we can put through all the stages of this Bill with any decency.

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