Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 1949

Vol. 37 No. 5

Irish News Agency Bill, 1949—Committee Stage.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ba mhaith liom beagán a rá i dtaobh teidil an Bhille. Seachtain ó shoin, nuair bhí an Bille ós ár gcómhair, mhol mé don Aire machtnamh a dhéanamh ar an scéal seo arís agus féachaint an bhféadfadh sé an nós a bhí ann go dtí seo i gcás cóluchta Stáit, go mbeadh an teideal i nGaeilge i gcás an Bhille seo. Is trua liom nach raibh am agam fanacht le héiseacht leis an Aire ag tabhairt freagra ar na pointí a cuireadh os a chómhair. Bhí mé ag súil i rith na seachtaine go mbeadh an tuarascáil oifigiúil agam go bhfeicfinn cén freagra a bhí ag an Aire ar an bpointe sin go háirithe, chomh maith leis na pointí eile. Ní bhfuaireas an tuarascáil oifigiúil go dtí 1 a chlog, nuair tháinig mé isteach ins an Teach inniu. Níl mé a rá gur ar an Aire atá an milleán faoi sin ach is dóigh liom nach bhfuil sé réasúnach iarraidh orainn teacht chuig an tSeanad agus cur síos a dhéanamh ar Bhille, ar gach céim, gan an deis a bheith againn an díospóireacht a rinneadh ar an mBille roimhe a bheith ós ár gcomhair. Níl fhios agam go cruinn céard tá ráite ag an Aire i dtaobh teidil an Bhille ach, do réir mar is féidir liom a dhéanamh amach, ceapann sé nach ceart dó teideal Gaeilge a chur ar an ngníomhaireacht seo.

Dá mbeadh am agam an tuarascáil a léamh, b'fhéidir go bhfeicfinn argóint éigin ag an Aire a shásódh mé i gcoinne an teideal a bheith i nGaeilge. Sílim go rachaidh sé rite leis, dá fheabhas a mbeadh freagra air, mé a shásamh gurb é an t-aon rud amháin a dhéanamh —teideal Béarla a bheith ag an ngníomhaireacht seo.

Ba mhaith liom iarraidh ar an Aire geallúint a thabhairt dúinn idir seo agus an chéad chéim eile, go gceapfaidh sé leasú amach agus go gcuirfidh sé isteach ins an mBille é, ag cur ainm Gaeilge ar an ngníomhaireacht nua seo.

Nílmid ag iarraidh a lán air ar bhealach agus ar bhealach eile táimid ag iarraidh a lán. Is ceist prionsabail í seo. Is ceist an-mhór í seo, scéal na Gaeilge, agus úsáid a dhéanamh den Ghaeilge ar gach ócáid dár féidir linn úsáid a dhéanamh di.

Ins na blianta atá caite, nuair tháinig Bille ós ár gcomhair go mba é a chuspóir bord nó cólucht nó fonndúiracht a bhunú, cuireadh an t-ainm i nGaeilge air. Ba mhór an trua go mbrisfí ar an nós sin, ní hé amháin ó thaobh a thábhachta i gcúis na Gaeilge ach ón taobh, muna ndeintear é, gur fianaise, gur cruthú, é, gur cuma leis an Rialtas scéal seo na Gaeilge.

Nílmid ag iarraidh ar an Aire go ndéanfadh sé obair an bhoird i nGaeilge. Níl sé sin ar intinn againn agus níl sé ar intinn againn mar a ceapfaí ón méid a dúirt sé in a thaobh—níl sé léite chomh cruinn sin agam agus ba mhaith liom—gurb é atá ar intinn againn go gcraobhscaoilfí an nuacht i nGaeilge ar fud gach régiún. Mar deirim, nílmid á iarraidh sin. Nílmid ach ag iarraidh an t-ainm Gaeilge atá ar bharr an Bhille, sé sin, Gníomhaireacht Nuachta Éireannach, gurb in é a bheas mar theideal ar an gcomhlachas nua seo. Níl bac ar bith ar an gcomhlucht—rud a dhéanfadh cinnte é—leagan gearr nó coimre a dhéanamh ar an teideal. Níl bac ar bith orra é sin a dhéanamh ach beid an teideal Gaelach mar chomhartha gurb í an Ghníomhaireacht Nuachta Éireannach a bheadh i gceist.

Ní dóigh liom, ó thaobh an Bhille féin, go bhfuilmid ag iarraidh a lán ar an Aire, ach ó thaobh prionsabail de, is rud an-tábhachtach ar fad é. Ba mhaith liom go dtabharfadh an tAire an méid sin de shásamh dúinne—atá ag plé leis an nGaeilge—go ndéanfadh sé, mar a rinneadh ins na blianta roimhe, i gcásanna eile dá leithéid seo, a tháinig ós comhair an Oireachtais, an teideal a chur i nGaeilge. Tá súil agam go bhfuil machtnamh déanta ag an Aire agus go mbeidh sé réidh an méid sin a dhéanamh orainn.

Maidir leis an rud eile adúirt mé i dtaobh na dtuarascála oifigiúil, má táimid le dul ar aghaidh ar an nós seo, gan an tuarascál oifigiúil a fháil go dtí go bhfuilmíd ar tí theacht isteach ins an tSeanad, séard a mholfainn duitse, a Chathaoirligh, agus a mholfainn don Seanad: éirí as costas a chaitheamh ar an tuarascáil oifigiúil ar fad. Ní fiú deich triuf í anois. Níl a lán ama agam mar atá ag daoine eile agus caithimíd na tuarascála a léamh chun a fháil amach céard atá i gceist ins an mBille. D'iarr mé ort cheana an scéal seo a scrúdú ach tar éis do dhícheall a dhéanamh, níl feabhas ar an scéal, agus, mar deirim, ní fiú deich triuf an tuarascáil atá againn anois, an tuarascáil a tugadh dúinn agus sinne ag teacht isteach anseo. Má chítear do Chléirigh an tSeanaid am ar bith nach mbeidh an tuarascál oifigiúil réidh in am tráth——

Mícheál Ó hAodha

Ní dóigh liom gur cheart don tSeanadóir an cheist seo a phlé anois. Ní hé seo an t-am dó, mar níl aon bhaint aige leis an mBille. Rud a bhaineann leis an gCoiste um Nós Imeachta agus Príbhléidí é.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Níl mé ag plé an Choiste ach tá mé a rá nach raibh mé i ndon m'aigne a dhéanamh suas i dtaobh an scéil seo de bhrí nach raibh an tuarascál oifigiúil agam, agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil baint idir an rud sin agus an díospóireacht atá ar siúl againn faoi láthair. Sé an rud a bhí mé a rá ná seo: nuair chítear do dhaoine anseo nach féidir an tuarascál oifigiúil a thabhairt dúinn go dtí an lá a thagaimid isteach anseo, ní ceart an chéim seo den Bhille bheith ar bun. Ba cheart go mbeadh seachtain againn leis an tuarascáil a léamh agus leis an cheist ar fad a scrúdú.

Micheál Ó hAodha

Sé cúis nach bhfuil fhios ag an Seanadóir, mar deireann sé, ná nar fhan sé chun éisteacht leis an bhfreagra a thug an tAire air. Tá sé mar nós ag an Seanadóir óráid fhada Ghaeilge a dhéanamh agus gan fanúint le haon fhreagra ón Aire. Sin é an fáth nach bhfuil fhios aige. I dtaobh na tuarascála seo, bhí sé amuigh an tseachtain seo níos mire ná riamh. Táimid ag déanamh ár ndíchill chun í a thabhairt amach go mear agus shocraigh an Coiste um Nós Imeachta agus Príbhléidí seans eile a thabhairt don scéim atá ar bun fé láthair.

Thug an Seanadóir óráid i nGaeilge agus dhein sé roint cáineadh ar an mBille, agus annsin níor fhan sé leis an bhfreagra agus, mar deirim, tá sé mar nós ag an Seanadóir gan fanacht le haon fhreagra. Cad é an chúis gearáin atá aige? Níl aon chúis gearáin aige. Teastaíonn uaidh dul abhaile agus an freagra a tugadh dó a léamh, ach ní féidir é sin a dhéanamh. Níl sé sin cothrom agus níl sé do réir réasúin ná do réir ceílle agus ní déanfar obair an tSeanaid mar sin. Ní foláir don tSeanadóir bheith sásta leis sin. Tá fhios agam gur mhaith an rud é dá dtugtaí na tuarascála seo dúinn níos mire ná mar tugtar faoi láthair. Sé dualgas an tSeanadóra, taréis óráid a dhéanamh ag cáineadh rud éigin i mBille atá á phlé, fanacht chun éisteacht leis an bhfreagra a gheobhaidh sé. Nuair bhí mise san áit úd thall, d'fhan mé i gcónaí chun éisteacht leis an bhfreagra a thug an tAire dom agus ba cheart don tSeanadóir é sin a dhéanamh chomh maith. Muna ndéanann sé é sin, fanadh sé ina thost, mar níl aon chúis gearáin aige.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Bhfuil cead cainte agam?

An Cathaoirleach

Tá.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Is fíor é don tSeanadóir O hAodha go ndéanaim óráideacha anseo agus gur óráideacha fada iad uaireanta.

An Cathaoirleach

Níl sé sin ós ár gcómhair anois.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Níl sé ós ár gcómhair, agus ní mise a chuir ós do chómhair é, ach, ar a laghad ó luadh é agus ós rud é gur mise atá i gceist, sílim gur cheart go mbeadh nóiméad agam leis an scéal a mhíniú. Sé mo cheart é ins an Seanad óráideacha a dhéanamh, is cuma fada nó gearr iad agus bíonn an méid seo le rá agam i gcónaí, pé'r bith óráid a dhéanaim, gur óráid de mo chuid féin í agus nach óráid í a bhíonn déanta dom a thugaim isteach chun a léamh, pé acu fada nó gearr í.

Micheál Ó hAodha

An ndúirt an Seanadóir go dtugaim óráideacha isteach anseo chun iad a léamh?

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ní dhúirt mé a léithéid. Deireann an Seanadóir Ó hAodha gurb é an leigheas atá ar an scéal ar fad go bhfanfainn anseo ag éisteacht leis an Aire. Sílim go n-admhóidh an Seanadóir nach bhfuil aon duine is mó a bhfuil ómós aige do na hAirí ná tá agam agus nach bhfuil duine is dílse ag déanamh freastal ar an Seanad ná mise. Níl mé ar nós daoine eile. Ní chónaím i mBaile Atha Cliath; níl ioncam mór agam gur féidir dom bheith neamhspleách agus tá turas fada abhaile le taisteal agam. Tá dualgais throma ag baint lem obair agus caithfidh mé féachaint le freastal ar an dá thráigh an oiread agus is féidir liom. Cuirim sin ós cómhair an tSeanaid, ní mar leathscéal ach mar mhíniú. Más amhlaidh gurb é an prionsabal, mar chreideann an Seanadóir, go gcaithfimid fanacht anseo agus éisteacht leis an Aire agus freagra a thabhairt air do réir mar chloisimid, ansin deirim nach fiú dúinn an costas a chur orainn féin an tuarascáil seo a chur amach.

An Cathaoirleach

Tá an méid sin ráite ag an Seanadóir cheana.

Liam Ó Buachalla

An chéad phointe eile a luadh an Seanadóir Ó hAodha, cén fáth nár chuir mé leasú isteach ar an mBille. An fáth nár chuir mé leasú isteach ar an mBille, mar adúirt mé, nar thuig mé i gceart ceard dúirt an tAire, nar thuig mé aigne an Aire. Dá mbeadh aigne an Aire ar thuiscint agam bheadh fhios agam céard ba cheart a dhéanamh. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil bac orm má bhíonn mé sásta leasú a chur isteach ar an gcéad chéim eile.

Micheál Ó hAodha

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil bac ort anois.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ar aon chuma, tá fhios agat, a Chathaoirligh, cén fáth nach bhfuil leasú istigh agus cén fáth a rinne mé casaoid i dtaobh foilsiú na Tuarascála.

Mr. MacBride

I do not want in any way to complain of being taken unawares about the point made by Senator Ó Buachalla as he mentioned it on the Second Reading of this Bill. Equally, I dealt with the matter in reply to the various comments that have been made by members of this House including Senator Ó Buachalla. I explained that as far as a news agency is concerned it would be futile and to a certain extent detrimental to use an Irish title inasmuch as the main function of the news agency is to operate in other countries where Irish is certainly not known. I do not think we can undertake the task of trying to teach the populations of the world Irish. Furthermore, we have to face the fact that a very large section of the people we want to reach in other countries are either English-speaking or can speak English, and therefore I think that English will be a useful medium for a large portion of the news. Such countries as the United States, Canada, Australia, India, and South Africa to a certain degree, are in the main, if not English-speaking, certainly familiar with the English language. I think that our news agency, being a small organisation, should not put an additional difficulty in its way to getting itself known throughout the world by having an Irish title. The practice adopted in this Bill is the practice adopted in other Bills which have come before this House. If the Senator will look through the Statute Book he will find that the titles of the Acts are in the English version given in English and in the Irish version given in Irish. Many companies spring to my mind in respect of which the same arguments could be advanced. For instance, Irish Shipping is known as Irish Shipping and I have noticed in the case of ships that they possess that Irish names have not been used, I take it more or less for the same reason, in order that people abroad if they see a ship called "Irish Poplar", "Irish Oak" or "Irish Elm" will be able to identify it as coming from Ireland more readily than if an Irish name were used. I do not propose, therefore, in this Bill to depart from the practice in this respect which has been set up by the last Government.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ba mhaith liom a rá nach bhfuil mé sásta beag ná mór le freagra an Aire. Níl mise chomh díchéillí is go mbeinn ag súil go rachadh an ghníomhaireacht seo amach ag múineadh Gaeilge don domhan fré chéile, ach tá mé ag súil go mbeadh an teideal a baisteadh ar an gcomhlucht stáit seo i nGaeilge. Sin é an méid. Bheadh fhios ag an Aire é féin níos fearr ná mar a bheadh agam-sa —dá mbeadh an tuarascáil agam in am b'fhéidir go mbeadh eolas níos cruinne agam—cad iad na hainmneacha atá baistithe ag tíortha éagsúla ar na gníomhaireachta nuachta atá acu. Níor bhaist rialtas na Fraince ainm Béarla ar an ngníomhaireacht nuachta atá acu; níor bhaist Rialtas na Rúise ainm Béarla ar an ngníomhaireacht atá acu-san; níor bhaist aon tír ainm Béarla, ainm i dteanga choigríche, ar an ngníomhaireacht nuachta a cuirtear ar bun chomh fada agus a chuir na tíortha éagsúla sin a leithéid ar bun. Deireann an tAire, mar chosaint dó féin, nár bhaist Comhlucht Loingeas na hÉireann ainmneacha Gaeilge ar a gcuid long. Is mór is trua liom é sin. Níl mise sásta nár baisteadh ainmneacha Gaeilge ar a gcuid long ach sílim go raibh sé de nós ainmneacha Gaeilge a bhaisteadh ar na comhluchta stáit a cuireadh ar bun. Luaigh mé mar shampla an lá faoi dheireadh Siúcra Teoranta, Aer Lingus agus Bord na Móna. Mura bhfuil an tAire sásta— agus tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sé ath-mhachtnamh air—caithfimid féachaint, ó tharla gur prionsabal é seo, leasú a chur isteach ar an gcéad chéim eile.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Agreed.

Mr. Hearne

Section 1 states——

An Cathaoirleach

I thought that the section was agreed.

Mr. Hearne

The question before the House, I understood, was that Section 1 stand part.

An Cathaoirleach

But the question was, I thought, agreed.

Mr. Hearne

I do not think any such thing. I submit of course to your ruling. I have no desire to be obstreperous. I may take it that Section 1 has been agreed to.

Mr. Hayes

If there is any misunderstanding an opportunity should be given.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair will give Senator Hearne an opportunity.

Mr. Hearne

I have no desire to get facilities from anyone in this House. I will get the point in on Section 2.

SECTION 2.

Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hearne

This section states that the expression "the agency" means the Irish News Agency. Anyone with any experience of international news agencies knows that it will not be known throughout the world as the Irish News Agency, any more than the Press Association is known as the Press Association—it is known as P.A. —and if this section goes through, the Irish News Agency will be known throughout the world as I.N.A. or as INA, just as the United Nations Organisation is known as U.N.O.

Mr. Anthony

What about Reuter?

Mr. Hearne

It is known as Reuter. My objection to the expression here is that, if the Minister had agreed that there was a case where there should be an Irish name, it would be known not by the full title in Irish but by the initials of the three Irish words. It would be known internationally as G.N.E., just as K.L.M. is known internationally as KLM. Another example is one that we all know of—the Russian news agency, T.A.S.S., is known internationally as Tass—in other words, the initials of the four Russian words. We have an opportunity here, and this House would be lacking in its duty to the Irish language if we did not seize the opportunity to make known this news agency by at least the initials of the three Irish words that would form its name. The Minister mentioned Irish Shipping, Limited, as being known by the English name at whatever port our ships might call. That is true: I regret it. There is a far better example in the case of Aer Lingus, Teoranta.

Mr. Baxter

There is no comparison.

Mr. Hearne

It is known in London, not as Aer Lingus, Teoranta, but as A.L.T.; and similarly in Paris and Brussels as A.L.T.—the initials of the three Irish words. That is quite true: I am speaking from my own knowledge, just as I know that the Czech Airlines are known throughout the world not by the long Czech names but as the C.S.R. lines.

The Belgian airlines are known as S.A.B.E.N.A. all over the Continent. There is an opportunity given to us here, one of the few opportunities, apart from any other merits or demerits there may be in the Bill, to make known to the world that this country has a separate culture and a separate language. I do not plead very often with Ministers—I prefer to fight them—but I plead with him in this case, that he has an opportunity of putting before the world internationally the fact that we have a separate language here. This news agency will eventually be known by the initials and, as the Bill stands, it will be known as I.N.A. If the Minister wishes, he can have it known internationally by the initials of the Irish words—G.N.E. I would make a plea to him to consider the matter. It is an opportunity that very seldom arises, but it presents itself now and I would ask him to consider it seriously.

Mr. MacBride

I think Senator Hearne has just put his finger on one of the difficulties. If we use the initials G.N.E., I venture to think that, in most cases, they will never relate that to an Irish news agency, as there is nothing to indicate to a non-Gaelic speaker that the initials have any reference to Ireland. Throughout the world, in other languages, the name of Ireland begins with an "I" and they will look for a name in which the letter "I" is incorporated if they wish to relate the news agency to Ireland. I think that the initials I.N.A. are far more likely to indicate to a foreigner that it is an Irish news agency. I do not agree with Senator Hearne when he says that Aer Lingus is known as A.L.T. or that the Czech Airlines are known as the C.S.R. Lines. I have done a good deal of travelling and never heard Aer Lingus referred to as A.L.T. I have heard it referred to as Aer Line-gus, and I have heard all kinds of translations of Aer Lingus. I never heard the Czech Airlines referred to as anything but the Czech Airlines.

I agree entirely with the desirability of using Irish wherever possible, but I think this is one occasion where the use of Irish would not be helpful and would, to a certain extent, reduce the efficiency of the news agency. It would mean that, on notepaper and so on, we would have the title in Irish. It would mean that, in countries covering a population of anything from 400,000,000 to 700,000,000 of people, you would be utilising a name that would not be understood by them; whereas if you use English it would be understood in the title.

Mr. Hearne

I am not at all satisfied with the Minister's answer. He has not dealt with the two examples that answer effectively his statement that "I" is known internationally to stand for Ireland or that I.N.A. will have a better chance of association with Ireland than G.N.E. The one example that we know for years past, which effectively answers him, is Tass. There is no association, in my mind or in the English-speaking mind, of Tass with Russian, any more than the ordinary person down the country or in any English-speaking country knows that K.L.M. has any association with Holland. People who want to find out get to know that K.L.M. are the initials of the Dutch Airlines. I suggest seriously that I.N.A. will have at least as little effect as G.N.E. I suggest this title in order to emphasise internationally, as far as we can, that we have a separate language. The purpose of the Bill is to put before the world the fact that this is a separate nation and that, secondly, following from that, we have a separate language and a separate culture. As far as we can, we should emphasise that further by using an Irish name for the agency and let it be known eventually by the initials. I submit again that the balance is in favour of using the Irish name and that the Minister should consider the possibility and the advisability of using it.

Mr. M. Hayes

I wonder if we could not be realists in this matter. The saving of the Irish language is not an international question, but a national one. It is for us and not for other people. What we do ourselves about it is all important, not what we say to others about it and not what we call ourselves before other people. I would like to suggest to Senator Hearne, in all earnestness, that it is very important for us to be known as Ireland, that we should cling as much as we possibly can, in other countries, to the two words, Ireland and Irish. Senators will recollect on many occasions hearing me here object to the use of the word Éire.

Mr. Baxter

For very good reasons.

Mr. M. Hayes

I could give extremely good reasons to prove that Éire is a very ancient name indeed and that this island was known as Éire before the English came here, but we have to recollect certain facts and they are good things for us, namely, that more than 400,000,000 people who speak English and millions of others who understand English know this island as Ireland. I would like this State to be known abroad as Ireland and I would like what we do to be known as Irish. For example, the partitionists in the North of Ireland, in Belfast, have not abandoned the word Irish for their linen and, in spite of their politics and in spite of their fanatical desire about certain things, they take very good care not to call it Ulster linen.

Mr. Hearne

Because they are in Ireland all the time.

Mr. M. Hayes

Because the word Irish is more important to them than any other title. Because they are in Ireland, I agree.

Mr. Hearne

Because it has been known for years as Irish linen— a purely commercial reason.

Mr. M. Hayes

Because the use of the word Irish is important. I do not know how many languages we are going to be able to talk in this place. It is because the word Irish is an important word internationally and so is the word Ireland. I think Senator Hearne, in his desire to support Senator Ó Buachalla in this, is not doing himself quite justice. For example, this news agency must get known first before it can get known by its initials. Before it becomes I.N.A. or G.N.E. or any thing else it must first get known and the most valuable name it could possibly have is a name which excites sympathy, for example in England, with great parts of the population, in Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and India. In every one of these places you have a substantial number of people in whom the word Irish in the English language or the word Ireland excites sympathy. We could exploit these people. I hope the word "exploit" is not wrongly used there. We should use these people as best we can and we can use them best by calling this an Irish news agency. Under that title it will have the best chance of becoming known. Whether it is known afterwards as I.N.A. or G.N.E., I do not know. It will have to become known first before the initials become common. I think it is valuable for us to maintain the use of the words Ireland and Irish.

I was at a conference this year. We were known as Ireland. I noticed that certain people in referring to us, in using certain types of argument, used the word Éire but from our point of view—that is, from my point of view and Senator Hearne's point of view—the word Ireland is the important word. I do not think we are doing any harm to the Irish language but we are doing good to the Irish people by exploiting the words Ireland and Irish in our relations with the world outside.

May I repeat what I said at the beginning? The Irish language is not going to be revived by any form of label. It is going to be revived by people knowing it and using it and speaking it. People are familiar with an opinion of mine that, if it were spoken in the bar, and no word of Irish were even spoken in this House or the other, it would be safe for all time and none of us need worry at all about it any more. It would completely remove any worry I have about it. I know sufficient about it to be worried about it but all this business of attaching labels and thinking that we are of great importance internationally is looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

A great many people do not know that Tass is a Russian agency, unfortunately, but, anyhow, there is no comparison between the Russians and the power of the Russians and the power of their language and our power and the power of our language.

Mr. Hearne

This is too dangerous. I do not want to be misunderstood. I merely mentioned the word Tass as being the name of the Russian agency, which is known internationally as such. The power of the Russians or of their language does not come into it at all and I would strongly object to even my friend Senator Hayes implying in any way that, because I made an example taken from Russia, I might be taken as in any way condoning what is happening in Russia.

An Cathaoirleach

There was no implication of that sort in the Senator's speech.

Mr. M. Hayes

This kind of thing always makes me feel that we ought to be able to discuss these things in Irish. I am as innocent as the child unborn. I did not dream for a moment of associating Senator Hearne with Russia. It does not matter what the Russians call their agency. They can call it anything they like, in any language they like, it is going to be known and the name is going to be known and recognised by people who want to recognise it, because of the immense power and importance of Russia. The Americans are the same because of their power and immense importance. We are in an entirely different position and I do suggest seriously that the two words Ireland and Irish are very valuable assets for us outside this country and that we ought to cling to them and exploit them and ought not to give them up.

Mr. Hawkins

In view of what Senator Hayes has said, I would press very hard on the Minister for External Affairs to alter the definition of this Act, that it may be known as the News Agency of Ireland. I quite agree with Senator Hayes that, as there has been in the past, and probably will be in the future, misrepresentation between the Republic of Ireland and the Irish Republic, there will be misrepresentation as between the Irish News Agency and the News Agency of Ireland. We have known such misrepresentation.

We have passed from Section 1 and must come to Section 2 which says the expression, the agency, means the Irish News Agency. In introducing the Bill, the Minister put before the House certain claims, that it was essential that an organisation such as this should be set up in order that the Irish point of view should be made known abroad, that it should be made known to the nations of the world that we are a separate and independent nation, that while we may be an old nation we are a new State; that there have been in the past many misrepresentations of our position and that, in order to combat such misrepresentation, he was about to set up what he termed a news agency to make known to the people of the world that we were, as he stated, an independent nation, that we had a culture and language of our own. It surpasses my understanding when I hear the same Minister oppose a suggestion that the news agency which he proposes to set up for that purpose should have its name in the Irish language. That is something which is beyond me. In reply to the suggestion put forward on Second Reading, the Minister said:—

"Senator Ó Buachalla, Senator Hawkins and Senator Concannon suggested that the name of the news agency should be given in Irish. This is one case in which I would say "No".

I suggest that we have reached a very poor pass in an Irish legislature when a man holding the responsible position of Minister for External Affairs should say that this is one case in which he must say "No".

Mr. Baxter

It is very difficult to deal with an Opposition like this. If one knew exactly what they were after, one could get to grips with the problem, but the impression I get is that they are so much concerned about the name this agency is to go under that they are not in the least concerned about the purposes which the news agency is to serve.

Mr. Hearne

We have not reached those sections yet.

Mr. Baxter

If the Opposition Front Bench had been a little more industrious and had put down an amendment, we would have something concrete to go upon. I do not know exactly what they want to do. Do they want to eliminate the section and what will the Bill look like if they succeed? Listening to Senator Hawkins, I thought I was back at the by-election in Donegal. I was there and so was he. That is the kind of claptrap we have to listen to.

So far as serving the cause of the language is concerned, it is the most utterly futile approach we could make —this introducing of the language to cloud issues and blind ourselves to the facts and to get the whole scene darkened, so far as the outside world is concerned. That is what goes on and that is why we are not making more progress with the language movement. I should like to ask, as a challenge, that both Senator Hearne and Senator Hawkins should translate the Irish title of the Bill. Let us hear them at that and then we will know what the English-speaking world——

Mr. Hawkins

It is already translated. Would the Senator read the Bill?

Mr. Baxter

I have read it. Let us suppose that you have the Irish title as you want it. I should like to hear you translate it, and see the problem which people in other countries will be up against.

Mr. Hawkins

Poor boy!

Mr. Baxter

Senator Hawkins and Senator Hearne are deliberately trying to waste the time of the House.

Mr. Hearne

I protest against that suggestion. Withdraw it.

Mr. Baxter

The Senator may protest with the utmost vehemence, but I am entitled to draw conclusions. We saw the attitude of the Opposition in the other House. They were rather meek and mild the other day. One would have expected that they would have divided on the principle on Second Reading, but they did not do so. We then expected to see amendments, but we saw none. This is another shadowy approach to prevent the Minister doing what his predecessor in office ought to have done long ago. How long will you people continue to stand in the light of Ireland making her case known to the world outside?

Mr. Hawkins

Senator Baxter has brought me to my feet. He accuses the last occupant of the position the Minister now occupies——

An Cathaoirleach

I hope we are not getting away from the section.

Mr. Hearne

Both Senator Baxter and Senator Hayes got away from it. We got a lecture on the Irish language from Senator Hayes.

Mr. M. Hayes

On a point of order, may I ask what Senator Hearne meant by saying that I got away from the question of whether the title should be in Irish or English? I surely did not. I am sorry if I know Irish, but I cannot help it.

An Cathaoirleach

Each of the Senators made his case, but we do not want to get back to the Donegal by-election or to what happened in the Dáil. We want to discuss the section on its merits.

Mr. Hearne

I notice that you did not interrupt Senator Baxter when he drew in the Donegal by-election.

Mr. Hawkins

The purpose of a Committee Stage is to enable members to reject or to amend proposals in a Bill. It is not necessary that very definite amendments should be put down in order that a particular section may be opposed, and, therefore, I take it that we are quite within our rights in expressing our views in relation to Section 2. We had in the past many attempts to deprive the people of the opportunity of exercising their democratic rights in relation to these matters, and, while we here occupy the seats we occupy, we will always insist on our exercising these rights.

Mr. M. Hayes

May I say that I do not agree with Senator Baxter——

Mr. Hawkins

I am glad.

Mr. M. Hayes

——that an attempt is being made by Senator Hawkins to waste the time of the House? If he will allow me, I will give him an example of unconscious humour on the part of the Senator. He said: "Senator Hawkins was in West Donegal and so was I. This is the kind of claptrap we have to listen to."

Mr. Goulding

It is very seldom I waste the time of the House, but I propose to waste a little of it now. Senator Hayes is well aware that the name of Erin is as well known all over Europe as Ireland. In Thomas Moore's songs and poems, which have been circulated all over the world, the name of Erin is always used in referring to this country. Our anxiety in this matter is that the news which will be circulated to the different countries will be in the languages of these countries. The news going to the English-speaking countries, Australia, New Zealand and so on, will, I take it, be in English, while news going to France will be in French, and the news going to other countries will be in the languages of these other countries. What we want to impress on these people to whom these news bulletins will go is that this country is a different country with a language of its own.

Those who have been on the Continent have, perhaps, had the same experience as I have had. I remember arguing with a Swiss about the position of this country in relation to England and he said: "What are you talking about? What are you but English? What language are you speaking? Practically all people from your country whom I meet speak English and I fail to see the difference between your people and English tourists." That is the mentality we want to get rid of amongst people of other countries. We want to let them see that this country has a language of its own and is a different country from England. With regard to Ireland and Irish, both these expressions were imposed on this country from the other side. Before English became the dominant language of this country, it was not of Irish or Ireland that we spoke, and we want to get back to that position, to get our own people to use their own language and to let it be known all over the world that this country is different from the country across the Channel.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Dúirt an Seanadóir Ó hAodha: "The saving of the language is a matter for us." Tá an ceart aige. Is ceist dúinn féin í, obair dár gcuid féin í an teanga a shábháil. Agus is ar an abhar sin atámuid ag iarraidh chomh láidir agus atámuid go ndéanfaimid an méid seo ar son na Gaeilge: go gcuirfimid an t-ainm sin i nGaeilge ar an gcomhlucht seo. Is obair dúinn féin í an Ghaedhilg a shábháil agus ba cheart dúinn an méid is féidir linn a dhéanamh leis an teanga a shábháil. Is beag agus is rí-bheag atáimid a iarraidh ar an Aire agus ar an Seanadóir Ó hAodha i gcúis na Gaeilge nuair a iarraimid orthu glacadh leis na trí focla seo mar theideal ar an bhfhondúireacht nó comhlucht nua. Sílim gurb é an rud atá ag cur as don Aire— go bhfuil faitíos air. Sílim gurb é an rud atá ar aigne ar an Aire, má úsáideann sé na trí focla Gaeilge seo, go gclisfidh ar an ngníomhaireacht. Ceapann an tAire nach mbeadh fhios ag an domhan cé as an nuaíocht má húsáidtear teideal Gaeilge nó má húsáidtear na cinn-litreaca mar theideal ar an ngníomhaireacht. Gach rud dá bhfuil nua ní bhíonn eolas air. Is cinnte nuair a cuireadh an "Press Association" ar bun gur thóg sé tamall ar dhaoine ar fud an domhain fios a bheith acu cad é an rud "Press Association." Bhí fhios ag eagarthóirí iris agus nuachtan taobh istigh de cheithre huaire fichead cad é an "Press Association." Tá amhras orm go raibh fhios ag a lán daoine cad é T.A.S.S., ach foghlaimeoidh siad le himeacht aimsire céard leis a mbaineann an ghníomhaireacht sin. Ach bhí fhios ag scata nó aicme amháin, na daoine a raibh dlú-bhaint acu le páipéirí nuachta, ar an bpointe nó taobh istigh de cheithre huaire fichead é agus sa chaoi cheanann chéanna leis an ngníomhaireacht seo. Má bunaítear í taobh istigh de cheithre huaire fichead beidh fhios ag na páipéirí nuachta go bhfuil gníomhaireacht eile nuachta ann agus cad a chiallaíonn "Irish News Agency" nó Gníomhaireacht Nuachta Éireannach. Ní bheidh fhios ag daoine ar fud an domhain ar an bpointe nó taobh istigh de sheachtain nó taobh istigh de bhliain, b'fhéidir, ach le himeacht aimsire gheobhfaidh siad amach cad a chiallíonn na focla Gaeilge, nó mura bhfuil eolas acu go díreach, tuigfidh siad go mbaineann sé leis an tír seo, le hÉirinn. An gcreideann an tAire gur náisiún ar leith é seo? An gcreideann sé i neamhspleáchas na hÉireann? An gcreideann sé nach mar a chéile sinn agus náisiúin eile? gur náisiún ar leith muid? Má chreideann, ní bheidh sé i bhfad ag socrú in a intinn féin nach aon rud as bealach atáimid a iarraidh agus muid ag iarraidh air géilleadh sa méid sin. Is ceist mhór, prionsabal mór é, d'ainneoin gur beag atáimid a iarraidh, agus dhéanfadh muid feall ar mhuintir na hÉireann, dhéanfadh muid feall ar gach rud dá ndearnadh ar mhaithe le cúis na Gaeilge, le cúis neamhspleáchais na hÉireann, mura gcuirfeadh muid i gcoinne chomh láidir agus is féidir linn ainm na fondúireachta seo atá le dul ós cóir an domhain a bheith i mBéarla. Faitíos atá ar an Aire. Ná bíodh faitíos air. Dúirt daoine i dtosach an chogaidh nach bhféadfadh muid fanacht amach as an gcogadh, go slugfaí sa gcogadh muid, ach d'fhoghlaim an domhan gur stát neamhspleách muid agus bhí meas agus ómós níos mó acu dúinn dá réir sin. Má bhíonn sé de mhisneach agus de fhearúlacht againn ár ndualgas a dhéanamh don Ghaeilge, d'Éirinn agus do chúis na saoirse, ní bheidh aiféala orainn. Iarraim ar an Aire, uair amháin eile, geallúint a thabhairt dúinn go ndéanfaidh sé machtnamh ath-uair agus go gcuirfidh sé leasú isteach ar an gcéad chéim eile den Bhille atá ós ar gcómhar.

Mr. Anthony

I did not intend to speak on this section of the Bill were it not for the fact that some objections have been raised to calling the news agency by an English title. This agency is to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State. To come down to brass tacks, I would like to put a question to the members of the Opposition. I have made an attempt to pass an examination in Irish when I was a young fellow, but how many Senators who, I take it, represent very large sections of the community can understand a speech made by Senator Ó Buachalla? Undoubtedly he is very erudite and I should like to hear at the conclusion of his speech in Irish a translation or summary in English because it would be enlightening to many of us. It delights me to hear Irish spoken, particularly by such a wonderful exponent as Senator Ó Buachalla, but how many members of Dáil Éireann could understand a word of the Irish spoken by Senator Ó Buachalla? We must be sincere in matters of this character and should like an estimate of the members of the Seanad and Dáil who could speak Irish and make themselves understood. As the Minister said, we must correct false impressions that may be given abroad about our activities. Some of our news will go to Germany, Italy, France and other countries, but the Germans speak their own native tongue and so do the Italians, the Russians, etc., and I cannot contradict anything said by Senator Ó Buachalla or Senator Hearne speaking of initials being used in other countries. I am not concerned with our ships or other industrial or maritime undertakings, but I am concerned with the news agency and I feel that the Minister for External Affairs has done a wonderful job in introducing a measure of this kind.

I think we would stultify ourselves if, at this initial stage, when this instrument is being put into active operation, we handicap the measure in any way by accepting the suggestion made by Senator Hearne or others on the opposite side. Let us come down to realities in this matter and face the fact that not one-third of the members of this House or of the other House, or of the representatives of the people, understand Irish.

Miss Pearse

It is utterly beyond the question altogether as to how many in this House or the other House understand or can speak Irish.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair is in agreement with you.

Miss Pearse

The whole thing is to let the other countries know—as many of them do not know—that we have our own language. Naturally, the news that is to be published will be in the language of the country to which it is going—that is common sense—but the title is a different thing. It is a disgrace—and we have already one disgrace at the moment. There are many, but one is very prominent at the moment. It is a disgrace that something could not be done, even in this small way, to let the peoples of the world know that we have our language, a language of great culture with a perfect grammar. I know some Irish, though not very much; but Irish speakers here know what a magnificent language it is. Why not let the other peoples of the world know we have that language, even in that little way? Little things count and anything that could be done to spread that language is valuable.

What Senator Goulding said in his few words was really one of the best little features of this debate. When I consider what is going on at the moment, the stamp which, for the first time since 1921, is going over the world, I presume—not with my pennies, though—with the name in English on it, I think it is a disgrace to whatever Department or Minister had to do with it. I, for one, have not yet bought it, nor will I buy a 2½d. stamp with English on it. I am buying 1d. and ½d. ones instead. Why not do something to let our Irish language go abroad? What is on the stamp, "Poblacht na hÉireann—the Irish Republic", is a disgrace.

Mr. Douglas

It seems to me that we are making a political issue out of what should be pre-eminently a practical one. The enthusiasm of some Senators opposite encourages me, as they believe we are going to have news sent out by this agency for which there will be an immediate demand. I believe it will take a considerable time to build the agency up and that it is common sense to adopt a title for general use which would be most likely to be recognised. When it has been established, a new name could be easily introduced.

Mr. Hearne

No.

Mr. Douglas

That is my personal opinion. I think it is absurd to send out Irish news under an Irish name which people will not understand, when all the news that we get in this country, or almost all of it on which we rely, comes from the Irish Times, the Irish Independent and the Irish Press. Not one of them has an Irish title. In sending out news to ourselves we insist on an English title, so when sending it abroad for the people who cannot understand Irish it should not be suggested that there should be an Irish title, as that would be absurd.

Mr. MacBride

Senator Hearne mentioned K.L.M. as an instance, but it must be borne in mind that they, or any big commercial organisation that advertises a lot, find that its name or initials becomes known. I wish I could hope that the initials of our news agency would become as familiar in the world as the initials of K.L.M.; but, even so, it was an unhappy instance to take, as though they use those letters they invariably have painted on all their air-ships and invariably utilise in their advertisements the English words, "The Flying Dutchman". Apparently, a Dutch company, operating from a country with a language of its own, one of the most widely publicised concerns in the world, finds it necessary in addition to use on air-ships and advertising matter English words to describe itself.

As Senator Ó Buachalla suggested, the issue involved is whether the letters I.N.A. or G.N.E. should be utilised, as that is all that would be published in the reports. I hope that sometimes, when newspapers are utilising our publicity matter, they may say it emanates from the "Irish News Agency", in French, German, English or whatever language they may happen to write it. Apart from that, it will be only the initials; and I think the initials I.N.A. are far more likely to indicate the source of the news to the non-Irish speaker than the initials G.N.E. I can think of many combinations that those letters might denote.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Is it not a matter of practice or familiarity with the title?

Mr. MacBride

We can never hope that it would be as familiar in the Press of the world as a big news agency such as Reuter or U.P., or as notorious as Tass.

Liam Ó Buachalla

If we accept might as right, there may be something in what the Minister says.

Mr. MacBride

Of course, Tass is a very well known news agency, but a very notorious one. I do not think we will ever aspire to or reach the same degree of notoriety. May I mention, in passing, that if Senators saw Tass written in the Russian language they would not recognise it? Tass depart from using their own language when they are distributing abroad.

I am afraid there is a certain degree of unreality in the discussion. I am being criticised in fairly strong terms by some Senators on the basis of doing something that is new. I am following the practice set by my predecessors. I have referred already to Irish Shipping and to the names of our Irish ships. Let me go to a nearer example. Here is the Irish Press. It was quite open to those who founded the Irish Press to use an Irish name.

Mr. Hearne

Surely the Minister is not serious?

Mr. MacBride

I am quite serious. If an Irish name were to be used, it should be used in this country in the first place.

Mr. Hearne

In how many foreign countries is the Irish Press circulating?

Mr. MacBride

Surely we are not trying to teach Irish to the rest of the world? Our first job is to try to spread Irish at home. Therefore, if there is any sincerity in these arguments, the first thing would be to utilise an Irish name for an Irish paper, instead of talking about sending out news under an Irish written title. I cannot take the argument as being very sincere in this matter. I think a lot of the arguments are absolutely sincere but some of them, possibly, are not quite sincere.

Mr. Hawkins

It is very hard to segregate the sincere from the insincere, is it not?

Mr. MacBride

Not a bit. I do not find the slightest difficulty. I could pick them straight away. If the Senator wishes, I will do it.

Mr. M. Hayes

No.

Mr. MacBride

Senator Goulding, whom I exclude immediately from any suspicion even of insincerity in his argument, mentioned the experience he had in Switzerland, that he was talking to somebody there who said: "You speak English, sir. It is extraordinary that you do not speak your own language." Certainly Senator Goulding might have asked his Swiss friend what language did they speak in Switzerland and, if he pursued the matter further, he would have found that the Swiss News Agency uses three different titles.

Mr. Goulding

French, Italian and German. It depends on the canton.

Mr. Hawkins

We would not object to the Irish News Agency doing that.

Mr. MacBride

I think the Irish News Agency can do quite a lot for Irish culture and for the Irish language, incidentally, in its news matter but only by using the language which is the medium used in the country where the news is distributed, not by using a language which is not understood by the people who receive the news.

Mr. Hawkins

Before you put the section, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister is he prepared on Report Stage to introduce an amendment to meet the wishes expressed on this side of the House? Otherwise we will have to divide on this section, I am afraid.

Mr. MacBride

There will be no amendment tabled.

Question put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 15.

Tá

• Anthony, Richard S.
• Baxter, Patrick F.
• Bennett, George C.
• Bigger, Joseph W.
• Burke, Robert M.
• Butler, John.
• Crosbie, James.
• Dockrell, Henry M.
• Douglas, James G.
• Fearon, William R.
• Hayes, Michael.
• Ireland, Denis L.
• McCartan, Patrick.
• McCrea, James J.
• McGee, James T.
• McGuire, Edward A.
• Meighan, John J.
• O'Brien, George.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Farrell, Séamus.
• Orpen, Edward R.R.
• Ruane, Seán T.
• Stanford, William B.
• Summerfield, Frederick M.
• Tunney, James.

Níl

• Clarkin, Andrew S.
• Colgan, Michael.
• Concannon, Helena.
• Fitzsimons, Patrick.
• Goulding, Seán.
• Hawkins, Frederick.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Hearne, Michael.
• Loughman, Frank.
• Lynch, Peter T.
• O Buachalla, Liam.
• O'Dwyer, Martin.
• Nic Phiarais, Maighréad M.
• Quinn, Martin.
• Quirke, William.

Tellers:— Tá: Senators Crosbie and McCrea; Níl: Senators Hearne and Loughman.

Question declared carried.

SECTION 3.

Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hawkins

Would the Minister be able to give the House an indication as to the amount of the estimated expenditure under this Bill? The section says:

"The expenses incurred by the Minister in the administration of this Act shall, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas."

Could the Minister give the House an indication of what the expenditure for a 12-month period might be in connection with this Bill? If the moneys provided by the Oireachtas are not sufficient, in what other manner will the money be made up?

Mr. MacBride

The amount required in any given year will be provided for in the Estimate of the Department of External Affairs. The sum provided in the current year was £25,000, but I should not like to say that that is a fixed and firm figure.

Mr. Hawkins

In accordance with the statement of the Minister now, the Oireachtas will be obliged to provide at least £25,000 per year.

Mr. MacBride

Not obliged—I did not say "obliged".

Mr. Hawkins

Will be called upon to provide at least £25,000 per year. Will the Oireachtas have any control over or check on the activities of this board? Will a Deputy or a Senator be entitled to put down a question or table a motion in relation to any of the activities of the board or its officers?

Mr. MacBride

Certainly, on the Estimate. It is in exactly the same position as any other State-sponsored company.

Mr. Hawkins

I must express entire dissatisfaction with the Minister's reply. the Oireachtas is to be called upon to provide a sum of money and the House is well aware that, in the case of this House, where no Estimates are presented but where an Appropriation Bill is discussed, it would be almost impossible for a member to focus public attention on the board's activities, as distinct from any other activities of the Department.

Mr. Baxter

What is to prevent the Senator putting down a motion?

Mr. Hawkins

If Senator Baxter is to assume the office of Cathaoirleach in this House, he will have first to be elected.

Mr. Baxter

Answer the question.

Mr. Hawkins

Senator Baxter is not going to sidetrack me on this issue. I suggest that the Minister's statement that it is possible for a member of this or the other House to raise the matter on the Estimates does not give members sufficient opportunity to exercise control over the functions of this board or the activities of the officers of the board, which is to be established by moneys provided by the Oireachtas.

Mr. M. Hayes

The provisions in this Bill are similar to those in other Bills of the same kind. This agency will not enjoy the independence, let us say, of the Electricity Supply Board, in so far as that board does enjoy independence. Its expenses will be paid for out of an Estimate, introduced, I take it, under a special heading. It will be subject to the Minister and everything the Minister does in connection with the matter will be done in the course of his duties, will be part of the administration of his Department and will be subject to review in the other House and to the usual extent in this House. There is nothing the Minister could do to put anything more into the Bill, or nothing the Minister could say by way of reply to Senator Hawkins that would make the position any better than it is in the Bill. The maximum of control, in so far as it can be got at all, will be available. If the House labours under any disability with regard to this agency, it is merely a disability under which the House labours generally owing to its lack of power over finance as compared with the other House.

Let me give the Senator an example which I think he will remember during his own period of membership. We had long discussions on the Censorship Board and on the operations of that board, although, in fact, the Censorship Board at the time was not the responsibility of the Minister, and whatever we were able to do with regard to that board, we will be able to do at least that, and, I think, more, with regard to this agency. It will be completely subject to questions in the other House and to motions in this House, and, of course, to questions on the Appropriation Bill or the Central Fund Bill in this House. Consistent with the Constitution and with our normal powers, we will have as much power over this as we have over any part of the Minister's administration. I think that is the point that Senator Hawkins wants answered.

Mr. Hawkins

If my memory serves me aright, Senator Mrs. Concannon made a suggestion to the Minister on Second Reading that scripts issued to foreign countries by this news agency might be made available to Senators and Deputies or might be placed in the Library. The Minister received that suggestion sympathetically and indicated that he was prepared to meet the wishes of the Senator.

Mr. MacBride

I do not think I indicated that. Senator Mrs. Concannon was under the impression that the work of the news agency would consist of issuing bulletins. I pointed out that that was not so, that what would be issued would be news, beamed on different places, and that it might be sub-edited locally to suit the particular needs, and that I would not think it would be possible to lay all the copy in the Library of the House. That, I think, would entail an immense amount of work and would not be necessary, in a sense.

Mr. Hawkins

It is not proposed, therefore, to lay any such script before the members of this House or in the Library. We must face facts as they are, however. This news agency is being set up under the Department of External Affairs. The Minister for External Affairs will be the Minister responsible to this House, and particularly to the other House, for the activities of this organisation, but we cannot banish from our minds the fact that the Minister for External Affairs is also the leader of a political Party and that it is quite possible that there may come forth from this organisation matters that may be questioned by other political Parties in the country.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

How would that arise under Section 6?

Mr. Hawkins

The expenses of the organisation are provided for under this particular section, and if the expenses are not provided I assume that there will be no organisation.

Mr. M. Hayes

Are we to take it as a matter of order that we are discussing everything regarding this news agency on Section 3 and, therefore, cannot discuss it anywhere later?

Mr. Hawkins

No.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The point raised by the Senator would be better discussed on some other section.

Mr. Hawkins

Is there another section?

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an t-abhar chomh casta is a cheapann cuid de na Seanadóirí. Faoi an mír seo, táimid ag cur an airgid ar fáil le haghaidh na gníomhaireachta. Chuir an Seanadóir Ó hAicín an cheist: an féidir leis an Seanad nó leis an Dáil, am ar bith a feicfear do Sheanadóirí nó do Theachtaí é, ceisteanna a chur i dtaobh imeachtaí——

Mícheál Ó hAodha

An óráid é seo, nó an tagairt é don phointe ordú? Cé acu é?

Liam Ó Buachalla

Níl mé ag déanamh óráide ach ag luadh na ceiste ionas gur féidir leis an Aire "sea" nó "Ní hea" a rá.

Mícheál Ó hAodha

Is ar an gCathaoir a chur mise an cheist.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Má táim as ordú inseoidh an Leas-Chathaoirleach dom é.

Mr. M. Hayes

I asked if on Section 3 it was in order to discuss the operations of the news agency and would it also be in order on any of the other sections. Is it proposed to have a Second Reading debate on Section 3?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It would be more advisable if the matter were raised on some other section of this Bill. This section deals with money.

Mr. Hawkins

The expense incurred by the Minister in administering this to such an extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance may be paid. The Minister has intimated that his estimate for the current year will be about £25,000.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is problematical; it may be more or it may be less.

Mr. M. Hayes

I do not want to deprive Senator Hawkins of his opportunity, but if Senator Hawkins gets an opportunity on this section then that is the end of that. He cannot repeat it on the section which sets up the agency. We cannot have it twice in Committee and if Senator Hawkins agrees I do not mind what happens.

Mr. Hawkins

I do not know what is particularly worrying Senator Hayes to-night. The Bill is before us in Committee and it is the duty of every Senator to give his or her views on every section in the Bill and if necessary to put down amendments.

Mr. M. Hayes

Consistent with order.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The discussion on this section should deal with the money that is to be provided.

Mr. Hawkins

The expenses shall be provided by the Minister for Finance with the consent of the Oireachtas. The Minister has given his estimate for the current year as £25,000.

Mr. MacBride

I have said that that is the sum that is being provided for by the Oireachtas for the current year. The sum has already been voted by the Dáil.

Mr. Hawkins

Will the Minister give us any information as to how it is proposed to spend that sum?

Mr. M. Hayes

May I put again the point of order? Are we going to have a Second Reading discussion on this section and on subsequent sections? I put it to you Sir, that Senator Hawkins is entitled to one bite but not two bites, or perhaps seven.

Mr. Baxter

Could we have a ruling on the point of order? Senator Hawkins has already spoken three times on the section.

Mr. Hearne

As a matter of fact, instead of being entitled to one bite, Senator Hawkins is entitled to 18 bites as there are 18 sections.

Mr. M. Hayes

He cannot take as much with each; some are small and some are large.

Mr. Hearne

Some may be small and some large, but he is still entitled to 18 bites.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If the Senator deals with it on this section it cannot be dealt with on a future section.

Mr. Hawkins

I was trying to elicit from the Minister certain information which I thought would be beneficial to the members of this House. £25,000 is being provided. What is that sum provided for? Is it to set up the agency, to pay the staff, for the collection, dissemination and making available of information? Is this organisation going to be a paying organisation or does the Minister assume that it will be a paying proposition at any particular period?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is a question for the Minister, not a speech.

Mr. Baxter

Is that the last question?

Mr. MacBride

I think I dealt with most of these points in introducing this measure on the Second Reading and also at length in the Dáil. The sum required by the news agency will be spent on the provision of staff and offices, communication expenses and so on, all the things that go to the organisation, building up and maintenance of a news agency. I think that ultimately the expenditure will be capable of division into three or four main heads such as wages and salaries and office expenses—it is intended apart from the office in Dublin to have an office in London and New York—and telegraphic and telephone communication which will probably be fairly heavy too. It is very difficult at this stage to assess the exact cost of the news agency when it will be in full operation. On the whole I would hope that its cost will be rather high because that would be an indication that its news is being availed of. It is not proposed to spend money on telegraphing news unless that news is actually used. I do not think there is any other point on which the Senator wishes information.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire. Bhí mé ar tí í a chur air nuair a chuir an Seanadóir Ó hAodha isteach orm. D'fhéadfainn an cheist a chur faoi go leor míreanna ach tá sé chomh maith agam í a chur anois. An féidir, ám ar bith sa Dáil, ceist a chur ar an Aire i dtaobh imeachtaí na gníomhaireachta seo?

An féidir dúinn ins an Seanad rún a chur síos i dtaobh imeachtaí na gníomhaireachta? Is ceist thábhachtach í agus ba mhaith liom go mbeadh freagra agam uirthi. Mhínigh an Seanadóir Ó hAodha dúinn—níor ghá é mhíniú—nuair a thiocfas na Meastacháin ós cómhair na Dála agus nuair a bheas An Bille Leithreasa (Appropriation Bill) ós cómhair an tSeanaid, féadfaimíd ceist a chur síos an uair sin ar an ngníomhaireacht; ach, idir an dá linn, má chítear dúinn go bhfuil ceist thábhachtach ar cheart í luadh i gceachtar den dá Theach, an bhfuil sé iontuigthe gur féidir é dhéanamh, de bhrí go mbeadh airgead dá sholáthar le haghaidh na gníomhaireachta?

Mr. Douglas

I think the position in regard to public discussion is that this company will be in exactly the same position as any other company for which direct and specific Votes are made. However, each House makes its own Standing Orders and can rule out discussion or provide for discussion. It might make the type of suggestion I made in regard to having special committees to consider the work of State companies. I have no doubt that it is a matter for the Standing Orders, where specific money is voted in the annual Budget or the Estimates.

Liam Ó Buachalla

What is the position?

Mr. MacBride

A motion can be put down at any time to call upon the Minister to give an account of what he is doing.

Mrs. Concannon

Will the agency issue a report, like other Government-sponsored companies?

Mr. MacBride

Under Section 16 (4), a copy of every balance sheet furnished to the Minister will be laid by him before each House of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Hearne

This seems to be the only chance I will get to raise this matter, which is important in view of the Minister's statement in reply to Senator Hawkins. Senator Hawkins dealt with Senator Mrs. Concannon's request to have the script made available in the Library. The Minister indicated that he thought that would be impracticable, in view of the large volume of such script that he hoped would be sent out. I fully appreciate his further point that no one could say what will eventually appear in the foreign newspapers, as if they take from the script something worth while printing, it will be sub-edited by them. Although the Minister has questioned my sincerity, I still put it forward that there are political Parties in the country and the Minister who will be responsible for this agency is the leader of one political Party. It is obvious that something may go out to which other Parties may object. We are all old enough to realise that that can happen; whether the objection would be well-founded or not is another matter, but the position is that objection could be taken.

The Minister said that the report will be laid before the House, but Section 16 merely deals with the balance sheet and the profit and loss account. The actual matter is not dealt with. It would be extremely difficult, in fact impossible, for me to put down a motion and stand over it, if I were not aware of all the matter that was going out to foreign news agencies. I admit the practical difficulty on the one side, but on the other side it is desirable that all that goes out should be available to at least some members of the House who would take an interest in it. There is no section in the Bill that would give me an opportunity of seeing what exactly is going out. If I am to be given the answer that there are not many members of the Dáil or Seanad who will take a keen interest in what is going out, I do not think that is a good answer. There are some members of both Houses who would be very anxious about what is sent out in the name of this country. I raise this on Section 3, as I cannot see any other section on which I could do so. It is desirable that this position shall be dealt with.

Mr. MacBride

I appreciate fully the Senator's interest in the matter and that any Minister could abuse his position.

Mr. Hearne

I want to be quite clear. It is not a question of a Minister abusing his position. The staff may be quite all right and the news items going out may be 100 per cent. correct. I am trying to provide for the possible objection, even a wrong objection, on the part of a political Party.

Mr. MacBride

I appreciate the Senator's reasons and I think he has put them very reasonably, but I am afraid I do not see any way of dealing with them. It would be out of the question to undertake to lay before the House or put in the Library a copy of everything sent out. If the Senator has had experience of an ordinary newspaper office he knows how very difficult it is to keep track of copy. It would mean nearly doubling the staffs. Furthermore, I visualised the likelihood that our office in New York or London would prepare copy themselves, from basic material, dealing with a particular angle or a particular thing that has happened.

Ultimately, that copy may come back here; but we want to avoid building up a kind of Civil Service bureaucracy where everything would have to come back and be duplicated and go on files. That would not be workable. I think the Senator or any member of the Oireachtas or the public generally would fairly quickly learn of any reports that were being published that would be adverse and then a motion could be put down at any time calling on the Minister to account for them.

In relation to the annual balance sheet, that is all that is provided for in the Bill. That is the usual provision in the case of all these State-sponsored companies. In addition, the company concerned usually writes a report and, naturally, being anxious to show the good work it is doing, it will give information and put its best foot forward. I would expect that the report of the news agency would give an indication of the results it has been obtaining. In so far as it is of any assistance to the House or to the Senator, I can say that, in so far as I can assure it, there will be no question of any Party politics entering into the working of the news agency. Whatever differences we may have among ourselves here, we should present outside the country a completely united front.

Professor Stanford

There is one other point I wish the Minister to deal with. Would it be possible for members of the Oireachtas to inspect records of the agency if they could show proper cause for doing so? Presumably this agency will keep extensive files and records. Could the Minister undertake, if good reason were shown, that members of the Oireachtas might have the privilege of looking through them?

Mr. MacBride

That is a rather dangerous proposition, Senator. Might I put it this way, that it would be granting the members of the Oireachtas a greater privilege and right than they have in any Government Department? The purpose is to keep away from Government files and the rather cumbersome Civil Service regulations that very often slow up progress. Therefore, I am not inclined to give members of the Oireachtas more rights in relation to a non-Government Department than in relation to a Government Department.

Professor Stanford

This is more like a newspaper office, into which one can go and inspect files freely, but I would not suggest that the financial side or matters of policy should be left before members of the Oireachtas. It is simply a suggestion that information sent out should be available always on files. I do not think that many members would be a great nuisance in that respect. I hope not. I want to make it quite clear that a case might arise where it would be of the greatest value to members of the Oireachtas if they could satisfy themselves on some particular bulletin that was sent out. If they could go to the agency headquarters and ask if they might please check it, it might make for firmer confidence in the news agency.

Mr. Hearne

I fully appreciate that there are two sides to the question but, on balance, the suggestion made by Senator Stanford is one that merits serious consideration. I join issue with the Minister in comparing this with a Government Department. Whatever differences we have in this House, this is going to be the Irish News Agency. It is not a Government agency and not the agency of the Government of the day, but will speak largely on behalf of the people of Ireland, to put the Irish viewpoint across. While I do not think it will happen, it would be most undesirable if this news agency became known internationally as the mouthpiece of the Government of the day rather than the mouthpiece of the Irish people, giving expression to and putting the Irish point of view over. In order that this agency should succeed, it is eminently desirable that there should be no doubt whatever about that, and, so that there could not be, no difficulty should be put in the way of any responsible person inquiring into something that was reported to have been sent out.

There are, I admit, irresponsible people in Dáil Éireann and in Seanad Éireann. But a responsible person would be able to check up on what he had been told and, if necessary, could give it the lie straight away. Supposing in 12 months time I am told that some American visitor here said that he saw such and such a report in an American paper, and that it came from the Irish News Agency, I might say that it was a misprint or that it looked like a statement that was a misprint. I would have grave doubts if a statement of that kind could come from the Irish News Agency. Would it not be desirable, if I had any doubt, that I could go somewhere to check up authoritatively on such a statement, go back to the person who made it and say that it was not a fact, that it never emanated from the Irish News Agency? Knowing the difficulties, I think consideration should be given to the suggestion.

Mr. MacBride

As far as that is concerned I think it would be feasible. I would be only too anxious to clear up any question for any member of the Oireachtas or for any other responsible person in relation to any news item that went out. My difficulty, as Senators will appreciate, is that if members of the Oireachtas went to the news agency to inspect everything sent out, the life of the unfortunate staff would become intolerable and, after a while, I visualise that a staff of two, three or four, if they had to keep records and run the news agency as a Civil Service Department, could be doubled straight away. It would mean that we would have to keep records of everything. I assure the House that I will help any member to clear up any question that wants clearing up. My endeavour is to make this a national issue. I accept that view. That is what I want. It would defeat itself if it played at Party politics.

Mr. Summerfield

I think the suggestion made by Senator Stanford a splendid one. Like other Senators I am very anxious to see this news agency a 100 per cent. success. As Senator Hearne stated, the news going out will concern Ireland and the Irish people and, as a business man, I cannot see that access to messages sent out would mean an increased staff. If members of the Oireachtas could have access to items of news sent out, the mere fact that they have, would be one way of ensuring that this Bill would find acceptance with the people.

Professor Stanford

What we all want is to see a genuine Irish news agency. I think the Minister appreciates that we have that in view. It seems to me that this agency will be watched very carefully, and that, as well as news, even telephone messages might be recorded by recording machines. The Minister might find that, in the end, this would be a very great safeguard, because he could play back the record of the telephone message and say: "These are the facts." That might relieve him of disputation afterwards.

Mr. Douglas

I have a great deal of sympathy with Senator Professor Stanford and with Senator Summerfield, but I cannot help, at the same time, feeling that we must be very careful before we provide something for members of the Oireachtas as a right. I can say, quite openly, that I would not have the slightest objection to Senator Hearne, Senator Stanford or Senator Summerfield seeing the records of my business, but if they had a right to see them, and also the right to say "you must disclose your business", my attitude would be altogether different. I am not suggesting that Senator Hearne takes this view. I am trying to deal with the suggestion of Senator Stanford that members of the Oireachtas should have a right to inspect files. I take it that Senator Hearne is concerned with the need for accuracy and for ensuring that any statements sent out by the agency should be available on request to members of the Oireachtas as a matter of right.

I must say that I have found during the last five years, both under the last Government and this one, that I have always received a courteous and straightforward reply to any query I addressed to a Government Department, and it never occurred to me that it should have been regarded as a right of members of the Oireachtas to have such requests answered. The right to inspect files, however, depends on a number of factors. Inevitably, there will be a number of files, and it would be difficult for Deputies and Senators to go to inspect them without taking up the time of the staff. It may be that the news agency will so develop that there will be many large files, but if you have only got £25,000 and you have offices in Dublin, London and New York and other places, I should say the staff would be small, and I would hesitate to ask for the right to go into their offices and to take up their time.

Surely, between the one extreme of regarding it as a right of members of the Oireachtas to inspect the files and the other extreme that we are to be in the same position as members of the public with no responsibility, it should be possible to work out something whereby members of the Oireachtas, who have responsibility, should not only be able to obtain the facts but should be in the position of being able to send in important information. If a small staff was liable to feel that they might be called upon by any of the 200 members of the Oireachtas, surely the whole thing would be unworkable.

Mr. Hearne

I must presume on the tolerance of the House once again because I regard the Bill as terribly important. It may be that I am dealing with general principles, but the first essential is this: that we are providing money for the establishment of a news agency. The effectiveness of that news agency will depend very largely on how it is regarded at home and abroad. We want to disabuse the minds of the people in so far as it is possible of the idea that this agency will become a mere organ of Government opinion. If the Minister feels that £25,000, or even £50,000, is insufficient to do the job properly, then let him come back to the Oireachtas with a Supplementary Estimate. This is a purely personal view on my part, but I would say that if it cost £150,000 to ensure that the news agency was going to be regarded as it should be regarded in this country and abroad, then, no matter where this money was going to come from, I would support the demand for the extra money.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

I was not present for the whole of the discussion on this section because I was called away, and perhaps what I am going to say has already been said by other Senators. But, probably, it has not. I have experience as a journalist, not only as a working journalist on newspapers, but as a person who tried to run, or helped to run, an agency of the sort envisaged in this Bill and I say from my experience that what Senator Hearne and others are asking for is absolutely impossible to give. It would be impossible for a news agency or a newspaper, however small or unambitious, to carry on in a situation in which every single item of news was subject to inspection by anybody who came in and asked for it.

I know that there are fears that something indiscreet or that something unintentionally undesirable should get out, but if that has happened, it has happened, and will have happened before we check on it; there is nothing a member of this House can do to recall it. It will be the responsibility of the people in charge of the agency to see that no objectionable matter goes out, and I think there is a good safeguard in Section 7 (2) of the Bill, which lays it down:—

"The objects of the agency shall be so stated in the memorandum of association that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State."

I presume that the Irish newspapers can take the Irish news agency service, and if this service is available to them, there will be plenty of chances for us to check up on it.

Mr. Hawkins

I would like to put forward this point of view. We are asked to provide £25,000 for this news agency. I agree that it may not be possible to have every single item examined by the few Senators or Deputies who ever trouble to have an inquiry made, but I would put it to the Minister that surely it is not too much to ask that the national news agency, when sending forward its scripts to the various newspapers, might also post one of the scripts in care of the Librarian of Leinster House where it could be made available to members of the Oireachtas without asking them to go to the trouble to inquire into the records or books of the agency at all. I think that is the very least we should ask—that we should ensure that there would be a script available in the Library. I would make that suggestion for two reasons. First of all, we would like to see what this organisation was doing. We would like to be sure that it was doing the work for which it was set up, and I think that by putting its accomplishments in the Librarian's care those responsible would secure support and sympathy for any activities in which they might like to engage in the future. I would press on the Minister to ensure that one copy of each script should be sent to the Oireachtas Library, and I think that that would meet the wishes of the House.

Mr. Baxter

I think that Senator Séamus O'Farrell put his finger on the difficulties when he very briefly indicated the sort of difficulties it will create for the Minister if this is insisted upon. I think that the House and the country, in a situation like this, are prepared to take a considerable amount for granted. The Minister responsible is either competent, or he is not competent. I do not think we should be unnecessarily suspicious of the bona fides of the Minister in this matter at all. I am sure that the Minister is as concerned as any member of the House that Ireland's case should be presented to the world impartially, and presented in such a way that those at home will have no desire to cavil for any cause whatever. I think you have to give the Minister his opportunity, and that it will be time enough to come to the conclusion that the new service is not serving its purpose, or not serving it in the manner which it is hoped it will, when evidence of it is available.

If foreign newspapers present a case from Ireland in a manner or in a fashion that will not please some people on the opposite side of the House there will be many opportunities for discovering that, and, I am sure, they will be made acquainted with the fact very quickly, and that they will take the opportunity of calling the Minister to account. I do not think that is going to happen at all. I believe myself that in their hearts and minds the Opposition know quite well that no Minister is going to do justice to Ireland, and no one sitting in the Minister's chair is going to do justice to Ireland, if he attempts to present the internal situation in this country as of two warring factions with a different point of view in regard to the affairs of Ireland in relation to the world outside. I do not think we ought to anticipate that that is how the news agency is going to serve Ireland. I think if we can get that right in our minds we would be quite satisfied if, when any occasion arises when someone disagrees with some presentation of some particular news item, it is very easy to check it by communicating with the Minister and asking is this a fact or is it not. There are various other methods of having the matter raised in the House, by motion, or by motion and question in the other House. I personally have no fears about the operation of this news agency.

Mr. Hearne

That is just exactly the point. It cannot be raised by motion in this House.

Mr. MacBride

It can.

Mr. Hearne

If I am not in possession of accurate information, as to what is being disseminated by the news agency, how can I put down a motion in the House saying so and so and so and so? I can put it down in terms like this: "That, in the opinion of Seanad Éireann, the rumour that so and so and so and so has been published should be contradicted by the Minister", or I could move for an expression of opinion, asking for a statement from the Minister. I do not think that it is at all desirable that that motion should be put down. What drew me to my feet is this, that I do not altogether see any proper way of raising the matter by putting down a motion in the House because, unless something further than is intimated here is given to me, I have no proper way of raising it.

Mr. MacBride

May I suggest a way? The Senator could put down a motion for the resignation from the board of a member of the board.

Mr. Hearne

We have had experience here of the Censorship Board. It might be as well for us to put down a motion calling for the resignation of the Censorship Board. In this case, it might be only some small thing you wanted to have elucidated. I was going to make this further suggestion, since I see there are objections, and there is a lot to be said on both sides about giving the right to members of this House and the other House. This House, since I came into it, has worked very well through Committee. Would the Minister consider the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, on which all Parties are represented, that they might have the right of asking for information and getting that information on request made to them by a member of the House? That would obviate the objection that I do not think is too valid, that a member of this House would make such a nuisance of himself that he would hold up the work of the office. There are few members who would do that, but I still think there are some members who are anxious to get information, and they should be entitled to do it, if the Minister would consider the possibility of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges having a right to do this on request from any member of the House.

There would be no question of Party politics coming into the meetings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Everything raised there is dealt with very, very objectively. We can reconcile our differences and, I think, the two viewpoints expressed here, that the provision of all information is desirable, and the viewpoint that the provision of such information would be impracticable, that difficulty might be resolved by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges or some such committee. This is going to be the news agency of the Irish people, and this is where I join issue entirely with Senator Séamus O'Farrell. This is not a private concern and it is not a Government Department concern. To be successful, and it is because I desire to see the thing worth while, I would rather see it not attempted than that it should get a name in this country or outside it of being a Government organ. It would fail from the word "go". Again, speaking with sincerity, there is a very large volume of opinion in this country that will have be satisfied as to the position. I do not want to see this news agency an object of suspicion on the part of the people in this country.

Mr. M. Hayes

One agrees with Senator Hearne that this agency should not be a Party matter. That is agreed, but I think it would be fatal, as Senator Séamus O'Farrell has pointed out, if it were to become a Civil Service office. It cannot be a Civil Service department. The Minister is dealing in this particular Bill with a difficulty which arises not only here but in a great many other ways. You want to do something which normally is not done by the Civil Service and retain some parliamentary control at the same time. You do not want to subject the agency or board to the ordinary Civil Service rules. I agree with Senator Hearne that not only should this news agency be right but, as far as possible, it should appear to be right. Listening to Senator Stanford and Senator Hearne, it seemed to me that there were two different things asked for.

One was for a right, for right of members of the Oireachtas to have general access to files and records. The other was a case Senator Hearne gave which, I must say, made a greater appeal to me. That is the specific inquiry with regard to a particular item of news appearing or alleged to have appeared somewhere or other at the instance of the agency. I think it would be agreed that general access to files and records is not desirable as a matter of right and, in any event, if we take the second case, the specific inquiry, what does it mean. Does it mean that in July, 1952, for example, a member of the Oireachtas may ask to see what was phoned to London or sent to London by wire or what was written to London or New York in June, 1950. Surely that would not be practicable? I take it from Senator O'Farrell's point of view, with experience of the matter, that it would be impossible.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

Impossible.

Mr. M. Hayes

If there is going to be that right you will have to have an elaborate system of filing which, I think, is undesirable, and a lot of space. I think that if it were possible, without any right, or any expression on the part of the Minister to supply a definite check, this agency, like practical people and other Government agencies I know of, would be only too willing to do the best it could. I have had no difficulty in opposition for quite a number of years in ringing up a civil servant and saying to him: "Look I have been told so-and-so. I doubt it, but I do not know anything about it, could you tell me?" He tells you on the phone or he writes to you. We all know that in the ordinary way by private access, either the Minister or civil servants, and the higher you go the better in a way, you always get information. It is suggested that people should have a right to go in and examine files. I think that is one of the things you want to get away from.

The problem we are discussing now applies not only to this agency, but to general matters. A Government takes a certain amount of power and the Opposition does not like that power, but really the fundamental difficulty is, that the Opposition feel that they would like to see the Bill worked by themselves and do not believe it is satisfactorily worked by anybody else. Senator Hearne would not mind if the Minister, instead of being an outsider, were within the fold of the elect, true and faithful. You see, it cannot be helped. The Minister, no doubt, will have a successor some time or other, but I hope it will not be for a long time. His successor will get all these powers, and his successor will not be as bad as I may fear he will be. I make that present to Senator Hearne. The only thing we can do with this particular matter is to see how it works. I do think that the judgment of the agency and what it is like will not depend upon specific cases, but rather upon a general case. You will have to see over a period of 12 or six months how it is working. One thing that I am more concerned with in giving this money than any access to the files of the agency is how the agency is going to get stuff into the papers after it supplies it, which, I think, is the real problem for the Minister and those who will be in the agency.

With regard to the general attitude towards it, as far as I am concerned, I have been outside this country when I was in opposition and I always took the line, and I think everybody in a representative capacity going abroad should take the line, that I was going to put the Irish point of view, not the point of view of my own Party. As a representative of the Government or a representative of the Opposition, I always took that line. I think it is the right line. I think it is the line for the agency.

The truth is that in the powers Governments are now taking there is not any conceivable scheme whereby this House or the other House or the Committee on Procedure and Privileges or a Joint Committee or any body we can set up can keep day-to-day watch on the activities of this kind of Government-controlled board. It simply cannot be done. All you can do is see how it works and criticise it in general at a particular moment.

I think Senator Hearne will find, as we have all found, that there is such a thing as private access. If Senator Stanford was in trouble about a particular thing which he heard had been published, and if it was comparatively recent, I do not think he would have any difficulty in finding out from the agency what they had supplied to a paper. We must not fall into the error of thinking that what is printed is what was supplied.

Mr. Hearne

I made that clear.

Mr. M. Hayes

I know that Senator Hearne understands that well. Every one of us who has gone abroad——

Mr. Douglas

You do not have to go abroad.

Mr. M. Hayes

You do not have to go abroad. You can stay where you are, but particularly when you go abroad you meet a newspaper reporter. I found myself chronicled in Canada recently as saying: "Sure, he is a grand fellow entirely" and "I do not like him at all, at all". Everyone is disappointed when we do not talk like Lady Gregory's characters. You cannot be sure that what is published is what is supplied. If you do want specific information you can get it, I am sure, from this agency, just as at the present moment every responsible member of this House, whatever Party he belongs to, can get a reasonable answer to a reasonable question from practically any civil servant. That is my experience, and the question of rights does not arise at all.

The only thing you can do with this is, once the principle is accepted by the two Houses, let us see how it works and let us all join in the hope that Senator Hearne expressed that it will work well. Senator Séamus O'Farrell has made it quite clear from his own experience that it cannot work and any one who knows anything at all about it knows it will not work if we impose upon this agency the whole elaborate Civil Service system of keeping files lest perhaps at some time in the future some member of the Dáil may put down a question and ask what did the Minister do four, five or six years ago. That is a thing that would choke this infant at its birth. We should let it grow up a bit and see how it behaves.

Mr. Summerfield

I do not wish to have any of my remarks construed in any way as obstructive. I have nothing but good wishes for this Bill. We seem to be getting at cross-purposes. I hope I am not misrepresenting what Senator Stanford meant when I interpret it in this way, that just as you can walk into any reputable newspaper office and look up the files of the newspapers— you do not need the attendance of any of the newspaper staff to do that—so you should be able without any real difficulty or expense to have access, a day or a week after, to the records of what has been sent out from this news agency, which we are all convinced can have such tremendous possibilities for the future of this country. I have no wish to be anything but constructive. If there are practical difficulties in what seems to me to be a simple thing —in spite of what Senator Seamus O'Farrell, with his inner knowledge of journalism, says—is there any practical reason why we cannot see the files, in the sense that newspaper files exist, of what passes through this Irish News Agency?

Mr. Crosbie

I think Senator Summerfield has under-estimated the technical difficulties. It is true that you can walk into any newspaper office and inspect the files of the newspaper, but after a very short time you cannot inspect the reporter's copy of the particular report in which you are interested. There would be the physical difficulty of space and staff in keeping elaborate files of all the news that might emanate from an agency such as this.

I sympathise with Senator Hearne's anxieties, but I think he is overanxious and needlessly worried on this subject. There is provision whereby the activities of this agency can be debated on the Minister's Estimate every year, and I think that is really a more desirable method. Senator Hayes suggested that the activities of the agency should be debated as an overall picture rather than that the agency should ever be judged, especially in its infancy, on isolated instances. In other words, if we were to take Senator Hearne's point of view, he is practically suggesting a censorship by the Oireachtas over the activities of the agency.

I would like to put this point on that question: If the Minister were to agree to that and to the extra staff, expenditure, and so on, and time wasted, it would, in my opinion, have a very deleterious effect upon the journalistic staff of the agency. If they felt that everything they wrote and tried to send abroad would be the subject of day-to-day criticism and censorship by either House of the Oireachtas, they would come to the stage where they would refuse to write anything. It would be like saddling them with an enormous board of directors, all holding divergent views, and I think their work would be seriously interfered with and the whole object of the agency would be imperilled.

Professor Stanford

I think we are genuinely trying to save the Minister trouble on this point. When Senator Hayes says that this is a matter of opposition I should like to exempt myself from that. I do not belong either to the Opposition or to the Government Party.

Mr. M. Hayes

I did not say that, Sir.

Professor Stanford

Very well. Thank you. I must have misunderstood you. I want to put a practical case to the Minister. Suppose, after the setting up of this news agency, he sends out a certain statement. A month later this is printed in an American newspaper in a way that reflects most gravely on the honour of the people of Ireland. Someone who gets hold of it is upset and wants to check the source of this. It may be maliciously distorted; it may be distorted by accident, but it must be proved that it is a distortion or the honour of the Irish News Agency will fall by it. How will the Minister meet a case of that kind? Will he simply say "We could not have sent out anything of that kind"? I submit that that is not quite satisfactory. He must have some record, whether it was telephoned or otherwise, to say "This is what we sent out. We are certain of it." Anything short of that, I submit, would be inadequate.

I am inclined to withdraw my suggestion that we should all have access to the files. It seems to be unworkable, but I do suggest very seriously to the Minister that he may save himself hours of work and anxiety later on by reconsidering his view on this point because a major crisis may arise in the Oireachtas on this very issue.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

I want to correct Senator Hearne in thinking that I suggested that it should be a Civil Service Department. In fact, the last day when we were discussing this Bill I insisted that it should be run by competent journalists employed in the ordinary way and not by civil servants, although there may and will be civil servants connected with it. It will not be a Civil Service Department and you cannot possibly fit it into the groove which has been worn by Civil Service Departments over a long number of years.

Senator Summerfield says that he sees no difficulty whatever in a news agency of this sort producing its files just as a newspaper does. He is as far astray in discussing newspaper offices as I should be in discussing motor car parts with him. I know nothing about motor car parts; he knows nothing about running a newspaper office; and it is quite obvious that he does not. He may go into the offices of the Independent or Cork Examiner or Irish Press and look up the files there, when they are put before him. But let him remember that these papers print by the hundred thousand. He may even take a pin out of the lapel of his coat, as some people do, and cut out a little paragraph which appeals to him. The newspaper can always replace the spoiled copy, but a news agency cannot be run in this way. It will keep a record, I presume, an office record of some sort.

There must be a copy of every message sent out. It would be the key copy, if you like and it would probably be on flimsy paper, but it is not something which will be left on the counter to be thumbed by everybody who cares to go in, and to be abstracted from the file. Without any abstraction, deliberate or not, it has been known that reporters' copy has disappeared from offices, from very well known offices, and it could disappear, if it were put up on the counter of this news agency, too. I believe that everybody wants to see this country's case being brought to the notice of the rest of the world. You cannot expect anybody in any part of the world to regard messages sent out by the Irish News Agency with anything but suspicion, if we are to launch the Bill in the atmosphere of suspicion which surrounds it here to-night.

Mr. Hawkins

The case made by many Senators in relation to the suggestions put forward would be amusing, if it were not so serious. Senator Hayes puts forward a view—and he is supported by some few other Senators —with regard to the difficulty of an agency of this kind keeping files and he spoke of the difficulty of going back in 1952 to a statement issued in 1950. If we are to provide £25,000 to set up an agency which is to be run in such a slipshod manner that it will be impossible for the officers of that agency to present to the responsible authorities a copy of a statement issued by them two years previously, it would be better that we did not set up any such organisation at all. Anybody who has had any association with organisations, whether newspaper organisations or others, must know full well that the keeping of files is a very important part of the work of any such organisation and it is ridiculous to suggest that, if, within a year or two, a question is raised here or elsewhere as to what exactly a statement issued by this agency was, the excuse is to be put forward that it was too difficult to keep files and a copy cannot, therefore, be given. Senator Baxter, with his usual wit, attempted to prove to the House how difficult it would be to give effect to the recommendations made from this side. I suggest to the Minister that it is very simple to meet the demand put forward. All we ask is that a copy of each script be put in the Library and made available to every member. That does not entail going into the office of the organisation and taking up an officer's time, or going into any detail whatever, and, as the representatives of the people who are to provide this sum of £25,000, we are entitled to at least that consideration.

Dr. O'Connell

I was wondering what interest anybody could have in 1952 in what was or was not published in 1950. Surely, nowadays, news of the greatest importance is not even a nine days' wonder and anything that went out in 1950 will be completely forgotten by 1952, and long before it. We know that much copy will go out which will never be published, but if something is published which a Deputy or Senator thinks should not have been published, surely he has an opportunity of raising the matter, and if the Minister, on being questioned, states publicly that that was not what was sent out by the news agency, that statement will get publication in its turn and, in my view, will be sufficient.

I entirely agree with Senator S. O'Farrell as to the effect it would have on the actual journalists, if they were to feel that they were continually open to the possibility of inspection in relation to everything they sent out. I wonder what interest we can have in what has already been sent out. We do not know whether it will be published or not. We may go to the Library and see what was sent out yesterday or the day before, but it may not be published at all, or it may be published in a month's time or whenever it suits the particular journal to publish it. The only thing we can question is what we see published in some newspaper somewhere, or what is brought to our notice, and, if we think it should not have been sent out, surely there is an opportunity of questioning the Minister in the Dáil about it, and of asking if his attention has been drawn to it and whether it was sent out in these terms. If the Minister is able to say "No; it was something different", it will be sufficient contradiction.

Mr. MacBride

My main anxiety is not to bind this news agency more tightly than a Government Department is bound. For instance, at the moment —I am taking concrete examples—I am responsible for three different news bulletins which are issued—one in America, one in Australia and another for the rest of the world. No member of this House has ever claimed the right to come in and inspect these. They have just to rely on my own sense of responsibility, or the sense of responsibility of whoever it is happens to be Minister in charge of the Department. It would be a completely ridiculous position if the news agency were to be subjected to a form of censorship to which I am not subjected in my own Department.

Apart from that, I was horrified by suggestions made here by Senators and I must say I heaved a sigh of relief when Senator S. O'Farrell and Senator Crosbie pointed out the difficulties in the way. I was horrified because I worked on newspapers and in news agencies for a great many years myself and the idea of having to keep a file of everything sent out is just completely impossible to anybody knowing the way in which a newspaper office or news agency is run. Another question occurs to me and I think this is a very real and important consideration. I would ask Senators to look at it objectively. No two Senators in this room, even on the same side of the House, will agree as to the exact tone and wording of a particular item of news. It is an expert job for the journalists who will be producing it and it would be an absolutely impossible position if the work of journalists were to be subject to the censorship and criticism of every member of the Oireachtas. A great many things may not meet with the unanimous approval of the House. I think it would be impossible. I think very few would meet with unanimous approval, irrespective of Party politics.

Let me take a completely non-political example. Suppose a new play is produced in the Abbey or some other theatre, which we consider of importance. Very few people would agree with the type of review sent out. Some person must be responsible and you will destroy, if you like, the genius or the art of a particular journalist if he is going to be subject to all kinds of —I was going to say ignorant criticism —and in some cases it would be ignorant criticism. He is an expert at his job; it is his responsibility to write on one particular subject in accordance with his training and experience, and no one unless another expert is in a position to criticise him.

Likewise in the line of political statements that may be issued from time to time, we may all have different ideas as to the best way of presentation, but it has to be somebody's responsibility in the end to present it. You will never get a whole lot of people to agree exactly on the method of presentation. In the same way each individual Senator realises that he likes to make his own speech; he may have different ideas and use different words to clothe his thoughts. On that score alone I think it would be highly dangerous. I have told the House that there is no desire in any way to utilise the news agency for Party propaganda and I hope it will be possible to obviate that. As far as the keeping of records is concerned, the news agency will do whatever is the usual practice in newspaper and news agency offices, but I do not think it should be asked to do any more than that. It should be given as much freedom as possible, and the Dáil can always make use of its privilege to cut them off with a penny at any time. The results of it will be obtainable through the Press.

The suggestion was made by Senator O'Farrell that all the copy might be supplied to the Dublin newspapers, that they could take the services. That, I hope, would happen. Another idea had also occurred to me; in all likelihood it would be this news agency that would supply to the shortwave broadcasting station the type of news prepared for foreign distribution. I would like to mention, however, that you will never cover the entire news service, for instance, news or articles that would be sent to India would not be suitable for distribution in America, as they would be written from a different angle and you will be doing that sort of thing the whole time. As I indicated before, some of the material may not be prepared in Dublin. It may be prepared somewhere else and used locally.

Mr. Hawkins

Is there any chance that a copy of the news sent to America, India or any other country would be made available to any citizen in this country?

Mr. MacBride

I think it would be very difficult to manage it.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

You must keep everything you send out because you never know what might be asked for.

Mr. MacBride

To take another instance, a valuable scource of news is I think Shannon, where important people from different parts of the world pass through. An important citizen from some town on the west coast passes through. You get an interview and that interview is of no use, perhaps, except to that particular district. It will go straight off from Shannon and I hope we are not going to bring it up here and have copies and files kept.

Mrs. Concannon

I should like to ask the Minister if a person thought himself libelled or that his reputation was injured by anything broadcasted by the news agency, would the action lie against the news agency or against the Minister?

Mr. MacBride

Against the news agency. Once the news agency is set up the Minister has nothing more to do with it. It is a child out on its own.

Mr. Hawkins

I would like to put the position as I see it before the House. This House is providing £25,000 for the establishment of a news agency to send news of Irish interest throughout the world and at the same time we are creating the peculiar position that not one person in the Irish State can procure a copy, either by purchasing it or because of being a member of this or the other House, of that bulletin which is being sent out in the name of the Irish nation.

Mr. MacBride

It is not a bulletin.

Mr. Hawkins

Or a copy of any script.

Section 3 put and agreed to.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7.10 p.m.

SECTION 4.

Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hearne

Sub-section (3) of this section states that no stamp duty shall be payable on any transfer of shares of the agency. The plea has been made here that this agency will not be a Government Department, but will be outside the ordinary ambit of any Government Department. I would like the Minister to say why it should be exempt from the ordinary stamp duties payable on the transfer of shares by members of a limited liability company incorporated under the Companies Acts. On the one side we have the plea that of necessity it must not be a Government Department—and I accept entirely that it is desirable that this should be an independent organisation, free from the restrictions of the Civil Service code—but on the other side I cannot understand why, if we accept that plea, it should be exempt from stamp duty. Many Senators know that the ordinary transfer of shares is subject to 2 per cent. ad valorem duty. To be consistent, that should be the position under this agency.

If it is argued that the amount of the stamp duty might impose a charge on the Exchequer, my answer is that the nominal capital is only £100 and the transfer of even one share at the rate of £2 per cent. would be a negligible charge. It would be better if sub-section (3) were eliminated from the Bill. It would be only a matter of shillings, so no argument can be advanced on financial grounds. If it is regarded as outside the Civil Service, it should not have advantages which are not enjoyed by an ordinary company. The inclusion of sub-section (3) will taint the agency with being a Government-sponsored company absolving itself from obligations that an outside agency would have if incorporated under the Companies Acts.

Further in support of my argument, I may add that Section 6 provides that the ordinary addition which the Companies Acts demand to the name of a company of the word "limited" is eliminated. As far as I can see, that is the sole purpose of Section 6. Beyond elimination of "limited" and exemption from liability to the Stamps Acts, I do not see any other exclusions from the provisions of the Companies Acts. It seems that we are trying to have it both ways. We are trying to have a company that is deemed to be apart from the Civil Service and not a Government-controlled concern, as far as we can, and at the same time we have this provision that payment of stamp duty on the transfer of the shares shall not be made. The amount is only a matter of shillings, but the principle is important. The Minister would be well advised to reconsider Section 4, and particularly sub-section (3).

Mr. Hawkins

I should like to have from the Minister an explanation of what is intended under sub-sections (2) and (3) of Section 4.

Mr. MacBride

The inclusion of these sub-sections has been standard practice in the case of Government measures and the provisions are similar to those in numerous other Acts adopted by the Oireachtas. There is considerable difference between building up a Civil Service machine and creating a corporation which is financed and to a degree controlled by Government, but free from Civil Service red tape. That is what has been done in this Bill, and that is what has been done in other Bills of a similar nature adopted by the Oireachtas. I am afraid I cannot accept objections put forward on no other ground than for obstructive purposes.

Mr. Hearne

I have been for a long time a member of this House. I think I can say that my membership has never been used either in this House or in Committee of this House, for obstructive purposes. If any member, who has been with me since I was elected in 1938 a member of the Seanad can say otherwise I will sit down. I think the Minister's attitude was entirely deplorable in saying that my point was raised for purely obstructionist purposes. It was no such thing. I hold this country as dear as the Minister and even the smiles of my colleague on the County Councils General Council, Senator McGee, will not take one whit from the rôle I propose to play. This Bill, if it is to be successful, must essentially have the support of the Irish people, of whom almost 50 per cent. support Fianna Fáil. I know quite well that this Bill can be steamrolled through this House. Of course it can. There is a loyal majority on the other side, made up of diverse elements, who will object, and object successfully, to any amendment that we may put down.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps the Senator would deal with the section now.

Mr. Hearne

I am answering the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister did not follow up his references. The Minister made a statement in reply. If the Senator comes to the question now I will be obliged.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Do you think it was fair on the part of the Minister to accuse the Senator of being obstructive?

An Cathaoirleach

If some things are said the Chair cannot help it. If we came to the business to be dealt with on the section as it stands it would be much better.

Mr. Hearne

The Chair agrees that it is difficult for me to deal objectively with a point raised from a purely objective point of view when I find the responsible Minister to this House, a person who, no matter what way I may regard his politics, is placed in charge of the Department of External Affairs by the Irish people, questioning my motives. It is very difficult to be objective when one finds one's motives questioned. If the motives of members of this House are to be questioned by a Minister who comes here, then let us know it beforehand, and there will be an answer, a fitting answer, to charges of insincerity and of obstruction. Coming back to the point I raised, the plea has been made, and I accept it, that this Bill, when it becomes an Act, if it is to be entirely beneficial to the Irish people, must have the support, not only of those on the Government Benches, of those of us who represent almost 50 per cent. of the Irish people. I ask the Minister, through the Chair: Would it be desirable, in the interests of the Irish people that we all claim to have at heart, that the functions of the authority to be established by this Bill should be the subject of Party politics across this House or the other House?

Mr. Baxter

What has this to do with it?

Mr. MacBride

If the Minister is asked a question through the Chair——

Mr. Hearne

The Minister has drawn this up by the charge of obstruction against me.

Mr. MacBride

The Senator asked me a question through the Chair. Of course, I want, and the Government want, this Bill to be used for national purposes, irrespective of Party politics. I cannot say that, however, of some of the tactics used by the Opposition in the Dáil and which has shown its head here, unfortunately——

Liam Ó Buachalla

For instance?

Mr. MacBride

For instance, that the House has been sitting since 3 o'clock and has only dealt with three formal sections without addressing itself to the subject.

Liam Ó Buachalla

What has the Chair been doing?

Mr. MacBride

The Chair has quite certainly performed its duties fairly and impartially, by letting the House know that it is within the province of any members here or in the Dáil to talk on the Committee Stage as often and as long as they like.

The question the Senator asked me was whether it was desired to use the news agency for national purposes. My answer is, categorically, yes and I will welcome the assistance of the other side of the House in seeing that that is done. I had thought from the attitude of the Senators who spoke on the Second Stage that I was receiving that assistance——

Mr. Hearne

The Minister has not answered my point at all. I am trying to devote myself to Section 4 (3). The Minister has adverted to my sincerity, and he appeared to suggest that this side of the House was being obstructive in its contributions to the debate.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has already refuted the statement twice.

Mr. Hearne

And I will continue to refute it, on behalf of the people who have elected me and to do my best in their interests. No animadversions of people, however highly placed they may be, will make me take back one word of what I have said.

I will now come back to Section 4 (3). The Minister has not yet thought it worth his while, and I repeat that, to give me an answer to the question I ask: Why should the Irish News Agency be exempt from the ordinary stamp duty payable on the transfer of shares among its members to which similar companies incorporated under the Companies Acts are liable? I repeat that the whole purpose, so far as I can gather from the Minister's opening remarks on the Second Stage— and I have read the Report of the debates in the Dáil too, and I entirely agree with the expressions of opinion made there that it is very desirable— is that this agency should not be regarded as a Government agency or a Civil Service agency or as a branch of the Civil Service.

It is desirable then, as far as it is incorporated under the Companies Acts, that the ordinary law should prevail. Why, then, should we give a handle to people outside this country, and indeed in this country who want to say, and may say, that this is merely a Government organisation because the Government has taken powers under this Act to exempt the agency from the ordinary stamp duty on the transfer of shares among its members? You cannot have it both ways. What reason has been advanced why stamp duty should not be paid? The amount of money involved is negligible. As the Minister is aware, in another capacity, the ordinary duty payable on the transfer of shares is £2 per cent. per share. The ordinary capital of this company is £100. The transfer of one, five or 500 shares of the company would cost the State only £2 per cent. stamp duty.

Is it not very desirable to establish a principle and make it clear to everyone, and to remove doubts in many people's minds, that this is an ordinary company incorporated under the Companies Acts? Is it not better to let the company be liable to the £2 per cent. stamp duty rather than give the handle to people who will say that it is purely a Government concern and that they are taking power to themselves that no ordinary company enjoys?

I think the Minister would be well advised to reconsider sub-section (3) and leave the company liable to the ordinary operations of the Companies Acts under which it purports to be incorporated. I will end on this note— the Minister has impugned the motives of those who have spoken on this side of the House. He gave no reason why stamp duty should not be payable, and I would ask him now to tell us if there is any special reason why stamp duty should not be payable.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

It is obviously the duty of the Minister to answer the question which has been asked by Senator Hearne. I am not an authority on company law, but I do not see any evidence even in the Bill itself that we need justification for exempting this agency from stamp duty. Senator Hearne has pointed out that the capital of the agency is only £100 and that he wants the same regulations to apply on the transfer of shares as if it were an ordinary company. But this is not an ordinary company. Any transfer of shares that would take place could only be done from the Minister to his nominees and back again to the Minister. There are not to be any transactions in the public market—the Minister for Finance will control the whole of the share capital and will issue sufficient shares to qualify people for positions in the company. The shares will never be on the market in the ordinary way, and why should we go through the fiction of charging stamp duty?

This Bill does not propose to set up an ordinary commercial company but once we have accepted the principle of setting up a commercial company with an allotment of a sufficient number of shares to individuals with special qualifications, I do not see any reason why the ordinary procedure should not operate. I do not think there is any question that this company will aim immediately at producing dividends and be responsible to its shareholders, although the shareholders are not in the Bill.

Mr. Hearne

Indeed, they are.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

Section 15 deals with the payment of dividends into the Exchequer but it deals only with £100 capital.

Mr. Hearne

Oh, no.

Mr. Hawkins

I am afraid you cannot be recommended as a member of the board.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

Section 15 provides that every dividend bonus and other money received by the Minister for Finance in respect of shares in the agency held by or in trust for him shall be paid into it, or disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer, in such manner as the said Minister may direct. I remember taking shares in a newspaper once which promised to pay a dividend. I still have the shares, but I have not yet got a dividend.

Mr. Hearne

You may be terribly sorry, but the newspaper is still in existence.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

I suppose I will get my money back.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister, to conclude.

Mr. Hawkins

Before you call on the Minister, Sir, there are one or two points I wish to make. I would like him to make an explanation on Section 4 relating to exemption from stamp duties. He has not given an explanation to the satisfaction of the House——

An Cathaoirleach

I do not feel there is any necessity to labour that point at this stage.

Mr. Hearne

We have not got the explanation.

Mr. Hawkins

It is the right of every member of this House to raise any question of public importance on any Bill before it——

An Cathaoirleach

Subject to the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Hawkins

Of course, Sir, but it is stated in Section 4 of this Bill that Section 12 of the Finance Act, 1895, shall not operate so as to require the agency to deliver to the Revenue Commissioners a copy of this Act or the paying of stamp duty under that section on any copy of this Act. Will the Minister put forward to the House any valid reason why a copy of this Act should not be furnished and why the necessary stamp duty should not be paid to the Revenue Commissioners?

Mr. MacBride

I indicated already, in relation to Section 4, that this is a standard provision included in all Bills setting up State-sponsored companies.

Mr. Hawkins

I do not like to interrupt the Minister, but would the Minister give us the names of the State-sponsored companies similar to that?

Mr. MacBride

Certainly. I think the National Stud Act is one such example, off hand. I think Senators will find that in all these State companies there are similar provisions.

Liam Ó Buachalla

It would not be similar to this Bill.

Mr. MacBride

There are similar provisions, I said. The National Stud Act, Section 5 is the same. The argument that Senator Hearne advanced was on the basis, that by relieving this company from paying stamp duty we were, in fact, doing something which was unusual, or something that would indicate that this company was State sponsored. This company is State sponsored.

Mr. Hearne

I accept the latter part. I do not accept the "something unusual".

Mr. MacBride

A State-sponsored company is obviously sponsored by the State. It has not grown like a mushroom by itself.

Mr. Hawkins

The Minister is as aware as I am that——

Mr. MacBride

I think the Senator might let me reply.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. MacBride

Inasmuch as this is a State company, it has embodied in it the provisions that are normal for State-sponsored companies.

Mr. Hawkins

That is my entire objection.

Mr. Baxter

On a point of order, may I point out that this is the fourth occasion on which Senator Hearne has made a speech.

Mr. Hawkins

And within his rights.

Mr. Baxter

I say he is not in order.

Mr. Hearne

I submit that under the rules of this House, which are binding on all members of the House, including the Minister, who may speak in the House, that the rules of the House allow me to speak as often as I like on a section of the Bill.

An Cathaoirleach

But, not a repetition of the same speech. The ordinary procedure does not.

Mr. Hearne

As long as I do not repeat myself, and if I am not satisfied, or if I feel I have not been explicit enough, or the Minister, in reply to my point, has not been explicit enough, I am entitled to get up again. I think it would be deplorable if this House is going to closure, as they can by a majority vote, the right of a Senator to speak as often as he feels he is entitled to speak, within the rules of of order. My point was this, Sir, and at the risk of being repetitious, I will repeat it, that Section 4, sub-section (3), gives a handle to people outside this House who want to say, whether they are right or whether they are wrong, that this Bill, when it becomes law, will be used for the building up of a certain political Party and certain political personages. I deplore that approach. The Minister's asides are heard on this side of the House as well.

Mr. MacBride

The question I did ask——

Mr. Hearne

Where they are contemptuous they will be treated with contempt from this side of the House, but when they go too far there are provisions under the rules of order of this House that this House can adjourn if a member of this House is treated with contempt.

Mr. M. Hayes

May I say this: Nobody would be more against a member of this House being treated with contempt than I would be?

Mr. Hearne

The Minister has done it from the time he came in.

Mr. M. Hayes

May I assure the Senator, that it is not within the power of a majority of this House to deprive him of his rights? It is not within the power of a majority of this House to deprive Senator Hearne of his rights, particularly, at a quarter to eight. It would require very elaborate preparations which nobody has made, which nobody intends to make, and which nobody contemplates. It was never done. It is not proposed to do it now. The Senator can exercise his rights. There is nobody in any plot to prevent him from so doing. I should like to make that clear.

Mr. Hearne

On the point raised by Senator Hayes, if Senator Hayes can convince the Minister that objections made by this side of the House are objective for the purpose of bettering the Bill, and induces the Minister not to make allegations against the probity of members of this side of the House, then, we will get on much quicker.

Mr. M. Hayes

One of the most honoured names in Irish history is Charles Stewart Parnell. He was a great obstructionist. It is not a reflection on the Senator's probity to say he is an obstructionist. It may, in fact, be a term of admiration if he does it right.

Mr. Hearne

I resent that very much.

An Cathaoirleach

Sit down, please.

Mr. Hearne

The rules of this House provide——

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Senator sit down?

Mr. Hearne

Unless the Chairman stands I am not going to sit. Very well, Sir, I abide by the rules of the House, and the Chairman in speaking to the House must stand.

An Cathaoirleach

We want to go back to Section 4. It has been repeated over and over, the case made for and the case made against, and if we are satisfied, and if there are no further words to be added to what has been said, I will put the section.

Mr. Hawkins

I still insist that the Minister should give us a more explicit explanation.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair cannot force anybody to make a statement if he does not want to.

Mr. Hearne

Then, those of us on this side of the House must take it, that the Minister refuses to reply to the question put to him as to why stamp duty in this case should not be paid.

An Cathaoirleach

I must ask the Senator again. That has been repeated so often.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Has not the Minister spoken twice?

An Cathaoirleach

I am putting the question: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Question put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 24; Níl, 14.

Tá

• Anthony, Richard S.
• Baxter, Patrick F.
• Bennett, George C.
• Bigger, Joseph W.
• Burke, Denis.
• Burke, Robert M.
• Butler, John
• Counihan, John J.
• Crosbie, James.
• Dockrell, Henry M.
• Hayes, Michael.
• Ireland, Denis L.
• McCartan, Patrick.
• McCrea, James J.
• McGee, James T.
• McGuire, Edward A.
• Meighan, John J.
• O'Brien, George.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Farrell, Séamus.
• Orpen, Edward R.R.
• Ruane, Seán T.
• Stanford, William B.
• Tunney, James.

Níl

• Clarkin, Andrew S.
• Concannon, Helena,
• Fitzsimons, Patrick.
• Gibbons, Seán.
• Goulding, Seán.
• Hawkins, Frederick.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Hearne, Michael.
• Loughman, Frank.
• Lynch, Peter T.
• O Buachalla, Liam.
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• Nic Phiarais, Maighréad M.
• Quirke, William.

Tellers:—Tá: Senators Crosbie and McCrea; Níl: Senators Clarkin and Loughman.

Question declared carried.

SECTION 5.

Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hawkins

On this section I wonder would the Minister indicate to the House the type of persons whom he proposes to appoint to this agency, their qualifications, and so on.

Mr. MacBride

With respect to the Senator, I do not think that arises on this section. The section is merely one enabling the Minister for External Affairs, after consultation with the Minister for Finance, to take the necessary steps to procure the formation of a limited company.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Question proposed: "That Section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Mrs. Concannon

Before the Minister asks us to pass this section, I would like to put an almost personal plea to him to consider the suggestion that the name of the agency should be in Irish. I appeal to him as the Minister was largely responsible for the passing of the Poblacht na hEireann Act. It is deplorable that the first Bill of this nature dealing with a State sponsored company should have merely an English name. I followed carefully the arguments the Minister advanced as to the number of people speaking English and the number of people speaking French. I would not object to giving it a French name but I think it is deplorable that it should go without an Irish name at a time when we are trying to convey to the outside world that we are a separate nation from England, that we have our own language. I do not want to repeat the arguments, but they are very cogent, especially in connection with a Bill of this nature, which is really designed to tell the outside world who we are, what we are and what we are aiming at. In these circumstances, it is a great pity that the company should have only an English name and I would like the Minister, if he possibly can, to change his mind about it. There is an idea that all the feeling for the Irish language has died away, but anybody who thinks that is making a sad mistake. There is a fighting spirit still left amongst people who are interested in the Irish language, and, if we do commit this solecism—I use a mild word—of establishing the agency with only an English name, we will be doing a bad day's work.

Like all those who have spoken, I should like to see this Bill a tremendous success. My only fear is that the Minister's ambitions are too small— you cannot do an awful lot with £25,000. I want to see it a great success, but I would like to ensure that it will not be vitiated at the source. I should like the Minister to consider giving it an Irish name.

An Cathaoirleach

I think this question of the name was debated at length on Section 2. I allowed Senator Mrs. Concannon to speak now, because she did not intervene in the debate on that section. The Chair cannot prevent any Senator from speaking again on it, but I think it has been debated at such length already that perhaps Senators would agree with the Chair that there is no necessity to speak further on it.

Mr. M. Hayes

There is the further point that sub-section (1) of Section 6 provides that the agency shall be called the Irish News Agency, leaving out the word "Limited". It merely provides that whatever the name is it shall not contain the word "Limited".

Mrs. Concannon

I thought, when we were debating the statement that: "This Act may be cited as the Irish News Agency Act", it really referred only to the Title of the Bill and that the name of the agency did not arise for discussion until now. I am subject to correction by the Chair in saying that, but that was my reason for reserving my speech until now.

An Cathaoirleach

Section 2 deals with the agency and with the agency alone, and on that section we had a long debate.

Mr. Gibbons

I was unavoidably absent when the Seanad was discussing Section 2. I wish to associate myself very strongly and wholeheartedly with Mrs. Concannon and her remarks concerning the title of this news agency, and I plead with the Minister to consider even now giving it an Irish title.

Mr. Baxter

The Leas-Chathaoirleach ruled this matter would be discussed on Section 2. That was the ruling given.

Mr. Hawkins

Not at all—he could not do that.

Mr. Baxter

It was so ruled by the Leas-Chathaoirleach, and I suggest that this discussion is therefore out of order.

An Cathaoirleach

I was in the Chair when Section 2 was being debated.

Mr. Hearne

I submit that the section on which the other side of the House depend, Section 2, merely says: "The ‘agency' means the Irish News Agency." That is all it says. There is no name given to it there. Here in Section 6, we are told that the name of the agency shall be the Irish News Agency, which, I think, disposes of the objection that the matter has already been discussed. I quite agree that this provision seems to provide for the elimination of the word "Limited". Otherwise, under the Companies Acts, the word "Limited" would have to be added to the words "Irish News Agency". My plea may be regarded as obstructionist by the Minister, and it may not be received at all—probably I am worsening Mrs. Concannon's case by speaking at all— but I can only add my small voice to hers in suggesting that here, now, we are given a chance of altering the name of the agency. This is the first time in the Bill it is set out that the agency is to be called—shall be called—the Irish News Agency and the Minister is given a second opportunity of deciding whether it would be advisable even at this stage to change the name. I fully appreciate that, from the legal point of view, it means the elimination of the word "Limited", which would, of necessity, have to be added. May I submit, purely on a point of order, that Section 2 merely states: "The expression ‘the agency' means the Irish News Agency"? It merely defines what will be known as the agency, but here in Section 6 we are given for the first time the title of the agency, when it states that the name of the agency shall be the Irish News Agency. If the first line were eliminated, of necessity, the name of the agency would have to be the Irish News Agency, Limited.

Mr. M. Hayes

The rules for Committee procedure give a member of the House the right to speak as often as he pleases, the idea being that there will be a certain amount of give and take and brief discussion, but it frequently happens in Committee that it is not clear whether a particular point arises on Section 7 or Section 11 and it is in the discretion of the Chair and within the commonsense of the House to have the discussion on either of the sections, but obviously it is contrary to commonsense that the discussion should be taken on both. Whatever the wording of Section 2 may be and whatever one may understand from sub-section (1) of Section 6, the truth is, as we all know, that this afternoon we had quite a long discussion in English, and indeed in Irish, on the question whether this news agency should have an English or an Irish name. From the point of view of order and from the point of view of commonsense among ourselves, I submit that we have already discussed the matter and decided it on a division. That is what the division meant. I know that formal objection can be made as to what the division meant, but, in effect, it meant a particular thing, and I suggest that, having done that once in Committee, it would be a travesty of our rules and a mistake from our own point of view here to do it again.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair tried to explain the position after Senator Mrs. Concannon had spoken on the particular point. The Chair is not in a position to curb any Senator in the matter of speaking again, except where it is repetition, and the Chair did appeal to Senators who had spoken on Section 2 to agree that it might be the commonsense way of doing things to abstain from speaking on this sub-section. it again.

Mr. Hawkins

We do not wish to prolong the proceedings in any way, and if at this late stage we could get an assurance from the Minister that he would introduce on the Report Stage an amendment to meet the wishes of this side of the House we would be prepared to proceed to the other sections of the Bill. As there has been a misunderstanding as to what Section 2 and Section 6 of the Bill meant, I am afraid that if we do not get that assurance we will have to decide the issue in the only way it can be decided in this House, by a vote.

Mr. Hayes

Very simple.

Question put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 24; Níl, 13.

Tá

• Anthony, Richard S.
• Baxter, Patrick F.
• Bennett, George C.
• Bigger, Joseph W.
• Burke, Denis.
• Burke, Robert M.
• Butler, John.
• Counihan, John J.
• Crosbie, James.
• Dockrell, Henry M.
• Hayes, Michael.
• Ireland, Denis L.
• McCartan, Patrick.
• McCrea, James J.
• McGee, James T.
• McGuire, Edward A.
• Meighan, John J.
• O'Brien, George
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Farrell, Séamus.
• Orpen, Edward R.R.
• Ruane, Seán T.
• Stanford, William B.
• Tunney, James.

Níl

• Clarkin, Andrew S.
• Concannon, Helena.
• Fitzsimons, Patrick.
• Gibbons, Seán.
• Goulding, Seán.
• Hawkins, Frederick.
• Hearne, Michael.
• Loughman, Frank.
• Lynch, Peter T.
• O Buachalla, Liam.
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• Nic Phiarais, Maighréad M.
• Quirke, William.

Tellers:—Tá: Senators Crosbie and McCrea; Níl: Senators Clarkin and Loughman.

Question declared carried.

SECTION 7.

Question proposed: "That Section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hawkins

On the Second Reading, I raised a number of points and I have not seen that the Minister replied to the questions. The first question was whether it was proposed to make this a paying agency or whether it will exist entirely on moneys provided by the Oireachtas. He said in the Dáil that he visualised that at some time the agency would be in a position to sell news and make a profit. If it is proposed that it should go into the market as a commercial news agency and sell news as against the existing commercial agencies, what will be the position? What foreign organs are going to accept the news provided on a commercial basis by the Irish News Agency as against the news provided by the existing commercial agencies in this and in other countries? If it is not proposed that it should become a paying proposition, we will have to question, at a later stage of the Bill, some of the other provisions. I would like the Minister to give us a clean statement on this matter—and, I hope, a more definite statement than he gave on the Second Reading.

Mr. MacBride

The only alternative to not entering into competition with other news agencies would be to leave ourselves, as we have been hitherto, completely in the hands of foreign news agencies for the dissemination of our news. The agency will put forward to the world Irish news from an Irish angle. To the extent to which it will be contradicting a wrong perspective or giving a proper perspective on news from Ireland, it will be competing with other news agencies—and I make no apology for doing that.

As to its financial future, I have indicated here and in the Dáil that I did not rule out the possibility that it would become a sound financial proposition, but I am not proposing it to the House on that basis. In so far as it can sell its services, it will do so. The extent to which it can become a financial proposition will depend largely on the extent to which it is able to sell its news service throughout the world.

Mr. Hawkins

On the Second Reading the Minister made it quite clear— and he agreed with me when I put it before the House—that the important question in putting the Irish point of view across was not so much the collecting of the news as—he himself used the term—"putting the Irish news on the desk of the news editor of every foreign paper". We accept that that is the purpose of this organisation. At what period of the activities of this organisation is the Minister going to decide—since a decision must be made at some point—that we have succeeded in placing on the desks of the many editors of the many papers sufficient Irish news, and that they are sufficiently interested in giving publication to that news, that the time has arrived now when we might reverse our outlook and charge them for news which formerly we were prepared to give them free, gratis and for nothing and which we were very grateful that they would give space to in their papers?

It would be more honest if the Minister would come before the House, and before the people of the country who must face the payment of this bill, and say that at no time in the history of this organisation which we are setting up here to-night will it be possible to make it a paying proposition. The more that this organisation of ours succeeds in its task, the more important will it be for us to feed the organisation and feed the papers that are prepared to give us space. It would, indeed, be a very wrong approach on the part of those charged with the responsibility of directing this organisation at a particular stage to decide that we have got so far in having free information about this country of ours spread through the nations of the world, that we are now going to charge those people for doing that particular job. Therefore, at no stage in the development of this organisation will it be possible for this organisation to pay.

A sum of £25,000 has been estimated for the first year. I have been told that it costs at least 1/- a word to transmit information to any of our American or foreign newspapers. If that is the case, how far will this £25,000 go in carrying out the work of this organisation? On the other hand, if we are going into competition with the existing commercial agencies, we are going to run up against tremendous difficulties, as I have pointed out on the Second Stage.

There is another point which the Minister has not made quite clear, that is, the question of the collection and distribution of news inside the country. What really does he propose that this agency will accomplish in that direction? Earlier to-night he made reference to Radio Eireann, that this organisation would be a supply agency, as it were, for Radio Eireann. From my experience of what has emanated from Radio Eireann during the last few months—and the experience of the Irish people as a whole, not alone those who might be supporters of a political organisation but those who may be supporters of many Parties now comprising the Government, and who have expressed their views to me—Radio Eireann is being run entirely as a political organisation, and I hope the Minister will take all the steps he can take to ensure that this agency will not be run on the same lines as Radio Eireann is being run at the present time.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

It seems to me that it is difficult to discuss any one section of the Bill without making reference to other sections. Senator Hawkins has, in effect, discussed several sections, because he talked about the possibility of this agency earning money, and eventually earning dividends. The Senator does not mean that it will pay dividends. I think it will never be likely to pay dividends in cash, although provision is made for it to do so. I am not concerned with those who speak of it entering into competition with existing news agencies for the purpose of becoming a financial success. In a sense it will be in competition with existing news agencies, because it will be doing publicity for this country of a kind that nobody else is in a position to undertake, and that nobody else, apparently, is disposed to undertake.

Reference has been made that the intention is to put this news service on the desk of every news editor in the world. I am sure that will be done. Let there, however, be no misunderstanding, when I point out that that does not mean that every sentence and every paragraph that goes out will be seen by every news editor. Every news editor I hope will get from time to time such news as he is likely to print. If it is something that is likely to be of no interest to a country we are going to waste money sending it.

Reference has also been made to the cost of cabling. There are many ways by which that cost can be reduced. It is not to be assumed that if we send news to the rest of the world it is going to be sent by cable at a cost of 1/- or 2/- a word. The Minister stated in the other House, in part of the debate to which I listened, that he did not propose to enter into competition with agencies in the way of "hot news". I do not exactly know what "hot news" is. I have heard of hard currency, soft currency, hot news and cold news, names that did not exist in my time on the Press. I assume the Minister means that he is not going to issue first-hand accounts of sensational occurrences, but that the news will be of interest to the places to which it is sent, and of value to us, if published. Such news can very often go by a much cheaper method than cabling, in the form of a news letter relayed from our London office or New York office.

I am speaking, not of what the Minister intends to do, because I do not know any more than any other Senator about the details of what he proposes. I know what I would do, or what anybody who has had journalistic experience would do if in charge of such a Department. I would not send everything to every paper every day, and would not send it by cable. Accordingly I hope to make Senators at ease about the cost. The agency will be of great value to this country in putting the truth over in news about questions now not widely known. It can put over propaganda which would meet with the approval of everybody, if it was to the advantage of this country, in such matters as Ireland for holidays. It can also do a great deal, not only to improve the reputation of this country, but to impart knowledge of this country's grievances. In that way it would be a commercial asset.

Some Senators asked what news it was proposed to issue inside the country. That is a question to which time will supply the answer. News issued inside this country will be news that our people are likely to want to get, and for which they now have to rely on the Press Association or some other agency. Very often news that we get in Irish newspapers comes here in a roundabout fashion. It goes out of the country first, being filtered through to the Press Association or some outside agency, and then comes back to us, not in the original form, not even in correct form, but sometimes in a garbled fashion, either intentionally or unintentionally, or it is suppressed. It may not be considered worthy of being sent out by an agency on the other side, but it might be well worthy of publication if an Irish agency had charge.

To give an instance. Some years ago the sweekstakes prize results were issued in Abbey Street, next door to the Irish Independent office. The results were sent out from Dublin and were sent back from London to Dublin evening papers. That was done as quickly as if the paper had a man on the spot. If news that we want to be published about this country does not seem suitable to an outside agency or if a local correspondent thinks it is not worth telegraphing, he will not send it. If he sends news to the Press Association or the Exchange Telegraph, or some other agency, someone there has to decide whether it is worth reissuing and in what form. Local news, unless collected by newspapers' own men, that comes in from outside in some form, can be coloured by the outlook, political or temperamental, of the person who handles it.

If we want a news agency to deal with Irish affairs carefully, and without prejudice, one that will give us essential news that is valuable to our people, but that has no sensational value for those outside, it will not be published outside. Even if news were sent from here, as it will be, to the ends of the earth, there is no guarantee, nor expectation that everything sent out will be printed. Everything sent out by an agency and that has to be paid for is not printed. Every news paper office that pays for such service gets three or four times the amount of copy it can use. It throws away three-fourths of what it pays for, and makes its own news selection. News editors will throw away a lot of "copy" that we think is valuable. That can go on for years and then we may reasonably expect they will begin to realise the value of Irish news and use more of it. Even people abroad with no local correspondent here might in time request the Irish News Agency to act as their special agents for special research purposes.

Mr. Anthony

Sub-section 2 reads:—

"The objects of the agency shall be so stated in a memorandum of association that the principal function of the agency shall be to ensure the collection, dissemination, distribution and publication of news and intelligence inside and outside the State."

Senator O'Farrell has dealt with what he considered to be the definition of what "inside information" might be. As the sub-section indicates, the Irish News Agency will be used mainly for propaganda purposes. Many Senators and Deputies, too, particularly the Opposition Deputies and Senators, were under the impression that the instrument which this Bill proposes to establish will be used primarily for propaganda purposes for a particular Government. I feel that that idea no longer prevails among Deputies and Senators—that they are now in agreement that the agency will not be used for propaganda only. So far, those who have contributed to the debate in this House have agreed that this news agency can usefully be employed in disseminating news which will counteract, largely, many statements made outside the House, and, perhaps, inside the country, that would probably have a very bad influence on the youth of our country, and on many grown-ups too.

The agency will have a great deal to do with counteracting falsehoods and statements of that character which are made from time to time by people outside the State, as well as by people inside the State. I was reminded rather forcibly of it this morning when I saw a hoarding with two slogans beside other matter. I did not read the other matter, but I noticed that, in outstanding letters, one of the slogans called for a boycott of English publications. The kind of publication to be boycotted was not stated on the hoarding. There was no attempt to classify them. Another of these slogans and, to my mind, a most objectionable slogan, called—and I would like it to be put in quotation marks—for the abolition of "Compulsory English". I mention it as an instance of the false impressions that may be created in the minds of visitors to this country that such slogans represent the views of responsible people in the country. It is very undesirable that any such false impressions should be left without an attempt being made to counteract them, and I think that this agency could do useful work in assuring the people that such slogans painted or printed on our public walls and hoardings around Dublin do not represent the views of even a decent minority of people in this country. The people responsible for them are usually composed of disgruntled and disappointed politicians. They are not people who are engaged in public life as we know it, and they are subversive in their activities in their attempts to create the impression that the ordinary people of this country support them. Their main support comes from the elements in this country who hate the very name of England, but is that any reason why they should plaster the streets of Dublin with subversive slogans of that character? They could well have a very detrimental effect on our people who have to go abroad to seek their livelihoods. I would suggest to the Minister that his Department might well engage in useful activities in showing that these slogans painted and printed on walls and hoardings in Dublin do not represent the considered thought of anyone but a noisy minority of people in this country.

Mr. Hawkins

I think the House will be very glad to hear the Minister replying to the last Senator in relation to the matters he has raised.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ba mhaith liom cúpla ceist a chur ar an Aire ag súil go bhfuighimid a thuille eolais i dtaobh an chineál eolais atá ar intinn aige a bhailiú agus a fhoilsiú ó thaobh na gníomhaireachta seo. Rinne mé tagairt, an tseachtain seo caite, don cheist sin. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuair mé mórán sásaimh ó shoin. Dúirt an tAire nuair a bhí sé ag tabhairt an Bhille isteach nach mbainfeadh sé le go leor rudaí a mbeadh spéis ag daoine iontu. Dúirt sé:

"It is not intended to cover such things as accidents, crimes, court trials, racing, stock exchange reports or even debates in the Oireachtas."

Agus annsin téann sé ar aghaidh agus deireann sé nach é cuspóir na gníomhaireachta foilsiú a thabhairt do bheartais phoilitíochta ná "internal politics." Muna bhfuil sé ag braith eolas den tsórt sin a bhailiú agus a scaipeadh, cé'n sórt eolais atá braith aige a bhailiú agus a chur ar fáil? Sé an fá atá agam leis an gceist a chur agus an fá a bhí agam an cheist cheana a chur an tseachtain seo caite, go bhfuil mé in aimhreas go bhfuil gá le gníomhaireacht den tsórt seo ar chor ar bith. Dúirt an tAire go bhfuil sé ar intinn aige go bhfoilseofaí eolas. Dúirt sé:

"In the first place its function will be to give accurate information and news concerning Ireland, concerning matters of a cultural interest, of a trade interest or of general interest which are calculated to promote goodwill towards Ireland, to promote tourism, to encourage the development of trade and cultural relations between Ireland and the particular country where the news is circulated."

Feictear dom, maidir le nuaíocht den tsóirt sin, nach fundúireacht nó institiúd mar é seo is fearr le dul in a bun. Is dóigh liom gurb é an rud a b'fhearr go dtoghfaí amach daoine cáilithe le haistí spéisiúla a scríobh ar na nithe sin agus iarracht a dhéanamh iad a chur á bhfoilsiú ins na tíortha coigríche i dteangacha na dtíortha sin. Luaigh mé cás nó dhó an tseachtain seo caite mar shompla—an foilsiúcháin a chuireann Rialtas na Portingéile amach cúpla uair sa mbliain. Cuireann siad bulletins amach ina mbíonn eolas le fáil ar chúrsaí sóisialachta, ar chúrsaí airgeadais, ar chúrsaí tráchtála, ar chúrsaí geilleagair, ar shláinte phoiblí agus mar sin de. Ar an gcaoi chéanna, sílim gur thagair mé do Rialtas na Danmhairge a chuireann foilsiúchán mór amach ina mbíonn gach eolas ar imeachtaí na tíre. Ar an gcaoi chéanna —caithidh go gcuimhneoidh an tAire air—chuireas i gcás an iris atá á foilsiú ag Rialtas na hAstráile ina mbíonn cur síos ar chúrsaí tráchtála, cúrsaí tionscail, ar chuile shórt dá mbaineann leis an tír sin.

Do réir mar a thuigim, má bheartaíonn sé ar na rudaí sin go léir, níl fágtha le déanamh ach foilsiú ar an mbealach atá mé a rá. Más mar sin é, ba cheart a rá linn cén saghas daoine atá ar intinn aige leis an eolas a bhailiú, leis an eolas a chur síos, na haistí a chur le chéile agus mar sin de.

An chuid is mó den eolas gheobhfaidh sé é as na Foilsiúcháin Rialtais, gheobhfaidh sé é san Statistical Abstract. Gheobhfaidh sé é, b'fhéidir, ón Federation of Industries, ón mBord Cuartaíochta agus mar sin de.

Ba mhaith liom go n-inseodh sé dhúinn chomh maith agus atá ar a chumas céard díreach atá ar intinn aige. Eisean a cheap an Bille. Caithfidh go bhfuil fhios aige go beacht in a intinn céard atá uaidh. Ba mhaith liom go dtiubhradh sé dhúinn lide ar céard faoi a mbaileofaí an t-eolas agus cén sórt eolas é. Ba mhaith liom fios a bheith agam ar cén chaoi a cuirfear an t-eolas amach, sé sin le rá, an mbeidh san ngníomhaireacht nua baill nó members ar an gcaoi a bhfuil baill nó "subscribers" ann ins na comhluchtaí éagsúla, Press Association, Reuter, agus mar sin de. An bhfuil sé ag súil go n-íocfaidh institiúidí eile nuaíochta agus páipéirí, agus mar sin de, táillí le go mbeidh siad in a mbaill den ghníomhaireacht nua seo agus go bhfuighidh siad an t-eolas do réir mar atá sé ar fáil mar chuid dá gceart mar bhaill den ghníomhaireacht?

Sin, is dóigh liom, an méid. Tá poinntí eile luaite ag Seanadóirí eile. Ná ceapadh aon duine gur d'aon turas le cose a chur le cúrsaí an Bhille ins an Seanad atáim ag cur na gceisteanna seo. Tá mé á gcur chun go bhfuighmid lide ar an alt an-tábhachtach seo faoi cén chaoi is dóigh leis an Aire a gcuirfí an rud ar fad i bhfeidhm.

Mr. MacBride

The type of news I visualise will be any news calculated to create an atmosphere of sympathetic interest in Ireland. Under the heading of cultural news, for instance, there would be reviews of new Irish books that may be of interest abroad, reviews of new plays, reviews of new works of art produced here, news items concerning various international events that occur here. It is a thing that I often feel has not been exploited enough from a news point of view. We have, in the course of the year, a number of international congresses of one kind or another, with delegates coming from different parts of the world to them. Antiquarians, astronomers, and medical congresses of one kind or another, and one of the things I hope the news agency would be able to do would be to send back to the countries from which these delegates come, news items concerning the activities of such gatherings here. Economic news, an economic survey, a thing that can be done much better by short articles on economic questions, and by publishing separate publications. We may produce a statistical survey here by our Stationery Office. I have no doubt it would be well produced, but how is that going to reach the hands of only but a few? Obviously, if you can secure publication in one big American paper, even of such an economic survey, it will reach far more eyes than if we published it through our Stationery Office here. If we can get into several hundred papers throughout the world we will get a far wider circulation than we could ever dream of obtaining by circulating it ourselves; trade information of a general nature, and specialised trade information for trade papers; political information of a non-contentious type in so far as our home political events are concerned.

I do not think, with respect to Senator Anthony, that the type of political matter to which he referred should be the subject matter of any comment by us, by a news agency, outside the country. These are matters concerning our own internal home politics. Tourist information, if I may take one instance where, I think, there is a tremendous field open to us, photographs. I am fairly familiar with the American Press and the Press of many countries. One thing which is striking is the number of photographs of Alpine scenes or scenery in Switzerland, or something connected with Switzerland that appear systematically in the Press of the world, all supplied by a Swiss news agency. One photograph of a spot in Ireland, be it a well-known spot like Killarney or somewhere else, is worth, published in some big newspaper, thousands of pounds of advertising. The House will remember, that at the time of the Council of Europe meeting in Strasbourg, we were largely, and a great many of the papers in the western world at large were dependent on other newspaper agencies for reports of what our own delegates were doing there. I think we would get better reports if these were produced by an Irish news agency.

A question was asked by a Senator as to the distribution of news inside the State; what was meant by that. I thought I had dealt with that before, but let me explain it again. Inevitably, the news agency will distribute news inside the State. A corporation or a company is strictly bound by its articles of association. It cannot do anything it is not empowered to do. It is an artificial creature, and those members who are familiar with the articles of association of any kind of company will be amazed at seeing the number of activities which are covered by it. That is because, of course, a lawyer in drawing up the memorandum of association of a company will include in it all the various things it has to do, for fear you might come to a position where there was some particular thing that was not covered by it. Now, likewise with the news agency. The news agency has to envisage every possible eventuality and in the course of its work as a news agency, even if it were only circulating information exclusively abroad, it is bound to disseminate some information in Ireland. If it supplies news to the shortwave wireless station it will be disseminating news in Ireland. If it supplies, as I hope it will, its service or part of its service to the correspondents of foreign papers working in Ireland it will be disseminating news in Ireland. If it gives, as I hope it will, news to our home papers here concerning things which happen abroad, from time to time, it will be disseminating news in Ireland. Unless they were provided for in the Bill and in the memorandum of association it would be acting ultra vires as regards its powers and, therefore, would be restrained from so doing.

I do not want to raise this as a controversial matter—I do not think it arises here—but, in passing, I should like to dissociate myself completely from any suggestion that Radio Eireann is being used improperly by the Government. The actual distribution of the news will be carried out, probably, in the main, through the offices of the company abroad. News will be transmitted to the New York office and it will then be the function of the New York office to disseminate that news to a certain number of newspapers in America. Likewise, in the case of London, the offices of the news agency there will be charged with keeping in contact with the various news agencies of other countries which also operate from London and exchange news with them there.

Liam Ó Buachalla

The news will be distributed free of all cost?

Mr. MacBride

I would say that the bulk of it probably will, but, in so far as the news agency can sell a service, I think it should do so. It will be a matter entirely for the news agency itself to determine to what extent it can. I take it it will have three or four categories of services. It may have a free service and it may offer a special service for papers that want more news and want it more quickly. It may have a telegraphic service and may provide a feature service. It may have a photographic service, for which it may or may not make a nominal charge. These are things, however, that will have to be dealt with ad hoc as they arise. It will be mainly a matter for the news agency, into which I will not enter—a matter for the newspapermen dealing with it.

Mr. Hawkins

Is it not quite evident to the Minister that, if this procedure is adopted, the news agency is going to be left in a position to decide for itself when news will be made available free and when it will be made available at a particular charge to a particular newspaper, and that favouritism will enter into it? It is quite possible that if a particular newspaper in a foreign country enters into an agreement with this news agency to supply it with information on a charge basis, the news agency will not alone be giving the information, the hot news, if you like, but will also be giving news at greater speed and much sooner than it reaches the people who are not prepared to pay these charges.

Mr. MacBride

The same thing could be said of other concerns, because you can impute ill motives to anybody.

Mr. Hawkins

These are business motives.

Mr. MacBride

The same might be said of Irish Shipping, or Aer Lingus, or any other company that sells it services. You must leave to them judgment and discretion in the matter of how much they can charge for their services, what way they should develop them and what way they should build them. Somebody has to decide these things and surely the experts of the company itself are in a better position to decide it than the House or I.

Mr. Hawkins

Surely the Minister will agree that Aer Lingus or Irish Shipping are all the time selling their services. Here is an organisation which has a twofold purpose. One of these purposes is to give news which they think is valuable to the nation and which they would like to have made available to other countries, and then there is the purpose of selling other news. There is no comparison at all as between this news agency and Aer Lingus or Irish Shipping.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

I should like to assure Senator Hawkins again that there could not be any favouritism in the running of an agency of this sort. I speak with inside knowledge. If news is offered free to any one paper, it is offered free to every paper. If anybody wants to buy news, the news is there for sale. There is no favouritism. That system works at present—different rates are charged by existing agencies for different services. There are States and countries which send out information which is free. There are sometimes commercial houses which send out paragraphs which are free and sometimes paragraphs and special articles—they may be interviews and so on—come into the offices, with the statement on them that a fee of so much is charged if the article is published. In the case of others, the statement is that the article can be published without any fee.

There is no new principle set out in the Bill. This system is in existence and has worked satisfactorily all over the world in the case of existing agencies. I do not see why it should not work with equal satisfaction in the case of this agency. This agency, if it has different services, will have the different services because they serve different purposes, but they will be available to everybody who wants them, I assume.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ní thógfadh an tAire orm má abraim go bhfeictear dom nach dtuigeann sé féin gur rómhaith cén chaoi a n-oibreoidh an ghníomhaireacht seo amach. Ní thógfadh sé sin orm agus ní thógfainn air ach oiread nach bhfuil tuigsint chruinn aige ar cén chaoi a n-oibreoidh sé amach. Feictear dom gurb é an chaoi gur chuimhnigh sé go mba mhaith an rud gníomaireacht nuachta Eireannach a bheith ann agus go ndúirt sé go ndéanfadh sé a dhícheall chun a leithéid a chur ar bun. Thairis sin, feictear dom nach bhfuil sé cruinn ina intinn ar cén chaoi a n-oibreoidh sé amach. Tá fhios agam an rud ba mhaith leis. Tá fhios agam an rud ba mhaith liom agus an rud ba mhaith linn go léir, ach níor tugadh aon eolas dúinn, aon eolas ar féidir leat a rá gur eolas beacht nó réasúnach é, ar cén chaoi a n-oibreoidh sé amach.

Chítear dom gurb é an rud is mó atá ar intinn ag an Aire go scríofar sraith aistí, go scríobhfar go maith agus go taitneamhach iad, agus go gcuirfear iad ar fáil sa riocht go bhfeileoidh siad ar an "magazine page" ar pháipéirí agus irisí éagsúla. An tuairim atá agam, más mar sin a bheas an scéal, in áit na bpáipéirí sin, cé is moite de na "digests," bheith ag iarraidh na rudaí seo d'fáil agus a fhoilsiú agus airgead a íoc astu, go mbeidh siad a súil le híocaíocht uainn ar iad d'fhoilsiú. Má dheineann an beartas sin maitheas don tír, beidh mé sásta, ach ní miste liom a rá go bhfuil mé fós in aimhreas ar cén chaoi a n-oibreoidh an rud amach agus má abrann an tAire nach bhfuil sé ach ag tógáil seans go n-oibreoidh sé amach, deirim nach bhfuil mórán lochta agam air agus go bhfuil súil agam go bhfuighidh an coiste a bheas in a mbun slí leis an obair a dhéanamh agus go n-eireoidh go maith leo.

Mr. R.M. Burke

There is one type of news which has not been mentioned and which I think would be of great benefit to the country if it were circulated abroad, that is, news of any improvements in social conditions which have been brought about in this country recently or which are being brought about. I am not for one moment suggesting that such news should be put in such a way as to benefit one particular Party; it should be put as coming from the nation as a whole. During recent years I have seen articles in newspapers published outside the country which have laid great stress and emphasis upon certain unfortunate things that happen in this country, including articles referring to the large numbers of people of this country who are living in appalling slums, and giving detailed descriptions of overcrowding and bad conditions. Newspapers have also referred to people living in extreme poverty, but I have scarcely ever seen an article showing what is being done to eradicate the slums and improve the conditions of the people. I think that we should let the world know that efforts are now being made in Ireland to eliminate the slums, to give people better housing conditions, to raise the standard of living of the poorer sections of the community and to establish more Christian social conditions throughout the country. It would be very desirable that the people of other nations should know that we in this country are making an effort to improve the social and economic conditions of the masses of the people.

Mr. MacBride

I quite agree with Senator Burke's suggestion. The only limitation upon it is the extent to which that news can be made of sufficient interest to secure publication and that is quite an art in itself. Undoubtedly, it is very important. Unfortunately, as Senator Burke has pointed out, a proportion of the feature articles published outside this country has been insulting to the country. I have some particular instances in mind recently and possibly Senator Burke has the same instances in mind, a most damaging article published recently on the social and economic conditions in this country.

In regard to a matter raised by Senator O Buachalla, the method of transmission of the news will have to vary in different cases. The main task is to get the news on the news desks of the papers. The question of how it is paid for depends on our ability to secure payment, that is, if it is sufficiently interesting. Probably the news agency may decide after initiating completely free services to send out news on a publication basis, that is, if the newspapers used news they would pay so much for it. They may also undertake to supply special services for news of special importance or a certain quantity of news at fixed intervals or to provide news at a great speed, but the aim is to get the news published.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 8.

Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill".

Mr. Hawkins

I think the House would like to have some indication from the Minister as to the type of persons he proposes to appoint as directors of this board. After all, that is important.

Mr. MacBride

The board of directors will be mainly concerned with the business side and the smooth running of the company. It will, in addition, have to tie in with existing Government Departments which deal to a certain degree with news. For instance, if it is going to supply news to the shortwave broadcasting station it will be convenient to have somebody from the broadcasting station on the board. I do not want to be tied to this because I have not really examined it in detail. It might be necessary, I think, to have someone tying in with the Government Information Bureau and also with the Department of External Affairs. The directors' job will be to look after the business side and the integration of the work. The advisory board, as the Seanad will see, is to be composed of representatives of newspaper editors, journalists, correspondents, and so on.

Mr. Hawkins

I should like to make one suggestion to the Minister in connection with the appointment of the board. I quite appreciate the fact that it will be necessary to have members of various organisations like Radio Eireann and the Minister's own Department on the board, but in order that the board might command the confidence of all sections in this House and in the country, no person should be appointed as director, if possible, who has taken an active part in Party politics. I dislike making this suggestion because people in this country who do not take part in politics are not worthy to be talked about, but it would be well if no such person were appointed to this responsible position.

Mr. Baxter

It would be a poor board, according to the Senator's own standard.

Mr. Hearne

Sub-section (2) (b) is:—

"The said articles shall provide that a member of either House of the Oireachtas shall not, except with the prior approval of Dáil Éireann, be appointed a director of the agency."

I do not envisage the appointment of a member of Seanad Éireann as a director, but I think the principle we in this House should establish is that the prior approval of Seanad Éireann should be necessary for the appointment of a member of Seanad Éireann. I am giving expression to a purely personal point of view. I do not believe in this exclusion of members of the Oireachtas from membership of public or Government-sponsored boards. I fully realise that, in most cases, a very valid objection can be raised. I think it is most undesirable that a member of either House, particularly of Dáil Éireann, should be a member of the board of a Government company for which a Minister in Dáil Éireann might have to account some day, but I think we are going a little bit too far in excluding members of the Oireachtas from membership of boards of this type which would be different, say, from Bord na Móna the Agricultural Credit Corporation or similar companies which operate mainly inside the country. Probably, on the balance, examining the question; we would come to the same conclusion as the Minister has come to when he included this sub-section in Section 8, but if we grant that, I submit to the Minister that this House should at least be given an opportunity of giving prior approval to the appointment of a member of this House who might, possibly, be deemed worthy to become a member of this board. At present the position is that a Senator can only be appointed with the prior approval of Dáil Éireann and from a constitutional point of view I think that is undesirable. If the Minister would consider, on the Report Stage, inserting the words "except with the prior approval of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Eireann, as the case may be", it would meet the small point I have made.

Mr. M. Hayes

I rather agree with Senator Hearne. I have heard him express these views before. It has been argued that it is unthinkable that a member of either House should be a member of such a board. It is too prevalent an idea that a person who becomes a member of the Dáil or Seanad becomes an untouchable and is doing something dishonourable or wrong. Naturally, I do not accept that view. This amendment was, I think, an opposition amendment and it seemed to me that there were grave objections to it, but if it is going to be here I accept Senator Hearne's view. I think it should read "a member of either House shall not, without the prior approval of the House of which he is a member, be appointed a director". That would meet Senator Hearne's point of view. I think it is most objectionable that if a member of the Dáil is going to be appointed, there should be a motion in the Dáil about him. I think it is quite unprecedented that a motion should concern one single individual. A motion often concerns a Minister but it concerns the Minister in his public or administrative capacity. Here we are going to discuss whether A.B. is suitable, on the grounds of general qualifications and character, for a post of this kind. Unless paragraph (b) means that no Minister will ever appoint a member of the Dáil or Seanad, the provision seems to be a most objectionable one.

Whatever Government was in office, and whatever side of the House I sat on, I would find great difficulty in discussing a proposal that Seanad Éireann approves of the nomination of Senator A.B. to be a director of the Irish News Agency. The kind of speech you would have to make on it, unless you developed into fulsome praise of the person, would get you into a position which Senators should not be in. My own inclination would be to delete paragraph (b) altogether and leave the Minister free to appoint anyone he pleases. If he appointed a member of the Dáil or Seanad, that could be discussed, but perhaps not on a definite motion. Alternatively, there could be a rule that a member of the Dáil or Seanad cannot be a member of the board. The notion that the Dáil is going to discuss Deputy A.B., or that the Seanad is going to discuss Senator A. B., his capacity or qualifications for membership of this board, is most revolting. I do not like it at all and I cannot see what kind of speech could be made if there were objection. I can think of the plamás end—that would be grand—but the critical end would be difficult. It would do great damage to the person and would be discreditable to everyone.

Mr. Hearne

The Senator will agree with me that, under this section, Dáil Éireann could discuss a member of this House without this House being able to express an opinion at all.

Mr. M. Hayes

I am in agreement with the Senator that this provision was hastily inserted. We could put in "except with the prior approval of the House of which he is a member". That would keep the Dáil to members of the Dáil and the Seanad to members of the Seanad. It is a fantastic proposition that the Dáil should engage in solemn discussion as to whether Senator X.Y. should be something or other.

Mr. Hearne

If the principle were accepted, I would agree with Senator Hayes, but the principle is not accepted by me.

Mr. Hawkins

If my memory serves me aright, when this amendment was introduced by the Minister in the Dáil it was as a result of a point made by a member of the Opposition, that no member of the Dáil should be appointed. I think the Minister pointed out then that when this came before the Seanad it would not receive a very easy passage. I agree with what Senator Hayes and Senator Hearne have said on that.

In the event of a member of either House being appointed, it would be only fair that they should be called upon to resign from membership of the House. I can see difficulties arising if a question is put down and the Minister is called upon to answer for the activities of the board while there is in the House a member of the board who may have views of his own. It would be in keeping with good government if the Minister thinks it proper to appoint a member of either House that that person should be free to accept the appointment without any approval of either House. We have already had Senators appointed to various boards and we were never asked for approval or disapproval. It should be the same in this case. The person then appointed should cease to be a member of this. House or the other House.

Mr. M. Hayes

To operate Senator Hawkins' idea, there would need to be a prohibition on membership of the Dáil or Seanad. If the Minister wanted to appoint a particular Senator, the Senator would resign and then be appointed. For my own part, I am inclined, as a public man, to resent the whole idea. I would say: "Let the Minister do what seems good to him and let him answer for it". As a matter of fact, the public have been misled to a great extent into thinking that the members of the Dáil detest one another and do not recognise any merits in one another because they are on different sides of the House. That is not so, nor is it so in this House. It is quite conceivable that a particular Deputy or Senator might be good for this board. I do not know. It is quite obvious that I am not an eligible person and I am not bothering about it. If you go the whole hog, you prevent police, army officers, civil servants, perhaps servants of local authorities, employees of the Electricity Board or other boards, from becoming members of the Dáil or Seanad. You widen the scope of government and narrow the scope of people from whom you can get governors. To some extent you did it in the other House, and there was a certain amount of acrimony about it. What I would like to do with paragraph (b) is to take it out, and to say to the other House: "If you do not like what the Minister does—this Minister or any other Minister—have your crack at him."

Mr. S. O'Farrell

I agree with Senator Hayes. I have no personal interest in this matter, and I do not expect that I ever will have one. I think the best thing to do is to delete paragraph (b) entirely. I do not see why there should be a specific article in this Bill providing that everybody is eligible for a directorship of the agency excepting a member of the Oireachtas. It is particularly objectionable in the form it is in here, that while it might be possible to appoint or to suggest the appointment of a member of the Oireachtas or of the Seanad, the Seanad might not be consulted. I feel that it would be much better to delete the clause altogether, and that would meet the points raised by Senator Hawkins and by members on the other side of the House. There is no good reason for keeping in paragraph (b) in its present form, where it deprives this House of asserting rights unless they are conferred by the Dáil. The sub-clause of Section 8 provides that a member of either House of the Oireachtas shall not be appointed a director of the agency except with the prior approval of Dáil Éireann, and it will be much better if the Minister will agree to delete it.

Mr. Baxter

The difficulty with regard to this is that the Dáil agreed to insert this sub-section on representations from Deputy Lemass—I think it was he who made them.

Mr. Hearne

That is correct.

Mr. Baxter

I think the Dáil met Deputy Lemass in that.

Mr. Hawkins

But, Deputy Lemass pointed out that when the matter came before the Seanad it was entirely a matter for the Seanad.

Mr. Baxter

Apart from anything said already in either House, I feel, with other Senators, that if there is somebody suitable for the board of directors for the agency from this House or from the other House there is no reason why he should not be appointed. After all, that man must be the keeper of his own conscience when he is on the board and despite the manner in which we criticise him, we must assume he will do his best when he is appointed to the board, irrespective of his political views.

Mr. Hearne

I subscribe to that entirely.

Mr. Baxter

It is not a wrong point of view for members of the Oireachtas to assent to suggestions that that is not the attitude that will be taken up by one of its members who may be placed in such a position. There has been a great deal of propaganda against the appointment of members of the Oireachtas but we should not take up the attitude of continually protesting against it. As Senator Hayes has pointed out the more restrictions you put on individuals as to their places in public life, the narrower you make the possible choices.

Mr. Hearne

Leave it until the Report Stage. I would like to make it clear that the restricting amendment to which I take objection was inserted by the Minister as a result of the views expressed in the Dáil by some members, but Deputy Lemass made it clear that the Seanad should consider it: that it was a matter entirely for the Seanad, and there was also the question raised as to whether it might be deemed impertinent on the part of Dáil Éireann to insert such a provision.

Mr. M. Hayes

I think that the House might accept the suggestion that we have got, to defer paragraph (b). We might have some decision about it to-night.

Mr. Baxter

If this House was unanimous on it——

Mr. Hearne

Unanimous on what?

Mr. M. Hayes

On the deletion of (b) altogether. I have not had an opportunity of consulting the Minister, and I do not know his views.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are not discussing it now. Perhaps we could leave it over until the next day.

Mr. M. Hayes

Let Section 8 stand, and let us go ahead and see what happens later on.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 9.

Question proposed: "That Section 9 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hearne

The only objection I have to make to this section is on the same grounds as before, that it seems wrong that this agency should be excluded from the ordinary operations of the Companies Acts. This agency should, I think, be divorced as far as possible, from Government control.

Mr. Baxter

You have put that on record already.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 10.

Question proposed: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hawkins

I would like to know why is there a provision enabling the Oireachtas to lend a particular sum to enable the formation of this company when we have already, from the Minister himself, an assurance that this company is never going to be a paying concern?

Mr. Hayes

I understand that the procedure in these cases is that the money must be advanced by way of loan to the promoters. This company, like every company, will have formation expenses to meet.

Mr. Hearne

I agree that ordinary promotion expenses must often remain to be met for a long time after the company has been formed. I would far prefer that instead of giving a loan to the company, a grant should be made to avoid using the word "loan". Section 10 provides that—

"the Minister may, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, lend to the agency upon such terms and conditions as to time and manner of repayment, rate of interest, security and other matters whatsoever as he shall think proper, a sum not exceeding £250 to be applied by the agency in or towards paying the expenses of the promotion, formation and registration of the agency ..."

I would far prefer that instead of a loan a grant should be made.

Mr. Hayes

The Minister knows, as Senator Hearne knows, that that section deals with the Department of Finance. The Department of Finance is a Department which has very great regard for long precedents and it has very decided views on these matters. In the Supplementary Estimate the word "loan" was used and that being so, the word "loan" is used in the Bill. That is the method of the Department of Finance. The Minister for External Affairs may not have succeeded in persuading the Department of Finance to alter its courses, but perhaps Senator Hearne may have better luck if he ever becomes a Minister.

Mr. Baxter

Let the section go.

Mr. Hearne

I yield to no one in my admiration of the Department of Finance as a watch-dog of public finance, but I will not yield to them in a matter of principle.

Mr. Hayes

Maybe, with the help of God, if Senator Hearne ever becomes a Minister he will make the Department of Finance toe the line.

Mr. Hearne

I have no hope of doing that, but I did hope that the astuteness of the Minister for External Affairs might enable him to evade the watch-dog of the Department of Finance in this. I think it will be far more preferable, and that the Minister for External Affairs will be much more happy, if a grant is made instead of a loan. After all, principles are not subject to finance.

Mr. Hayes

Maybe—I am not so sure. I have listened for a long time, and I have a feeling that everything is subject to finance now.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 11 and 12 agreed to.

SECTION 13.

Question proposed: "That Section 13 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hawkins

This, I understand, is merely a continuation of the practice that has been formulated in the case of Comhlucht Siuicre Eireann Teo. It is a continuation of that practice.

Mr. MacBride

That is quite correct.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 14.

Question proposed: "That Section 14 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hearne

May I ask the Minister this question? The qualification holding is one share. Section 14 says that every member of the agency shall hold, in effect, a share by virtue of the permission of the Minister for Finance. I have gathered from the Minister that his idea was that the board, while they might out of ordinary business reasons have associations with, say, the Department of External Affairs, Radio Éireann, and some other bodies, I cannot recall for the moment, that they would have a certain amount of independence or to use the Minister's own expression when the Bill went through "This was a child who would have to stand on his own legs." Does there not seem to be there a certain circumscribing of the possible freedom of the news agency? I myself am not too sure in my own mind whether it really does circumscribe. Take, for example, that I was a member of the board. I would hold one share, and I would hold it by virtue of the fact that the Minister for Finance made it available. If I felt there was something going on, with which I disagreed, I would resign and hand back the share. The Minister has sufficient experience to know that most boards are not run that way. I mean, you would not always lead with your chin or dig your heels in. There must be a certain amount of give and take. I think it would be very dangerous if the board had this feeling that there was some circumscribing of their rights and freedom. I think that would be undesirable. I am sure the Minister would agree with me on that. Whether this section will give that power or not I am not sure. I merely asked the Minister's view on the section, on the possibility of what I said happening.

Mr. MacBride

I see the difficulty the Senator raises. The section deals with members of a company, not necessarily directors. There are members of the company who have their annual formal shareholders' meetings. One of the difficulties, in any measure of this kind, is that, naturally, the Department of Finance is the watchdog of the public purse and enforces certain rules fairly strictly and once a precedent is set in one particular company, or in one particular statute, they insist on maintaining the precedent and the safeguards they have established for themselves. Section 14 is a replica of numerous similar sections in other Acts. I do not think there is anything in the section that does, in fact, circumscribe the freedom of action of members of the company. It casts upon them the onus of holding shares in trust for the Minister for Finance and of not being able to kick over their responsibility completely and say: "Here is my share. I can sell it, or do what I like with it."

Mr. Hearne

If I were in charge of this Bill I would probably go much further than the Minister, because I regard this Bill as much more important than any other Bill that establishes a Government-sponsored concern and, because of that, I would fight Finance to the limits on a question like that.

Mr. MacBride

The Bill got here. Senator, and I am lucky to have got it so far.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 15.

Question proposed: "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill."

Liam Ó Buachalla

An bhfuil dóchas ar bith go mbeidh ar chumas na Gníomhaireachta Nuachta, díbhinn nó bónas d'íoc laistigh de thréimhse réasúnach nó an amhlaidh nach bhfuil sa rud go léir ach cur i gcéill nó, mar deirtear sa nGaeltacht, "mada sa bhfuinneoig"?

Mr. MacBride

I sympathise with the Senator. I assure the Senator it is not window dressing. We are setting up a news agency that will be operating ten, 20, 30 or 50 years hence. You never know how successful it may be. You never know what action may make this country the centre of news for Europe, for instance, at some stage. There is a possibility it may make money on some occasions.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Just a possibility.

Mr. MacBride

And it is just to cover that possibility, because we are not now legislating for six months hence. We are legislating for ten or 20 years hence.

Mr. Hearne

It is seldom I disagree with Senator Ó Buachalla, but I would not be at all anxious, and this is my own personal opinion, about the possibility of dividends being paid as far as money is concerned. The position that the Minister envisages may come to pass. We do not know. Queer things are happening in the world to-day, very, very queer things and, as the Minister has said, you may possibly find this country a centre for the disseminaton of news to Europe. Leaving all these possibilities aside, and taking the broad view if this Bill does work, despite a certain doubt that was cast on the approach to it from our side of the House as to what we hope will be done by the Bill when it becomes an Act then, as far as I am concerned, and I am sure as far as the people of Ireland are concerned, it will not matter a hoot whether there is 1/- or £1,000,000 dividend paid. The dividends we are really looking for will be on a far higher plane than mere money. It is with all sincerity I say that the things we hoped for in years gone by, the things we hoped for when we got liberty and we became more cynical, are not measured in terms of dividends, but the dividend I would like to see paid to the Irish people would be the spreading abroad, and to the rest of the world, of what this country stands for, not to-day, but in centuries past.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 16.

Question proposed: "That Section 16 stand part of the Bill."

Mrs. Concannon

On an earlier section I asked the Minister would the board follow the example of Bord na Móna and other State-sponsored companies and give a report? He referred me to Section 16. That, as far as I can make out, would only give us information about the finances of the board and would not give us any of these tangible results for which Senator Hearne hopes. It would not tell us what we would like to hear. It would stir enthusiasm and interest in the agency if we could have once a year at least an informative and interesting report of their work. Otherwise, we would be very much in the dark.

I share Senator Hearne's belief that the people would appreciate the good work that we hope the agency will do, but if we are to have interest in it, we would need to know about it and it is only through an annual report that that objective could be obtained.

Captain Orpen

The Minister, in his Second Reading speech, following possibly a suggestion by Senator Douglas, seemed agreed to the idea that in semi-State companies it might be desirable to have some method of examining the working that was a little more comprehensive than merely a balance sheet produced by the company. It is suggested that possibly something along the lines of what they do in Sweden might be desirable. Whether it is necessary in this particular State company to have this elaborate machinery or not, one does not know, but certainly, in general, we want something more than exists to-day to investigate the operations of these companies because we are only given the information that they wish to present. We cannot in any way demand the information that we require. In an ordinary company the shareholders are entitled to ask for information at least once a year and, presumably, they get it. These semi-State companies, however, present reports. Those reports are drawn up by the company and we have no method of questioning them. I would hope that possibly the Minister could see his way to provide some machinery whereby we could question the workings of these companies. It is not merely enough to say that we can discuss the thing on his Estimate. This House cannot discuss it on his Estimate, for one thing, and secondly, in the Dáil it may be overlooked as there are so many other things that the Minister may be asked on his Estimate. Therefore, I suggest, that, if it is possible for him to carry out—it was not a promise—his agreement on principle, it would be desirable to have some sort of machinery for the semi-State and State companies so that they could be investigated periodically while, at the same time, maintaining day to day control.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Bhfuil aon rud le rá ag an Aire i dtaobh an méid atá ráite ag an Seanadóir Bean Uí Choincheannain maidir le socrú a dhéanamh tuarascáil fháil on mBord i dtaobh oibriú na gníomhaireachta?

Mr. MacBride

I sympathise entirely with the point made both by Senator Mrs. Concannon and Senator Orpen. Certainly, it is my intention that the company should produce a report with its balance sheet. I am afraid I cannot say whether there is a specific provision contained in the Turf Board Act or the other Acts saying that but I know there is specific provision for the laying of the accounts on the Table of both Houses. I think the report is a supplementary thing that the companies furnish themselves. It is obviously to the advantage of the company to furnish with its accounts a report of its activities so as to justify its expenditure, so that when the Estimates come up before the Dáil, they can say: "There is all the good work we have done. Please vote us more money." I agree entirely with the advisability of doing that and I think it should be done. I do not think it is necessary to incorporate it in the Bill.

As to Senator Hawkins' suggestion, it does not really affect very much this particular Bill but I think it is a matter of very considerable importance. I think the time has come when methods of examining the affairs of all State-sponsored companies should be provided by the Oireachtas. It is a matter that should be considered and discussed objectively on a non-Party basis and it is a matter, I feel, of very considerable importance because the big failure of nationalisation in a great many cases has been the tendency towards bureaucracy, very often towards inefficiency and in some cases, I think, towards some kind of political preferment. So that I think here we should try to forearm ourselves to prevent such a position from arising in the future.

It is going completely outside the scope, possibly, of the Bill but the mere fact that now we are taking over our transport and that the news agency and numerous other undertakings are developing and acquiring more power, renders it all the more necessary that some provisions should be made to investigate the affairs of each of these companies at regular intervals. I know I am probably trespassing on the House and going outside the scope of the discussion. I feel, however, that neither the Dáil nor the Seanad is the most efficient body for providing such machinery because it may very often require very minute examination and it should also be some form of investigation that will enable any citizen to go in with his complaint and to say that he is not getting the service he is entitled to or that he is being overcharged for the service he is getting and have that investigated.

It occurred to me that the more satisfactory way of dealing with it would be through the setting up of an administrative court, which is a practice which has been followed in many other countries, where any citizen could go in with his complaint and have it dealt with on the spot, publicly. I am sorry if I have transgressed but I thought I should mention that. It is a matter of some interest.

Mr. Hearne

In connection with the provision in Section 16 for the tabling of balance sheet, profit and loss account, and so on, I think similar provisions apply in respect of Bord na Móna. Again, strictly within the limits of the law, they could merely present a balance sheet. They go much further. The last report was an admirable report.

Mr. MacBride

Splendid.

Mr. Hearne

It was one of the best reports I have seen for many a long day.

Mr. MacBride

That is right.

Mr. Hearne

If the balance sheet and profit and loss account to be furnished under this section will include something like that, I am sure it would meet the wishes of Senator Mrs. Concannon and myself. While I admit that it is slightly outside the ambit of this Bill, I was very glad that the Minister dealt with this business of Government-sponsored boards, and the feeling that there is that the ordinary individual is becoming more and more powerless as far as these big organisations are concerned. It is very desirable that that expression of opinion should be given by the Minister. I am not tying him down now to any responsibility for a Government statement in this matter. It is very desirable and very welcome to hear from the Minister his opinion that the matter is one that should be the subject of consideration, objectively, apart from any political Party affiliations.

Again I will crave the indulgence of the House. It is accepted, I think, by all Parties in the State that there are certain things that must be done by the State where private individuals would be either incompetent or unable to command the resources necessary to make the project a success. Generally speaking, I think it is accepted that the development of our turf industry demands such great resources that a private concern, actuated solely by the motive of possible profits or dividends, could not undertake the huge work involved. It is essential, and I think it is agreed by all Parties in the State, that it is eminently desirable in the national interest, that there should be development of our bogs. We are agreed on that, but there is a difficulty. I remember that the Electricity Supply Board was established on the basis of much the same consideration and the growing feeling has been that they have acquired power so great that the ordinary private citizen, who, in the final analysis, is going to decide whether they will stay there or not——

Mr. MacBride

He is their shareholder.

Mr. Hearne

He is their shareholder, and he is unable to get the information necessary for him to decide whether the existing set-up should last or should be modified. The statement of the Minister on the general principle is very welcome, so far as I am concerned. It is a matter about which the public mind should be agitated to a greater extent than it is at present. One of the things on which we can find agreement is an approach to this problem, which is one of our biggest problems, from a purely objective non-Party point of view.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 17 agreed to.

SECTION 18.

Question proposed: "That Section 18 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hawkins

The House would like to have a little more information with regard to this section. The section provides that an advisory board may be set up to advise and assist the agency in the conduct of its functions, as and when requested by the managing director of the agency. I take it we are making provision for the setting up of an advisory board consisting of certain classes of people engaged in the business of collecting news. This board, which I assume will be paid out of State funds, is to advise the managing director, but only on such occasions as he requests their advice. We have already a board of directors and we have already made provision for the recruitment of staff, which, we understand, are to be a highly skilled staff of qualified journalists who know their business from A to Z and paid proper trade union wages.

This advisory board which it is proposed to set up is to be called into consultation only when the manging director requests. The board may be set up and it may hold one meeting. The managing director may not see eye to eye with the views of some of the members of the board and may decide that it would be better if the board were not called into consultation any more. I do not know what provision the Minister proposes to make—how he proposes that the members of the board are to be reimbursed for their attendance and whether they are to be paid a specified salary or merely travelling expenses. The House would like to have more definite information from the Minister as to what the functions of the board are to be and also with regard to the proposal that the board should be called in to give advice, only when the managing director so requests.

Mrs. Concannon

Can the Minister say why the managing director is given the power instead of the chairman? One would imagine that in the hierarchy of officers the chairman would be above the managing director.

Captain Orpen

This board is to function in the matter of giving advice when requested to do so by the managing director of the company. Surely one can envisage the possibility of its being desirable that the board should function at some time when the managing director does not want it to do so. I suggest that the Minister, as well as the managing director, should have power to get the board to functions. As I read it, the board only functions at the request of the managing director, and I can envisage a time when the Minister might like it to function. He has no power to get it to do so and I suggest he should take that power.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

I drew attention to that on the Second Reading because it seemed to me that the advisory board was put in at the end of the Bill as a sort of afterthought and was in no way linked with the board of directors or the news agency itself. I cannot even now see how it will be linked up. Desirable as it is to have some body of experts who will act in an advisory capacity, the possibility, and almost the probability, is there that the managing director may decide that he is the man who knows all about it. Even the board may decide that they will not ask for advice, and if advice were given, it probably would not be accepted. But having been given and having been turned down, I could imagine the members of the advisory board resigning and saying that there was no sense in remaining there any longer.

I should like to see some advisory body, because I think it will be necessary. A hundred difficulties are bound to arise which none of us can visualise at the moment and it would be well that as representative a body of experienced people as possible should be there ready to help to untangle any tangle which might arise and whose advice would be accepted in the spirit in which it was given.

Sub-section 2 says that the Minister shall appoint the members of the board. It seems to be inevitable and desirable that he should, but, assuming that a method of working is devised and that you can get the advisory board to co-operate with the board of directors and the company, for how long is the appointment to last? Is this the usual form in which provision is made in Bills for the appointment of members of boards? Is there any way in which the appointments can be limited or terminated? As it reads here—I read it merely as I read any other statement, that is, without knowing what legal implications may have grown up through custom—the advisory board shall consist of so many and they shall be appointed by the Minister. That might mean that they shall be appointed for life, and, once appointed, are as immovable as the Mountains of Mourne.

Mr. O'Reilly

I do not pretend to know a lot about this matter. I do not pretend, in fact, to know anything about it, but it struck me from glancing through the Bill that the real intention was to make provision for a censorship on the activities of the news agency, that the Government wished to have this board as a kind of adjunct to the whole structure of the agency, so that they might have a general supervision over its activities. It struck me that it was a sort of superstructure on the ordinary structure of the news agency.

Mr. MacBride

I think Senator O'Farrell has something in the last point he made and I will look into it between now and Report Stage. There is nothing in the fact that the advisory board happens to feature in the last part of the Bill. That is the Parliamentary draftsman's way of doing it. The advisory board is essentially an integral part of the whole scheme. My idea in having an advisory board was threefold. The first object was to have a body which would as far as possible be representative of all shades of opinion in the newspaper world, so as to make this a national news agency which would be above reproach or suspicion. Secondly, in so far as the news agency was capable of assisting our own newspapers, I wanted to provide some link whereby they could be consulted as to what help could be given to them in their work here and abroad. The third object was the obtaining of advice on technical matters and the creation of some formal method of contact with them.

As is always the case whenever you set up more than one body, the difficulty of divided control arises immediately and it is necessary to give full powers to one body and limited powers to another. Hence the provision in the section limiting the functions of the advisory board to giving advice, as and when requested by the managing director. The managing director will probably be chairman at the same time and will be the man most familiar with all the affairs of the news agency, and it was felt that the easiest thing to do was to give him the job of framing the questions and seeking advice. But there is one thing that we must be careful about, that we do not have a clash between the two bodies, and we, therefore, had to give full powers to one and limit the powers of the other to purely advisory functions.

In some countries news agencies have developed into co-operatives between the newspapers and the journalists for the provision of new services. That is the ideal position, of course, and I hope, possibly through the advisory board and through the work of the agency, that we might develop on those lines. I think that the advisory board is useful and is an addition to the ordinary State-sponsored company. It provides a form of link with the interests concerned and it ensures as far as possible harmonious working. It will be the job of the managing director to try to avail of the services of the advisory board as often as possible. In passing, I should like to say that I have had experience of the Advisory Committee on Cultural Relations during the past year in the Department of External Affairs and they have been of very considerable assistance. They are a voluntary body who have given their assistance freely and have worked very hard and they have been of considerable assistance and use to the Department. It would be a good thing if the system developed more and more. We do not know the assistance we could obtain in administration from people who are not civil servants on a voluntary basis. I think their assistance would often be very useful and would help to make the Civil Service machine run more smoothly and more humanly.

Question put and agreed to.

TITLE.

Question proposed: "That the Title be the Title of the Bill."

Mr. Hearne

Before you proceed to the Title, I should like to point out that in the absence of the Minister we discussed Section 8 sub-section (2) (b) and let it go. I assume that the remarks made here will be conveyed to the Minister, or do we repeat them?

Mr. M. Hayes

I will put down two amendments without prejudice for the next Stage, one to delete sub-section (2) paragraph (b) of Section 8 and the other to delete from the sub-section, line 40, "Dáil Éireann" and insert "The House of which he is a member". Then if the House wants to delete the paragraph it can or if it wishes to make this change it can do so, but I have not consulted the Minister.

Mr. MacBride

I should like to give an explanation of how that paragraph arose. An amendment was proposed in the other House which excluded completely members of either House of the Oireachtas from being directors, and this second position was a compromise, a condition upon which I accepted the amendment. It is always a difficult question but I felt a certain amount of sympathy with the amendment. On the other hand, I felt that circumstances might arise in which a member of the Oireachtas would obviously be the best person to appoint and the fact of his being a member of the Oireachtas should not preclude him from appointment. Dáil Éireann only was included. There was a suggestion of including both Houses but I felt that too many difficulties would be added by having a member of the Oireachtas debated in the two Houses. That would be too much of a barrier and I felt it would be a sufficient barrier if he were debated in one House. Senator Hayes's amendment would be acceptable, if the House wishes it, as far as I am concerned.

Mr. Hearne

I do not want to delay the House at this hour of the night. I only want to make clear that we are accepting the principle that it is desirable that the prior approval of this House should be obtained. I am not saying that I accept it entirely, but I certainly think that in the possible case of a Senator being appointed, the approval of the Seanad would in most cases be sufficient and that it would not be necessary to have his appointment discussed in Dáil Eireann. We can deal with this on the lines of the amendment.

Mr. O'Reilly

It is a matter of opinion, but as a result of the barrier to the appointment of elected representatives to such services, people who have any chance of such an appointment never seek election to local authorities. We here are creating the position which has been created with regard to local authorities. There are many people who would make valuable members of a local authority or Parliament——

An Cathaoirleach

Might I suggest that this matter be left over to the Report Stage?

Mr. O'Reilly

Fair enough, but I think it is an undesirable practice.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered: That the Report Stage be taken on Wednesday, 14th December, 1949.

The Seanad adjourned at 10.25 p.m. until Wednesday, 14th December, 1949.