An mbeadh sé iomarcach a iarraidh ar an Rúnaí Parlaiminte míniú a thabhart dúinn ar bhrí an Ailt seo? Cinnte sa bpríomhAcht is scéal an-mhór an scéal atá i gceist. Más dóigh leis go bhfuil sé iomarcach a iarraidh air an míniú sin a thabhairt, ní bheinn an-láidir á iarraidh air, ach thug mé faoi deara sa Dáil gur tugadh freagra gur foilsíodh brí "Convention" áirithe agus gur cuireadh amach é trí ordú. Ní cuimhin liom an t-ordú sin a fheiceál. Céard díreach a chiallaíos an tAlt?
Air Navigation and Transport Bill, 1949—Committee and Final Stages.
Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill."
The position is that the section is designed to bring the definition of "State aircraft" into line with the Chicago Convention of 1944. The Senator referred to the matter being raised in the Dáil and I then explained that the Chicago Convention of 1944 replaced the Paris Convention of 1919. The 1919 definition of State aircraft covered military aircraft and other aircraft used exclusively in the State on postal, customs or other services of that nature. The Chicago Convention was ratified by Ireland and Section 5 as set out here defines the expression "State aircraft". Under the 1936 and the 1946 Acts, it is possible that it would be held to apply only to aircraft of this State and the intention was that it should apply to aircraft of any country. Section 5 does not alter the position, but is put in in order to clarify it.
Tá go maith.
Captain Orpen
It seems to me that this section may be unduly restrictive. There is a reference to the three services, but there is the case of the President of the United States, who, I presume, uses a State aircraft. He is possibly included because he happens to be Commander-in-Chief, but I should like to know whether such important people who travel in aircraft provided by the State for their own personal use come within this definition or are they supposed to come within it?
I do not think so. "State aircraft" relates to aircraft used for military, customs and police services. I suppose the point which the Senator has brought forward could arise where a person such as the President of the United States would use his own aircraft, but on such occasions these people usually use official aircraft and in these cases they are almost invariably military aircraft.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 6 and 7 agreed to.
SECTION 8.
Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill."
Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Rúnaí Parlaiminte faoi fho-alt a 6. Cén chiall díreach atá leis? Mar shompla, má seoltar an litir do réir mar tá sé ráite, agus nach bhfuil aon duine ann a ghlacfas leis an litir, céard a tharlós annsin?
Could the Parliamentary Secretary say whether, in assessing the amount of compensation for acquired land, there is any allowance made for disturbance?
There is an allowance made for disturbance. The ordinary conditions governing compensation payable where land is acquired, either by a local authority or by a Department, apply. In other words, if agreement is not reached, it is referred to arbitration and the arbitrator is entitled to take disturbance into consideration.
Bhfuil aon rud le rá ag an Rúnaí Parlaiminte faoin gceist a chuir mé air?
The usual procedure is to follow the provision adopted in the case of the Electricity Supply Board. It is done here on the same basis.
Tugaim faoi deara annsin ar líne a (5):
"A notice under sub-section (4) of this section may be given to any person."
Sin é go dtabharfaí fógra dóibh. Muna sroicheann tú é ar an mbealach atá ráite anusin is feidir é a threorú do réir (a) agus (b). Muna sroicheann an litir an duine, céard a tharlaíos? Tá cead ag an Rúnaí Parlaiminte dul isteach dá mba rud é go bhfuair an duine an litir?
In sub-section (6), as the Senator will see, there is set out a provision for addressing the envelope where for any reason it cannot be addressed in the manner provided by sub-section (5). It is the same procedure as that which applies in the case of the Electricity Supply Act and the Transport Act.
Ach más rud é nach sroicheann an litir an té atá ainmnithe air, céard a dhéanas tú ina dhiaidh sin—dul ar aghaidh agus seilbh a thogáil ar an talamh?
A certain lapse of time is allowed and then the property is acquired.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 9 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 14.
I move amendment No. 1:—
In sub-section (2) (e), page 8, line 4, after the word "times" to add the words "Copies of the Order and map shall be made available for sale to interested parties on application to the Department of Industry and Commerce at a fee to be prescribed by the Minister."
Section 14 gives the Minister power to restrict buildings and other operations in particular areas adjoining aerodromes. We can all understand that this power is necessary. The order is to be made and a map prepared and then sub-section (2) of the section says, in paragraph (e):—
"(e) the map attached to the Order may be omitted from the Order in any publication thereof in pursuance of paragraph (a) of this sub-section, but copies of the Order with the map attached thereto shall be deposited in the offices of the Department of Industry and Commerce at Kildare Street, Dublin, and shall be there kept open for public inspection at all reasonable times."
We can well assume that under this particular provision many people will be affected. The Order prohibits the erection of any obstruction to navigation within a prescribed area. The persons interested and the owners of the land there, in order to clarify the position, will have to proceed to Kildare Street to the offices of the Department of Industry and Commerce. It would be little use for an ordinary farmer to go there to examine the map. He would have to take his solicitor or engineer with him. That may be all right for those living in the vicinity of Collinstown, but this goes further and affects those living in the vicinity of Shannon. It is unreasonable for the Minister to make an Order affecting so many people who would have to proceed to Kildare Street to examine the particular map.
My amendment suggests that any interested person, when the Order is published, may have a copy of the Order, together with a copy of the map, so that it may be inspected by his engineer or solicitor in order that they may know clearly what it intends to convey.
I think it is hardly necessary to accept this amendment. The section as it stands provides that the map shall be deposited in the Department and kept open for inspection at all reasonable times. That follows two precedents. One was in the 1927 Electricity Supply Act, where the board is obliged to keep open for inspection in its principal office or some other suitable place a map. It is also in the Tuberculosis (Establishment of Sanatoria) Act, 1945, in Section 9 (4), where a map or plan contained in an Order may be omitted from the copies of the Order and if so omitted a copy shall be deposited in the Custom House and there kept open for inspection at all reasonable times. I think that would clearly answer the case. The Seanad will appreciate that, if this amendment were accepted, the Department would be obliged to have copies printed. It might happen that they would not get sale for them and the expense involved in printing would be wasted. If a person buys a copy of Irish Oifigiúil, he will have the Order there and if he feels still interested, the map itself will be available in the Department.
Is maith liom an leasú seo agus ba mhaith liom go mór go mbeadh an Rúnaí Pairliminte toilteanach glacadh leis. Is cinnte go mbeadh sé mí-réasúnta a iarraidh ar an Roinn Tionscail agus Tráchtála cuid mhór de na léarscála seo a chur dá gclóbhualadh agus tar éis an costas ar fad b'fhéidir nach n-iarrfaí ceann amháin acu. Caithfidh an Roinn léarscáil a dhéanamh ar chaoi ar bith. Tá an-chuid gléasanna ar an margadh agus tá ceann acu ag an Roinn Sláinte Phoiblí. Ba cheart go mbeidís i ndon macsamhail a dhéanamh ar cúpla pingin. D'fhéadfadh an Rúnaí Pairliminte socrú éigint a dhéanamh leis an Roinn sin. D'fhéadfadh sé rud éigin mar seo a chur síos:
"Copies of the Order and map shall be made available for sale within seven days of the application therefor."
Is é an bhrí a bheadh leis sin nach mbeadh ar an Roinn freagra a chur ar an litir go ceann seacht lá, agus bheadh dóithin ama le dul go dtí an Roinn Sláinte Phoiblí agus a iarraidh orthu cóip a dhéanamh. Sílim go mbeadh muintir na tuaithe sásta leis sin. Níl fhios agam cé mhéid duine a bheadh ag lorg léarscál, ach mara mbeadh ach aon duine amháin, níl mé a rá go mbeadh éagóir ann ach go mbeadh sé as bealach air, teacht go Baile Átha Cliath go scrúdódh sé an léarscáil, agus b'fhéidir go mbeadh ar a dhlídóir nó a innealtóir teacht leis, agus do bheadh costas mór air. Dá mba dhóigh liom go mbeadh sé as bealach, nó go gcuirfeadh sé costas mí-réasúnta ar an Roinn, ní chuideoinn leis, ach ní dóigh liom go mbeadh sé mar sin.
Possibly the amendment goes a little too far, but I have a good deal of sympathy with what is aimed at in it. I take it from the Parliamentary Secretary that the Order will be available for sale and, therefore, that point is met and it comes down entirely to the question of the map. It would not be reasonable to ask the Department to have large numbers of the map printed and available for sale. However, it should be possible for an interested party to have a copy of the map supplied to him. If he sent to the Department and had to copy the map by ordinary methods, it would be very expensive. Everyone knows pretty well that an architect's office can get maps copied in 24 hours and it would meet the case entirely if the person interested could ask for, and have the right to obtain, a copy from the Department, on paying the cost. The cost might be about 10/-. He could not demand and take the map away and bring it to one of the offices to have a copy made, but it would be made by the Department or sent across the street where a copy could be made. A person interested might easily see a great advantage in having a map with him on the land and being able to see what exactly is stated in the map. It is not necessary to have the map available for sale, in the ordinary sense that anyone could buy it, but I think that an interested party should be able, as of right, to request that the copy be provided for him if he paid the charge. The charge would not be very excessive, perhaps from 10/- up to a maximum of £2, according to size.
I agree with Senator Ó Buachalla that it is easy to get maps copied. Senators will appreciate that this refers to specific small portions of land, and to have a whole lot of copies available to people who would not be interested would involved unjustifiable expense.
In view of what Senators say, I will undertake to have copies of the map made available to interested parties and also, in the case of land not adjacent to Dublin, a copy made available at the local Garda barracks. I think that that would meet the situation. To put an obligation on the Department to print copies would involve expense which would not be justified.
With modern methods, it is easy to produce copies, and I do not think it would be a hardship on the Department. Blueprints can be made in a few hours.
We can do that.
Is it necessary to put it in the Bill itself, or how is that information to be conveyed to the general public?
That can be done in the advertisements and public notices, where property is being acquired.
While the Parliamentary Secretary has gone part of the way to meet my suggestion, I still feel that the interested party should have the map at his disposal in his own home, so that if at any time he proposes to undertake the erection of any building or make other changes on his land he would know exactly the parts which are protected land under this Order. The Parliamentary Secretary is prepared now to make a copy of the map available at the local Civic Guard station, but that still means that someone must go there and examine it. It would be necessary for a qualified person, perhaps an engineer, to go there and make a copy.
I can give the assurance that any person interested will get a map—that is, any person interested in the sense of owner or occupier.
It is not necessary to put it in the Bill?
I do not think so.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Government amendment No. 2:—
In sub-section (6) (a), page 8, line 26, to insert "estate or" before "interest".
The usual phrase is "estate or interest" and in the original copy of the Bill the words "estate or" were omitted.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 14, as amended, agreed to.
Section 15 agreed to.
SECTION 16.
Government amendment No. 3:—
In sub-section (2), page 9, to delete paragraph (d) and substitute the following paragraph:—
(d) the regulation of traffic generally.
This is a drafting amendment. The original phrase was "(d) otherwise in relation to the regulation of traffic". It is regarded as grammatically more correct to say "the regulation of traffic generally".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 16, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 17 and 18 agreed to.
SECTION 19.
Government amendment No. 4:—
In sub-section (3), page 11, to delete "who" where it occurs in lines 18, 22 and 25.
This is a drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 19, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 20 to 25, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedules and Title agreed to.
Bill reported with three amendments.
Agreed to take the remaining stages to-day.
Bill, as amended, received for final consideration and passed.