Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Mar 1953

Vol. 41 No. 10

National Stud Bill, 1953—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Walsh)

The Irish National Stud Company, Limited, was set up by the Minister for Agriculture in April, 1946, to carry on, in the interests of the Irish bloodstock industry, the business of stud farming at the National Stud Farm, Tully, Kildare, or on any other land held by the company. An annual licence to use and occupy the National Stud Farm for this purpose has been granted to the company by the Minister each year since 1946.

Section 11 of the National Stud Act, 1945, under which the company was established, fixed the share capital of the company at £250,000, divided into shares of £1 each. The shares are allotted and issued to the Minister for Finance from time to time, according as capital is required by the board of directors. The share capital so far issued amounts to £190,880. This will shortly be increased to £194,130, leaving the amount of share capital unissued at £55,870.

The company have, from time to time since 1946, acquired a number of sires and valuable brood mares. But the stocking of the National Stud has not yet been completed and the board of directors have been emphasising for some years past that to ensure a profitable future for the company the purchase of a staying sire of the highest class would be needed. Although the company have had a notable success with their sire Royal Charger, this animal is a short-distance horse. Horses of the staying type are much needed in this country in order to develop the export trade in throughbred horses. Some additional brood mares of the highest class are also required to supplement the stock at the National Stud.

As the balance of the share capital unissued would be altogether inadequate for these aims, the board of directors have been pressing for some time past for a considerable increase in the authorised share capital of the company. It should be noted that prices of bloodstock rose sharply after the war.

Having carefully reviewed the financial requirements for the proper development of the National Stud, the Government approved the preparation of a Bill to amend the National Stud Act, 1945, so as to raise to £500,000 the limit of the share capital of the company. This is the main purpose of the Bill now before the House. A minor matter also dealt with is that, on the suggestion of the board of directors of the company, the Bill proposes to repeal Section 26 of the 1945 Act, which section has been found to be unsuitable in practice, and to replace it by the more flexible provision set out in Section 3 of the Bill. The enactment of this Bill is now urgently necessary following on the recent acquisition by the company of the very valuable horse, Tulyar.

For some years past, the directors of the Irish National Stud Company have been searching in Britain and on the Continent for a suitable staying sire of the highest class. As far back as July, 1951, the company were informed that if they purchased a suitable horse the price of which involved them in expenditure in excess of the company's unissued share capital, the authority of the Government would be sought for the preparation of a Bill to increase the share capital limit of the company. After further representations from the company, the authority of the Government was obtained on 1st July, 1952, for the preparation of a Bill to increase the share capital of the company. This was long before the purchase of Tulyar was thought of. I want to emphasise this in order to make clear that this is not a Bill about Tulyar and that, with or without that animal, this Bill would have been necessary in order to enable the company to proceed with their programme for properly stocking and developing the National Stud. It merely happens that Tulyar is the type of sire for which the directors have been looking for years past.

Horse-breeding is a long-established national industry in this country. The net value of the export trade in horses in 1951 exceeded £3,000,000. A substantial proportion of these exports go to the dollar areas. Exports to these areas in recent times averaged about £200,000 per annum.

The possibility of expanding our export trade in horses, and particularly to the dollar area, has been obvious for some time, but it is clear that, in order to expand that trade, horses of the highest standard must be produced. The Government had this in mind in setting up the National Stud Company in 1946. It is therefore the duty of that company to operate a policy designed to develop the industry from the national aspect rather than from the narrower aspect of an ordinary company or private individual.

For success in the breeding of thoroughbred stock, the essentials are: good soils, suitable climate, skill in management and good breeding stock. In our soil, climate and skill, we are second to no country in the world. But, in the fourth essential, i.e. breeding stock, our position can be substantially improved. There is, for instance, the acknowledged need for more extensive production of really high-class thoroughbreds of the longer distance or staying type. The National Stud Company is obviously the organisation best equipped to bring about this improvement. In the purchase of Tulyar, they have very definitely taken a step in the right direction.

Considered from the national point of view, the price the company has agreed to pay for Tulyar, although high, must be regarded as a perfectly sound investment. A stallion of this sort would, on the average, remain in service for a period of 12 years. The price of £250,000 to be paid for the horse spread over a period of 12 years would amount to approximately £20,000 per year. The purchase price of Tulyar when extended over the 12-year period is therefore a very small item as compared with the value of our export trade in horses, which, as already stated, is about £3,000,000 per year. In fact, the outlay on this horse actually amounts to only a very small fraction of the export value of our horses for 12 years at its present level. This purchase opens up great possibilities for the expansion of the industry.

Apart from the national aspect of the purchase of Tulyar by the National Stud Company, there are also, of course, special advantages for the stud itself. The earning value of Tulyar at stud is estimated at £16,000 per annum, and may possibly go as high as £20,000 for a period of 12 years. Also, the company has some 10 or 12 high-class brood mares, some of which will be mated to Tulyar. The female progeny of such matings will be extremely valuable stock to retain at Tully for stud purposes. Those not required for this purpose and the colts from such matings, when offered for sale, will undoubtedly fetch very high prices.

We have justly earned a very high international reputation for the quality of the race horses we produced. The produce of Irish studs have over the years won the most valuable races in many lands, including all the English classics and the most important races in the United States of America. In the latter country thoroughbred breeding has in recent times reached an extremely high level, due largely to the fact that breeders in that country purchased from the Aga Khan some years ago three horses, Blenheim, Mahmoud and Bahram. These three horses were bred at the Aga Khan's studs in County Kildare, and during their racing careers all three had won Epsom Derbys as well as other important races. In racecourse performance and pedigree, Tulyar is definitely a better horse than any of the three. For that reason, American breeders were anxious to secure Tulyar for their studs. The American interest in the horse leads us to anticipate a very keen demand from that country for his progeny when it comes on the market a few years hence.

It is also worthy of remark that stud farming has a high labour content; the output per acre is much above average. A review of some of our leading studs has shown that one man is employed for each 20 acres or so, whereas in farms of 200 acres and upwards over the country as a whole, one man is employed on each 42 acres. The review has further shown that the earnings of a stud farm through service fees and yearling sales amount to upwards of £30 per acre, as against £12 per acre in output over the country as a whole. In addition to the earnings from horses, there is, of course, on our large studs a considerable turnover from cattle feeding.

Also, stud farms purchase very large quantities of oats, hay and straw, and at good prices, from farmers in the surrounding districts. At some of our leading studs, the total amount paid for such items would run from £10,000-£20,000 per annum.

Racing, which is closely associated with breeding, is also a valuable source of employment. There are at the moment over 2,000 horses in training with a labour content of 1,200-1,400 men. In one large racing establishment, the wage bill amounts to upwards of £12,000 per annum, while the purchase of forage amounts to an almost equal sum.

The value of high-class horses for stud in recent years have been about £120,000-£160,000 each. The horse, Nasrullah, sold for export after having been used for some years for service here, was about the latter sum. The horse, The Phoenix, was syndicated at home at about the same sum. The Aga Khan's horse, Palestine, a good winner for distance not exceeding one mile, is syndicated here at £120,000. The only horse in Europe that approaches Tulyar to any extent in merit is the French horse Tantieme. This horse is now at stud in France at a fee of £600 which amounts to an earning capacity of £24,000 per annum. While his racecourse performances were really good, his pedigree falls entirely short of that of Tulyar.

I have already said that the enactment of this Bill is now urgent and I commend it to this House as a sound and necessary measure.

Mr. Baxter

There are not many minutes left until 6 o'clock but it will not take me many minutes to say what I have to say about this measure. I think the Minister is very unfortunate in regard to the timing of his Bill. All sorts of factors are operating in the minds of the people which influence them in their attitude to the Bill itself. The Minister said that with or without Tulyar the Bill would be necessary but I doubt that. I doubt whether we would get the Bill were it not for Tulyar. Frankly, I say to the Minister that it would have been better for him to have said it out straight. We have got the horse now and it has to be paid for. I think we have to face up to that situation.

We have a reputation in this country for breeding good horses. We have bred good horses but we cannot continue to maintain that reputation unless we have an infusion of new and good blood. This horse was very much criticised but he proved himself to be quite a remarkable animal. The Minister suggests that his progeny may be very valuable. That is just the difficulty. We all hope that his progeny will be very valuable. Anybody who knows anything about the science of breeding, genetics and the difficulties of trying to estimate what particular crosses will give must realise how difficult it is to prophesy in regard to the kind of progeny Tulyar may produce.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that this is only a small country. If this were a great nation which could spend countless millions on a bloodstock industry and if there were great opportunities, we would have the good, the not so very good and the middling. Our bloodstock constitutes a considerable factor in our total economy. It is much better for us not to try to feed too many horses any more than too many cows but when we feed horses we ought to feed good horses when we are looking for the good. We cannot get good horses if we do not endeavour to breed them. We have got to have the blood and the reputation.

I am forced to the conclusion that when this horse was on the market there were all sorts of suggestions but whether the Americans were serious or whether other people were serious about it, I do not know. Any of us who have been to a market realise how difficult it is to understand what is in the mind of the other fellow. We just do not know how far he is going to go. That is one of the difficulties which confronts everyone who tries to make a bargain. Presumably these people were in that position but I do not know. If the horse had gone to another country and if his progeny met progeny from this country, perhaps, people might say how foolish we were not to take the risk and make the investment. There are a dozen ways in which we might have invested the money here and got a greater return. That is another consideration which must weigh in taking a decision like this. If we lost the horse we do not know what we would have lost. We might have lost the chance of half a century.

Such a horse as this is not easily found and is very difficult to purchase. Wherever such a horse is he is regarded as being very valuable. I was at the stables of Monsieur Boussac with a group of farmers. The famous stallion Jezebel was there. When I asked the gentleman showing us around the place what the value of the animal was he told me in francs a sum which was equivalent to £250,000 sterling. That was in 1948. There have been very valuable horses in the world. They are accepted on their performances and those who purchase them can only hope that their progeny will produce the form which their sires displayed. That is something about which there is no guarantee. It is just a gamble. We are gambling. Any of us who would be frank about the matter must recognise that we are gambling with £250,000. The money expended may reproduce itself many times over. On the other hand it may not. We just do not know. I feel I am in the position that the Minister must have my authority to go on with this Bill. The horse is there and has to be paid for.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

Mr. O'Donnell

I will not have very much to say about this Bill beyond expressing doubt as to the wisdom of expending such an amount of money at the present time on a horse, even of the calibre of Tulyar. The Minister, of course, in introducing the Bill has stated that this Bill was not brought in because of the purchase of Tulyar, but Senator Baxter in his speech has effectively replied to that and pointed out that it is just the sum for which Tulyar was purchased.

The trouble about this purchase is that it is a matter of timing, because at the moment we have 90,000 unemployed and I wonder if it is a wise thing to make a gamble of this nature or not. That is one of the points which could be raised in one's mind. I would have thought, as an industrialist, that if the amount of money spent on the purchase of Tulyar was allowed to industrialists in the form of wear and tear on their machinery or depreciation in buildings, in the long run it might give better national results. I even thought that, in another sense, if the same endowment was given for the purchase of pedigree bulls for the improvement of our cattle stock it might possibly have been a better purchase than this horse. These are simply question marks in my mind and something upon which I am not competent to come to a definite decision.

I am rather worried about the amount of money being expended, because I read in an English newspaper that Tulyar is supposed to race again on two occasions in a short while. I am wondering if when that does happen and if the horse loses what effect it will have on his prestige value and his real value. I would like the Minister, when he is replying, to tell us if such a decision has been taken to race this horse. The Minister is one who makes an odd gamble, but in this case it is with a horse. We all talk about gambling in this case, but Tulyar is, in fact, the outstanding horse of his era.

It is very easy to condemn the National Stud for their purchase but, as one who does know a little bit about horse racing, there will never again be in this century an opportunity to purchase a horse of the calibre of Tulyar. Despite all the argument I can see against the purchase, I think it was a wise thing on the part of the National Stud to purchase Tulyar when he came on the market. If the National Stud had not bought him in order to improve horse breeding here somebody else would have purchased the animal and we would be lamenting it ever after. I would like to think that not alone was Tulyar being purchased to improve breeding but that another horse, Royal Charger, was also kept here for the same purpose.

I have heard that Royal Charger's purchase is being negotiated and that he might be sold, and I hope the Minister will prove my information correct or not in this matter. Any one of us who has been following racing knows that Royal Charger's progeny have been outstanding in the sale ring, as also have some of his colts on a few occasions. Therefore, if Royal Charger is to be sold I would be as much grieved about his sale as I would be elated by the purchase of Tulyar and the subsequent successes of his progeny.

The only thing I can say is to doubt the wisdom of the timing of the purchase. Of course, the trouble about it is that the horse was offered at this time and neither the Government nor the National Stud could have anticipated this offer. I presume that, if the National Stud had failed to take advantage of the horse and not have bought the horse, they would be blamed for it ever afterwards. Yet, if the horse does turn out to be a failure we will have people coming along and saying: "I told you so." But I think we should consider this thing as a gamble and take the long view. It is an extraordinary gamble but I am a gambler by nature and, therefore, approve of the purchase.

Mr. O'Higgins

Unlike the last speaker, I emphatically oppose this Bill and the purchase of Tulyar. There has been a great lot of talk recently about national debt and I think that this Bill could fairly be described even by the Minister himself as our "national bet." The Minister has made no secret that this whole business of the purchase of this racehorse is a gamble and has admitted such in the Dáil. He then visited the country and, apparently, found out what were the views of the ordinary people regarding this matter and what were the views of his own supporters regarding it. His attitude ever since then has been that we are not purchasing Tulyar but merely increasing the capital of the National Stud and it is merely coincidental that the increase in the capital of the National Stud is £250,000, which is the sum which is required to outbid the Americans for this racehorse. I think that this Bill is a bit of mere spring madness.

I do not know what reasonable excuse the Government can put up on the question which was raised here by Senator O'Donnell. If the transaction is considered merely from the point of view of the livestock industry and of the breeding of livestock in the country then the Minister is quite right. No one can devise any reasonable argument against him but you may just as well say that nobody could devise a reasonable argument against the Minister for Defence for coming into Parliament and asking for some millions of pounds for the purchase of an atom bomb to keep it in cold storage in the country. No one could argue against him about that. But unfortunately for the Minister for Agriculture he is a member of a Government and as such he cannot look on matters merely through the eyes of his own Department or a section of his Department. Much wider interests have to be considered and Senator O'Donnell spoke of some of them.

We have in this country at the moment something approaching 90,000 unemployed not one of whom is going to secure a day's work because of the spending of this £250,000 on the purchase of a racehorse. This is being done at the time when Government Ministers have been parading the country spreading gloom and doom and telling the people that we are being put to the pin of our collars to save the £ and to keep the £ on a par with the British £. They are going round the country telling the people and the country as a whole that we are living too well, spending too much and eating too much. Few of the people who are getting that kind of advice from Government Ministers that they are spending too much and living too well have sufficient money left in their pockets for luxury purposes or even to put on a small bet never mind thinking about the purchase of racehorses.

According to the Government, we are living too well and spending too much money and we cannot find the money to meet the arbitration awards for civil servants, or to put up worth-while relief schemes and we cannot find money to keep the housing drive in Dublin City and elsewhere going but yet out of the blue we are able to afford £250,000 for the purchase of a racehorse.

I think this whole thing is an indefensible business. I do not know what defence the Minister for Agriculture can make. I do know that he has made the case that this is a gamble. There was a time when the Minister, and I think I am not wronging him in this, liked to be considered as a simple farmer in charge of the agricultural destinies of this country. What has happened now is that he has got the name of being a big time gambler, a man who is gambling for stakes of £250,000 and for £250,000 that is not coming out of his pocket but for £250,000 which is going to come out of the pockets of people who are already, according to the Taoiseach, staggering under the weight of taxation which has been imposed by the present Government, and staggering in order to save money or to raise money when this Government decided to abolish the food subsidies under their budget of last year.

While that is being done—and done, according to the Government Ministers, because we are put to the pin of our collar to save the Irish £ and because according to the Ministers we are all spending too much and living too well—we are asked to provide this sum of £250,000 extra which is not available for the Civil Service or the Army or the police force or for any drainage or bog roads in the country or for use in relief schemes for unemployment. Yet that money is available for the purchase of a racehorse. I find it very hard to explain what I feel about a Government that can come solemnly before the two Houses of the Oireachtas with a proposal like this.

I am quite well aware of the fact that this Bill was dealt with in the Dáil and is going to be dealt with in the Seanad as a non-Party Bill. I think it is right that it should be dealt with in that way but I think it is right also that every Senator who has views on the matter should give those views. I am not hesitating to give my views to the Minister because I think this Bill is an outrageous Bill. I think the whole proposal is an outrageous one. I am quite certain on this that no matter who supported the Minister in the Dáil outside or inside his Party or no matter what support he can muster in this Seanad inside or outside his Party if you took a Gallup poll of any cross-section of the people outside Parliament, leaving out possibly those interested in the live stock breeding industry, there would be a very big majority there to condemn this proposal extravagant at any time, and to declare it a bit of lunacy at the present time.

If no credence is to be attached to the statements made by Government Ministers over the last year or 18 months, if the Minister for Agriculture is going to ask us to disregard completely as so much bosh and nonsense the talks of the Minister for Finance, the speeches of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the words of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, I am quite prepared to stand behind him and agree with him on that, that these speeches are nothing more than a considerable amount of nonsense regarding the financial and economic position of the country. Is it on that basis that the Minister for Agriculture is going to present this Bill to the Seanad? Is he going to repudiate the statements made by his Leader and his colleagues that we are on the fringe of financial ruin and bankruptey, that we are living too well and beyond our means and are spending too much.

Is this Bill to be taken as a repudiation of all that? Or is it to be taken merely as another example of the paradoxical policy pursued by this Government that within two days of the Taoiseach's telling the Dáil that the people of the country could not afford any more taxation, that they were staggering under the burden of taxation already there, the Minister for Agriculture decides that we have not had enough by a long way. He is going to see to it that this little island will outbid the American nation when it comes to the purchase of a racehorse.

If the Minister adopts the attitude that he adopted in the Dáil—that this is merely a gamble—I say it is a gamble which should not be taken; I say it is no time for gambling. The Minister and his colleagues should see to it that other, more urgent, matters should be dealt with first. When he has saved up £250,000, let him have his little flutter if he likes, but he should not have it at a time and in a situation which has been described by Government Ministers as being so serious, so far as the finances of the country are concerned. This is not the time for gambling when you have the appalling situation regarding employment and the depression in trade and the slump in building industries. While those conditions exist the Government should endeavour to find whatever money they can to relieve them. If they can find £250,000 for any of those problems, which are worthy of solution and ought to claim the first attention of the Government, the Minister will meet little or no opposition in coming to the Dáil and Seanad and asking for money to be invested in the purchase of sires to further the live-stock industry.

I do not know if the Minister himself said it, but a number of those who supported him in the Dáil on this measure claimed that this should be regarded as investment of a capital nature. If the Minister believes that, if he believes that we are now making in this expenditure of £250,000 an investment that is going to mean something to generations to come, why does he not borrow to raise the money? In particular, why does he not endeavour to raise the money from the people who will derive benefit if the Oireachtas passes this Bill?

Remember, only a very small section of the people will derive any benefit from this flutter of £250,000. To a very small extent, it may in certain areas affect the question of employment or unemployment, but a certain number of people interested in the industry may be able to derive advantage—and considerable advantage—by the spending of £250,000 in this way. They are only a very small section of the people, but in the main, I think I am correct in saying, they are probably a very wealthy section. Why does not the Minister approach them and see if he can get them to advance the money or to form some kind of syndicate to advance the sum of £250,000 to purchase the racehorse rather than call on the taxpayers to foot the bill—taxpayers who, the Taoiseach says, are staggering under the weight of taxation already imposed?

I think that is a reasonable question to put to the Minister and I think the Minister would be acting as a reasonable man if he endeavoured to raise the money in that way. It may be that he has made the endeavour. I am not suggesting that he was so precipitate as to rush into the Dáil and, in order to outdo the Americans, to look for this £250,000, without making some effort to see if the money could be raised elsewhere. Very probably he did make that effort. If he did, then we are faced with the position that, having made the effort to get the people who are going to derive benefit from the deal to put up the money, he was turned down by them. Either they told him: "You will have to tax the people to raise the money," or else the Minister has not made the effort at all. If he has not, then he has acted very foolishly. I will oppose this Bill at every stage.

Mr. Loughman

The three speakers who have already spoken have concentrated on the gamble of purchasing his animal. If the State had not purchased the animal when it was available to us, the gamble would have been greater and if the State refused to purchase and the animal went to the United States and became the great success in that country that we believe it will here, the grousing we would hear from people who like horses would be greater than anything we have heard so far.

I am convinced that Senator O'Higgins has no knowledge of the ordinary Irish people or of what they think of horses. I have met more of the ordinary people than Senator O'Higgins did since the Tulyar Bill was introduced and I challenge anyone to name one solitary individual, an acquaintance of mine, in the rural areas, who condemned the Government for this purchase. In fact, the great majority, while agreeing that the sum was a colossal one but acknowledging that the horse was worth the money—for Americans do not pay £250,000 for nothing—were all fully convinced that the Government were fully justified in spending the money on the animal. If the animal had been let out of the country they would be condemned by people whom we are now told are so much in opposition to its purchase. I read and listened to some of the speeches made on this Bill in the other House. I was rather amused by the speech of the Deputy who led for the Opposition but who, in his first speech at any rate, said that he did not know anything of horses. Later on, when he had almost established a precedent by talking the thing out in its later stage, he seemed to have gathered some knowledge about them. But I was amused that, in the beginning, his speech was based on the grounds that he did not know anything about horses.

It is a grand thing that the people of this country have had the opportunity of purchasing what is, as far as this country is concerned, the greatest animal the world has known. We know that we have the National Stud Company and that it is composed of people competent to judge the value of this animal and not only that but its value to this country and they in their wisdom decided it should be bought. Who are we here—a great number of us never sat on a horse—to decide that these people are talking through their hats and depriving the working man, that so many are shedding crocodile tears over, of work? If one were to tot up the amount of money needed to remedy all the evils that Senators O'Donnell, O'Higgins and even Baxter have talked of, it is not £250,000 but £250,000,000 that would be needed.

This brings to my mind the time I brought some friends into Trinity College to see the Book of Kells. I asked the attendant what money value they set on that particular book. He was dramatic and took me to the window and pointing to the courtyard said that if it were filled with gold it would not buy the book—it was priceless. Supposing he could have got £250,000 for it and supposing that it were allowed out of the country—it would not be allowed out, of course—it means we are keeping here when so many people are hungry something which is bringing in nothing in cash, but which is worth that sum of money to us. In the National Gallery, also, we have many valuable pictures hanging on the walls. They are not bringing in any money, either. If we measure everything like that, where will it land us?

The bloodstock industry is one of our greatest assets. Although the cattle industry is more valuable, it will be a calamity when the bloodstock industry passes out in Ireland. I had an experience in Strasbourg—Senator Hearne will bear me out in this—during our visit some months ago. The secretary to the German delegation called at our office, making inquiries about a different question. Amongst other things he said he was a great admirer of the Irish horse and in my conversation with him I found he knew more about Irish horses than he knew about Ireland. In fact, the only things firmly in his mind as far as Ireland was concerned were one man and the Irish horse. If I could judge by his attitude to the Irish horse, I rather think that the faith they have in the Irish horse and the knowledge they have of it there is worth a great deal more to us than the £250,000 there is so much weeping about. We had a publication called The Irish Horse, and we had distributed all the copies of it, but we told this man we would send him a copy. Later on, the officials of the Department sent that copy to him. The Department has sent me a copy of the letter this particular man wrote, acknowledging that book. I wish Senator O'Higgins could see that letter—it would give him some idea of the value of the Irish horse to this country —and I am not talking about the value in pounds, shillings and pence.

I remember the time, when we were all a lot younger, the late Dinny Gorey paid £600 for a greyhound, Harmonica. People thought he was cracked, as that was a fabulous sum to spend some 20 or 30 years ago. I was talking to a person who has for that length of time been judging coursing throughout the country and he assured me that the purchase of that dog and two others, Dick the Liar and Holga, made the foundation of the greyhound industry, and that you could hardly purchase a dog of any high standard of quality in Ireland, England or Scotland but you would find traces of these animals in him. Dinny Gorey's investment, though it seemed foolish at the time, was worth millions of pounds to this country since then. I have read that the sale of our bloodstock last year amounted to £3,000,000, so £250,000 is a small sum by way of investment.

One of the things I have wanted to hear in this debate is someone saying the animal is not worth that money, that we are paying it for an animal that could be bought for less, or that the animal is worth only £100,000; but I have heard it stated several times here that the animal is actually worth the money. It is a very sorry day when our people become so poor that we cannot afford to buy the best in the world while it is in our own country and keep it and sell the progeny. To make a correction, may I say that the price paid for Harmonica was £1,000 and for Holga £600?

When people spend money on something which may not prove successful they are always liable to be condemned. Something may happen to Tulyar—we hope nothing will—or the progeny may not be up to his standard, but all the odds are in favour of the belief that it will be.

Mr. O'Higgins

What are the odds?

Mr. Loughman

In my opinion, 90 or 100 to 1, that the progeny of Tulyar will be worth the money every time. I would be perfectly happy if the progeny carry on as he carried on during the time he was racing. Some Senator asked what would happen if Tulyar raced again and was beaten. He also said that only a very small section have a real interest in this animal. The Senator would be amazed if he knew the tremendous number who are most interested. I grant that only a very small number could afford to put in the big sums to a syndicate such as he talks of to buy it. The number interested in his purchase is far greater than he imagines; the number inclined towards buying the animal is far greater than he thinks. Practically everyone in rural Ireland has a bet on a horse and I think it is delightful that they do. I have never condemned it, though I do not do much myself. Just as the National Anthem says that we are, "children of a fighting race", I like to think we are children of a gambling race, too, because there is nothing really wrong in gambling. If a man wishes to back his fancy, why not? If a Gallup poll were taken, Senator O'Higgins would get the surprise of his life.

Mr. O'Higgins

"Gallop" is the operative word.

Mr. Loughman

Some of the papers should attempt it and see what happens. A lot of us were chatting about this one night, and I said to one man: "Supposing the horse ran again, what would you do?" He said: "I would be either a millionaire or I would not have a shirt on my back." I am delighted the Government had sufficient initiative to provide the means whereby this animal may be purchased, when the National Stud Board decided it was in the interests of Irish bloodstock that he should be purchased. I sincerely hope the animal will prove a tremendous success. It is always a great pleasure to me that we can keep in this country the best of any particular line, animal or otherwise, that is available. I very heartily support the Minister's introduction of the Bill, and I hope the purchase will be 100 per cent. worth while.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I oppose this Bill. I have considered the matter very carefully and, if I have any bias in the matter at all, it is in favour of the National Stud Company. That is a company to which the country, and the bloodstock industry in particular, owes a great debt. It is a company which has been run with considerable success since its formation. Practically every member of the board of that company is an expert in the bloodstock breeding business. These are my views as to that concern, and we might be careful in the course of this debate to see that we do not in any way hurt the reputation of that company, although I should think it would be difficult to do so.

Senator Loughman is looking for the man who says that £250,000 is too much to pay for this horse. I accept his challenge.

Mr. Loughman

The question I put was: was the horse worth £250,000?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

As I understood him, the Senator wanted to meet the man who would say that the horse was not worth £250,000.

Mr. Loughman

That is right.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I am he. The horse is the greatest horse in the world. There was not the like of Tulyar as a three year old and if he is raced as a four year old, I have not got the slightest fear that there will be anything to beat him. Nevertheless, he is not worth £250,000. Tulyar's highest value in my view, is £175,000.

Mr. Quirke

How do you know?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

The company is paying too much, at least £75,000 too much, for the horse. It is nonsense to think that, because the Minister has brought in a Bill seeking £250,000, we should say the horse is worth £250,000. It is nonsense to say that the Aga Khan could get the same price from Americans. I assert that His Lordship, His Reverence or His Imperial Highness would not sell him to America and that he has a very good reason for not doing so. I will tell the House why he would not sell him to America. The Aga Khan, the greatest bloodstock breeder in the world, is very concerned to see that Tulyar will be available for some of his mares for breeding purposes. It will be very convenient for the Aga Khan to have Tulyar standing in Ireland or in England. It will not cost him, if the sire stands here or in England, £1,000 return fare to the States for a mare and it will not cost him a fee of £2,000 for the services of Tulyar, as would be the fee if he stood in the States. The fee here may be £500 or £600. The vendor of this animal would in no circumstances send him to America for the reasons I have mentioned.

It is nonsense for anybody to tell me that we were right in paying this money for this horse simply because we should not allow him to go to America. In no circumstances, would the vendor send him to the States. He is being sold here (1) because the vendor thinks he is getting an exceedingly good price, and (2) because he will be very convenient to serve his mares here. The vendor was so keen about this, I understand, that he provided, or at any rate suggested that he should get four nominations per year. I fully approve of that portion of the agreement. I fully approve that, in his first few years, the horse should serve only high-class mares, so that his first year's progeny, we may expect, will be first-class and we may thereby get a good name for the horse. I hope I have made it quite clear that there was not the slightest chance of his emigrating.

The Minister put forward as one of the reasons why we should purchase this animal the fact that it would turn over a very considerable sum of money for us in the sale—not in service fees only—of yearlings which he would produce. We in this country will get practically no money for the yearlings which Tulyar will produce, and for this reason. Tulyar, in his first year, will serve about 20 mares and, in subsequent years, 40. We will then have 15 to 18 foals in the first year and 30 to 35 in the years after, assuming that everything goes well and the horse is good. In the main, the mares that will be served by Tulyar will be English mares.

Mr. Quirke

Why? Who said so?

Mr. Walsh

Not at all.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I want the Minister to name for me 20 mares from this country who will go to Tulyar in the first year. I suggest to the Minister that at least 75 per cent. of the first 20 mares will be mares from England. We shall get in respect of these mares the service fees. We will not get, as the Minister said elsewhere, the value of the yearling that is realised at the sale. We will get merely the service fees. The horse will serve some Irish mares, I have no doubt, but I want to correct what the Minister said elsewhere, that all the yearlings of Tulyar would be sold from Irish mares at Ballsbridge, Doncaster or Newmarket sales. That, I say, is not correct, and the Minister is misinformed as to that. In the main, our profit from Tulyar will be the service fees that will be charged and the Minister has put that forward as a reason for our purchasing the horse. If I am right in what I say, it is a very bad reason and in fact no reason at all.

Senator Loughman again said that everywhere he goes the people in the country are saying: "Bless us, is that not great news? Tulyar is for Ireland."

Mr. Loughman

The people who talk about it at all.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I want to say that that is the purest ‘boloney' and the greatest nonsense imaginable. The Senator would not say that at a chapelgate meeting——

Mr. Loughman

I certainly would, amongst the people who like horses.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

——because he would be laughed to scorn. I yield to no man in my regard for horses, and I want to say, if I must, that I know a good deal more about horse-breeding than a number of people here, and I know at least as much as anybody else here about racing and bloodstock. Senator Loughman is talking the greatest balderdash when he says the people are going around welcoming him to Clonmel and district and saying: "Thank goodness, you got the Bill through the Dáil. Go up and get it through the Seanad now." That is the greatest nonsense. The people of this country are quite clear in their view, and their view is: "What the heck are they buying Tulyar for at that figure?" That is the view of the ordinary man in the street. Let me say this also: If Tulyar were the real value he is supposed to be, £250,000, is it not good sense to ask why the bloodstock breeders of England, whom we would expect would have the money, would not say: "Listen. He is a gift at this figure" and get the money straight away and pay it?

Mr. Loughman

Maybe they tried. We do not know.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

If they tried we would be paying more than £250,000. They did not try.

Mr. Loughman

These are all "ifs".

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I am quite certain that they did not try.

Mr. Hearne

Any advance on £175,000?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I have expressed my view as to the value of the horse. I think he is not worth more than £175,000.

Mr. Yeats

Why would the English pay £250,000?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

They did not.

Mr. Yeats

The Senator said that if they tried to buy him we would have to pay more than £250,000.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

An indication that they did not bid more than £250,000 was that if they had done so we would have to pay more than that figure.

Mr. Colgan

Will the Senator explain how he arrived at the figure of £175,000?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I will do no such thing for the Senator. Senator Colgan told us here yesterday that he did not read what he got from the Seanad office. If he were then telling the truth, why would he pay the slightest attention to what figures I might give?

Mr. Hearne

Tulyar had a bad time in the Dáil, but the lawyers are after him now. That is a new one.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

We are in no difficulty about this Bill. There is no difficulty about that. We do not have to pass this Bill. The horse is not sold yet. Apparently there is some kind of a verbal agreement that the stud will give the Aga Khan the price when the Bill goes through. We are not committed to spending the money.

Mr. Loughman

It is a pretty fair gamble that the money will be paid.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should endeavour to get back to the Bill.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

We are not obliged to pass this Bill because there has not been a commitment by the National Stud. They have not committed themselves until the way is cleared to get the money, and they cannot get the money until we pass this Bill. The National Stud is a concern of which we should be very proud. However, I think that, in paying this money, they are paying too much. I think that the Government, having regard to all the complaints they have made about the difficulty of getting money, are altogether wrong in agreeing to promote this Bill to get the money.

The main reason why we require a horse of the calibre, standing and proved performance of Tulyar is because the stud has not a horse at the moment that is likely to get horses that will win races beyond six furlongs. Two of our best horses to-day are Preciptic and Royal Charger. Royal Charger has got horses which have won mile races but no horse which has won any good class of a mile race. Preciptic may get such horses. The main reason for buying Tulyar is to get a horse that would be reasonably certain to produce horses that would stay longer than a mile. In Tulyar there is such a horse. If the stud buys Tulyar, I do not think there is any reason why they should retain Royal Charger. They will be overloading the stud so to speak. If they buy Tulyar they should dispose of Royal Charger for the reason that Tulyar will take his place.

The principal idea in forming the National Stud was to enable the less well-off man who was interested in bloodstock to send his mares to high-class horses. That was the original idea, as well as to provide generally for the bloodstock industry and improve it. It was never thought that the stud would charge the man in the smaller way with the relatively good mare the fee they would charge the better off man. In other words, the company was to help the small breeders. So far as I know, no line has been drawn between the breeder who is well off and the breeder who is not so well off. Every breeder has to pay whatever the fee was. Some reduction in fees should be made to enable the smaller man to send good class mares to high-class horses.

In regard to the racing of Tulyar, I have no doubt that the stud would be making a great mistake not to run this horse again. Suppose they ran him and he is beaten. That is all right and no harm will be done. Suppose he is beaten in two races. In that event he might not be regarded as so valuable as he was, but his reputation has been made. I believe the horse as a four-year-old will not and cannot be beaten. I believe that last year the horse improved all the time in all his races. Every time he won he showed he was a better horse. If Tulyar is bought he should be raced.

I am against the Bill, and I am prejudiced in the matter but prejudiced in favour of the National Stud. I have an extremely high regard for it. It is a wonderful concern, and everybody connected with it knows a great deal about bloodstock breeding, and a number of them know more about bloodstock breeding than anybody else in this country. I think they are not wise in paying this amount for the horse. I am not concerned with the gamble. I know there is a risk, but the same risk would be there if you expended £150,000. I think the stud is not wise to purchase the horse, and the Government at £250,000 has a great cheek to introduce a Bill to provide money for a racehorse when they cannot provide money for more important and pressing matters.

Mr. Quirke

I must say that I was never more amazed in my life than I was to hear the speech made by Senator O'Reilly. As it happened, I was at a point-to-point meeting to-day. The committee arranged to have 2,000 cards printed. They were sold before I got there. There must have been about 5,000 people there. Quite naturally one could not go to a place like that without hearing a funny story about Tulyar, but I did not hear anybody speak against the purchase of the horse. I met a prominent man in the racing world, a man who was largely responsible for the training of that wonderful horse, Tetrach. He invited me to a cup of tea after the meeting, but I told him I could not accept the invitation as I had to go back to the Seanad where there would be a discussion on Tulyar.

Professor Hayes

The Senator was not coming back; he was coming.

Mr. Quirke

The man said we would have one solid supporter, Senator O'Reilly, who had discussed the whole matter with him. Senator O'Reilly told him that he was 100 per cent. in favour of Tulyar. I will not mention the man's name.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

He did not tell you any such thing. You got more than tea at his house.

Mr. Quirke

If the Senator presses me hard enough I will mention the man's name.

Professor Hayes

Another funny story about Tulyar.

Mr. Quirke

It just shows what politics can do to people, particularly legal gentlemen. I thought that all the nonsense was finished when the matter of Tulyar was discussed in the Dáil, but apparently we are only starting. In any case, I was amazed to hear the speeches made by Senator O'Higgins and Senator O'Reilly, and the further these speeches went on the more amazing they became. I do not mind anyone standing up and saying that he is against the purchase of Tulyar at the price he is supposed to cost, but when Senator O'Reilly stands up and says that he does not believe the horse is worth £250,000, but is worth £175,000, it is just complete nonsense. The man who advises the Senator, or at least the man who tells me he advises him, says the horse was a gift at the price, and then goes on and talks about the various prices made for Irish horses over the years. I am largely going on his advice, and if I wanted advice at any time about racing, I would never have any hesitation in going to that same man and asking his opinion.

I am not influenced by politics, and, standing up here, I speak my own mind. In case I may be accused of having some connection with the Racing Board, I would like to say here and now that I am a representative of the Bloodstock Breeders' and Horse Owners' Association, and also a member of the Racing Board. Further, in case anybody might make a mistake, they are both voluntary jobs for which I am getting no money.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

And you do good work.

Mr. Quirke

Yes, I do good work: maybe my best is not good enough, but I give my best. With regard to the statements made, I am simply amazed. I hope, before we finish with the Bill, that at least some people will stand up on the other side and make some sort of sensible statement. I see one man who, at least, knows as much about the matter as anyone who has yet spoken about thoroughbreds and racehorses, and, while I am not a great gambler, I will back him at two to one that he will be in favour of the Bill, and that is Senator McGee.

I do not think it is right that we should discuss a Bill of this kind in this House, and I do not think it should have been discussed in the other House, without someone paying a tribute to the late Paddy Ruttledge. I am right in saying that Mr. Ruttledge was a man who was consulted when the National Stud was set up and was placed on that board. While he was on that board his advice and experience were invaluable to the National Stud and, because of his advice and experience, the National Stud has become the success it is to-day. Possibly as a result of his advice, the National Stud came along with the idea that one of the most important, things, if not the most important, it could do was to get a horse of the type of Tulyar.

A lot of nonsense has been talked, as has been pointed out already, about this horse in the Dáil. Senator Loughman said he would like to meet somebody opposed to the purchase of Tulyar, but I think it would take a long time knocking around the country —and Senator Loughman is in touch with rural Ireland as much as anyone—to do so. If you wanted to find anyone in a hurry who was opposed to the purchase you would have to go into the Dáil and, apparently, we can find now two in the Seanad. Senator Loughman pointed out the effect that the purchase of Harmonica by the late Denis Gorey had on the greyhound industry of this country. I was associated with the greyhound industry then, but I had nothing to do with it for the last 25 years. I remember, however, that when Mr. Gorey bought the dog for £1,000 there was a lot of talk, but he was correct. Of course, £1,000 then was like £10,000 now. Any of the outstanding greyhounds being sold at the present time can trace back their breeding to Harmonica.

We should take an example from things of this kind and the result of breeding from outstanding horses in the past, rather than take the views of Senators O'Reilly and O'Higgins that the Minister should have gone around and got some individual to buy a horse at that price. When you get into that kind of financial figure it is only on a long-term policy that a person can buy that type of horse, and I believe that the National Stud would be neglecting its duty if it allowed the horse to go to any other country in the world. If he was allowed to go, we would have more people standing up criticising the National Stud for letting him go out of the country than there are criticising his being kept here.

It is extraordinary that we should have people in this and the other House criticising directly and indirectly members of the National Stud who are not here to defend themselves. I do not think that they need my or anybody else's help because their record since they took up office will stand more in their favour. One would think that they had no interest whatever in this country and were not suitable for their jobs, if you were to listen to the talk and criticisms we have heard. Since they have taken over their jobs as Directors of the Stud, they have done most creditable work and, as a result of their efforts the National Stud is on a sound financial footing to-day as a business proposition, apart from anything else.

Senator O'Higgins launched what I might call an indirect attack on the Minister.

Mr. O'Higgins

A direct attack, please. It was intended as a direct attack.

Mr. Quirke

I do not mind a man launching a direct attack on anybody, but I do not like this indirect attack and attack by innuendo. The Senator said that some time ago the Minister was regarded as a simple farmer and now he is a big-time gambler. The Minister is no stranger in any part of this country and has been in a prominent position in this country for a long number of years. He is well known in his constituency, and far outside it, as a simple and first-class farmer, and also as a man who has taken a prominent part in sporting circles as well as the horse breeding industry. We have in the position of Minister a man who has taken an interest in the horse breeding industry for a long number of years and who, as long as he is in that position, would look favourably upon any proposition which will arise as far as the horse breeding industry is concerned.

Senator O'Reilly would be prepared if he were Minister for Agriculture to give £175,000 for Tulyar, but not £250,000. I would like to know on what basis he is judging that Tulyar is worth £175,000.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

On the next stage I will give these figures.

Mr. Quirke

That would be very interesting. I will be here for the next stage of the Bill.

Mr. O'Higgins

Not at a point-to-point.

Mr. Quirke

It would be interesting for me and a lot of other people to know how an ordinary individual could differentiate between one price and another. With regard to the Aga Khan, it would seem proper to attack him in connection with this purchase.

Professor Hayes

Surely not.

Mr. Quirke

It was suggested there were various reasons why he would not sell the horse to any other country but this, and it was suggested he would get more money here than from anywhere else.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

It was very convenient.

Mr. Quirke

A few thousand pounds here or there does not mean much to the Aga Khan.

Mr. O'Higgins

Nor, apparently, to us.

Mr. Quirke

As far as the Aga Khan having to send certain mares to Tulyar is concerned, all I can say is that there are a lot of stallion owners in this country, owners of first class stallions who, I think, will be very glad to give three or four nominations to the Aga Khan for the best mares in his stud farm. The best thing which could happen in regard to a young sire is that in the initial years of his career he would get the highest possible quality of mares, and on that account I am simply delighted to find that in the first year, at least, Tulyar can hope to get four mares brought to him, probably the best mares in the Aga Khan's stable.

Senator O'Higgins said that the majority of the people in this country were against the purchase of Tulyar. I do not believe that for one moment. I believe that the average person in this country—the overwhelming majority of the people in this country —are interested in sport and in the fact that Irish racehorses have been carrying the Irish flag to victory in various racecourses throughout the world. In the Dáil we had Deputy Dunne declaring that the Minister for Agriculture had tried to wrap the green flag round Tulyar. I believe that the average citizen of this country will be delighted in the years to come to see the Tricolour, and not the green flag, wrapped around the progeny of Tulyar in the racecourses of the world.

I do not know how many people in this country have gone abroad to attend race meetings, but I remember the first year when I attended the Grand National at Liverpool and saw the Tricolour flying from the grandstand. What a wonderful thing I thought that was. Then I saw the Tricolour wrapped round the winner of the Grand National and I was really delighted. I had the same feeling when I saw that happen in other high-class race meetings in England and other countries. I thought that was a grand thing, and I hope the Minister will still be here when the progeny of Tulyar are winning the classic races of England and of the other countries in the world.

There are a number of other things which I propose to go into later and, with the permission of the House, I propose to read a portion of my speech.

When the leading Opposition Party in the Dáil humanly removed its Whips from Tulyar, the more enlightened members of that Party heartily supported the National Stud Bill. On the other hand, the purpose of the measure appears to have given nightmares to some other members of the House. It is difficult to know how much of this opposition was genuine and how much of it was conditioned by Party discipline.

The Racing Board Bill had the support generally of the Deputies now supporting Tulyar and it was opposed by practically the same gentlemen who object to this Bill. I must say that it is a little bit of a puzzle to figure that out. It is difficult to know just what would have happened with all these divisions if the Coalition happened to be there when the purchase of Tulyar came up. I am afraid what would have happened would have been that this country would have lost Tulyar.

Time has proved the Opposition completely wrong, as the organisation and finance of racing here since the Racing Board commenced to operate are the admiration and envy of racegoers and racing authorities all over the world. The well-endowed prizes for classic and semi-classic events have encouraged owners to retain and race high-class fillies here and some of these will, I hope, later prove fitting mates for Tulyar.

By virtue of their powers under the National Stud Act, the Government appointed five experts to administer its provisions, including the purchase of bloodstock to improve breeding. In their purchases up to the present they have been amply justified by the results they have achieved. They are not only the best—they are the only people to judge what animals should or should not be introduced into the stud.

The performance of the progeny of Tulyar's matings will not confirm or confound the wisdom of his purchase for some years to come. On the horse's record on the race track and on his blood lines, there is every probability of resulting benefits to Irish racing and breeding.

So far as the horse itself is concerned, he is the very type of horse that the National Stud Board have been looking for since its formation. It is unfortunate, in view of the notice appearing in this evening's papers that there is a proposal to sell Royal Charger, that we should have people standing up in this House attempting to run down that particular horse.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I did not do that.

Mr. Quirke

I do not know who made the statements, but statements were made here which were injurious so far as Royal Charger is concerned. I think that Royal Charger has more than justified the people who purchased him and to-day as far as his record at stud goes he is a match for any other sire. At the moment there are more than two or three parties interested in competing for the purchase of Royal Charger from the National Stud. I believe that if he is sold his value will be comparable with the stud value of the horse we are now discussing— Tulyar. I am not saying that he is as good a horse as Tulyar, which is admittedly the greatest horse in the world to-day, but I think that Royal Charger has increased in popularity over the past couple of years and that when the history of racing for 1952 and 1953 comes to be written, Royal Charger will be very high up in the supply of bloodstock winners.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I did not say anything deprecatory about Royal Charger. What I did say was that he will not get a horse over a mile but up to a mile and that is why we want Tulyar.

Mr. Quirke

We can leave it to the people who are going to buy to say that, but we should not say it here.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

But I know it.

Mr. Quirke

Why did not the Minister put Senator O'Reilly on the National Stud Board when it was established or call him in for consultation?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

If the present Minister had called me in he would not be paying £250,000 now.

Mr. O'Donnell

I was the first to mention Royal Charger and I did not do it in any deprecatory tone.

Mr. Quirke

The two Senators who have just spoken gave me a number of tips within the last month and I never backed a winner as a result of their tips. It is more than surprising to find in this and the other House people who refused to have a bet on a horse that has an unbeaten record and which was backed by millions of people all over the world and which has proved his worth.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I never told you to put £250,000 on a horse at any rate.

Mr. Quirke

That is all right. The same Senator came to me last week and said: "You have an auction tomorrow," and I said: "I have.""What do you think it will make?" he said to me. I said: "I do not know, I am not much good at that sort of thing, but I would put it at about £45,000." He said: "You are crazy. It is worth no more than £25,000." But it made £65,000. I just cannot understand Senator O'Reilly. If a man backs tips like that he cannot expect to be taken very seriously again.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

That conversation is purely imaginary.

Mr. Quirke

Many words have been spoken and written about the purchase of Tulyar. In most cases, however, his purchase price has been assessed solely against his racing and stud potential. To regard the question in this narrow fashion is to be like the owner of a workshop who assesses the value of the individual cogs in his machines solely by the weight of metal each cog contains.

Before trying to arrive at a value of this new cog which has been acquired for our bloodstock machine, let us pause for a moment to take a look at the machine itself, to study its workings and its purpose, to judge whether it needed a new cog and to assess to what extent the output of the machine can be improved by its acquisition.

In the same way that a youth will automatically direct his life into those channels in which he can make the best use of the natural gifts which God gave him, so do the people of a country adapt their home industries to exploit to the full the natural resources of their land.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

Might I ask who is the author of this masterpiece?

Mr. Quirke

I am the author. He is getting a bit jealous and is afraid that this may have been written by the man he was in consultation with. But while that man might be prepared to talk to you at a race meeting, you will not get him sitting down to write a speech.

Mr. Hearne

Are we sure there is such a person?

Mr. Quirke

Yes, and if you force me, I will disclose his name—and he may be very glad of it.

England has developed her coal industry, Southern France her vineyards, Persia her oil wells, America her steel. In Ireland we have no natural wealth of coal, oil, or iron ore lying beneath our fields (or for that matter, sun to warm the grape above them), but what we have been blessed with, and blessed with in more generous measure than most other countries in the world, is bone-building, strength-giving, limestone land, the very essence of animal growth.

Mr. O'Higgins

If the Senator gives his manuscript to the reporter, it can be taken as read.

Mr. Quirke

It is as important to our country that this inherent wealth be used to the best possible advantage as it is to England that every possible ounce of coal should be mined, or to Persia that every gallon of oil should flow from her wells.

Horse breeding has naturally played an important part in the lives of our people for many a year, but it is only in recent times that our Government has got around to harnessing this natural power to enable it to play its full part in helping the national economy. Senators who have studied the history of this country will remember that there was a time when the owner of a horse was likely to have it acquired if it was worth anything over the figure of £5. Unfortunately, the inferiority complex created as a result of those laws still lingers and certain elements in this country still believe that there is no reason why the Irish people and the National Stud, which in this instance represents the Irish people, should own a horse like Tulyar.

Apparently some people believe that if this country is lucky enough to breed a horse of that type it should be put on the open market and exported to a foreign country and the people of that country should get the benefit of that particular horse rather than the people of the country in which it was bred. I do not agree with that view. I am not, I think, cursed with that inferiority complex and I believe, as I have always believed, that nothing is too good for this country. The best horses in the world were bred here, and as far as the Government or the National Stud in this country can do they should ensure that in the years to come there will be no chance that they will be lost. In that way they will ensure the continuation of first-class horse-breeding in this country.

The formation of the Racing Board and the National Stud Board are two concrete steps which have been taken to assist the growth of the bloodstock industry. The Racing Board, by ploughing back into racing the proceeds of the betting tax, have increased the status and value of Irish races far above their pre-war level and have thus provided a shop window worthy of the display of high-class goods. This more attractive shop window has in itself provided an added incentive to breeders to improve the quality of their stock. In order to promote still further this all-important industry a National Stud has been formed, the task of which is to provide for all breeders, big and small, stallions of sound breeding and racing performance at reasonable fees and to assist in any possible way in raising the prestige of Irish bloodstock. Senator O'Reilly suggests that as far as Tulyar is concerned the people of this country will not benefit at least for the first year, because it is his opinion that the mares that will be brought to Tulyar will be all from outside this country.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

Not all. A number will come from the studs within this country.

Mr. Quirke

It is true a number will be from outside the country but the Minister has made his statement in the Dáil—I do not know if he said it in this House, I was not here to hear it—that there will be no departure from the procedure heretofore which was that 25 per cent. of the mares will be allocated by the Board in the ordinary way, and as far as they can judge they will select the best mares available and 75 per cent. will be balloted for by breeders of this country.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

That will not happen in the first year, surely?

Mr. Quirke

Senator O'Reilly then knows more than the Minister or the Racing Board or the National Stud. If the National Stud is to play its part efficiently it is imperative that every stallion that takes up residence there should be the best representative available of his own class. In this way a strong and sound formation can be built up capable of supplying first-class assistance to every category of breeder.

It has been pointed out in the Dáil by some of the more enlightened speakers on this measure that the National Stud should acquire not alone Royal Charger and Tulyar, but other stallions which would be capable of breeding first-class horses and that those stallions should be available to the ordinary breeders who are not in a position to pay high prices by way of stud fees. I believe that system should be extended on the lines adopted in France and sires of good class should be made available to various sections and not allocated by the National Stud. I understand one or two horses, the property of the National Stud, are standing in outside studs. I believe that system should be extended, for the more it is extended the more it will raise the standard of breeding in this country.

Until six weeks ago, however, the spearhead of the formation was missing. The stud, in fact, possessed no stallion who could reasonably be expected to sire top-class performers over the full classic distance. That is what Senator O'Reilly said and that is exactly what his adviser and my adviser holds. He is a very good authority on racing. He says the chances are that Tulyar will sire horses very likely to win classic events in this and other countries.

This need was realised by everyone concerned, but to look for and to find a stallion with these qualifications are two very different popositions? The National Stud Board have been looking for a horse of this kind for a number of years. When Tulyar came on the market and it was decided they should purchase this in the interests of the National Stud and the future of the horse-breeding industry, it was not a case of one or two people on the board deciding it. They were unanimously in favour of the purchase of Tulyar. I believe that if a Bill came up here to increase the capital of the stud, without any reference to the purchase of a horse of any description, it would have gone through the Dáil in all stages in a day. I do not believe there would have been a word about it. I am convinced that certain speakers in the other House jumped at this purchase of Tulyar for political purposes and nothing else, and even on that low standard I am saying they have backed another loser.

Normal, ordinary people in this country are sporting people, interested in the welfare of every industry, and the vast overwhelming majority have not a word to say against the purchase of Tulyar. As I have said, the need was realised by everyone concerned, but to look for and to find the stallion with these qualifications are two very different propositions. There are few horses bred in a decade which come near to fulfilling all the requirements of a classic stallion prospect, and of these a large percentage are usually owned by mammoth breeders who will not part with their "super horse" at any price.

That was exactly the position of Tulyar. Most people thought the Aga Khan would not sell the horse, no matter what price was paid. We know that money does not mean much to a man of his wealth. But because he wanted the horse to remain in this country, to remain within reach of his own mares, he was agreeable to sell it to this country at a lesser price than anywhere else.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

Ssh——!

Mr. Quirke

Senator P.F. O'Reilly says "Ssh——." I do not know what that means. I can assure the House that I was in touch this morning by telephone with a man well known to horsebreeding in this country. He telephoned me from Shannon Airport on his way back from America to France. He is Mr. L.L. Lawrence, who bred some horses which carried the Irish flag in England, France and largely in America. He called on the 'phone to-day and said: "I do not know who is to be congratulated but you can give my congratulations to the Minister for Agriculture, to the National Stud Board or whoever is responsible for the purchase of Tulyar."

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

He does not pay-taxes in this country.

Mr. Quirke

That is what you think. He has paid more taxes in this country than people who have a lot to say about Tulyar. To tell you what his standing is in the racing world, I may say he has bred some of the most important horses in this country or any other country—the second or third most important in the United States at the present time, Prince Quillo, the second or third most important sire in the United States. He said this country was particularly lucky, that it was the talk of the United States that this country had purchased Tulyar.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

It is the talk of this country, too.

Mr. Quirke

The arrival of Tulyar on the market was a rare occurrence and one which, if it were humanly possible to exploit it, was too good an opportunity to miss. Few will argue that Tulyar fails to fulfil the requirements of a classic stallion. True, he has not yet proved his ability as a four-year old, but most racing men are agreed that the style of his past performances strongly suggests that he will be capable of doing so if required. We have had some of the judges here in the Seanad who say that the horse should be raced again pointing out what would happen if he were beaten and what would happen if he were not beaten. I take it that the Minister, while I think he is a far better judge of what should be done with the horse than any previous speakers, will probably leave that matter to the National Stud Board. They are the people who have to decide and, if they asked my advice, I would say: "Leave well enough alone; you have the greatest horse in the world, with an unbeaten record; put him to the stud and await results, and I have no doubt as to what the results will be."

It is difficult to make much of a case against the breeding potential of Tulyar. A lot of people have tried to find fault, but in the debates here and in the other House no one has succeeded in making any kind of a case against the purchase of Tulyar on either performance or breeding lines. They are second to none and I believe the results will prove that the National Stud Board is right and that people who are opposed to this Bill here or in the other House have backed another loser.

No major industry can fight its way to the top of the tree without the backing of advertising. Indeed, as the 20th century progresses, it seems that advertising is playing an ever-growing part in our daily lives. By purchasing Tulyar at a moment when the world limelight had switched from the brilliance of his three-year-old career and was intensifying its focus upon his possible $1,000,000 purchase by America, we struck an advertising blow for the Irish bloodstock industry such as has never been equalled in the history of horse breeding. That is a fact. There is no racecourse or meeting of any description in the United States, according to the man who spoke to me this morning, which has not discussed the purchase of Tulyar and which has not given the impression that Ireland, having purchased Tulyar, is the envy of practically every country in the world where horse breeding is an industry. No £1,000,000 advertising campaign could have drawn the eyes of the world upon Irish bloodstock so effectively as did the news that this great Irish-bred horse was destined to return to the land of his birth. In every corner of the world to-day, whenever two horsemen meet, it will not be many minutes before the names of Tulyar and Ireland arise and are coupled in the conversation. That is real advertising and is worth all the posters and pamphlets in the world.

Tulyar's purchase, however, will pay even more dividends than those attributable to stud fees and advertising value. There will be keen competition for his services, and almost certainly the directors of the National Stud will take into consideration the quality of the mares whose names are submitted, in their allocation of at least some of the nominations. His presence at Tully will, therefore, act as a spur to Irish breeders to improve the quality of their brood mares, a most desirable improvement. The Irish breeders, realising the importance of the stallion which will now be at the National Stud, will try as far as possible to have mares acceptable as suitable mates for Tulyar, and that will be an incentive to people to go into breeding better class horses.

Many of Tulyar's progeny will come up for auction at the Ballsbridge yearling sales, and it is reasonable to expect that their presence there will attract buyers from all over the world. The likelihood of more foreign buyers travelling to the sales will influence more breeders to sell their yearlings on the home market and will thus add even further lustre to the Irish bloodstock scene. These and other far-reaching effects will prove before many years are passed that the acquisition of Tulyar was a praiseworthy and logical step in the building of a great national industry.

I believe, as Senator Loughman has pointed out with regard to Harmonica, that, in years to come, people will trace back the breeding of high-class horses in this country to Tulyar. I remember, when I was 30 or 40 years younger, members of my family were interested in the bloodstock industry. Then, for most of the horses, they tried to trace back to Birdcatcher. I remember one old horse, not worth as much as Tulyar, £175,000—he was a horse called "The Rack"—and I heard about him very often. He was by Thrales, by Restless, by Breadelban, by Stockwell, by The Baron, by Birdcatcher. They tried to trace the breed of several old horses back as far as Birdcatcher. I believe that, in 20, 30, 40 or 100 years' time, if this horse has the luck we all wish him, even those speaking politically against him, the people of this country will be tracing the pedigree of stallions and yearlings, and, instead of going back to Birdcatcher, they will be and back to Birdcatcher, they will be tracing back to Tulyar.

It is all very well to say we have some wealthy individuals who should have purchased this horse. No matter how patriotic the individual is, he is bound to take notice of the immediate result likely to come; but the country as a whole, as represented by the National Stud, is bound to look far into the future and realise that, far and above any immediate profits which may come as a result of the purchase of horses of this country, in the years to come his progeny will bring into this country money such as was never brought into it before, as a result of the sale of bloodstock. It is important to note that Tulyar, as far as I know, will be the third Derby winner ever to stand at stud in this country. I can be corrected if I am wrong. The others were Arctic Prince, the property of Mr. Joe McGrath, and—I think, though I am not quite sure, he stood as a stallion here—Orby.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

What about Blandford?

Mr. Quirke

Orby stood as a stallion here, but in any case it is very important that we have horse of this type standing here. As I said earlier, there was a time when the Irish people could not afford to maintain the best horses the country was able to produce. At that time, we had not our own Government and we had not what would be called an Irish National Stud to take over jobs of this kind. That was a time when two such horses as Galtymore and Ard Patrick, bred in County Limerick by Mr. Gubbins, won the Derby and, having won the Derby, were sold, one to Russia and the other to Germany. In these countries to-day, they are tracing back the pedigrees of their high-class horses to the horses bought for very small sums from the people who bred them here.

In the past, Ireland has been very much in the limelight so far as breeding high-class steeplechase horses is concerned, but has not been so much in the limelight so far as flat racehorses are concerned. In 50 years, 33 Irish-bred horses have won the Grand National, a record of which any country might be proud. It will be a terrible accident if we do not have an Irish horse winning the Grand National this year, too, and it is a safe bet that, of the first five horses passing the post after that race, the first three will be Irish-bred. That is a reasonable bet, and if you keep on making it you will finish up backing winners.

With regard to the other type of horse—what might be called the short distance horse or sprinter—we have not had the success we might have had. We have done fairly well since 1920, in that eight Irish bred horses won the English Derby, seven Irish bred horses won the English Oaks and 15 won the St. Leger.

A desperate effort will have to be made if we are to hold our place, particularly so far as the United States are concerned. If this horse had been allowed to go to the United States— and I have no doubt whatever that an American syndicate was prepared to pay far more for the horse than we were prepared to pay—we would have far more criticism than we have to-day because he was not allowed to go to America and because he was purchased for the benefit of the breeders of this country.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I would not worry about that.

Mr. Quirke

I have not the slightest doubt about that. As a result of his purchase by the National Stud, we will have American buyers coming to the Dublin sales and, while they cannot all be accommodated with Tulyar yearlings, any normal man will agree with me that, if a man comes from America to purchase a Tulyar yearling, and if he cannot get a Tulyar yearling, he will buy the next best and, if he cannot get the next best, he will take the next best again, so that, as a result of the purchase of this horse, not only for the next five, ten or 12 years, or for whatever period of years he continues to stand, for 20, 30 and 50 years to come, people will be coming here trying to get Tulyar blood. By the passing of this Bill and the purchase of this horse for the National Stud, we are building up an industry which will bring in dollars in perhaps greater measure than most of the other industries we are backing to-day.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

Would the Senator venture an opinion as to how many of Tulyar's first yearlings will be sold at Ballsbridge?

Mr. Quirke

Senator O'Reilly is a pessimist.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I am merely asking a question.

Mr. Quirke

He wants to know how many yearlings by Tulyar will be sold at Ballsbridge. Every yearling by Tulyar that is produced at the bloodstock sales at Ballsbridge will be sold, and sold at a good price.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I quite agree, but how many will be sold there?

Mr. Quirke

And everyone that will be bred, I hope, will be sold at Ballsbridge. The more we concentrate on that, the better, and there is no use in throwing cold water on the thing at all. Some slight benefit for political purposes may be gained. There are some people in this country slightly inclined to the left—slightly pink, or between pink and red—who are against the purchase of Tulyar. I am not suggesting that either Senator O'Higgins or Senator O'Reilly are either pink or red, but I have a slight suspicion that the people against the purchase are catering for that type of vote, and I think it is disgraceful that a national industry, bringing in millions to the country, with the prospect of bringing in far more in the future, should be made the plaything of political Parties. The purchase of this horse should have the support of every political Party, and, when the whips were taken off Tulyar, the more enlightened people, the more educated and more reasonable people, in the various Parties, even those who originally formed the Coalition, backed the purchase. All I can say is that I am sorry for the people who did not, because they are in a hopeless minority.

Mr. Commons

I know very little about thoroughbred horses. I know nothing about racing and I do not suppose that at this stage I will bother learning much about it. But I have the average farmer's knowledge of a good horse. Down in the West, we judge them by the depth of their shoulders, the width of their chest or the shortness of their fetlocks. We have our own technical terms for them, but apart from that, I know nothing about thoroughbreds and pedigrees and, as I say, I do not intend to bother learning at this stage. So far as the Bill is concerned, however, I regard it as the action of a group of madmen to present to a country in the state in which this country is a bill for £250,000 for any racehorse, no matter what his pedigree or what he is worth, or what they think he is worth or expect he would realise, if put up in the open market. If this country were prosperous and rolling in wealth, if every individual in it was employed at work which gave him a good weekly return, if everybody had full and plenty and if we had no emigration, I would still oppose the payment of £250,000 for Tulyar.

Mr. Quirke

How much would you pay?

Mr. Commons

I would pay nothing for Tulyar, nothing whatever. It may be all right for Senator Quirke to say we breed the best horses in the world. I agree that we bread the best horses in the world, or as good as the best, but we also breed some of the best men in the world. Which would Senator Quirke prefer to see grazing or working on the green fields— thoroughbred racehorses or thoroughbred Irishmen?

Mr. Quirke

There is no necessity to separate them at all. We always bred both and will continue to do so.

Mr. Commons

We did, but we exported them, as we will be exporting yearlings and two-year-olds by Tulyar. We are exporting Irishmen every single week.

Mr. Colgan

We have been exporting them since the Famine.

Mr. Commons

Every Government that ever got into power here was going to keep them at home, and I am not suggesting that the Government with which I was associated was any better than any other in that respect. The cry of everybody was that we were going to keep our thoroughbred Irishmen at home. I do not believe there is room in this country for great stud farms. The country is too small and the area of arable land we have should be devoted to something entirely different. If and when there are not sufficient Irishmen to work this arable land, let us, by all means, have stud farms.

Having listened to all the speeches here, I do not know what would be the best thing to do for the portion of County Mayo I come from. Senator Loughman said that, in his travels around Tipperary, he did not hear a single individual complain about the purchase of Tulyar.

Mr. Quirke

Paddy Crowe complained in the Dáil.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Commons should be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. Commons

I do not mind the interruptions at all. I am an old dog at this game. We all regard Senator Loughman as an honest, decent citizen. Since Tulyar was mentioned, all the people I met in Mayo, both supporters of my own little Party and those of the Fianna Fáil Party, asked: "Have the Government gone stone mad?" If Senator Loughman were to come to the County Mayo and defend the purchase of Tulyar, he would have a very stormy passage and a very stormy exit.

Mr. O'Higgins

You could give him Tulyar to carry him out of the county.

Mr. Commons

He would not be fast enough.

Mr. Hartney

He is worth the £250,000.

Mr. Commons

No horse in the world is worth that when it comes to a decision to provide money for a horse rather than human beings. Some of the Minister's colleagues are now trying to point out that this is not a Bill for the purchase of Tulyar, that we are only advancing this money to raise capital for the National Stud. We were told to-night that the money would be advanced whether Tulyar was purchased or not. We know that is all cod and humbug. This £250,000 is for the purchase of this thoroughbred. It is a gamble which no Government in the world would undertake. No Government in the world would tax its own people to provide £250,000 for the purchase of a racehorse.

We are told the Americans wanted to buy it. Was it the American Government who wanted to buy it? Was the Secretary to the American Treasury going to ask the taxpayers of that country to put up the money to purchase the horse, or was it a group of individuals in the Southern States of America who formed a syndicate and put up their own money?

Mr. Yeats

They wanted to make money.

Mr. Commons

They were quite entitled to do it if they were millionaires. Senator Yeats does not know anything about horses.

Mr. Yeats

The Senator said he did not, either.

Mr. Colgan

He said that, as a farmer, he knew nothing about horses.

Mr. Commons

I made it quite clear that I knew about working horses. Would the Chancellor of the British Exchequer provide the £250,000? We are boastfully told what a great bargain this was. We are told how nice it was of the Aga Khan to sell us this horse and how lucky we were to get him and that it was an exceptional stroke of good luck. Is it not strange that we never thought of our exceptional ill luck? If we check up on the register of unemployed we will find that 90,000 of our able-bodied men are without work, all marching to the labour exchanges.

Senator Colgan said it was not that much, but even if the figure was 40,000 or 50,000 it would still be rather peculiar that we could not provide money for those while from the blue we can provide the money for a racehorse. All the benefits will go to the individuals who are interested in horse-racing in this country. What benefits from Tulyar will ever reach the County Mayo? How will the purchase of the horse benefit the people of Connaught? What financial returns will accrue?

Mr. Loughman

Would you think it would be worth while selling the Cross of Cong?

Mr. Commons

The Cross of Cong did not cost us £250,000. The Senator spoke about the Book of Kells, but this is a hard cash deal. The Cross of Cong cost us nothing.

Mr. Loughman

We can afford to keep it.

Mr. Commons

It did not cost the taxpayers anything.

Mr. Yeats

How much will grass meal benefit the County Dublin?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator should be allowed to proceed with his speech without interruption. He should be permitted to make his speech in his own way. Senator Yeats will be given an opportunity to make his own speech.

Mr. O'Higgins

It is essential to provide the wherewithal to feed Tulyar.

Mr. Commons

I will take up the question of grass meal.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It would be better to continue with Tulyar, otherwise the Senator might find himself in trouble.

Mr. Commons

Last week when the Government introduced a measure to provide £100,000 for the starting of a grass meal industry, I was one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the measure. If we could have added £250,000 to that and made it £350,000 for the grass meal industry, Senator Yeats would then have had plenty of food if he wanted to go to Mayo for it; but we could not do that. We could only provide £100,000 for the grass meal industry and we got that by scraping. Yet, like a bolt from the blue, £250,000 is provided for the purchase of a horse which might or might not produce wealth. It is a gamble.

I have great respect for the Minister for Agriculture and I welcomed him when he came to the County Mayo, but he has changed. I doubt if this is his idea. I do not think it is. Yet he piloted this Bill through the Dáil and must accordingly take the blame. He has changed from being the simple farmer interested in tillage and increased agricultural production to being the top-class £250,000 gambling man of the Irish Parliament. If it were a question of doubling the value of every dairy cow, would we throw £250,000 around so flippantly?

Mr. Colgan

How many hundreds of thousands of pounds have been thrown to the farmers of Ireland?

Mr. Commons

How many hundreds of thousands have the farmers given back? Would the Senator tell me which is the more important, embracing with loving arms a racehorse industry or looking after the agricultural industry as a whole? Would you or would you not pay these sums of money for animals that would increase our live stock? Senator Hartney said there are plenty of bulls purchased every year.

Mr. Hartney

Some are purchased.

Mr. Commons

Every year from every committee of Agriculture in the Twenty-Six Counties comes a demand for more and higher premiums, but they are told that they have been given enough and that they will be given no more.

Mr. Hartney

I have seen them left over.

Mr. Commons

The Senator has seen them left over in the case of dairy shorthorns, but not otherwise, and the premiums which farmers 20 years ago got for dairy bulls were, in comparison, far better than they are securing to-day. We have gone suddenly from a community of agriculturists into a community of racehorse owners.

Senator Quirke, unfortunately, is not here but he probably will recall the time when in famine years a farmer was obliged to sell his horse, no matter how good it might be, to a Protestant for £5; that was a long while ago. In the years from 1918 to 1923 what good were the racehorse owners to this country and what contribution did they make to the struggle for independence? How many of these men were like Senator Quirke and many others? There were two large racehorse owners near me where I lived in County Mayo and they are now happily gone out of existence.

At the present time we are faced with a choice of the people of this country or the purchase of a racehorse. We have bought a stallion, but this Seanad cannot do anything about it. It will be a very open and independent vote on the Bill and people who are normally in opposition have divided views. There are those who say that if we have a stud we should go in for the very best type of animal and for the breeding of first-class horses, and then those who, like myself and Senator O'Higgins, are totally opposed to it and who think there are ways of spending the money more beneficially for the country. But as far as the Fianna Fáil Senators are concerned, there is no divided mind and all are of the one view that Tulyar is a valuable asset and something which will prove really valuable to this country.

Mr. Yeats

Hear, hear.

Mr. Commons

We have heard a "hear hear" from people who are regimented by the "Tulyars" who lead the Party. But as far as I am concerned, the county which put me into the Senate and into political life at the outset is a county where people cannot afford the luxuries of racehorsing or paying in taxes moneys which may be squandered by the Government for the purchase of expensive thoroughbreds. If I said anything other than what I have said, I would be misrepresenting the county from which I come. It is quite clear that racehorse owners and breeders who graze their thoroughbreds over our finest fields are enemies of this nation and no good whatsoever to this country, especially when we see emigrating by the thousand people who would be able to work and toil for the national benefit in these fields in which the racehorses are grazing.

Mr. Yeats

I do not know really whether those who have spoken against the purchase of Tulyar are in earnest or not, or if they have any idea what they are talking about. We should be quite clear about this, that the increase in the capital of the National Stud, mainly for the purchase of Tulyar, has nothing to do with the level of taxation. The £250,000 to be invested in the Stud is a capital investment and has nothing whatever to do with taxes. Only to-day we had in the Senate a Bill to invest £165,000 in the bogs of Mayo and under which the State will spend several million erecting a huge power station in that county. The State is this year spending millions of pounds on housing, hospitals, schools, rural electrification and the like, and the total amount which is being spent on capital services which have nothing to do with the taxpayers is in the region of £40,000,000.

Now, this £250,000 being invested in the livestock industry is approximately one/one hundred and sixtieth part of the total capital investment being made and there is no connection between this sum being invested in the bloodstock industry and emigration or taxation. In fact, this investment along with the rest of the £40,000,000 being spent on capital development is in accordance with the general purposes of such development, namely to improve the living standards of the people and provide employment in this country. Senator Commons speaks about the livestock industry and stud farms as if they were things that should not be allowed at all, but surely he should realise that stud farms are, in fact, one of the best forms of farming there is from the point of view of giving employment.

Mr. Commons

They give employment to one man per 20 acres.

Mr. Yeats

The facts show that the amount of employment given by stud farms—this can be got from the Central Statistics Office and the Minister will also have them—is higher than almost any other type of farming.

Mr. O'Higgins

What about tillage farming?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

If Tulyar replaces Royal Charger where is the additional employment?

Mr. Yeats

Surely, the more prosperous the bloodstock industry is the more employment it can afford to give. It is all very well to talk about rich stud owners as if they were the only people involved, but a great many people are employed in the studs and in the bloodstock industry, not merely in relation to stud farms, but running racecourses and the like. Stud farms, apart from the employment given, use a great deal of fodder which is taken from the neighbouring farming community. If Senator Commons wishes to close down the stud-farming industry and the National Stud, then that is all right. If, however, the bloodstock industry is a valuable industry from the point of view of the employment given, then the better type of horse we have standing at stud the better for the industry and the country itself.

Mr. Commons

On a point of order. Why, then, if Senator Yeats regards the bloodstock industry as so valuable——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Commons

Why does not the Department of Agriculture advertise for more horses instead of looking for more tillage, more wheat, beet and potatoes?

Mr. Yeats

It is hardly worth answering that, but I will do so. The total acreage taken up by the bloodstock industry is, of course, a very small part of the total tillage of the country, and it is no hindrance whatever to the extension of tillage generally, because there is no connection between the two.

This Bill is one which, if it proves successful, as we hope it will, quite clearly will have beneficial results, not merely from the point of view of the country, but from the point of view of the employment which it will provide.

The National Stud was set up originally in 1946, not for the purpose of making money as a stud, but for the purpose of developing the bloodstock industry in this country, and of improviding it. This increase in the capital will help it in that work. I hope that we will pass this Bill for the purpose of purchasing Tulyar.

Senator Commons has suggested over and over again that he believed we should not buy this horse at a time when the people are emigrating from the country. I wish he could realise that this is, in fact, the type of development which is best calculated in the long run to stop that type of emigration to which we all object so much. Unless we provide the necessary money for the development of industries such as the bloodstock industry, we will never be able to stop emigration. This Bill is calculated to further the purposes which Senator Commons has in mind, just as the £165,000 which will give employment to 30 or 40 people in Mayo under the Grass Meal Bill will do. We are now voting £250,000 which will, in the long run, provide a great deal more employment in the country than that given under the Grass Meal Bill, which is, nevertheless, a good scheme.

We are investing £40,000,000 this year, and I am convinced that that £40,000,000, including the £250,000 which is provided for here, for the purchase of Tulyar, will give a great deal of employment and will stop people from leaving the country.

Mr. McHugh

I oppose this Bill for a number of reasons which I will give to the House. I have listened to the speeches in favour of the measure by Senator Loughman and Senator Quirke who mentioned that in every part of their constituencies, and throughout the country, people were loud in their praise of the purchase of Tulyar. I think they must have been moving around some Kildare backways.

I have had quite a lot of dealings with cross sections of the people in the country and from outside the country and not one of them in discussing the purchase of Tulyar has a single word to say in favour of it. All the Senator heard from those people were comments such as: "Have the Government gone mad?" The only other things said about it were in the form of jokes, none of which were very good, but in all of which the Government and the Ministers were made the butt of the jokers. That appears to me to indicate that the people generally are not in favour of the purchase of Tulyar.

While I am not in favour of the purchase of Tulyar, that does not mean that I am opposed to the principle behind the Bill, of supporting the Irish bloodstock industry. We all know that that industry is a valuable asset to our industrial economy. The Minister has put the value of the export trade in horses at £3,000,000, but he did not make any mention in giving that figure of how much of it came from the horrible trade of exporting horses for slaughter. Perhaps if that figure of £3,000,000 is broken down we might not have such a huge figure for the bloodstock trade. I do not mention that in any deprecatory fashion.

I would not oppose the Bill if the times were favourable and the Government were in a position to reduce taxation, and if the times were so good that we could say that we have so much money in the Exchequer we can afford to use some of it in the reduction of taxation. At a time when, according to a report in the Irish Independent of February 27th last, the Minister for Finance and other Ministers of the Government are telling the people that there never was such a difficult financial position, and when the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance are stating that we have reached the saturation point in taxation, I feel that any expenditure which imposes further burdens on the people should not be undertaken, and particularly for the purpose of buying one horse. How in such circumstances can this sum of money come out of the blue for such a purchase?

Mr. Baxter

Maybe it is out of the red.

Mr. McHugh

It may be out of the red before we are finished. I would not question the competence of the National Stud Board to decide what is a good horse and what is not a good horse to purchase. I think this is not the time to purchase Tulyar. When the directors of the National Stud are making decisions to purchase they do not have to consider the over-all picture of our economy. It seems to me that is not the function of the directors of the National Stud, but it is quite certainly the business of the Oireachtas, and for the members of both Houses of the Oireachtas to take into consideration in such expenditure the whole picture of the country's economy.

Can we afford to pay this tremendous sum for a horse which is alleged to be unique? The question arises, however, whether he is unique. He has not been bought for racing purposes but for stud purposes. If he has been bought for stud purposes is he particularly unique? According to the Sporting Press, which I understand is a reputable sporting paper, of February 27th, Tulyar is two years older than a two-year old horse called Tarjoman. That, to my mind reduces the value of Tulyar because it means that Tulyar is not unique as a racehorse. His full brother could be a complete flop. If he is proved a flop it will mean that Tulyar is just a flash in the pan or a freak horse, and that would indicate to me, at any rate, that £250,000 is a fantastic price to pay for him.

Again, according to the copy of the Sporting Press of Friday, March 6th, on the question of Tulyar's performances, they say that: “Tulyar was a game horse, able to act on all types of going, and that that could never be disputed. Of his class as a potential stallion, there must remain grave doubts.”

Asking "What did Tulyar beat," the paper says: "As a two year old he was moderate, but so also was many a good horse before him." They then say: "As a three year old he swept all before him on all sorts of going, but what did he beat?"

Going on to describe the type of horse which Tulyar beat, the writer says:—

"Gay Time—despite his purchase by the English National Stud— judged throughout his career could hardly be referred to as a St. Simon. Faubourg, at the time of the Derby —in which he was beaten no more than two lengths—was only of moderate class according to French standards of vintage years."

Mr. Colgan

What paper was that? Was it an Irish paper?

Mr. McHugh

It is the Sporting Press, the official organ of the Irish Coursing Club, published in Clonmel. It says that Tulyar stood the test as a three year old, but asks what did he beat. It then says he beat Gay Time which was purchased by the English National Stud. It goes on to say:—

"No horse can do more than win, and win easily, even against moderate opposition and that Tulyar achieved this is without dispute. There are however, other factors that should be dwelt upon."

He then goes on to question his breeding having already cast doubts upon the animal as a racehorse.

"His sire, Tehran, prior to the coming of Tulyar was far from a success. It would be of interest to adjudge his next best son. Mystery IX, a moderate Eclipse winner, was sold for export with undue haste to South Africa.... We have waited 40 years for one successful stallion of this line."

Forty years before Tulyar was produced and it is doubtful yet if Tulyar will be a success or not. It continues:—

"As regards Tulyar's dam line, the one possibility of success would seem to lie in his maternal grandsire, Nearco. For the rest it is only necessary to remember Harinero, Athford, Primero and Trigo. That they could have been no more than handicappers was the normal expectation..."

And it concludes by saying:—

"For the Irish National Stud's initiative in obtaining something that the world desired, there can be nothing but admiration and credit. As to whether it will succeed, the ensuing years will tell."

That is a reputable sporting paper in this country and it has cast doubts on Tulyar's performance as a racehorse, it says that he only beat second or third raters. It also cast doubts on his breeding. For a Minister or a Government or a Senator then to stand up in this House and say this horse is worth £250,000 after all that is very strange. At any rate it certainly raises grave doubts in my mind about the animal. I am not an expert but I presume a reputable paper like that would not publish those things unless there was something in them.

Mr. Loughman

Would you accept the experts who are in the National Stud?

Mr. McHugh

I am putting forward those views.

Mr. Loughman

But you said you had every confidence in the Irish National Stud. That is just a sporting paper.

Mr. McHugh

We have two different views. You are putting yours and I am putting mine. The purchase of Tulyar is supposed to benefit the country as a whole, but, as far as I can see, the only section who will benefit are the men of substance and wealth, the racehorse owners and breeders. I fail to see how the ordinary small farmer will benefit. Certainly the unemployed in this country, the people who more than any other section need the help of our Government, can find no help in the purchase of Tulyar. There are certain arguments put forward on the lines that we should buy the best for the National Stud or else close the stud down. To my mind that is utter nonsense. If we cannot afford to buy the best for the stud, I do not think that we should close it down. It has been a success up to the time that Tulyar came on the market.

The fact that we do not buy the horse and refuse to pass this Bill—I do not think we will, but if we should refuse and left Tulyar to the Aga Khan —would not mean that the National Stud is doomed to failure. They can carry on without Tulyar as they did before he arrived. That argument is absolute nonsense. If it were pursued to its logical conclusion, I presume we should sack the Civil Service because we could not pay them. We should sack the Army, the police force and the teachers because we cannot afford to pay them decent salaries and, therefore, have not perhaps the best material in the services. The Government did not look for the best recently when they proposed to establish the transatlantic air service. They were satisfied with what was really an obsolete fleet of air liners. That whole argument is utter nonsense.

This is no time to gamble with £250,000 of the people's money on one horse. If the horse were sold to America or Russia or any part of the world he would still be an Irish horse and any record breaking progeny he might have would be classed as Irish-bred no matter where he was at stud. He would, in fact, confer as much benefit wherever he stood—just as if he were still in the Curragh. That is my opinion.

We are told that this animal will not have proved his worth until his progeny are two years old, but that is assuming that he has progeny. I maintain this is no time to gamble with the people's money particularly when, as I have shown here, doubts can be cast on this horse's ability, both as a racehorse and as a stud horse. I do not know whether those facts are right or whether the directors of the National Stud will eventually be proved right but, however, I believe like many other people in this and the other House and like the vast majority of the people throughout the country that Tulyar should not have cost us £250,000.

Mr. Hartney

I am not a racehorse owner nor a rash man but I come from a county that has always earned a good deal of fame as a country from which some outstanding horses were produced. Senator Quirke referred to Galtymore and Ardpatrick and I am sorry to say that one went to Russia and the other to Germany, but many another famous horse was also produced in that county. I know a couple of people in that county who had always bred and trained good horses and raced them with indifferent success and their horses received sometimes good and sometimes bad prices. They are all people who are doing it in a reasonably small way. They are of the people and were as much Irish in 1922 as they ever were since or previously. The £250,000 paid for Tulyar will be admitted to be a small amount of capital to put into any national project.

I am sure it will be agreed by everybody that if the Irish National Stud Board of Directors—I do not know if that is the right way to describe them —were to buy so many animals and then sit down and see how they would turn out, nobody would be pleased with them. The least we might expect is that they would be progressive and would get the best obtainable on the market. I cannot agree with Senator McHugh when he says that if the horse went to Germany, Russia or America it would be just as good for the Irish people. That could not be as he would carry the plums at Epsom and everywhere else. He says the honour would be traced back to the Emerald Isle.

Mr. McHugh

I spoke of the reputation of the Irish bloodstock industry. I did not mean that we would make a bit of money.

Mr. Hartney

I apologise. It is not said out of malice, as the Senator is here to defend himself. The Minister made reference to 12 years for the horse. I would be inclined to put it longer. If the horse is the success we are entitled to hope and his performance speaks for itself, the blood behind him is definitely blood anyone would like to possess in the form of a racehorse. I have heard experts give the opinion—it is not my own, as I am not qualified—that, assuming he sires good horses of both sexes and a number of them remain in the country, then probably for three generations, nearer to 50 years than to the 12 mentioned by the Minister, it will be pointed out on racecourses when there is a success: "There is the Tulyar blood again."

In races in the South, when they see a horse win a race meritoriously, people say: "There is the Desmond blood; it cannot be beaten," and the Desmond blood has been there for 40 years. All that holds good in this case, too. We definitely agree that a chance had to be taken. If it were not, it would be no use talking to-morrow or afterwards, when America would have the benefit. There was a horse some time ago that nothing much was thought about at all at first, yet a lot was done when it came to the closing stages to keep him alive and if it were possible later they would have resurrested him. That was Cottage. His two and three year olds proved his worth. Seaview came up a winner in the Galway Plate. Then there was Workman, which was another of the Cottage production, third in the Grand National. The next year he won it. There was Sheila's Cottage and Lovely Cottage. A lot was thrown away and lost when that horse was coming to the end of his days and superhuman efforts were made to prolong his life. Even when he passed out, if he could have been resurrected I feel it would have been done. We are taking precautions against that and let us hope we will be successful in our gamble.

I am not speaking for the City of Dublin, but for the County of Limerick, and as far as housing or anything else is concerned the buying of Tulyar is not doing us out of £1 we would get in the normal way for those things. Even the land project is not suffering and the Minister intends to put more in our way this year than heretofore. This is a capital investment, possibly spread over 50 years, and not a desperate chance. I hope we will be lucky, but the chance had to be taken. There is no use in a post mortem. In conclusion, may Tulyar make history and do justice to the ordinary farmer who is Minister for Agriculture and who has not yet gone over to the men with all the betting, the men who are big business.

Mr. Colgan

If there is one disinterested man here in this debate, in the words of Senator P.F. O'Reilly, I am that man. I was never at a horse race meeting in my life, so I am not interested in Tulyar as a horse, but I am interested in him for what he can do for the bloodstock industry. I am satisfied that the bloodstock industry is important and if Senator O'Reilly had known my simple ignorance on the question, he would not have so brusquely turned me aside when I asked how he arrived at £175,000. I was seeking genuine information and he refused to give it.

Regarding Senator O'Donnell, I do not think he is opposed to the Bill. He asked some questions and then said he was not opposed to it. Senator P.F. O'Reilly is opposed only to the price— he thinks we have been mulcted for an extra £75,000 we should not have paid. Outside that, he is in favour. Senator O'Higgins and Commons, particularly O'Higgins, reminded me of something that happened when I was a young man. In those days the trade unions used to walk out in processions through the City of Dublin and great pride was taken in "getting out the banner" and a horse and car cost a couple of pounds. But invariably, from a few fellows who never walked, the cry was heard: "What about the unemployed?" when the couple of pounds was being paid for getting out the banner. They said it should be spent on the unemployed. It is just the same with Senators O'Higgins and Commons. This has nothing to do with the unemployed. It is the investment of money to bring more money into the country which I hope it will and the more that comes in the better for everybody, unemployed or otherwise, because the more money we have the more prosperous we will become. Please God, the unemployment problem is a passing phase, but in the meantime we could lose this opportunity to make this investment. To me it appears like the owner of a business putting in an extra good type of machinery to develop the business.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

With other people's money.

Mr. Colgan

It does not matter. The other people's money put in can develop the country as a whole, so the other people are concerned in it. I was rather amused at Senator McHugh quoting a racing paper. I know nothing about racing, but I understand that the most unreliable newspaper you can read, particularly on racing affairs, is a racing paper, so I think his premises there are bad. He should not have quoted a racing paper against the Minister's word. The number of horses I have backed in my day would not make a decent field in big race, but I understand that racing newspapers generally are most unreliable.

The Minister has been criticised for the use of the word "gamble". That is horse racing. What is the National Stud, what is everything that comes from the National Stud, only a gamble? Is not the whole thing a gamble? Horse racing is a gamble. I do not condemn it. If men can afford to gamble, that is their own business. The very fact that it is racehorses, that we have a National Stud, justifies the Minister in using the expression "gamble", because every horse is a gamble. Every horse that runs in a race must be; if it were not a gamble, one horse would win all the time and then it would be most uninteresting.

Senator McHugh and Senator Commons talked about "if times were better". If times were better, probably there would be some other excuse for opposing the Bill. The times are not as good as we would like them to be, but it would be a tragedy from the point of view of this great Irish industry to let this opportunity pass without buying this horse when he became available. I was rather amazed at Senator P.F. O'Reilly talking to-day— and I think it weakened his case very considerably—about the expense of the Aga Khan taking a trip to America that might cost him £1,000. I understand that this gentleman, whose co-religionists make him periodic presents of his weight in gold, is one of the wealthiest men in the world.

The spending of £1,000 now and again to go to America is a poor argument for Senator O'Reilly to use. If he wants to go to America, he will go, and the question of expense will not arise. I believe the man has a regard for this country, but that, outside that, it will be good business for him to have his horse here and good business for us that he will patronise the stud with whatever mares he has available. As I say, I know nothing about racing, but I do know something about the wisdom of investing in this great bloodstock industry, so that it will be not only good but the best. Like Senator Quirke, it always gives me a thrill when I see a racing result with the heading "First three horses Irish bred". I think we should all have that mentality and be glad to see the National Stud being put in a position to compete with the best in the world.

Mr. Walsh

When coming to the Seanad to-day, I thought the Bill might be approached in a far different manner. I thought we would have had a reasonable approach to it. The first two speeches were good, but then we had Senator O'Higgins and a repetition of what had already been said in the other House. First, let us ask ourselves what is the purpose of the Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to increase the capital of the National Stud. It is not to buy Tulyar at all. I have not heard one speaker mention that the National Stud has £55,000 at the moment, without any £250,000, and if they wanted to buy Tulyar, they need have asked for only £200,000. But they have asked for £250,000 in order to enable them to buy the horse, to buy mares to supplement the mares they have in the stud and to do certain alterations, repairs and renovations to the stud itself.

It is equally as important to get good mares as it is to get good sires, and, for the past two or three years, the directors have been travelling around Europe and England looking for horses of the long distance type to put into the stud. They have tried in France and in Italy, and they have not succeeded in getting one. It is, if you like, a coincidence that Tulyar has come on the market at this particular time. Somebody suggested that it was a bad time. Maybe it was. If Tulyar had come on the market six months ago, we might not have had the same criticism as we have had, but it is a coincidence that he has come along when Senator O'Higgins, Senator Commons and a few others had some grounds on which to talk. They had the unemployed, but there is no relation whatever between the unemployed and the National Stud.

We must regard every industry in the country as an industry. There are several branches in agriculture. Why is there not criticism when moneys are made available for these? Why is the Livestock Breeding Act not criticised when we buy bulls and put them into Grange? Somebody asked, in connection with that, why there has been no criticism of land reclamation and all the other schemes. Because we are trying to build up this industry, an important industry, one of the most important we have from many points of view, not merely from the point of view of the cash value of the National Stud, but from the international point of view and from the propaganda we can use through our racehorses going abroad.

The directors of the National Stud need this money, and the reason for it is that, in 1946, when the National Stud was being established, the Government decided to give them £250,000 as capital. We all know that times have changed very considerably since 1946, that the value of money has changed since that time, and that mares, which could have been purchased in 1946 for a few thousand pounds, are costing from two and a half to three times as much. The same applies to sires. If we were to get the type of sire needed by the National Stud and to keep the stud in existence, it would be necessary for the Government to put up this money, or, if not, to say that the stud was not to be what it was intended to be, the best stud the country can afford.

It has been suggested that the people who will gain benefits from this purchase are the people engaged in racing. That is wrong. There are other people who gain benefits from racing. The whole country gains benefits from racing and the production of horses. There is not merely the question of thoroughbreds; there is the question of jumpers, hunters and the troopers we had up to a few years ago, and if Senator O'Higgins and Senator O'Reilly knew anything about the farming community, they would not have been as critical as they were when talking of this Bill. They have shown to me anyhow, whatever they have shown to the Seanad, that they know nothing about what they are talking about when they talk about farmers objecting to the purchase of this horse. The smallest farmer in this country, the 20-acre farmer has an interest in horse breeding and has an interest in it down through the years. Whether it was the man with a brood mare or a thoroughbred horse, a good trooper or a hunter, he was able to find a ready market for it when it was broken and trained, or the small breeder producing a chaser, a point-to-pointer or a hunter—all these people were interested in the type of horse breeding being carried on, and these people were going to gain a certain amount of benefit from our bloodstock. Let us take it that Tulyar is at the National Stud and a certain number of its yearlings go to Ballsbridge every year.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

How many of them will be sold there?

Mr. Walsh

We will deal with that. The fact that his yearlings are going to Ballsbridge, the fact that they are advertised in the catalogues is sufficient attraction to bring people from England, from the continent and even from America to have a shot at these horses and see if they can get them. The fact that these people are brought here is a good thing, because, if they are unable to buy a Tulyar horse, they may buy a Royal Charger horse, and every pound that comes in, every £100 that comes into the country is of value to the country, whether it goes into the pocket of somebody down the country, on the Curragh, or into the pocket of an individual in the City of Dublin who has a brood mare and who produces this yearling. That money is here and it is going to be put into industry, and here is where the unemployed we have are going to gain benefit, as they will gain benefit from any other project or industry that may be assisted by way of getting increased capital.

It is ridiculous to say that this £250,000 could solve the troubles of the unemployed. It would not give them £3 per head. I heard Senator Commons talk about relief schemes. What type of relief scheme would £250,000 give the 90,000 unemployed people he mentioned? It would not give them £3 per head. If that is his solution——

Mr. Commons

It is not my solution.

Mr. Walsh

If that is the only solution the Senator has, I am afraid he will never solve unemployment. The only way in which unemployment can be solved is by capitalisation of the industries we have and building them up in such a way that they are able to provide employment. We are doing that, so far as the bloodstock industry is concerned, by enabling the people down in the National Stud to get in a good sire, in order that we may encourage people from outside to come here to buy our yearlings and in that way to buy our bloodstock generally. This is going to be an advertising campaign for the country and should be regarded as such.

The possibilities are that the National Stud is not going to make any profits out of the purchase of Tulyar, as we may regard profits; but he will be worth it to the country in so far as he will bring people here, when his progeny is put on the market, to buy his progeny.

Mr. Baxter

What is the service fee going to be?

Mr. Walsh

That is a matter for the directors. I have no function in the matter of fixing the fees. The only thing I know is what I have been told. My responsibility and that of the Government in this matter is to act on the advice of the National Stud. They stated that they needed more capital if this concern were to be run as it should be. They were appointed by the Government in 1946. The Government had confidence in them then. During the three years the Coalition Government was in office and when Senators O'Higgins and Commons supported them, there was no question then that these people had not the confidence of the Government and had not the capacity to expend the money that came into the Stud. If the Government then had no confidence in these people——

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

There was no suggestion of that.

Mr. Walsh

——they have not got it now. It is on the directors' suggestion that the horse is being purchased. It is the unaimous wish of the directors to purchase Tulyar and in this case the Government increased their capital in order to enable them to do so. Senator O'Higgins stated that this was a gamble and that I admitted it was a gamble. He misquoted me in so far as he said that I stated the National Stud was a gamble. I said no such thing but I did say that the purchase of any horse is a gamble. It is a gamble to go to a fair and spend £20 on the purchase of a horse. If you buy a cow it is a gamble. Let us not try to get away from the idea that when you go out to make a purchase like that you have some guarantee that it is going to be a success. Everything you do in that regard is a gamble. This is no greater gamble than any other gamble that any ordinary farmer would make in the morning. The lawyers know there is such a thing as a gamble, too. Sometimes they run up against it and they make a big gamble. The criticisms by Senators were of the same type as those we had in the other House. I was not in this House when Senator McHugh questioned Tulyar's breeding.

Mr. McHugh

I did not.

Mr. Walsh

That questions the capacity and the ability of the people in whom he states he has the utmost confidence. If he has confidence in the directors—and I think he stated he had—then why should he challenge the decision to purchase Tulyar? If he questions the horse's breeding, he questions the directors' ability to judge.

Mr. McHugh

I did not question the breeding.

Mr. Walsh

Senator O'Reilly stated he valued the horse at £175,000. He must be a wonderful judge. I never came across a man yet who could judge in any way a hunter or racer to such an extent as to name a figure such as the Senator did and be so dogmatic about it. A person may judge a horse on his looks, to begin with, and on his performances. What does the Senator judge him on? Is it on his looks?

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

On his looks, breeding and performances.

Mr. Walsh

Very well. The Senator admitted that the people who were responsible for the management of the National Stud had his confidence, but now the Senator questions their right to purchase this horse because of his breeding. That shows that the Senator has some doubt about their ability.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I differ from them in their fixing of the value.

Mr. Walsh

In other words, you have no confidence in them. That is the only conclusion anyone could come to. The Senator has no confidence in these people. I never came across a man who could so clearly and lucidly value any horse in the way the Senator has done it. A man who goes out to buy a horse depends on what he is asked for that animal, if the animal suits him. Many factors have to be taken into consideration before one fixes the price in one's mind. A farmer going to buy a horse does not say: "I am going to pay £52 10s. for him and no more". If he finds the horse suits him at £60 he will pay that.

One must have regard to the factors with which you have to contend when you are asked the price. That is what happened in the case of Tulyar. I have no doubt in the world but that this is a good investment. Let it not be regarded as anything else. I hope it will be a successful venture. I think the directors of the National Stud should be congratulated on going to buy this horse and putting Irish bloodstock where it should be, in the forefront of horse breeding in the world.

Mr. McGee

I had intended to say something, but I suppose I am out of order.

Mr. Commons

Tulyar has passed the post.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister has concluded.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Next Stage?

Mr. Quirke

Now.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Second Reading was not agreed to——

Mr. Quirke

It was agreed to; we have gone beyond that stage.

Mr. O'Higgins

I was about to say it was not agreed to when Senator McGee rose.

Mr. Quirke

Next stage now.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Any objection?

Professor Hayes

Must we not agree to sit later if somebody wishes to speak on the Committee Stage? How long is it suggested we should sit?

Mr. Hearne

I suggest we sit not later than 10.30 p.m.

Agreed.