The purpose of this Bill is to continue the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, 1923 to 1953, for a further period. They would expire on the 31st March of this year.
Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1954—Second and Subsequent Stages.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
It would be an interesting parliamentary inquiry as to whether the present Defence Bill in the Dáil is a record for length and repetition.
For repetition, anyway.
And for waste.
Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now.
Bill considered in Committee.
Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."
I have read the Dáil Debates on this Bill and I understand a Special Committee was set up in connection with it.
This is not the permanent measure. It merely extends the temporary measures until the 31st March, 1955, as the current Bill expires on the 31st March of this year.
I take it I can speak in a general way on the Army now, at short length. I would like to make some remarks about the Army in general. It holds a very important position in our national life and I feel that ever since the inception of this State it has not got proper consideration and proper respect from the ordinary citizens. It is almost like an unwanted child. A lot of people go so far as to ask why we need an Army at all. Of course, that question is a ridiculous one. Everything possible should be done to make the Army attractive and to make it popular and respected. In order to achieve that, people should be told, first of all— though I do not know why that should be necessary—what the Army is for and why it should exist, even if we never had to fight a war. Everyone should know that it is necessary as the ultimate resource of the State in the event of failure of the police and other civil authorities in their efforts to enforce law and order. It is an essential even if we were never to have a war. It is essential, even from a disciplinary point of view, as something in the country that should give an example of order and discipline not only to the youth but to all citizens. That is one of the points I would like to talk about.
As a friend of the Army and as one closely associated with it during the emergency, I would like to make some constructive criticisms. I do not think the Army to-day is the kind of force that we can really be proud of. Why that is so I do not know. I would like to say that conditions in the Army should be attractive, the food for the troops should be good and the clothing should be good. I think those conditions are fairly well fulfilled and I see that recently the Minister has made some provision for improving the housing of married serving soldiers. That is all to the good. I have seen the Army from the inside, and I know it is good, and that they are good men and the best soldiers in the world, but I think the external appearance of our troops in the street is not a credit. I do not think their bearing, their carriage, is good. I do not think they are properly dressed when appearing in public, and altogether, they give a very slovenly, untidy appearance. Some people may not attach a lot of importance to external appearance, but I attach an enormous lot of importance to it and I know, from mixing around with people and hearing their comments, that the appearance of our soldiers in the streets is not good. The uniform is not well designed and even the new walking-out uniform cap is much too big and looks much more like the cap of a third-rate commissionaire in a cinema than a smart soldier's military cap.
It is well known that when a man gets into uniform he looks much better than he does in mufti. A man may look very slovenly and untidy in mufti. In the case of the R.A.F. or any regiment in England, that man looks a different man when in uniform. He is then something to be looked up to by the citizens, by the girls and by everyone. Everyone who has been in Irish Army uniform knows that you look much worse in uniform than you do in ordinary clothes. It is only a little point but an important one, as it is the external thing that everybody sees. In other words, I feel that for some reason there is a lack of "spit and polish" in the Army. That applies not only to the turn out of the men on their appearance in the streets but to everything else, including official duties. I have seen sentries being posted in a most slovenly and careless way, even in front of the Oireachtas buildings, which is something to be ashamed of.
I do not think I have ever seen an Army vehicle—a lorry or even a motor cycle—that looks as if it had proper attention for ages—except on the parade on St. Patrick's Day or something like that, when we have the wheels all blancoed and looking as if they were turned out for the one day, like a person who would wash his face every Christmas day to go to Mass. That is not right. It points to inefficiency behind the scenes. I know this because I have been in association with the Army and I run a business myself. I know it is no good being tidy for one day in the year; you must have a regular routine, day in day out. That may seem superficial, but it applies to everything, besides the uniform. If the lorries and motor cycles and other things are not properly done, all day and every day and at all times, the same inefficiency creeps into the training of the troops, from the earliest point of the T.R. manuals right up to the section, company, battalion and other exercises in the Army. If you are going to have slovenliness in the early stages, you are going to have it in all the stages right up to the top.
Let me repeat that anything I say is said in a constructive way. It is something which needs to be said and should be said and I propose to say it. If these things are not set right it is not alone bad for the morale of the Army but bad for the citizens, because the Army is something which we should look up to and be proud of, and these are the things that make us proud of our Army. I feel that the necessity for the Army is not understood, and, for some reason or other, we are always afraid, and were afraid even during the emergency, to make people realise that not only has the Army something to do with them, but they have a lot to do with it.
I can never understand why military service is not made compulsory in this country, if not in the Regular Army, at least in the F.C.A. I know the F.C.A. and I knew it during the emergency when thought the danger of invasion was imminent it was not possible to get people to turn out. People joined and were gone in a few days and you were lucky if you had 30 to 40 per cent. live strength in those days. I know the F.C.A. is in a much worse position to-day and we are only fooling ourselves and wasting public money in having an Army if we are not going to do things properly. Not only from the military point of view but from the disciplinary point of view, every young man in Ireland should at some time serve in either the Army or the F.C.A.
The general standard of deportment, of good manners and of dress in this country, speaking generally, is not good. Our young men do not know how to stand up straight or how to answer a superior officer or an executive in business. They will say "O.K." when you ask them to do something and they have no idea how to answer properly or how to stand on their own feet and look in a dignified way at the people over them. I feel that, if people were given a military training, the boys would learn how to stand up straight, how to be upright and be disciplined. If one goes to England and goes down to Euston Station, it is almost true to say that one could pick out the average Irishman by the way he slouches. It is really deplorable, and that should not be the situation because we have the very best material—fine, well-built men—but they have never been taught any discipline and if for no other reason than that, there should be compulsory military service.
That is purely from the physical and good deportment point of view, but there is also the psychological point of view of the effect of people getting together in the Army which breaks down all sorts of barriers. It is the one thing in the country in respect of which we can get above politics and religion and have a sense of unity. It has a very great unifying influence, as was the experience of anybody in the Army or the L.D.F. during the war. Bitterness of politics, bitterness of religion and all that sort of thing disappeared completely when you were in camp or on parade with fellow-Irishmen, no matter what creed or politics they professed.
Having said these rather hard things, I should like to say that there are good points about the Army. We all know the wonderful military college we have at the Curragh. It is second to none and I know, from experience and from having seen what happens there, that it is probably one of the foremost military establishments, not only in Europe but in the world. The type of officer produced by that college is a credit to Ireland and would be a credit to any country. If only the spirit and standards that prevail there were only made to prevail right through all the barracks and all the units of the Army, we would have the kind of Army which I have said we should have. I know the great interest the Minister takes in the Army and the long period for which he has been associated with it, and I feel that if the points I have made are accepted in the spirit in which they are given—a spirit of constructiveness —we would not only have a different Army but a different attitude on the part of our people to the Army.
With much of what Senator McGuire has said I am in thorough agreement, but I am certainly not in agreement with his suggestion that we should have conscription in this country. Whenever an emergency arose in this country, or whenever the safety of the country was threatened, either from without or within, there was never any dearth of volunteers, and one volunteer at any time is worth 50 conscripts. For that reason, I should not like it to go forth that the Seanad is in any way unanimous about the securing of the building up of our Army by means of conscription. I would not stand for that for a moment. I know quite a number of young people who have many happy recollections of the Army and I know they feel the same as I feel.
With regard to the summer camps for the F.C.A. it has happened in my end of the world that for the past few years the F.C.A. have gone to Youghal for the summer camp. That was particularly suitable because the largest number of people in the F.C.A. are people who have to work during the year and who use their holiday fortnight to attend this summer camp. This year I understand that they are to go either to Kilworth or Templemore, and I should like the Minister to bear in mind that these people I speak of, people who work in factories, shops and so on, take their wives and families to a place like Youghal and in the evenings, when their training, which is very severe, is over, they all get together and have their regular summer holiday; but if the camp is to be held in a place like Kilworth or Templemore, that family holiday may not be had. If it is possible at all to avoid a change from the seaside, in view of the type of people in the F.C.A., it should be avoided.
Senator Ruane disagreed with Senator McGuire on the military service angle and agreed with him on the other. I would reverse that position. I think Senator McGuire is perfectly correct in his attitude to this question of military service. I feel that some form of military service is definitely required, even from the point of view of deportment which he mentioned. We have some of the finest men physically to be found in the world, but you see them slouching along, as Senator McGuire has said, when they are not in the Army. I must say, speaking of a town in which there is a military group, that not only are the soldiers very highly respected in the town—so much so that the troops like to come to the town of Clonmel which I think is a sign that they have gained the respect of the people there—but, in the streets and particularly when marching, they present a very fine appearance.
So far as dress is concerned, I should not like to be critical of the hat. I do not know much about the details of things, but the battledress seems to me to be excellent and the walking out dress a vast improvement on anything we have previously had in the Army. While there is nothing like looking for improvements, it is bad to condemn the position as it is.
I agree with Senator McGuire that better provisions for soldiers with families are most desirable. The Minister should receive every encouragement to provide the Army with the very best possible conditions. As far as an Army in Ireland is concerned it is very difficult to keep soldiers content in it because we cannot send them abroad for variety or experience. They are confined sometimes to very remote places and have all kinds of disabilities to suffer. To offset that we should do everything we can to make it not only worth while for a young man to join the Army but to make it so that it would attract people who in other spheres of life might enjoy reasonable security, reasonable comforts and a reasonable measure of enjoyment.
I quite realise that the references made in the course of this debate are fully intended to be helpful and in many respects to be expressions of approval for the manner in which the Army is being conducted.
I do feel that some of the remarks made by Senator McGuire will react in the form of a cold shower on some of the officers who are doing so much to create the very right impressions which Senator McGuire seems to think are entirely absent. I suppose it would be true to say that the cloth from which the uniforms are made does not lend itself to that neat, tidy type of uniform that we see worn by soldiers of other nations. Whether there is anything in that or not is, perhaps, debatable.
As most Senators will remember, the cloth is a thick, woolly material, but it is Irish manufactured cloth, and it is only natural that we should insist upon it being Irish manufactured. I am afraid that the walking-out uniform which we are providing is not being produced as quickly as we would like to have it produced but, nevertheless, we are having it produced. Every week, month and year the total number of these uniforms issued is increasing. Unfortunately, we cannot issue them in as great numbers at a given time as we would like to. If we were able to do that, perhaps, the soldiers the Senator might see in the streets at the end of the day would, from that aspect alone, look much neater, fresher, tidier.
The Senator should remember that even he himself at the end of a long, tiring day would not look any fresher than these soldiers. A large number of Senators have some idea of the internal arrangements in these military barracks. For instance, before a man leaves the precincts of the barracks he is compelled to stand in front of a full-size mirror and examine himself to see if his uniform is correct in every detail. A senior N.C.O. is also present to see that the soldier leaving the barracks is in order. At the moment of leaving the barracks—I am sure that the Senator will agree with me in this— the soldier is a smart, neat, tidy and efficient man. If he goes home or goes to the cinema or the theatre or indulges in some other form of recreation, like any of the rest of us, he will not look so fresh at the end of the evening. Whether we see him at the end or at the beginning of the evening we must keep these facts before our minds.
The offenders are people who live at home. Is there not a certain number living at home?
Yes, a very big number.
Those in the barracks are all right, I know.
The soldier who lives at home has also to leave the barracks. He may have a residence and if a single soldier he may reside with his parents. The same considerations apply here. If he is a married man— and we hope he has a residence of his own—he is probably not seen on the street in uniform as he will probably change into mufti in the evening. However, the remarks made by Senator McGuire and other Senators will be helpful and will be brought to the attention of the military authorities.
With regard to the suggestion by Senator Ruane, I feel pretty certain that what Senator McGuire referred to was not compulsory service in the sense of conscription. We regard conscription as something foreign to this nation, something we would be prepared to fight and resist. Military training is a totally different thing. What Senator McGuire had in mind was something in the nature of national military training which, in my opinion, would be of outstanding benefit to the youth of this nation if ever any Government had the courage to face the situation and ensure that every young man at some period of his life would devote some portion of those years to training himself to be fit to defend the nation.
There are two valuable assets that are secured there. There is, first of all, that which Senator McGuire was looking for and that is the brightening up of the individual and the discipline which is inculcated in him as a result of his training. Then there is the fact that he will be a valuable asset to the nation in any time of serious emergency. It is because it is known as conscription and because we have resisted it as a nation ourselves that we would be always prepared to resist it in the case of a foreign nation endeavouring to enforce it on us. Military training would be worthy of consideration at some time.
I am glad to be able to say that more than 5,000 have joined the Army in the last three years and every one of these young men will be better men in the future as a result of having had two years' military service to their credit. They will have had the benefits of the training provided by the way of athletic exercises and the equipment provided for their participation in these exercises. They will have benefited not only physically but mentally and will be a finer asset to the nation in the years to come than the fellow who never gives any service to the nation but who stands around and does little or nothing and who is of very little value. I agree with Senator Ruane that in time of an emergency the manhood of this country have always been only too anxious to give their services. Unfortunately, as he knows himself, it is very often that type of untrained, undisciplined service which it takes so long to turn into the valuable asset that it should be.
In regard to the question of Youghal, we had a very fine training camp there but the building which we occupied was a very old building, well over 100 years old and it was completely and entirely unfitted for use in these modern days. It was with regret that we had to give up the building and at the same time give up the camp. It is intended to go now to one of the more modern barracks that we have available and, unfortunately, vacant and it will be there in future that we will have to give to the F.C.A. the training we were giving them formerly in Youghal and in some of those other seaside resorts.
I am grateful for the remarks which have been made. I think this makes a record because it is the first time we have ever had a debate on this Temporary Provisions Bill in this House and I can honestly say that I think it will have served a very useful purpose.
Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining stages now.
Bill passed through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration, and passed.