I should like to ask the Minister whether it has been considered that any conditions, other than those appearing here, might be insisted upon in relation to any given company applying for relief under this Bill. I want to ask the Minister whether any company, without exception, will get this kind of concession, or whether there is any discretionary power on the part of the Minister in view of certain agreements with companies. In other words, has it been considered that there might be a limitation of applications at ministerial discretion, or is that within the Minister's power.
Finance (Profits of Certain Mines) (Temporary Relief From Taxation) Bill, 1955 (Certified Money Bill)—Committee and Final Stages.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."
I have no discretion whatever under the section in question.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 3 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedule and Title agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining stages today.
Bill reported without recommendation and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."
I just want to suggest a point once more to the Minister. The Minister told us on the Second Stage that the question really had not been gone into as to whether it might be possible for us to be allowed to buy the copper concentrate from the mines in Avoca, and to arrange for the smelting of that concentrate elsewhere than in Canada. Since the Minister made it clear that that matter had not been contemplated or fully gone into, I wonder would he be prepared to say now that, with the company involved, he would be prepared to consider the question. He told us that the company had agreed to allow us to buy the refined copper derived from these concentrates but the point that seems to me to be at least worthy of exploration is whether, if these concentrates, coming from our mines, are shipped all the way to Canada and afterwards the refined copper is then shipped back home from Canada to here, even if we are given the opportunity of buying it then, whether, as it seems to me, it might not possibly be more economical were it to prove possible to make arrangements to buy the concentrates themselves at favourable pit-head prices, before any transport costs were added, with the possibility of our getting them smelted somewhere closer than Canada.
The Minister made the point that, with the return of the refined copper from Canada, we would be certain of the supply and he stressed the fact— I think, fairly—that the company in question was prepared to allow us to take a considerable proportion of copper in this way; but I would suggest that the certainty of the supply would be at least equally guaranteed, if we were supplying the concentrates to a smelting firm somewhere else in some nearer country—Sweden and Britain were mentioned—and that our supply, derived on the "drawback" system from our own copper concentrates, would be equally guaranteed. The reason I mention it now is that it would seem to me to be a pity if these possibilities were not even to be explored.
The Minister admitted that he had no information as to whether there were excess smelting facilities in Sweden or in Britain. All I am asking now is that he might perhaps be prepared to have the matter looked into, either through the Department of Industry and Commerce or through some other channel—the possibility of its being perhaps a more economic proposition for us to buy the concentrates at pit-head prices than to have to buy the refined copper after it has gone all the way to Canada and come back to us here.
I am afraid I do not understand exactly what Senator Sheehy Skeffington means. The price of copper is a world price and, whether it is cheaper to bring the concentrate from Avoca to Canada and get it smelted there, or cheaper to bring the concentrate from Avoca to Britain and get it smelted there, is a matter that does not govern the world price of the refined copper that would affect us, in so far as the price is concerned. What we were interested in was to make quite certain that, in any position in which there was difficulty of supply, the amount of copper that we could possibly require would be available for our use.
As far as the question of price is concerned, it does not matter to us whether it is smelted in Canada, or in Britain, or in Sweden. The only way that I would possibly think we could gain any advantage there would be if it were possible to get it smelted here; but the cost of installing a smelter is very, very large indeed, probably—I am not giving this as any firm estimate anything from £2,500,000 to £3,000,000, and I do not know whether the supply would be sufficiently regular to meet the economic capacity. I doubt in some ways if it would; in other ways, it might.
One must remember this in relation to the question of smelting: people who have smelters start with their smelting capacity and work back, so to speak, from that to their mining activities, and I have no doubt that one of the things at the back of these people's minds at the time they were considering mining in Avoca was that they would be able to integrate it with their smelting programme. On the Senator's suggestion, they would not be able to do that and I can quite well see that, on that basis, there might be objections from their point of view. Equally, from our point of view, I cannot see any difference in price.
Dr. Sheehy Skeffington rose.
The Senator is not in order, unless he wants to ask a question.
I do want to ask a question, arising out of the Minister's answer. I am not clear in my mind what kind of currency we would be using to buy this refined copper, once it comes back. Would we be able to buy it with our own money here, or would we have to buy it with Canadian dollars?
I would have to read the lease again in order to answer that question.
Question put and agreed to.