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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Jan 1957

Vol. 47 No. 1

Married Women's Status Bill, 1956—Second Stage (Resumed).

The Minister and his draftsmen are to be congratulated once more. If the Minister goes on at his present rate, he will, I think, prove to be a greater legislator than any since the Emperor Justinian. To a lawyer, there is something very satisfying in these codifying statutes, since we suffer in this country from a lack of textbooks. We carry on here on a very complicated basis of English statute law, common law and decided cases. That system has been possible in England because of the frequency of textbooks and so forth. Because this country is so small and because the market is so small, it is impossible to produce textbooks here. Indeed, in the end, this country may have to turn to a code of law such as exists in the Roman law countries, for example, France and Germany.

The Minister is doing excellent work in gradually codifying the law here. That codification will ultimately clear the way to what will be a simpler and more appropriate form of jurisprudence here. If we continue as we are going at present, in a few years' time, the law will be completely unknowable. It has practically reached that point at the moment, because of lack of appropriate textbooks. From that point of view, the work the Minister is doing along the lines of codification is extremely valuable and he is to be commended for it.

This is a Bill which lends itself to discussion more on Committee than on this stage, but there are nevertheless extremely important points which must be made now. There are some things omitted from the Bill, things which I hold should be incorporated in the Bill. One is in relation to the devolution of property when a wife dies intestate. A married woman has exactly the same right and freedom to make a will as an unmarried woman or a man. That has been the position for years. If, however, a wife dies without making a will, all her personal property goes to her husband. That used to be the law in England. It is not the law in Scotland; it is not the law in France. It is time it ceased to be the law here.

If a husband dies without making a will, the wife takes one-third and two-thirds go to the children. I think the same position should obtain when the wife dies intestate. I see no reason why the husband should automatically succeed to the whole of his wife's property. I see no reason why the law of devolution of property in the case of a wife should be any different from the law of devolution of property in the case of a married man. Indeed, one might have thought perhaps that it should have been the other way about, because the husband is supposed to provide for his wife and, if he fails to make a will, then all his property should go to his wife. I see no reason why all the wife's property should go to the husband and I should like to offer an amendment to that provision. It is a very important point.

There is another point which is not quite so important. At the moment, there is an anomaly in relation to married women. Under our Constitution, the husband is the natural guardian of the children. One would expect that, on the death of the husband, the wife would be the natural legal guardian; but she is not so, of necessity. No matter what rules one lays down, there will be hard cases, but it should be the law that, when a husband dies, a wife should be the guardian of the children.

There is one clause to which I am very much opposed. Senator Kissane approved of it. I refer to the clause abolishing restraint on anticipation. The idea hitherto was that a father in providing for his daughter had power to settle property in such a way that the daughter, while married, could not anticipate her income. The purpose was to protect the woman from the possibility of her husband's folly. There obviously could be cases in which, having made that provision to protect the daughter, it might subsequently be found much better, had the daughter been able to dispose of her property; but experience has proved that restraint on anticipation was both wise and proper and I see no reason why the Legislature should now seek to prevent people giving that protection.

I am as anxious as everyone else to ensure that the status of women should be both as strong and as good as that of men. I hold they should have exactly the same rights as men. But it is the experience of everyone who has to deal with this kind of case that you do get cases of a woman with property who has to be defended or ought to be defended against the attempts of her husband to get at her property. As the Minister has said, such a clause in a settlement could be set aside by the courts but that is no reason whatever for general abolition of it and I think that in introducing this section we are merely following an example that was set in England some years ago and, I think, was set with very doubtful wisdom. There is this very unfair part of this provision, that it applies to past settlements and wills as well as to future ones. As regards future wills, really no difficulty would arise because, even if the section is passed in the form in which it is now, it would be a very simple matter for a draftsman, even with the section as it stands, to draft a clause that would give exactly the same protection to a woman but the effect of passing the section in this way is that you are upsetting retrospectively perfectly valid dispositions which were made in the past by people for the protection of the daughter or the woman. I feel that that is wrong and I do not think that we ought to do it.

There has been a good deal said as regards Section 2, which gives the right to the wife to take actions against the husband. That is a thing that really should be considered very carefully and very fully because one would have to try to follow out what are the consequences of it and where does it lead us. As it stands in the Bill, it looks a very good thing and a very sensible thing. It seems clearly a sensible thing that the wife should have exactly the same rights as any other individual to protect herself or her property against her husband, but what may be the consequences of that when the law begins to work on it? Is it to apply both ways? Is the husband to have exactly the same rights against the wife and, if he is, how far are the wife's rights being irretrievably damaged?

One very important part of a marriage ceremony is that the husband gives his wife the right to his property or goods. Of course, to a large extent, in practice, that is nonsense nowadays because it does not mean that the wife gets all the husband's investments or anything like that, but it does mean that she gets very great rights in many ways to his property, to live in his house and use his things — to do all sorts of things. If the Bill were passed in its present form, it undoubtedly means that the wife can prevent her husband from interfering with any of her property. That is a very sensible and a very just thing and I fully agree with it but does the corollary apply? Does it now mean that the wife is really left with no rights whatever against her husband? It seems to me that, as the Bill stands in that respect, it wants a great deal of consideration and it seems to be quite possible that, as drawn at present, this Section 2 may have extraordinary results and may have results which might be very injurious to the married woman.

I do not propose to say anything more on this stage. The Bill is obviously a most important one. In dealing with the status of married women it is really dealing with the status, not of half the population, but of the whole population because it cuts both ways and it is obviously a Bill which requires very careful discussion on Committee and later stages.

I have frequently in this House, both from this position and from the position opposite, protested that there should be a truce to legislation, that the House and the country would benefit very much if, for a period of, say, 12 months, no Bills at all, except a Finance Bill, were introduced. I have also often protested against legislation by reference. I should like to say that this Bill certainly seems to me to be the kind of measure that is highly desirable. I should like to say also that it is a most admirable example of legislation which tends to clearness and simplicity in the law.

The Bill is not only clear and simple but it is also, of course, progressive in so far as it brings our law more into line with the actual position of women in our society. Until these two Bills here this evening, I have never before seen a side-note in a Bill which said that a provision of a Bill was new. There is no objection to what is put into a side-note because I understand that side-notes are not part of the law but I think it was an excellent idea and I should like to congratulate the Minister and his Department on the idea of furnishing us with a Bill where there is no necessity to refer to any other Act and where also you can see by looking down the side-notes what sections of it introduce new things into the law.

I am not quite right in saying that there is no reference at all. There is one reference, as far as I can see it, to the meaning of the word "adopted child" but that is in an Act passed only a few years ago — 1952. From that point of view, therefore, it seems to me that the Minister is to be congratulated, as Senator Cox has said, in making this Bill a clarification of the law. It is an entirely desirable form of legislation that there should be codification and there should be an advance.

I should like to congratulate the Minister also on his speech although I did think from parts of the speech that he represented the state of matrimony as rather a state of war. His vocabulary suggested that matrimony was a kind of armed conflict, with boiling points, actions, attacks and defences, and occasional periods of peace. However, I presume that was really not intended.

There is one other thing also that ought to be said about this Bill before one deals with the details of it in Committee. That is that a great many married women will not be in the slightest bit concerned with it, either because they have no property — and they are a considerable number — or because they have no quarrel with their husbands, no bones of contention, no fear of common assault and no fear of slander and no desire to take an action for tort or for anything else. At the same time, I think it is true to say that the Bill recognises the progress that has been made and that it brings the law into a state with which we would be in general agreement.

The Bill is entirely a Bill for Committee. Accordingly, I do not propose to deal with it in detail. Senator Kissane raised the point that there was a temptation in the Bill for a married woman to bring her husband into court. Surely anyone who has any experience of life at all must agree that it can be a temptation only to a married woman who is already in a state of concealed warfare with her husband. The provision in the Bill will certainly have no effect in making the situation any worse than it is at present. I do not think that the prospect in this Bill that a wife may bring her husband into court is likely to change a relationship which is already reasonably happy.

It is difficult to meet the points Senator Kissane raised, because he asked us what was the experience in the United States of America and said that, if we told him what it was, then it would not be an analogy with this country at all. I am inclined to agree with him that it would be difficult to find a place where the position of women is quite the same as it is here. I doubt if there is any place in which married women have as much power as they have in this country. It is very difficult to find an analogy by which to be guided.

It is interesting, by the way, that one of the points raised by Senator Kissane was also raised in the Dáil, yet no amendment was put down in the Dáil and no attempt was made to alter the Bill in that direction. The Senator also made the point that a wife should be allowed to sue in tort for detinue and conversion. She can do that already, and the Bill does allow her to sue her husband for such matters as civil assault and slander.

The position in the United States was alluded to in the Dáil and the Attorney-General cited judges in the U.S.A. and said that the dark forebodings of the judiciary were not borne out by experience. I agree with Senator Kissane that the question of experience in the United States is not perhaps quite applicable to our circumstances, which are quite different. As I said, the Bill is one which can be better discussed in Committee.

Senator Cox has raised a very interesting point with regard to the power of a man making a settlement upon his daughter to prevent anticipation. You are in the difficulty, of course, that you cannot regard a woman as an equal person and at the same time regard her as somebody who must have protection as if she were not equal at all. I think that Senator Cox's point deserves consideration.

I would suggest that we allow at least a fortnight to elapse before we take the Committee Stage. Of course, if Senators require a longer period there would be no difficulty in arranging it. The question of amendments will be considered at the next stage. I should like to congratulate the Minister upon the general context, the general form of the Bill and on the fact that the Bill notably lacks the difficulties which have been part of our legislation. It has been almost impossible to read some other Bills unless one was surrounded by statutes and skilled in studying these statutes which, after all, very few are. The Minister and his Department are to be congratulated.

As other Senators have stated, this Bill with its marginal notes, introduced and explained by the Minister, has been presented to the House in an admirable form. All concerned with its presentation and drafting are to be complimented. The alterations proposed in the Bill are consistent with modern outlook and modern approach to the rights and privileges of the married woman and her property. This is especially the case now when so many married women are earning money and have savings.

Undoubtedly, the provision in regard to restraint on anticipation is now only occasionally used in wills, but the settling of property on married women, usually prior to their marriage, did create from time to time great hardships for creditors and others. I feel that it was also sometimes a shock to husbands when they discovered the true position. In these days I think a woman has a great deal more to say on the question of whom she will marry. It is only right, therefore, that she would have more discretion in dealing with her dowry. I feel that now, with the high rate of taxation and death duties, dowries are not as common or as large as they were in the old days. They certainly were never a feature in the life of the part of Ulster with which I am familiar.

On account of the provisions contained in Section 11 of the Bill, I fear much injustice could be done to a woman's creditors if this restraint on anticipation were not removed. It is only right that if married women are to have equal legal rights with single women they should also have equal responsibilities with men. The present liability of a husband for a wife's torts was often unfair. For instance, a most amiable and peaceful husband, minding his own business, could be made liable for the slanders of his wife at a golf club or bridge party in another part of the country. The amendment of the law in this respect is desirable and will afford protection to husbands in such cases.

Senator Cox referred to the position concerning a married woman who dies intestate, and I am glad to note that it is proposed to introduce a new Administration of Estates Bill. The present law is that when a married woman dies intestate leaving a husband and family, the husband is entitled to all her estate to the exclusion of her children. I consider that law unjust. It could mean in extreme cases that a married man who died a short time after marriage could leave all his estate to his widow. Subsequently there is a child of that marriage and later still that widow remarries and dies intestate. Her second husband would be entitled to her complete estate to the exclusion of her first husband's child. I trust it will not be long until a new Bill rectifies that undesirable position so that a married woman's estate will devolve in the same way as those of husbands, at least as far as her family are concerned.

As the Minister has pointed out great hardships have occurred from time to time where women passengers in vehicles were injured, sometimes seriously, by the negligent driving of their husbands despite the fact that there was a comprehensive policy of insurance. These anomalies will be removed by Section 2 (2) of this Bill. Whether, however, the sub-section is too wide in permitting all classes of actions of tort and contract to be brought by a married woman against her husband or vice versa is open to question. We have already heard to-night various viewpoints on that subject. Such a provision enabling such actions against a spouse is apparently not acceptable in most cases and only time will tell whether or not they will have undesirable consequences. At any rate, as the Attorney-General pointed out in the other House, it might be desirable that such actions, apart from the running down cases where an insurance company is involved, should be heard in camera at the discretion of the court. If this view was accepted by this House, would it not be desirable that such a provision should be embodied in this Bill or would it be sufficient to incorporate it in the rules of court?

Senator Cox also referred to the position concerning the right of a widow to the guardianship of her infant children. At present she has no absolute right to such guardianship, though given preference, but evidence is required that she is a fit and proper person. I consider that a widowed mother should automatically have the guardianship of her children as of right, unless serious reason is shown to the contrary. Perhaps the Minister would consider that viewpoint when the Committee Stage is being brought before this House.

I should like to associate myself with those Senators who have praised the Bill in general terms. I think it is true to say that in the Dáil, as I read the debate, the opposition to the Bill seemed to me a little too strong and a little unfair, and I think that the consideration of the Bill in the Seanad has been more constructive. Personally, I am glad to see the genuine concern of so many Senators that justice be given to married women. On previous occasions I have attempted to persuade Senators to vote with me in that regard, but not with conspicuous success. However, I take this as a sign of enlightenment spreading, and the Minister and his Department are to be congratulated on that account too.

The Bill is good, as has been said, technically. It is not by any means an uncomplicated subject; yet it remains clear. It is excellent in intention, and good in its general effect. The Title is perhaps a little deceptive, because it covers quite a bit more than married women's status. It deals quite a lot with the limitation of liability for married men, but that is concealed in sections and paragraphs not mentioned, as I think it ought to be, in the Title; because at least part of the purpose of the Bill is to liberate the married man from certain disabilities and liabilities under which he labours at the moment. I feel it would be franker to recognise that in the Title of the Bill itself.

Senator Hayes, I think, mentioned the fact that it is reasonable to ask for equal responsibility from women now that they have been granted equal rights. I am afraid the suggestion is too lightly made sometimes that they have in fact been granted equal rights, whereas of course in Ireland, though they have been granted many rights, they have not, even under this Bill, been granted equal rights. There is a large number of concessions, and certain concessions which I think are very valuable, but the Bill does not go quite all the way. I do not think it goes all the way that was suggested by the Minister himself.

In the long title to the Bill the liabilities of husbands are mentioned, and that refers to many sections. Sections 10, 11 and 14 are framed specifically to liberate husbands from awkward liabilities. I have been told on at least two occasions in this House —I think it was when dealing with the Local Government Bill and the Civil Service Regulation Bill — that that was not the time to suggest that married women should be allowed to continue in employment whether they were married or not. It was suggested to me in a friendly way by many Senators that what we needed was a general Bill to deal with the general principle of the status of married women and whether or not they should remain in employment though married, rather than to tinker with the problem, as it were, and try to amend individual Bills, like the Civil Service Regulation Bill and others.

Therefore, I should regard this Bill as an admirable opportunity for suggesting that certain disabilities which married women suffer in the Civil Service, for instance, should be removed under, say, Section 2 of this Bill which says that "subject to this Act a married woman shall be capable" of this, that and the other thing. I should like to see another paragraph added to that, that she shall be capable of seeking or entering, or continuing in employment as if she were unmarried. I confidently trust that those Senators who assured me that if the general principle were to be put in some all-embracing Bill they would strongly consider supporting it, will do so when I come to put down such an amendment to Section 2.

I notice that Section 19, on the other hand, fails to remove a disability existing at present in relation to married women. Section 19 says:—

"Nothing in this Act shall be construed as requiring or authorising any body corporate to admit a married woman to be the holder of any shares therein, contrary to any enactment, charter, by-law, articles of association or deed of settlement regulating that body."

There may be very strong legal reasons for that. You might not want to tamper with this, that and the other. You might not have the power under such a Bill as this to tamper with such holy documents as charters. Nevertheless we should note incidentally that this type of disability upon married women stands unremoved by the terms of this Bill.

Senator Cox has referred to Section 6, and he has told us he will be putting down an amendment to it, with which I shall find myself very much in sympathy. This section deals with restriction on anticipation; the present position, as I understand it, being that it is within the power of, say, a father bequeathing property to his daughter to prevent her from anticipating the value of that property for the benefit of her husband or anybody else. I consider that the right to do that — not the obligation to do that — could be a valuable one; it could be one that might even be appreciated and wanted by the married woman herself, who might in certain circumstances be quite glad to be able to say to a drunken or dissolute husband: "I am sorry, but I cannot realise this property." We are trying under Section 6 to remove that restriction on anticipation. I think that that is a bad thing. I agree with Senator Cox and I look forward to supporting him.

The Minister, in concluding, said that we had, in this State, freed married women from many legal restrictions, and then he went on to say that we are now abolishing legal restrictions on married women altogether. I am afraid that he went too far in that. We are not in fact abolishing all restrictions; there are certain disabilities remaining. A married woman teacher gets dismissed because she has committed the indiscretion of getting married. A woman civil servant gets dismissed on marriage also. That might be defended in some ways, but one certainly cannot say that there is no restriction on the married woman. I should like to see this Bill going further, before I would agree with the Minister that in relation to the treatment of the married woman we are the "most advanced country in the world." I think he is too optimistic. There is also the law of devolution of property and the law relating to the guardianship of children. I would join with those Senators who welcome the Bill, even though it may not go all the way suggested by the Minister.

This Bill confers rights on married women which they have not hitherto possessed and I am wondering if the Minister has given any consideration to the effect that this Bill will have on the marriage rate. It is low enough already but it might seem to some shy and hesitant swain that this is putting further obstacles in his way. He might be one of those wary gentlemen who would like to be sure that he would be the member of the matrimonial team who would always wear the trousers and, if it were to be different, he would think twice before entering into this bond. He might be one of those people who would be inclined to go to the "local" and be a bit talkative when he goes home. He would have to be careful of his words, especially if his mother-in-law were present, or he might find himself faced with an action for slander.

I was glad to hear Senator Sheehy Skeffington say that he was supporting this Bill because it confers equality of rights on the sexes. That attitude is somewhat different from the one he adopted earlier this evening in a motion to confer certain privileges on one of the sexes. I should like to say that I am supporting this measure subject to any changes that may be made on the Committee Stage. I think it is long overdue and I think the amendments mentioned by Senator Cox are very important.

With regard to Senator Sheehy Skeffington's reference to the concluding words in my speech, I said that it will free the married woman from restrictions imposed on her by law. The restriction on married lady teachers is not imposed by the law as far as I know. It is imposed by administrative action.

I thank the Senators for the manner in which they have met this Bill and the co-operation they have given me. We can deal with all the matters that have been raised when we come to the Committee Stage. Senator Cox referred to intestacy and I am wholeheartedly in sympathy with the views he expressed. I consider that the rights of a widow to property should be the same as a husband's. We are already engaged in considering that matter and I hope soon to introduce a comprehensive Administration of Estates Bill to simplify, codify and improve many of the injustices of the present law of intestacy.

It is pleasant for a Minister to come in here with a non-controversial Bill and to have the Seanad discuss it in a non-Party way in order to see what is the best thing to do. It is my desire as far as possible in the Bills which I introduce, being a layman, to try to give information to the other non-lawyers so as to save them the trouble of wading through law books and statutes to find out what a particular section means. We can deal with all the points which were raised on the Committee Stage when we will consider them sympathetically. In the meantime my Department will consider them.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 30th January, 1957.
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