Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Dec 1957

Vol. 48 No. 14

An Bille um Thionscail na Gaeltachta, 1957—An Dara Céim (d'atógaint).

D'ath-thairgeadh an cheist: "Go léifear an Bille an Dara hUair anois".

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Ag caint dhom aréir, rinne mé tagairt dos na fáthanna atá le cabhair fé leith do thabhairt do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Fé mar adúirt mé anseo ar ócáid eile, má theastaíonn uainn rud fónta a dhéanamh do mhuintir na Gaeltachta ar mhaithe leis an nGaeilge agus ar mhaithe leis na daoine a chónaíonn ann, ní foláir dúinn beith sásta íobairt a dhéanamh ar a son agus ní foláir go mbeidh muintir na tíre ar fad sásta an íobairt sin do dhéanamh—sé sin, má táimíd i ndáiríribh maidir le hathbheochaint na Gaeilge nó maidir leis an nGaeilge do chaomhnú agus do choimeád beo sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht agus ansin í do leathnú amach chun taoide na Galltachta do chur siar. Tá fhíos ag gach aoinne go bhfuil an taoide sin ag rith in ar gcoinnibh le blianta anuas. Muna gcuirtear taoide na Galltachta siar, tiocfaidh meath ar an nGaeilge agus, a gcionn fiche bliain, nó mar sin, is ar éigin a bheidh Fíor-Gaeltacht ann ar chor ar bith. Dá dheascaibh sin, tá an Bille seo ana-thábhachtach, fé mar a bheadh aon iarracht a deinfí ar son na Gaeltachta.

Rinne mé tagairt aréir, freisin, do sceim atá in aigne an Aire, Scéim na Muc. Dúras gur cheapas gur scéim thairbheach í agus go mbeidh fonn ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta an scéim sin d'oibriú. Acht 'sí an fá is mó go ndúirt mé gur ceart go n-éireodh leis an scéim sin ná go bhfuil sí bunaithe ar an talamh agus, freisin, ar dhúchas na ndaoine. Tá fhios againn go léir gur ins an Ceanntair Chúnga is mó a bhí an tionscail sin mar thaca do na ndaoine, tionscail na muc. Má leantar ar aghaidh leis an scéim sin, sílím go raghaidh sí go mór chun tairbhe na ndaoine ann.

Molaim don Aire, friesin, machnamh do dhéanamh maidir le scéim eile a bheadh tairbheach do mhuintir na Gaeltachta bhféidir, sé sin, Scéim na gCearc. Sílim go mb'fhéidir linn an tionscal sin do bhunú sa Ghaeltacht agus go raghadh sí chun tairbhe na ndaoine. Leis na gabháltais bheaga atá ag na daoine sa Ghaeltacht, sílim go mb'fhéidir tionscail bheaga den tsaghas sin do bhunú ann. Bh'fhéidir go mbeadh ar chumas na ndaoine teagascóirí ar éinlaithe clós do bheith acu a thabharfadh méar an eolais dóibh ar conus dul ar aghaidh leis an scéim. Is fiú machnamh a dhéanamh ar sin. Tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh an tAire eolas dúinn ar a smaointe 'ina thaobh sin nuair a bheas deireadh á chur aige leis an díospóireacht seo.

Do mholas, freisin, gur cóir nuair a beifear ag machnamh ar cheist tionscail do bhunú sa Ghaeltacht, cuimhniú ar dhuchas áite do choimeád i gcónaí. Ar a shon sin, rinne mé tagairt don iascaireacht. Tionscal bunúsach dúchasach is ea an iascaireacht agus is aisti a gheibheann a lán daoine sa Ghaeltacht a slí beatha. Ní fheicim ó thalamh an domhain cad na thaobh ná beadh ceangal idir an tionscal seo agus an bord seo atá le cur ar bun mar gheall ar gur tionscal é atá ag na daoine sa Ghaeltacht leis na cianta.

An fear mór-cháiliúil úd, Tomás Ó Criomhthain, a scríobh an leabhar úd An tOileánach, is as an tionscal sin a bhain sé a shlí beatha amach agus na daoine atá sa gceantar sin inniu is don tionscal sin atá siad ag gabháil agus is as atá siad ag fáil a slí bheatha. Sin é an fáth gur dóigh liom gur ceart go mbeadh údarás éigin ag an Aire agus ag an mBord aire éigin a thabhairt don tionscal sin.

Do bhí díospóireacht againn anso tráth bhí Aireacht na Gaeltachta dhá cur ar bun agus rinne mé tagairt don rud sin ach ba leis an Roinn Talmhaíochta an fho-Roinn sin. Bhí an fho-Roinn sin ceangailte leis an Roinn Talmhaíochta. Do mholas féin an uair sin go ndéanfaí an fho-Roinn sin den Roinn Talmhaíochta a cheangal le Roinn na Gaeltachta ach níor deineadh sin agus níor deineadh fós é. Tá súil agam go ndéanfar é sin. Ansan, ta tionscail eile ann a Juaigh an tAire agus tá cuid acu san, leis, bunaithe ar an talmh. Tá tionscal na dtrátaí agus tionscal na dtithe gloine ann a cuireadh ar bun cúpla bliain ó shin. Deirtear liom go bhfuil ag éirí leo go maith. Sa Tuaisceart agus i gContae Mhuigheo measaim a cuireadh ar bun iad san.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Mícheál Ó Moráin)

I gContae na Gaillimhe.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Níor cuireadh aon chuid díobh ar bun sa Ghaeltacht theas. Tá súil agam nach fada go dtí go gcuirfear ar bun iad sa Ghaeltacht theas. Tá slí ann dóibh. Tá margadh ann do na torthaí a thiocfadh asta.

Do léas cuntas le déanaí i dtaobh an mhéid airgid atá ag imeacht as an tír ar thrátaí agus in aon dá mhí amháin, i Mí Meithimh agus i Mí Iúil, do dhíolamar £200,000 as trátaí a tháinig chugainn on Ollóinn. Taispeáneann sin go bhfuil margadh anso do na trátaí a thiocfadh as na tithe gloine. Is scéim mhaith í sin. Tá suíl agam go leithnófar í.

I gCiarraí féin tá dhá Ghaeltacht ann. Tá Gaeltacht Chorca Dhuibhne agus Gaeltacht Uíbh Ráthach ann. Ansan tá Gaeltacht Chorcaighe theas ann agus tá an-chuid le déanamh sa límistéir sin tíre fós. Táim dá lua sin mar tá gá le tionscalú sna límistéiri sin.

Tá an imirce ag cur as dóibh ansin leis na blianta fada anuas agus tá na daoine bocht ann. Níl acu ach gabháltaisí beaga talún agus má tá clanna móra sna límistéirí sin is éigin dóibh a n-áit dhúchais d'fhágaint chun a slí bheatha do bhaint amach in áiteanna eile.

Maidir leis an imirce agus an bánú atá ar siúl sa Ghaeltacht le fada, do léas i bpáipéar éigin—ní fheadar an bhfuil an ceart ann—go bhfuil líon na gcainteóirí dúchais ag dul i laghad— míle duine in aghaidh na bliana—sa Ghaeltacht. Ní fheadar an ceart é sin? Ba mhaith liom—mura bhfuil an ceart sa méid sin—dá gceartaíodh an tAire é—míle duine in aghaidh na bliana.

Professor Hayes

Ag imeacht?

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Sea, líon na gcainteóirí dúchais. Ní go Sasana ná go Meiriceá atá cuid acu ag dul ach go Baile Átha Cliath agus go dtí cathracha eile in Éirinn. Maidir le tionscail teallaigh nó tuaithe, is maith liom a chlos ón Aire go bhfuil ag éirí go maith le tionscal na mbabóg agus na mbreágán.

De réir mar chloisim, tá teacht isteach maith ag an muintir go bhfuil an tionscal sin acu. Ní fheadar an bhféadaí iad san do leathnú mar tá margadh maith ann dá leithéidí. Is dóigh liom gur féidir cuid acu san do dhíol thar lear—cuid de na bréagáin. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil ard-mheas orthu sna tíortha thar lear sna háiteanna ina ndíoltar iad. Más mar sin atá an scéal, más féidir margadh níos leithne d'fháil dóibh, ní fheicim cad na thaobh ná raghfaí ar aghaidh leis an tionscal sin.

Maidir leis an mbreidín. tionscail maith é sin atá ar siúl sa tír seo leis na cianta. Do réir an chúntas a fuaramar ón Aire, díoladh luach £276,000 den bhréidín sa bhliain 1956-57. Díoladh leath an méid sin sa bhaile agus fuaireamar leath an méid sin airgid ar earraí bréidín sa bhaile. Rud an-mhaith é sin agus bhíos ag cuimhneamh go bhféadfar cur leis an tionscal seo ionas go mbeimíd in ndon níos mó bréidín a dhíola sa bhaile as seo amach. Chun é sin a dhéanamh, caithfimíd a lán stocaireacht a chur ar bun, ag cur in iúl do na daoine chomh breágh agus chomh deas is atá an bréidín agus ag cur in a luí orthu gurbh fhearr i bhfad dóibh a gcuid airgid a chaitheamh sa bhaile seachas é a chur thar lear ag ceannacht rudaí eachtranacha. Sa chaoi sin, bheidís ag tabhairt obair dá muintir fhéin. Ba cheart an scéal sin a chur abhaile ar na daoine.

Tá fás mór tagaithe ar na tionscail sin agus ní mór eagraíocht nua a chur ar bun chun go mbeidís i ndon seasamh ar a mbonna féin i gcoinne coimhlinnt na tíre thar lear. Caithfaimíd leis eagraíochta eile a chur ar bun seachas an eagraíocht le haghaidh na hearra atá luaite agam chun earraí eile a chur ar an margadh. Aontaíom gur maith an rud an bord seo do chur ar bun. Ba mhaith liom a rá, áfach, gur cheart daoine éifeachtacha a chur ar an mbord sin, daoine a mbeidh a gcroí san obair, daoine maithe gnótha. Caithfidh na daoine a bheas ar an mbord seo a bheith go dúthrachtach i mbun a gcuid oibre. Sílim gur maith an rud go mbeidh saoirse ar leith ag an mbord ionas go mbeidís indon dul ar aghaidh leis an obair go luath. Is maith an rud freisin go mbeidh ar an mbord tuarascáil a chur ar fáil gach bliain.

Is iad Alt 25 agus Alt 26 den Bhille seo is mó le rá, mar is iad na haltanna seo a thugann an t-údarás don Aire chun an t-airgead a chur ar fáil agus is í ceist an airgid bun agus bárr na scéimeanna seo. Tá sé curtha síos an Alt 26, is dóigh liom, go mbeidh suim áirithe curtha ar fáil ó am go ham agus sé an suim atá luaithe ná leath mhilliún púnt. Níl fhios agam i gceart céard a chiallíonn an abairt sin "ó am go ham" nó cén caiteachas a bheas ann. Is dócha go mbeidh ar an mbord obair dá réir——

Mícheál Ó Moráin

Beidh teacht isteach ann freisin.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Ba cheart nach mbeadh bac airgeadais ar an mbord— go mbeidís indon dul ar aghaidh leis an obair gan a bheith ag cuimhneamh ar airgead ar feadh an ama. Ba cheart nach mbeadh aon easpa airgid ann. Ag tabhairt fén obair seo, tionscalú na Gaeltachta, ní mór dúinn a thuiscint nach ionann na coinníoleacha a ghabhann léi agus na coinníolacha a gabhfas le tionscalú ins na háiteanna sa Ghalldacht, mar a bhfuil níos mó daoine agus mar a bhfuil córas iompair agus gach rud mar sin in aice leo. Tá mé ag caint faoi na háiteanna a tionnscalú ins an nGalltacht. Is mór an deifríocht a dheineann sé sin agus sin é an fá go gcaithfidh an Rialtas cabhair fé leith a thabhairt do mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

Is ar mhaithe le teanga na Gaeilge a déanfar é go mór-mhór. Is ionann sin is a rá go gcaithfidh muintir na tíre uile obair a dhéanamh ar son muintir na Gaeltachta, mar is é cúram na tíre uile an teanga a choimeád beo agus a láidriú. Caithfidh mé tagairt a dhéanamh an seo do scéimeanna eile bhfuil ceangal acu leis an mBille seo. Céard faoi Scéim na Muc? Is dóigh liom go bhfuil an scéim sin faoi na coistí talmhaíochta faoi láthair. Is ag oifigígh na gcoistí seo atá obair na scéime sin agus measaim go mba cheart liaison áirithe a bhunú idir an bord nua agus na coistí chun an scéim sin agus a macsamhail a oibriú agus a chur chun cinn. Baineann an rud céanna le ceist na hiascaireachta. Má táthar le dul chun cinn a dhéanamh san tionscail sin ba cheart go mbeadh oifigigh ar fáil chun cabhair a thabhairt agus ba cheart go mbeadh na hoifigigh sin indon Gaeilge a labhairt.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Sin í an cheist ar fad.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Sin í cheist mhór. Scéimeanna bunúsach iad seo ar fad. Sé an chuspóir atá acu ná teanga na Gaeilge a leathnú agus a láidriú ins na háiteanna a bhfuil na scéimeanna seo ar siúl. Dár ndóigh, má táimíd dáiríribh i dtaobh aithbheochaint na Gaeilge, ní bhéidh aon chorabhuais orainn mar gheall ar sin. D'fhéadfaí a rá mar mhalairt air sin gúr dhein muintir na Gaeltachta obair ar son na hÉireann agus go bhfuilid á dhéanamh fós. Mar gheall ar sin, níl san obair atámuid á dhéanamh anois ach aisíoc le muintir na Gaeltachta i ngeall ar obair atá déanta acu cheana. Rud luachmhar iseadh an Ghaeilge agus is fiú na costaisí. Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Bhille seo agus tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leis. Guidhim rath Dé ar an obair.

Mr. O'Quigley

First of all, I wish to join in congratulating the Minister on his appointment and, coming as I do from the same town, I have a special pleasure in wishing him every success in his office.

This Bill, as I understand it, is confined mainly to the establishment of a board to replace the existing Civil Service system of operating the rural industries. A good deal has been said about the general position of the Gaeltacht and much reference has been made to many other matters which might engage the attention of the Minister. Senator Ó Siochfhradha last night referred to forestry, fishing and agriculture and Senator Ó Ciosáin also stressed the importance of these matters. However, it seems to me there is another way in which the prosperity of the people in the Gaeltacht could be increased, and increased both to their benefit and to the benefit of the Irish language itself, that is, by some scheme, of a wider character than seems to be in operation at the present time, for bringing more and more people into the Gaeltacht for the purpose of drinking from that well which has been referred to by Senator Ó Siochfhradha.

If we established some kind of local tourist industry in the Gaeltacht areas, there would immediately be a good reason for people remaining in the Gaeltacht. There would be the additional source of revenue not only from providing for holiday makers coming there to spend their holidays, but, more important still, from providing accommodation and the facilities especially for young people to acquire a knowledge of the Irish language through conversation. That is a matter which certainly might engage the attention of the Minister. It does not arise strictly relevantly on this Bill, but I have allowed myself the latitude that other speakers have allowed themselves in departing from the terms of the Bill.

With regard to the products which are coming from Gaeltacht industries, I must confess I have had great personal satisfaction in seeing those products. On the Tourist Bill last night, Senator McGuire referred to the need for marketing our typically Irish products in an attractive way. It gave me great satisfaction to see in my own home recently a product which was very attractive in itself and was packaged attractively. I looked to see who was the producer to find it was a product of Gaeltarra Éireann. That is something which will greatly assist in the development of these rural industries.

I formed the view that not enough publicity has been given to the products of the Gaeltacht. In going around the shops and seeing the variety of toys, and so on, I do not think I have noticed any distinctive tag which would identify the products of the Gaeltacht from those of other industries. It might be no harm if these goods were marked in some distinctive way which would enable people who are sympathetically disposed towards the living conditions of people in the Gaeltacht to buy those products in preference to products which are manufactured elsewhere.

From the figures given by the Minister in his speech last night, it is apparent that the Gaeltacht industries have been employing an increasing number of people and producing an increasing quantity of goods. It would be wrong for us to expect that there would be any spectacular change in the situation merely by reason of the creation of this independent board. Civil servants may not be the best business people, but they have been burdened with a great many commercial and industrial activities for a variety of reasons. In the case of Gaeltarra Éireann, they have done very well in all the circumstances, but it would be wrong to repose too much hope in the mere establishment of a board. Much will depend on the response and co-operation which the board will get in its activities.

The main object, I take it, of establishing rural industries in the Gaeltacht is to keep as many people as possible productively employed in the Gaeltacht, so that, even though it is only a small well of Irish, it will always be there. Recently, in answer to a parliamentary question in the Dáil, the wage rates of some of the workers in the rural industries were quoted. It struck me that the wage rates were extremely low, much lower, I am certain, than would be sufficient to keep people in other industries in continuous employment. There would be a great deal of trade union activity, I should imagine, if the wage rates in other industries were as low as they are in the Gaeltacht industries. These low wage rates may be a difficulty inherent in the situation in which the Gaeltacht industries find themselves, but I certainly take the view that, unless the income of the people employed in these industries is considerably increased, the tendency, about which Senator Ó Ciosáin has spoken, of so many people to leave the Gaeltacht will continue and will continue proportionately as employment in other parts of the country is able to offer better wages, apart altogether from the attraction that wage rates in England provide for people as against employment in this country.

That will be one of the great problems with which the board will be faced, to increase the wage rates in such a way as to give a fairly decent standard of living to people in the Gaeltacht. People in the Gaeltacht have the same aspirations and desires as people anywhere else in the country and, merely for love of the language, they will not stay in the Gaeltacht and spend their time producing the different commodities which are being produced there at relatively low rates of wages.

There are a few matters of importance in the Bill to which I should like especially to draw the Minister's attention. I understand that there are a number of people who have been employed at Gaeltarra Éireann as manageresses in the different industries and who have had long service. If these people had continued under the present system, I imagine that in time they would become entitled to superannuation benefits. I notice that there is provision in the Bill for the establishment of a superannuation scheme by the board, but the board may feel that it has not had these people in its employment for sufficiently long to warrant their giving such people credit for upwards of 30 years' service.

People who have been so long in the employment of the Gaeltacht industries and who have rendered such good service should be very fairly treated in the matter of pensions, and the establishment of this board should not prejudice their rights. I would ask the Minister to say if he has in mind any direction to the board which would make it obligatory on them to give a pension to these people who would, if this board were not established, be entitled to superannuation.

There is another matter which I should like to mention to the Minister at this stage. The members of the board will be appointed by the Minister and may be removed by the Minister. I do not know whether that is common form in the case of boards established by statute. If it is, I suppose it is very difficult to pull against well-established precedent. I do think that in the case of boards of this kind, where there may be varied views on the best way of tackling various problems, differences may arise. Even sharp differences of opinion may arise between the Minister—not necessarily the present Minister, but the Minister for the Gaeltacht of the time—and the members of the board, which might necessitate the Minister's removing such persons from office.

I should be happier if there were some provision that members of the board would be appointed by the Minister but removed by the Government. Two heads are wiser than one, and on that principle, I suggest that the several heads, combined in Government, might take a broader view, than the particular Minister at the time, on the occasion of a difference or a sharp conflict arising between a member of the board and the Minister.

There is also the question of the existing employees of Gaeltarra Éireann. The board is entitled to stand in the shoes of the Minister for the Gaeltacht, who at present employs these people, and to continue their contract of service. I think it is common form in the case of the establishment of statutory boards that there is always a special safeguard for people who have been in the employment of a board by giving them the same conditions of service, or an undertaking that their conditions of service will not be worsened.

I wonder has the Minister in mind that it would be his direction to the board, or that his view would be expressed to the board, that these people should not have their conditions of service worsened and that they would be removed or discharged from employment only for reasons similar to those for which they could be removed or discharged at the present time. It is customary, as I say, to preserve existing staff and present rights on a change-over such as is taking place on the occasion of the establishment of this board.

One other matter to which I should like to draw attention is that there has been some disquiet raised in the public mind by reason of questions asked in the Dáil concerning certain operations of the board.

An Cathaoirleach

No questions may be asked regarding the operations of this board.

Mr. O'Quigley

Regarding the operations of Gaeltarra Éireann. I pass no comment whatever, and offer no judgment, on any matters discussed in the Dáil, but if there is any ground for the disquiet that has been created, I recommend to the Minister for his consideration that he might postpone the bringing into operation of this Bill, until such time as these matters have been cleared up. There is a motion at present before Dáil Éireann calling for an inquiry into certain matters affecting the operation of Gaeltarra Éireann. I think it would get the board off to a bad start if it began its activities with a problem, or with the idea that it had a problem, on its hands. The new board, starting off on such important business as this Bill contemplates, should not suffer from any handicap that could be avoided.

I ask the Minister to give special consideration to the advisability of postponing the nominations on the appointed day, as he is entitled, until such time as these matters have been cleared up one way or the other.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

I shall make what comments I have to make on this Bill in English because I regard the Bill as of great importance to the non-Irish speaking people in the country. It is of just as great importance as it is to the Irish speaking people of the Gaeltacht whom it directly concerns because, in my opinion, the co-operation and the goodwill of all the people are essential, if the work to which we are putting our hands is to be a success. As Senators who have spoken previously have affirmed, the Gaeltacht is contracting rapidly. The clock is approaching midnight and there is not much time left. This Bill is undoubtedly a constructive effort to halt the decay of the Gaeltacht. It is a dual purpose Bill; it seeks to keep our people at home by giving them work and seeks also to save and to strengthen the language in the few remaining areas in which it is still the natural tongue of the people.

There is no doubt that while the expansion of home and fireside industries is an ideal way to cater for remote places, an effort must be made, a determined effort, to establish industries with a good employment content, giving wages and a standard of life as near as possible to those which workers in cities are able to achieve. The board which is being set up by this Bill to manage the transferred rural industries, and to provide new industries and productive schemes of employment in the Gaeltacht, is being set a very tough job. As Senator Ó Cíosáin said, it is not going to solve every problem and it is not going to accomplish miracles, but it can do a tremendous job of work; but to do it, as I said, it will need all the goodwill, co-operation and all the money it can get. If it gets these prerequisites, it can be a tremendous factor in saving the Gaeltacht, in strengthening the language and in expanding its influence throughout the country.

I want to avail of this opportunity to appeal to the Minister, to the Government, and to Senators that we should not be mean or cheeseparing in this effort. If we are to help to enact this Bill into law, let us go into battle with the determination that we are putting our hands to something good for the country. Let us have confidence in the worthiness of the cause and be prepared to provide whatever money is necessary to make the effort a success.

Section 4 of the Bill is the key section and I would direct special attention to sub-sections (2) and (4) which I regard as the vital portions of it. Sub-section (2) says:—

"It shall be the duty of the board to encourage the preservation and extension of the use of Irish as a vernacular language in the Gaeltacht."

Sub-section 4 (a) says that the powers conferred on the board are in addition to those mentioned already for the following purposes:—

"(b) To expand and develop in the Gaeltacht the rural industries and any industry or productive scheme of employment provided by it under this section."

Those are the two important matters to which we have put our hands and I am convinced that the board which is being set up, will, by its good example and continuous use of the Irish language in all its activities, by determined efforts in co-operation with An Foras Tionscal, the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Lands and any other Department which can help, undoubtedly be able to assist in convincing the people who still have an inferiority complex about the country and about the capability of the Irish language as a modern business vehicle, that it can measure up to all the requirements of a modern language.

I was particularly interested in the suggestion made by Senator O'Quigley who suggested one way in which the board could bring, not alone more money to the Gaeltacht, but expand the use and influence of the Irish language among people from other parts of the country. I entirely agree with him in that because I believe that the board can spread the use of Irish outside the Gaeltacht by, as Senator O'Quigley suggested, encouraging the development of the area as a holiday ground thus giving help economically to the people and putting more money in circulation.

In that connection, it might be of interest to note the forthcoming production of a Gaeltacht holiday guide in Irish by the combined efforts of Roinn na Gaeltachta, An Bord Fáilte and Comhdháil Naisiúnta na Gaeilge. It should result in a big increase in the number of language students and Irish-speaking visitors to the Gaeltacht. In addition to that it is good to note also the efforts made by Comhaltas Uladh in the North which has also launched a big publicity drive to induce school children and adults to spend their holidays in the Donegal Gaeltacht where, fortunately, there are six or seven summer colleges available to them.

Comhaltas Uladh is doing effective work and has gone to the trouble of circulating some 10,000 copies of a brochure to all schools, colleges and Gaelic League branches in Ireland and in many parts of Britain endeavouring to attract students, young and old, to the Donegal Gaeltacht. This is a trend which I hope the board will do everything possible to encourage. I think the co-operation of the new board will also be essential to make this idea a success because if they can persuade the people of the Gaeltacht who have suitable accommodation to accept holiday visitors of this type—and in order to do so they must, of course, fill in a form stating the accommodation they have available—they will be doing a very good job towards helping themselves.

In connection with Section 5 I should like to emphasise in regard to the constitution of the board that it is, in my opinion, of vital importance that the members to be appointed should know the Gaeltacht and should be familiar with its problems and difficulties. Above all, they should have business experience and I hope some knowledge of export trends and marketing. I take it they will work in close harmony with the other State bodies I have mentioned.

Section 7 also interests me because it deals with the superannuation scheme for board members and I am a little puzzled on one point in regard to that. Perhaps the Minister would enlighten me as to the definition of "whole time members of the board" who qualify for allowances, pension or gratuities on retirement.

In Section 15, I welcome sub-section (2) in so far as it ensures the selection of competent Irish speakers as officers and employees of the board, but I am a little worried by the reservation relating to persons covered by Section 22. I should like to know more about this exempted class and also about the persons who on the establishment day are carrying out duties in relation to the rural industries. In other words, I want to know how many Irish speakers are involved and is there any danger of the new board being saddled with a substantial English-speaking group?

Section 32 is a valuable part of the Bill because it gives the Dáil and Seanad information as to what will happen under the jurisdiction of the board in regard to the annual report. When that report is being prepared, I hope that the Minister will insist on a comprehensive statement about the steps taken by the board during the year to give effect to sub-section (2) of the section I have mentioned, Section 4, because that is of vital importance in the fulfilment of one of the main objectives of the Bill.

I feel the rural industries which are being transferred to the board provide a good foundation on which to build and expand but I hope to see a big increase in the 1,200 or 1,400 people who are directly and indirectly employed and a great expansion in the export trade in their products.

One matter to which both the Minister and the board should give consideration is provision for modern display and advertising in connection with these products. Practically every large-scale manufacturer has proper showroom accommodation for his products. The only large-scale manufacturer that I know of who has no proper accommodation or showroom for products is Gaeltarra Éireann. Gaeltarra Éireann is located in a disused barracks. It is an old building, completely unsuitable for displaying the type of products produced by our rural industries—tweed, linen, knitwear—and foreign buyers of these goods are at a disadvantage because of the lack of suitable display accommodation. The proposed new board will have to give early and serious consideration to the need for adequate display space. It may be essential from that point of view to consider also the possibility of either reconstructing this old building or getting a new building more suitable for the purpose we have in mind.

Irish tweeds, especially Donegal tweeds, have made tremendous progress in the last ten or 12 years in colour, in design, in variety and in weight. The sales of these cloths could be doubled or trebled with the help of some financial backing from the board. According to the experts, our tweeds carry a greater variety of design, colour and weight than Scottish tweeds. Yet, Scottish export sales from the statistics given are about ten times greater than ours. We could do with something like the Harris Association in Scotland; Irish manufacturers might give some consideration to that.

The Harris Association is based on a contribution by the manufacturers of 2d. per yard on production and the money is used to advertise Harris tweeds. It is understandable that they are thereby enabled to take advertising space to a much greater extent than we are when one remembers that that 2d. per yard on production enables the Harris Association to spend over £100,000 in advertising. If the board which we are setting up allocates a reasonable amount of money for market research in Western Europe, Scandinavia and the Middle East, that expenditure will pay handsome dividends in the space of a few years.

I have referred to tweeds and I am glad to note that the Irish Hand-weavers' Association is directly represented this week at the Congressional Committee inquiry into the operation of the quota provision which has seriously hampered and restricted the import of Irish tweeds into the U.S.A. I hope, as does every Senator, that our American friends in the Government and in the trade unions will appreciate that the handwoven tweed which we export to the United States should not be classed with machine cloth under their import regulations. I sincerely trust that the efforts of our representatives from Córas Tráchtála and the Handweavers' Association will result in an understanding by both the American Government and the trade unions that, even if they allow our handwoven tweeds into the United States, imports will represent only a drop in the ocean as compared with overall American textile production.

The position with regard to the French market is also serious and we hope that the efforts of the French Government to remedy their situation at the moment will be successful and that France will quickly overcome her internal difficulties. The French market is a big market. It is a tweed-conscious market. It was developing very rapidly and it promised to be very good. I hope the efforts made to restore it will meet with success in the very near future. The new board should not be disheartened by temporary set-backs of this kind because our tweed exports are quality goods exports and there are other markets to be won where quality goods are concerned.

I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to one Irish citizen who has done more as a trail-blazer for Irish goods in the markets of the world than all the Government agents put together. As a result of the efforts made, Irish tweed, Irish linen, Irish lace and Irish crochet are now discussed and bought in places that never dreamt of looking at Irish products not so very long ago. I refer to Miss Sybil Connolly. When the board gets an opportunity, I hope it will enlist the services of persons of her calibre and intelligence to push the products which the board will have to market.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on the Bill. I join with Senator Kissane and others in congratulating him on the inauguration of Scéim na Muc and I believe that, in due course, Scéim na Muc will take its place side by side with Scéim na Tithe Gloinne as one of the most valuable contributions to the economic improvement of the Gaeltacht.

Fé mar dúirt mé i dtosach cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo agus molaim an tAire mar gheall ar é a thabhairt isteach agus mar gheall ar an méid oibre a rinne sé. Bille tábhactach an Bille seo agus tá sé soiléir do chách go dtugann an Bille cuidiú mór don Ghaeltacht. Beidh fáilte ag muintir na Gaeltachta roimhe fósta. Táim lánchinnte gur féidir an Ghaeltacht a shábhail fós agus an teanga a choimeád beo. Níl mé in aon amhras faoi sin. Obair an-riachtanach do mhuintir na Gaeltachta atá anseo, agus cuideoidh sé le labhairt na teangan, an teanga dhúchais. Is é sin príomh-ghnó an Oireachtas, príomh-ghno an Aire, agus príomh-ghnó an bhoird nua. Tá dualgas orainn go léir agus má táimid dáiriribh faoi chás na Gaeilge caithfimíd leis an obair. Do réir mo thuairimse is é seo an iarracht is éifeachtaí fós do rinneadh chun leas na Gaeltachta. Mar gheall ar sin, cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

I should like to welcome this Bill from several points of view, principally because it seems to me to be a Bill which aims at giving practical aid to the people of the Gaeltacht, rather than being a mere expression of praise, pious hopes and more talk about the preservation of the language. It should be quite obvious that you cannot preserve the language if the people are gone and the position in the Gaeltacht to-day is that the people are going very fast. The fact that they are good Irish speakers does not in any way prevent them from emigrating from this country at a rate which ought to frighten us. I believe that this type of measure, with its emphasis on the economics of life in the Gaeltacht, is the sensible way to enable the people in the Gaeltacht to remain there and preserve their self-respect. They do not want hand-outs, Government doles and grants because they can speak Irish, nor do they merely want to live on tourists and students going to the Gaeltacht. They would far rather be given a chance to earn their own living, on their own land, through productive industries such as are envisaged by this Bill.

I do notice that in sub-section (2) of Section 4 it is felt necessary to place the first emphasis in setting out the objects of the board, as follows:—

"It shall be the duty of the board to encourage the preservation and extension of the use of Irish as a vernacular language in the Gaeltacht."

I feel that a case can be made for that. In fact, far more of a case can be made for the preservation of the language where it is the vernacular than can be made for what I regard as the misguided notion that it can eventually become the vernacular of the whole country again. While it is obvious that it is by measures such as this that you can encourage the preservation of the language where it is still spoken naturally, nevertheless, I think we ought to put ourselves on guard lest the powers given to this board be interpreted as giving them power, under that very prominently placed sub-section, to give jobs to Irish speakers. I do not think anybody, if they reflect on it, thinks of this Bill as being merely to give jobs to Irish speakers. What it wants to do is to create productive jobs, to allow the people in the Gaeltacht to hold their heads up and to stand on their own feet in their own land.

I do not think that it necessarily follows that the people who are to help them to do this, in organising industries, in organising marketing and production and so on, need necessarily themselves be fluent Irish speakers, or even, I should say, Irish speakers at all. The point I want to establish is that the main objective is to get going and extend industries in the Gaeltacht which will allow the people there to live by productive work. If we are to have a stupid, narrow idea in recruiting people to work for the promotion and development of these industries, and exclude people because of their lack of knowledge of the language alone, then I think we shall be acting against the main purposes of the Bill itself.

Mention has been made of Miss Sybil Connolly. I do not know what her knowledge of Irish is—it may be first class—but in deciding upon somebody who might give advice and help for the marketing of Irish products, if the name of Sybil Connolly were to be mentioned I do not think it would be relevant to ask her can she speak Irish. It is quite obvious that where skill, ability and knowledge ought to be put in the scale, the abilities of such a person ought to be recruited for these industries and for this board, quite irrespective of whether she herself, or such a person, has a working knowledge of Irish.

Similarly, Senator Mullins said it would be essential for people working under this board to "know the Gaeltacht well". Within certain limits that is true, but only within certain limits. I could imagine people of ability, who could give a very real contribution to developing the kind of marketing and production that is envisaged, who might in fact not have any knowledge of the Gaeltacht. I make these statements in order that we may guard ourselves against too narrow an interpretation of the qualifications we are seeking in choosing people to help in developing industries in these areas. What we really want are people of imagination, people of ability, with knowledge of things outside the Gaeltacht, and, above all, people who are disinterested—people who are not in it for what they can get out of it. The emphasis is on economics, giving the people of the Gaeltacht a chance to help themselves, and I am glad to note that this is a community effort. This is a State effort. It is a State appointed board, a State-sponsored undertaking.

Here at least we are not misled by the stupid notion that the State can never do anything good, and that if the State organises anything, we are well on the road to Communism. The State should be quite unashamed to put the strength of the community at the disposal of the individual. That is precisely what is being done under this Bill—State enterprise, State initiative —and why not? Why have we not a bit more of it?

I notice that Section 6 refers to remuneration and expenses of members of the board. It is very discreet; it does not say what they are likely to get. I do not know if they are likely to get very much money or not. I should like to ask the Minister what order of magnitude he has in mind for these fees? While I recognise the managing director in such a job should be paid, and well paid, the question presents itself as to whether it is always necessary in this country to pay members of boards like this, boards which are set up for the community good. I had occasion previously in the Seanad to refer to the two main voluntary health insurance schemes in Britain operated by the Western Providence and British United Providence Associations which are run by boards, the membership of which comprise highly skilled persons who receive no remuneration whatsoever, who give their services free in a service benefiting the community. If that concept of public service is quite "un-Irish" I should be surprised to hear it.

I should not be surprised if we got better service from a board like this, if the work were voluntary, and if it were not to be "a job for somebody." All too often we find on boards like this friends of influential people who attend meetings, but who, in fact, do not pull their weight, owing to the fact that their being on the boards is due to their connections and not to their skill. I feel that the number of such people appointed to such boards would tend to be smaller if they were not paid. Why must Irish men and women always be paid for work such as this, to which we in the Seanad are all prepared to pay lip-service as work of national importance, but for which we have to get a wage?

In asking the Minister what kind of rate of remuneration he has in mind, I would ask him to relate it to the sort of work and times of attendance expected of the ordinary members of the board. I am not speaking about the managing director. In other words, will it be a nominal fee, related to a not very onerous attendance at board meetings, or will it be a fairly fat salary related to quite a considerable amount of real work done by members of the board?

I should like to come to another point in Section 4, sub-section (4) paragraph (a), which I am glad to see. It provides that the board shall have power, not merely to expand and develop rural industries, but also any industry or "productive scheme of employment." We should welcome the fact that this Bill gives power to the board to encourage the starting, not merely of industries, but any productive scheme of employment. I welcome this paragraph because of its wideness, and the power it confers to encourage a wide variety of practical ways in which the people of the Gaeltacht may be able to earn a decent living for themselves.

We hear a great deal about the development of our seaweed industry. Our west coast is almost entirely surrounded by it. I am aware there are technical difficulties about depth, about the shelving of the sea bottom, and about the actual comparatively narrow strip under water in which certain of the valuable seaweeds grow, but I am distressed to notice that even in some of these well-developed seaweed industries in the West of Ireland the major benefit goes outside the country. All the sweat and toil, the heavy manual labour, the risky hard work in getting and collecting the seaweed, drying, handling, stacking and transporting is done on the west coast——

An Cathaoirleach

This Bill excludes activities of that kind.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

I understood that the phrase "productive schemes of employment"——

An Cathaoirleach

There is a special company dealing with seaweed products.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

I am aware of the Alginate Industries Act, but I should have thought that under this Bill, in addition to what is done by them, something else might be encouraged.

An Cathaoirleach

It is quite in order for the Senator to refer to it, but I am afraid it is not something that can be developed.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

I shall conclude on this point by suggesting that it is a pity that the final processing and marketing of our seaweed have to be done in Glasgow. I have the greatest admiration for Glasgow, but I feel that the Gaeltacht is the place where the final processing should be done. We should not say that the west coast is too poverty stricken and that we have not got the laboratories there to do that kind of thing. I feel we ought to do the processing, and I would suggest that, under this Bill, something more than the manual labour of collecting the seaweed might be done by the people of the Gaeltacht.

I do not want to develop it, but the same idea applies to our fisheries and fishing industry. It is not lack of skill that prevents the fishermen on the west coast from making a living; it is lack of capital, equipment, boats and gear, and also the marketing process. It is a heartbreaking thing to see in the markets of Paris, for instance, Irish shellfish selling at enormous prices when you know that the home fishermen, who collect the lobsters, crayfish and other shellfish, have been getting a very minimal price for them. There are far too many middlemen—not merely in this country but outside it too— attached to our fishing, and our lobster fishing in particular. I am aware that "gombeen" is a good Irish word. It is one of the words—at any rate in its normal connotation—that ought to be allowed to have only a minimal application in the marketing of the products of the people in the Gaeltacht.

Anybody studying the question of lobster fishing and marketing will realise that the people who are making the big money are the middlemen, the dealers, not the primary producers. I have seen in this House fishermen from the Maharees coming up here for the purpose of trying to get a grant in order to buy a boat for themselves. They never succeeded, of course, and most of them have emigrated long since. That is the kind of heartbreaking situation which many of the fishermen on the west coast are up against. I feel that we do not do sufficient for them, and I hope that the powers under this Bill will be used to help them in these matters.

The same applies to a number of other things, the production and marketing of early vegetables for instance, which can be done in quite a number of our west coast Gaeltacht areas. I do not want to stress particular details. I want to make the point, however, that I hope this phrase, enabling the board to expand and develop in the Gaeltacht any productive scheme of employment, will be taken to have a very wide connotation.

I should like to turn for a moment now to Section 8, which enables the Minister to remove members of the board. It just says "The Minister may at any time remove a member of the board from office". I do not think that is a good provision. It gives the Minister very arbitrary powers, and I hope the present Minister will forgive me if I suggest that some Ministers might remove the best member of the board under such a section, if he did not happen to be playing in with the particular policy of the Minister of the time. I do not think it is right to give unqualified authority to the Minister to remove any member of the board at any time with no right of appeal, with no questions asked, and with no necessity to give any explanation.

I made the same point in relation to the Prices Advisory Committees which we set up, under the Prices Bill, and I asked for an insertion in that Bill—as I propose to ask in this Bill—that the Minister should not have this power to act except on the recommendation of the committee and, here, on the recommendation of the board. I was told, in relation to the Prices Bill, that this would be an appalling thing, that you could not possibly tie the Minister only to remove people when the committee recommended him to do so. Consequently, I was amused when my attention was drawn by a fellow Senator to the fact that in the Agricultural Institute Bill just such a clause is inserted in the Schedule: "The Government may at any time, on the advice of the council, remove an ordinary member of the council from office." It seems to me that the Minister might well take good example from his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, in this respect. I do not think it is a good thing for him to ask for, or for him to be given such unrestricted power in relation to the removal from office of members of the board.

Finally, I would conclude by saying that what seems to me good in this Bill is the fact that it bases help for the Gaeltacht on local skills—local skills which admittedly need to be developed and to be given an outlet—for which I would hope, and I express the hope publicly, that a substantial portion of the final retail price will be paid to the primary producer, the worker in the Gaeltacht. I should not like to think of this as forming a scheme whereby the people of the Gaeltacht get a little bit, but the middleman and others right down to the retailer get a far bigger whack than the primary producers in the Gaeltacht for whom this Bill is intended. I would say furthermore: Let us not be afraid to spend money, but let us not lose sight of the primary aim which is to enable the people of the Gaeltacht to develop their own skills and to market the product of those skills, in a sound and, for them, lucrative market, which will guarantee that a large proportion of the value of what is produced by them will in fact be paid to them.

Mr. Ryan

I should like to join the previous speakers in welcoming this Bill as a practical approach to the problems of the Gaeltacht areas. It is generally agreed that Gaeltarra Éireann as at present constituted is a rather cumbersome and unsatisfactory body. That is not to say that it has been entirely unsatisfactory. It has achieved a great deal in its time, but it is apparent that it is very restricted in its activities and this new board could be a great improvement on the present body. It is possible that the restrictions on Gaeltarra Éireann at present may have been responsible for some of the very low piece rates which were paid to those who worked on some of the industries in the past. When the new board gets into action and has had time to bring about more efficiency in some of those industries and, as a consequence, more profits, I hope they will not only be able to improve the conditions of those working for the board but to give more employment and pay more and better piece-rates.

The most important first step the Minister will have to take is to appoint this board. I am sure he is aware that it is essential that he should appoint persons who will tackle the problems in an imaginative way. He could not do worse than to appoint persons who feel it is their duty merely to carry on, with minor administrative adjustments. This board has formidable and urgent problems to tackle. To put it simply, there is the problem of transforming the depressed area extending nearly all along the west coast into a prosperous area. They cannot do that merely by making small adjustments in what has been done up to now. They must show imagination; they must not only produce new ideas themselves but they must receive any suggestions they get in the way of new ideas, new schemes or new industries. No matter how startling they may appear at first sight, they should examine them and see whether anything may be made of them.

There are many economic and other clichés about the Gaeltacht areas as to what can be done, cannot be done or should be done. It is essential that the board accept none of these clichés. They should get down to the fundamentals and examine everything from its fundamental aspects, to see whether what has been held to be the truth, to be the facts about the Gaeltacht, is the truth, or whether they cannot be approached in an entirely new way.

In five years' time, when the board looks back on its record and its achievements, I hope they will have on record a note of several failures in the things they have tried to do during those years, because I should like them to try things which will not necessarily be successful but which have some hope of success. It would be much better for the board in five years' time to look back on 100 successful schemes and ten failures than look back on 50 successful schemes and no failures. They must experiment and take risks and, above all, try out new ideas, new schemes and new industries, if they are to turn this depressed area into a prosperous one.

In referring to Gaeltacht problems in the past, the disadvantages have always been stressed and the advantages ignored. People interested in setting up industries there talk of the difficulties of power and transport and of subsidiary services of various kinds. That attitude is largely a carry-over from 50 years ago, when it was assumed in the coal and steel area that no industry could be successful, unless it were near a coal-field and near steel and commodities of that kind. Things have changed a great deal since then. Any part of the Gaeltacht now can get first-class power from the E.S.B., rural electrification having reached most parts of the area. Most factories at the moment are run almost entirely on electricity. From that point of view, there is no disadvantage there as compared with anywhere else.

The same applies, although possibly to a lesser extent, in the case of transport. There may be some difficulty in the case of goods of a heavy nature, in getting raw materials to the Gaeltacht and getting the finished goods away. On the other hand, the western parts of Ireland are as well served with good ports as any other part. There are many products of a lighter nature which can be sent to places abroad by air. In that respect, Shannon is very convenient to most parts of the West. A very good example of what can be done in that respect is the example of the export trade in lobsters to Paris, which were sent by air and which formed a very successful type of export. As I have said, the disadvantages are stressed but they are not really as severe as they appear at first sight.

One of the tasks which the board will have to undertake is to examine and emphasise the advantages which are present in the Gaeltacht areas. There has been reference here to such things as fish and seaweed, both of which are of immense potential wealth; and the possible development in these cases is immense. In addition, there is a temperate climate in the western area which is very suitable for growing certain kinds of flowers, vegetables and so on, and which is not found elsewhere in the country. In addition, there is plenty of labour with a very high level of intelligence available, which is something that any industrialist will look for and be very glad to get. Then there is the possibility of minerals of various kinds which are awaiting development. I do not want to go into a list of these but I do say that there are many, many advantages in these areas which, if they are concentrated upon by the board, will make it possible to achieve great development of industry, agricultural schemes and various other schemes which will bring prosperity to the areas.

Part of the job of the board will be, not only to examine these potential advantages and to note them down for their own benefit, but to publicise these advantages, to sell the Gaeltacht areas, as it were, to those who might be in a position to contribute to the prosperity of the areas, to sell these advantages to industrialists and others who might establish industries there or develop schemes of one kind or another.

I presume the board will not have much to do with the tourist industry but, in so far as they have anything to do with it or can influence Bord Fáilte, they should make an effort to develop the tourist industry by providing more accommodation in these areas. There are areas such as Connemara, which is one of the most beautiful places in the world, a place which lacks nothing so far as the tourist is concerned, except accommodation. The provision of accommodation is very important, not only from the point of view of encouraging the people in the remainder of the country to visit these areas, learn the language and to have first-hand contact with the language, and so on, but from the point of view of getting people from abroad to visit these areas, people who at a later stage might contribute something towards the industry of the West.

Any intelligent person who goes to the West of Ireland, sees the countryside and realises the various potentials that need development there is likely, if he is in a position to do so, to return, not merely as a tourist but as a person who is anxious and willing to play a part in developing the area. The provision of accommodation with a view to the development of the tourist industry is important from two points of view.

Possibly a thing that is more relevant to the work of the board is the manufacture of souvenirs for tourists. We ought to be able to compete with Japan in the manufacture of Irish souvenirs and we can do so with comparatively little effort because the basis of that industry is already there. There are many things of a very attractive nature made and of a type that appeals very much to tourists but we need far more of them and in some cases we need to have them produced at a more competitive price. The Aran crios and various things like that are immensely attractive and, if developed, would fill the need of which I speak.

In that regard I should like to advert to the references which have been made to Miss Sybil Connolly, who took products of this country which were relatively unknown and made them world famous. There is a great lesson to be learned from what happened in her case because she did little or nothing to improve the product; she merely sold it, incorporated it in garments, publicised it and, by so doing, managed to sell hundreds of thousands of pounds' worth of products which had been there all the time but which up to then it was extremely difficult to sell. In regard to souvenirs, they are made in small quantities; they are very good in many cases but we need a campaign to publicise them and to sell them in a wider circle.

I wish the board every success in their efforts. They should have, and need have, no inhibitions in the manner in which they tackle this problem. They will not be restricted by red tape or by precedents because they will be a completely new board and they will have in the present Minister a man who will encourage them to approach things in a new and imaginative way. They will have a splendid opportunity of bringing new life to the western areas.

Mr. L'Estrange

I also welcome this Bill, which was prepared and framed by the previous Government and there are very little changes in it. As a matter of fact, the promise to set up a board was first mentioned by the exTaoiseach, Deputy John Costello, in a speech in October, 1956.

It is a very good idea to set up a board, especially if it is to be an independent board, divorced from Party politics. I hope the board will be as successful in dealing with the problems it has to face as the E.S.B. and Bord na Móna have been in dealing with the problems that confronted them 20 to 30 years ago.

There are many people in this country, even people who are enthusiastic about the Irish language, who are not satisfied with the work that has already been done and many people who claim that the taxpayers have not got value for the money that has been spent in the past. There are many people who are devoted to the Irish language who claim that the Irish language is dying fast and that the Gaeltacht is dwindling. Those facts cannot be denied. That is the position despite all the millions of pounds that have been spent on the Irish language and on the Gaeltacht over the past 30 to 40 years.

At the present time, as regards the Irish language and the nation, we are at the crossroads and it is time that we examined the position and discovered where we intend to go in future, review what has happened in the past and ask ourselves if it has been a success or a failure and, if we think that certain things have failed in the past, plan for the future.

As regards the board, I agree with Senator Mullins that there should be a certain number of members who know something about the Gaeltacht. There should also be men on the board with business experience, as he stated, men who know about export markets and market research. Above all, there should be on the board men of ability, integrity and independence, men who will be prepared, no matter what Government is in power, to make decisions and, if they consider that a thing is right, to go ahead and do what they think is right and put their policy and their programme into operation.

This board also should devote attention to the home market and try to initiate a "buy Irish" campaign to encourage people in this country to buy materials and goods that have been made in the Gaeltacht. If one goes into shops in Dublin, one sees Christmas presents and toys bearing the inscription "Déanta in Japan." That is deplorable in a country like this. This board should set out immediately to remedy that situation because all these things can be made in Ireland and could easily be made in the Gaeltacht. The board should also try to get Irish people, especially the ladies, more interested in wearing Irish tweeds and Irish woollens. That would develop the home market, would give much-needed employment and keep many people from emigrating from the West of Ireland. We should initiate a campaign to get more of our own people to spend their holidays in the Gaeltacht or else at home in Ireland. They should do that if they are nationally-minded. In the past, people in this country were prepared to lay down their lives for freedom. Surely it is not too much to ask them to put their own country first now.

It is considered that, at the present time, we are going through an economic crisis. If our people are really Irish, they should—at least for the duration of the economic crisis—spend their holidays in Ireland instead of going off to Paris, London, the Channel Islands, and so on. A board of the kind which is contemplated could initiate a campaign to try to get more of our people to spend their holidays perhaps in the Gaeltacht or, if not there, at least at home in Ireland. The last speaker mentioned Connemara. Certainly, it can hold its own with any place either on the Continent or in any other part of the world.

I stated before that the restoration of the Irish language and the preservation of the Gaeltacht should be taken out of the orbit of Party politics. For too long, the Irish language has been the plaything of Party politics. Undoubtedly, the people in the Gaeltacht have been fooled and disillusioned by promises and plans which were much talked of in the past. I do not want to become political in my remarks but I cannot help mentioning that I recall hearing the present Taoiseach say at Mullingar in 1932 that they, and they alone, had a plan to restore the Irish language. I hope the same fate does not befall this present project as has befallen the plan which he mentioned on that same day at Mullingar to end the Partition of our country.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Micheál Ó Móráin)

Táim fíor-bhuíoch don Teach mar gheall ar an slí inar ghlacadar leis an mBille seo i gcoitinne. Bille tábhachtach don Ghaeltacht atá ann agus tá áthas orm a fheiceáil go bhfuil an Teach seo sásta i gcoitinne cuidiú leis an mBille. Tá an Bille seo tábhachtach don Ghaeltacht ar an ábhar go gcuirfidh sé deis cheart ar fáil chun na tionscail traidisiúnta sa Ghaeltacht a chur ar a mbonna i gceart, agus a leathnú amach. Is iad na tionscail traidisiúnta, mar atá, tionscal an bréidín tionscal na bróidnéireachta agus tionscal na láimhchniotála, a rinne an dul chun cinn is mo go nuige seo agus, mar sin, is féidir a rá go bhfuil bunús maith ann le leathnú a dhéanamh. Feileann na tionscail seo go maith do chúrsaí na Gaeltachta agus do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Beidh mé ag súil leis, mar sin, go dtabharfaidh an bord nua aire speisialta do na tionscail traidisiúnta seo.

Do chuir an Seanadóir Ó hAodha ceist mar gheall ar an méid fear atá fostaithe sna Tionscail Tuaithe seo. Tá timpeall 260 fear fostaithe agus tá 155 den líon sin ag obair go lán-aimsireach agus 105 ag obair go páirt-aimsireach. Na fir atá ag obair go páirt-aimsireach ina dtithe féin, is fíodóirí iad agus, le blianta beaga anuas, tá obair lán-aimsireach ar fáil acu. Tá an chuid is mó de na fir ins na tionscail fostaithe i dtionscal an bhréidín. Mná ar fad beagnach a bhíonn ag obair sa tionscal cniotála agus bróidnéireachta. Tá 25 fear fostaithe i dtionscal na mbréagán. San iomlán, tá 1,430 oibrithe fostaithe, 260 fear agus 1,170 ban ins na tionscail tuaithe uilig. Tá timpeall ceithre chéad de na mná ag obair go lán-aimsireach.

Rinne an Seanadóir Ó Siochfhradha tagairt aréir do thionscail eile sa Ghaeltacht, Tionscal na Talmhaíochta, Iascaireacht agus Foraoíseacht, agus bhí i gceist aige go mbeadh na tionscail eile seo faoi thionchur an Bhoird nua sa Ghaeltacht. Ba mhaith liom é a dhéanamh soiléir nach mbaineann an Bille seo, ach, leis na tionscail tuaithe atá ann faoi láthair, sa chéad dul síos. Beidh cumhacht ann don Bhord nua tionscail nua a chur ar bun le toiliú Aire na Gaeltachta. Séard a bheadh i gceist, dár ndóigh, maidir le tionscail nua, ná, tionscail den tsaghas céanna nó den aicme chéanna is atá ar siúl cheana. Ní ceart go mbeadh aon chall ag an mBord seo brú isteach ar iascaireacht, cuir i gcás agus Bord Stáit eile ann cheana féin chun aire a thabhairt don tionscal sin.

Do rinne an Seanadóir Ó Siochfhradha agus an Seanadóir Ó Ciosáin tagairt do cheist na Gaeilge i gcoitinne agus d'úsaid na Gaeilge ag údaráis áitiúla agus Boird Phoiblí sa Ghaeltacht. Ceisteanna iad siúd a bhaineas le Roinn na Gaeltachta mar Roinn agus ní thagann siad faoí scóip an Bhille seo. Séard atá beartaithe san mBille seo, ná eagraíocht a chur ar bun a bheas in ann aire cheart a thabhairt do thaobh amháin de cheist na Gaeltachta, isé sin, an tionsclaíocht, agus ní thagann na ceisteanna ginearálta eile laistigh den Bhille chor ar bith.

Do bhí an Seanadóir Ó Ciosáin agus Seanadóirí eile ag caint faoi Scéim na Muc, Scéim na gCearc agus scéimeanna eile. Tá na scéimeanna sin, freisin, lasmuigh den mBille seo. Tá súil agam go mbeidh ócáid eile againn chun na ceisteanna sin a phlé. Beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach, le cúnamh Dé.

Senator McGuire stated that the new board should not compete with private enterprise operating in Gaeltacht districts but should work in harmony with them. He advises the board to concentrate on the existing traditional industries that are there. He also referred to the importance of marketing. I could not agree more with the views expressed by Senator McGuire. The time has come when industrialists in this country must stop watching one another with a jealous eye and must instead direct their energies and attentions to their competitors in the export market, as our economic survival depends on it. There is great room for co-operation in industry, particularly in endeavouring to capture the export market which Senator McGuire talked about. It may be suitable, as was suggested by Senator Ó Maoláin, to organise as has been done in Scotland, that is, that all industrialists, including Gaeltarra Éireann, would, with this new board, join together, advertise and co-operate in selling a national product which has now become known the world over but which has not been pushed sufficiently or, in my view, properly marketed. There is very great scope for improvement in this field.

With regard to the tweed industry, I feel that great headway can be made and that there is plenty of room for expansion, particularly for exports. That industry has developed in a very substantial way in recent times. The skills here are as good as, if not better than, those in any other part of the world. The one aspect in which I think we have been sadly lacking—and to which Senator McGuire and others referred—is the lack of proper marketing facilities, the lack of proper publicity directed in the right quarters. I hope the techniques now so essential in these modern competitive days will be studied and that the new board, in conjunction with all our exporters, will endeavour to concentrate upon this field.

Some Senators said that it was one thing to manufacture goods but another matter to sell them. If we do not explore our markets and publicise our goods where there is a hope of selling them and market them in the proper way, then we will not succeed in the tremendous battle that is now opening on all fronts and which will intensify, if and when the new European Free Market develops. It is true that we have suffered in this country as a result of the restrictions imposed on the export of tweeds to the American market. I also join with the Senators who wished our representatives well in Washington who are at the moment endeavouring to have this matter righted. It is only right to point out, however, that the American restrictions are not the be-all and the end-all of our export trade in tweeds. There are, in fact, very substantial export markets in many other countries all over the world, outside the United States of America.

Senator O'Quigley raised a couple of matters to which I must refer. One was the question of the manageresses who had given very long service with Gaeltarra Éireann, as they now are. He expressed certain fears about them. I would refer Senators to a statement I made in the Dáil on the Report Stage of this Bill when I indicated that provision was being made to bring these people in under the pension scheme to be provided under this Bill. Many of these were pioneers in introducing the embroidery, the lace and knitting industries to different parts of the Gaeltacht. I gave an indication to the other House as to the provisions that were being made for them. That deals, I think, with the first point raised by Senator O'Quigley.

The Senator also referred to the wages paid in some of the rural industries. I want to say here and now that there has been a tremendous amount of misrepresentation about that very question. I should like to point out that the wage rates paid in rural industries, under Gaeltarra Éireann as it has existed and as it exists at present, are fixed either through negotiation and agreement with the trade unions concerned or on the same basis as the rates paid in similar industries by private employers.

What I understand happened was that there was a series of questions in the Dáil which covered every conceivable type of employee in Gaeltarra Éireann and some figures were given in respect of what I would call home work done by girls or women in their own homes, whenever they were free. Some calculations were made and it was suggested that all the people working under Gaeltarra Éireann earned some extraordinary rate like 6d. an hour or some figure of that kind. The fact is that these figures, which were misrepresented, applied only to people who have a loose arrangement with Gaeltarra Éireann to get possibly the thread and in their own spare time at home—it is largely more a hobby for them than a method of occupation or employment—to produce certain articles.

I am very glad to say that the money earned by a large number of workers in so far as Gaeltarra Éireann are concerned is quite good, particularly in the factories. We have some weavers in our factories in Kilcar in Donegal earning from £10 to £15 a week steadily and in very good employment. I should be very happy, indeed, if the new board were able to expand and double or treble the number who will find similar employment and similar rates.

Some apprehension has been expressed about the powers taken by me in the Bill, particularly the power to dismiss members of the board. Some say that the power should be reserved to the Government, while others have said that it should be left to the board itself. This is no new provision in legislation passing through the Oireachtas and it is already enshrined in various Acts, including the legislation setting up An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and other State organisations. From a practical point of view, it does not matter whether the power is solely in the hands of the Minister concerned or in the hands of the Government. There is no Minister for the Gaeltacht who would sack a board of this kind without going to the Government first with the matter; on the other hand, there is no Government which would proceed on its own to discharge the members of a board without being guided solely or mainly by the advice of the Minister in charge of the Department concerned. Therefore, from a practical point of view, those who have expressed apprehension in this matter should realise that there is no great difference.

It is very necessary to have this power, again from a practical point of view. I am satisfied that neither I nor any other Minister would exercise it to remove a member, or even the whole board, without very grave reason. In addition, there is always the protection under our democracy, if wrong steps were taken by myself or any future Minister in this connection, that the question can be raised in Parliament. I am quite satisfied that if I dismissed some member of this board for no good reason, the ink would not be dry on my Order before there would be a motion put down to deal with the matter.

Professor Hayes

We could even give the name of the mover.

Mr. Moran

I have not become used to this House yet. I have no doubt, from the Senators whom I have heard, that they would not be very backward in coming forward, if something like this were done by some Minister, if they did not think his action justified. I was very interested in the suggestions of Senator Sheehy Skeffington and various other Senators as to what the composition of the new board should be and as to the type of people I should try to get to serve on it. This is a matter in respect of which I have received a tremendous amount of advice, not alone in this House but from hundreds of correspondents.

While I should be very glad to try to find the type of personnel suggested by the different Senators, some experts on tweed manufacture, some enthusiasts for the Irish language, some experts on export marketing, some experts on export sales, and to combine with them people with the expert knowledge of a Miss Sybil Connolly, I am afraid that if I tried to meet the wishes of the people who have spoken and written to me, to get a board with all the different virtues that have been expressed, I would not get them in this country, or in England, or in the United States of America. Other space exploration is just beginning and possibly there might be some people there about whom we do not know yet.

All I can do is try and get the most suitable people. Senator Sheehy Skeffington suggested that I should try to get people to serve on the board without remuneration. In my view, it will be difficult to get people with the required qualifications who would be prepared to sacrifice the time from their private interests to give their experience and training to such an important board as this. I do not doubt that many men of this kind would be prepared to make the necessary sacrifices in the national interest, but I think it would be unfair not to provide something for them, some form of remuneration. Indeed I am quite satisfied that the remuneration that will be approved by the Minister for Finance in respect of the part-time members of this board will not compensate them at all for the time and the effort they will have to put into the work this board will have to do.

I have a fair idea myself of what this board will be up against. In my view, they will have on hands one of the toughest jobs that have ever been handed to any board in this country to date. If they are to succeed in the tasks before them, we must try, as I have said, to get the best people we can to take on the work. Many suggestions have been made about different matters to be undertaken by this board. What I am getting under this Bill is an organisation that will be there to function and to make the best use possible of the raw materials in the Gaeltacht. The very first duty of that organisation will be to take over a business which is worth £500,000 a year at the moment. It is a very onerous and responsible task.

Reference has been made to what might be done in regard to the development of seaweed utilisation. There is an organisation—in fact I would call it a company—Arramara Teoranta —of which I, as Minister for the Gaeltacht, am a member. That company is registered under the Companies Acts and is outside the scope of the Bill. It is in their factory that searods are processed. I can assure Senator Sheehy Skeffington that the future of Alginate Industries is under active consideration at the moment.

Private enterprise is also interested in this question. As Senators will appreciate, and as has been mentioned here, a State—sponsored body of this kind must be very careful to avoid treading on the toes of private enterprise. If that occurred, we would have motions both here and in the other House. Again, I should like to assure Senators that the possibility of developing the seaweed industry is not being neglected.

Many other matters have been advocated here, including the provision of better tourist facilities in the Gaeltacht. Again, I want to emphasise that I am dealing only with industrial matters under this Bill, but that these other matters are ever present to my mind. I have a duty as Minister for the Gaeltacht to consider every aspect of the economy of the people in the Gaeltacht as well as the question of their language.

Senator Ó Maoláin mentioned Section 15 and asked a question about the number of Irish speakers from other organisations who might be handed over to the board. I should like to tell him that the number of non-Irish speakers employed by Gaeltarra Éireann is very small; my information is that there are only a half dozen so employed, all of them technicians. The great majority of the existing staff are all competent Irish speakers. The fears expressed by the Senator in that regard are consequently not well founded. Of course, in work related to the manufacture of tweed, we have had to bring in people with very specialised knowledge of tweed production, tweed colouring and so forth.

Níl mórán eile le rá agam ar an mBille seo. Mar adúras i mBéarla ní bhaineann an Bille seo ach le tionsclaíocht amháin, agus mar is eol do Sheanadóirí, tá cúram níos leithne i bhfad ná sin ar mo Roinn-se. San Acht faoinar cuireadh Roinn na Gaeltachta ar bun, cuireadh de dhualgas ar an Roinn, leas cultúrtha, sóisialach agus geilleagrach na Gaeltachta a chur chun cinn, agus cabhrú le caomhaint agus leathnú na Gaeilge mar ghnáthurlabhra. Mar adúirt mé agus an Bille á chur faoi bhráid an Tí agam, tá sé riachtanach eagraíocht tráchtála a chur i mbun na dTionscal Tuaithe, agus faoin mBille seo, tá súil agam go mbeidh eagraíocht fónta curtha ar fáil a bheas in ann cabhrú go maith le ceann amháin de chuspóirí na Roinne a chur chun cínn, isé sin, leas geilleagrach na Gaeltachta d'fheabhsú. Gabhaim mo bhuíochas arís leis an Teach as ucht an chomh-oibrithe a tugadh dom agus an Bille seo á phlé.

Cuireadh agus d'aontaíodh an cheist

English version of Bill.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.

D'aontaiodh na Céimeanna eile a thógáint inniu.

English version of Bill.

Agreed to take remaining stages today.