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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 1959

Vol. 51 No. 3

Public Business. - Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Bill, 1959—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Tá an Bille seo á thabhairt isteach chun Achtanna na dTithe (Gaeltacht), 1929-1953, a leasú agus a leathnú. Is iad aidhmeanna an Bhille—na deontais agus na hiasachtaí uile faoi na hAchtanna a mhéadú; deontas a chur ar fáil i leith córas uisce nó saoráidí séarachais a chur isteach i dteach cónaithe (faoi láthair, ní mór iad araon a chur isteach, chun deontas d'fháil); deontas a chur ar fáil i leith seanchóras uisce agus/nó saoráidí séarachais d'fheabhsú; deontas a chur ar fáil i leith seomra folctha a chur isteach i dteach cónaithe; tuilleadh cúnaimh a chur ar fáil do dhaoine sna límistéirí atá sceidealta in Ordú na Límistéirí Gaeltachta, 1956, chun seomraí breise a chur lena dtithe cónaithe; cúnamh a chur ar fáil do dhaoine sna límistéirí Gaeltachta sin chun iostáin saoire le haghaidh cuairteoirí a thógáil; deontas a chur ar fáil do chomhluchtaí aitheanta i leith brúnna a thógáil sna límistéirí Gaeltachta sin leasú a dhéanamh ar an bhfaoiseamh ó ardú rátaí i leith obair a déantar faoi na hAchtanna; leasú a dhéanamh ar an gcoinníoll, in Alt 3 d'Acht 1929, nach dtabharfar cúnamh ach do dhaoine atá ina sealbhairí ar thithe cónaithe; agus, leasú a dhéanamh ar an Sceideal d'Acht 1929 ina leagtar síos na límistéirí a chomhdhéanas an Ghaeltacht chun críocha na nAchtanna.

This Bill is being introduced for the purpose of amending and extending the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts of 1929-53. Already under those Acts upwards of 5,000 new houses have been built and another 5,000 have been improved at a cost of £1 million in grants and £¼ million in loans. Notwithstanding what has been done, however, it is estimated that about 3,000 new houses are needed and that about 5,000 existing houses require to be repaired in the Gaeltacht areas.

No increase has been made in the grants for new houses since the passing of the 1949 Act in spite of the big increase in costs which occurred in the interim. To remedy that situation, it is proposed under Section 2(1) of the Bill to increase the present building grants by £25 in the case of houses which do not possess running water and sanitary facilities, and also in the case of houses which will have these facilities but where a public water supply or sanitary facilities are available. It is proposed also to increase the present building grants by £50 in the case of houses which will have running water and sanitary facilities but where a public water supply and sanitary facilities are not available. It is further proposed under the same Section to make available an additional sum of up to £100 for the provision of a fitted bathroom in the house.

It is proposed under Section 2 (2) of the Bill to increase the improving grants by £30 so that grants of £110, £130 and £150 respectively will be available according as a house will have three rooms, four rooms, or five or more rooms. Under Section 3 (1) it is proposed to provide improved sanitation facilities either in the form of a £55 grant in respect of the provision of water, £30 for sanitary facilities or a combined grant of £85 for both. It is also proposed to provide a maximum grant of £140 for the provision of a bathroom.

There are many houses in which there are already water or sanitary facilities but in which these are in a bad or faulty condition. It is intended under Section 3 (1) to provide a grant of up to £40 for the repair or improvement of such water or sanitary facilities.

Under the Act of 1953, a maximum grant of £80 is available in respect of the provision of an additional room for visitors. However, this grant was not used to the extent envisaged— probably due to the smallness of the grant. I now propose to increase and extend this grant as shown in the Table which accompanies Section 3 (1). However, as our concern is mainly with visitors who have an interest in the language, it is intended that this assistance will be available only in the areas scheduled in the Gaeltacht Areas Order, 1956.

As the law stands at present, loans of up to £100 in addition to a building grant and of up to £40 in the case of an improving or a special extension grant are available. These loans were provided under the 1949 Act and under present conditions the amounts advanced are not nearly large enough. There are a good many households in the Gaeltacht living under very bad housing conditions for whom these loans, in addition to the grants available, are insufficient to enable them to provide proper accommodation for themselves and their dependants. It is to provide for people of this type that it is intended to make available the loans set out in Section 5 (1) and (2) of the Bill i.e. in the case of a building grant, a loan equal to the amount of the grant; and, in the case of an improving or extension grant, a loan of up to half the cost of the work in question.

Under Section 3 of the Act of 1929, it is not possible to give assistance under the Acts except to the occupiers of existing houses. As a result of this condition, it has been found necessary to refuse assistance to people such as tradesmen, fishermen and others who intended to get married and settle down in the Gaeltacht. I think it is obvious that to maintain such a condition would not be to the best advantage of the language or of the Gaeltacht itself. There is no such a condition in the General Housing Acts and it is intended under Section 3 (1) of this Bill that this condition will not in future affect people in the areas scheduled under the Gaeltacht Areas Order of 1956.

Assistance of an entirely new kind is set out in Section 4. As Senators are aware, emphasis is now being laid on the speaking of Irish in the secondary schools, and it is to be expected that this emphasis will be felt very much in the Gaeltacht and that there will be more visitors than ever going there to learn and to practise the speaking of Irish. It is only right to take full advantage of the situation for the benefit of the people of the Gaeltacht. In addition, it is very important that the existing amenities and undoubted possibilities of the Gaeltacht areas as tourist centres should be exploited to the full in the interests of the Gaeltacht people and of the country as a whole. At the moment, however, there is not sufficient suitable accommodation in the Gaeltacht areas to cope with any big increase in the number of visitors. To cope with this situation and to provide a steady income for the people of the Gaeltacht areas, it is intended to make available a grant of up to £200 for the provision of one holiday chalet to accommodate visitors. The kind of chalet envisaged is a simple well-built structure erected at a reasonable cost. In addition to this grant it is intended under Section 5 (3) to provide loans of up to £200 in cases in which loans would be deemed necessary. It is quite possible that some people would like to build more than one chalet and accordingly it is intended under Section 5 (4) to provide loans of up to £300 to help with the provision of a second chalet and another loan of up to £300 to enable a third chalet to be built if so desired.

Another kind of assistance provided for under Section 4 is also of an entirely new order. It is intended to provide for grants of up to £5,000 to enable approved bodies to erect hostels in Gaeltacht areas. It is thought that such accommodation will be needed to house groups of students, etc., for whom the ordinary household accommodation would not be suitable or sufficient. The type of hostel envisaged is a building in which cooking, eating and sleeping accommodation would be available for upwards of 20 people.

As the law stands at the moment, there is relief from any increase in rates for 20 years available to grantees under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts in respect of work carried out under these Acts. Accordingly, the enactment of Section 3 (1) of the Bill would result, in respect of persons who are not occupiers of existing houses, in such persons not being liable for rates at all. I also think such generous relief from rates is no longer necessary. Accordingly, it is proposed under Section 6 of the Bill to adopt what has been done under the General Housing Acts of 1958 and to give a sliding scale of relief from rates in future in respect of building work. Although this is a reduction in the relief already available under the existing Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts, it is nevertheless greater than the relief available under the General Housing Acts. In the case of housing work other than building operations, it is proposed to leave the system of relief from any increase in rates as it is at present but to reduce the period of relief from 20 years to 10 years.

In the Schedule to the Act of 1929, there are listed the district electoral divisions comprised in the Gaeltacht for the purpose of the Gaeltacht Housing Acts. This Schedule was never amended and is now completely out of date. In quite a number of these divisions no application for housing assistance has been received for a long time. In some others, no assistance has been approved for some considerable time because the condition with regard to the Irish language was not fulfilled. Senators are, of course, aware that the Gaeltacht areas have now been determined by Order under Section 2 of the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act, 1956. The question whether the benefits of the Acts should be confined exclusively to those areas was considered. As, however, there are some households in outside districts where Irish is the habitual language of the household, I would be loath, and I think it would not be to the advantage of the language, to deprive these people of the benefits of the Acts. Accordingly, I propose under Section 7 of the Bill to restrict the benefits of the Acts in future to the counties in which grants are ordinarily sanctioned.

The foregoing are the chief aims and provisions of the Bill. I am placing it before the Seanad for consideration in the confident hope that the House will agree to it.

Would the Minister say how he is going to raise the money? The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare said today that he could not get it for old age pensions.

We have to get it for this and that.

The Minister is right in saying that the Bill is one which should commend itself to the House. The provisions in relation to increasing grants for new houses, for sanitation and for reconstruction of existing houses, are in line with what has been done for housing generally in the rest of the State, outside the Gaeltacht areas. Indeed, it comes to me as a surprise to learn that the amount of the grants has not been increased since 1949, in spite of the substantial increases which have taken place in the cost of building materials and in the cost of labour since that time. Therefore, the amount by which the grants are being increased seems to be reasonable and seems to bear fairly close relationship to the grants ordinarily available under the Housing Acts for the country at large.

The section dealing with the grants for holiday chalets which may be provided by individuals and by groups of persons is novel and is one which anyone interested in the promotion of Irish and in the preservation of the Gaeltacht must welcome. I have a recollection that, when the Gaeltacht Industries Bill was going through the House, I mentioned that I felt a good deal could be done, both for the people in the Gaeltacht areas by way of providing them with an income and for the Irish language, if some kind of a local tourist industry were provided; and I had in mind, as I think I mentioned on that Bill, the provision of more facilities in the way of accommodation for people who would wish to go to the Gaeltacht for the purpose of getting the language at its source.

People who are interested in learning Irish and who would like to hear Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht are also human and like creature comforts. They like to have the ordinary facilities of running water and sanitation. It must have proved a disincentive to such people in the past that adequate accommodation, merely putting it on that basis, was not available, through no fault of the people in the Gaeltacht, for them if they went there.

I notice that Section 4 contemplates that grants of as much as £5,000 will be available to groups of persons. I take it that these will be people who are banded together in different organisations for the promotion of Irish. I observe that the grants will be at the discretion of the Minister and subject to regulations to be made by the Minister. I know it is quite a stock provision in legislation that regulations will be made. I do not see anywhere, by the way, immediately in the Bill that regulations, if made, will be laid before either House of the Oireachtas. I presume that that is in the Bill.

I must confess I am becoming less and less enamoured of the provision in Acts which enables regulations to be made. We are all inclined to console ourselves with the thought that in due time we will be sufficiently diligent to look up what regulations are being made and challenge them, if necessary. I am not aware of any regulation that has ever been challenged in either House of the Oireachtas. It seems to me that in this subsection of Section 4, we are not defining even in broad terms the principles upon which the regulations will be made.

I should imagine that if the Minister is to have power to make regulations, there should be some boundary within which these regulations will be made. Perhaps in the course of his reply the Minister would indicate what conditions will be attached to the making of grants to bodies of persons under subsection (2) of the new Section 3 of the 1929 Act.

There is another matter which to me personally is not very satisfactory. Grants to individuals for the building of chalets will be dependent upon whether the person applying for the grant shows, to the satisfaction of the Minister, that the Irish language is in habitual use by him. I do not know what that has to do with the provision of chalets in the Gaeltacht areas. It appears to me that if we are to provide chalets to facilitate people going to the Gaeltacht for the purpose of learning Irish, whether or not the person who provides a chalet has Irish does not seem to enter into the question. If some wealthy Englishman decided to build a number of chalets in any Gaeltacht, I think we would all regard it as very useful that these chalets would be available for people who wanted to go down and spend a period of three weeks or a month there. Similarly, if anybody else who happens to be resident in the Gaeltacht is of a mind to make this accommodation available, not primarily for his own benefit although presumably he will benefit from renting it or from the money he will get for it by way of tariffs for accommodation, it would be a service which we would all be glad to see. Therefore, I do not understand that it is necessary for a person to satisfy the Minister he habitually uses the Irish language in the home.

I have this further objection to make on that matter. Administratively, it creates difficulty in showing to the satisfaction of the Minister that the language is used habitually. I think there will be considerable difficulty and that it will lead to all kinds of representations and perhaps discrimination, unfortunately, when grants are given to some persons and not to others. The making of grants dependent on whether or not people have a knowledge of Irish is undesirable because it is making the use of Irish a means of obtaining money. As I said on the debate on the motion to establish a commission to inquire into methods for the revival of the Irish language, you are debasing the Irish language once you put a money value on it—and that is still being continued in this section. My personal view is that that is not wise.

I am glad to see that, in Section 6, the Minister has gone back to the old system, since he does decide that it is necessary to make people pay some rates in respect of new houses. I am glad to see he has gone back to the old sliding scale that was introduced in the earlier Housing Acts—I think, some time in the 1920's. That is a provision that many people in this country would wish to see restored in the general Housing Acts and applied. Since the Minister has decided that these new houses or reconstructed houses will be liable to rates, I am glad to note that it is not the scale that was set out in the last Housing (Amendment) Act but the scale that was in the earlier Acts that is in Section 6.

I hope the Minister's expectations as to the use which will be made of this Bill will be realised and that it will in fact result in a steady influx of young and old into the Gaeltacht. I hope that when these chalets are made available there will be a special effort by people to keep them in a condition which will prevent them from deteriorating within a few years and, at the same time, still have them in a clean and attractive condition that will invite people who go to inspect them with a view to staying in them to come and spend some part of their holidays in them with their families in the Gaeltacht.

Fearaim faílte agus fiche roimh an mBille seo mar tuigtear dom gur mór an chéim ar aghaidh é maidir le na nithe don saol seo a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Táimíd le fada an lá ag cur síos ar cad ba chóir a dhéanamh chun saol soisialta agus eacnamaíochta mhuintir na Gaeltachta d'fheabhsú. Do bhí diospóireacht againn anseo cheana féin ar an gceist chéanna. Do b'fhéidir a thuiscint ón méid suime a cuireadh sna díospóireachta sin go bhfuilimid go léir, beagnach, ar an intinn chéanna i leith na Gaeltachta.

Tá fhios againn go léir go bhfuil caomhnadh na teanga sa Ghaeltacht fite fuaite le saol eacnamaíochta agussoisialta a ba chóir a bheith ag muintir na Gaeltachta chomh maith le muintir na Galltachta. Maidir leis sin, is an-thábhachtach ar fad an rud atá i gceist againn anseo sa mBille— ceist tithíocht san Ghaeltacht chun tithe cónaí maithe a thabhairt do na daoine atá ann.

Tá rud nua á dhéanamh againn san mBille. Táimíd chun deontaisí airgid a thabhairt do na daoine sin chun tithe óstaíochta a thógaint sa Ghaeltacht i dtreo is go bhféadfaidh cuairteoirí dul ann agus iad san go dteastaíonn uatha líofacht d'fháil i labhairt na teanga i dtreo is go mbeidh caoi acu bheith imeasc Gaelgeoiri ó dhúchas. Rud an-thábhachtach í sin agus rud nua í. Molaim an tAire dá bharr. Tá sé ar an mbóthar ceart. Ní amháin go gcuirfidh an Bille seo feabhas ar shaol sóisialta mhuintir na Gaeltachta ach cuideoidh sé le teacht isteach mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus rud mór iad sin.

Rinne an tAire tagairt do cheist oideachais agus don bheartas nua atá le bheith ann anois ag an Aire Oideachais maidir le scrúdú i labhairt na Gaeilge do bheith ag scolairí na h-Árd Teistiméireachta. Is dócha, le himeacht aimsire, go leanfaidh an scéim sin agus go gcuirfear a leithéid sin de scrúdú ar aicmí eile a thiocfas fé scrúdú chomh maith le scoláirí na hÁrd Teistiméireachta.

Dá bhrí sin is féidir a rá go mbeidh líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge ag dul i méid agus dá réir sin is mó an tsuim a cuirfear sa bheartas seo atá againn, sé sin, daoine a chur go dtí an Ghaeltacht chun líofacht cainte d'fháil ó na Gaeilgeoiri atá ann. Is ceart féachaint chuige go mbeidh an gnáth chompórd ar a laghad le fáil ag na daoine sin a rachaidh go dtí an Ghaeltacht feasta agus nuair a cuirfear an Bille seo i bhfeidhm beidh sé sin le fáil ann. Ba mhaith liom dá bhféachaimís cuige go gcuirfí maitheasaí an Bhille seo os cóir na ndaoine sa Ghaeltacht nuair a bheidh an Bille rite, agus b'fhéidir nárbh olc an cuimhniú é coiste do chur ar bun i ngach paróiste sa Ghaeltacht. Nuair a ritheadh Acht na dTithe trid an Oireachtas i 1932 cuireadh coistí ar bun ar fud na tíre chun treoir agus comhairle a thabhairt do na daoine a bheadh ag lorg deontas faoin Acht agus is é ainm a bhí ortha san ná public utility societies. Dá mbeadh a leithéid sin de choistí ins gach paróiste sa Ghaeltacht chun an treoir cheart a thabhairt do na daoine ba mhaith an rud é. Níl ansin ach mo thuairim féin. B'fhéidir go bhfuil tuairimí eile ag an Aire agus ag Seanadóirí maidir leis an gceist sin.

Tá na tithe seo ag teastáil go mór sa Ghaeltacht, mar na daoine a bhéas ag dul ann feasta, scoláirí agus lucht eolais, beidh siad ag lorg compórd de ghnáth-shaghas. Fadó, na daoine a bheadh ag dul don Ghaeltacht bhéidís sásta cur futha in aon saghas botháin.

An tigh tábhairne féin.

Sa tigh tábhairne, fiú amháin. Ba chuma an saghas cruatain a bheadh le fulaing aca. Tá saol nua ann anois seachas an saol a bhí ann an t-am sin. Beidh na daoine a rachaidh go dtí an Ghaeltacht as so amach ag súil le lóistín ceart d'fháil ann.

Dúirt an tAire nuair a bhí sé ag tabhairt an Bille isteach go raibh muintir na Gaeltachta taobh thiar de mhuintir na Galltachta maidir le tithe. Is fíor sin agus más féidir an scéal sin do leigheas leis an mBille seo is maith an rud é. Ní fheicimse cén fáth nach mbeadh saoráidí agus maitheasaí comh maith le fáil ag muintir na Gaeltachta agus atá ag muintir na Galltachta, nó b'fhéidir níos fearr mar gheall ar an saibhreas Gaeilge atá aca. Má tá muintir na tíre seo dáiríre i dtaobh aithbheochaint na Gaeilge caithfidh siad bheith sásta íbirt a dhéanamh agus teacht i gcabhair ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus cibé is gá a chur ar fáil dóibh. Caithfimid bheith sásta costas áirithe do chur orainn féin in a thaobh sin.

Anois, fé mar adúras, tá forálacha nua san mBille ná raibh in aon Bhille a tugadh isteach anseo fós. Beidh sé ar chumas mhuintir na Gaeltachta tithe do thógaint anois agus is cuma an raibh tigh acu cheana nó ná raibh. Sin í an chiall a bhainim as an méid adúirt an tAire agus é ag tabhairt an Bhille isteach. Is maith an rud é sin.

Do dhein an Seanadóir Ó Coighligh tagairt do labhairt na Gaeilge agus dúirt sé fé mar a thuig sé sin an scéal go bhféadfaidh duine éigin teacht isteach ón dtaobh amuigh. Níl sé sin ceart. Déanfaidh mé tagairt dó sin ar ball i gcúpla focal i mBéarla ar eagla go mbeidh aon mhí-thuiscint mar gheall air.

Níor ghá dhó bheith ina chónaí ann.

Ní mar sin atá sé san mBille.

Caithfimid dul isteach san gceist sin sar a scarfaimid leis an mBille seo. Is ar mhaithe le haithbheochaint na Gaeilge atáimid ag obair anso.

An fear a thóg an tigh ní gá do bheith ann agus cad ba ghá dó mar sin Gaeilge a labhairt?

Má's leis an tigh caithfidh sé bheith ina chainteoir Gaeilge.

Cad ba ghá dona daoine atá ag teacht——

Ní tabharfar deontas ar bith d'éinne nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge aige ón gcliabhán, nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar ghnáththeanga aige. Nach shin í an cheist?

Ní gá dó féin bheith ina chónaí ann.

Féach ar Alt a 4, fo-alt a 3A.

Ní thiocfaidh le stróinséar teacht isteach mar sin.

Tig linn é léamh ar Chéim an Choiste.

Nílim chun a thuille moille a chur ar an dTigh maidir leis an mBille seo. Fé mar adúirt mé i dtosach, táim go mór ar a thaobh. Rud ion-mholta ar fad isea é feabhas a chur ar cheist na dtithe sa Ghaeltacht mar tá an-chuid tithe sa Ghaeltacht nach bhfuil ar fónamh agus nach bhfuil sé de ghustal ag na daoine féin na tithe a chur i dtreo. Beidh caoi acu anois ar sin a dhéanamh nuair a rithfear an Bille tríd an Tigh agus nuair a bheidh sé ina dlí.

I did not intend speaking any English today on this measure but lest there be any misunderstanding about a few things that are in it, I feel it is necessary just to say a few words in English. We have often had debates here and elsewhere about what should be done for the Gaeltacht with a view to preserving the Irish language in those parts of the country. I think that most of us who have given any thought to the question will have realised now that one of the first essentials for the attainment of that objective—the objective of preserving the Irish language in the Gaeltacht—is to improve the economic and social conditions there. The economic wealth and social welfare of the Gaeltacht is tied up with the question of the preservation of the language.

I know that is fully realised by the Minister and by the Government. The question of housing in the Gaeltacht is a very important one because those of us who have had recourse to these Irish-speaking districts know very well that there are many habitations in the Gaeltacht that are not up to modern conditions. As I said in my contribution in Irish, I, for one, cannot see any reason why the people of the Gaeltacht cannot enjoy the same amenities as those enjoyed by the rest of the community.

Are they not getting everything in the west?

They are not. That is a mistake. We all subscribe to the policy of preserving the Irish language. If we are prepared to subscribe to that, we must be prepared to make whatever contribution is necessary towards that objective. As I said, the housing position——

There are no Irish people——

I want to know if I am to be permitted to make a speech on this important question of Gaeltacht housing?

They are all over in England working now. They are not talking about Irish. There is no one in the Gaeltacht now. They are flying out of the country.

I want to know if I am to be permitted to speak on this measure without unruly interruptions?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am sorry I did not hear the interruptions.

It is not an interruption to tell the Senator that all the Irish speakers have gone to England, to Coventry and Birmingham.

The Senator does not know a single thing about conditions in the Gaeltacht. He does not know how many left and how many returned.

60,000 left.

Perhaps the Senator might tell us.

It is not my business. I should be out of order on this measure if I began to speak about emigration or anything like that.

60,000 went to the labour exchange for cards.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Ó Ciosáin has asked to be allowed speak without interruption.

It is our duty as legislators to enact whatever measures are necessary to improve the economic and social life of the people in the Gaeltacht. I consider that if we are, as I said, to have as our policy the preservation of the Irish language in the Gaeltacht, we must be prepared to make whatever contribution is necessary to that end.

For the whole country; not for one section of it.

I think that the Chair should insist that either Senator O'Leary keep quiet or leave the chamber. He does not seem to be able to keep quiet today.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Ó Ciosáin has asked to be heard without interruption.

Not without interruption—I do not mind relevant interruptions.

He left the Gaeltacht and is living in New Ross.

I can speak Irish when I have to——

It is no good to you.

——and I can teach it to the Senator.

I would stay in the Gaeltacht if I were an Irish speaker. I would not leave it.

We will come back to the section to which Senator O'Quigley referred. His point was that anybody, even somebody from England, could build a chalet in the Gaeltacht.

No, I did not say that.

What did the Senator say? I think that was what was said.

What I said was that this section confines grants to people who can show to the satisfaction of the Minister that they speak Irish habitually. What I am saying is that it does not matter who builds the chalets in the Gaeltacht. If an Englishman came here and built 20 chalets, that would be a service and it is the building of the chalets that is important and the provision of accommodation for people who want to learn Irish.

I do not agree with that suggestion at all. I think the contention that those applying for a grant under this Bill should be Irish speakers should be strictly adhered to. It is here in Section 4:—

Where, in the case of a person who is ordinarily resident in an area which is one of the areas for the time being determined to be Gaeltacht areas by order under Section 2 of the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act, 1956 (No. 21 of 1956), and who proposes to erect in any of the said areas a holiday chalet, such person shows to the satisfaction of the Minister that the Irish language is the language habitually used by him, the Minister may, in his discretion but subject to the provisions of this Act and the provisions of the regulations made by the Minister thereunder, make to such person a grant (in this Act referred to as a holiday chalet building grant) towards the erection of the chalet and the grant shall not exceed £200 or one-half of the estimated cost of the chalet (whichever is the less).

There it is. There is no doubt about that section and I am fully in agreement with its provisions. I would ask the Minister to make sure that the provisions of the section will be strictly adhered to, that the benefits of this measure will go to the people living in the Gaeltacht, to the Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht and nobody else.

There is just one question that I want to ask about what are described as "brúanna". The equivalent in English would be "hostels". There is a grant being provided under this Bill up to £5,000. I take it that the grant will be available only to public bodies and I wonder if——

Or a religious community.

Would it not be possible for an individual to get the grant? If an individual took it upon himself to erect a hostel in the Gaeltacht, would he be eligible for a grant?

It says "a body of persons".

But not an individual?

An approved body.

I should like to find out whether it would not be possible for an individual to get a grant. Perhaps the Minister would explain that when replying, if he thinks it is appropriate.

Sin a bhfuil le rá agam fé láthair ar an mBille seo.

Like Senator Ó Ciosáin, I welcome this Bill, but perhaps for rather different reasons. I join with him in drawing attention to the need to assist people in parts of our country which happen to be more underdeveloped than other parts. What this measure attempts is to give assistance to people who need special assistance, more than the general body of the community, to build houses for themselves and also to provide accommodation for the tourist trade. That is very good because these areas are tending, as far as we know, to become underpopulated. I was wondering why similar treatment could not be given to other areas in the country which are also becoming depopulated rapidly.

I noticed recently that a deputation from Leitrim—Senator O'Reilly's county—drew the Government's attention to their plight in that county. They showed that emigration figures were higher there than in any other county. Some time subsequently, I noticed, in answer to a question in the Dáil, that the appropriate Minister gave details of the numbers of schools which were closed in various counties and again Leitrim happened to be the one which had the greatest number closed because the children were not there to fill them. I think it is only proper that public assistance should be given to areas which need assistance and I quite agree that Gaeltacht areas need the assistance which the Minister is asking for in this Bill. He and the Government should also consider affording the same type of assistance to other areas equally in need of assistance. After all, the people in those areas are all Irishmen, whether they come from Cork, Galway, Donegal, Mayo or even Dublin.

I would also ask the Minister— perhaps this would be more appropriate on the Committee Stage—to tell us what is a chalet. It is not defined in the Bill. I think that the Minister, when he introduces a new term into legislation, would be prudent to define what that term means and put the definition into the Bill.

Ní dóigh liom gur gá dhom mórán a rá nó argóint a dhéanamh mar gheall ar na feabhsanna atá leagtha amach ins an mBille seo. Traosláím ó chroí leis an Aire a cheap é agus a thug i láthair an tSeanaid é, agus a thug, mar sin agus dá bhrí sin, misneach do na daoine sna ceanntracha atá i gceist aige.

Isé is mó is suim liomsa ná an feabhas atá beartaithe a chur ar shaol na ngnáth-dhaoine in a dtithe féin ins an nGaeltacht, feabhas do chur ar na tithe sin, a dhéanfadh cónaí ionntú níos taitneamhaí agus níos compordúla, feabhas a chur orthu a chuirfeadh leisce orthu dul as na tithe sin agus go trí na sráideanna cúnga i Lonndain, Newcastle agus Birmingham. Ní h-é nach ndéanfadh siad baile buan cónaithe dóibh fhéin annsin ach beadh leisce orthu scarúint leo agus dul anall go dtí Chicago, New York nó áiteanna eile, fhaid is a bheadh aon chaoi acu maireachtaint sa bhaile. Isé an feabhas a chuirfear ar na gnáth-thithe, tithe na gnáth-mhuinntire, is suim liomsa a theacht as an mBille seo. De réir mar thuigim an Bille go dtí seo, is dóigh liom go bhfuil sé ag geallúint an fheabhsaithe sin agus an maisiúcháin sin, agus gur féidir é a sholáthair fé na téarmaí atá annseo.

Isé an príomh-riachtanas saol príobháideach na ndaoine féin a fheabhsú. Is ceart don Rialtas bheith cúramach agus imníoch é sin a thabhairt chun críche. Tá cuid mhór déanta cheana féin agus ní maith an rud é dearmad a dhéanamh air. Tá réabhlóid i gcúrsaí tithe déanta le leathchéad blian. Deineadh a lán faoin sean Bórd na gCeantracha gCúng, ach na tithe a dheineadar sin, níor criochnaíodh go ceart agus go h-iomlán iad. Má déantar le cuid mhór des na tithe sin anois, seomra nó dhó a chur leo, uisce agus córachas sláinte agus compóird a chur ionntu cuirfidh sé feabhas mór ar na tithe sin atá ann cheana féin. Mar tá na foirgintí sásúil go leor agus tá siad ina seasamh fós. Is trua a rá gur féidir le haon duine a ghabhann trén cheanntar a thabhairt fé ndeara go bhfuil faillí déanta ar mhaisiú na tithe seo. Go minic, tá plaistéar na tithe ag tuitim amach idir clocha na bhfallaí, agus nithe eile mar sin.

Do thaithnigh go mór liom an ní a dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Ciosián, gur cóir agus gur gá, b'fhéidir, daoine a chur i measc na ndaoine chun iad do ghríosadh chun feidhm a bhaint as téarmaí an Bhille seo agus saoráidí a sholáthair dóibh féin a dhéanfadh maisiú ar an saol atá acu. Mholfainn é sin go léir, mar is dóigh liom gur gá an teagasc sin a thabhairt.

Tá mé ag caint go dtí seo anois ar na gná-thithe ag an ngná-mhuintir agus a riachtanaí atá sé feabhas a chur orthu san agus barr-mhaisiú a chur ar a saol. Is féidir leis na sean daoine, a bhí ins na tithe cheana féin, feabhas a chur leo le na sleachtú.

Maidir leis na chalets, is maith an smaoineamh é. Isé an gnáth-thuiscint ag na daoine le chalet, pé scéal é, go mbeadh sé in a thígh breise, go mbeadh sé in a thigh cónaithe do lucht chuarda nó lucht chiureadh, fiú amháin. Is maith go mbéidís ann ach tagann an cheist isteach anois: cé hiad go mba chóir go mbeadh an t-údarás acu feidhm a bhaint as téarmaí an Bhille seo chun chalets do thógáil.

Arís, tá mé ar aon fhocal go láidir leis an Seanadóir Ó Ciosáin gur le lucht Gaeilge iad agus nár ceart go mbeadh aon bhogadh as an smaoineamh ag an Roinn, ag an Rialtas nó ag pé údarás atá ann; mar is furust a thuiscint dá bhféadfadh daoine Gallda airgead d'fháil chun cabhrú leo chalets beaga do thógáil thiar, ar an gcósta, nó in aice le h-áit álainn éigin ins an Ghaeltacht, do thabhairidís fé iad féin, agus ná béadh ins na chalets sin ach láthair Béarla agus Galldachais gach aon saoire. Tá an coinníoll seo sa mBille agus ní dóigh liom gur ceart chur isteach air.

Maidir leis an tríú rud, na brúanna nó hostels, is áirithe liomsa gurb é an cuspóir a bhí in aigne an Aire agus an Rialtais, nuair a cheapadh an deontas san, gur ar son na Gaeilge a chuirfí a leithéide sin ar bun, go mbéadh coiste nó cumann éigin ann agus gurb é a gcúram agus a gcuspóir an Gaeilge a chur chun chinn nó a theagasc no chun caidreamh soisialta a dhéanamh trén Ghaeilge, gur chuige sin a bhféidís ann agus nár chalets do dhaoine priobháideacha a bheadh ann in aon chor.

Ba cheart go núsáidfí iad ar son cuspóir atá laistiar an Bhille ar fad, sé sin, leas na Gaeilge, úsáid na Gaeilge, eolas na Gaeilge a thabhairt do dhaoine agus caidreamh na Gaeilge mar ghnáth-theanga agus mar ghnáth-chleachtadh i measc roinnt éigin den phobal atá againn, go mór mór lucht chuarda don Ghaeltacht, chun sleacht a chur ar a gcuid Gaeilge. D'fhéadfaidh mac-léinn tamall a chaitheamh, gan trácht ar an riail nua atá beartaithe le scrúdú an Árd-Teastais, chun, an cumas agus an oilteacht cainte sin d'fháil a bheidh riachtanach dóibh.

Tá súil agam nach ar an Ard-Teastas amháin a bheidh an ní sin ag obair ach go leathnófar amach go dtí Teastasaí eile é agus go dtí an Bunoideachas fé dheireadh, agus go dtí lucht oiliúna ollscoileanna fhéin. Tá a fhios ag daoine go ndéanfadh sé maitheas do chuid mhór acu sin.

Pé scéal é, molaim an Bille seo agus is dóigh liom gur rud tábhachtach é. Is dóigh liom go gcuirfidh sé in iúl do lucht na Gaeltachta nach bhfuil dearmad ar fad déanta orthu. Cuirfidh sé in iúl rud eile, gur gá dóibh féin bheith múscailte maidir le spiorad agus dúil agus gníomh. Ba mhaith liom go ndéanfaí teagasc dóibh ionnas go gcuirfidís orthu féin bheith gníomhach, bheith mórtasach agus bheith oilte i gcúrsaí a bhaineann le leathnú na Gaeilge agus chun an pobal a dhíriú chun é usáid i gcoitinn.

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuilim fíor bhuíoch don tSeanad toisc go raibh siad chomh báidhiúil leis an mBille seo. Is cúis athas dúinn an moladh a fuaireamar an seo indhiú. Is léir, mar admhuionn na Seanadóirí go bhfuil fiúntas sa mBille seo agus tá dochas agam go rachaidh sé chun tairbhe mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

Is é an chuspóir is mó sa mBille seo ná an tionscal cuairtíochta a chur ar aghaidh sa nGaeltacht agus í a chur ar fáil do na daoine ann. Is é mo thuairim féin, as ucht na tograí atá sa mBille, go mbeidh seans ag muinntir na Gaeltachta nach raibh acu riamh cheana agus is é sin cuairteoirí a mhealladh insteach san nGaeltacht.

Tá fhios agam go bhfuil suim mhór ag daoine sa Ghaeltacht san tograí sa mBille seo chomh maith le daoine laismuigh de. Tá áthas orm a rá go bhfuaireamar moltaí ó mhórán daoine go bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge agus, freisin, tabharfaidh siad pé cabhair is féidir leo chun cuspóirí an Bhille do chur ar aghaidh.

As far as the points made by the different Senators are concerned, perhaps I should deal first with what I call the ordinary provisions dealing with ordinary housing under the Bill. Senators will see that, under these provisions, very generous grants are being given for new houses and for improvement grants, and also for the modernisation of existing houses by way of providing bathrooms, sewerage and water, where necessary. They all fit in with the main object we have as far as these proposals are concerned.

With regard to the chalet provisions, may I emphasise the matter from the point of raising the economic standard of the people in the Gaeltacht? It is very difficult indeed in these backward places to get something that has a hope of surviving from a business point of view. What I mean by that is that, due to the long distances Gaeltacht areas are situated from railway stations, and so on, the cost of transport, as far as locating industry in these isolated areas is concerned, would generally be prohibitive. Therefore, one could not expect—except possibly for some particular industry in respect of which the raw material was available there on the spot—to make much headway in that direction.

The one industry that has made progress, not alone here but in every country with isolated backward areas, is the tourist industry. That is equally true about the Highlands of Scotland and the isolated parts of Austria up from the valley of the Inn. Where they have set out to cater for tourism there, it has left a permanent mark on their economy. I have no doubt that if full advantage is taken by the people of the Gaeltacht of this Bill it can have a very dramatic effect on their economic life.

Under the chalet provisions, they are entitled to three chalets. As far as the first chalet is concerned, they are entitled to get a grant of half the cost or up to £200 and a loan of up to £200. The reason I differentiated between the first chalet and the others in respect of which money will be provided on loan is that I consider the first chalet the most important of all. It can have a number of different uses. As I said in the Dáil, it can be used as a dower house. From the social point of view, particularly in Gaeltacht areas and also in congested areas, there has been much easaointeas between the young man or the young woman who gets married and the old people of the house. Under these provisions, the first chalet can be used either by the young people, if they want to settle down and marry there, or by the old people.

The second use is, where they have a good house themselves in places like Cois Fairrge or other places in the Gaeltacht, that they can move to the chalet and let the house that is well-equipped, having been served by water, sewerage facilities and with a bathroom, and so on. They can let it to the visitors. In the third place, they can let the first chalet. They are entitled to put up two more or at least to get money on loan under this scheme from my Department for two further chalets for the purpose of letting.

While I emphasise that this chalet scheme is just the general outline of a national scheme for tourism in the Gaeltacht, once we have the accommodation there we shall be coming in with a number of other smaller schemes that will fit in with our main objective. It is my intention, for instance, where fresh-water fishing is available in a Gaeltacht area, to bring in schemes to promote angling there and thus enable the people with chalets to get in on a potential tourist market from February until September. In every other case—and the whole of the Fíor Ghaeltacht areas will qualify under this Bill—it is true to say that the one thing they have in these areas is a general wealth of scenery, in most instances, beside the sea. They have these natural advantages which have never been exploited and which, to my mind, make these areas eminently suitable for bringing at least a full national slice of the tourist cake to these people.

In respect of some of the suggestions that have been made here—I think it was by Senator Ó Cíosáin—that local organisations should be encouraged to take full advantage of the provisions of the Bill, I am glad to say we have already got many suggestions on similar lines from many bodies interested in the language movement and in the provisions of this Bill. They have volunteered their full help in any type of promotion organisation of that kind.

It is also possible, and indeed I believe it is quite feasible, that when we get the accommodation there, we can have an organisation or a centre in the cities that will channel the kind of people we want down to these areas where these chalets are being provided. I should like to point out to Senator O'Quigley that the sole purpose of the provisions of this Bill is to provide not only for the people within limistear na Gaeltachta but also the people who realise the value of the Irish language and are prepared to speak it in their own homes. Indeed, it would be difficult to justify, from the taxpayers' point of view, the provision of benefits of this kind, for people who are not concerned with the preservation of the Gaeltacht, and who are not themselves prepared to use the language and to promote it in Gaeltacht areas.

Senator O'Quigley may not have seen this possibility, that unless I worded Section 4 in the way I did word it, that chalets will go to people who are ordinarily resident in Gaeltacht areas, plus those I am satisfied use the Irish language habitually, it would leave this scheme wide open to all kinds of abuses. Some merchant prince from Dublin, who possibly would not know the Irish language, might come down and look for a chalet at the expense of the Gaeltacht. It would also leave it open to other promoters—shall I call them?—of tourism, in different parts of the country, to take benefits under this Bill, the object of which is to help the people who are living in the Gaeltacht, not only to promote tourism for them but to provide an income for them. If a man in the Gaeltacht has two or three chalets, he will get a reasonable rent for them, and indeed the increase in income might run into £100 or £150 a year, and it would make a tremendous impact on the standard of living both of himself and his family.

The point was made that chalets are not defined in the Bill. I suppose, strictly speaking, that is true, but we may and will have regulations just as we now have regulations as to the type of plans that we approve in respect of housing which is administered by my Department. We shall have similar regulations so far as the chalets are concerned, in respect of their requirements, measurements and so on. They will have to be approved by the officials of my Department before a grant will be sanctioned. As a matter of interest, I may say that some Senators may have been at the Spring Show and may have seen the chalet which was on exhibition there. That, in my opinion, would qualify for a grant.

So far as the bruanna or hostels are concerned, as Senator Ó Siochfhradha rightly surmised, they will probably be provided for students in connection with the language movement. What we have in mind is that where there are worthwhile committees, those responsible can avail of this provision. We also have in mind that the different communities which run schools may find it advisable to bring a certain number of their students down to the hostels during the summer months. Not only would they be under supervision but they would get the benefit of the practice of the spoken language and in that way help the language cause.

I should also mention that I introduced some time ago a scheme for helping with the provision of secondary education, which is very badly needed, in the Gaeltacht. We are making some progress, and if we do not provide secondary education in the Gaeltacht, we will not get the raw material to come to the universities and eventually fill the posts in the Gaeltacht which it is desirable to have filled by native speakers. The development of secondary education is going ahead in the Gaeltacht. It may be quite useful and helpful to have power of this kind to provide hostels where they may be necessary in that connection. It was never intended by me nor was it the intention of the Department that a single individual should get £5,000 from the Roinn for his own use, for the building of a hostel of his own, under the section.

Senator Murphy welcomed the Bill and expressed the view that it might be a good thing if its terms could be applied elsewhere. So far as I am concerned, I am trying to look after one part of the country for which I am responsible so I cannot express any opinion on that.

Báisteann an sagairt a leanbh féin ar dtús.

Sin é. Tá mo dhotháin a dhéanamh agam chun an dualgas sin a chomhlíonadh.

I should like to ask the Minister is there any chalet other than the one from Banagher which was exhibited at the Spring Show in Dublin.

There is no other chalet nor have my Department laid down the particulars about the chalets. I only said that the Banagher chalet would, in my opinion, qualify under the provisions of the Bill. It is about the size and type of structure that I think would be suitable.

I still think a definition of the word chalet might be necessary because some of those houses which will be constructed might subsequently be neglected and become more like sheds. To my mind, chalets are wooden structures and I cannot imagine a wooden structure on the western seaboard. Structures of tiles, concrete or masonry might subsequently be neglected and become eyesores, so a definition of the chalet type of building would still be necessary. To my mind, one of the things necessary in those areas is plenty of lime-wash. I have travelled through many parts of the country and I have heard many comments on the lack of lime-wash.

I should like Senators to advert to the fact that grants and loans of £200 are contemplated in this Bill, which, in turn, means that it is the building of a type of chalet which could be erected for that amount that is contemplated. Needless to say, the housing and engineering officials in my Department will lay down certain specifications as to the type of chalets and as to the space which must be available in order to qualify for these grants. It may be that in time some of the people in the Gaeltacht areas, in order to attract possibly a better and wealthier customer, may put up more elaborate chalets. The more elaborate they are, the better we shall like it, but our help is confined to what is laid down in this Bill. I do not think there is any necessity to put in any further definition because it would be impossible to put in a definition to cover every type of holiday building. If the specifications to be laid down are left to the officials of my Department, Senators need not worry.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Next Stage?

This Bill is generally agreed and acceptable and it is advisable that the people should get the benefit of it as soon as possible. Perhaps, with the agreement of the House, we might take the remaining Stages today?

A number of very interesting points have been raised, and the Minister, in his concluding speech, has also raised some interesting points. It is desirable that the Seanad should have an opportunity of going through the Bill in detail. When you are not in agreement on a Bill, discussion on the Committee Stage is often not very fruitful but when you are in agreement, as in this case, the Committee Stage is often fruitful. It would be a pity if we could not have a proper Committee Stage on this Bill. The time is another question.

The Seanad may not meet for some while now——

After the election.

——and in that case it might be more beneficial to the people of the Gaeltacht if we could deal with the Bill now.

That is the old familiar argument of all Governments. It is an all-Party argument. The Bill has taken years to produce and it is only now we are dealing with it. Nevertheless, we are asked to pass it in a few minutes and I do not think it is right. There is the argument that benefits will accrue but the benefits ought to accrue intelligently and we ought to make the benefits as good as we can make them by giving some consideration to them. Therefore, the Bill should be discussed on Committee Stage. There are several points I wish to raise because this happens to be a matter I know something about.

I was only going on all the goodwill that was expressed from the other side and on the rapid passage of the Bill through the Dáil with the benediction of the Fine Gael Party, but if they do not want to give the remaining Stages now, it does not matter.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I suggest the Committee and remaining Stages be fixed for the next sitting day.

Committee Stage ordered for next sitting day.
Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.
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