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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Mar 1961

Vol. 53 No. 13

Mental Treatment Bill, 1960—— Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

I should like to say at the outset that it is not intended as a comprehensive amendment of the existing Mental Treatment Acts. Its main purposes are to improve procedures under the existing Acts and to make certain changes in the superannuation provisions applicable to mental hospital staff. As Senators will be aware, I have decided to set up a Commission of Inquiry into the whole subject of mental illness. There has been in the past decade or so, an enormous change in the approach to this condition and it is very desirable that, in the light of that change, there should be a full review of all aspects of our services for the mentally ill. The commission will undertake that task. While it is thus engaged it would be inappropriate, I think, that I should attempt to introduce new legislation to amend the existing code. Experience has shown, however, that as an interim measure, it is desirable to effect some machinery changes in the existing provisions and these are proposed in the Bill.

Unfortunately, the type of Bill before the House involves "legislation by reference". For the convenience of the members of the Oireachtas, I circulated a full explanatory memorandum with the Bill. I also decided that it would be desirable to publish a booklet setting out the procedure in relation to the reception and detention of patients and quoting the relevant statutory provisions as they will be amended if this Bill is enacted. A preliminary draft of that booklet has been made available to Senators. I trust that it will obviate much of the labour involved in linking the proposed provisions with the parent sections and that it will give a better picture of what the code will look like if the Bill is enacted. The booklet does not cover the provisions in relation to superannuation. These, however, are explained in the explanatory memorandum and I shall refer to them in some detail later. A few provisions of the Bill as introduced were amended in the Dáil. They were, however, largely of a drafting nature and have not altered the purport of the sections materially nor have they necessitated changes in the explanatory memorandum which was issued with the Bill.

In relation to patients, the principal change which the Bill will make is the extension to all medical practitioners of the power to make a recommendation, or to sign a certificate, in respect of the admission of a chargeable patient to hospital. A chargeable patient is, broadly, a patient in a local authority hospital who is in the lower or middle income group and is, therefore, eligible for hospital services free or at less than cost. Under the existing legislation, when a recommendation, or certificate, is required for such a person it can be provided only by the authorised medical officer, who is, normally, the district medical officer of the dispensary district where the patient resides. This restriction precludes a patient, or the person who may be obliged to act for him, from availing himself of the services of the family doctor, should the latter not be the local district medical officer. The majority of doctors including, indeed, psychiatric specialists, are thus debarred from providing their patients with the necessary certificate of recommendation. I am satisfied that this disability should be removed and that the power to make a recommendation, or sign a certificate for reception, in the case of a chargeable patient, should be extended to all medical practitioners, subject, however, to certain disqualifications—grounded mainly on relationship to, or financial interest in, a patient.

Section 3 of the proposed measure gives the Minister power to make Regulations authorising the making of payments to patients in respect of work done. At present there is no specific authority for the making of such payments although, in practice, payments are made in some hospitals. In general, I visualise the making of token payments only, Such payments will encourage patients and offer them an incentive to occupy themselves usefully and for their own good.

Section 9 is intended to operate in cases where it is believed that a person is of unsound mind and, that as a matter of urgency for the public safety or for the safety of the person himself, he should be placed under care and control. It puts beyond doubt the power of a member of the Garda Síochána to enter upon premises and to take such a person into custody and to bring him, if necessary, to a Garda Síochána station.

Sections 16 and 17 make it necessary that an application for the reception into a mental institution of a temporary patient, whether chargeable or private, shall be made only by a person who is at least 21 years of age. I think it will be generally agreed that nobody should be compulsorily detained in a mental institution otherwise than on the application of an adult person. In addition, Section 17 will provide that a Reception Order must be made only by a registered medical practitioner. This is designed to remove an anomaly in the existing Act, under which the Reception Order could, in the case of a private hospital, be made by a lay person.

Section 18 transfers from the Minister, to the chief medical officer of the institution concerned, the power to extend the period of detention of a temporary patient. A temporary patient is, broadly, a person who is mentally ill, but is believed to require for his recovery not more than six months' suitable treatment. Addicts who by reason of addiction to drugs or intoxicants would benefit by compulsory detention for a limited period also fall within the category of temporary patients. The initial period of detention for both types of case is six months. Under the 1945 Act, power is vested in the Minister for Health to grant extensions of this period up to a total of 18 months. In the case of an addict, though the period of detention can thus be extended to two years, it has been the practice not to grant extensions beyond a period of one year in the belief that if the patient's addiction is not successfully treated within 12 months, there is little use in continuing to detain him further. It is proposed, under subsection (1) (a) (i) of Section 18, to establish this practice by statute. In the case, however, of persons other than addicts, extensions up to 18 months may be granted as heretofore.

In relation to the change to be made under Section 18, it will be appreciated that in deciding whether or not to grant an extension of the period of detention of a mental patient, the person who happens, for the time being, to be Minister has to rely on his professional advisers. In view of the number of extensions involved—nearly 3,000 per year at present—they in turn have to rely, to a very large extent, on the recommendation of the chief medical officer of the mental institution concerned. They will seldom know the patient. Even in the exceptional case where they may remember having seen the patient, it will usually have been once or twice only and for short periods. The Minister's professional advisers are very rarely, therefore, in a position, from their own knowledge of the patient, to decide whether he should or should not be detained and, in practice the word of the chief medical officer of the institution has to be accepted.

It is at least doubtful if this procedure provides a real safeguard. I believe, indeed, that the procedure proposed under the relevant section will constitute a more effective protection for the patient. Under it the patient and the person who applied for the original reception order must be advised that they can send to the Inspector of Mental Hospitals an objection to the proposed extension. On receipt of any such objection, the Inspector of Mental Hospitals will be obliged to require the medical officer of the institution to submit a full report on the patient. On consideration of this report, the Inspector is then obliged to take such steps as he considers necessary to ascertain whether or not the detention of the patient should be continued. In this connection I may say that in Sections 239 and 240 of the Principal Act, that is, the Act of 1945, there is provision that if the Inspector has any doubt regarding the propriety of detaining a patient he is bound to report to the Minister and the Minister has power to require him to visit the patient and to make a report on his condition. Having considered the report, the Minister, if he thinks fit, may then order the discharge of the patient involved.

I gave serious thought to the question of whether it would be desirable to impose a duty on the Inspector to visit every patient in respect of whom or from whom an objection is received. I decided this would not be desirable or practicable. It is common practice for the Inspector to see patients who feel they are being illegally detained or who feel that they have a grievance of any kind; and it might happen that an objection would be received from or in respect of a patient whom the Inspector had seen only a week or two previously and of whose condition he was fully informed. In some instances too, it is very clear from the correspondence received from patients that, mentally, they are far from well. In the light of these considerations, it would be a waste of public money to impose a duty on the Inspector to visit a patient about the propriety of whose detention he had no doubt whatsoever. I should also point out that paragraph (b) of Section 33 imposes a duty on the Inspector, on the occasion of his statutory visits to mental institutions, to pay particular attention to the condition of those patients in them whose periods of detention have been extended since his previous visit.

Sections 197 to 202 and subsection (4) of Section 208 of the 1945 Act provide for the submission to the Minister of a mass of documents. Under these sections, notices of all receptions, departures, escapes, removals and deaths have to be submitted to the Minister. Copies of the reception documents and, in addition, in the case of temporary patients and persons of unsound mind a report on the condition of the patient 21 days after his reception, have also to be submitted. In all, these provisions result in the submission to my Department of something like 38,000 documents per year. The requirement is one that has obtained in this country since the middle of the last century.

When these documents reach my Department, they are examined to ensure that the facts recorded on the forms create a prima facie justification for the acts to which the forms relate; but since it is not possible to have the patients to whom they relate examined individually by my professional advisers, this routine scrutiny of documents cannot ensure that the statements made on the forms are accurate, or that any diagnosis made is correct. As a safeguard to the patient, the value of the whole procedure is, in my opinion, so limited as to be negligible, and I am satisfied that its continuation is not warranted, since it imposes an enormous amount of paper work on the Inspector of Mental Hospitals and his staff. I may say that a similar conclusion was reached by an expert committee of the World Health Organisation and by the recent British Royal Commission on the Law Relating to Mental Illness and Mental Deficiency.

I would ask the House when considering the wisdom of making the change which I propose to remember the many truer safeguards there are in the Mental Treatment Acts. The chief of these are:—

(1) The right which every patient has to have a letter forwarded, unopened, to any of the following: The Minister, the President of the High Court, the Registrar of Wards of Court, the Mental Hospital Authority and the Inspector of Mental Hospitals. In Section 36 of the Bill, the Oireachtas is being asked to add to these the Visiting Committee of a district mental hospital. Arising out of any such letter, the Minister may arrange for the examination of a patient by the Inspector of Mental Hospitals and for his discharge where justified; while similarly the President of the High Court may require the Inspector to visit and examine any patient detained and report to him.

(2) The fact that any person may apply to the Minister for an order for examination, by two medical practitioners, of a detained person and that the Minister must consider their report and may, if he thinks fit, direct the discharge of the patient.

(3) The fact that the law specifically requires that a patient who has recovered must be discharged.

(4) The penalties which are imposed by the Act for detention otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of the Act.

(5) The provision that the Inspector of Mental Hospitals must visit all mental institutions and that where the propriety of detention is doubtful, or where he is requested to do so by the patient himself, or by any other person, he has a duty to give special attention to the state of mind of any patient detained.

(6) That any relative or friend may apply for the discharge of a patient and that, should the application be rejected by the medical officer of the institution concerned on the certified ground that the patient is unfit for discharge, an appeal lies to the Minister.

(7) That every mental hospital authority must appoint a visiting committee, whose duties include a requirement to hear the complaints of any patient, and, if requested to do so, to see him in private.

I think the House will agree that in transferring from the Minister to the appropriate chief medical officers the power to extend the period of detention of a private patient, I am not in any way increasing the risk that any such patient will be improperly detained.

Lest there should be any misunderstanding, I should like to repeat what I told the House last week—that the decision to recommend to the legislature the change proposed in Section 18 was taken before, and is unrelated to, the events which necessitated the introduction and the passage into law of the recent Bill to regularise the situation in regard to the detention of certain patients.

Sections 19 and 20 obviate the necessity for a medical recommendation for the admission to a mental institution of a voluntary patient who is over the age of 16 years. I consider that if a person who has passed this age-limit is prepared to enter a mental hospital voluntarily he should not be unduly discouraged by formal procedures and that accordingly the existing requirement that a medical recommendation must be produced may be dispensed with.

Section 22 and Sections 26-30 transfer to the Medical Superintendent of a district mental hospital the functions hitherto vested in the Manager in relation to the release of a patient on trial, to the giving of notices of recovery and to the discharge of patients. I think it will be agreed that the Medical Superintendent should be in a better position than the Manager to exercise these functions. He knows the patients and by virtue of the appointment which he holds he must be presumed at least to be competent to decide whether it is appropriate that the particular patient concerned should be allowed out on trial or discharged. A similar change is proposed in relation to the release on trial of patients in private mental hospitals and homes. At present this function is vested in the Inspector of Mental Hospitals, and the Inspector will seldom from his own knowledge be in a position to say whether a patient should or should not be released on trial and it is therefore proposed to transfer the function to the person in charge. It is also proposed that in a private institution where the person in charge may happen not to be a registered medical practitioner notice of recovery must be given by a duly qualified person.

The present arrangements for preventive and after-care services for patients are regarded as inadequate. Section 31 of the Bill proposes to give a mental hospital authority a specific power, subject to the sanction of the Minister, to provide these effectively.

Apart from those I have mentioned the provisions in the Bill which relate to patients are mainly of a consequential technical or administrative nature and I do not think any major principle is involved in any of them.

I shall now deal with the provisions relating to superannuation. The main purpose of these is to bring mental hospital staff within the general scope of the Local Government (Superannuation) Act, 1956, and as a consequence to transfer from the Minister for Health to the Minister for Local Government functions in relation to the superannuation of such staff.

The Mental Treatment Act, 1945 and the Asylum Officers Superannuation Act, 1909 govern the superannuation of all mental hospital staffs and functions under these Acts are exercised by the Minister for Health. Apart however, from staff employed by harbour authorities all other local authority staffs are subject to the Local Government (Superannuation) Acts— in particular the Local Government (Superannuation) Act, 1956. The Minister for Local Government is the appropriate Minister for the purposes of these Acts. Apart from mental hospital staff, all other local staff, as I have said, engaged on health duties come within the scope of the Local Government (Superannuation) Acts.

Now that the Health Authorities Act, 1960, is in operation I think it is desirable to end the present anomalous position under which two separate superannuation codes are being applied to the two different groups of officers and servants engaged on the health services The Bill accordingly proposes that mental hospital staff shall be brought within the general framework of the code relating to local authorities generally, with the Minister for Local Government as the appropriate Minister.

The principal superannuation provisions are contained in subsections 1, 2 and 5 of Section 41 and the First Schedule. Subsection 1 of Section 41 provides for the application of the 1956 Act to mental hospital staffs subject to the amendments specified in the First Schedule. In effect, subsection 3 of Section 41 makes the Minister for Local Government the appropriate Minister in respect of the superannuation of mental hospital staff—with the exception of one small feature to which I shall refer later. Subsection 5 of Section 41 continues for existing permanent staff the provisions of Sections 77 and 78 of the Mental Treatment Act, 1945. These sections permit of the grant of a superannuation award to the widow and/or orphan of a person dying in the service from any physical or mental illness contracted while in the service. Under the Local Government code such awards can be made only if death results from injury sustained in the course of duty. The rights which existing officers and servants enjoy under the 1945 Act are thus being preserved. Officers and servants—and there are still some in the service—who are still governed by the 1909 Act opted out of the 1945 Act and accordingly have not the right to these special provisions. However, paragraphs 6 (5) (e) and 11 (5) (e) of the First Schedule to the Bill afford them a second opportunity of acquiring these rights.

Apart from making the necessary technical amendments to permit of the application of the Local Government code to existing and future mental hospital staff, the First Schedule makes special provision in regard to superannuation for those who have the care or charge of patients in the normal course of their duties. It applies to them the same provisions as already apply to fire brigade officers and servants. In effect this continues the existing arrangement under which in the calculation of superannuation each year of service in excess of 20 counts as two years, and retirement is possible at the age of 55 instead of at the age of 60.

At present mental hospital staffs pay a superannuation contribution of 3% while other local authority staffs first appointed on or after the 1st April, 1948 pay a contribution of 5% in the case of officers and 4?% in the case of servants. The First Schedule contains provision that any existing permanent officer or servant in the mental hospital service will not be required to pay a higher contribution than 3% during such time as he continues to be employed in the local authority service.

In general, it may be taken that the new superannuation provisions will be more advantageous than those operating at present for existing permanent staff. In case, however, there may be some particular circumstances which would make the existing provisions more attractive in an individual case, the option is given to every existing permanent officer and servant of accepting the new provisions or of staying under the provisions which at present apply to him.

It may help if I set out the main gains and losses in the new provisions. The main gains may be summarised as follows:—

1. Allowances and lump sums will be calculated normally on the basis of remuneration at the date of retirement, and not as at present on the basis of average remuneration over a period of three years.

2. If an officer or servant sustains an injury in the course of duty, and he dies within seven years as a direct result of the injury, a gratuity or allowance may be paid to widow or widower as the case may be, to a dependent father or mother and to or in respect of dependent children. Under the Mental Treatment Code the position is broadly that not only must death occur in service but gratuities or allowances are paid only to widows and children, and not to widowers or to dependent parents.

3. A short service gratuity will be payable after one year of service. A minimum qualifying period of ten years is necessary under the 1909 Act and of five years under the 1945 Act.

4. An allowance and lump sum will be payable on reaching an age limit after ten years of service. The qualifying period under the Mental Treatment Code is 20 years.

5. In the case of officers, added years for superannuation purposes may be granted in accordance with the provisions of Section 13 of the Local Government (Superannuation) Act, 1956. The chief advantages of these provisions are that years may be added in respect of professional qualifications, in respect of temporary service immediately preceding permanent service, and in cases where the officer retires due to an age limit imposed after his appointment.

6. Superannuation benefits will be payable to servants who are not continuously employed but who work more than 200 days in a year.

The losses are two in number and will apply only to future entrants—(1) future entrants will have to pay the normal Local Government Superannuation contribution, which is 5 per cent. in the case of officers and 4? per cent. in the case of servants. The present contribution for all mental hospital staff is three per cent. (2) Future entrants will be eligible for allowances for widows and orphans only if death is due to injury sustained in the course of duty, and not as at present in respect of death in service whether it is due to injury or not.

Future servants will be superannuated on the basis of 60ths with no lump sum as against the present 80ths plus a lump sum. I have not listed this as a gain or a loss as it could be either depending on the circumstances of the individual concerned. The remaining superannuation provisions are of limited application.

Section 40 covers the position of a person who was a civil servant, who became a mental hospital officer and later became a civil servant for a second time. The Section is designed to remove a doubt as to whether his first period of service in the Civil Service can now be reckoned for superannuation purposes. Section 41 (2) is a technical amendment covering the reduction of an allowance in the case of a person who is reappointed to the public service. Section 41 (4) deals with the keeping of a Register of persons who have the care or charge of patients in the normal course of their duties. This is the one superannuation aspect in respect of which the Minister for Health remains the appropriate Minister. Officers or servants who devote the whole of their time to the care or charge of patients are automatically entitled to be entered in the Register. In the case of officers or servants who devote only a part of their time to the care or charge of patients they may automatically be entered if they fulfil certain conditions which will be laid down in Regulations to be made by the Minister. Persons who are not entered in the Register in either of these ways and who think they should be so entered may appeal to the Minister. Any person whose name is removed from the Register and who feels it should not be so removed can also appeal to the Minister.

Section 41 (6) is of limited application. It provides that where before the passing of the Act a person who had to retire owing to an age limit which was not in operation at the time of his appointment and who did not obtain full pension may have years added for the purposes of calculating the amount of the allowance and lump sum granted to him. There was provision for a similar addition in the case of the 1909 Act and there is a similar provision in the 1956 Act.

Arising out of the new proposals for superannuation it is my intention in due course to prepare a detailed memorandum for the information of all existing officers and servants who are affected by them. This should enable those concerned to decide whether to accept the new provisions or to remain subject to the provisions which at present apply to them.

It will be noted from Section 43 that the provisions in regard to superannuation shall come into operation on a 1st day of April. This is necessary to keep these provisions in line with those in the Local Government (Superannuation) Act, 1956. I trust that the Seanad will see its way to permit the Bill to be enacted in time to make the coming 1st April the operative date.

The Minister's concluding words contained a hope that this Bill will be enacted before 1st April next. He will get unusual cooperation from this side of the House on a piece of legislation of this kind, which deals with those among us who are mentally afflicted. Everybody's object is to make such a Bill the best possible and to put it through as expeditiously as possible. The Minister stated that the measure is not comprehensive for the reason that a committee on mental treatment has been established by him and he does not wish to prejudice the outcome of its deliberations. I trust it will not be out of order to make some passing reference to a few general matters affecting mental treatment and persons who are mentally ill.

I think it proper to record appreciation of the Minister's efforts to enable the Oireachtas to grasp as clearly as possible the purpose and effect of this Bill. The explanatory memorandum is well calculated to enable one to understand the purpose of each section. In addition, the Minister afforded us the courtesy of circulating a copy of the memorandum relating to the whole of the mental treatment code embodying the provisions of this Bill, if it becomes law. With all that documentation, we are well in a position to assess the changes being made by the Bill.

The Minister referred to the change in approach to mental illness since the introduction of the 1945 Mental Treatment Bill. The booklet about to be published by the Minister's Department will further accelerate the desirable change in approach to mental illness. I urge him to take more positive steps than merely the publishing of a book to bring home to the public that the approach to mental illness has now reached the stage that was evident in regard to the treatment of tuberculosis as short a while as 15 or 20 years ago.

In his report on the estimate for expenses for County Mayo for 1961-62, the county manager observes that 85 per cent. of those admitted to the mental hospital in Castlebar in the previous year were discharged. If that fact and similar information in relation to other mental hospitals were widely known, people would regard a stay in a mental hospital as nothing more than a stay in an ordinary surgical hospital. If people realise that mental illness is as capable of being cured as physical illness, in many cases, there would be earlier, and consequently more effective, treatment. In addition to the publication of booklets, which may not reach a large proportion of the public, the Minister's Department should undertake a scheme of propaganda designed to bring the facts in relation to mental illness home to the public.

I agree it is far better that certification should not now depend on the dispensary doctor. There seems to be every reason why it should be the other way round, particularly when the dispensary doctor is not the family doctor of the patient. The family doctor, together with another opinion, would be in a much better position to assess the need of a patient for detention in a mental hospital.

An aspect of mental treatment which disturbs many people is the growing tendency to have old people who are not insane but who may be of feeble mind detained in mental institutions. In some cases, this is done because the economic circumstances of the family of the aged person do not permit of the giving of the care that is required. If the old who are feebleminded require some form of institutional care or treatment, I should hope that the ordinary mental hospital would not be the place where these people should spend their old age, and that consideration might be given to the establishment of other institutions with a more congenial atmosphere for the housing of these unfortunate people.

Perhaps an effective check upon the too ready incarceration of people in mental institutions would be to ensure that, where such a person is detained in a mental institution, the family should pay to the full of the private means of that patient for the patient's detention in a mental institution. I can see the attitude the Minister may take up on this. I can anticipate the reply he may give. He may say that nobody is admitted to a mental institution except upon certificates given by competent medical authorities or detained unless those certificates are forthcoming. We know of cases where people have gone into mental institutions when the family either left the country or area and there is no place to which the person, when recovered, may return. Consequently, the only place where they can be detained is either the county home or a mental institution. If there is any reason at all for keeping them in a mental institution, there are instances of their being so detained. That is the kind of human problem which no law can effectively eradicate but it is one which I would urge the Minister to direct his mind to. Indeed, it may well be one of the problems that would be dealt with by the committee which he has established.

I entirely agree that the 38,000 documents which flowed into the Minister's Department ought to be done away with. The abolition of these documents will not, I think, as the Minister indicated, in any way endanger the liberty or security of the persons who are being detained in mental hospitals. I cannot understand how it is possible to diagnose the mental state of a person perhaps 70, 80 or 100 miles away from an examination of a bundle of papers. Consequently, these returns serve no useful purpose whatever and the continuance of that practice is not warranted.

The Minister was punctilious both last Wednesday and to-day in indicating that the provision in the Bill to transfer the authority to detain people in mental hospitals from himself to the R.M.S. and the chief medical officer was taken before the discovery was made which required the Mental Treatment (Detention in Approved Institutions) Bill, 1961. I am sure the Minister will be glad to know that nobody doubts that for a moment. I think it is far better that responsibility should rest where knowledge and competence exist to decide a matter of that kind. The chief medical officer of the mental institution is the person who should have the responsibility to decide whether or not a person should continue to be detained in the mental institution.

I observe that the Bill proposes to change the name of Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum to the Central Mental Hospital. There are a number of people detained in that institution who are in no sense criminal or, indeed, criminally responsible because they have never been able to stand trial. There are some who have stood trial for committing what would otherwise be a crime and have been found to be insane. I think, from the standpoint of a lawyer, it is right and proper that the word "criminal", which serves no useful purpose, in any event, should be deleted from the name of that institution.

It occurs to me, however, that the provisions in the Bill in relation to the detention of people in certain circumstances requires some clarification. What I am concerned about is the position that obtains in relation to a person who is unable to plead in the district court or, in fact, who may be returned for trial to the circuit court or the Central Criminal Court and who is then found to be unfit to plead. As I understand the position at the present time, there is apparently authority vested, I take it, in the Minister for Health—perhaps, it is the Minister for Justice; I do not know—that when such a person recovers, he is released without requiring him ever to be put on trial.

I know that has happened and while nobody wants to see anybody sent to prison, the public good would require at times that people ought to be brought to justice. Persons who, while entirely in possession of all their faculties, commit a flagrant breach of the criminal law and who subsequently become mentally afflicted, when they recover from mental illness, should have to stand trial for the crime of which they have been accused. I should be glad if the Minister would indicate the authority which enables a person, who has been found unfit to plead, to be released from Dundrum Asylum without ever having to stand trial.

One of the more important sections of the Bill, to my mind, at any rate, is Section 33 which imposes additional duties on the Inspector of Mental Hospitals. I notice from the Estimates for 1961/62 that there are only two officers in the Minister's Department— one Inspector of Mental Hospitals and one assistant Inspector of Mental Hospitals. May I express the hope, in passing, that with the introduction of this Bill and the extension of the duties to be discharged by the Inspector of Mental Hospitals, the appropriate increase in staff will be forthcoming and that the mental patients in this country will not suffer in any way through lack of increased staff in view of the increased duties imposed on the Inspector of Mental Hospitals under this Bill.

Section 33 of the Bill imposes a duty to see every patient where the Inspector of Mental Hospitals has doubt about the propriety of his detention. It also imposes a duty on the inspector to inspect every part of the premises included in the institution and to ascertain whether or not due regard is being had in the management of the institution to this Act and the regulations made thereunder and to ascertain whether or not the accommodation provided in the institution is adequate and suitable.

That is a highly necessary provision in the Bill because I have here before me the report to which I referred of the county manager for the County of Mayo which contains matter which is scandalous and which ought to receive the immediate attention of the Minister for Health.

The county manager has been unusually candid in publishing the report of an architect to deal with the structural condition of the mental hospital in Castlebar and a few extracts from the report indicate that it is very necessary that there should be somebody to supervise the structural condition of and accommodation in mental hospitals. The report refers, at page 26—and I may say in other respects it is an admirable report— to the following:

The roofs throughout—that is, throughout the hospital — show many missing slates and ridge tiles. All of the older chimneys require immediate attention. Generally they are built of brick with cut stone cappings. In many places these cappings are displaced and appear to be in a dangerous condition.

That is not such a bad state of affairs as is revealed later on in the report.

Dealing with the internal position, which is the part that immediately affects the living conditions of the patients and medical staff, it says :—

There is very extensive evidence of wood rot—that is what one might expect when slates are missing— particularly wet rot, throughout the whole of the Institution.

That is a remarkable and scandalous state of affairs—that mental patients have to live in a place where wood rot is extensive.

The report continues :—

There is also extensive evidence of woodworm infestation.

It would seem probable that all of the timber floors at ground level will require renewal because of wet rot, general decay or worn-out condition. Practically all of the pre-1930 upper floors will also require renewal because of their worn out condition and woodworm infestation.

One wonders, reading a report of that kind, what the Inspector of Mental Hospitals, not to speak of the authorities on the spot, have been doing all these years. Indeed, for that reason, it seems, eminently desirable that the Inspector of Mental Hospitals should be vested with full authority to investigate all aspects of mental hospital institutions.

Later on, we read that:

The roofs of the bay-windows generally are of timber construction and all of them show leaks and some of them show rot.

One wonders how it is hoped that, in such conditions, mental patients can enjoy good physical health which would seem to be a prerequisite for the restoration of mental health. The report continues:

All of the main roofs are defective, more or less. I inspected one roof space only of the pre-1904 structure. This was extraordinarily dirty and consequently it was difficult to carry out a very detailed examination. However, there was very obvious evidence of extensive woodworm infestation and extensive wet rot damage. The trimmers around two of the chimneys were very badly decayed and one valley rafter was really dangerously decayed. Because of the amount of cobwebs and dust it was not possible to examine the wall-plates or the feet of the rafters, but I think it is a reasonable assumption that they are both affected.

I remember getting a description of the Charter Schools which, if my recollection is correct, were notorious institutions according to Irish historians. The conditions in which children had to live in these schools came back to me when I began reading this document. I think it is a public scandal and shows a grave dereliction of duty, warranting some inquiry, private, departmental or otherwise, to ascertain who has been responsible for allowing a public health institution to fall into such a state and who has allowed this institution to become a place in which the mentally afflicted from County Mayo have been compelled, under physical restraint, to reside all these years.

In regard to sleeping accommodation, the report states:

I examined the new roof over No. 10 Dormitory. There is quite an amount of woodworm infestation here. Many of the ridge tiles had been blown off and quite a number of slates were missing.

Bills of this kind, unless there is adequate financial backing, will not remedy, I fear, the conditions in which the patients in the Castlebar Mental Hospital are living. The place where they sleep is leaking and apparently nothing is being said or done by anyone. This is not something that has resulted from a great wind. This is the product of years of neglect and it is a shocking indictment of those responsible, and immediately and ultimately responsible, for it.

The report goes on:

The main heating runs require immediate attention. The ducts which were inspected show extensive flooding and in places the water is actually two feet deep in them.

I do not know sufficient about central heating to understand what precisely is meant by that paragraph, but if there are two feet of water in the ducts intended to carry warm air, there does not appear to me to be anything like an adequate amount of heating. This is the kind of condition that one might expect to read about in the concentration camps in Soviet Russia. It is an appalling thing that, with visiting committees, county managers, chief medical officers of health, Ministers for Health, Departments of Health, and so on, such a situation should ever be permitted to develop.

The report goes on to say:

The main pipe lines appear to be stripped of their lagging.

The calorifier chambers are wide open to the elements and the calorifiers generally are stripped of their laggings...

—again apparently designed to promote good heating in the institution.

The consequent heat lost must be very considerable.

The architect then goes on to give a general summary——

According to the World Health Organisation Public Health Paper "Psychiatric Services and Architecture", this hospital suffers from most of the worst features ordinarily ascribed to older buildings. Apart from the environmental aspect, massive and barrack-like structure behind high stone walls, the detail accommodation appears to be wholly inadequate.

As one who was brought up in Castlebar, I can bear eloquent testimony to the bleak walls, with this building exposed, on the southwestern side, to all the elements and not a tree to be seen between the mental hospital and the railway line where the boundary is. People passing from Castlebar to Westport can see the unfortunate people in their ragged and tattered garb walking around the grounds getting fresh air.

The report further continues:

There is one room only to accommodate the office staff, one room only for the whole of the medical staff and one room only to provide for active therapy. The patient accommodation is overcrowded with a total lack of privacy and the sanitary accommodation is inadequate.

I wonder how much worse could any building be, and particularly a health building?

Those are the disclosures in this candid report of the architect. The county manager may be to blame for the conditions into which this institution has been permitted to fall, but if he is to blame, let us say in his favour that he has the candour and the courage to publish this as a public document, available to the public, and with no gloss on it. It is all very well for 38,000 documents to have been flowing into the Department of Health over all these years. Thanks to the Minister, that piece of tomfoolery is now being dispensed with. I hope that when the Inspector of Mental Hospitals comes to make his reports under Section 33 in relation to the operation of this Act in its application to Castlebar Mental Hospital, it will be as thought-provoking and candid and bring as much shame to those responsible as this report of the architect in the county manager's report.

I should be glad if the Minister would give some indication that the appalling conditions which prevail in Castlebar Mental Hospital will be treated as an emergency in the public interest and in the interests of these unfortunate people, and that money will be provided immediately to deal with this hospital as if it were a case of a public hospital being flooded or its roof being blown off by a storm. This is an accumulation of years of shameful neglect. When the Minister comes into this House to seek approval for any kind of Bill which we have no power to alter in relation to the provision of money on an emergency basis for a hospital of this kind, I certainly will say only that I entirely agree with the Bill and will try to have it put through immediately.

As one who was a member of a mental hospital committee for quite a number of years, I should like to welcome this Bill, and I am glad to see that both in the Dáil and in this House, there is general agreement on the value of its provisions.

I was appalled to hear the report read by Senator O'Quigley and his comments thereon. I cannot understand how such a state of affairs could have been permitted to exist, if the visiting committee and the members of the mental hospital committee, the county council and the county manager were doing their duty, because dry rot, to which Senator O'Quigley referred, quoting from the architect's report, does not occur overnight. It must have been going on for a long period of years.

All the other defects in the old building—because it must be remembered that Castlebar Hospital is an old building, the new hospital being in Castlerea—must surely have come to the notice of the very active members of Mayo County Council and of the mental hospital committee and particularly of the county manager. Surely during all this period when this building was deteriorating so rapidly as to have reached now the condition in which it is, somebody must have drawn attention at some time to the need for action, and if that was not done, then the responsibility and the guilt must be placed fairly and squarely, in my opinion, on the shoulders of the mental hospital committee, and of Mayo County Council and of its governing directors.

I should not like members of the Seanad or the general public through the newspapers who might read an abbreviated version of Senator O'Quigley's statement to run away with the idea that the blame attaches in any way to the Minister, because those on the spot, unless they were absolutely grossly neglectful or completely oblivious or not cognisant of what was happening, were the people responsible for this situation, and who should have taken action long before now to effect a remedy.

Having said so much, I should like to support the plea which Senator O'Quigley made in his reference to the tendency that exists nowadays to have old people, who may be feeble-minded but are certainly not insane, detained in mental institutions, and his suggestion that some effort should be made to have a check on any such cases, with a view, where possible, to securing that this tendency will be stopped or, alternatively, where it has persisted, to ensure that a contribution will be made by the relatives of persons detained. It is undoubtedly a fact, and there is no use closing our eyes to it, as everybody who has any knowledge of rural life particularly knows, that in many cases the materialistic-minded younger generations which we unfortunately have in this country as in every other country to-day do not take seriously the responsibilities and duties which they owe to their parents. In many cases, when the father and mother get old and it is a question of having to look after them and they become a nuisance, everybody knows that efforts are made to find some nice cosy place to put them where they will be no trouble to the family for the rest of their days. It is sad to have to say that.

Tragic but true.

I hope sincerely that everything that can be done to put an end to that situation and to bring those young people who indulge in that malpractice to a sense of their responsibility and their Christian duty to their parents and to ensure that desirable outcome will be secured.

I am very glad the Minister has brought in this Bill, which, as he says himself, must await the report of the commission before further concrete action can be taken. I think there will be no doubt whatever that the House will assist him in his desire to have it passed into law before 1st April.

As the majority of us realise, this Bill is mainly an administrative measure and discussion will mainly be on Committee Stage. We all agree that much progress has been made over the years, but the Minister and the majority of Senators must agree that the mental services continue to be the Cinderella of our health services. Proper financial resources have never been devoted to tackling this problem. It has suffered from years of neglect.

We are told that there are between 20,000 and 25,000 persons in our mental hospitals at present, and that figure has been much the same for the past 20 or 25 years. We are told that a Government and people are judged by what they do for the sick, the afflicted and the poor. If that yardstick applies to us in Ireland in regard to our mentally ill patients, then I doubt if the Government or we as legislators can claim that our consciences are quite clear. It is estimated that the cost of providing suitable hospital buildings, in addition to improving those which we already have, for mental patients would impose a tremendous burden on our economy. Yet, the matter should be faced immediately.

Our legislation should be modernised to keep pace with the rapid advance in mental treatment in the past 25 years. We are glad to see that the walls and the barbed wire that used to surround those buildings are gone. Today, there are wide open spaces around our mental hospitals.

Speaking subject to correction, as many as 65 to 70 per cent. of the patients entering Mullingar Hospital are cured and in a much shorter time than formerly. The majority of them go back home and resume life as useful citizens.

Mental illness is still looked upon as something to hide and to be ashamed of. I remember when tuberculosis was looked upon in the same light. Our people should be educated in regard to mental illness as they were educated in regard to tuberculosis.

Those responsible for the admission of patients on a voluntary basis to mental hospitals are to be congratulated on the very satisfactory results. The number of such patients is increasing and, because of earlier diagnosis, the percentage of cures is higher. Furthermore, the patients need stay in hospital for a shorter period. Many voluntary patients attend clinics or centres for weekly, fortnightly or monthly treatment. Some attend ordinary hospitals or visit the doctor's house. I suppose that 15 or 20 per cent. of the cases need never darken the doors of a mental hospital now.

I agree with Senator Ó Maoláin and others who spoke about responsibility for parents and relatives. There is a tendency for people to put their parents and elderly relatives into mental homes or mental hospitals. Senator Ó Maoláin was inclined to suggest that an inquiry should be held into the matter. If it is necessary to change the law in that respect, the change should be brought about immediately. People must shoulder their responsibilities to their parents and elderly relatives. They should take them home and provide for them in their old age as their parents provided for them when they were young.

Many of our mental hospitals are maintaining patients in appalling conditions. Due to gross overcrowding, amounting, in some hospitals, to a public scandal, the patients cannot be treated properly. I do not blame the Minister alone for that fact but I blame him because, 40 years after achieving freedom, he has no suggestion as to how that sad situation can be remedied.

Two commissions have been set up. As a politician, I know that a commission is a Ministerial gimmick, perhaps even a Government gimmick, to have a problem forgotten. Much useful work could be done without waiting for the reports of these commissions. Sometimes a commission will sit for as long as five years. Does the Minister envisage doing something about these problems before the reports of the commissions are issued?

It is regrettable that an order was made about 25 years ago giving permission to transfer all feeble-minded people from county homes to mental hospitals. Unfortunately, that order is still availed of. If the old patient is giving any trouble in the county home, he is sent to the mental hospital where he takes up a bed and the time of doctors, which bed and which time could be devoted to trying to cure a really mentally ill patient.

Many of the buildings are old, gloomy and dark. That is not a suitable atmosphere for patients who are mentally ill and certainly not for voluntary patients and people who are just suffering from nerves. Another objectionable feature is the horrible suit of clothes the patient is compelled to wear. Since the gates have been opened, since the walls have been lowered, since the barbed wire has been removed and the patients allowed to go into the town, to the pictures, to a football match, to a fair or to roam the streets, those horrible clothes give the patient an inferiority complex.

Very few patients try to escape now, though many formerly tried to escape. That is the mentality of the Irish people—it is hard to drive them. I think something should be done about the clothes they have to wear. Every boy in the street, every young person knows when the patients go by. They say: "There is a mental hospital patient—I know by his clothes." That is altogether wrong. I think Irish tweeds of different colours should be provided. Instead of having the same old drab clothing, there should be a variety of colours, both for the female and for the male patients. There is nothing that the female prides herself so much on as gay colours. No female likes to see another person wearing the exact colour or the same dress material as she herself wears. I think this should be changed. The materials and the dresses should be changed without waiting for any report from any commission.

We also have the problem of mentally handicapped children. I think too many are sent at the present time to mental hospitals. That is a scandalous state of affairs which needs to be remedied at once. I know good work has been done in that direction over the past few years. I will give the Minister credit where credit is due. I think he is doing his best in that direction. We all agree that a mental hospital is not the proper place for these young children. It is not right to have them living with grown-up people. Due to overcrowding in mental hospitals at the present time, these children have to be put in rooms or cubicles, along with the grown-up people. That is not right.

There should be schools where they would be taught a trade and trained to become useful citizens of the State in after years. It is agreed by all that nothing contributes more to the happiness of the mentally retarded than that they should be suitably occupied. They can be suitably occupied only if we have properly equipped homes or schools where they will have nurses and trained people to give them the proper tuition to fit them to become useful citizens. It is agreed by the medical profession that if they are got into a home in time, they can be trained to become useful citizens afterwards. I should like to see a more dynamic drive without waiting for the findings of two commissions.

In 1948 and 1949, we had in this country a dynamic drive to eradicate the scourge of T.B. among our people. In 1948 and 1949, a patient afflicted with T.B. had to wait six months and as long as two years before he could get into a sanatorium. In the meantime, perhaps, the whole family was affected with the disease. We know that at that time the problem of the eradication of T.B. was tackled in an energetic fashion and greater grants were given to the local authority. The State paid for the full treatment and hospitalisation of the T.B. patients. The full hospital bill was paid while they were in hospital. Money was also paid to their relatives while they were away from work. We know that worry is one of the greatest causes of mental illness.

There are over 20,000 in our mental hospitals at the present time. I think this problem should be tackled in the same way as the T.B. scourge was tackled 12 or 13 years ago. That scourge is almost ended now because of the energetic drive started at that time. It would be a great thing if we could do the same for mental illness and I believe it could be done.

We must, no matter what the cost, provide better amenities for our people who have the misfortune to suffer from mental illness. It would be cheaper on the State, in the long run, because, as I said earlier, modern development has brought down tremendously the average length of stay in a mental hospital. If we are to eradicate this scourge the treatment should be made a national charge. It should be removed from the local authorities, and not for reasons of saving money for the rates —that is not the reason. There is no use in shifting your weight from your left foot to your right foot, if you happen to have corns on both feet. At the same time, the problem should be tackled by the central authority. There would then be equality of treatment, better standards, more uniformity and a more dynamic approach to the whole problem. I believe that that dynamic approach, better treatment and uniformity will come best from one central authority and would lead to a much better approach to the whole problem of mental treatment.

It would give the patients a more confident feeling about their prospects of being cured. I think the time has come when the Minister should make an order that they be treated the same as T.B. patients were treated; that the costs should be borne by the State; and that if they are away for two, three, four or five months, the wife and family will not be fretting about where they are to get the money or how they are to eke out a living. I should like to recommend that, in future, instead of having it done by the local authorities, the central authority should tackle the problem.

I welcome this Bill because it marks a few further steps in the approach that has been apparent in recent years to mental treatment. The treatment is simple, if only the patient would come in time. That is being encouraged by the Minister to a great extent. I know that, in my own county and the neighbouring county, there is a far greater appreciation of the early diagnosis and treatment of mental diseases than heretofore. It is a very important thing that this should be done effectively and properly. It should be brought to the notice of the public that there is nothing to be ashamed of nowadays in mental illness and that, taken early on and diagnosed early enough, it can be treated and permanently cured.

There are only a few sections in the Bill with which I should like to deal. I particularly congratulate the Minister on the section which regularises payments to patients who work in hospitals. There are some patients who do a not inconsiderable amount of work and this possibly would encourage some patients who have no homes and nowhere to go to remain in the hospitals to work. The patients can be of great assistance to the hospitals, particularly where there are large farms. On the other side, the female side, the patients work in the kitchens. I think it is proper that they should be rewarded and I hope that, when the Minister is making these regulations, he will also see to it that proper facilities are provided for the patients to spend their rewards for their own sake and for the sake of their friends. I take it that will be provided for by the staff.

There is another point in regard to old people in the hospitals. Of course there are two sides to the question of old people being put into hospital. This is neither the time nor the place to debate that point, but I think the remedy would be to provide two-roomed groups of buildings, or flats, with nurses to look after the patients and which would be convenient to the county town or the hospital town in each county.

The Minister has gone to great trouble to explain Section 18 both here and in the other House. We all realise it is one of the most important sections in the Bill. It provides for the transfer to the R.M.S. of the authority to endorse the detention order of the patient. The Minister has made us realise it is very important and detailed at great length the many safeguards which exist against a patient being illegally or wrongfully detained. I should like to suggest one further safeguard, that is, that the board of each mental hospital should be entitled at each meeting—which, in the case of the board of which I am a member, is every two months—to a list of patients whose detention order has been endorsed by the R.M.S. We get a list of the county manager's orders dealing with the hospital and, with those orders, there could be a short order by the R.M.S. saying: "I have further detained So-and-So and So-and-So," giving their names and addresses. I say that because members of the board are usually selected from the county council, with a view to having the whole county reasonably represented. There would be very few of the patients who would not be known to some of the local county councillors, and who would not be, in some way, in touch with the friends or relatives. I do not think such a course would cause a great deal of trouble or unnecessary publicity and it would be a further safeguard.

I understand that an appeal can be made to the district committee but it is not the same thing as informing the members of the board. I would ask the Minister to consider that course as an additional safeguard. I feel we should provide every possible safeguard to make sure that there will not be any mistake or even a whisper of a mistake in a matter such as this.

Like other Senators, I should like to express my appreciation of the various improvements envisaged in this measure. It is not a measure that lends itself to any lengthy discussion, but, at the same time, it is one of very great importance. Many things have been referred to in the course of this debate and while I do not want to delay the House unduly, there are a few things to which I should like to refer.

Senator L'Estrange, while he welcomed the Bill generally, had some criticisms to offer. One of his allegations was that mental ill-health was not being dealt with in the same dynamic fashion as, he said, other facets of public health had been dealt with. This question of health generally, is a subject that does not lend itself to any ill-considered measures and while, of course, there is a certain amount to be said in favour of the dynamic approach to these matters, at the same time, I consider that this is a question that requires very careful consideration and the formulation of a very practical and a very well thought out policy. In the past certain facets of public health have had to take second place when this so-called dynamic approach was indulged in. Senator L'Estrange referred to the T.B. drive, and while all credit must be given to what was done in that drive, at the same time, I am afraid it resulted in a certain imbalance with regard to public health generally and that now there is a great deal of leeway to be made up in regard to mental health.

It must be admitted that there is now a much more enlightened approach to mental health and to the measures that should be taken to deal with it. The Minister himself about two years ago summoned the county health authorities to a two-day conference here in Dublin and discussed with them various measures for the improvement of conditions for patients in mental institutions. As far as I am aware, some of the suggestions then made by the Minister are being carried out by the local authorities, but of course it takes time to bring about these desired changes. In any case, we are all agreed that there is a better and more enlightened public approach to the question of mental health and that the stigma that attached to it in bygone days no longer attaches to it. The proof of that more than anything else is the way in which people submit themselves voluntarily now to mental treatment and are discharged when their mental condition becomes improved. That is a very great advance and it should not be minimised.

There has been reference to the conditions of buildings in certain mental institutions, notably at Castlebar. Senator O'Quigley raised the matter, although I do not see how it arises at all on this Bill. He gave us a very full account of the bad condition of the building.

On a point of order, might I point out that he referred to a section on which he was speaking on this matter, and I think that the Cathaoirleach was quite clear that it was perfectly relevant?

On the condition of the buildings?

Yes; Section 33 refers to the inspectors.

In my opinion, Section 33 does not lend itself to a full discussion on the condition of the buildings in a mental institution.

Apparently the Cathaoirleach took a different view.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I take it that if Senator O'Quigley was allowed to refer to it at length, it was in order.

In any case, I am not going to detain the House on this section. What I was getting at was that despite the fact that he said this building was in such a very bad state of repair, earlier he read a medical report to the effect that 80% of the patients in that hospital had been sent home cured, so I wonder can the state of the building be quite so bad if we are given to understand that environment has such an effect on mental patients.

I welcome the Bill. There are certain very important changes envisaged in it. I refer to Section 31 relating to after-care of patients. It is very important that when patients are being discharged from a mental hospital, they are not lost sight of and that the treatment they got in the mental institution will not go for nothing. Another important provision is that which provides for the certification of patients by the family doctor and not exclusively by the dispensary doctor, because, after all, the family doctor is in a better position to assess the condition of the patient under his or her charge.

I should like to add my voice to the general welcome given to this Bill. In my opinion, three matters already mentioned need special emphasis. I entirely agree with Senator O'Quigley in his remarks about the appearance and conditions of at least one of our mental hospitals. It is not an exaggeration to say that in appearance it is gloomy and prison-like, and quite clearly from the report its state of repair is regrettable. I do, however, demur when he rather over-sensationally exaggerates and refers to Russian concentration camps. It does no good to this assembly or to the country in general when that kind of comparison is made. Senator L'Estrange made a similar comparison and spoke of Belsen Camp in this context. I have been in Auschwitz, one of the worst of the concentration camps. I know what the conditions were there and what they stood for and the feelings behind them. Having had that very deep personal emotional experience and having seen one of these camps preserved as a perpetual museum, I deplore any comparison of this kind. These buildings in Castlebar have been neglected and they are not of an ideal design. But let us keep a sense of proportion in criticising. I hope that nothing will be made of this exaggerated comparison.

The fact is that some of these institutions are gloomy and prison-like. The very sight of them when a patient approaches for the first time must, I think, increase his apprehension and melancholy. Something urgently needs to be done, not merely in the way of bringing repairs into effect, but something more. A really drastic plan of rebuilding and redesigning should be set into operation at once.

Here I come to the second point which needs emphasising. There is a risk that the appointment of the commission will delay some matters. I urge the Minister to use all the powers he has at present to consider a drastic campaign for rebuilding these mental hospitals, or at least those which need it. I appeal to him not to wait for the findings of the commission but to go as far as he possibly can at once.

The third point which deserves further mention is a most significant one. It is the fact that mental derangement to a large extent is now curable. The fact that people know that it is to a large extent curable is also, in a sense, making it even more curable.

No longer is there that deep pessimism which I believe one sees in a mentally afflicted person—the feeling that this condition is to stay for life. The comparison drawn between the present state of mental illness in this country and the previous state of illness from tuberculosis is fair. Twenty years ago, the menace of tuberculosis was one of the worst. Now, largely thanks to the efforts of one Minister of State, that menace has more or less been removed. Similarly it is within the power of a present Minister of State to do as much for these mentally afflicted fellow citizens of ours. I urge the Minister to set the gear of his machinery ready for instant action when the report of the commission comes out and meanwhile to use his powers to the full.

These points have been raised before in this debate. Senator Ó Ciosáin rather implied they are not of importance. They are of supreme importance, and I hope the Minister will do all he can to meet them.

I congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. I was very much impressed by the preliminary material he supplied to us and by his careful exposition in his introductory statement on the safeguards so necessary to prevent wrongful detention. I hope the more comprehensive Bill will not long be delayed. I appeal to the Minister to use all his existing powers immediately in this most urgent matter.

Tá mórán den méid a bhí le rá agam ráite ag an Seanadóir Stanford, agus scaoilfidh mé leis. Is sásamh aigne an Bille seo agus go bhfuil sé á phlé againn inniu. Tá súil agam nach mbeidh moill air de bharr ár mbreithniúcháin. Tá eagla orm go mbainfidh an pobal tuiscint nach fíor as cuid de na rudaí adúradh i dtosach na diospóireachta seo. Is dócha go bhfaighidh an drochthuairisc a tugadh tosach áite ins na páipéirí nuachta.

Tá eagla orm go m'fhéidir go raghadh an tuairim amach go bhfuil na tithe gealt nó na tithe meabhair-ghalair uile go léir go holc. Tá contúirt ann go dtuigfear sin mara léitar ins na páipéirí na tuairimí eile a tugadh anseo. Ní hionann iad go léir, dar ndóigh. Tá difríocht mhór idir na tithe meabhair-ghalair tríd an tír. Tá fhios agam féin go bhfuil cuid díobh go h-an-mhaith agus go bhfuil toradh maith ar an obair atá ar siúl iontu. Ba mhaith liom go dtuigfí sin agus nach mbeadh cáineadh den saghas a chualamar i leith institiúide amháin le lua ina dtaobh go léir—faoin droch-chóir ins na tithe sin, droch-fhoirgniú agus an dochar sláinte agus leighis—de bharr na ndroch-choinníolacha sin iontu. Níl siad go léir go holc agus tá fhios againn go maith go bhfuil cuid díobh go rí-mhaith agus go bhfuil an riarachán agus an freastal ar fheabhas iontu.

Tá mórán á dhéanamh againn chun leigheas a dhéanamh ar an ngalar sin. Tá slite ann anois chun an t-olc a laghdú agus leigheas a dhéanamh ar dhaoine agus iad a ligint amach ins an tsaol arís. Ach ag déanamh comparáide idir figiúirí a bhí ann 20 bliain ó shin agus figiúirí an lae inniu, is brónach domsa a thuiscint go bhfuil líon na ndaoine ins na tithe sin ag dul i méid. Sílim gur fíor é. Ach ní chreidimse go bhfuil pobal na hÉireann ag dul dá meabhair níos mó ná mar ba ghnáthach. Tá líon na ndaoine in Éirinn ag dul i laghad. Tá leighis á fháil anois do mhórán ghné den ghalar sin. Ach tá líon na ndaoine insna hinstitiúidí meabhar-ghalair ag dul go mór in airde, de réir figiúirí a bhíonn le léamh againn. Is eagal liom go bhfuil daoine á gcur in áiteanna mar sin anois nach cóir a chur iontu.

Do tagríodh anseo don fhaillí ag daoine óga ar an dualgas atá orthu i leith a n-aithreacha agus a máithreacha nuair a théann said in aois. Ní theastaíonn uaim mórán a rá ina thaobh sin. Is eagal liom, agus is cúis náire dhom é, go bhfuil baol ann go bhfuil fírinne i gcuid den chaint sin. Sé an chúis dar liom go bhfuil cuid de fíor ná nach bhfuil na daoine óga ins na tithe chun aire a thabhairt do na daoine aosta—tá said bailithe leo as an tír. Sílim gurb shin ceann de na cúiseanna atá leis an ngearán go bhfuil daoine aosta ins na hinstitiúidí sin nach cóir a bheith iontu, agus go mba chóir iad a bheith ag a mbaile féin nó fós, b'fhéidir, go mba chóir go mbéidís ins na Teaghlaigh Contae. Ach is cuimhin liom scéal, agus léireoidh sé beagáinín d'aigne cuid den phobal sa chúrsa seo. Do bhí daoine ag argóint ar an bpointe—ag argóint ar cad ba chiall le seandaoine a chur sa Teaghlach Contae nuair áta an aire agus an chóir níos fearr ins na tithe galar intinne? Sílim gurb shin cuid eile den chúis go bhfuil iomad seandaoine ins na tithe meabhar-ghalair. Is eol dom ná cuirtear éinne sna tithe meabhair-ghalar gan teastas go bhfuil an mheabhair lochtach aige. Tá dó nó trí slite chun san a thomhas. B'fhéidir nár mhiste teaghlach a bheith ann do dhaoine atá aosta agus lag agus go bhfuil aiteas beag nádúrtha orthu le haois agus nár cheart iad a chur i dtithe do dhaoine a bhfuil a meabhair caillte ar fad acu. Ní cóir "teaghlach bocht" a bheith mar ainm againn ar a leithéid de áit anois do dhaoine dearóile aosta.

Sin iad na rudaí atá im aigne-se ach ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh don chéad rud a bhí agam—gur truagh dá dtéadh sé amach ón gcaint so agus ón díospóireacht a rinneadh anso go bhfuilimid ag cáineadh na nospidéil meabhair ghalair go léir ón gcáineadh a deineadh ar aon cheann amháin.

I should like to say a few words of congratulation to the Minister for bringing in this measure and to thank him for making it so clear in his opening statement and in his supplied manuscript. This matter of mental illness is something in respect of which there is a more enlightened approach nowadays. It is unfortunate that in the past it was treated as almost incurable and as a state which warranted detention for ever and ever. The results of that approach were the terrible institutions then erected and which we unfortunately have inherited.

I would agree with Senator Stanford that, within the financial capacity of the country and the capacity of our Minister to secure the necessary funds, it would be better, where these buildings are so gloomy, that they should be ignored and new ones erected. Apart from mental illness, it is agreed nowadays that colour, light and pleasant surroundings contribute to better working. It is also accepted by psychiatrists that colourful surroundings, proper treatment and happy conditions of living help in curing mental illness. Hearing about this lamentable condition of the hospital in the west of Ireland, even allowing for exaggerations, it is possibly true to say or think that it might be cheaper to erect a new building. Perhaps, I am not wise economically in suggesting this. I would say that all these institutions have always been erected on too vast a scale, and smaller institutions would be far more manageable and would take away altogether from the prison-like appearance which they present to people as they approach them. Even from the point of view of the management of these institutions, I think they should not be too large.

In no conditions do I consider that young people should be put into an ordinary mental hospital with adults. That seems to me to be so reactionary and so behind the times as to be deplorable. All these suggestions we so glibly make here cost a vast amount of money, but we are entitled to look for perfection, even if we do not attain it. One of the things I would be most strong against is that children and young persons should ever be put into ordinary mental hospitals. In many cases in the country, religious Orders and very worthwhile civic-minded people have started institutions and schemes for dealing with mentally retarded children.

In Cork, we are very fortunate in having a very fine institution for mentally handicapped boys run by a religious Order. Some of us who visit that place see the wonderful results that accrue from proper training in proper surroundings, provided by trained personnel dedicated to their work. It seems to be a very significant and important part of the work of dealing with mentally affected people that the persons dealing with them should be dedicated to their work.

Groups of civic-minded people have started now in the case of young children who are mentally deficient and retarded. We have four schools in the city of Cork dealing with these children. Granted, they are only small institutions, but they are very significant and doing excellent work. It occurs to me that perhaps there is work for all of us to do without calling out, as we do so loudly to Governments, all the time. In the case of the schools which have been started in Cork—I understand there are others in Dublin—these were started through the organisation of parents whose children were so affected. They have a sincere and personal interest in making this a success, so perhaps there is work for many other people to do there.

On the question of the large numbers of old people in mental hospitals, I think that we, as a nation, must hang our heads in shame in this regard. We know there are problems and that often young married people without any domestic help in the home find it difficult to look after ageing parents. In the past, when there was no such thing as domestic help and everybody had to do all their own work, it was never considered right or respectable to put your parents in an institution. I am afraid this is not peculiar to people in the lower income group or the middle income group. The parents of very well-off people are considered to be—if I might use the words—a great nuisance and a burden and "we do not know what to do with them." In many cases, even people who can afford to pay an economic amount per week for themselves have no place to go.

That is a problem that might be dealt with either by people who could invest in large houses or, again, it appears to be work for very dedicated people, but these large numbers of senile men and women in mental institutions must add greatly, it seems to me, to our statistics of mental diseases, and in fact, to the world, we must look more mentally affected than we really are. I think that further exhortation to people who are contemplating putting their parents into these institutions should go out all the time.

This question of getting rid of parents or troublesome old relations has even become a matter of getting them into medical hospitals. One way or another, they get them into acute hospitals and we have to our knowledge, patients in acute hospitals and medical hospitals one, two and three years. There seems to be no machinery for getting them out and putting them into some place more suitable for them. They are, in fact, holding up beds which should be available for acute cases. All along in the medical world, this problem of the aged is occurring.

Outside people should take more interest in looking after the mentally sick in institutions. I should like specially to praise the work of the Irish Countrywomen's Association which, where there is a mental hospital in its area, looks after the patients. The women take it in turn on certain days to visit certain mental cases.

They become friendly with these people and these poor sick people look forward to their visits. I know that is being done extremely well in Cork. I think it is splendid work and that these people who do it should be praised for it.

It seems to me, whether they are related or just citizens or people we know, that, when once they go into the mental hospitals, we feel we have done our duty. We have just locked them up, but with a new approach and with the efforts of the Minister and his Department to get the public to realise that there is no longer a stigma on being mentally ill and with more people looking for treatment and being cured, perhaps, as is now the case with some of the T.B. hospitals, the mental hospitals might be regarded as almost redundant. Let us hope that that day will be soon. In the meantime, I hope that the Minister will ensure that where he has to have a mental hospital, it will be as cheerful and as bright and as helpful to the mentally sick as possible. I congratulate the Minister on this measure and thank him again for his explanatory speech.

I should like to add a few words in support of the Bill and in congratulation of the Minister. I was not able to be here when he made his opening remarks but I carefully read what he said in the Dáil. I was particularly impressed by the evidence of marked attention and concern on the part of the Minister for this whole problem. He made it clear that it is a Bill of many details for the purpose of clearing up a number of administrative points. I do not think he made excessive claims for what the Bill sets out to do, but I think we have all recognised that although it is a Bill of detail, these details are intelligent details dealt with in a practical and useful way. The sum total of a number of detailed solutions for some of the minor problems ought to produce quite a major effect upon the conditions obtaining at present.

The sort of detail I have in mind, for instance, is the decision in Section 39 to change the title of the Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum and remove the very concept of the "criminal lunatic" and simply call the asylum the Central Mental Hospital. That is imaginative. It is the sort of thing many people have said should have been done before. The very notion of a person being of unsound mind and yet branded as criminal is antipathetic to all of us. It is a good thing to see the Bill paying attention to what some might say is a mere detail but in fact is of some moment.

In Section 3, I was pleased to see that the question of payment to patients for work done is being dealt with. The explanatory memorandum says that this type of payment is at present being given by several institutions and that the purpose is to "regularise such payments". I am not quite satisfied that that is enough. I feel that perhaps some kind of ministerial regulation or ministerial pressure might be brought to bear upon an institution to pay more attention to the psychological effect on the patient of not merely being enabled to work as part of occupational therapy but of being paid for it. I believe firmly that to many patients who are capable of doing useful work the actual money in the hand is most useful, and is part of the cure, you might say. They do not then feel themselves to be thrown on the scrap-heap, to be useless, and I would have sympathy, and I think the Minister would, too, with institutions which are prepared to pay at a reasonably generous rate. I do not believe there is any danger in clashing with the trade unions and that sort of thing, but payments if possible should be something more than a mere nominal payment in order to give patients who are capable of doing useful work the feeling that the usefulness of that work is being recognised in terms of money payments.

The Minister has told us that the problem is very big and he mentioned a figure of, I think, 19,000 patients. We recognise that potentially the figure might be even bigger. It is a very big problem in this country and I sympathise with Senator Mrs. Dowdall when she says that possibly smaller units might be useful in dealling with the problem. One would also like to see the greater use of out-patient facilities, without the patients who attend them being branded as people attending mental out-patients' departments. It is very important to make it easy for people who could get help in a psychiatric out-patients' department to go there, and to go there without any stigma attaching to their attendance. I am sure the Minister is aware of that point, and that it is the sort of thing he would encourage as far as he has the power to do so.

I recognise, and I am sure the Minister is aware, that as with so many other things which require change, improvement or extension, the key is money. You have got to spend money and surely it is money well spent that we can say a big proportion of the citizens who at present suffer from mental disturbances of one kind or another, can now be cured rapidly. Even from the long-term point of view it could be shown to be economically sound to have money spent on a larger scale for the purpose of producing a cure more rapidly. Mental disturbance is an upset, a disease or a condition, which responds very well if taken in time, if it is possible to take it in time, and which responds very badly if there is a big time lag between the onset and the beginning of the cure. It is true that a good deal of psychiatric therapy in the present state of medical knowledge requires a lot of time, and time is money in that respect also. I feel like pressing the Minister to press his colleague the Minister for Finance to make greater funds available for the purpose of implementing more imaginative plans, plans which will I have no doubt, emerge from the findings of the commission which the Minister has wisely decided to set up.

The question of segregation is also linked up with money. You have got to have space in order to segregate patients who suffer from different degrees of mental upset. Segregation is absolutely essential, and any one of us would be greatly distressed by being put in constant close proximity with people who had lost a greater amount of control than we have. How much more then do persons with a minimal amount of disorder suffer by being in proximity to persons suffering from graver mental distress?

I sympathise with Senator Mrs. Dowdall when she says that smaller units might be effective but I should like to make the point that the size of an institution does not necessarily mean the sort of personal overcrowding. I had occasion to visit a very big mental hospital in Dumfries in Scotland, the Crichton Royal Hospital. It is an enormous place with 1,000 patients, but it is built on 1,000 acres of land. The buildings are very widely scattered, the surroundings are beautiful, and the parks and lands are also beautiful. Even with 1,000 patients, segregation is possible and is almost absolute. There are no tall walls or railings, and the whole place is free of access and patients can actually come and go very freely, owing to the intelligent use of space and trees, and fields and terrain. It is also apparent there that they use as an instrument of cure and segregation to some extent the basic approach of trust. Trusting the patients, much as in the case of prisoners too, is a very great element in effecting rehabilitation. The point I am making is that you can have even big institutions which nevertheless, by the intelligent use of space, can bring about in practice a large measure of the necessary segregation. The whole problem requires a lot more money, however, and a far more comprehensive plan than is contained in this Bill. The Minister is the first to recognise that.

I would like to say this also—the point was touched upon indirectly by Senator Mrs. Dowdall—that we have a very high lunacy rate in this country. The figures may or may not be affected by senile conditions in some of the inmates in these mental hospitals, but on the statistics as we calculate them we have one of the highest lunacy rates in Western Europe. We tend sometimes to get very smug about other countries where the divorce rate or the suicide rate is high, but we ought to bear in mind with some humility this black mark upon our society, and go to the root causes and try to reduce this figure by very active means and by really tackling the problem.

I have been impressed by the spirit underlying this Bill, and underlying the white paper and the draft handbook circulated to us, and by the whole tone of the Minister's approach to the matter both in his speech to the Dáil and here. All of these show that the Minister and his officials are actively concerned to do something about this. We all know that this Bill is not enough, that it is largely a Bill of administrative improvements. We welcome it as such, and we also welcome the decision to have the matter gone into considerably more deeply by a Commission. I would like to conclude by expressing the hope, therefore, that we shall see the Minister before us again soon, after a report from this Commission, and that he will introduce into the House a more active and imaginative Bill, representing an all-out attack on this distressing and, in Ireland, all too prevalent problem.

I should like to say how much I appreciate the manner in which this Bill has been debated in the House. I would like to repeat what I said at the outset, that this Bill is not intended to provide for a major reform of the mental health service, but it is a Bill which will be beneficial in so far as it will make procedure simpler and rather more effective from the point of view of the patient.

There are not many things that I need really deal with. Senator O'Quigley said that he was rather concerned at the manner in which older people were being consigned to mental institutions. He thought that there was a tendency to detain feeble-minded people in mental institutions and that there should be a check upon their too ready incarceration. The position is that within the limits of our resources we have done as much as we possibly can to ensure that senile feeble-minded old people will not find themselves confined in institutions. Since I became Minister, for instance, the Crooksling Sanatorium became available and now it is a special psychiatric unit for old persons. Part of St. Mary's Hospital in the Phoenix Park has become available to us and is being used for the same purpose. Heatherside Sanatorium at Buttevant in County Cork is used for the same class of patient as in Crooksling, but for Cork patients only. The same is true of St. Patrick's Hospital, Waterford, and the latest example is Shean Sanatorium in Laois. Senator L'Estrange will know a little about that and will realise that it was not very easy to persuade the people of Laois to permit me to close that sanatorium and to divert it to a much more useful purpose. Wherever we can provide separate accommodation for senile feeble-minded old people we are doing that.

The Senator also referred to the fact that we are making a change in the title of the institution at Dundrum, and wondered what would happen to a patient who while awaiting trial is detained there as a mental patient and in course of time is cured. I am only concerned with such a patient as Minister for Health. My job is to see if he can be cured. If he is cured then he is at the disposal of the Minister for Justice, and under a statute passed in 1821 that Minister can take such steps as may seem to him to be appropriate to deal with that case.

Senator O'Quigley rather unnecessarily harrowed the Seanad by the description of the conditions which prevailed in the Mental Hospital in Mayo. If by quoting from the architect's report at length he implied that in some way or another the present Minister for Health was responsible for the conditions which the architect found there I should like to inform him of this fact, that it is due to my insistence that we should have architectural reports on these hospitals, and that the strictures which have from time to time been made by the Inspector of Mental Hospitals on the conditions he found should be taken seriously and acted upon, that that report was prepared. It is also due to myself and my Department to say that we have informed the authorities in the mental hospitals throughout the country that provided they are prepared to undertake the necessary expenditure upon repairs I am prepared to support them out of funds at my disposal to the extent of £500,000, and had it not been for that we would not have had the report from this architect from which Senator O'Quigley has quoted at length.

I think, however, we should not, by painting too blackly the conditions in some of these institutions, deter people from presenting themselves for admission as patients. We are told about the gloomy buildings. They are gloomy. Most of these institutions have been built for over a century. If their architectural design does not appeal, it just happens to be the mental approach of the particular period to the conditions with which they were supposed to deal. We are doing a very great deal to improve the conditions. Senator Ó Ciosáin referred to the fact that many of the changes to which Senator L'Estrange referred have taken place within the past two or three years. I think I am entitled to claim a great deal of credit for them.

I was disturbed by many reports I was receiving from the Inspector of Mental Hospitals. I arranged a symposium in my Department, at the end of 1958 or the beginning of 1959, at which I had all the senior members of the staffs of these hospitals who could attend. I read for them a very long paper in which I indicated the things I thought they should do to improve the amenities of these institutions, to brighten them up, to advance towards their better administration and, I think, a consequent better therapeutic care of the patients. I say that merely to rebut the suggestion, I think particularly by Senator L'Estrange, that we have been negligent in attending to this problem.

The commission I have set up is not intended to be a gimmick. I have gone to very great care in trying to select adequate personnel for it. In justification of the step I have taken I cannot do better than read what I said in relation to a similar suggestion on the Second Stage of the debate on this Bill in Dáil Éireann. Winding up the debate, I said:

We have not had an exhaustive investigation of what should be done, and what can be done in that field in this country in the light of modern knowledge. In fact, I doubt if we have had in the last century any serious investigation of the problem at all. There is a tendency for traditional procedures to become inbred. And I should like that outside minds should combine with such professional ability as we may have at our disposal to have a fresh look at what we have been doing here over the years and what we are now trying to do. The fact that we are asking these new minds to come in does not mean at all, as was suggested by my predecessor, Deputy Thomas O'Higgins, and to some extent re-echoed by the Leader of the Labour Party, that we are going to stand still. We are going to carry out the programme which we have mapped out, as I said, to the extent that our resources will permit. At the same time, we intend to bring over people to have a look at what we are doing and to give us the benefit of their knowledge and experience. There will be, I am sure, an exchange of views between ourselves and these others which will be advantageous not only to us and to them but to the general field of psychiatric medicine as a whole.

It is with the idea of getting fresh minds to look at our problems here, of getting the best of those who will volunteer to help us and come and look at our problems that this commission has been set up. It has not been set up as an excuse for deferring action. It has been set up to enable us to see how best we should proceed.

In the meantime, we have quite a lot to do which we ourselves recognise as essential. We have to put the buildings in repair; we have to extend our out-patient services; we have to provide for the after-care of those who are discharged from mental hospitals. A great deal of this we can do but we want to have some fresh examination of the treatments and procedures we are following. We want to have a look at the legislation which exists here to see if, perhaps, it is delaying the reception and proper discharge of patients. For that reason, I propose to set up this commission.

Senator O'Quigley said he thought a great deal more should be done to make the public aware that there are not good grounds for the stigma which formerly attached to mental illness. Every possible step in that regard is being taken. Last year, most mental hospitals had an open day. Prominent people were invited to inspect the hospitals and to see what was being done. They were told what the doctors in charge were endeavouring to do. They saw how the patients were being treated, many of whom were walking around quite freely as in the case of the home Senator Sheehy Skeffington saw at Dumfries.

I have spoken on a number of occasions to appropriate audiences, people who I thought would be able to influence public opinion as to the hopes which mentally ill people might now foster and the hopes which in many cases would be fulfilled. Everybody knows there is a limit to the receptivity of the public in these matters. I am glad to say I do not think that limit has been reached. I am glad to say that in many cases we have striking proof that persons are becoming more and more aware that if they regard mental illness in the same way as they regard any physical malady or physical disability, they have great hopes of a cure. The proof of that is even the mere fact that the number of receptions in our mental hospitals is very much higher now. I think it is 100 per cent. higher. It was 100 per cent. higher in 1959 than in 1950. In 1950, the number of patients received was 5,877. In 1959, the receptions numbered 11,742—more than double the 1950 figure. It did not mean that these 11,000 stayed there. As a matter of fact, the gratifying and reassuring thing is the greatly increased turnover in the individuals who enter mental hospitals as patients.

Figures for the outdoor clinics are even more remarkable. The earliest I have go back to 1957. In 1957, the number of patients attending clinics was 3,491. In 1958, it rose to 4,732. In 1959, it was 5,442. The increase in the number of attendances at these clinics was equally gratifying. In 1957, they numbered 8,735; in 1958, they numbered 10,190; and in 1959, they numbered 14,264. That is a very solid indication that the amount of propaganda that has gone on is making people more and more aware of how much suffering and hardship they may escape, if they only have the good sense and sufficient insight to avail of the services which exist for the treatment of mental illness.

Senator Cole raised the question of whether I could not afford mental hospital patients a further safeguard in that the board of a mental institution might be furnished with a list of patients whose detention order had been endorsed by the medical superintendent. I think I may be perhaps able to deal with that by regulation. I will look into it as sympathetically as possible, but I should like to draw the Senator's attention to the fact that it is not just as simple a matter as it might appear to the ordinary individual, because, under Section 225 of the existing Mental Treatment Act of 1945, the resident medical superin-tendendent of a district mental hospital is required to make available from time to time to the mental hospital authority case books showing the mental condition of persons detained in the hospital. Such books shall be so made available that they will show the condition of each person so detained at least once a year.

I happened to be, with Dr. Ward, responsible for the Act of 1945. Section 225 has been objected to by an association with whom I am at the moment at variance. The Irish Medical Association have objected to the section as constituting a breach of medical secrecy and while I have promised to consider the suggestion made by Senator Cole, he will of course realise that where the question of medical secrecy is concerned, he is almost asking me to invade the holy of holies and that I must walk very warily in those circumstances.

There is another matter to which I think I should refer, not that it really affects me personally but it does affect a colleague with whom I once worked in very close harmony and association: the remarks made by Senator L'Estrange and by Senator Stanford which implied that the whole of the tuberculosis problem had been overcome by "a person with dynamic drive". As we are dealing here today largely with the Mental Treatment Act of 1945, it is only fair to say that the then Parliamentary Secretary, Dr. Ward, was responsible not only for this Act of 1945 but also for the Tuberculosis (Establishment of Sanatoria) Act, of 1945. All the regulations were made under that Act whereby a person who required treatment for tuberculosis could go into a sanatorium and could be secure there and that he should get an allowance for himself and his family to enable him to undergo that prolonged treatment with an easier mind. It was largely due to the advice, guidance and persuasion of Dr. Ward that I was able to persuade the Government to separate the whole question of health from that of local government and to set up a separate Department of Health. I think that was a considerable achievement but it was an achievement which had to be fought for. The establishment of the Department of Health was subjected to some opposition both in this House and in Dáil Éireann but if it had not been for the establishment of that Department, the other things then planned could not have taken place. The sanatoria which were built almost immediately afterwards were all planned as a result of the 1945 Act. These plans were fully developed and ready to be put in operation in 1948 and not merely that but a fund of eight million pounds had been accumulated which enabled the actual construction of these sanatoria to be proceeded with with great expedition.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is rather a long disquisition on the basis of a phrase by Senator Sheehy Skeffington, for, to be stictly accurate, there was no reference to this by Senator L'Estrange.

Yes, Senator L'Estrange said something about "dynamic drive".

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

With due respect, Senator L'Estrange did not refer to a particular Minister.

I just want to put these things on record because I know many Senators to whom all this is new and I think, in justification of the debt which I owe to the then Parliamentary Secretary for the many things which he persuaded me to take responsibility for asking the Dáil to do, all this should be put on record for members of this House at least so that a fair share of credit should go where credit is due.

The whole tempo changed under Dr. Noel Browne.

Leave it now.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Strictly, this is irrelevant. Having allowed the Minister to make the bulk of his statement, I do not think I shall allow anyone else.

Very good; I am not claiming all the credit.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 22nd March.
Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.
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