Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Jan 1962

Vol. 55 No. 2

Election of Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Professor Hayes

Tairgim:

Go dtoghfar an Seanadóir Pádraig Mac Loingsigh mar Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil an Seanadóir Mac Loingsigh oiriúnach i ngach aon sórt sli chun obair na Cathaoirleach a dhéanamh. Tá an tabhairt suas air, an taithighe aige, an t-eolas agus an oiliúint is gá chun na hoibre seo. I dteannta an méid sin is léir go bhfuil aige na tréithe aigne a chuirfeadh ar a chumas na dualgaisí a comhlíonadh mar a deineadh riamh anseo iad. D'fhoghluim sé agus rinne sé staidéir ar an Laidin agus ar an nGréigís tré Gaeilge i gColáiste na hOllscoile i nGaillimh. Deirtear go gcuiduigheann sé sin go mór chun soléireacht, cruinneas agus tuiscint a thabhairt do dhuine i dtaobh brí focal agus sin nídh a theastíonn go géar ón gCathaoirleach nó ón Leas-Chathaoirleach. Geobhaidh an Seanadóir Mac Loingsigh an tuiscint atá aige ar na neithe sin go léir a chur ag obair ar aon oráid nó tairiscint a dhéanfaí ins an tSeanaid pé acu i mBéarla nó i nGaeilge an chainnt. Tá me deimhneach de go dtabhairfeadh sé cothrom na Féinne do gach aoinne.

Senator Lindsay has the education, the experience, the knowledge and the training necessary for a Senator who goes into the Chair in this House. Apart from training and experience he has the qualities of mind which would enable him to do the work as it should be done. He has done a course in Latin and Greek through the medium of Irish in University College, Galway, including a post-graduate degree. That kind of course helps to give clarity, accuracy and understanding on the precise meaning of words. Such an understanding and such a clarity are essential qualifications for the Chair. I think the Senator has the qualifications, therefore, which would enable him thoroughly to understand and to appreciate points that might be made to him whether in Irish or in English during a discussion here. He has had several years' experience in Dáil Éireann, including a period as a Minister. The procedure and practice in the Dáil are identical with ours with the single important difference that we have no financial powers.

Furthermore, Senator Lindsay has some experience as a teacher which I think Senators will agree is very valuable and is very relevant to the position here. He is a member of the Bar, a Senior Counsel, skilled in examining and in interpreting legal documents. The Leas-Chathaoirleach is Chairman of the Committee on Private Bills and legal experience would be of very great use in that position. I am sure that if the Senator were elected he would be, as has been the practice here, at times indulgent but firm when the occasion arises and always fair. I am confident he would uphold the good traditions which have been created in this House by the Chair. Accordingly, I move that Senator Patrick J. Lindsay be elected as Chairman.

Mr. McGuire

I am satisfied that in Senator Lindsay we shall have a very worthy Leas-Chathaoirleach. I therefore have much pleasure in seconding the motion proposed by Senator Hayes.

Dominic Ó Murchadha

Ba mhaith liom an Seanadóir Inion Máire Nic Dháibhidh a mholadh mar Leas-Chathaoirleach an tSeanaid. Breis agus aondéag bliain ó shoin, i mí Meitheamh, 1950, do toghadh i mar ball de'n tSeanaid do'n chéad uair. Tá eolas math againn, a obair leithi annseo ar fud na blianta ón am sin, ar na cáiliochtai thar barr atá aici. Tá sí tuisceannach agus foidhneach agus in a dteannta san, tá eolas agus taithí aice ar churamaí an tSeanaid.

Tá méadú ar líon na dteachta ón Lucht Oibre de bharr an toghacháin. Lucht neamh-spleadhach iad, gan ceangail le haon lucht eile agus anois iarraimid tacaíocht ó baill an tSeanaid don moladh seo.

I wish to propose Senator Miss Davidson as Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad. Senator Miss Davidson was first elected to the Seanad in June, 1950, and those of us who have worked with her in this House in the intervening years will be aware of her admirable qualities. I feel that her patience and understanding, together with her knowledge of the working of the Seanad, make her an admirable choice as Leas-Chathaoirleach. The Labour trade union group in this House has increased its representation as a result of the recent election. It is separate and distinct from other groups. It asks for the support of Miss Davidson's nomination as Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Mr. Crowley

I second the motion proposed by Senator Murphy. In doing so, I should like to endorse what he has said of our candidate. Senator Miss Davidson, as Senator Murphy rightly pointed out, was first elected to this House in June, 1950. Over the intervening period, I think those of us who have worked with her as members of the House will all agree she has filled the office of Senator with a dignity and ability which nobody could possibly doubt. I am perfectly satisfied that she is quite capable of upholding all the traditions of this House. I believe she is very fully equipped intellectually and from her long and able service to the House and her practical experience in many capacities of the operation of the work of the House to discharge the duties of the office of Leas-Chathaoirleach to the complete satisfaction of everybody on both sides of the House.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

The position of Leas-Chathaoirleach is traditionally filled by a member of the Opposition. On former occasions, there was only one candidate who was elected unanimously. This time, there are two. We feel that the choice should be made by the Senators on the other side of the House and we have, therefore, decided to leave it to them.

Dónall Ó Conalláin

Tá cáilíocht amhain, thar aon cheann eile, atá ríthabhachtach ins an toghacháin seo, sé sin, cumas an Leas-Chathaoirleach an obair a dhéanamh tré Gaeilge. Chualamar, i gcás an Seanadóir Mac Loingsigh, go bhfuil Gaeilge aige ach ní duírt na daoine a mhol an Seanadóir Iníon Níc Dhaibhidh focail faoi'n chálaíocht sin a bheith aici. Is deacair é do dhuine cosúil liomsa, a chuireann an méid sin tabhacht in eolas na teangain le h-aghaidh post mar seo, a aigne a shochrú ar cad is ceart a dhéanamh ach, mara gcloisimid níos mó ó na daoine a mhol an tSeanadóir Nic Dhaibhidh, tá faitchios orm go gcaithfimid í a fhágáil as an aireamh i dtaobh an toghacháin seo.

Mr. McAuliffe

It is a rather extraordinary situation that the majority of this House should make a decision here today not to take part in a matter of such great importance. I would be surprised if the Taoiseach nominated eleven people to come in here and not to vote on an issue such as this. I am quite sure that, among the eleven he nominated, there are two industrious ladies who, if they were not tied up in a political knot, as one might call it, here today, would be glad to cast their votes for another lady who is going forward for the position of Leas-Chathaoirleach.

I am quite certain that none of those who roamed through the various counties interviewing councillors and asking for votes during the Seanad election would tell any of the people whom they asked for votes that they would abstain in such an important matter as this.

It is not so long ago since you, a Chathaoirligh, were elected to the Chair and said what a great honour you considered it was to be elected to the Chair. I remember that you thanked the Senators from your heart for the great honour they had bestowed upon you. Here today the majority of this House refuse to cast a vote to bestow the next greatest honour that we could bestow on anyone in this House. It is for that reason that I maintain that Senators should not be prevented from voting on such an important issue. I also think that we are creating a precedent, that a minority of this House will vote on such a major issue as the appointment of Leas-Chathaoirleach.

A Senator raised a point about Irish. I am quite certain that if Senator Miss Davidson is elected Leas-Chathaoirleach she will find no difficulty as regard the amount of Irish she will have to deal with in the Chair. The Party that puts the great importance on Irish here today, when a Senator of their own, who had no Irish, was elected Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, advanced every argument on that occasion as to why Irish was not so important. That is not so long ago. It is wonderful how they can show today that Irish is important and even say that it is an absolute necessity that the Leas-Chathaoirleach should have a fluent knowledge of Irish.

I would ask the people on the other side of the House who have made this decision not to vote here today to unloose that knot and to give Senators an opportunity to cast their votes on this very important matter.

Professor Stanford

I should like to support the last speaker very strongly in this matter. It is deplorable that the majority of the House should abstain from voting on such an important question as this. Neutralism of this kind, whether in national or international politics, is most regrettable. It will be open to some members of the House in future almost to say "This is not our Leas-Chathaoirleach. We had nothing to do with the election". I do think it is a sign of pusillanimity on the part of the majority Party in this country not to take sides on this issue.

All of us had the courtesy and many of us the pleasure to vote for the present Chairman, or against him. At least, we expressed our opinions. Now we are going to have the position where, in a very important decision, half of the House will be immobile, neutral, silent. I regard that as a most regrettable decision, and I do hope it will not set a precedent. I think the last speaker was very well justified in raising that point. As he says, a majority of a minority will now elect the Leas-Cathaoirleach and, whatever the decision is, that decision will be lacking in authority on that account. The members of the majority Party here must face the responsibility for that most regrettable decision.

I wish to add another stricture to what the last Senator has said. It is regrettable that in the second meeting of this House Senator Mullins should talk about "the other side of the House" and "the Opposition". Now, whether he always takes it for granted or not that the majority of this House is devoted to purely political Party reasons and not to the vocational ideals which they are supposed to uphold, whether he believes that or not, let him please remember and let all members of the House remember that there are some Independents in this House who refuse to be classified as "this side" or "that side" of the House except in a purely geographical context. I object to the Leader of the House for introducing this partisanship at such an early stage and for introducing it in connection with a policy of regrettable neutralism.

What we have to decide now is who will be the best Leas-Chathaoirleach of the House, the most efficient, the most fair and the most experienced. That alone should be before our minds. It will certainly, I hope, be the only thing before the minds of the Independents, who may decide this issue; and I appeal to them at least, not to "this side of the House" or to "that side of the House", but to those of independent mind that they keep only these three criteria in view—fairness, efficiency, experience. These certainly are the criteria by which I personally intend to vote.

Professor Quinlan

I should like to support the two previous speakers. It is regrettable that the Leader of the House should, at the very start of this session, have continued to divide Senators into groups because we all like to believe that the Seanad is, in some sense or other, a vocational body. In fact, most of the members of this House have been endorsed by certain vocational groups and their political affiliations were only secondary in the consideration of their suitability to represent those vocational groups. Consequently, I appeal to those who represent vocational groups here to act as those vocational groups would like them to act, to take their stand on this issue for whichever candidate they consider best suited to discharge the duties of the Chair. I hope this session will be marked by a far greater effort by vocational groups, first of all, to brief the Senators who represent them here so that the interests of the vocational groups are kept uppermost in our discussions——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is now going outside the scope of the motion before the House.

Professor Quinlan

I am criticising the decision of the majority of the House not to take part in this vote and surely I can give my reasons for that criticism. The reason is primarily that I consider that such a decision is an affront to vocationalism and is an insult to those vocational bodies who shelved their own political leanings in one way or another and rallied behind the candidates of their choice in order to get them here. Senators were not sent here to stand under the whip on this very first issue that has come before us.

Mrs. Connolly O'Brien

I came here today with the intention of casting my vote for Senator Miss Davidson out of the esteem and regard I have for her and my belief in her ability as an administrator and the knowledge she has derived, through the years, of political matters. It is only right that I should remind people here present that we in Ireland had the great honour to have had equal suffrage granted in the Proclamation of our Republic. We have had the great honour of electing the first woman M.P.; of having the first woman Cabinet Minister, of having the first woman ambassador, not only in this country but in the world. Russia, before us, had a legation representative but not an ambassador as we have. I think it only fair that, having regard to the ability and the knowledge of Senator Miss Davidson, we should now add to all those honours the honour of electing the first woman Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Professor Stanford

Does the Senator intend to vote on the matter?

Mrs. Connolly O'Brien

Yes, certainly.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

That shows how nonsensical Senator Stanford's statement was.

Mr. Desmond

I am rather surprised that we should have a decision by the majority Party in the House not to take any interest in the matter of who will be elected here today as Leas-Chathaoirleach. I do not think, as the majority Party, they will be quite happy in that——

An Cathaoirleach

I wish to remind the Senator that is not the issue before the House. This debate has been widened far beyond the proper limit.

Mr. Desmond

I am sorry if I have slightly departed from the subject matter but the debate appears to be in reference to the fact that the largest Party in the House have no interest in the decision that will be made as to who will sit in the chair when you, Sir, vacate it. That appears to be the issue before us and notice has been taken of that and surprise is expressed that the majority Party should have no interest in who on this side of the House will be elected. That would appear to convey that the minority side of the House will make the decision. I think that should be examined again because whoever is elected should, in my opinion, have the majority support of the House.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

And will so have.

Mr. Desmond

If somebody sits silent and has no interest, nobody knows what is in his mind. That does not seem to be the best leadership, or the best example to other bodies in a matter of this kind. I think the majority Party should re-examine their decision.

Professor Stanford

Will the Chair accept a motion that the House adjourn for five minutes to allow the majority Party to reconsider their decision?

An Cathaoirleach

I intend to put the motion.

Question put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 19; Níl, 7.

Tá

• Brosnahan, Seán.
• Butler, John.
• Carton, Victor.
• Dooge, James C.I.
• Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
• Hayes, Michael.
• Jessop, W.J.E.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• McDonald, Charles.
• McGuire, Edward A.
• Mannion, John.
• O'Brien, George.
• Ó Conalláin, Dónall.
• Prendergast, Micheál A.
• Quigley, Joseph.
• Quinlan, Patrick M.
• Ross, J.N.
• Sheldon, William A.W.
• Stanford, William B.

Níl

• Connolly O'Brien, Nora.
• Crowley, Patrick.
• Davidson, Mary F.
• Desmond, Cornelius.
• Fitzgerald, John.
• McAuliffe, Timothy.
• Murphy, Dominick F.

Tellers: Tá: Senators Carton and L'Estrange: Níl: Senators P. Crowley and McAuliffe.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Lindsay

Táim buíoch do na Seanadóirí uilig as ucht mé a thoghadh mar Leas-Chathaoirleach. Deanfhadh mé mo dhicheall cothrom na féinne a thabhairt do gach éinne. Guím nach mbeidh an ónóir seo ró-throm orm.

A Chathaoirligh, I thank the House quite sincerely for the very great honour bestowed upon me in appointing me Leas-Chathaoirleach. I hope that honour and privilege will not weigh too heavily upon me and I trust that my sense of fair play will be equal to the demand that may be placed upon it and that my qualifications for the task will be adequate.

To my proposer, Senator Hayes, and my seconder, Senator McGuire, I am especially grateful. Today I have had personal experience of something upon which I have often thought in relation to others; this is the first time I have had experience of listening to a proposer's and seconder's recital of one's qualifications and qualities and, as the recital proceeds apace, self-recognition becomes increasingly difficult.

Miss Davidson

I should like, a Cathaoirligh, to offer my congratulations, through you, to Senator Lindsay and to wish him a very successful term as Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Senators

Hear, hear.