Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Apr 1962

Vol. 55 No. 6

Geneva Conventions Bill, 1961— Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Minister for External Affairs (Mr. Aiken)

The purpose of this Bill, as can be seen from the long title, is to enable the State to become party to the Geneva Conventions which were signed on behalf of this country on the 19th December, 1949. As Senators will know, it is our practice not to become a party to any international agreement unless or until we are in a position to enforce the provisions of the Agreement. This legislation, therefore, is intended to make it possible for us to enforce certain provisions of the Geneva Conventions. The texts of the Conventions, without Annexes, are scheduled to the Bill. The Conventions themselves came into force in October, 1950. Already 82 States have become parties to them. The Conventions are entitled as follows:

1. Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in the Armed Forces in the Field. This is the "traditional" Geneva Convention.

2. The Convention for the Amelior-action of the Condition of the Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea. This so-called "Maritime" Convention extends the treatment which is provided for in the first Convention to sailors, etc. who are covered by this Convention.

3. The Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. The earlier Convention to this, of 1929, which was also known as the Prisoners of War Convention, was successful during World War II in alleviating the condition of millions of prisoners of war on both sides.

4. The Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. This is the first international treaty of its kind. It responds, in this day and age, to a particular need, since, according as war becomes more and more devastating, there is no longer much distinction in its evil effects on armies and civilians.

I should like once more to express the Government's recognition of the essential part played by the International Committee of the Red Cross in the negotiation and conclusion of the Geneva Conventions. The history of the Conventions is the history of the Red Cross itself from its foundation in 1863. The humanitarian treatment provided for in the Conventions is only a reflection of the activities of the Red Cross personnel throughout the world.

This is the third piece of legislation which the Oireachtas has been called upon to pass in order, as I said earlier, to enable us to be in a position to carry out the provisions of the Conventions in full. Already, in 1954 and 1956 respectively, the Oireachtas has passed the Red Cross Act and The Prisoners of War and Enemy Aliens Act. The purpose of each of those Acts was to make provision for miscellaneous matters covered by the Conventions but which the Government did not feel able to carry out in the absence of domestic legislation. This Bill, also, which consists of eight clauses, will enact into our law some of the provisions of the Conventions. The most important of these provisions are those relating to "grave breaches" of the Conventions which are covered in Clause 3 of the Bill and Articles 50 of the First Convention, 51 of the Second Convention, 130 of the Third Convention and 147 of the Fourth Convention. We also take power in Clause 4 of the Bill to punish persons who commit minor breaches of the Conventions. The term "minor breaches" does not, in fact, appear in the Conventions but, as is set out in Sub-clause 4 of Clause 4 for the purposes of the Bill it means a contravention of any provision of the Conventions which is not a "grave breach". The Conventions themselves are not as specific in relation to the enactment of legislation for the punishment of "minor breaches" as they are in relation to "grave breaches" but they do provide that parties should take "measures necessary for the suppression of all acts contrary to the provisions" of the Conventions. The proper course appears to be, therefore, that we should also provide in our legislation for the punishment of "minor breaches".

It will be observed with regard to "grave breaches" that we propose to take power to institute proceedings irrespective of where or by whom the breaches have been committed. This is admittedly a new departure from our criminal law which normally confines itself to offences committed within the jurisdiction of the State or to certain offences committed by nationals outside the State. Nevertheless, it is necessary that we should take this new step because the Conventions so provide. If the Senators refer to the following Articles of each of the Conventions, namely, 49 of the First Convention, 50 of the Second Convention, 129 of the Third Convention, 146 of the Fourth Convention, it will be seen that the State is under an obligation "to search for persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed such ‘grave breaches' and shall bring such persons, regardless of their nationality, before its own courts." Alternatively, we could, perhaps, under the same Articles have handed such persons over for trial to another State. We preferred, however, to choose the first alternative here. Many other countries have also preferred this procedure and have enacted similar legislation to that which we are considering here. Among them are Australia, Britain, India, The Netherlands, New Zealand and Sweden.

I have already drawn attention to the provisions of Clauses 3 and 4 of the Bill. As can be seen, Clause 5 relates to procedural matters. Clauses 6, 7 and 8 contain certain guarantees and protection to persons charged with offences.

I wish to emphasise that we are not enacting all the provisions of the Conventions into our law; the full texts of the Conventions are only scheduled to this Bill in so far as they are relevant to the "minor breaches" provided for in Clause 4 and also, of course, for convenience of reference.

May I express the hope, which I am sure the members of Seanad Éireann will share, that it will never be necessary for us to enforce the provisions of this Bill or, for that matter, of the Conventions.

It would be our intention, subsequent to enactment of this third piece of legislation regarding the Conventions and our ratification of them, that we should print in the Treaty Series the full texts with annexes, so that they may be available for everyone.

I hope that the Bill will meet with the approval of Seanad Éireann.

Professor Hayes

This is a Bill which will surely meet with the approval of everybody in the Seanad. It is an example of international agreement. The first object, I presume, of all international organisations is and has always been the avoidance of war. If that is unsuccessful as, of course, it has proved to be unsuccessful so far, the second object is to provide that in the event of war the effects of the war will be mitigated for those who take part in it. As the Minister has indicated, this particular Bill shows that Conventions have now to be made not only for the treatment of soldiers but also in mitigation of the position of civilians in war.

It is interesting and I suppose comforting to know from the statement made that over 80 States have already signed these Conventions. It is proper that we should do so also. One can only join with the Minister in hoping that in the first instance war will be avoided and that there will be no necessity for putting any part of this Bill into force; and in the second place that in the event of war coming the provisions with which we, of course, agree and which are in accordance with our general outlook and mentality, the provisions of this Bill and of the Conventions which the Bill embodies, will be observed. I think the Bill is very desirable.

Mr. Crowley

There is obviously nothing in this Bill that any sane man could disagree with, in principle at any rate. We would all be happier and a great deal more satisfied with this type of legislation if we could be satisfied that in fact this type of conduct would be followed by all countries in the event of war. I just want to ask a few questions merely out of interest and for information on the Bill itself.

In the first place, I notice that the 1949 Conventions in the Bill replace apparently Conventions signed in 1929. I should like to inquire precisely what countries have subscribed to the new set of Conventions in relation to 1949. If the information were available I should like to see a comparable list of the countries which subscribe to the 1929 conventions. Information of that kind might help us to assess whether or not we are advancing at all.

The various sections of this Bill, particularly the ones that lay down legal penalties for those who break the Conventions in this country are set out in some detail. Are the same penalties imposed by all the other subscribing countries as are imposed on our citizens here by the passing of this type of Bill? If the same penalties are not imposed I should like to ask why they are not.

Article 47 of Schedule I provides that the information contained in the text of the Convention and its principles should be disseminated as widely and as far as possible particularly among the military forces and the general public in the countries which subscribe to it. I should like to ask what precisely are we doing in our own country with a view to seeing that that is done among the members of our own armed forces and the general public.

Finally, these Conventions were actually signed on the 12th February, 1950. I should like to know why it took some 12 years for us to be in the position we are now in, in 1962, in passing a measure of this kind in respect of Conventions signed apparently in 1950. I ask those questions not out of criticism or disagreement with the Bill. It is the type of information which the House ought to be put in possession of.

Mr. Ross

I should like to raise two points, one of which has already been touched upon by the previous speaker. The first one is this. It seems to me that we have got under Clause 7 of the Bill a liability to appoint solicitor and counsel in some cases for anyone who is charged under this Bill. It seems to me that there could be a danger that we might find ourselves with the expenses of a trial such as the Eichmann Trial in this country where we might have no direct interest other than our liabilities under the Convention. I suppose that is something which we must take on in signing the Convention but there is a possibility of heavy expenses in certain circumstances.

The other point touched upon by the previous Senator is this question of information, which was discussed in the Dáil, and the obligation under Article 47 of the First Schedule to provide that the text and the principles of the Convention are disseminated as widely as possible.

I remember during the emergency period when I served for a time with the Local Defence Force that the only information we were ever given touching on the Geneva Convention was that if we were ever taken prisoner we were only to give our name, number and rank. The Minister dealing with this point in the Dáil did say that the officers dealt with the matter very fully in the Military College. Certainly it would be very important that it should be dealt with at the level of the ordinary soldier. He should know not only his rights as a prisoner of war but the other side of the picture, how he should behave if he were to take a prisoner of war. I have talked to one or two serving soldiers and beyond being told to give their name, rank and number I do not think it has been driven into them what their rights are. It is very important at the present time, as soldiers may be put on United Nations service at short notice, that they should know not only their rights but their obligations under this Convention.

Mr. Aiken

I am very grateful to the Seanad for the manner in which this Bill has been received. Senator Crowley asked for the list of countries which signed the 1949 Convention. There are 83 of them. Unfortunately I have not got the list with me but I shall send it to the Senator. The penalties which we have set out here may not be exactly the same as provided by other countries for breaches of the Convention but they are the penalties which seem to us to be appropriate here. For very grave breaches we provide the maximum penalty of death or penal servitude. Then for minor breaches there are lesser penalties. There may be some countries which have abolished the death penalty so they would not be in exactly the same position as here.

Senator Crowley and Senator Ross referred to the dissemination among the Forces and among the public generally of the duties imposed by these Conventions on our Forces in time of war. In the Military College the officers up to now have got lectures, and are open to be examined, on the Conventions that existed heretofore. I take it they communicate to the soldiers so much of the lectures they get as they deem appropriate for the education of the soldiers in their duties. If we look through these Conventions, or indeed the previous Red Cross Conventions, there is nothing in them that one would not expect from ordinary Irish soldiers: that they should not abuse prisoners, but treat them with reasonable humanity. One of the things which Senator Ross thought should be impressed on soldiers was how they should behave if taken prisoner. That is something which they would have to be told but I do not think they would have to be forbidden to do the things forbidden by these Conventions.

In regard to the expenses of providing for a trial here, we took that course because we thought it was the one that was preferable in our circumstances. Of course, it would not preclude extradition proceedings being taken in our courts by some other country. However, we have provided that if somebody is caught here who has committed a grave breach elsewhere, we can try him here for that offence. That is the main direction in which this Bill is going.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.