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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Dec 1966

Vol. 62 No. 4

Appropriation Bill, 1966 (Certified Money Bill): Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Government have been criticised for going abroad for some of their borrowing during the year. It seems to me that much of this criticism—in fact, I should say with respect all of it—is ill-informed and ill-advised. What the Government did in this regard is merely what has been common practice in many progressive countries over the years. I shall name a few—Denmark, Norway, Sweden, New Zealand. It has been said that, because the Government did not get all they would wish to get on the foreign market, something must be wrong with our economy.

As everyone knows, during last year there was a temporary set-back in practically every country in the world, including America. The issue to the European Coal and Steel Community had to be postponed. Large American enterprises, which financially would make our country look puny, had the greatest difficulty in getting what they got and they had to pay eight per cent, whereas we decided to pay 7½ per cent—General Electric and Goodyear International and such mammoth concerns. So, far from criticising the Government for going abroad for money for the purposes of getting our capital programme going, they should be congratulated for taking a new step in that regard.

With regard to the Government's social policy I should like to comment in particular on the new proposals for free comprehensive education for children beyond the national school age. I shall not refer to this as free education because nothing is free. If there is to be this education it must be paid for. If you ask anyone whether he wants this education he will reply in the affirmative. Do not ask "Are you prepared to pay an extra shilling in income tax? Are you prepared to make a sacrifice on that account?" We get back again to that trait in our character which I mentioned this morning in dealing with itinerants. There is a growing trend of selfishness and hypocrisy amongst us. If we want something we should be prepared to pay for it and let us not criticise taxation. From 1960 to 1965 our direct taxation went up from £140 million to £269 million.

That does not mean, of course, that the various types of tax have gone up, that income tax has nearly doubled and so on, because an increase in our prosperity has brought in increased taxes. If the general wealth is higher, more money comes in from income tax. If people are spending more money on beer, whiskey and tobacco, more money comes in from excise, but nonetheless our annual taxation between 1960 and 1965 has increased by £129 million.

Again I commend the manner in which this increase has been expended. It has been expended to a very great extent on that social policy which I commended at the outset. I shall name just four headings under which slightly over half of it has been spent. Agriculture got £28 million of this increase; Social Welfare got £16,500,000; Education got £15 million; and Health £7.6 million. That accounts for £66 million out of the £129 million increase. Other parts of this increased taxation have gone in other directions. Relatively small amounts have been given to tourism which in dividends has brought in extravagantly large returns.

Many of these items will have to be increased as the years go by. The figure for education will have to be increased. We must make up our minds, therefore, that we are prepared to pay for it. There is no use in the world in saying: "We are taxed out of existence." As compared with other countries, our taxation is relatively low. Again I go back to Denmark. You will buy a bottle of Danish lager in this country just as cheaply as you will buy it in Copenhagen. You will buy a packet of 20 cigarettes at about two-thirds of the price you will pay for them in Denmark. A car in Denmark, if it costs under £1,000, if that is the selling price of it, has an enormous turnover tax added to it, while if it costs over £1,000, if that were its nominal selling price, like some of our larger cars here, there is 100 per cent tax on it.

I feel that in many ways we do not appreciate that we have obligations to meet. If we quarrel about the amount of our taxation, we are failing in our obligations to those sections of our community who, in the long run, will be the wealth of this country—our young children who are coming along and who are really the basic raw material because on the skills and education of these children we must depend for the future progress of Ireland.

I welcome the Trade Agreement negotiated during the year with Britain. I welcome it from one point of view, as a person who has a certain interest in industry. I may be one of those people whom normally it would be taken to hit. I welcome it because it causes the Irish industrialist to expand his muscles, gives him a sense of challenge, gives him a test. I believe the results of it are showing themselves in the Irish industry of today.

I had occasion recently to compare a substantial company in Ireland with a similar company in New Zealand. The members of this House might be surprised to know that in New Zealand one can get a new car, run it for 18 months or two years and then sell it secondhand for approximately £200 more than it cost new. It seems fantastic. I had occasion to compare their efficiency in that particular section of industry with the efficiency of corresponding companies in this country. I found that the efficiency and productivity here were approximately 25 per cent higher than there, and nobody will say New Zealand is a particularly backward country.

We have been told that the day of the small farmer is gone. Perhaps it is; I do not know. I should regret to think so. I personally believe that the future of the small farmer is at hand. It is at hand in our co-operative system today which is joined together in larger units. We see at the moment five, six, seven and eight of our co-operative societies exercising the proper co-operative spirit, the proper co-operative practice of merging together and pooling their resources, pooling the facilities for the farmers. I sometimes find it hard to understand why in the same district one finds one farmer who, per cow, in the year can make only £45 and another who, per cow, will make up to £80. I just take the milch aspect of farming alone. I could deal with the other aspects in the same way. What is lacking, and lacking most sadly, in our farming community is not the will to work. They work very hard. There is no such thing as a five-day cow and no such thing as a pig that will be satisfied with being fed on only five days a week. What is lacking in our agricultural community is proper education but I believe that will now spring from this expansion of the co-operative system. If you do not have that, then you will have those small farmers who are ill-educated for the purpose, who do not understand costings, who do not understand the finer points of their own particular mission in life, selling out, and instead of having co-operative support for one another, there will be some mammoth company with its head office—it does not matter whether it is in Dublin, London or Brussels—managing 1,000 acre farms in Ireland. That is why I welcome in particular this expansion of co-operation among the farming community. I believe that in it lies the future of the small farmer of Ireland.

England, for example, has had a severe does of pneumonia, when this country has apparently escaped with a very slight touch of cold. I must say I commend the Government for the steps they took to rectify matters and for having taken them at such an early stage. In this country, so subject to outside influences, a Government is in much the same position as a person in a sailing ship who cannot foretell when a squall will arise, or when a storm or tempest will arise, so what we must do is keep an eye on the weather and, when it looks a bit squally, trim our sails accordingly. That is what the Government did. Fortunately, the results now show their efforts have been successful and, if we are failing in any respect, it is we ourselves—the ordinary citizen—who are failing. We are too concerned with grab rather than with give. This, as I showed at the outset, is particularly noticeable in dealing with the weakest section of our community, the itinerants. It can, however, be seen right up along the line, even within the trade union movement. Those who have large wages want larger. If you try to level up the man down below you must preserve the differential. Nobody will make sacrifices for the other person. That applies to the different sections of our community. Everybody wants to grab the maximum slice of the national cake; unconcerned about the fact that they are taking from their neighbour and leaving their neighbour less.

In my view the Government have adopted a very proper order of priorities during the past twelve months, in fact, during the past five or six years. Instead of moaning and groaning, we should realise that, as a small country, we are really to be envied. I have found, in visiting Denmark, Holland, Sweden, Germany and Austria that by and large the ordinary people in those countries are not as well off as those in this country. If instead of moaning and groaning, we were prepared, just for one short period, to adopt less grab and more give, if we were prepared to say "All right, let more taxation go on, so long as we are satisfied that the money is well spent," then the future of this country would be assured.

The Appropriation Bill gives the Members of this House an opportunity to range over many aspects of Government policy in regard to the administration of the various Departments. I find, however, at this stage and at this time of the year, that there is a very unrealistic air in dealing with matters of major importance in such a debate. I believe this is the first time in the history of the State that the Appropriation Bill has come so late in the year. It is a bit of a fantasy to think we are discussing expenditure here and criticising the expenditure of Government Departments when that could be better done by a watchdog Committee of Public Accounts. This House is to blame just as much as the other House. I must say I thought my own colleagues in the Labour Party were very foolish to co-operate with the other Parties in altering the arrangements in this House and in the Dáil with regard to the Vote on Account and other public business.

Senators know as well as I do that when the Vote on Account comes along the idea is to give the Government a certain amount of money— one-fourth of the estimated expenditure for the coming year—then proceed to analyse the situation and criticise the method in which the money has been spent. But the arrangement now adopted is that the Vote on Account, shall we say, is permission to go ahead and spend three-quarters of the money and Members of both Houses can then criticise or talk about the one-quarter to be spent. In fact, what the Dáil and Seanad are now becoming are rubber stamps as far as the Civil Service is concerned.

I always fought, with very little success, against the further encroachment on the rights of the elected representatives in both Houses of the Oireachtas. I feel when we are discussing, even in the months of November and December, Departmental Estimates—where the money is already expended—there is little point in either House sitting to discuss Estimates. The Committee of Public Accounts carry out a far more searching analysis of how the money is spent. They are in a position to take in civil servants, query them and find out what is happening. This House, and the Dáil, are practically in the position of discussing now what is already spent but they have not the power or the authority to bring in the civil servants, those responsible for the expenditure and question the manner in which the money was expended. Therefore, we have two bodies now, the Committee of Public Accounts and both Houses of the Oireachtas dealing with what has already been spent.

The Committee of Public Accounts cannot discuss policy.

On the Estimates, the Minister will agree with me you cannot advocate new legislation but you can criticise the methods of expenditure. The Committee of Public Accounts may not discuss with the civil servants the question of policy but, at the same time, the members of the Committee of Public Accounts are in a position to find out, by question and answer, what way money is being expended and, from that, the political deductions can be made as to whether it has been spent wisely or otherwise. I think the Minister and others will agree with me that a further look must be taken at the present arrangements. I protest, with very little effect I know, against a further encroachment on the activities of both Houses.

In regard to the Bill itself, my remarks will not range over the field of Government policy or otherwise. I propose to deal with one Government Department, namely, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I have spent some time in recent months making, perhaps, a limited study of the activities of this Department and its expenditure over a period of twelve months. I suppose, up to my investigation of that Department, I was in the position of any other public representative—my knowledge was confined to what, in a superficial way, was brought to my attention. I had really little or no knowledge of what was taking place in what is, to me, a major Government concern.

Senators will appreciate that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is one of the most important Government Departments. It is responsible for banking, for communications and for social welfare. This is a major Government agency for two of those concerns. What in my opinion should be a forward-looking, dynamic, public body is, in fact, the most reactionary body in this State in regard to its methods of business and its economic outlook, and in regard to its treatment of its staff and employees.

Perhaps some Members of the House may doubt the accuracy of my criticism of it as a business concern. I would refer them to a very recent report, "Science and Irish Economic Development", volume 1. This report was made by a survey team set up by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in November, 1963. This body, in association with OECD, made an investigation into a number of Government services, including the Post Office. At page 139 of this Report in connection with the business activities of post offices under the control of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs they had this to say:

The level of technology is low in some post offices, particularly in many urban areas where the load factor is highest. Queues are common. There are many different types of forms including duplicates to be handled. Automatic franking for use by the public, apart from that used by some business offices, is non-existent and many of the post offices themselves are apparently sited without regard for vehicle parking or customer convenience. There appears therefore to be an urgent need for research into the whole working of post offices with a view to rationalisation of procedures, modern equipment, new methods of speeding transactions, location of office and types of service to be automated.

They go on to say:

It is now evident that the social and economic changes taking place demand technological changes in services of this type, and some new techniques in research, notably that of operational research, would have particular application in bringing about improvements.

That Report deserves very serious consideration and I will go back to it again, because there we have from a neutral body a condemnation of the backward situation that obtains in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in regard to giving the public the facilities which are so necessary in modern times. Someone may ask why is that the position. I myself feel that that situation is brought about because the Department is not truly independent. Although we have officially a Department of Posts and Telegraphs, in reality the vital control over its activities is exercised by none other than the Minister for Finance.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are expected to make money. They are expected to show a profit over the years, and to be a paying concern. The extraordinary thing is that that body which are expected to be a paying concern and to show a profit have no power over the expenditure of the profit which they make. I will put it in this fashion. Even when it comes to the purchase of a mousetrap—and that may sound like an exaggeration to some Members of the House—permission has to be sought from the Department of Finance before authority to purchase is given. I could keep the House here for quite a long time discussing the foolishness of the administration in this Government Department, but I do not think that would be fair to other Members of the House.

I came across one very telling example of the old outmoded methods which are still in operation. It is connected with a very simple matter, namely, the painting of letter boxes. I have seen files in connection with the painting of letter boxes, and it was fantastic to discover that prior permission must be sought, and sanction must be got from the Controller of Stores, for the acceptance of a tender for painting letter boxes if the amount involved is over £2. Forms must be filled in duplicate and in triplicate if it goes over that sum.

Postmasters in provincial areas who have a very responsible job to do must find it very thwarting to have to fill in, or have filled in by their staffs, these outrageous forms which have to be sent to the Controller of Contracts for his vestting. One circular states that on the satisfactory completion of a contract which has been arranged on the authority of the Postmaster, the contractor's account, showing the deduction made in respect of paints supplied by the Department may be certified by the Postmaster, after certification by the Controller of Stores of the amount deducted in respect of paints supplied. Where the precedent sanction of the Controller has been obtained for the acceptance of the tender, the account, showing the deduction made in respect of paints supplied by the Department should be submitted to the Controller of Stores for certification of the full amount involved. All I can say about that is that whoever throught that up should be certified.

He is long since dead.

Perhaps that is unfair to him at this stage. I give that as an example of what is taking place every day of the week in what I consider to be one of the most progressive State concerns. I wonder what would be thought, for instance, in the ESB, in Bord na Móna, in the Sugar Company, or any other forward-looking State concern, if they were told: "You cannot expend any money on reconstruction of your premises, on new services, or on any alteration to any of your existing set-up, without the prior consent of the Department of Finance". Would we not be strangling these excellent State or semi-State bodies if they had such a pile of red tape wound around them? Here we have a State body which deal with communications which are of vital importance to the community, and which are an agent for the Department of Social Welfare, and yet they are so ham strung that it is a miracle that they perform even to the extent that they do.

I mentioned telecommunications as one of the functions being carried out by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. In the Dáil recently when the Estimate was under discussion most Deputies who contributed to the debate criticised the unsatisfactory position in regard to telephones, the availability of telephones and the service available where telephones are installed. The Minister was really on the spot. In fact, I think he was on a worse wicket even than his colleague the Minister for Local Government in regard to housing over the past 12 months. It is pathetic when we consider that one excuse put forward by the Minister for the bad telephone system was that it was not good in other countries in Europe either, and that we could take a certain amount of consolation from that fact. He suggested that those who had no telephones, or those who had bad telephone connection, should realise that things were not good in Europe either in regard to the telephone system.

I do not accept that for a moment as being accurate but the Minister really let the cat out of the bag when he said in the Dáil in reply to Deputies who criticised the unsatisfactory state of the telephone system "if I came in ten years ago and asked for money to provide a first-class telephone system I would be laughed out of the House." That is, in fact, what the Minister had to say. I wonder should it carry any weight. The people who should be in a position to know ten years ago about the likely demand in the past ten years for telephones were the people in charge of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and here I want to make a comparison with the ESB. I was a Member of the other House ten years ago and I distinctly remember the ESB producing their different plans, their five-year plans, with a projection ahead of what the demand on the ESB for light and power and so forth would be, and they planned their capital programme on what they felt would be the demand for electricity. They planned in 1960 for 1965 and upto 1970, with the result that the ESB has been able to keep ahead or keep up with the demand. In my opinion there was good planning there, good estimation and good business thinking. If the ESB were doing that as far as power is concerned I think the onus was on the officials of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to show a similar alertness and plan on the same lines.

But the Minister said — I am not going to actually quote him—that this demand for telephones was an explosive demand. I can also say that the demand in regard to electricity was an explosive demand, too, but it has been met and is being met. The fact is that the demand for telephones is not being met. No attempt is made to catch up with the backlog in the applications for telephones over the next three years. There are places in Dublin city where they have applied for a telephone in the last 18 months or two years and it will be another two years before the telephones are installed. That is a fantastic situation in the capital, but that is in the city. The situation with regard to the rural areas is worse.

Again in the city, the Minister had the excuse that we have poor cabling in many areas. Whose fault is that? It would appear from the way he gave excuses for faulty cabling that the lack of these cables and their purchase was the job of some other State Department. In fact, it is the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, or should I say the people who control Posts and Telegraphs, the Department of Finance, so that when I criticise the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in this particular field of planning perhaps I am doing them an injustice. Perhaps they did plan ahead at some stage. They may have foreseen in their plans that the telephone demand would be explosive by 1967 and 1970 and that the Department of Finance knocked them on the head.

I should like to know which group has been responsible. Is it the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for failing to put forward plans, or the Department of Finance which have shot them down? I am glad to think that even at this late stage the Department are wakening up to the fact that the telephone now should be looked upon as an essential in community living. Instead of talking in the Dáil about the ideal situation where housing estates should have provision made for communications when an estate is being planned, the local authorities should be allowed to handle a matter of that nature and insist on these facilities being made available in all new housing estates. That is the position as I see it in regard to the telephone system.

Let us look now at some of the services which could be made available by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. As I have said, they are supposed to be a business concern offering certain facilities to the public. I think that the Department should be out looking for business. I believe that many people in that service giving of their best are only too anxious to extend services to the community and improve the condition of our economy all round. For instance, I believe that the Department should be capable of providing services for the collection of hire-purchase contributions, insurance payments, rates, licences, car taxation and so forth. I may be looking too far ahead when I say that the Post Office as far as its background is concerned should be looked upon as a lending bank as well as a deposit bank for the small depositor, the ordinary man in the street.

I see no reason in the world why the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should not be able to make loans available throughout the country, small loans to the people who are now the small depositors.

Again, and this is something that struck me some time ago when I was looking at the prize bonds, I should like to know why is it that when it comes to the organisation of the prize bonds scheme which is a Government-run concern, it has to be handed over to a commercial outside concern, to a private bank, in order to run it successfully. The running of the prize bonds should be carried out by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. After all, this is a major State concern. It has all the facilities available and I see no reason why it should not be responsible for them and allow the joint stock banks, the commercial banks, to co-operate. I think it is not a fair or proper way to have the Department of Posts and Telegraphs apparently as a subsidiary of a private banking concern in a matter of that nature.

That brings me to what I consider something that could be a matter of major public advantage, a service which so far has been given very little thought indeed. I refer to the provision of the Giro credit system by the Post Office. The Giro system is new in this country. It is so new, in fact, that when the first mention was made in Dáil Éireann of it I doubt very much if many of the Deputies had an idea of what it was about, but the Giro system provides a simple cheap and fast means of transferring money, and in many European countries and elsewhere it has proved itself of tremendous benefit to individuals and business concerns, public utilities and public bodies. The Giro system is functioning at the present time in no fewer than 44 countries. It has been functioning in many of them for 20 years or more. In fact, the only major countries which have stayed outside the Giro system in recent years are Britain and the former Commonwealth countries and the so-called independent Republic of the Twenty-six Countries.

I shall not give any great elaboration of the system, except to say that when it comes to a consideration of extending this type of service to the community, we again prevent them from getting it, again because of the influence of the commercial bank. All the evidence available leads to that conclusion. When I say that until recently Britain would have nothing to do with the Giro system, I should like to make it clear that from 1960 to 1964 in the British House of Commons, every possible effort was made by the then Opposition to force the Government there to introduce this system or to persuade the Postmaster General to do so.

The Radcliffe Commission were set up in 1959 to examine this kind of credit transfer facility to see whether it should be made available and the report of that commission was that if the joint stock banks and others were not making this type of transfer credit system available, the setting up of a Giro system should be seriously considered. As a result of the Radcliffe Commission report, the commercial concerns brought in what has been shown to be today a very hasty, patchy arrangement to provide what they describe as their own form of Giro system. I should like at this point to quote from an expert on the credit transfer system, Mr. F. P. Thomson. The volume is called The Credit Transfer System. The foreword refers to the importance of the system and to the general knowledge of Mr. Thomson on this subject. It states:

Mr. Thomson has performed a very valuable service in presenting to the British public so thorough and convincing an account of the possibilities of the postal Giro system. Clearly the Giro cheque systems of other countries have progressed far beyond anything known in Britain; and the present Post Office Savings Bank — a pioneering effort one hundred years ago—is now an anachronism hampered by artificial restrictions likely only to protect its commercial competitors.

That foreword was written by no less a person than Mr. Douglas Jay, who went on to state:

Mr. Thomson's admirably factual book leaves me in no doubt that a major reform and rearrangement of the POSB on these lines would be of great benefit to the British public and to the smooth working of our whole economy.

That was written in 1964. Since then, the British Labour Government have introduced the Giro system. When I say they have introduced it, I mean they have made the necessary arrangements for its actual introduction in 1968. It takes a while to get it into operation and steps in that direction have been taken in Britain. They will have a system that can dovetail easily into the European system, if and when they join the EEC.

At page 28 of the volume, Mr. Thomson had this to say:

The Government is placing itself in an absurd position. The conventional remittance services are being preserved in all their antiquated inefficiency to safeguard the joint stock banks' vested interest in the equally costly and inefficient monetary transmission method by cheque, credit transfer and current-account.

This matter was raised in the Dáil and the then Minister for Finance said there were 1,001 difficulties in connection with it. He said other concerns were already providing such a service. Who are they? Is it not a fact that the only others providing any type of service are the joint stock banks? We have copied Britain in many bad things too often for too long; yet when we see Britain introducing something good we ignore it. In Britain, it was decided that though the joint stock banks were providing a service, they did not give one equal to the Giro system available in the European countries attached to the Common Market. I commend the statements I have quoted from the Thomson volume to the Minister who, like many of his colleagues, is put to the pin of his collar to try to get money.

What I am complaining about is that this system has been rejected out of hand by the alleged experts in some Departments, and I want to get to the Minister, over their heads, the advantages of a similar system here. Similar advisers in Britain held that the scheme was disadvantageous there. They were overruled by the Government who came in, and the Giro system was set up there.

This Government profess to be interested in joining the EEC. I do not intend to go into that wide theme. The Minister may remember that he and I spoke in the University in Galway some years ago on this matter. A tape recording was made and if the Minister would like it played back, he will find it easy to decide which was the more accurate forecast. It is all on tape for him.

The Senator should have brought it in with him.

The Government hope to get into the Common Market. Whether they do is immaterial to me at this stage because their decision depends on what Britain does. In this context I am reminded very forcibly of visiting the zoo. When I look at a Kangaroo and see the baby kangaroo in her pouch, I think of this country as being in the British kangaroo's pouch. Ireland will go in in the pouch of the British kangaroo. Whether or not we are going into the EEC, we should be making arrangements so that our system is devetailed to meet with the requirements of what will be in operation in Britain in a short time.

I know that difficulties will be involved in this but I also know that in Britain the people in charge of the Giro service are more than anxious to have discussions with their opposite numbers here in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I have been in touch with those people within the past month or two and they are anxiously waiting for an opportunity for a discussion with their opposite numbers here regarding the possibility of working out arrangements on the Giro transfer system which would be mutually beneficial.

The Government in Britain have already made a decision on the decimal coinage system. We must make a similar decision soon. It is possibly on the mat any day now. As far as business is concerned, our system should be devetailed with the system in Britain, whether it is the Giro system or the decimal coinage system. We should be up to date on this matter. I hope the reactionary outlook that has been quite apparent in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs with regard to a credit transfer system will be speedily wiped out.

There is one other point I could not understand. In the Dáil, the Minister, when speaking about the Giro system, said it would mean that people would be inclined to dissipate their savings. I do not want to bore the House with this but that to me is a most fantastic mentality with regard to a system which is working so successfully in no fewer than 44 countries, which is an essential part of the services of EEC and EFTA and which Britain now considers so absolutely necessary that they are spending £3 million in opening the first Giro bank in 1968. We are told here that people would dissipate their savings with this type of system. My hope is that the change which has taken place, the game of musical chairs in the Departments that has operated since this statement was made in the Dáil, will mean that there is some change regarding this matter in the thinking of the new Minister.

This Department should be up and fighting for business, I know the Department of Finance are against them. I shall give another example of how they have gone about things within the past few years. I think it was the former Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, who opened one of the biggest development schemes in this city, a shopping centre and business centre out in Stillorgan. I went out and looked at this place recently and it is a fantastic concern. I shall comment on only one aspect of it at this stage. Every service which is provided there is up to date, except the post office in Stillorgan. That is at the same stage as when Stillorgan was a rural village. We have a very modern community centre here and one would think that a modern up-to-date post office, which would give facilities to the people on a par with modern developments in business and everything else would have been provided.

The Post Office were asked to provide such a service. There must be a foot of dust on the file. I know their competitors, the commercial banks, were very quick to find space out in Stillorgan. They have slipped in to provide certain services which, in my opinion should be provided by the Post Office. This is another way in which the commercial banks are slowly taking over certain Government services which should be provided by the Post Office and others. When I read the provincial papers, I see that banking cartels are now appointing special agents in the west of Ireland and other areas to give some new services to the farming community. People will be misled that the farming community are actually getting those services. The trouble is that the Post Office and other State bodies, which should be giving those services are not doing so.

There is a final example I should like to give regarding Post Office services. I would like the Minister to know that when the bank strike was contemplated not so long ago, the Post Office Authorities first decided to co-operate with the bank directors, as far as facilities for the general public were concerned. They issued instructions to the provincial offices all over the country. As far as money orders were concerned, this was the first order they issued:

Individual orders may be issued for any amount.

That was a departure from the existing arrangements of the Post Office. I presume that was done in consultation with the Government and the bank directors; in other words, break this strike if you can through the Post Office. The second directive given at that time was in regard to money orders to Great Britain and the Six Counties. This was the directive issued:

Individual orders may be issued up to £1,000 per order.

That was brought to my attention some six or seven months ago, just before the strike. When I heard about this, I made my views known in no uncertain fashion on behalf of the many people involved in the Post Office. I am very glad to say that there was a cancellation of the money order directive and a new one sent out which stated:

Individual orders may not exceed £100.

The directive in regard to Great Britain and the Six Counties was changed to read:

Individual orders may not exceed £50.

That, in my opinion, was a correct decision to make and one that nobody could criticise. If the Department of Finance were able to do something regarding this particular dispute between the banks and their staff, I feel this business between the commercial banks and the Post Office and other State people is something which should be very seriously examined by the Government.

With regard to Post Office services, if you are going to offer services, you must have premises for those services and you must have staff to provide them. I am sure Senators from provincial areas who are listening to me will have no trouble in thinking of their own localities and the condition of the post offices in many of them. I do not want to be taken here as saying that nothing is being done. I know areas where first-class facilities have been provided but they are the exception. In many ways this campaign to provide new post offices and to site them properly was very slow to start.

When I speak about the condition of premises, I feel that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs does not show an active interest in it. His colleague, the Minister for Labour, should do so, because in his opening speech in the Dáil as Minister for Labour, he quoted the Factories Act. He pointed out there was in existence in his Department a section which dealt with factory premises and that there were a number of factory inspectors available to see whether the conditions in those factories were such that the welfare and the health of the staff was protected. I do not think he has enough, in fact, to look after the factories but he should recruit more to look after the conditions of some of our post offices and telephone exchanges. It is a terrible condemnation of Government services when it has become necessary to have the members of one Department of State acting as inspectors of other Departments. We should not have conditions in the post office which in a private enterprise would not be tolerated. A private enterprise would be prosecuted for conditions such as those.

I could mention a large number of these post offices but I will not. I should like, however, to mention a few. I see a colleague of mine here from Cavan town where the premises are not suitable for staff who are carrying out the duties and services they are expected to give to the public. In Cavan a site was made available in 1962. The post office staff and the public have been looking forward since 1962 to a proper post office being built. So far, however, nothing whatever has been done to provide that post office.

There are a number of exchanges in the country which are rat-infested. There are a number of other exchanges where the health of the staff is in danger. In Castlerea the telephone exchange is of such a type that it is impossible for any girl to stay in there for a lengthy period because of the suffocating atmosphere and the confined conditions. When some of these matters were brought to my attention, I decided to test out the Department's reaction on the complaints made to me. A colleague of mine was good enough to put down a question in Dáil Éireann about the conditions in one particular post office and exchange. When the House hears the reply to that question it will find that it covers a multitude as far as the Department is concerned. The question was asked on 12th October, 1966. It reads as follows:

To ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs what is the position in relation to the provision of a new telephone exchange at Fermoy, County Cork; whether he is aware of the overcrowded and unhealthy conditions of the present building, arising from which there is a high incidence of sickness among the telephonists; and that in present circumstances it is not possible to provide an adequate service to the public; and whether immediate steps will be taken (1) to overcome the present unhealthy conditions and (2) to provide facilities which will enable a proper service to be given to the public.

That question was asked in October and the Minister's reply was:

The incidence of sickness among the telephonists in Fermoy is well below the average for the grade and there is no evidence that conditions in the exchange have contributed to ill-health.

I am aware that the space in the present telephone exchange is inadequate and that the quality of service during busy periods falls below the desired standard. Action to remedy the situation has, however, already been taken. Arrangements have been made to transfer the exchange to a larger room being fitted out for this purpose in adjoining premises which have been acquired. The work involved, which will include minor structural alterations and the installation of extra switchboards, will take some time to complete but the new exchange will be in service in good time for next summer's traffic peaks.

What is the actual position in that exchange? Seven years ago it was admitted on the investigation of a very prominent trade union official that the space in the exchange was then inadequate for the number of girls working there and the number at that time was 8 telephonists. The only great change that has taken place since then is that the number of telephonists has increased to 16 and the only improvement in the installation that has taken place is that two extra switchboards have now been put into the same exchange, which was found seven years ago to be inadequate in size for eight telephonists. It now has 16 telephonists and two extra switchboards.

About three years ago steps were taken to improve the situation. What happened was that the premises next door were purchased and from that day to this, as far as I can gather, I do not think a hammer or a nail was used to alter the new premises in any shape or form. Instead of that there has been an endless procession of engineers from the Engineering Section of the Post Office and, indeed, from the Board of Works examining, preparing, estimating——

And reporting.

——and nothing has been done. The Minister stated: "The work involved, which will include minor structural alterations and the installation of extra switchboards, will take some time to complete but the new exchange will be in service in good time for next summer's traffic peaks." Up to last week no such arrangements have been made. The Minister talks about the quality of service. I am talking about the position at the present time. An ordinary trunk call takes on average one to two hours.

It was my impression that things had got a lot better all round in the telephone service.

The Minister is entitled to his impressions but I shall try to convince him rather than impress him. I hope the Minister does not doubt what I am saying in this particular instance. What I am saying is perfectly accurate. I bring no information into the House until I have checked and cross-checked it on its accuracy.

I was talking about the general service.

There is an impression all round. Everybody is improving; everybody is getting more sophisticated.

Except some of us.

The Minister should realise that he is not talking to the farmers outside at the present moment. To take the Minister up on his remark, it is true that in the town of Fermoy there is a pencil factory with first class conditions. More power to the people concerned. There are good conditions for the clerical staff and for the people doing clerical work and handling the telephone switch in the new pencil factory in Fermoy. Why can we not do the same for our own employees in the same town? There are substantial State grants going to private concerns and there are improvements taking place in many places but this does not refer to the post offices as far as the workers are concerned.

There is another office, which I think is the worst of all, in Wexford. The conditions there and the overcrowding are terrible. However, I do not want to go into too much detail on these things.

A by-election is the only cure for this.

I doubt it, seeing the result of the last two.

The Valentia Bridge is going to be built at last.

When dealing with the premises we must also take into account the people who work in these premises. It cannot be denied that when it comes to being in the front line of attack as far as criticism is concerned the telephonists are there to take the brunt. If there is an hour's delay or two hours delay those girls must act as public relations officers and apologise to the public and hold their tempers very often when they are criticised by, shall we say, hasty callers, people who are justifiably annoyed at protracted, inexcusable delays. Those girls act loyally as defenders of the Department and keep the wrath of the public off the Department. Are they compensated for the work they do in that regard—for their courage and dedication to duty? In comparison with their colleagues in other spheres they are way below as far as conditions of service and pay are concerned.

The Minister made special reference in his speech in the Dáil to one particular section of the telephonists. I refer to night telephonists. When the Minister referred to night telephonists he said that there were labour troubles in the Department over the last twelve months. I think that is a very unrealistic description of what took place in the Department over the last 12 months.

We had the position in the Department that about 180 to 200 night telephonists—there were many married men among them who had to work at night—sought an improvement in their conditions. They sought it with patience for many years and were rebuffed and rejected in their demands. Nobody in this country, in my opinion, ever wants to take extreme action and never takes extreme action unless he is forced to do so and unless his case is desperate. Those people sought their right to put their own case. They decided to do what, in my opinion was an unwise thing in one sense—to picket Leinster House. They were carted off to prison and even some of their colleagues, young girls who supported them, had savage fines imposed on them. It was hard to understand why. These people were only doing what they felt they were entitled to do. Their intention was to bring home to their public representatives the plight they were in. What happened? They were whisked off to prison as if they were criminals. This was done under emergency legislation, under the Emergency Powers Act which is the type of legislation that should not be tolerated in any civilised country.

What to me is an extraordinary thing at the time all this was going on the whispering campaign was afoot "these are dangerous people. There are wrong elements in them. There is communism there". Nobody understands this type of smear more than I do because I suffered from it for many years. In fact, the latest attempt was when they tried to hang some tag like that on the farmers. Quite a number of people at the time believed that many of these telephonists were wild men and had close contact with subversive organisations. Now that it is all over and done with it is accepted that they were all decent people fighting for their rights.

As far as that particular period was concerned they failed to achieve one of their aims. One would imagine at that stage that the Department would, as victors, hold out a hand to the vanquished. One would think that at least they would say: "We will improve conditions in the post office. We will improve conditions for night telephonists. We will cut out the secret observation that is carried out on telephonists"—secret observations which are abandoned in every country in the world but in Ireland at the present time. What happened? In fact, conditions have worsened in the Department. Every possible effort has been made to needle those men into further action. Many of them have been threatened with dismissal. Many of them have been subject to grave forms of intimidation.

The Minister himself in the Dáil said that he would like to see an improvement in the conditions of those night telephonists and an improvement in the service. Why does he not take steps to bring about these improvements? What is the big delay? Surely over the last 12 months or so the Minister is fully aware of the situation. The protracted delay is making matters still worse.

That brings me to another important point in this particular State service namely the educational requirements in the service. In the last 12 months we had a great deal of discussion—I am sure it was mentioned here today before I came in—on the Quinn Tribunal. When that tribunal was set up the idea was that the Government wanted to put an end to what they called the leapfrogging that was taking place since 1959 in pay claims of the clerical grades in State and semi-State concerns and in similar clerical grades outside the Civil Service. The Quinn Tribunal was asked to make a recommendation on what would be an appropriate rate of pay for the various clerical grades. They carried out an investigation into 14 clerical grades in the country. They decided that the work carried on by those 14 clerical grades was comparable and they arrived at a figure which, I must say, has not met with the approval of the 14 grades investigated. At any rate, they arrived at a figure which they consider to be a guide for the future.

In the course of this investigation in arriving at a figure they concentrated on what they called the rate for the job. It was agreed that the work of the recruitment grade clerks in the ESB, Bord na Móna, CIE, Civil Service and the rest of the groups was similar, and the tribunal then recommended that a certain standard of education was necessary in these clerical grades. In spite of the evidence made available to them, they decided that the standard of education required for entry should be approximately the intermediate standard or the technological equivalent. The evidence submitted by numerous bodies and by the clerical grades investigated was that the leaving certificate was essential. In fact, we know that many of the grades investigated demand and insist on leaving certificate with three honours before admission to the recruitment grade is possible.

The majority report settled for the intermediate as the admission standard but there was a minority report from one member, Mr. McCarthy, and he pointed out that the evidence available bore out his recommendation which was as follows. He referred to the standard as that of intermediate and he said:

In this connection I am surprised at the statement in the majority report that the educational standard on recruitment is not necessarily higher than the secondary schools intermediate certificate or its equivalent. I think that there may be confusion here between a general standard indicated by an examination and the standard achieved by those who do a competition on the basis of the examination. My impression very clearly was that the standard — whatever about the actual examination—is leaving certificate, and I believe the evidence we received supports me in this.

What I want to make clear to the Minister in this is that when the Quinn Tribunal hatched out this idea of the intermediate certificate as being suitable for the 14 major recruitment clerical grades of the country, I think they were doing a disservice to the whole idea of improving the educational standards and facilities of our people.

All Parties are agreed on the absolute necessity of making education available to all our people, irrespective of their means; that young people be given an opportunity of exercising their God-given talents in absorbing an education and the only restriction should be a restriction as far as the talent of the individual child to absorb an education is concerned. I am very glad to see that everybody in both Houses is committed to that. The methods to be adopted will be criticised and fought over but, in this connection, I bow to nobody in my regard for educational facilities because, in 1959, in Dáil Éireann I had the honour of seconding a motion calling on the Government, then, to extend the school-leaving age to 15 and make available the necessary resources to finance the training of teachers and the building of schools for a continuation of the education of our people. That motion in Dáil Éireann was accepted unanimously by all Parties. This is 1966 and, from 1959 to 1966, this Government, apparently, have made no effort whatever to implement a motion unanimusly accepted in Dáil Éireann in 1959.

Even at this late stage, of course, I welcome the fact that they are now alert to the absolute necessity—from the economic point of view, I think that is why they have wakened up to it—for giving educational facilities to our young people.

When all this interest is here in education, why should we have a deliberate attempt by a tribunal, set up by the Government, to deliberately depress the standards of admission to the clerical grades in the Civil Service, the ESB, CIE, Bord na Móna, the Sugar Company, the Dublin Port and Docks Board and all the other clerical groups in the country? It was a deplorable recommendation for a so-called responsible tribunal to make, but I have a feeling that those people who were on that tribunal, or at least some of them were, shall we say, there for a purpose. I do not want in any way to criticise those people as individuals, I want that clearly understood. But we had, on the one hand, Mr. McCarthy with a Minority Report, as the nominee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, and he felt the leaving certificate was the standard required. I accept and support his view.

On the other hand, we had the other members, two of whom were appointed by the Government and another man who was nominated by the Federated Union of Employers. This other gentleman, although nominated by the FUE was, and is at the present moment, connected with banking in a big way. In fact, at that time, he was Secretary of the Banks Staffs Relations Committee, and as such, he was nominated to the Quinn Tribunal. The strange thing is that this gentleman had always insisted that the rate for the job should count as far as the banks were concerned and he compared the work of bank clerks with that of the clerical grades in the ESB and all the other groups. But when it came to making a recommendation on the standard required, he agreed that the intermediate standard was sufficient for the clerical grades referred to. Yet when it comes to the banks we find him making arrangements to provide university facilities for the bank clerks whom, six months ago, he said were comparable—on a rate for the job— with the clerical grades which he investigated in the Quinn Tribunal.

Therefore, I do not accept for one moment that the intermediate standard is one that should be accepted for the recruitment grade in these 14 clerical groups. Be that as it may, there is something into which the Minister should inquire at this stage. Fourteen major clerical recruitment grades were investigated. Why is it that one of the most important clerical grades in the country was left out of that inquiry? I refer now to the Post Office clerk. There was not one hour of an investigation. Not one letter was sent to a union or anybody else representing the Post Office clerks. No evidence of any description was offered by anybody on his behalf as regards his work, standard of education or the training required by him but yet, in the Quinn Tribunal, one reference is made in the entire Report to the Post Office clerk and that is where the Report deals with the leapfrogging which I referred to in the beginning of my contribution to this debate. Dealing with the leapfrogging since 1959, the Quinn Tribunal, on page 12, states:

The most far-reaching effect of the movement was felt in the Civil Service where, first Post Office Clerks, and later Clerical Officers moved up in sympathy with the general tendency towards parity with ESB rates.

In other words, the Post Office clerk is named once in this Quinn Tribunal. Yet no investigation of the type of work he does, was made, but he is blamed for starting the leapfrogging in all those other groups all along the line.

What was the position in 1964? The Quinn Tribunal is out now for some months. In 1964, in Dáil Éireann, on the 15th April the former Taoiseach spoke as follows, and I quote from column 1781 of volume 208 of the Official Report:

When the Government examined the position in the Post Office, we found that salaries had fallen behind comparable classes in other branches of the public service and we decided that it was just and right to make an adjustment in these salaries to bring up the clerical salaries and operative wages in the Post Office to the comparable standards applying to similar work in other sectors of the public service.

There, in 1964, the former Taoiseach admits that the Post Office clerk and his colleagues had fallen behind comparable groups outside. Yet in 1966 the Quinn Tribunal turned around and blamed the Post Office clerk for starting the leapfrogging, which resulted in having to set up the Quinn Tribunal. The Government cannot have it both ways. At this stage I want to bring it home that what has happened in this particular regard is that the Post Office clerk—although in many instances doing work which requires a far higher skill and knowledge than many of the clerical grades referred to in the investigation of the Quinn Tribunal—is in a far greater depressed condition, because of the deliberate policy of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. You may ask why should a Department do this. The reason is simple. In spite of the fact that his work—and particularly that of a grade A clerk— is of a very high clerical nature, the standard of admission as a clerk believe it or not is that of a seventh-class primary school. I wonder did the Department ever hear of the Apprenticeship Act. Under the Apprenticeship Act it is mandatory—where a young person is to be apprenticed to any trade or skilled occupation—that he have either the intermediate certificate, or a technological certificate equivalent to that, from a vocational school.

That is the law of the land now so far as apprenticeships are concerned, and the only group excluded in the community from that very desirable legislation, which I can trace, are the Post Office clerks who only require a seventh class primary certificate to get into the Post Office. They are then expected to do work which needs the very high skills to which I have referred.

Let me make it quite clear that the majority of the people to whom I refer have their leaving certificates, but when we come to rate for the job they are paid on the basis of being seventh class primary standard on admission. Here we have a Department which is able to deprive a very highly educated and intelligent section of the workers of their due right in their pay packets, because of the deliberate lowering of the standard on admission. Very serious consideration will have to be given to this matter by the Minister and his Department before very long.

I must admit that these people have been very patient over the years. If the Minister wants to see a conflict in the operation of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in this field, I would refer him to the fact that while the standard required for admission as Post Office clerks is the seventh class primary certificate, yet when recruitment for telephonists is undertaken, the Civil Service Commission have reserved the right to call only those who have intermediate standard or its equivalent. So, the Civil Service Commission reserve to themselves the right to keep the standard of admission as telephonists higher in the educational sphere than that required for recruitment as Grade B clerks in the Post Office.

I want to go from that to something which is more topical for this House. I want to refer now to the recent by-election in Kerry in a very brief fashion and not in the way in which the Minister expects.

(Longford): Was it when you were coming home that you went to Fermoy?

The Government candidate in the by-election in South Kerry was a local government official. I am very glad that a local government official can contest an election for Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann. I have no doubt in the world that the man elected will look after the interests of his Party and those who support them. That is not the reason I raise this matter. I raise it because of a very fundamental right of every citizen, namely, the civil right which should be available to all members of the community. We have in this House a number of national teachers. National teachers can sit here, or in the Dáil and they can then go down and teach young people. No one ever claims that it is wrong to have them here. I think it is right. Having accepted that it is correct that national teachers should be able to sit in the Oireachtas, why is it that other people in the public service are debarred from a similar natural right? A county council clerk, a clerical officer, or a staff officer can stand for election to Oireachtas Éireann. We had such a man elected to the other House from Kerry.

How is it that people in the post office in Kerry are not even allowed to stand on the platform of any political Party? Why is it that they are not entitled to show their approval or disapproval of the candidates? Not only are they not allowed to stand for election, but they are not allowed to associate themselves with any political Party. Postmasters and Post Office staffs in rural Ireland are well known and important and respected people. Senators know as well as I do that most of the voluntary rural organisations get great assistance from Post Office officials. In fact, many key positions and secretaryships of local committees and "do good" committees are held and efficiently administered by Post Office officials. Yet, when it comes to the exercise of what should be their right in an election to one of the Houses of Parliament they are told: "You are only a third class citizen and you are not even entitled to assist the Party of your choice". That is something which I hope to see changing. Many people have been too quiet and undemanding in this field.

A question which was asked in the Dáil by Deputy Belton on 26th January, 1966, some time before I had any particular interest in this matter, was brought to my attention. It was in regard to the functions of officials of trade unions associated with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. To my amazement I found that the Minister said that an official of his Department while seconded to a trade union in the public service was subject to regulations governing the conduct of civil servants and accordingly was not free to take part in political activities. I think that is a shocking imposition on the rights of those people. I find it hard to credit that in 1966 any Government would deliberately keep that type of restriction on public servants.

They are civil servants. They become uncivil when they become like you.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That remark should not have been made.

It is a typical ignorant bosthoon interruption from the Senator.

(Longford): Behold the cultured man.

We know where you got your training. They took you out of a Franciscan College where you should have been left.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Personal remarks are not in order. Senator McQuillan to continue on the Appropriation Bill without interruption.

(Longford): The Senator passed a rude remark to my colleague and I thought I had better return the compliment.

Perhaps I should deal with the point that they are civil servants. Can the Senator distinguish for me the difference between an official in that category, namely, a post office clerk in the town of Killarney or a clerk in a county council office?

I could, but I would not be allowed.

(Longford): They are civil servants, not local authority officials.

I always felt they were both performing a public duty.

(Longford): I gave you the answer.

Both are doing something in the interest of the community, and both are paid out of the public purse, and they should be on an equal basis.

(Longford): I gave you the answer.

I do not wish to interrupt, but I was a local authority official when I came in here, and I was not debarred, but if I were a civil servant, I could not come in here and be in the position of a master and an employee at the same time.

Surely the Post Office clerk is a civil servant?

I accept exactly what the Senator is saying, but surely the local government official does not practise or work as a local government official while a Member of this House? I accept that, while a Member of the House, he should not go back as an official in the local government service.

He is not a State servant.

The teacher is the one man who can have the greatest influence on young people's minds, and if he is politically biased, he could be charged with being biased in favour of any political Party, but I do not suggest that that is the case. The teachers in effect are State servants. They are paid by the State; it may be in an indirect way because they are appointed by the parish priest who is the manager, but their cheques are paid by the Department and they are just as much public servants as a Post Office official.

All I ask is that there be another look at this thing to see can we extend the rights; that is all. I know the position just as it is and I am just attempting to put forward arguments which I think should be seriously considered. I see no reason why further facilities in the field of civil rights should not be applied to people in these categories.

I do not wish to speak any longer about it.

I will leave that matter as it is for the moment because I would like, maybe outside this House, to hear the views of Senators in more detail.

Is it not obvious that you would be the one person who would be the first to criticise those people if they were to engage in politics?

Just exactly as I criticise the Senator.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is undesirable that the debate should proceed by way of question and answer. Senator McQuillan, to continue.

I am quite satisfied.

I want to deal now with another aspect, something that is of importance to the Minister for Labour in particular. The Minister for Labour is introducing legislation in connection with the trade union movement, and he has made it clear that he favours amalgamation of trade unions where they are representing workers engaged in similar employments. The Trade Union Congress, according to the Minister, has stated that it is making a move to bring about re-organisation among the trade unions themselves in accordance with this.

I want to put it to the Minister, that when such a movement is contemplated in the public service, it is a very bad example for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to try to sabotage efforts made in that regard. A few minutes ago, Senator Ó Donnabháin said that I would be the first to criticise civil servants for taking part in politics. I am coming now to the time when they have been engaged in politics, and to the fact that early this year a very high official of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs went to Bray to the postmasters' annual conference and in the course of a lecture to the postmasters on trade unionism, suggested that they should stay in their own little friendly society of postmasters.

At that time, the Minister was well aware that quite a number of postmasters, controlling officers, and others, clerical grades in the Post Office, were contemplating amalgamation rather than fragmentation in the trade union movement. I take a very serious view of the attempt of a higher official of the Department—I presume on ministerial orders—to prevent such a desirable development in the trade union movement. I am not going to develop that point very much here now because it will be developed at a later stage in other ways, but having said that as far as postmasters are concerned, after warning the particular Minister at the time of the danger of what he was doing, I find it hard to understand now why he sent his senior survey officers from the Department to every post office in Ireland with instructions to the postmasters by word of mouth to have nothing whatever to do with any new union engaged on re-organisation in the postal service. There was a deliberate intrusion by the Minister into the affairs of the trade unions, and whatever may be said about trade unions carrying out their own form of re-organisation, when the Minister has no authority, by way of statute or otherwise, it is a matter for grave concern, to find a Minister of State actively engaged in trying to prevent clerical grades doing similar types of work from coming together and forming one strong trade union.

I have listened for a long time to people in and out of this House talking about the new industrial approach, about management and workers sitting on the same board. In the past five or ten years, we have heard plenty of advisers on labour relations saying that the workers should be consulted. I believed in it not today or in the past four or five years. I always took the view that the person who does the job in many instances is better equipped to advise than those who sit in the background and have not the actual detailed knowledge which the staff or the workers have in the particular business or industry. I am suggesting that it is a highly desirable development that management and staff should sit on the same board, and I do not like to see any attempt being made by a Government or a higher civil servant to prevent that desirable development.

The Minister for Labour—and I will not go further than to quote this— said: "All institutions, to remain useful, must be dynamic." We do not see any trace of that dynamic spirit or approach in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs at the moment, but if the Minister who is now in charge of that Department is prepared to take a look at new suggestions as to how the public service can be improved, if he is prepared to listen to advice from outside on how to expand the present service and give new and better services in many fields, that advice will be made available to him. But so far as the overall position is concerned, the main thing that has to be done at this stage is to take the Department of Posts and Telegraphs from under the dead hand of the Department of Finance. I am quite satisfied on that matter. However much the Minister agrees with suggestions made by people in the other House on improvements, there is little he can do while the Department of Finance has the controlling influence in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The Government should without delay take the necessary steps to make the Department of Posts and Telegraphs a public body on the same lines as the ESB or CIE.

When I say that, I do not for a moment want to give the idea that I want to see public or semi-state bodies cut off from a certain amount of control by the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am not suggesting that absolute freedom should be given to any State or semi-State body. Overall control should be exercised by a Committee of the Oireachtas. People have often accused me of saying that I want more State enterprise. I certainly do, but on the lines of the ESB and the Sugar Company. However, I invariably add to that suggestion that a little more control should be exercised over these bodies without affecting their general efficiency. The administration of the Post Office is far removed from the system under which the ESB work. Other State Departments are worked in a purely administrative system but the Post Office deals with finance and it is expected to provide a service which affects the general public in an intimate way. Therefore, the sooner the Government decide to give this service, the Post Office, the power to raise its own finances and to provide the many services to which the community are entitled, without having a Minister or a Department investigate every turn or twist, the better it will be for the people we represent. If such a system of administering the Post Office were introduced the Minister can be assured of co-operation from all the workers in the Post Office, because not only will he be benefiting the service but the people who work in it.

First of all, I protest against the fact that the Appropriation Bill was ordered so late in the Parliamentary term, particularly because we agreed to a change of time when the Appropriation Bill came before us in former years late in the summer, in August. We suggested then that the House should be given this Bill at a time when a thorough debate would be possible. That is certainly not the position practically on Christmas Eve. It does not facilitate a good debate.

There are only one or two points I wish to make on the Bill. I believe— and I think the belief is widely held— that the country is being run on bluff. We constantly hear Ministers telling the public of increased amounts of money being made available for various State services. We all know of the many taxation increases imposed in the two Budgets this year, and the Book of Estimates for the current year shows increased expenditure. At the same time, this is difficult to understand, especially when we realise that the former Minister for Local Government during the past six months told the country about the increased moneys available to be spent on the provision of housing and various ancillary services.

It is very difficult to accept what Ministers have been saying when we find that the housing lists of local authorities contain the names of thousands of families throughout the country who are looking for houses and when we find established, at practically every approach to Dublin, caravan sites on which are living hundreds of families who cannot find housing accommodation. These conditions exist at a time when Ministers have been telling the country that never before was there as much money being spent on housing.

That is all the more difficult to accept when we look at the work done in the respective local authority areas. I know of one local authority who put forward a scheme 15 months ago and sought sanction for the building of 66 houses. They have been given sanction for only about one fortieth of that programme. The same applies to every local authority in the country. In face of these facts it is time the Government came clean with the people and ceased this game of trying to get the public to believe that the number of houses built is going up. To bolster their case, the Government are blaming the lack of housing progress on the inactivity of local authorities who, to my knowledge, are doing an excellent job when they succeed in getting sanction for their plans from the Department of Local Government.

Because the Government have been unable to provide adequate housing for the people in Dublin and the larger centres throughout the country, the least the public can expect is that adequate sanitary arrangements will be provided on the temporary caravan sites. At seaside resorts if an individual plans a caravan site he is subjected to exacting regulations in respect of sanitary services: certain amenities must be provided. In the case of the caravan sites I have mentioned, councils appear to be allowed to ignore such regulations. If homeless families in Dublin are forced to live in caravans on sites surrounding the capital city, the least the Government should do is to provide adequate sanitary services, if only in the interests of public health.

When those people approach the local authorities and the money is not forthcoming, immediately the blame for this automatically falls back on the shoulders of the local councillors, who are blamed in the wrong for not doing their duty. We hope that if the Government are really sincere in getting ahead with the provision of houses for the many unfortunate families who remain on our housing list, they will, with the least possible delay, sanction all the schemes which remain in the Department of Local Government and at least have the building programmes which the various councils have submitted put into operation.

I should like to comment on the fact that practically every group water supply scheme has been unduly held up for the past six months by some difficulty between the Department of Local Government and the pipe manufacturers. There is no other single service which tends so much to elevate the standard of living, especially in rural Ireland, as a piped water supply.

It is good to hear somebody say that.

In the past months, voluntary groups have given their time and energy and put a considerable amount of work and voluntary labour into efforts to provide those schemes. If those unfortunate delays are to continue, much of this work will have been wasted. I feel I am correct in saying that there are at least a half dozen schemes held up in every county and I am sure that for the bigger counties the figure would be much greater. Unless this thing is resolved immediately, the schemes, as designed, will fall through and the moneys collected will have to be given back because with increasing costs and the way they tend to increase so rapidly at the present time, if there is any further undue delay, much of this good work will have to fall through.

I certainly cannot see any reason why this situation should be allowed to stay static, as it is at present. When we look at the records, we find there are almost 1,500 miles of piped line laid by group water schemes throughout the Twenty-Six Counties and of this sizeable mileage, I believe something in the region of seven miles of piping have been found to be faulty. When we consider that quite a considerable amount of this can be traced back directly to mishandling or carelessness of one kind or another, it is unreasonable that thousands of families should be deprived of this great facility which we should look on as being in line with rural electrification. I urge the Minister for Finance to ensure that this technicality does not unduly prolong the installation of the various water schemes.

I should like to say a word on the Government's policy regarding motor taxation. I find, in looking up the records, that the average life of a motor car in this country is only seven years compared with 12 years in Britain and Northern Ireland. The major reason for this short life of cars in this country is that, because of the very high rate of taxation on large cars, they are not utilised as much as they should be. If some scheme could be devised of scaling down the tax rate on those larger cars, after seven years, we could, in a very definite way, help our balance of payments problem by utilising those vehicles over a longer number of years.

In line with this, there should also be introduced a vehicle inspection of a type which would ensure that all those vehicles are roadworthy. Many of those big saloons would be of immense value to certain sections of the community, particularly the farming community, if they were turned into tow vehicles and road tractors, provided the annual tax rate was brought down to a reasonable figure. We would save quite a lot on new vehicles if some such arrangement were made. The fact that they are rather extravagant on petrol would ensure that the Exchequer would not suffer or be at any great loss.

Earlier this evening, some Senator complimented the Government on their excellent order of priorities. When I looked at the Book of Estimates, I was rather taken aback on seeing the Estimate for Prison Services on page 62. I found that the cost of maintaining a prisoner for a year in any of our jails averages out at £734. When we contrast that with the paltry amount allowed to the various voluntary organisations or religious orders who look after young boys sent to industrial schools or reformatories, surely our order of priorities is very much out of line? Our young offenders should get every consideration. It is difficult to understand how it is possible to reform these young people and give them a proper education on 71/6d per week, bearing in mind that it costs so much to maintain ordinary prisoners who have no qualms of conscience about assaulting an old man of 93 years of age, as happened some weeks ago.

Surely there must be something wrong with the Government's order of priorities in this regard? Young offenders who are sent to industrial schools or reformatories should get every chance and no money should be spared to ensure that they get a sound and thorough education and that they be restored to society so equipped. It is difficult to see how that can be done effectively if the people looking after these young offenders are allowed only 37/6d a week from the Central Fund and 32/6d a week from the various local authorities. That is one thing on which revision is needed and it is something which should be looked into.

The number of assaults on elderly members of our society throughout the country at present is a disgrace. Many people fear our courts are too lenient with people who are brought before them for this type of offence. The time has come when our laws should be seen to be more definitely on the side of the defenceless, the elderly and all upright citizens. People who trangress against the common law, more especially those who resort to crimes of violence, should be punished in a very definite way and if the penalties prescribed for the various offences are low they certainly should be brought up to modern standards without delay. It is very difficult to appreciate the very seemingly light fine both monetary and by way of small sentences, that people get for these regrettable crimes of violence. Throughout rural Ireland, especially, we have many elderly people living alone in remote areas and surely those people must be protected by the law of the land. When people who commit such crimes are caught they should certainly be dealt with in a severe way to ensure that the crimes will not be repeated.

I should like to refer to the Government's agricultural policy for which the present Minister for Finance must bear some of the responsibility. The agricultural policy of the Fianna Fáil Government has utterly failed to keep agricultural production up to the desired level. Consequently, family farm incomes are not kept in line with incomes obtaining in other sectors of the community. As a direct result of the Government's policy, or lack of agricultural policy, we have today in the country a reduction in the acreage, in the season just finished, of wheat, beet, oats, and potatoes. Added to that is the experience we had of the collapse, or reduction, in the price of cattle and sheep despite all the glib talk and the promises we got in the first eight months of this year about the increased prosperity that was facing the rural community as a direct result of the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement. The Government must immediately review their agricultural policy. The fact is that at least 30,000 farmers were forced to come to Dublin to make a public protest.

The number is growing every day.

They protested in this city and while anyone who saw the parade must admit it was properly and exceptionally well marshalled and carried out——

And completely unnecessary.

——we find the Minister for Justice describing it as mob law, mob rule, and what have you. The Minister now says that the whole thing is completely unnecessary; that it was unnecessary in the case of the milk producers who suffered imprisonment, or at least were remanded for some time. The NFA are still sitting out there after more than a month and very little, if any, Government action has been taken. Surely the Minister for Finance will agree that agricultural income has dropped over the past 12 months. In view of the fact that every other section of the community has had increases in their salaries, it is not right that the family farm income should be reduced. The rural population especially do not seem to appreciate the fact that in the towns and cities the father of the family is the breadwinner and the family live on his salary alone and they have to manage on that, but when you are considering the farmers of Ireland the income of the farmer is the family farm income and it depends to a great extent on the work and the ability of the farmer's wife and their children who from very tender years must join in and do their own jobs if the farm is to be run as a success.

That is the way the farms are working in the country to this day. Therefore, the average farm income over the country is something in the region of £7 a week. That represents a payment not only to the farmer but to the farmer's wife who must perform the duties of feeding pigs and fowl and turkeys which are a dead loss again this year. We are told that because of the laws of supply and demand the price of farm produce generally is altogether outside Government control and that farm incomes are dependent to a great extent on the laws of supply and demand.

Is it true or not?

If we are to accept that argument, can Senator Yeats or the Minister explain how this year we have 14 per cent fewer turkeys than last year. The average price so far this year is lower than the price for the corresponding period last year. It is obvious that the law of supply and demand acts both ways against family farming. It is no wonder we have a situation in this country in which farmers, whether they are milk producers or members of the NFA, are forced through dire circumstances to take time off from their holdings and stage protests and demonstrations in order to bring home the fact that they are losing money and that they cannot continue at that.

There are very few working farmers amongst them. From my county there is not a working farmer in the lot.

What does the Senator mean by a working farmer?

Farmers who work their land, not the kind you find on the road every day of the week.

Let us not go into that too deeply now.

Senators must realise that farmers are not——

He is referring to the Parliamentary Secretary's brother.

They are doing well in Wexford. They did very well last year.

I cannot speak for Wexford.

The Senator could come down to Wexford and see it for himself.

It is impossible to get a contract to grow an acre of barley. I should like to remind the House that the average acreage in my county is only 20 acres of land now.

Debate adjourned.
The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 20th December, 1966.
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