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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 1967

Vol. 62 No. 13

Auctioneers and House Agents Bill, 1966: Committee Stage.

Government amendment No. 1:
Before section 1 to insert the following new section:—
"(1) In this Act—
‘the Accountant' means the Accountant attached to the High Court by virtue of section 55 (1) of the Courts (Supplemental Provisions) Act, 1961;
‘bank' means a bank in which it is for the time being lawful for a trustee (unless expressly forbidden) to invest trust funds by placing them in an interest bearing deposit account;
‘client account' means a current or deposit account in the name of an auctioneer or house agent in the title of which the word `client' appears and which is kept in a bank at a branch in the State;
‘the Official Assignee' means the person who is for the time being the Official Assignee in Bankruptcy;
‘Principal Act' means the Auctioneers and House Agents Act, 1947.
(2) References in this Act to auctioneers shall be construed as referring only to persons required to be licensed as auctioneers under the Principal Act and references in this Act to house agents shall be construed as referring only to persons required to be licensed as house agents under the Principal Act.
(3) References in this Act to an account (being an account in a bank) shall, unless the context otherwise requires, include a reference to a deposit receipt.
(4) Save where the context otherwise requires, this Act shall be construed as applying only to transactions carried out by an auctioneer or house agent in his capacity as auctioneer or house agent."

The Chair suggests that amendments Nos. 1 and 9 be taken together.

At the outset since the Government amendments are fairly extensive, perhaps the House will allow me to make a brief reference to the amendments as a whole. The reason for the number of amendments and their detail is that since the Second Reading debate I have had the benefit of the views of the Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association whose assistance I have already publicly acknowledged, and also the views of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors who sent me detailed and very helpful comments.

On the first amendment before the House the changes are for the most part matters of detail. We are now in effect in the new section defining matters which were undefined in the Bill as it stood. The definition of "bank" is now included so that there may be no argument as to what in fact a "bank" means in the context of the Bill. In effect, the new section is an elaboration of what was there, and the definition of terms which were there.

I welcome the wider definitions which clear the position to a great extent. However, I feel that I could perhaps withdraw amendment No. 9 seeing that it will be more-or-less out of context under the new amendment. As far as section 1 is concerned, I have no observation other than to welcome the improvement.

New section agreed to.

The acceptance of this amendment means the deletion of section 1 of the Bill.

Section 1 deleted.

SECTION 2.

Government amendment No. 2:
In line 20, to delete "reference in section 14 (d) (ii)" and substitute "reference in section 14 (d) (ii) and section 15 (3) (b)".

This is a drafting amendment and it does not present any difficulty.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.

I move amendment No. 3:

In subsection (2), line 7, to delete "three" and substitute "six".

This is an amendment to which the Minister will perhaps agree.

I have looked at this amendment since it was submitted by Senator O'Quigley. We can accept it.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 4, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
Government amendment No. 4:
Before section 5 to insert the following new section:—
(1) (a) Every auctioneer and every house agent shall open and keep a client account and may, if he thinks fit, open and keep more than one client account.
(b) An auctioneer or house agent who keeps more than one client account shall keep all such accounts at the same bank unless the District Court, for special reasons, otherwise permits.
(2) When an auctioneer or house agent receives money for a client, he shall, without unnecessary delay, pay it into a client account unless the money—
(a) is received in the form of cash and is paid without unnecessary delay in cash to the client;
(b) is received in the form of a cheque or other negotiable instrument which is endorsed over and delivered without unnecessary delay to the client;
(c) is paid without unnecessary delay into a separate banking account in the name of the client or some person (not being the auctioneer or house agent or a partner, employee or agent of the auctioneer or house agent) named by the client or into a joint banking account in the names of the auctioneer and the client; or
(d) invested by him at the written request and for the benefit of the client, in a manner in which it is for the time being lawful for a trustee (unless expressly forbidden) to invest trust funds.
(3) Where an auctioneer or house agent holds or receives a cheque or draft which includes money for a client, he shall, if practicable, apportion the cheque or draft and pay into the appropriate client account the portion representing the money for the client as if he had received a separate cheque for that amount and, if such apportionment is not practicable, he shall pay the cheque or draft in full into the client account and, where he has so paid the cheque or draft in full into the client account, he may withdraw therefrom the money that is not money for a client.
(4) No payment other than money for a client shall be made into a client account save such payment as is authorised to be made under subsection (3) or is necessary in order to open or maintain the account or to replace any sum drawn from it by mistake or accident.
(5) Money shall not be withdrawn by an auctioneer or house agent from a client account unless—
(a) it is properly required for a payment to or on behalf of a client whose money has been paid into that account or for or towards a refund of money paid by way of deposit by a purchaser or intending purchaser of property sold or offered for sale on behalf of a client where the client has acquired no right to the money or,
(b) it is properly required for or towards payment of fees or commission due to the auctioneer or house agent by a client whose money had been paid into that account, or for or towards reimbursement of expenses incurred by the auctioneer or house agent in connection with the client's business or of money paid to a client by the auctioneer or house agent out of his own funds (either in the circumstances specified in subsection (10) (a) or otherwise to facilitate prompt payment of the client), or it is a withdrawal authorised by subsection (3).
(6) A withdrawal under subsection (5) (b) shall be made by either—
(i) a cheque drawn in favour of the auctioneer or house agent, or
(ii) a transfer to a bank account (not being a client account) in the name of the auctioneer or house agent.
(7) Where an auctioneer or house agent withdraws money from a client account—
(a) unless the withdrawal is being made by a cheque drawn in favour of a client or of a person who has made a deposit in the circumstances specified in subsection (10) (b), the auctioneer or house agent shall endorse on the cheque, withdrawal docket or draft requisition form the words `Fees in respect of' or the words `Outlay in respect of' or (where a payment is being made to a third party) the words `On behalf of' or (in any case) such other words as will explain the nature of the withdrawal, followed in every case by the name of the client;
(b) he shall preserve the cheque or draft when returned by the bank for as long as he is required by section 4 to preserve the corresponding account.
(8) (a) Money withdrawn from a client account for or in respect of a client shall not exceed the total of the moneys held for the time being in that account on account of that client.
(b) Money withdrawn from a client account for or towards reimbursement of money paid to a client by the auctioneer or house agent out of his own funds shall not exceed the amount paid to the auctioneer or house agent in respect of the corresponding transaction on behalf of that client and properly available in the client account for the purposes of such reimbursement.
(c) Money withdrawn from a client account for or towards a refund of a deposit shall not exceed the amount paid into the account in respect of such deposit and properly available in the client account for the purposes of such refund.
(9) (a) If it appears to the Minister for Justice that the provisions of this section are inadequate to prevent the negligent or fraudulent handling of money for a client or are otherwise insufficient to protect the interests of clients and that other provisions (either in substitution for or in addition to the existing provisions or any of them) governing the payment of money into and the withdrawal of money from client accounts would be in the public interest, he may make regulations incorporating such other provisions.
(b) Regulations under paragraph (a) may provide that, in circumstances specified in the regulations, being circumstances in which an auctioneer or house agent is required by or under this section to pay money into a client account, the auctioneer or house agent shall either—
(i) pay the money into an interest bearing client account and pay the interest to the client or other person to whom the money belongs, or
(ii) pay to the client or other person to whom the money belongs the sum equivalent to the interest that would have been earned if the money had been paid into such an account.
(c) Regulations under this subsection shall not come into operation until a period of not less than one month has elapsed from the date on which they were made.
(d) Every regulation made under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling the regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which the House has sat after the regulation is laid before it, the regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to anything previously done thereunder.
(10) For the purposes of subsections (1) to (4) references to money for a client include—
(a) references to money paid to an auctioneer or house agent, being all or part of the purchase-price of property sold by him for a client or a payment otherwise intended for a client, where the auctioneer or house agent, in anticipation of the receipt of such money, has out of his own funds already paid the client, and
(b) references to money paid to an auctioneer or house agent by way of deposit by a purchaser or intending purchaser of property sold or offered for sale on behalf of a client where the client has acquired no right to the money."

I should like to ask the House to accept a correction to the text of this amendment. In subsection (2) paragraph (c) "or house agent" should have gone in after "auctioneer". This keeps the section right. It is a slip in my amendment and the correction is essential when we read the whole section.

Paragraph (c) refers to money which "is paid without unnecessary delay into a separate banking account in the name of the client or some person (not being the auctioneer or house agent or a partner, employee or agent of the auctioneer or house agent)...." Does that cover amendment No. 5 in the name of Senator O'Quigley?

That is right. I was going to ask to have the two taken together.

Does subsection (5) (b) meet the case of auctioneers who have the practice of giving advances to people in respect of conacre lettings? Very often we find conacre set in the months of February and March and the auctioneer usually does not collect the money for this conacre until perhaps October or November. Does subsection (5) (b) meet this type of transaction?

It is intended to meet any reasonable case of that kind.

It meets common practice.

Yes. On the amendment as a whole, perhaps I should explain that there is no basic change between the section which is being deleted and this amendment. There is no change in the principle of the section. The drafting is better but there is no great change.

Does subsection (9) (b) cover the case envisaged in amendment No. 6 in the name of Senator O'Quigley?

It goes a long way towards it. One of the reasons why we included subsection (9) (b) was to meet Senator O'Quigley's suggestion in his amendment. We could not go the whole way to meet him because if we did it would mean hardship for auctioneers. They would have to over-itemise and keep numerous small accounts in respect of which the interest would amount only to some shillings. Our amendment goes some of the way in the direction suggested by Senator O'Quigley. Possibly in some cases significant sums may be involved but in most cases the amounts would be very small.

Amendment as amended agreed to.
Section 5 deleted.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.
Amendment No. 6 not moved.
Section 6 agreed to.
NEW SECTIONS.
Government amendment No. 7:
Before section 7 to insert the following new section:—
(1) (a) Where an auctioneer or house agent is adjudicated a bankrupt or where, being an arranging debtor, he vests his estate in the Official Assignee for realisation and distribution amongst his creditors, then, notwithstanding anything contained in section 6 or in any other enactment, there shall vest in the Official Assignee the sum to the credit of every client account kept by that auctioneer or house agent;
(b) Where an auctioneer or house agent files a petition for arrangement but does not vest his estate in the Official Assignee, the creditors who are clients, or a section thereof (being at least three-fifths in number and value of those who, as clients, have proved debts to the amount of £20) may apply to a judge of the High Court for the time being exercising jurisdiction in bankruptcy matters for an order vesting in the Official Assignee the sum to the credit of every client account kept by the auctioneer or house agent, and the judge may, if he thinks it proper to do so and the Official Assignee consents, make such an order, which shall have effect accordingly.
(2) Upon a vesting under subsection (1) (whether by virtue of paragraph (a) thereof or of an order under paragraph (b) thereof) in the Official Assignee—
(a) the rights of creditors against the deposit maintained in the High Court shall vest in him and no order shall thereafter be made under section 15 of the Principal Act in relation to the deposit;
(b) he shall notify the Accountant of the vesting;
(c) notwithstanding that an order in respect of any such client account may have been made under section 10, a banking company shall be entitled to pay over to him the sum to the credit of that account and shall pay over that sum to him upon demand by him;
(d) he shall proceed to administer the client account or accounts for the benefit of the clients according to the law of bankruptcy.
(3) All enactments, rules of law, orders, regulations and other instruments governing the administration of a bankrupt's estate shall, in so far as they are capable of being applied, apply to an administration under subsection (2) in like manner as they apply in the case of an administration in bankruptcy.
(4) The administration under subsection (2) of a client account by the Official Assignee shall for all purposes be deemed to be business assigned to the Office of the Official Assignee in Bankruptcy and transacted therein.

At the present moment, if an auctioneer were to go bankrupt, all his property, including, in the normal course, money he had received for clients, would vest in the Official Assignee in Bankruptcy. That is the ordinary bankruptcy law. However, because we are now providing that clients' money is to be kept in a separate account designated as a client account, the legal position would be that the funds in such an account would be trust funds, and as trust funds do not vest in the Official Assignee, the funds in a client account would not vest in him.

However, under existing law the Official Assignee could take over control of the funds if the Court were to appoint him trustee in place of the auctioneer. In that event, he would be acting only as a trustee and, strictly speaking, not in his official capacity as Official Assignee. This is an arrangement that has worked reasonably well in relation to solicitors and it was the arrangement that was envisaged in the Bill as introduced. A specific reference is made to it in section 7 (4) of the Bill as introduced.

Since the publication of the Bill, I received some objections from auctioneers to that arrangement and it was suggested to me that the Official Assignee should not be appointed at all in these cases. This surprised me at first, since it is clearly in the interests of all the creditors, whether they be creditors in relation to an auctioneering transaction or otherwise, that the one person should be empowered to investigate all the bankrupt's affairs. It transpired, however, that the objection was not an objection of principle and that what was at issue was that it was felt that the fees payable to the Official Assignee in such cases were or might be too high. Taking the present Fees Order as it would apply in these cases if we made no change, I felt I had to concede that, in certain cases, the fees could bear rather heavily on clients. Accordingly, I undertook to review them and I am doing so at the moment. On that basis the initial objection of the auctioneers to the appointment of the Official Assignee in these cases has been withdrawn.

For my part, my examination of the matter convinced me more than ever that it is not only desirable but essential for the proper safeguarding of the legitimate interests of all those who are creditors that the client accounts, as well as the ordinary estate of the auctioneer, should be under the control of the Official Assignee. This being so, the logical way of dealing with it is to vest the accounts in him, just as the ordinary estate vests in him in a bankruptcy case, and to provide that he should have exactly the same duties and powers as in an ordinary bankruptcy so that he may be in a position to discharge his obligations properly.

The amendment provides accordingly.

I agree with the amendment and with the section. The Minister has perhaps taken a new step as far as this type of legislation is concerned and it will be interesting to see if it works out well, as we hope it will.

If there was not sufficient money in the client's account to meet claims of all kinds, is the Official Assignee then to distribute the account?

That is his purpose.

Some clients' accounts might not be——

The next section covers the point made by the Senator.

Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 8:
Before section 7 to insert the following new section:—
"(1) Where—
(a) an auctioneer or house agent is adjudicated a bankcrupt, files a petition for arrangement, executes a deed of arrangement (within the meaning of section 4 of the Deeds of Arrangement Act, 1887) or dies insolvent, or
(b) a company licensed as an auctioneer or house agent is insolvent and being wound up,
the Official Assignee (in a case where section —**applies), the liquidator (in the case of an insolvent company) or any interested person (in any other case) may apply to the High Court by motion for an order under subsection (2).
(2) (a) The High Court, on application made to it under subsection (1), may make an order directing that—
(i) the costs, fees and expenses incurred by or payable to the Official Assignee in connection with the client account or (as may be appropriate) such costs and expenses in connection with the client account of the liquidator or other interested person as the court may allow, and
(ii) the amount of any deficiency in a client account,
shall, to such extent as the money available allows, be paid or made good by the Accountant either out of the deposit maintained in the High Court under the Principal Act, or, in a case where the deposit consists of a guarantee bond, from money made available by the assurance company concerned on foot of the bond; and, for the purpose of enabling the Accountant to comply with such direction, the order or a further order may direct, in a case where the deposit consists of securities, the sale by the Accountant of such securities (or of as much thereof as may be necessary) and, in a case where the deposit consists of a guarantee bond and notice of the application has been served on the assurance company concerned, the payment by the assurance company of the amount of the bond (or of as much thereof as may be necessary): provided, however, that such order shall have effect subject to the provisions of any order previously made in relation to the deposit under section 15 (1) or section (15) (2) of the Principal Act unless the High Court directs otherwise.
(b) Where there is a deficiency in more than one client account, the amount available from the deposit towards making good the deficiencies may be paid over under paragraph (a) without appointment between the client accounts.
(c) The High Court, when making an order under this subsection directing the sale of securities, may in the same order direct the sale of all such securities maintained as a deposit in the High Court by the auctioneer or house agent and the transfer to the Official Assignee, for the benefit of the ordinary creditors, of any surplus that may remain after the payment of any costs, fees and expenses and the making good of any deficiency in a client account.
(d) The provisions of section 15 (3) of the Principal Act shall apply to an order under this subsection.
(3) Where—
(a) (i) an auctioneer or house agent is adjudicated a bankrupt, files a petition for arrangement, executes a deed of arrangement (within the meaning of section 4 of the Deeds or Arrangement Act, 1887) or dies insolvent, or
(ii) a company licensed as an auctioneer or house agent is insolvent and being wound up, and
(b) there is, notwithstanding the addition of the sum paid over under subsection (2), a deficiency in the client account or accounts,
then, notwithstanding any rule of law to the contrary, the sum to the credit of the said client account or, where the auctioneer or house agent has kept two or more client accounts, the total of the sums to the credit of those accounts, shall (after the addition thereto of the sum paid over under subsection (2)) be divisible proportionately amongst the clients of the auctioneer or house agent according to the respective sums received by the auctioneer or house agent in the course of his business on behalf of his clients and remaining due by him to them.
(4) A person, other than the Official Assignee, who is entitled and proposes to apply to the High Court under subsection (1) may before such application and by motion ex parte apply to the Court for an order prohibiting the payment of any money out of the deposit or, in a case where the deposit consists of a guarantee bond, from money made available by the assurance company concerned on foot of the bond, pending the hearing of the application under subsection (1), and the Court may, if it thinks fit, order accordingly.
(5) For the purpose of this section a person who has paid money to an auctioneer or house agent by way of deposit in the circumstances specified in section 5 (10) (b) shall, where the client has not acquired a right to the money, be deemed to be a client on whose behalf the auctioneer or house agent has received the money."

This amendment is, in part, consequential on the preceding one but it also sets out, in some more detail than is provided in the existing section 7, the procedure to be adopted in order to get money from the deposit in the event of bankruptcy. It also makes it quite clear—this is probably the existing law but it is no harm to spell it out—that in a case where the deposit is more than sufficient to cover the deficiency in a client account, the costs connected with the application will be a charge against the deposit and not deducted from what is due to clients. Otherwise, we would have the situation that, even though the deposit is there to protect clients against loss, we could have money uncalled on in the deposit while the clients were being paid less than what was due to them.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 9 not moved.

The acceptance of amendments Nos. 7 and 8 involves the deletion of section 7.

Section 7 deleted.

Sections 8 to 10, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Government amendment No. 10:
In page 6, lines 25 and 43, to delete "three months" and substitute "six months".

The section as it stands requires that an accountant's certificate when presented to the court must not be more than three months out of date. I had representations that a three-month interval would be too short. In criticising the period the objectors stressed that while appreciating that an out of date certificate loses much of its value, some reasonable period must be specified. A period of six months was suggested.

What we are seeking to achieve in the amendment is that there will be reasonable time but not too much. The Bill as introduced had a period of three months with the proviso that it could be extended by Ministerial Order. I felt we should give the three month period a trial but the representations made to me led me to the conclusion that such a period would be inadequate. I, therefore, recommend a period of six months.

The amendment will facilitate those who operate on the basis of a year ending on 31st December. It means they will not have to change their accounts to 31st March.

Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 11:
In page 6, to delete lines 49 to 56, and in page 7, to delete lines 1 to 7, and substitute the following:
"(b) For the purposes of this subsection, business carried on before the day of the coming into operation of the said provisions shall be disregarded and where business has been so carried on that day shall be regarded as the day of commencement of business.
(c) Where the applicant has not carried on business throughout the period specified in paragraph (a) as the period to which the certificate should relate, the provisions of that paragraph shall be sufficiently complied with if the certificate relates to part of the period (being the part during which business was carried on) and it is proved to the satisfaction of the District Justice that business was not carried on except during that part of the period."

This is purely a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 12:
In page 7, between lines 7 and 8 to insert the following new paragraph:
"(c) In this subsection references to the business of auctioneer and to the business of house agent shall be construed as referring only to business to carry on which the applicant is required to be licensed under this Act."

This is another drafting amendment. The point dealt with has already been covered in the definition section but it is necessary to repeat it here as the subsection forms part of the 1947 Act. The purpose of the amendment is to relate this back to the 1947 Act.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 7, to delete lines 41 to 55 inclusive.

We have met what I think is the spirit of this amendment in the Government amendment extending the three month period to six months. Substantially the same point is being made in this amendment in Senator O'Quigley's name.

In the circumstances it can be withdrawn.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Government amendment No. 14:
In page 7, line 55, to add the following to the section:
"(7) (a) The Minister may make regulations prescribing—
(i) the nature and extent of the examination to be made by an accountant of the books and accounts of an auctioneer or house agent and of any other relevant documents with a view to the giving of a certificate for the purposes of subsection (3), and
(ii) the form of such certificate.
(b) Notwithstanding that an auctioneer or house agent has, during the period to be covered by a certificate required for the purposes of subsection (3), complied with the relevant provisions of the Auctioneers and House Agents Act, 1967, an accountant shall not issue a certificate for the purposes of that subsection if at the time of his examination it appears to him that the auctioneer or house agent is not solvent."

The main point in this amendment is the proposal that the Minister may by regulation prescribe the nature and extent of the examination to be made by an accountant.

Originally, I felt that the question of the nature and extent of the accountant's examination could be left to be decided in accordance with recognised practices amongst accountants. Obviously an accountant cannot check everything. Equally obviously, a reputable accountant will carry out a certain minimum of test-checks, spot-checks or whatever one wishes to call them.

On further consideration, however, I came to the conclusion that that was not really sufficient in the present context. We are dealing here, not with the usual, conventional type of accountant's certificate, but with a very special type of certificate required to be presented to a Court for a particular statutory purpose. I think it is a distinct possibility that difficulties of interpretation might arise: occasionally, perhaps, we might have accountants doing only a very casual kind of check but, what I would think may be a more practical problem, we might have some accountants feeling that, for a statutory certificate of this kind, something close to a complete check of every transaction might be needed.

I feel that is quite reasonable.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 11, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Subsection (5) reads:

In this section "accountant" means a person (not being the applicant or a partner or employee of the applicant) possessing such qualifications (which may be described by reference to membership of a professional organisation) as may be prescribed, for the purposes of this section, by order of the Minister.

We feel that this is perhaps a duplication of the service. I feel it would be unfair of the House if it were now to include this particular subsection which would, in fact, mean that a chartered accountant would have to get a special certificate of competency from the Minister for Justice to examine the books of auctioneers and if he were to work for the ordinary companies he would have to have a certificate of competency from the Minister for Industry and Commerce under section 162 of the Companies Act, 1963. This is something that is completely unnecessary and as the Minister in the last amendment got power to prescribe exactly the type of certificate he wants we should, I feel, delete this subsection. At least, I would ask the Minister to look at it before Report Stage to ensure that the accountants will not be burdened with having to go to a different Department to take on every second job. I feel that section 162 of the Companies Act, 1963 should meet the Minister's case in this regard. I would ask the Minister to look at this more closely before Report Stage and see if subsection (5) could be deleted.

From the point of view of the professional bodies concerned, the accountants and auctioneers, I think this is adequate. However, I shall have a look at it between now and Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
Government amendment No. 15:
Before section 12, to insert the following new section:—
"This Act, other than sections 1 to 4, section 10, this section and section 12, shall not apply or have effect in relation to the auctioning in a public market of vegetables, potatoes, fruit, flowers, poultry, eggs or other primary products (not including horses, cattle, sheep or pigs) of agriculture or horticulture."

This amendment arises from representations made to me on behalf of the auctioneers in the Dublin Corporation Fruit and Vegetable Market.

Their problem is, first of all, that, at a busy time, any one of them may have perhaps 50 or more clients supplying produce for sale on a particular day and, at the same time, the produce is likely to be sold to several times that number of customers. Accordingly, there can be a very big number of relatively small transactions. However, an even more serious problem for those concerned is that only a small proportion of the produce on any particular day may be auctioned, the rest being disposed of in private sales on a commission basis. Any given supplier may have perhaps 10 per cent of his produce auctioned and the rest sold privately by the auctioneer; conversely, any given customer, if as is usual he is a shopkeeper buying for re-sale, is liable to buy some produce at the auction and to buy more later, privately, from the auctioneer. Neither the producer nor the auctioneer nor the customer is concerned with whether business was transacted in the auction or privately: the producer is concerned with what he gets for his consignment and the purchaser—the shopkeeper—pays for the day's purchases in a single payment. It has been urged on me, and I may say that I accept it, that it would be practically impossible and that it is quite unnecessary in this kind of market to segregate auction transactions from others and to subject the auction part of the business to the requirement of keeping special client accounts. Accordingly I recommend this amendment.

This amendment is quite reasonable and, indeed, it represents the very practical attitude of the Minister right through this Bill. The co-operation he has given and received especially in relation to the people directly concerned, the auctioneers, is certainly to be commended and I think the legislation will be all the better for that. This particular section is a very wise one because the difficulty in the Bill if it were left in would be that it would be impossible to keep accounts especially in the Dublin markets. However, I should like to ask the Minister if he thinks that two months is adequate for the auctioneers to get their books and the new system that some of them must embark on in line and if he is satisfied that this is a fair time limit.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are on the amendment and not on the section.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 12, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

What Senator McDonald said is relative to section 12. I will have a look at that certainly between now and Report Stage and I will discuss it with the association concerned. We feel at the moment it should be enough and it avoids the need for a commencement order at a later date but I will discuss it with the administrators between now and Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.

I gave certain guarantees to Senator McDonald in regard to looking into matters between now and Report Stage but I had been thinking in the context of Report Stage being the last chance in the Seanad. I shall have ample time to look into those matters during the various stages of debate in the Dáil, which puts a different perspective on the whole thing. I will certainly look at the matters Senator McDonald has dealt with between now and Committee Stage in the Dáil and have further discussions with the professional bodies concerned and I can bring in any appropriate amendments at Committee Stage in the Dáil so perhaps the House might allow me Report Stage now.

It may seem unreasonable but my colleagues and I would like to have a look at the Bill in the light of the many amendments which the Minister has effected and we would prefer if it could be left over until next week.

This day week.

Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 1st March 1967.
The Seanad adjourned at 8.20 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday the 1st March, 1967.
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