Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Mar 1968

Vol. 64 No. 12

Death of Minister. - Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) (Amendment) Bill, 1967: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Finance (Mr. Haughey)

At present, pensions under the Houses of the Oireachtas (Members) Pensions Scheme can be paid to former Members only. The purpose of this Bill is to enable the scheme to be amended so that pensions can also be paid to their widows and children. In addition, it will allow the Minister for Finance to make such grants as he thinks proper from the Exchequer to the pension fund which is currently financed solely by the contributions of the Members.

As soon as this Bill is enacted, it is intended to introduce a motion in both Houses, setting forth the conditions on which pensions may be granted to the widows and children of deceased Members and the amounts which will be payable. It is also the intention to include in the motion provision for an improvement in the pensions payable to Members of the scheme themselves.

The necessity for the payment of grants to the fund is due to the fact that the costs of the scheme, including the proposed amendments, cannot be met by the Members' contributions and it is intended that these grants should make up the difference. I should like to stress, however, as I did in the Dáil, that the power to pay grants is not to be taken as committing the Exchequer to making payments towards any further changes that may be made from time to time in the scheme. Any further improvements in the scheme will have to be examined separately and the fact that financial assistance will be given to cover the changes now proposed is not a guarantee that State grants will be available to cover future changes. It is not possible to say how much will be required by way of subsidy until the costs of the improvements have been actuarially investigated. It is intended to have such an investigation carried out in due course: but in the meantime it is proposed to give the fund a grant of £12,000 in the coming year. This should be sufficient to keep the fund viable until the actuary's report has been received.

It is hoped to have 1st April next as the commencement date for the payment of widows' and orphans' pensions under the scheme and of the improved pensions for Members.

I recommend the Bill to the House for its approval.

Mr. O'Quigley

I think the House will have little difficulty in accepting this Bill. There is need for some kind of protection for widows and orphans throughout the country, something which is, indeed, recognised by all of us, and not less indeed for widows and orphans of Members of the Oireachtas. I do not suppose that the pensions to be paid under this extended scheme will do more than alleviate hardship but such as it is this Bill is to be welcomed. Am I right in thinking that this particular Bill is providing for a once-for-all grant or is it a grant that will be repayable in time?

Mr. Haughey

It is an outright grant, not necessarily a once-for-all payment. It is just to carry it through next year.

Mr. O'Quigley

I would be happier if it was even thought it might involve higher contributions from the Members of the Oireachtas. That is a view which might not be shared by other Members of the Oireachtas but until such time as we are in a position to introduce generally for people who are not at present covered for widows' and orphans' benefits—and there are vast areas where people are not—I for my part would prefer to see Members of the Oireachtas, if their widows and orphans are to participate, contribute entirely to the scheme themselves. This is, as the Minister indicates, one grant for the moment and, in any event, whether it be so or not as we are all aware, in the light of recent events, it is a necessary measure and I am pleased that the Minister has been able to see his way to bring it in.

Mr. Murphy

I welcome this Bill. The Minister said—and it is no harm to repeat it—that up to now the pension scheme for Members of the Oireachtas has been wholly maintained by contributions from Members of the Oireachtas. We have come to realise and appreciate that it is impossible from those resources to adequately provide for widows and orphans of deceased Members.

I am glad the Minister has taken the step to introduce this Bill and that he has given us an undertaking that he will put a scheme into operation. There is one small point which I should like to raise as to the date from which it operates. The Minister says that it is hoped to have the 1st April next as the commencement date for the payment of widows' and orphans' pensions under the scheme of improved pensions for Members. I would hope that the Minister would see his way to apply the widows' and orphans' pensions scheme to the widows and orphans of Deputies who were elected to this Dáil and that the benefits will operate from the date of the death of Deputies. We recognise that something needs to be done and that hardship exists and I hope the Minister will see his way to operate the benefits from the date of the death of Deputies.

Mr. Haughey

I am grateful to the House for the reception Senators have given this measure which I think is necessary and desirable. We will have another opportunity of discussing the detailed provisions when the Motion for the actual amendment comes before us.

This particular measure just gives us statutory authority to amend the scheme and to make some small contribution from the Exchequer. It was my intention that payment of the pensions for widows and orphans should commence on the 1st April next but, of course, it will cover all Deputies who themselves participated in the scheme. Where a Deputy did not participate in the scheme then his widow and orphans will not be covered. However, can we have further discussion on the commencement date when the motion itself comes before us.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill considered in Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.