Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jun 1972

Vol. 73 No. 1

Local Elections Bill, 1972: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Beartaítear leis an mBille seo na toghcháin áitiúla a chur ar athló ar feadh bliana go dtí Meitheamh, 1973. Beartaítear, freisin, mír 5 den Acht Toghcháin, 1963, a leasú sa chaoi nach mbeidh sé ceadaithe as seo amach duine a chlárú mar togthóir rialtais áitiúil ach amháin san áit a mbíonn gnáthchónaí air. Tá dícháilíochtaí áirithe a bhaineann le ballraíocht d'udaráis áitiúla á chur ar cheal comh maith. Siad na dícháilíochtaí atá i gceist ná iad san a éiríonn as chúnamh poiblí a bheith ag fáil ag duine nó as é a bheith ina chlisiúnach.

The Government's decision to seek postponement of the local elections for a period of one year was based on two considerations. In the first place legislation is being prepared to effect certain reforms in the local government system arising from the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation and it is clear that these changes could not be implemented in time to permit the holding of local elections at the appointed time, that is, during the month of June this year.

Secondly, it was considered undesirable that local elections should be held on a date which would be so close to the polling day appointed for the referendum in relation to membership of the European Communities. While Senators may regret the necessity to postpone the local elections I am sure they will agree that this was the proper course to take in the circumstances. The Bill provides that local elections will be held in June, 1973 and every fifth year thereafter and extends the terms of office of existing members of local authorities accordingly. Minor consequential arrangements are made in relation to appointment of school attendance committees and in relation to certain meetings of vocational education committees.

Section 1 of the Bill provides that a person shall be entitled to be registered as a local government elector in a local electoral area if he has reached the age of 21 years and is ordinarily resident in that area. In future, therefore, nobody may be registered more than once as a local government elector. I am sure the Seanad will agree that this last vestige of the property qualification for the local government vote should be removed before the next local elections are held.

The reference to 21 years merely repeats the existing provision in regard to age and is repeated here solely for reasons connected with drafting. As announced previously it is proposed to hold a referendum on the voting age for Dáil and presidential elections and referenda in the autumn. If the people at this referendum approve of the reduction of the voting age for Dáil and presidential elections to 18 years legislation will be introduced to make a similar reduction in the voting age for local elections. The Government's position is that they favour votes at 18 for all elections but consider that the voting age for local elections should not be reduced until the people have given their decision in relation to Dáil and presidential elections. On this basis, if the proposal is approved by the people, it may be expected that the names of the 18 to 21 year old voters will be on the register coming into force in April next and that they will be able to vote at the local elections in June, 1973. The necessary amendment of the Constitution Bill was introduced in the Dáil this morning.

This Bill also removes the disqualification for membership of local authorities on the grounds of being a bankrupt or of having received general assistance during the preceding 12 months. These disqualifications are contained in the Local Government (Application of Enactments) Order, 1898, and are considered to be out of touch with current thinking, which is that the electorate is entitled to the widest choice possible in selecting its representatives. I am sure Senators will agree that these disqualifications should be removed before the next local elections are held.

I recommend the Bill to the House.

This is a Bill which, in the main, gives effect to the Minister's earlier announcement regarding the postponement of the inevitable—that is the postponement of the local elections for 12 months from June of this year until, as the Parliamentary Secretary has said in his opening remarks, June, 1973.

The danger I see in a course such as this—this is the third time such a thing has happened in relation to the last two local elections—is that it has resulted, on each occasion on which it has happened, in a downgrading of the status of local authorities. This results in a feeling among the general public that local authorities must not be all that important if the Houses of the Oireachtas see fit to postpone the elections for membership of those authorities. This is the main fear which will be expressed by Members of this House, or of the other House, in speaking on this Bill.

This occurs at a time in the development of our State when all of our democratic institutions need every support which can be afforded to them by those in public life, and their importance and their status is in need of being unheld and emphasised. For that reason it is, perhaps, unfortunate that the Minister for Local Government, through his emissary here today—his Parliamentary Secretary— has asked us to accept a Bill which will postpone the elections to those great democratic institutions which have given such sterling service to the State since its inception. We all know —and many of us have served or are still serving on local authorities—of the very great contribution which they make to the way in which this State is run and has been run. It would be unfortunate if the feeling were to get abroad that we, in the Houses of the Oireachtas, cared so little for them that we were prepared lightly to postpone the very important business of giving the general public the opportunity of deciding who should be the members of the local authority for their area. It is no harm to remind the House that originally the elections for local authorities took place every three years. Some considerable time ago that was extended to five years. In my opinion, three years is probably too short a period in which to ask anybody to serve as a member of a local authority.

In 1965, a Bill, somewhat similar to this, was introduced in the Oireachtas, which postponed for a period of 12 months the elections which were due that year. Before that period of 12 months had elapsed another Bill was introduced postponing for a further 12 months the local elections, which were scheduled belatedly for 1966. Now the following elections, which should take place five years after the local elections of 1967, if this Bill is agreed to, are to be postponed for a further period of 12 months.

How are we to be sure, how are members of local authorities to be sure, how are the administrative staff of local authorities and, most important, how are the general public to feel happy in their minds that, if this Bill is agreed to, the local elections which they would like to see taking place, will in fact take place in 12 months time? We all know that there are at least two, and probably three, further local government Bills which will be brought before the Houses of the Oireachtas during the next 12 months. Any of those will give the Minister an opportunity of further postponing the democratic process of allowing the general public to excercise their franchise and elect members to the local authorities.

In his opening remarks the Parliamentary Secretary said—and indeed the explanatory memorandum also says —that this Bill will have the effect of postponing the elections until June, 1973. I cannot find anywhere in the few short sections of the Bill any mention of the month June. The Bill itself says that the election should be held in the year 1973 and quinquennially thereafter. I should be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary, in his reply, would explain to the House how we can take it as being very definite, from the wording of this Bill, that the elections will take place in June. My reading of the Bill is that the elections could take place in November or December of 1973. Perhaps the explanation is in the fact that the elections of 1967 took place in the month of June, probably on this day—28th June, 1967. Perhaps that is the reason the Parliamentary Secretary can feel so sure that June, 1973, is the date on which the postponed elections might now take place.

I have serious doubts as to whether those elections will take place in that month. The Parliamentary Secretary gave as one of the two main reasons for the postponement the fact that the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation envisaged major changes in the structure of local authorities and that legislation was now being drafted to give effect to some, if not all, of these changes. I do not believe that half of the changes which were suggested in the White Paper are to be given effect to in one piece of legislation, which will obviously be of a very controversial nature. I do not believe that that legislation will be drafted and will have passed through Dáil and Seanad Éireann and be signed by the President in time to allow the local elections to take place, even 12 months from today.

I am quite sure that when the Parliamentary Secretary rises to reply he will disagree with me. I hope sincerely that the Parliamentary Secretary will be the person to be proved right. It would be very wrong if he or his Minister has to come back to this House within the next 12 months to seek a further extension of the period. Certainly, there has been no sign yet of the piece of legislation which might be termed the "child" of the White Paper.

The second reason given by the Parliamentary Secretary for the postponement is that it would be undesirable to have held the local elections this year on a date which was so close to the date of the referendum in connection with this country's entry into the EEC. It was therefore suggested to postpone it for 12 months from this month. Let us consider what the Members of this House and of the other House and everyone involved in public life face in that 12-month period. As we all know, there is a by-election pending in one of the southern counties. There is a referendum to take place in the autumn on whether or not people of 18 and over should be entitled to vote in Dáil elections. Within the next 12 months it is almost certain that a general election will take place. According to the Department of the Taoiseach, the presidential election will take place some time between April and June of 1973.

Yet the second reason for postponing the local elections from this year was that it would be undesirable to hold them on a date so near to the referendum. Instead, they are to be held in a year in which we shall have, in all probability, four other occasions when we as public representatives and politicians will have to go to the hustings. It does not seem to me to be a very valid reason for postponing the elections in 1972—a year in which there was only one other occasion on which the public were asked to cast their votes—and decide to hold them in a 12-month period in which there will be four other such occasions.

It is probably much more likely that it was not unacceptable to the Government, per se, but unacceptable to the political party which at present form the Government, that the local elections would be held in June, 1972, at a time when their stock in the country and their reputation on local authorities is not, to put it mildly, at the highest. In addition, it would be at a time when their performance, if those elections had been held, might not be as politically advantageous to them as would otherwise have been the case. I suggest to the House that the reason we are being asked today to postpone for a further period of 12 months the local elections for the Twenty-six Counties is because it is not at present politically suitable to the Fianna Fáil Party to go before the electorate.

In addition, there are constant and persistent rumours from various parts of the country that certain members of local authorities, inevitably—probably by coincidence—being members of the Fianna Fáil Party, have in their possession draft schemes to revise the electoral areas for the local authorities; in other words, to revise the many constituencies which go to form the local authority area. Before we have another local authority election one of the things we will see is the redrawing of many of these local electoral areas throughout the country. This will not be done to enhance the prospect of those candidates who do not happen to possess a cumann card.

I want to turn now to what I regard as the most serious fault of this Bill. That is contained in section 1 where it is outlined that

any person who has reached the age of 21 years and over shall be entitled to vote in local authority elections.

Recently the Government have reluctantly agreed to the long standing proposals of other political parties that the vote at 18 should, if possible, be extended to the public. As an addition to the Parliamentary Secretary's script, he said that the Bill to allow the referendum on this to take place was apparently introduced into the Dáil only this morning.

There is no need to hold a referendum to extend to those of 18 to 21 years the right to vote in a local government election. It merely requires a simple amendment to the local election code. Since this Bill happens to be before the House at present this is obviously the most suitable time at which to correct this anomaly. The excuse the Parliamentary Secretary has given for not having so done is that he would prefer to wait to hear the views of the Irish people following a referendum, which is to take place in the autumn, on extending the vote to those of 18 and over for Dáil and local elections. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary and to the House that the great likelihood is that that referendum will be carried by the Irish people and, if this is so, then this Bill will have to be amended before an election is held, because of certain provisions contained in the Bill. Would it not have been more reasonable to have, as an expression of intent, the word "18" rather than "21" inserted in section 1 so that when, as it is almost certain, the people agree that those of 18 years and over be given the right to vote in Dáil elections, there will be no need for a further amendment to this Bill?

We are being asked to agree to a Bill which will ensure that no local election will take place for 12 months; nevertheless, the Parliamentary Secretary is suggesting that he will have to come back some time within that 12 months to amend section 1 of the Bill now before us. It would have been a far simpler thing to have made provision in section 1 to allow those of 18 years and over the right to vote in local government elections. If, to the surprise to all of us here, the people decided not to agree to the referendum proposal in October, the Minister could validly come back to the House then and ask to have section 1 amended to read "21 years". It is the intention of my party and myself to table an amendment to section 1 which we will be debating vigorously and will pursue to the end on Committee Stage.

There is a further point in relation to this. If this Bill, as passed, contained provision for people of 18 years and over to vote in local authority elections those who compile the electoral registers in September of each year would then automatically include on their lists all persons of 18 years and over. The referendum on votes at 18 in Dáil elections will not take place until October, by which time the compilation of the electoral registers will already have commenced. If, as we expect, the referendum proposal is agreed to, there will be the double task for those who compile the electoral register of having to go back once again to every household in their area and recheck in each house whether there is anybody between 18 and 21 living there. It will require their printing a second set of draft electoral registers and virtually double the amount of the work involved in the compiling of electoral electors throughout the country. By the simple expediency of putting the word "18" instead of "21" into this Bill that would automatically be attended to and all those of 18 and over would have their names inserted in that original draft electoral register.

There is also a grave omission in this Bill, in the explanatory memorandum and in the Parliamentary Secretary's opening speech—the omission of any reference to the strange anomalous position which exists in Dublin and Bray. If elections have had to be postponed for valid or other reasons in the other local authority areas, there is absolutely no reason why special elections, which can be held by ministerial order, should not have been held in Dublin city and Bray this year. Whatever the reasons the democratically elected councils in those two places are no longer there, I think we all agree that that situation has obtained now for far too long and that if it was originally intended as a punishment for the supposed sin of the members of those authorities, the punishment has now been meted out in severe measure. The punishment has been meted out not to the members of those local authorities but to the ratepayers and the general public in those areas. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should examine this position with a view to arranging for special elections in Dublin city and Bray.

If this is not found feasible and if the commissioners have to be reappointed, probably around this time, it is suggested that by the device of appointing 45 commissioners, they being the people who were originally the members of the Dublin City Council, the Minister could to some extent at least restore democracy to the Dublin City Council. With some little reservation I agree with the provisions of section 1 which allow that—

a person shall only be entitled to vote once in any local authority election.

With the situation which pertains in the county it is important that we should be seen to adhere strictly to the principle of one man, one vote. We had the strange position whereby somebody could vote in the local authority area in which he lived and also vote in a different local authority area if he happened to be a property holder there. I have a minor reservation in relation to it.

A person in that position will argue that he is paying high rates on the property which he holds in that second area and consequently should be entitled to a say in the running of the local authority which administers it. That brings us to a situation not involved in this Bill and into which I do not wish to go in great detail. If the rating system were changed, nobody could feel he was entitled to have a say because of the considerable amount of money he paid.

We should adhere as strictly as we can to the principle of a person voting once at election time. I am in agreement with the provisions of section 2 which remove what were, in my opinion, penal clauses which operated against members of local authorities who were unfortunate enough to be in financial difficulties. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to explain why in paragraph (b), subsection (1) of section 2, the period of five years is mentioned, when in another part of this Bill we are extending the life of the local authorities to six years.

The position still obtains whereby part-time employees of local authorities are precluded from standing for election to the local authority in which they serve. The example was given in the other House of part-time firemen, who are in no way involved in the administration of the authority or in its day-to-day running but who provide a service to their local community often at considerable expense to themselves. This is an anomaly which should have been corrected in this Bill. The person involved is not expected to make major administrative decisions, but he makes a contribution to his community and, by so doing, might turn out to be one of the most suitable men to serve on the authority.

I am disappointed that the opportunity to provide the vote at 18 years of age was not availed of and that the introduction of this Bill was not coupled with the announcement of the holding of special elections for the restoration of the Dublin City Council and Bray UDC.

As a member of a local authority I do not quarrel with the postponement of the local elections. Since we had the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation, it was obvious we would not have a local election until we had legislation as a result of that White Paper. I do not accept that the local elections are being postponed merely because we had a referendum in May last and are likely to have a referendum for votes at 18.

This Bill also provides for the local elections to be held in June, 1973. Can the Parliamentary Secretary assure the House that this will happen? Could he inform the House why the deadline of June, 1973, was inserted in the Bill? If we could be prevented from having local elections in 1972 because of one referendum and possibly a second one in this year, I find it difficult to believe we will have the local elections by June, 1973, unless we are to have a presidential election and local elections on the same day, and that is unlikely.

We shall have a presidential election and this would interfere with the holding of the local elections. It is also on the cards that we may also have a general election in 1973, so I am at a loss to know why the Bill has tied itself to the deadline of June, 1973. It would be more convenient if the end of 1973 were mentioned rather than half way through the year.

I should like to commend the Minister and Parliamentary Secretary on the introduction of the section which will end the property qualification in a local election. Property owners were registered in any local authority area in which they paid rates. They were entitled to vote in that area if they wished. Many of them would have to come long journeys and did not avail of this. They could have been challenged on having voted in another area in which they had a residence, but all this smacked of discrimination.

We know what "one man, one vote" means, and I am pleased this has been amended in local authority elections. I was disappointed that 21 was adopted in this Bill as the voting age. Without reference to the Constitution we could have given votes at 18 in local elections. The Minister may have taken the view that as we are having a referendum to change the Constitution in this regard it would appear to be anticipating the result of the referendum. The Government party have given correct forecasts in the past of referenda and everybody agrees there will be votes at 18 as a result of the referendum.

I do not know what way the voters are likely to react. All the political parties are agreed that it is time that those of 18 years of age and over, who contribute so much to our economy, should be entitled to a say in the running of our affairs. As a gesture, we could in this Bill have amended the section in connection with votes at 21 years to give instead votes at 18 years. We expected that we would not have the local elections in 1972. Is it possible, I wonder, that we may not even have the local elections by June, 1973? It is a great pity that the Bill ties the Minister and his Department to June, 1973, because I can envisage many difficulties in holding the local elections then and, if we cannot hold them, we will have another Bill, as we had five or six years ago, postponing them again.

The Bill before us is very simple. Its main purpose is to give legal effect to the postponement of the local elections this year. The main consideration in the postponement was the fact that we were having the referendum to decide on entry to the Common Market. This was such an important referendum it was vital that smaller matters should not lessen the importance of the occasion. The people reacted very well. If we had had red herrings about local elections, the people would not have had the single purpose of deciding this very important matter.

There are a few points I should like to raise on the question of residential qualifications but they would be more appropriate to the Committee Stage. The Parliamentary Secretary may, however, wish to explain some points. We have four corporations and a number of other bodies with mayoralties. The Bill makes reference to urban and rural bodies. I have seen nothing to distinguish between a corporation and a mayoralty. Clonmel, for example, has a mayoralty and they describe themselves as a corporation. But we are just an urban council. Are Galway, Clonmel, Drogheda, Kilkenny rated in the Bill as being corporations or urban councils?

And Ennis.

What rules qualify them? If you are in one of these areas can you vote there as a member for the county council?

But you cannot have the four corporations.

There is no county council in a county borough.

This is what I am trying to get at.

This is the corporation——

If you talk to the people concerned in Clonmel they will say they are in a corporation too.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Perhaps I could intervene here to say that, if the Senator could follow his own announced wisdom, this is more appropriate for Committee Stage.

I shall leave that. I just raised the question so that the Parliamentary Secretary would have time to consider the matter.

The question of votes at 18 years of age has been introduced in this Bill and should be applicable to the election in June, 1973. There would not be anything very wrong in this. It is, however, a very important step and the Government are right to test popular opinion on this, because everybody does not agree. To bring in legislation to give votes at 18 years without any reference to what the people think might not be in the best interests of either local or central government. I agree that this should be a matter for a referendum.

There is nothing revolutionary in the Bill before us. It is only a matter of minor changes and giving legislative sanction to the postponement of the elections. As the Leas-Chathaoirleach has suggested, we can discuss the more meaty parts on the Committee Stage. Aspirants at local elections breathed a sigh of relief when they knew they were not going to be involved in a referendum one week and in a local election a few weeks later.

I know a number of people in Dublin who are in local government and I did not hear any complaints about the postponement. All we are doing is giving official sanction to the postponement. I agree with Senator J. Fitzgerald that we may be making a mistake in tying ourselves to June. If we have a presidential election and, as some people are forecasting, a general election, which I hope we will not, it might be a mistake. However, we can deal with that aspect on the next stage. There is nothing contentious in the Bill.

On the face of it, this is a simple Bill seeking the postponement of the local elections due to be held this year to next June. I am opposed to any postponement of the local elections. I say that not because I dread going before the electorate or because the election would be coming too soon after the recent referendum but, after nearly 30 years in local government, I have seen a steady erosion during that time of the status of local government and the stature of local representative. That is my personal experience over the years. Whenever there is an overlapping of dates in elections, the local elections are on the chopping block. There is never any question of postponing or deferring other elections. The local elections are the easy way out. I have seen three or four deferments in my time—some of them admittedly for good reasons during the post-war years when it was probably difficult to hold them. The idea of changing from the original three to five years was a good one.

We should have one of two things. We should either have a fixed period for local elections which should be held no matter what other elections interfere with them. I am a great believer in the old saying "Where there is a difficulty and when it is faced up to, it can be overcome". I have seen the local elections coinciding with the presidential election and I have also seen presidential elections coinciding with a referendum. The coincidence of elections is nothing new in this country.

With all due respect to the Parliamentary Secretary and to the Government, that reason for postponing them does not wash as far as I am concerned. If it were found necessary to postpone them, they could easily be held next September. There was a time when local elections were held in September, and there was no difficulty in changing it to June.

Regarding the question of the preparation of this White Paper, I do not know how long more that is going to go on. It must have gone on for eight or nine months when the Minister for Local Government did his circuit and got together large groups. He refused to meet small groups of public representatives. He got large groups of representatives into hotel rooms. I personally was present at a meeting in Limerick where he met representatives from Limerick city, Limerick county, Clare and North Tipperary. The crowd was obviously too large to have a worthwhile discussion. I do not know what impressions the Minister took away with him, but I should hate to think that legislation would be based on the outcome of such large meetings held all over the country.

We in Limerick City Council and in Limerick County Council requested separate meetings with the Minister, or, as a last resort, that he would meet the public representative of Limerick city and county. He declined to do this for his own good reasons.

In this postponement of the local elections I see further evidence of the growing contempt for the local government system in the Parliamentary Secretary's own Department. What disturbs me is that this apparently growing contempt for the local government system coincides with the growing apathy and indifference amongst the public at large. We have heard in both Houses reference to the abolition of the Dublin City Council and Bray Urban Council. I think I am right in saying that in the Dublin city elections no more than 50 per cent of the people ever bother to come out and vote. That is a sad reflection on democracy in this country. So little interest is taken in what should be the basic unit of local government—the city council, the county council, the urban council or the town commissioners. The highest proportion of votes was something over 70 per cent. That shows that somewhere between 20 and 30 per cent of the people of this country do not think it worthwhile to vote for local representatives who as well as looking after their own affairs are prepared to look after the affairs of their community.

I should like to know how many of the younger people in the 21 to 30 year bracket were so disinterested that they stayed at home. I have a feeling that it is generally the older generation— the middle-aged and upwards—who are conscientious enough to go out and vote. One of the features of local government elections in this country at the present time is that the young generation are just not interested. I hope that somebody can produce statistics to disprove what I am saying, but I have had considerable experience in local government myself and I am afraid that I am only too right in what I am saying.

A rather inevitable result of this combination is what I describe, perhaps, rather critically, as contempt by the Minister's Department for the local government system. Indifference in regard to the local government elections has led all parties to find it harder and harder to get candidates of the right type and calibre to stand for local elections. Furthermore, in my view, concurrently with the decline of interest in local government and in local representation, there is a disturbing increase throughout the country in petty crime, including destruction to private and public property. That is true, particularly in the larger urban centres.

It can be strongly argued that the lack of involvement in local affairs could be a major factor in the growing indifference to the rights of others, an indifference which is being expressed more and more in damage and destruction to property on a widening scale. One of the strongest arguments which can be put forward in favour of giving votes to young people at 18 is the hope that in having this right they would be induced to involve themselves more in their local affairs and to take a deeper interest in the welfare and the needs of their community.

In supporting the giving of votes at 18, this is one of the reasons that has activated me more strongly to favour that step. I appreciate the position regarding the holding of a referendum first to see what the people at large think. I am in favour of giving our younger people an opportunity of seeing what they can do at the earliest possible date.

While we are critical of them at times, we must admit that they have qualities of generosity of spirit, of the desire to help others, something which is often sadly lacking in people of the older generation. For that reason, I hope that whenever votes at 18 come —they cannot come now because they are not included in this Bill—we will see a far greater involvement of young people in local affairs.

As I have already stated, the period of office of local authorities should be stated—from three to five years, and I think the longer period is far the better. As an alternative to that, perhaps we should consider the American system whereby, when the Government go out of office, the local authorities also go out of office. If that system which might possibly be regarded as revolutionary were introduced, it would help to infuse new and more interest into local government elections. It might make them more political, but anybody who still thinks that because a person is labelled "independent" in local politics, or is known by some other title, such as "ratepayer" or "farmer", he has not political beliefs, is living in cloudcuckoo land. It would bring more political labels into local government. That might not necessarily be a bad thing. I would like to see a politician wearing his label where the public can see it, and not going forward under other perhaps less noticeable titles. The Government should seriously consider the proposal I have made, even if they cannot see their way to defining a fixed period of office.

I know the question of the White Paper does not enter into this debate, but I hope the Cathaoirleach will forgive me if I refer to it in passing. We will have an opportunity at a later date, no doubt, of discussing it in greater detail. It is unfortunate that it has not been published in its final form before this Bill was discussed. It would have been very helpful to all of us, both in the Dáil and Seanad, if we could have discussed the final proposals of the Minister and the Government in regard to the organisation of local government in conjunction with this Bill. The two documents are inseparable. The long-promised White Paper on the financing of local government is equally important to the reorganisation of local government. We are discussing this Bill, which on the surface is a relatively harmless Bill, against the background knowledge that the Minister and his officials are working hard to restructure the whole system of local government. If the White Paper is any indication as to what they have in mind, we will have less rather than more local government in the years ahead.

The argument put forward very strongly by the Minister and his officials is that the small urban council has no part to play in a modern complex local development system. I refute that argument absolutely. The reason put forward is that the Minister cannot afford to engage a town clerk and staff. He cannot afford to do this because the small urban districts, such as town councils, are asked to do what should not be expected of them. The way we should approach this problem is by asking ourselves what is the smallest unit of local government we can usefully maintain, rather than how many of them we can abolish and so continue the present centralisation of local government in the Custom House in Dublin.

Local government should be local in every sense of the term; the closer we can get to the grassroots and to the people, the better; because in the final analysis—and every public representative in this Chamber would agree with me—the people have shown sound common sense. The greater the opportunity we can give them to demonstrate their comon sense in voting for their local representatives, the better.

I do not wish to say anything more at this juncture but to emphasise again my opposition to this postponement. It is a retrograde step and another indication of the fact that there is very little regard in Custom House circles for local public representatives. I am sorry to have to say that. Perhaps I have become too identified with local government, but I have seen these changes coming with the extension of the franchise to everybody over 21, which was proper and necessary. At the same time, however, we saw the clamping down on responsibility by the introduction of the County and City Management Act. We extended the franchise and at the same time took away the powers. You cannot have responsibility without powers. In saying that, I appreciate that in a modern complex system of local government you must have permanent, efficient officials, but we should think now of a greater involvement by public representatives in the whole system of local government. The two ideas are not necessarily incompatible. Now that we have a young Minister in charge of the Department of Local Government, he should be directing his energies and abilities to finding a proper and reasonable solution of what should not be conflicting issues.

I share the apprehension voiced because the local elections are being postponed for another year. The reasons given are quite right. What Senator Boland said in his opening speech was quite correct. He said there was a great danger that the impression would be given of the Oireachtas not regarding the local authorities as playing a sufficiently valuable part in national political life and that we are therefore prepared to postpone their elections for another year, having already done this on a previous occasion. We should make absolutely clear that we value the work done by local authorities. We regard their performance in the national political scene as being of tremendous importance. We want to involve more people at grassroots level in the local authority scene.

I share Senator Boland's apprehension that when, next year, the holding of the local authority elections in June comes up for consideration there will be other very pressing reasons why these elections should again be postponed. The pressing reasons given will be the number of elections which will be taking place in 1973—general election, presidential election, by-elections. There will be another, apparently, valid reason for postponing the local authority elections for another year. It is a great pity that the elections were not held this year. Perhaps a six month postponement would have been enough. It is a dangerous principle to go on postponing these elections, and it will only do the nation harm if people feel that the attitude of the Oireachtas to local authorities is that they only play a minor role. As Senator Russell has pointed out, it is up to us to let it be known that we feel otherwise and that we wish to see as many people as possible involved in local authority business.

I welcome the proposal in section 1 of this Bill to abolish the property restrictions for electors. It is important. Other sections dealing with similar proposals are also to be welcomed. I welcome very much the proposed referendum to obtain votes at 18 in the Dáil and presidential elections. All three political parties have expressed their support for this proposal, which is a very important one. Therefore, I see absolutely no reason why it should fail in a referendum. It is most important, with the increase in educational levels, and the increase in political awareness of the young people, that they should get votes at an earlier age. Everybody in this House will support that proposal. It therefore follows that the proposals, mentioned in the Parliamentary Secretary's address, to incorporate a similar clause into this Bill by amendment later, if the referendum result turns out as expected, will be welcomed by everybody.

I should like to refer briefly to the problem referred to by earlier speakers, that is the position of the corporations of Dublin and Bray. If democracy is to function correctly the institutions must have the support of all the political parties involved. To me, as an Independent, it is a sad reflection on all the parties involved that agreement cannot be reached on the basic principles in order to enable those two bodies to resume operations in the normal democratic manner. I do not believe that is the fault of one particular party. I do not know enough about this issue to place the blame on the shoulders of one party or another, but all parties must share the blame.

Our democracy will manifestly fail to work unless the parties can come together on broad agreement on the way in which those corporations should work. The sooner moves are made, be they behind the scenes or in any other way, to bring back those corporations the better. It is highly unsatisfactory that normal democratic rights are denied to the citizens of Dublin and Bray. I hope that the points in this regard so far made in the debate will spur the parties into action to hammer out an agreement as to what should be done with regard to the rates and when Dublin Corporation and Bray UDC will be restored.

Níl i gciest agam ach cúpla focal a rá mar gheall ar an mBille seo. Is Bille gairid gonta soiléir é agus tá súil agam go nglacfar leis gan a thuilleadh moille. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an Aire agus leis an Rúnaí Parliaminte as ucht cuid den óráid a tugadh i dtosach báire a bheith as Gaeilge. Is maith an comhartha é agus tá súil agam go leanfar den deanós sin i gcásanna eile as seo amach.

In the Parliamentary Secretary's opening statement the reasons are stated quite clearly as to why the local elections have been postponed until next June. There are two perfectly valid reasons for the postponement. In the first place, legislation is being prepared to effect certain reforms in the local government system arising from the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation. It is clear that these changes could not be implemented in time to permit the holding of the local elections at the appointed time, which is June of this year. The amount of work put into this matter by the Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department illustrates quite clearly the interest of the Government in obtaining the best possible form of local government in this State, taking into consideration the needs of our time and the current thinking on matters appertaining to local government.

This is a short Bill and the various provisions contained in it are worthy of the highest commendation. Let us take the first section which states:

A person shall be entitled to be registered as a local government elector in a local electoral area if he has reached the age of twenty-one years and he was, on the qualifying date, ordinarily resident in that area.

That is quite definite and it rids the scene of the complexity of a voter being given the choice of voting in one area or another through having property in these areas. Some speaker has already mentioned that it is most desirable that we stand for the principle of one man, one vote. We stand for that principle and it is quite clear in this Bill that the Minister has placed beyond all doubt that that principle exists in the State. I am sure everybody welcomes it.

Section 2 is very commendable in as much as it does not debar a person from being a member of a local authority if through some misfortune— and such things happen—he becomes bankrupt or is compelled to take assistance of a certain form. As the Parliamentary Secretary said in his opening remarks, such views are considered to be out of touch with current thinking, which is that the electorate are entitled to the widest choice possible in selecting their representatives.

Some of my friends on the other side of the House were inclined to take the Minister to task for not predicting that the result of the autumn referendum would be a majority vote in favour of votes at 18 years. It would take a very brave man, and possibly a reckless one, to anticipate the results of referenda at any time. I believe the Minister was very wise in his approach. On page 2 of the Parliamentary Secretary's statement we read:

The reference to 21 years merely repeats the existing provision in regard to age and is repeated here solely for reasons connected with drafting. As previously announced it is proposed to hold a referendum on the voting age for Dáil and presidential elections and referenda in the autumn.... If the proposal is approved by the people it may be expected that the names of the 18 to 21 year old voters will be on the register coming into force in April next and that they will be able to vote at the local elections in June, 1973.

I think that is a very sensible approach and I find it hard to see how the Minister could have done anything else. If the majority of the voters are in favour of votes at 18 the adjustment can be made and everything will be in shipshape order for the local elections next year. I hope the Bill will get a speedy passage through the House.

I am sorry it has been found necessary to postpone the local elections. I do not think it was necessary to postpone the elections. To say that the elections can be held under better conditions in 1973 is, to my mind, wishful thinking because local elections have very little to do with the referendum and local elections should have very little to do with any other type of elections.

Local authorities are far more important than most people at higher levels seem to think. The preservation of the powers of local authorities should be one of the foremost thoughts in our minds because if we are to allow central bureaucracy to take control to a greater extent than it has at present we might as well say goodbye to local initiative, and it is on local initiative that the powers of local authorities are built. The people who dedicate themselves voluntarily to local authorities are certainly deserving of better treatment than to be told at any particular stage: "Your election is now postponed for a further period."

I should like to see a situation in which local authorities would be in office within a fixed period after local elections, and that nothing would change that date, whether it be a presidential election, a general election or a referendum. It should be taken completely out of the context of central government. Unless this is done in the future people who would wish to serve at local level will be denied giving their services to the State, and that will be the greatest loss that can happen to it during the coming years.

I believe that next year will be even less auspicious than the current year for the holding of local elections. God knows what will happen in the meantime. I do not think that even "Old More" can predict what exactly will be the political situation during the coming year and a half. However, I am speaking from the point of view of an elected representative. What about the people? They have been working under local authorities for the past five years: at least, they have been paying their rates and have been listening to speeches at local level and have attempted to have had services provided. It is only right that the people should have an opportunity of giving their verdict on how their elected representatives have worked during the previous five years.

From my own knowledge, there are many more people becoming involved in the affairs of local authorities than ever before. Organisations are being set up here and there, such as rate-payers' organisations. They are bringing before the minds of practically everybody in the area the whole working of the local authority as they see it. These are not always the best aspects of the working of the local authority, and it means that people are more inclined to criticise than to evaluate the working of their elected representatives.

Therefore, the people should be entitled to have an opportunity of pushing these fellows into the outer darkness, if they have not proved themselves, or of again sustaining them by re-electing them for a further period. It is unfortunate that they have been denied that opportunity at this particular time. I believe that in 1973 there will hardly be a hope at all of being able to hold local government elections. Because of a presidential election and either a general election or by-elections—maybe two general elections—there may not be an opportunity next year of holding local government elections.

The Parliamentary Secretary's introductory speech and some of the speeches from Members on the other side have attempted to make the excuse that because of changes that are about to take place in local government law it was necessary to postpone the elections. The elections have very little to do with local government law, because any regulations made by law can be imposed on an elected local authority. The fact that the local authority will be elected cannot change whatever regulations will be made afterwards.

I do not believe anybody will abolish some of the smaller local authorities and we may disregard what may be heard about that. It would be a pity if the smaller local authorities had to be abolished. The county area will be preserved, and will have to be preserved. We should all ensure, as far as possible, that the county area will be preserved as the local unit for all time. It is traditional, it has worked, and there is no reason why it should not work in the future. I do not think that the election would have affected anything that would happen in the future.

Some Senators on this side of the House have objected that the 18-year-olds have not been put on the register. I do not agree with that. It would not be fair to put 18-year-olds on the next register before a referendum has been taken. It would not be fair to give them votes at local authority level before they were empowered to vote in a general election. If they were put on the register, with by-elections and perhaps a general election pending, it would cause confusion. There would need to be distinctive letters on a register to distinguish those who were over 18 and those who were under 18 years. It is legally necessary under the Constitution that the referendum should be held. Although I agree entirely that people of 18 years and over should have votes, I think it is better not to have embodied in this Bill anything to give them that vote. I also agree that certain people who hitherto had been disqualified from voting and are now disqualified from becoming members of a local authority should now be allowed to become members, because the broader the spectrum in local authority work the better. I have very little more to say except to express my regret that it was found necessary to postpone the elections.

It is not my intention to hold up the passage of this Bill, but I should like to say that in the Local Government (Extension of Franchise) Act, 1935, we in the Government party showed our democracy. We continued to show it by supporting the referendum to extend the voting age to 18. To legislate for such a provision now would be putting the cart before the horse.

I realise that September is the usual month in which to gather the names of those appearing on the register of voters, but the register is compiled much later. I therefore suggest when these forms are circulated requesting the names of those who will be 21 years next April, that instead of making that request the form should ask for the names of those under 18 years next April. This information will then be available if and when the people vote for its passage.

I should just like to refer to one other point. I object strongly to the method of compilation of registers in many areas. I think they are diabolical and the Minister should take up this matter with local authorities. Generally, in urban areas they are very good, but in rural areas they are compiled in many cases alphabetically and bear no relation to the areas in which the people live.

We had the experience in 1965 of local elections being postponed for a year. The reason given at the time was because there was a pending general election. The general election took place in 1966 and we had another postponement of the local elections until 1967. The reason given was that there was a presidential election in 1967. That being the situation, I can recall some years ago—perhaps on one or two occasions—having the presidential election and the local elections on the same day.

I am curious to know what is the objection now to having the local elections and presidential election on the same day. Why were the local elections not held with the referendum? Some people think that we are dealing with an electorate not capable of voting twice on the one day. I am not prepared to accept that. There seems to be no other reason given. They are afraid that they would have mixed up the local elections and the referendum on entry into the EEC. I admit that entry into the EEC was a vital decision for the Irish people to make, but it would not have taken anything from the public if they had the opportunity of casting a vote for or against entry into EEC and at the same time, a vote for candidates in the local elections.

One must feel that the 1967 elections were postponed because the Government at that time were hoping for a small vote in that presidential election. If they were they were fooled, because if my memory serves me right it was a rather high poll. It was one of the highest polls we had in any presidential election, and I might mention in passing that it was a close margin. Maybe these are the reasons; but in any event the House is entitled to know. If they were the reasons, could anybody give me the reasons why the local elections which are due this year are being postponed? The Parliamentary Secretary said that legislation is being prepared to effect certain reforms in the local government system arising from the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation.

It is five years since we had local elections and why is it that these changes were not made in that time? Why are the Government not geared to hold the local elections in the year they are due? It is admitting that the Government failed to do what they should have done during that five year period. Why could the local elections not be held with the referendum which the Government hope to hold in the autumn?

There are many reasons why the local elections should not be postponed. It takes away tremendously from the status of local authorities to be treating them the way they are being treated at the moment. Some years ago we had local elections every three years; it was then extended to a five year period. On the last occasion it was extended to a seven year period. At the moment it is extended to a six year period and it may be a seven or eight year period. Whatever period of years Parliament agrees on for the holding of local elections should be adhered to, because it is unfair to the representatives in the area to do otherwise. There are many problems affecting local authorities all over the country. We have the question of planning applications. I am not going into this in any detail but we have dissatisfaction in connection with planning applications in every county in the country. We have a completely unjust rating system in every local authority. We also have the situation where the Government are failing to give grants to solve the housing problem all over the country.

It was mentioned earlier that we also have the problem of Dublin Corporation and Bray Urban District Council. I do not know whose fault it was that Dublin Corporation or Bray Urban District Council were dissolved, but I do know that they have paid their penalty. They have been suspended for two or three years. Even at this stage it would be no harm if the election was held for Dublin Corporation in order to at least have a first citizen in this city. The same could be said for Bray Urban District Council.

According to the Parliamentary Secretary, it was considered undesirable that local elections should be held on a date which would be so close to polling day appointed for the referendum for entry into EEC. That is not a sincere statement. There is some other undercurrent in this which I fail to detect. The referendum on EEC entry was held in May and the local elections should also have been held then. The Taoiseach often talks about saving expenses in elections. If the Government were sincere in saving expenses that was the time to save them. That opportunity has passed, but we still have another opportunity: the referendum on the vote at 18 years of age.

The vote at 18 years of age is overdue. Everybody knows that, as far back as 1965, this party accepted in its policy that it was time to give a vote to people of 18 years and over. The reasons are obvious. There is a good percentage of people of 18 years who are paying income tax and other taxes and are justly entitled to a vote. If we do not give some power to youth, even through the ballot box, they could start taking the power to themselves. We have seen that on numerous occasions—they have taken to the streets in protest marches of all classes and creeds. The reason is that they feel they should have some say in government. This is an opportunity of giving them that say by putting the responsibility on them. Give them the responsibility of becoming Members of this House and of becoming members of local authorities. When we put the responsibility on the youth, we will find that they will answer to that responsibility. Because of the haphazard way we are going about this we are not being taken seriously.

The Government, who say it is their policy to give votes at 18, had the opportunity of doing it in this Bill. It does not take a referendum to give a vote to people who are voting in the local government election; ordinary legislation can do that. Why did we not come out and give a lead to the people of the country? Some Senator at the other side of the House said he felt that they should wait and get the decision of the electorate. They wanted to test the popular vote. At the same time, they are now in the position of being able to test the popular vote in the local elections and they are not prepared to do so. You cannot blow hot and cold at the same time. If the Government are sincere in giving votes to people at 18, they should give a lead. They had the opportunity of giving that lead and failed to do so. I recommend that the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary take a second look at this and let us take the initiative in this House.

Neither of the two reasons given are sufficiently strong to justify not holding the local elections this year. The White Paper on Local Government was published quite a considerable time ago and it should have been possible for the Government party to have examined it and to have decided which recommendation they intend implementing immediately and the recommendations they do not intend implementing.

It may have been thought wiser not to hold the local government elections prior to the next general election because a further curtailment of the powers of local authorities might react unfavourably against the Government. Local committees of agriculture have already been threatened, so there are some grounds for believing that the powers of local authorities may be curtailed when the next Bill on the reorganisation of local government is introduced.

There is no justification for thinking the general public are not competent to express an opinion on our entry into the EEC and on the same day cast a preference for a candidate in local government elections. People who can make up their minds about an important issue such as entry to the EEC should be able on the same day to indicate whom they wish to have governing them in the local government authorities.

The question of votes at 18 has been put on the long finger too often. People at 18 are more mature and take a more active part in public affairs now. They are entering the Garda Síochána, the Army, and the Civil Service. Therefore, they must have the ability to decide between different candidates at local government elections or between different parties at general elections. Large numbers of persons of 18 are paying income tax under PAYE. They are contributing financially to the State at an early age and it is proper and just they should have a say in selecting those who are to represent them locally and in central government.

The Minister for Local Government decided to abolish Dublin Corporation and Bray Urban Council, whether his reasons were justifiable or not, but now it would be in the interest of democracy that they should be restored after the five year period. If a Minister feels it necessary to abolish two or three corporations or five or six county councils and then has power, through the Oireachtas, to postpone the holding of local government elections from year to year, it could be possible for the people living in these boroughs to be left without representation by elected representatives for up to 12 years. When the Minister felt it necessary to introduce measures to postpone local government elections it is a pity he did not, as a gesture of goodwill towards local authorities in general and towards the principle of democracy, announce that the corporation and the urban council which were abolished, should be restored.

I welcome the contributions made by Senators and I am pleased they saw merit in many of the proposals contained in this short Bill.

The two main issues raised were votes at 18 and Dublin Corporation. There was an indication given that amendments would be tabled to the Bill in respect of each of these matters. Without wishing to influence anyone, I should like to point out that we are anxious to get this Bill through this House as quickly as possible. In respect of any amendment on the question of the reinstatement of Dublin Corporation, there is provision in the 1941 Act whereby the Minister can, at any time, do exactly this. It is not necessary to put down an amendment in order to carry into effect what is in the minds of Senators who have advocated this. It is open to them to put down amendments, but they are superfluous. What they seek to have done could be done through the legislation which gives the Minister power to act at any time.

I will not put down the amendment if the Parliamentary Secretary undertakes to get the Minister to use his powers under the 1941 Act.

I cannot give that guarantee but the method is there and an amendment does not improve on it.

This Bill does not prevent electors at the next local elections having votes at 18. They will have votes at 18 years in the next local elections, which are to be held in June, 1973. Today in the Dáil the Minister introduced the First Stage of the Amendment of the Constitution Bill which will enable the referendum to be held in the autumn.

Senator Dalgan Lyons made a very good point here. If there were to be a general election before June of next year the situation could arise where electors of the age group between 18 and 21 years would be entitled to vote at local elections but not at a general election. The main point I want to get across is that the over 18s will be entitled to vote at the next local government elections. In any case they could not be put on the register until April of next year. To grant them votes by legislation in advance of the result of the referendum is not necessary in view of the fact that they will have votes at the next local government elections.

The question of the compilation of the register was raised. In the compilation of the next draft register, which takes place in September, instructions will be given to have the names of those of 18 years of age and over noted. When the official register becomes effective on the 15th April, depending on the result of the referendum, they can be included in it. Another Senator mentioned that it will be necessary to bring in a Bill to give local electors votes at 18 years of age. I agree this is necessary, but it can be done in the Bill in connection with the general and presidential elections which must be introduced after the referendum.

One of the reasons I gave for the postponement was that we did not want to have local elections before the reorganisation of local government. One Senator alleged that there was contempt by the Department of Local Government for the local government system. This reorganisation of local government is an effort by the Minister and the Government to give more authority and power to local bodies, to leave more authority in the hands of local authorities so that they will have more freedom to take decisions. This process is going on at the moment. The Minister for Local Government has done this on a number of occasions. The most recent I recollect was when he sent a circular to local authorities informing them that in the case of housing, if a number of houses, less than six in the group, or any number of specific houses are to be built they do not have to refer plans, tenders or contract documents to the Department. The allegation made by Senators that there is contempt in the Department of Local Government for local authorities is not true. The reason for the postponement of the elections is that legislation to reorganise local government is being drafted.

That this reorganisation of local government should take place before the next local elections is logical and disproves the argument made on this point.

The other reason given for the postponement was proximity to the recent referendum. This was something that was agreed and welcomed by all the parties. I have here a statement made by Deputy Cosgrave in which he said that he was glad that the question of the EEC referendum was a single issue and not tied up with anything else which would be put before the people on that occasion. He said that it was of such importance that nothing else should be put before the people on the same day. Having local elections on that day, as has been suggested, would not have had the agreement of any of the parties. There were similar statements also by Deputy Corish, Deputy Thornley and others.

Senator Boland mentioned the question of postponements. There have been many postponements of local elections in the past. The last local elections were postponed twice. It has been so down the years under various Governments. The suggestion that the elections could have been held in the autumn with the referendum is not a feasible one. This year we have had one referendum and are due to have another, and in addition there may be by-elections. The position may not be any different next year when there will be a presidential election and perhaps a general election. However, as far as the Government are concerned, the local elections will be held in June, 1973.

One Senator suggested that it should be left open-ended so that if they could not be held in June they could be held on some date in 1973. When they are being postponed it is best to postpone them for a year. Another Senator asked why the Parliamentary Secretary was so sure that they would be held in June. It is laid down in section 84 of the Electoral Act, 1963, as amended by the Local Elections Act, 1966, that it shall be in June. In other words, that there shall be a definite number of years.

A statement was made that the actual draft for the proposed local government electoral areas is in the hands of cummann members and members of local authorities. This is not so. The Department of Local Government have no knowledge of this and I deny that it is so.

Reference was made to the Corporation of Dublin and the Bray Urban Council. The same arguments which apply in the case of local elections generally apply in the case of Dublin and Bray. It is probable that quite a number of changes will be made in these areas, especially in Dublin where we have had complaints by various Deputies in the Dáil that there was overlapping. There were complaints that there was a plethora of unsatisfactory situations where people who lived in Dublin county were tenants of corporation houses. Planning considerations are also involved and there is a very strong case to be made for reorganisation in these two areas.

I do not think it would be advisable for the corporation to hold elections in Dublin. Senator Boland suggested that instead of appointing one commissioner the Minister should appoint 45 commissioners. I presume he has in mind the 45 ex-members of the Dublin Corporation. I do not see any merit at all in that. I do not know whether, if that were done, those ex-members would give any undertaking that the existing rate would be adhered to, or whether, if they were reappointed in the capacity of commissioners, the situation would be any different.

The reason for the abolition of the corporation is well known. A rate was proposed, an inquiry was held and it was found that the rate was insufficient to run the corporation and provide the services required, especially the health services and, indeed, others. There is a statutory requirement in connection with the health services and, if less than an adequate rate were struck, one thing that would not suffer would be the health services. Employment and other aspects of the operation of the corporation would be affected rather than health provisions because legally the health demand would have to be met anyhow. The point I am making is that I would disagree with the suggestion that the 45 ex-members of the corporation should be appointed as commissioners.

I mentioned the question of the register. This will be looked after to ensure that the names and addresses of 18s to 21s will be available for inclusion in the final register.

That will be in anticipation?

In anticipation of the result of the referendum and the legislation which will be necessary Senator Russell accused the Minister of not agreeing to meet members of each local authority. This would hardly be possible for any minister, especially a Minister as fully occupied as the Minister for Local Government. The best he could have done and did was to meet, in some cases, members of large local authorities and, in other cases, to have regional or area meetings. He had nine such meetings. He got the message across that he was prepared to receive, and asked for suggestions from local authorities and other bodies. A very large number of suggestions have come to hand and as a result any legislation which is being drafted will have regard to a very wide range of information, suggestions and so on, not alone by local authorities but by the public generally.

In conclusion I urge the House that it is important that we should get all stages of the Bill as quickly as possible, today, if that is feasible.

Question put and agreed to.

Would the House agree to the suggestion made by the Parliamentary Secretary that we take the remaining Stages now?

We would be particularly anxious that the two amendments which were suggested should be at least discussed. I do not suppose the drafting of the amendments would take a considerable length of time. Perhaps we might take the Committee Stage at the conclusion of the other business today, if that is acceptable to the House. At the conclusion of the business ordered, I understand there is a motion on the Adjournment.

Amendments such as these were in the Dáil and I understand the drafting could be done immediately.

There are two other items ordered for today. I was just suggesting to the House that neither of the items which are ordered will take a considerable length of time. We could take the Committee Stage of this Bill after those items have been dealt with.

There is a slight difficulty with regard to the next item, which is the Health Regulations Motion. The debate on that is still proceeding in the Dáil and I understand it is not completed. We would not be able to take that in the absence of the Minister. We possibly could, however, take No. 3 and that would bring us up to the tea break. Could we take the Committee Stage of this Bill immediately after tea?

That is acceptable from our point of view.

Agreed.

Barr
Roinn