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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Nov 1972

Vol. 73 No. 12

European Communities Bill, 1972: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I should like to address myself, first, to the constitutional change which has been made by the passing of the referendum by the people by such a significant and encouraging majority. In particular, I should like to ask a question as to whether we are, in the terms of Article 5 of our Constitution, any longer a sovereign, independent, democratic State. If we are, I should like to ask in what sense we are. I do not think it right in the public area to flinch from this question.

The British legal theory has been stated as being that Parliament is the power to make or unmake any law whatever. We are, today, making a law relative to a particular area of great importance and what we are doing may possibly be without precedent in the history of the State in that we may be proposing to adopt law which we will never, legally or constitutionally, be able to repeal. Both the Belgian courts and the German courts have unequivocally found that membership of these Communities—I speak in particular of what is the most important community for us, namely, the European Economic Community—involves the reception into the legal systems of Belgium and Germany of a supranatiosal legal system restricting national sovereignty.

The American position, with regard to international law, is quite different from the British and our own in that international agreements in the United States take immediate legal effect without the necessity for any domestic law to be enacted. Although it is the law of the United States that an international agreement can be set aside or repealed, international law can be varied by subsequent federal legislation. It is quite clear that in Britain that is not the position. In Britain an international agreement requires the adoption of domestic legislation to give it legal effect, while the international obligation is there.

Article 29.6 of our Constitution provides that:

No international agreement shall be part of the domestic law of the State save as may be determined by the Oireachtas.

All that the amendment of the Constitution, which was effected by the adoption of the referendum, has done is to remove the obstacle in the Articles of the Constitution. There is a legal view, which I am unable to assess except that it was expressed by some very well-informed people that the amendment may not have done enough to achieve what was its undoubted objective. All that it may have done—and, I am going to assume, that it has done—is to remove the obstacle in the Articles of the Constitution invalidating laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State necessitated by the obligations of membership of the Community. That amendment would seem not to remove the necessity to do what is being done in this legislation. This amendment would not seem to remove the necessity to determine as part of the domestic law of the State the international agreements which have been made in connection with the European Economic Community.

However, Article 29 of the Constitution contains another section which may have importance in distinguishing the jurisprudential position of this country and that of the United Kingdom. Clause 3 of Article 29, which has been before the courts for interpretation, provides that Ireland accepts the general recognised principals of international law as its rules of conduct in its relations with other states. Mr. Justice John O'Byrne, in a case in 1945—The Saorstát and Continental Steamship Company versus De Las Morenas—and the Supreme Court in the State (Duggan) versus Tapley in 1952, held that this clause of this Article repealed domestic law inconsistent with customary international law. It would appear that there are other arguments than these decisions and other arguments than those dependent upon this clause of that Article to support the view that the Oireachtas has no power to enact legislation, if to do so would constitute a breach of Ireland's international law of obligation.

There are other arguments to support this view. An important argument can be based on the nature of the amendment which the people have made to the Constitution and which would appear to give these treaties, if ratified and if made part of the domestic law of this State by the determination of the Oireachtas, a status outside the Constitution and not subject to amendment. In addition to the effect that may have been caused by the amendment, there is the legal argument that where the legislature joins with other states in setting up and recognising in Irish domestic law an authority with governmental powers, the legislature cannot unilaterally determine it. This obviously arises with regard to the establishment of the different colonies of the receding British Empire and its dependent states, and, indeed, even in relation to the effects of the Statute of West-minister.

The British are slow to depart from their old stated principles, but Lord Justice Denning has in a recent case said, with a piece of typically British pragmatism, that legal theory must give way to practical politics, and Lord Haw-Haw must be hanged.

A question remains that is of importance. I raise it to discover what is the Government's view on it. It is whether it is thought that the effect of this legislation is to give a clear primacy in Irish law of community law over laws enacted hereafter by the Oireachtas. There may be some significance attached to the fact that there is absent from our legislation a provision which appears in the European Communities Act, 1972, which the British legislature has enacted. There is no equivalent to section 3, subsection (1) which incorporates as British domestic law the principles laid down by the decisions of the European Court. This may be important and I would like to be clear as to the reason for the absence of an equivalent section in our code, because the European Court itself has asserted without qualification in a number of cases— Costa versus Enel in 1964 and Wilhelm in 1969—the primacy of Community law over national law.

It may be the Government's view that it is the effect of Article 5 of the Treaty which is to be made part of the domestic law of this State, which requires each member state to take all the necessary steps to see that its obligations are carried out, and that where there is a conflict the courts, in interpreting that as part of the domestic law of Ireland, will have to give that primacy to European law which has been, apparently, decisively given by the section I have referred to in the United Kingdom Act.

I take the view that, despite the proposition of Article 5, we are a sovereign independent democratic State and that it has already been part of our law that sovereignty is and can be limited by the implication of Article 29.3 of the Constitution with regard customary international law. The enactment of this legislation will place a further effective and irretrievable limitation on the sovereignty referred to in Article 5. I am concerned to discover the actual position. I am distressed that the position should be as I think it is because we gain more by accepting this limitation of sovereignty than we apparently lose by it.

A decision to share our power is involved here with a view to an enhancement of sovereignty in terms of the economic realities which this country has to cope with and which are there irrespective of any legal sovereignty. It is not an empty phrase to argue that we are providing evidence of the existence of sovereignty by accepting a limitation on it. We should now look at the nature of the limitation which we are accepting in regard to certain significant policy questions for Ireland. We are entering a unique federation. It is a functional, if not a political federation. It is a federation whose objectives delineated the field of application of the laws capable of being enacted by the institutions of that federation. The fact that there are institutions in itself supports the view that what one is doing is entering a federation. The supreme institution which gives evidence of the federative nature of this Community is the European Court, which has been developing, in its interpretation of the treaty and the regulations, directives and decisions made under the treaty, into a system of law which is self-enforcing. There is other evidence of the existence of a federation.

The Commission has a legal personality. It is the Commission which made the agreement with GATT. It has the power to make treaties. There are also budgetary powers. I want to ask a question now which is peripheral to what I am talking about. Why do we not find in this Bill any of the matter relative to the fiscal consequences of membership of the Community? I take it that the answer will be that these will be found in some measure introduced by the Minister's colleague. There does not seem to be any legal provisions here to deal with the financing aspect of membership.

It is proper to say that there are important questions of policy arising from a contemplation of the present type of Community that we are entering. These are matters about which we, as a people, should be thinking strenuously and about which the Government and its advisers have done their thinking already, because, within that effective area where Community law applies, there is, on examination of the powers of the different institutions of the federation, little limitation on the power of Council in the Commission. Historically, I think I am correct in saying that at a certain point, as a result of French behaviour, there was a transfer of effective power to the Council where the Minister will be sitting. The assembly functions under remote and exceptional supervision and sanction. There is obligation to consult it in certain cases— as, for example, with regard to directives under Article 100 of the treaty. The Minister will be acutely conscious of the importance of giving the people in Ireland a real sense of participating in the decisions that are going to be made within this area. It is an area which may become, as time passes, in practice much larger than it has hitherto been, even if that is only because certain of the objectives of the treaty themselves imply a degree of planning which seems to involve political institutions of a kind which we have not had before, such as the whole matter of regional and social development and the co-ordination of policies leading to monetary union. Is it Government policy to seek to increase the democratic nature of the European assembly so that its members from this country are not found to arrive there by curious processes which the people know little of? Is there to be a deliberate policy to see, for example, that that assembly is itself strengthened? Is it to be national policy to seek to have the members of the assembly directly elected?

All this is going to take time. While that assembly is evolving and while Irish policy is concerned to have it strengthened and to make more obvious to the people its democratic nature, the Community could be getting a bad name in Ireland. The quality of the men in Brussels raises problems for us. Their abilities may make them impatient with the delays which people unaccustomed to their procedures may want to impose on them before the particular directive or regulation would receive the warm support of the people.

A law which is not consented to can become, as we know in Ireland, law without content, law without teeth, law which is not endorsed. During the period which must elapse before the assembly gets the power which, as democrats we must seek to give it, close attention must be given to the manner in which the Houses of the Oireachtas participate in the government of the Community.

Irish administration generally may learn much from the procedures of the Commission, may have to learn much. In our administrative way, in the British tradition, all Irish Governments have had the habit in all the different Departments affected by a particular proposed piece of legislation of keeping it close to the chest. This is not the way of the Commission. They publish drafts, circulate them widely, desire to get reaction, and Irish Departments will find it necessary within the area of the operation of the proposed new law to consult with those who know most and who may have special interests. It is important that, by discovering the sense of the Houses of the Oireachtas about a proposed regulation or directive, views other than those of people specially affected are also discovered.

The matter of the operations of this proposed committee is of enormous importance. I understand the Oireachtas Library will be provided with directives and regulations. This should include drafts in all the different stages of what is proposed to be done. From the beginning the provision of those documents should be skilfully done with the proper ordering of the matters relative to what is affected. Those of us who are to continue to butter our bread from understanding what is the law have been filled with a sense of dismay when faced with the mass of regulations which are being received into our legal system. Some assistance has been given to us by an attribution in a non-binding way of the apparently affected area. When drafts are put into the Library they must be of help to Members of the Dáil and Seanad who wish to understand what is proposed. They should be told what is thought to be the likely effect of what is proposed on existing law.

Cataloguing will be of supreme importance. I share the view which has been expressed here that no committee of the size proposed will be able to do this. Some rota system may be required. There will be some fields which certain people will know better than others. All the available skills of Parliament must be obtained. It may be troublesome for the Government if as a result of this we have debates in the Houses of Parliament on what is proposed. It may be helpful to the final acceptance by the people of what is done that they be given a sense that their views have at least been expressed, views which will be found to be cross-party ones.

The Minister will have the final say regarding this, as a member of the Council. It will be of assistance to him to know what he should say, and the longer he stays in Brussels the less familiar he is likely to be with reactions here. Inevitably the longer you are away from your native city the less you know about it. I am thinking of my native city of Waterford.

I should like to make a point regarding the amendment which has been made to the Constitution. It has removed all obstacles in the Articles of the Constitution invalidating laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by this State necessitated by the obligations of membership of the Communities. It is significant that it does not say "present obligations"— anything in the Constitution which would invalidate future obligations taken on effectively by the agreement of the Irish member of the Council of Ministers. These may be obligations which must be accepted as part of the domestic law of the State and no part of the Constitution can be invoked to prevent these or to cause an impediment to them.

Some of the objectives of the treaties, such as regional, social, co-ordination of economic and other policies to achieve monetary union, are large and could include many things and would seem to imply political institutions. The people have not authorised the transfer of any executive, legislative or judicial powers to any future Community but this Community can begin to do many things to achieve their objectives that they are not doing now. Obligations may be imposed to achieve what is described as a European Economic Community which may be much more of a political community than they are at the moment, particularly having regard to the provisions of Article 235 of the Rome Treaty to the effect that the Council may adopt unanimously any measure to further the objectives of the treaty even if there is no express power.

Law which becomes a secret science is bad law. We are in a limited area at the moment where Community law is directly applicable. That is the area which is defined by reference to all matters which make for a unified or common not fragmented market. Community law is expressed in different terminology to that used by Irish draftsmen and lawyers. There are different styles involved. We will have to face the problem of reconciling laws in no way related. Although I have great sympathy with those criticised in the problem they were faced with, I must say that while it has been some assistance to practitioners to be told where the Government think that in a non-obliged way our laws are affected, an insufficient effort has been made to clear up in an express way conflicts that may well be there.

The United Kingdom have amended in an extensive way in schedules to the Act their laws which required amendment by way of reception into United Kingdom law of the law of the Community. I cannot see why the same has not been attempted here. There are two areas where directives are primarily operative where the British have clearly faced the problem. A directive merely defines the objective to be attained, leaving open to the national parliament the means to be adopted.

The British have amended their company law expressly to eliminate any problem. There is at least one problem of which I am aware which may arise because of the language of the directive with regard to company law and reconciling it with British company law. I cannot see why we have not done this, particularly as the directive calls on all companies to set forth their capital on their notepaper, failing to recognise that there are some companies operating under Irish law without any capital. These are companies limited by guarantee without a share capital. The British have solved that problem by enacting a section which expresses the directive and applies it only to companies with a share capital.

There is another area in which a substantial change in the law will take immediate effect from 1st January next. That is in the field of competition. The famous Article 85 deals with exclusive dealing agreements, sole agencies, licences, know-how arrangements and alleged abuses of industrial property. In the Wilhelm case, to which I have already referred, the European Court has gone very far in accepting what is known as the double-barrier theory with regard to restrictions on competition. They have accepted that you can have a national law which contains its own method of removing restrictive practices side by side with the Community law on the same matter. Provided the national law does not make illegal something which is exempted by the exemption section 3 of Article 85, both can stand. The British by amending their restrictive practices code seem to have made that possible. I do not know why we have not done this.

I should have liked to have seen in the White Paper an account not only of what has been done in this area but an account of what it is proposed to do. We will have to face this question of reconciling existing law with new laws. The field of insurance and exchange control immediately arise. The laws relative to these will change. That is quite clear from the terms of the treaty. It may take some time to change the law on insurance because of considerable problems in that field. The nature of the change to be contemplated should be given consideration, as early as possible.

In patent law if an employee in the course of his employment invents something the invention becomes the property of the employer by virtue of either an express or an implied term of employment. This may or may not be good law. The proposed European patent will make that matter one for the domestic law of the country concerned. You can have a European patent which can be got by the employee applying to the European Patent Office if he is in a country giving him the right. The employer could come to the Irish Patent Office and get a patent for the same thing. The matter could then be determined by who is there first.

European Community law has been described as a reflection on the Community level of continental administrative law. The European Court has power to annual measures which violate community law or represent a misuse of power, or it can decide that a measure should be taken where the Council of the Commission had failed to act. In the latter one the Court has taken a German concept which the French do not have.

It is very important that we develop here a proper system of administrative appeal tribunals. May I make this point which appears familiar to the Minister? Because of the possibility of proceedings for mandamus, prohibition or certiorari existing in relation to these tribunals, it would seem that the tribunals will not be the tribunals of last resort. There will be no obligation on them to refer Community questions to the European Court. This will mean that business enterprises, making their case before such tribunals and invoking Community rights, may find themselves, because of the existence of the limited powers as we know them a mandamus, prohibition or certiorari proceeding, unable to look to the European Court for assistance in the exercise of their Community rights. The matter may be of considerable human importance where, for example, we are dealing with the rights of migrant workers who may be claiming social insurance rights here and who may be unable to claim their rights beyond the tribunal in question.

It must be remembered that the business enterprise or the workers would appear to have no right of recourse against this State before the European Court. The best it could do would be to get the Commission to bring the member state, Ireland, to book if it was failing through this tribunal to give the European Community right to the particular enterprise or person.

What way will the request for preliminary rulings in inferior courts work? I presume it will be regulated by rules of court. Could we be told the state for which the amendments to these rules may be? What is the policy with regard to the question of the refusal of an inferior court to refer a matter to the European Court? Is this matter capable of appeal to the superior court? If it be not, should it not? Does it involve a change of the substance of law with regard to our courts to give this right of appeal? It would be proper to have it well ordered so that these matters should be finally determined by one court here which will get and develop experience on the matter.

I would end with a simple question —there is nothing barbed about it. It is a simple question which occurs to anyone who reads the equivalent UK provision. The UK have limited the powers to make subordinate legislation by providing that there should not be included any power to make any provision imposing or increasing taxation, or to make any provision taking effect from a date earlier than that of the making of the instrument containing the provision; or conferring any power to legislate by means of orders, rules, regulations or other subordinate instrument other than rules of procedure for any court or tribunal; or to create any new criminal offence, and so on. There are no similar restrictions in this Bill. I am sure that the matter has been considered and it may be that the protection will be found elsewhere. I should like to know where that protection is and if it is understood that there are these restrictions, because we have amended the Constitution by removing any provisions which would invalidate any of the acts or measures of the Community. I am not personally clear in which manner the Constitution can be invoked to protect the people from, for example, subordinate taxation or retroactive legislation, and so on. I would be grateful if I could have some information on these points.

I find it difficult to rise to speak, especially after listening to Senator Alexis FitzGerald with his legal mind. Mainly I wish to criticise Senator Keery's speech here yesterday, in particular where he stated that when directives are passed we can either hedge them, overlook them or hide them. If we are members of the EEC we should not make this type of statement in the Chamber. We should be full members of the Community and take an active part. If directives are passed it is binding on us to accept them and put them into effect.

The Minister stated that he would have a committee of the Dáil and Seanad to advise him. This committee should be formed and be an advisory one before the directives and regulations are passed. Our Parliament will be much reduced by this type of situation, where regulations and directives can be passed by the EEC and we will have little to say in the matter but to accept them.

Senator Keery quoted two directives, Directive 63/261 of 2 April, 1963:

laying down procedures for achieving freedom of establishment in agriculture in the territory of a Member State for nationals of other Community countries who have been continuously employed for two years as agricultural workers in that Member State.

and Directive 63/262 of 2 April, 1963:

laying down procedures for achieving freedom of establishment on agricultural holdings deserted or not cultivated for more than two years

He also quoted our own Land Act, 1965. Our Land Act of 1965 will have no effect as and from 1st January, 1973. We will then be bound by those two directives. I feel there is no importance attached to bringing the Land Act, 1965, before the Oireachtas for amendment because the changes have already been made.

I should like to ask the Minister what is the meaning of the expression "agricultural worker" in the context of this document? I know this point was debated during the campaign. At that time I spoke at many seminars and symposiums and tried to clarify the meaning of "agricultural worker". This question was raised at almost every meeting I attended. It was pointed out that any person from the EEC countries could, after two years, purchase land here. He could then get his son to work with him and after two more years he, in turn, could purchase more land. This is not the type of agricultural worker I envisage. I should also like to ask the Minister the meaning of the phrase "agricultural holdings deserted or not cultivated". What does "not cultivated" mean? We have land in this country which is described as not being cultivated but I believe much of this land is cultivated. It may be under grass but it is worked.

I should like to refer to the European Parliament. I am sure it was discussed here yesterday but I was unavoidably absent. The importance of the European Parliament is not fully recognised. We read in the papers the various speeches made at the European Parliament but they are not given the prominence they deserve. The European Parliament is put across in such a way as to make it appear unimportant.

We are sending ten Members of our Parliament to the European Parliament and I hope those Members will look upon it as an important job. I hope they will carry out efficiently what we expect of them. The parties who have the job of selecting those ten Members should see to it that the best men will be sent. I believe that some of the people who will go to Europe to represent us will be sent because they have requested to go there. They are anxious to go probably because they feel that it is a good place and they will have a good time there. I hope every Member of the Oireachtas and people in prominent positions in the country will keep a watchful eye on our Members in the European Parliament and point out to them the importance with which we regard that Parliament. They are our ambassadors and we must see to it that they do their work properly.

It has only come to the notice of most of us here that the Minister has had a bereavement in the family. We wish to offer him our sincere condolences.

The question has been raised by Senator Butler—I was not here to listen to all of yesterday's speeches but I am sure Senator Robinson raised this point too—of our representation in the European Parliament and how the ten Members will be, or have been, selected. The Seanad should have been considered far more seriously in that selection than it has been. I do not believe it is correct for the Dáil to arrogate to themselves the selection of the Members of the European Parliament without prior consultation with the Seanad.

If one analyses the situation correctly, Members of the Dáil who will be selected for Europe will have two duties to perform. They will have to look after our interests in Europe but they will also have one eye on their own constituency. They will have two jobs and perhaps may not do either properly. They will, inevitably, try to cut short their duties in Brussels to make sure that nobody gets in behind them in their own constituency. This position would not apply to Senators. Senators, in my opinion, may be better people—I do not mean better qualified people—who would attend to their duties in Europe far more conscientiously than Deputies who have to look after a constituency as well.

Senator Butler adverted in his statement to the selection of the ten Members. I believe far more consideration should have been given to the Seanad in the selection of those Members. It is only fair to say so here and now. Perhaps decisions have been taken on this matter already, but the personnel may need changing at some future date and the Seanad should be seriously considered in such an event. Senators do not have to look over their shoulder to see if they are going to be returned by the electorate. They may have to look over their shoulders to see who the county councillors are but that is all they have to look after. I wish to repeat that the Seanad should have received more consideration in those appointments.

I want to thank Senators for their contributions which have been very enlightening and I hope will be very useful. I shall not answer some of the points raised by Senator FitzGerald now partly because many of them are very interesting legal points with which I am not competent to deal.

This is a Bill of basic principles. There will be other legislation to deal with specific matters which bothered some Senators. They are matters which must come into question when we bring the Community law into our own law. Any comparison with the method of dealing with this legislation in Britain should take into account that our way of looking at it is better. If some people think that there is a lesser acknowledgment of democracy in our Bill they will have to take into account the fact that we had a referendum which not alone asked for the changes in the Constitution but also was, as was made clear beforehand in statements made by the Taoiseach, a consultative referendum as to whether or not we should become members of the Community and take on the obligations of it. That plus the safeguard clause in our legislation which has on occasions been overlooked, not alone by both Houses but also by me. The clause in our Bill which ensures the involvement of the parliament is stronger than anything in the British Act. It quite clearly demands that everything made by ministerial regulation shall be confirmed by statute or otherwise will lapse. It means that every decision to implement a directive will be confirmed by statute, and if not it will lapse. The difference is that it is not the subject of statute law when first made. We did this because we were faced with a situation of making ourselves capable of expeditiously taking on the obligations and the benefits of membership, while at the same time wanting to make sure that the Oireachtas had their full say.

It is quite clear to me that if Ministers decided to implement by statute everything it is binding on them by directives to implement, we could very quickly have both Houses of the Oireachtas rendered impotent and quite incapable of dealing not alone with Community legislation but with any other business. I do not think that either House would want this. As well as doing that, we could also reach a situation where we were not able to fulfil our obligations. Therefore, this law makes it possible for Ministers to do by regulation what needs to be quickly done. It makes it possible for them to select what needs to be done that way. It also makes it binding on them to have what they bring into our legislation by regulation passed through both Houses—through all stages of legislation—within six months. Any Minister making a ministerial regulation must have regard to this. I cannot imagine any Minister who has to come to both Houses for legislation to confirm his regulation wanting to make a regulation other than one which would be passed by the Oireachtas, if brought to it in the first instance. No Minister would want his regulations to lapse if they were an essential part of the fulfilment of our obligations to the Community. Therefore, in framing regulations to implement Community directives, Ministers will probably frame them with an eye to their going through the Dáil and Seanad.

There is therefore a double feature: there is influence on the Minister framing a regulation, and there is the fact of making it lapse if the Houses do not want it. It is a very strong safeguard, but we all overlook it, because the prominent feature of the Bill is to give power to Ministers to make regulations. That power disappears unless it is confirmed within six months by legislation and all the procedures of legislation.

I should like to refer to some notes to help answer points made by Senators. However, I would ask Senators to regard this as a Bill of principle. I believe that many of the suggestions and amendments I have seen and many of the doubts raised are based on misapprehensions of the purpose of the Bill. The distinction between regulations and directives is one of the things that caused us problems. For simplicity in explaning the matter to the public and because, in principle, they were intended to be quite different, we have always described a Community regulation as something which has direct application in the member countries, regardless of national parliaments. A directive is something which sets out the objective to be attained, but leaves to the national governments the method of attaining that objective. In detailed examination we have found that there is a grey area. There are some regulations which need ancillary legislation to make them fully effective, if not for their implementation. There are certainly some directives—or some parts of some directives and decisions— which are directly applicable. Our section 2 is based on this absence of a clear division. In other words, there is no clearly drawn line between the provisions which are and the provisions which are not directly applicable.

There are two individual cases which I wish to give to Senator Robinson, rather, to give the reference. They are: 1. Sace Case; No. 33/70 (1970), Common Market Law Reports, Vol. X, (p. 1), and 2. Franz Grad Case; No. 9/70 (1970), Common Market Law Reports, Vol. X, (p. 123). These are examples of EEC directives and decisions which are directly applicable. Having accepted that, Senators will see the need for Article 2. If we had had quite a clear distinction as we thought existed earlier on between directives and regulations, we might have been able to frame it in a different way. The situation being as it is, to achieve the effect we wanted the best way possible was to provide that the Treaties and Acts in toto should become part of our domestic law under the conditions laid down in the treaties. This may not be immediately clear. I have explained it several times in the Dáil and perhaps after a time, it will be accepted. I shall refer to it again on Committee Stage.

There was an objection to the Government implementing directives by ministerial order rather than by legislation, and there was a suggestion that this might be unconstitutional. I dealt with this before. The amendment which the people made to the Constitution last May was drafted so as to save from invalidity a provision necessitated by the obligations of membership which otherwise would have been in conflict with the Constitution. Senators will see then that we have, already, delegated legislation. We never regarded delegated legislation as being in conflict with the Constitution. It is only had it been in conflict with the Constitution that we would be seeking, in this legislation under the Amendment to the Constitution to make it possible on the grounds that it was necessitated by membership. Therefore, we are not stating anything new in relation to our Constitution by having delegated legislation by ministerial regulation.

When I say that it is not in conflict with the Constitution, it was suggested in the Dáil that under this legislation it was in conflict with the Constitution. My comment to the Deputy who raised it was that this was not doing a service to our European attitude, because what was being questioned is something which exists. There were 350 such statutory orders last year; presumably there were as many every other year and nobody ever questioned their constitutionality until we came to meet our obligations of European membership which are very pressing, and need to be met. Until now the power to make ministerial regulations we provide for here has not been found to be unconstitutional, and there is nothing in this Bill that would make it less constitutional than any power to make ministerial regulations given before.

It was mentioned that no provision had been made for the recall of the Seanad. Senator Nash said that this was reasonable because the role of the Seanad normally follows on legislation in the Dáil. The Seanad does not have difficulty in coming together. The purpose of this section was in case Members would want to question a new regulation. Deputies who put forward an amendment to it in the Dáil felt that the Government might find itself having gone beyond the time provided—now six months—and requiring to have Dáil confirmation, and find the Dáil in recess. The attitude of Deputies who wanted to amend this section was "If it is going to help the Government we will not press this amendment—it is up to the Government to ensure that they get their confirmatory legislation through before any long recess." I do not see anything in principle against providing for the Seanad being recalled but they can do it without putting it into this Bill.

My speech is a bit disconnected because I am going through points made by different Senators. Senator Robinson suggested that there is insufficient Parliamentary control. Our confirmatory provision is absolutely necessary, or otherwise any regulation lapses and is no longer functioning or no longer law. The original Bill drafted provided that these confirmatory Bills would come the following year. I gathered from the debate that this was a bit long. If there was some law enacted by a ministerial regulation that was not liked it would be a long time to wait until the following year and we agreed on every six months. In actual practice having this six months' provision, as Senator Nash has pointed out, may mean full legislation and debate on regulations three times a year.

We have a strong Parliamentary safeguard, stronger than anything in the British Bill. I do not like making comparisons, but they have been made for me and I have to answer them. The Bill was said to lack explicit repeals and amendments. Most Senators will know that when a provision in existing domestic law is in conflict with directly applicable community law, the existing domestic law will be automatically amended or repealed to the extent of that conflict. This is the principle of implied amendment and repeal. Therefore it is not necessary to amend or repeal specifically. Specific amendment and repeal would involve exhaustive and time consuming examination of our statute law at a time when I would like to say our resources are fully extended and devoted to the preparations for membership. Any assertion of laziness in the preparation of the annex to the explanatory memorandum is misleading. Our resources are fully extended in making it possible for us to undertake the obligations of membership and to go through this exhaustive examination of statute law at this time would be to take people away from something which is more essential. The House will have to appreciate that our resources in manpower and talent in this country are not unlimited.

The list of the enactments in the appendix to the memorandum is the result of examination by the State Departments, but it does not purport to be exhaustive. It could not in any country. Nobody could be quite sure that any list is exhaustive, and it is as good as Departments can do to give such an indication. Since it is not exhaustive, provisions for amendments or specific repeals based on the list would be selective and we felt that this would be confusing rather than helpful to the public.

Finally in this question of repeal and amendment, there is a large area of doubt which can be resolved only by decision of the courts, because it is proper to the courts rather than to the Oireachtas. These are reasons why we did not try to do it. The Taoiseach mentioned in the Dáil that there would be frequent statute law revision Acts. We will depend on frequent revision of the statute law to make it tidier for the public and lawyers. Given an indication that certain laws are affected by Community regulations this means that there will be an indication to whoever is interested that these have been affected and if the Community law is in conflict then these laws are repealed or amended. The Departments will be available to people having problems of this nature to help guide them. I feel that it is the job of a lawyer to find his way once he knows that there is a possibility of domestic law having been amended or repealed according to this principle. He will get help from the Departments, but they could not undertake to do the job for him. One representative of the law said that no lawyer in Dublin knows the law, and then expected the lawyers in Foreign Affairs to write it down for him. There is no magic in Foreign Affairs that makes it possible for a lawyer to find an easy way in a difficult situation to solve a problem which cannot be solved by lawyers in practice outside. Our resources are fully extended, but it is possible for it to be done, and it is a function of the lawyers themselves to do the research necessary.

Senator Robinson asked if we will have the backlog of directives, which are now operative, implemented by the 1st January. We will in so far as it is necessary to have it done. Even though we want to have them all done by the 1st January the obligations may not fall all together on us on that date, but, depending on the passing of the basic legislation I hope to be able to have the regulations made and therefore be able to take on our obligations.

As regards the disappointment expressed at the result of the summit in relation to the institutions of the Community, it is likely that this country would want direct elections to the Community in the early stages. It would suit us. At this time we have no experience whatever of the functions of the institutions. We are secure because in the Council of Ministers where the decision making is done there will be no decision taken against the vital interests of any one member, As a Government, that gives us a very strong position. However, we feel that the development and strengthening of the institutions of Europe would be totally to our benefit since we are a small country.

But until we have experience of the operation of the institutions we cannot argue with any conviction or force about the reforms which should be made. The Taoiseach supported at the summit the Dutch proposal for direct elections by universal suffrage. Apart from the principle of wanting to strengthen the institutions, in real practice it may be better for us to have direct elections. As Senator Belton stated it will be difficult for any Member of the Dáil to leave his constituency as our system of voting encourages competition when you leave your constituency even for a short period. We calculate it would take approximately 100 days in a year to properly carry out the duties of a Member of the European Parliament. This could discourage TDs from wanting to become Members of the European Parliament and for that reason it could be more suitable for Senators.

There has been no selection of members yet nor have we decided on a method. The methods of selection in the Dáil to date have been consultations between the parties. There was no question of excluding Senators.

I hope the Independents will be included. The Minister said consultation with the parties. We are not a party.

I gather that in the Seanad all are independents. If we had this legislation it is possible that the agreed method of doing it would be provided for by ministerial regulation. I will bring the views of the Seanad to the notice of the Government. I agree it would be easier for Senators. We should seek for the strengthening of institutions and we will probably play an active part in that once we get the feel of how the institutions of Europe are working. We are fully extended in becoming members this year. It is a very big achievement for this country. We will play a big part in strengthening the institutions as that is in our national interest.

Senator Alexis FitzGerald mentioned the possibility of very clever people being impatient with delays caused by the needs of politics. The Commission as envisaged now will be made up of politicians who should have some experience of how to assess what legislation will fall for want of public support.

Senator McDonald was worried about the "wide powers", and Senator Jessop mentioned there would be 200 ministerial regulations, rather than my educated guess of 20. We were on two different wavelengths. The Community regulations, which constitute the vast majority of the legislation, consisted last year of approximately 2,900. The ministerial regulations would implement European directives and would be perhaps 20 in number in a normal year. There were about 400 directives last year. Many of these would be possible of implementation under existing law and others would be administratively implemented. Having got over the backlog, there would be no more than about 20 ministerial regulations per year. There will therefore be no massive addition to the volume of statutory instruments or accretion of ministerial powers.

Senator Cranitch mentioned an unhappy advertisement, not by the Commission but by a member of the Secretariat of the Council. The Secretary General of the Council has been approached by our Ambassador and he had been assured there is no question of any Irish citizen not being eligible for recruitment because of the requirement that English be the mother tongue. I hope in future the council will follow the Commission's formula when drafting advertisements, seeking people with a thorough knowledge of English. This was not intended as an offence but people might feel excluded by the use of the words "mother tongue".

Senator Russell mentioned the needs to preserve the powers of the Oireachtas. I should like again to point to the confirmation of ministerial regulations which would have to be done by full legislation.

Senator Jessop stated there was no mention of human health. This is true. The progress to date in the Community, which is reflected in its legislation, has dealt more with the fields of economy and trading. These matters include animal health. Social developments have been slow. The overall Summit decisions indicate that the accent would be away from economic trading on to people. We are looking forward to a new development in Europe that would be concerned with people as individuals and the social aspects should get more support in future.

I hope the Minister will agree we cannot have a healthy economic community without healthy people.

I agree. In reply to Senator Butler, an agricultural labourer may be defined in some Acts for the purpose of those particular Acts. In terms of Community regulations about the land purchase, two have been adopted. One states that, if a man works as an agricultural labourer for two years in a country of the Community, he can buy land in that country. Our own authorities would have to decide if he fulfilled the requirements. There is no problem from the point of view of the Minister for Lands in this regulation. The second one states that, if land lies idle for two years, it would be possible for any citizen of the Community to buy that land. The full right of establishment is in draft but has not been adopted. The Minister for Lands is quite satisfied that this does not create a problem for us.

Can the Minister say what he means by "lying idle"?

It is not defined. It will be for our Department of Lands to say if it comes within that term and to permit or not permit the sale.

Just because it is not tilled as grazing land it would come under this?

Grazing land is not idle. Land that is being used is not lying idle.

How could land be idle?

I think "fallow" is the term used. I have a limited vocabulary for ordinary use. I did not mean to imply that land which is dancing around is all right and land that is solid is not. I meant it is not being made use of.

What about Land Commission land that is lying idle?

I have my own problems.

Although it is lying idle the Land Commission usually let the land.

I do not think we need worry too much. The Department of Lands will be able to handle the situation as far as the European establishment regulations already made are concerned.

A Senator

This would raise a problem——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am not quite clear whether this discussion is more than a little enlightening but it is becoming more than a little disorderly. Let us proceed.

I appreciate the points raised. Senator Robinson raised the question of amendment. This is a Bill of principle. If you put in all the amendments and the limitations you are departing from the principle of making it possible for a Minister quickly to make a regulation subject to having it confirmed by legislation. He does not escape going through all the legislative procedures in the Dáil and Seanad. When any amendment was put to me that would put a limitation on the Minister it was put and argued in the absence of any mention of section 4 which made it absolutely essential to go through the legislative process or it would lapse. In dealing with the Bill as one of principle I saw no need to exclude matters. The purpose of excluding them would be that the Minister would, in the first instance, have to come to the Dáil and Seanad rather than make his regulation and come back in six months. The amendment has been put up in the terms of the British Act which is quite a different one. Ours is a better Bill with a much stronger safeguard. From listening to the debate there is just one aspect I would like to mention and that is the creation of a new criminal offence. It is necessary to be able to do this but perhaps there should be a limitation on the degree of criminal offence. Perhaps we should say that it would not be possible to create a new indictable offence. It is somewhat illogical of me in so far as all regulations made by Ministers will be subject to Dáil and Seanad approval or they lapse. It is the one amendment that was raised in the Dáil and Seanad that I feel might be brought into the Bill. I will give the matter some thought.

I was very encouraged to hear Senator Keery's remarks. He took an attitude which I hope we all will take not alone in the Houses of the Oireachtas but in business, agriculture, trade unions and management. We must make ourselves better able to cope. He did criticise our Library here and the various facilities at our disposal. We have agreed to set up a committee. It is not appropriate to this Bill as it is one of principle. It should be a joint committee. The best approach in setting up a joint committee is to have expediency resolutions in each House of the Oireachtas to agree on the numbers, terms of reference, et cetera. The amount of legislation being done in the European institutions is so great that no Member of the Dáil or Seanad could keep abreast of it. It would be like trying to keep up with every decision being made in every Civil Service Department. Ninety per cent of the legislation last year in Europe dealt with the administration of the common agricultural policy. It would be quite ridiculous if each Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas tried to keep up with that. There are some pieces of legislation such as the right of establishment in land which contain real political decisions and are matters of importance. Other parliaments have had committees which have become swamped with the amount of documentation coming into them. The committee which we propose to set up should have its own secretariat. Senator Jessop mentioned several committees. The functions of the committee will cover several Departments of State and in that sense there could be several committees. But one committee with an adequate high level civil service secretariat with access to State Departments would make it possible for Deputies and Senators to know the significance of various regulations coming out. Draft Community legislation will be placed in the Library. The confidential matters are limited. They usually relate to financial matters or the taking of decisions in negotiations. The main legislation, which is not confidential, will be available in the Library.

I should like, if it were possible, to take the Committee Stage of this Bill next week. We have to bring in about 70 regulations to meet the backlog. I look forward to hearing any further points which the Senators would like to raise on the Committee Stage. May I thank the Seanad for the enlightenment I have received.

The Minister would like to have the Committee Stage of this Bill next week. Does the Leader of the House wish to take the Committee Stage of any other Bill before that?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This question does not arise until the Second Stage has been passed.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is it agreed to take the next Stage next Wednesday?

There is no objection as far as we are concerned provided something else does not come in before it. Does Senator E. Ryan, the acting Leader of the House, agree this should be taken? We are now going to deal with the Second Stage of the Marriages Bill.

This will be given priority next week.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 29th November, 1972.
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