Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1975

Vol. 81 No. 17

Local Authorities (Traffic Wardens) Bill, 1975: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

This is a short Bill the main object of which is to enable local authorities to make arrangements for the enforcement of parking controls in their areas in consultation with the Garda Commissioner by establishing a traffic warden service. The Bill also provides that the fixed penalties under the "fine-on-the-spot" system operations will be paid to the local authorities and that prosecutions for nonpayment-of penalties will be taken by the local authorities.

The so called "fine-on-the-spot" system was set up under section 103 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961. The present "ticket" offences include parking in a prohibited place, stopping on a clearway, parking in areas in which parking is subject to fees and not paying such fees—parking meter or disc areas. Regulations to be made under this Bill will specify the offences for which wardens employed by local authorities will be enabled to affix tickets. These offences will be the same as the present "ticket" offences apart from the offence of the non-display of a current tax disc.

The Bill as passed by the Dáil has been amended to clarify that the powers of wardens do not extend beyond offences relating to parking and the non-display of a current tax disc.

The so called "fine-on-the-spot" system was organised and operated initially by the Garda authorities but as its operation extended, particularly in Dublin, following the introduction of parking meters, it became apparent that the service was absorbing a disproportionate amount of the time and resources of trained Garda personnel. Since 1970 Dublin Corporation have operated the service with the concurrence of the Garda Commissioner and at present the corporation are responsible for the recruitment and supervision of the wardens and assist the Garda in administering the collection of payments for parking "tickets". It is desirable to give the full operational service to the local authorities to operate it if they decide to do so. This principle is in keeping with the terms of the Conroy Commission Report, which recommended that the traffic warden service should be wholly the responsibility of local authorities and divorced entirely from the Garda Síochána.

At present nearly 40 wardens are employed by Dublin Corporation. Wardens are also employed by Cork Corporation and by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána in Limerick, Tralee, Killarney and Athlone. Under the Bill local authorities who decide to establish a warden service must first consult with the Garda Síochána. About 20 additional authorities are seeking the appointment of wardens in their areas.

The financing of this service will normally be paid for by receipts from the payments collected. The only persons who will be liable to make payments are, of course, those who break the law by infringing parking regulations and who do not display a current tax disc. If losses are incurred by a local authority on a service properly instituted and operated after consultation with the Garda the Minister will have power under the Bill to consider the grant of financial assistance to that authority.

The Seanad will appreciate from what I have said that this Bill does not extend the range of offences beyond those which are already the subject of "fines-on-the-spot", apart from the non-display of a current tax disc. The payment of road tax is, of course, in the interest of all motorists and of the local authorities who have responsibilities for the improvement and maintenance of roads.

Mr. E. Ryan

The Bill is, generally, acceptable and certainly I have no hesitation in agreeing that an opportunity of taking a function like this from the already heavily-burdened Garda Síochána or helping them to carry it out should be taken. To that extent I certainly welcome the Bill.

We must always be careful about a situation where powers normally carried out by the Garda are being transferred to some other body or people and consequently it was essential that this Bill be examined carefully to ensure that the power given to the Minister by regulation is not too wide, is not such as to enable him or his successor in due course to transfer other functions which, possibly, would be too wide and would lead to abuse. The Bill as it is now amended provides for the necessary restriction of the functions which can be conferred on traffic wardens and for that reason it is acceptable and, as I said, a good Bill.

One of the features of it which may cause difficulties in the future, may cause criticism and annoyance, is the question of the financing of the traffic wardens. It seems to be envisaged that the traffic wardens will pay their own way in the sense that their wages and so on will be paid out of the fines which they are responsible for collecting or for pointing out that an offence has been committed. This of course means that in certain areas they may be expected, in order to ensure that they pay their way, to be more officious than is really necessary.

This is a rather disturbing feature of the Bill because there will be a situation where motorists in the area or in the town are reasonably law-abiding but where they will, in effect, be harrassed by the traffic wardens who will ensure that the service is self-financing. The Minister has power to make grants in certain circumstances. He has already indicated that he would do this only in very exceptional circumstances. This leads to a situation where the local authority on the one hand will have to find extra funds to pay for this service or, on the other hand, must try to encourage the traffic wardens to be over officious and in that way raise the finance to pay for the service.

I suppose this is something we cannot say much about at this stage. It will have to be watched as time goes on. I should hope the Minister would be liberal in future about giving grants in circumstances where the citizens behave in a law-abiding way and few fines are imposed but where nevertheless the wardens have to be paid.

I am not quite sure what is the distinction between subsections (2) and (3) of section 3. Subsection (3) reads:

Where a traffic warden has reasonable grounds for believing that an offence to which this section applies, involving the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle...

In subsection (2) there is no reference to a mechanically propelled vehicle and this suggests that the warden will be dealing with offences which do not involve mechanically propelled vehicles. It is difficult, in the restricted form which the Bill now takes, to envisage a situation where a mechanically propelled vehicle would not be involved.

What is the reason for these two subsections? Does this mean that an offence can be committed without there being a mechanically propelled vehicle involved? In such case the notice of the offence would have to be delivered to the person, whereas when a mechanically propelled vehicle is involved it is sufficient to affix the notice to the vehicle. The mere affixing of a notice to a vehicle is a rather unsatisfactory procedure because it happens that adults and children take away these notices and the owner of the vehicle is not aware of the allegation that he has committed an offence. If possible, some other notice should be given as well as affixing a notice to the vehicle. We all know that notices are not the only items to be removed from cars nowadays, that aerials, spotlamps and so on are taken also. Therefore, the removal of a notice is a very simple matter and something which takes place very often.

Therefore the person who does not have a vehicle, according to subsection (2), is really in a much stronger position because in that case the notice must be delivered to him. I should like the Minister in his reply to explain the distinction between subsection (2) and subsection (3) and to say whether, even though a vehicle is involved, it is possible for the warden or some member of the police to send the notice to the person whom it is alleged has committed the offence as well as affixing it to the vehicle, which is a rather unsatisfactory way of giving notice to a person.

The other point which I should like to refer to is in subsection (4) of section 3, paragraph (b) which reads:

...that local authority may receive the payment, issue a receipt for it and retain the money so paid for disposal in accordance with this Act, and no payment so received shall in any circumstances be recoverable by the person who made it.

This seems to be going to unnecessary lengths. Local authorities make mistakes occasionally. I am sure traffic wardens make mistakes, too. Perfectly law-abiding citizens who are intimidated or overawed by the system and who think they are liable to make a payment for which they are not liable may be the victim of a mistake. However, this subsection says that this payment shall in no circumstances be recoverable by the person who made it. This seems to be going unnecessarily far. I wonder if there was some particular purpose behind the drafting of this subsection.

Apart from that I do not think there are any points I wish to raise. Generally, I welcome this Bill which will enable traffic wardens to perform a useful function.

Comdt. Sanfey

Like Senator Eoin Ryan I also welcome this Bill, seeking to extend the authority of traffic wardens to local authorities throughout the country. The introduction of the traffic warden system, while it has shortcomings which I shall mention later, has done a lot to improve the general traffic situation and, most of all, to take some of this responsibility from the Garda.

Like most of my colleagues in the House, I do a fair amount of travelling around the country and I have become very conscious in the last couple of years of the need in provincial towns for a traffic warden system. I am aware that there are a couple of major centres which have the system but there are many other areas which do not have it.

We had some political activity in the west of Ireland earlier this year and for that reason, among others, I made a number of trips to and from Galway. I must say that some of the towns on that route are shining examples of the need for a traffic warden service. There was one town in particular, not too far from Galway on the main road, where, despite the fact that there were double yellow lines marked on both sides of the street, there were always cars parked on both sides of the street. Of course, with heavy traffic coming against a motorist this abuse of the parking system makes it very difficult for a motorist to get through.

I had the experience earlier this year of being held up for some considerable time in this particular town. While waiting I was chatting, through the car window, with a young garda, who was very civil about the whole situation. I asked him if he could not do anything about the traffic chaos and he explained that a number of the gardaí were away on security duty, in court, and so on. One of the things he said which remained in my mind was that traffic control in that town would require two men to walk up and down the street all day, doing nothing else but putting tickets on cars. What I like about this Bill is that it seems to be providing precisely for this need in this town where the Garda are overburdened with their duties of preventing and detecting crime. This Bill will provide the local authority concerned with the power to appoint traffic wardens to do precisely what the garda pointed out as being necessary: to have people observe the parking regulations at all times. What I said about a few towns on the route to Galway applies with equal force to towns all over the country. I saw the same traffic chaos on my away to Killarney and to Cork recently.

I said at the outset, and I repeat, that the traffic warden service has made considerable improvement in the traffic situation in Dublin, but I consider that there is room for improvement in the service. I was astonished to hear the Minister saying in his opening remarks that there are only 40 traffic wardens in Dublin city. I spend my working life in the area of Dublin in which we are at the moment, which is the area of heaviest traffic. In my view it would take four or five times the present number of traffic wardens to regulate the traffic properly. Allowing for the fact that there are 40 wardens operating under the local authority in Dublin and considering that the traffic restrictions are in force from 8.30 a.m. until 6.30 p.m. and that the traffic wardens work a 40-hour week and therefore must operate in shifts, and allowing for the fact that some of them are bound to be sick or on holidays, it follows that there cannot at any time be anything like 40 wardens on duty.

The result is that the service operated by the wardens in Dublin is, in my view, only a hit and miss service. It is commonplace, walking along Stephen's Green, where there are parking meters, to see numerous cars getting away with overparking—the red flag has come up in the meter but there is no parking ticket on the car. It seems to be the system—I do not blame the wardens for it because they are too few in number—that the warden will stroll along there in the morning and penalise any cars he finds overstaying the time allowed at the meters. But he is then obliged to go somewhere else for a couple of hours.

The result is that the scheme is working on a hit and miss basis, and this induces motorists to take a chance. If there were more wardens on duty and if a motorist could be certain that if he broke the parking regulations he would be penalised, there would be a greater inducement for motorists to be more scrupulous in regard to overstaying the time at meters or parking illegally in other places.

On the question of meters, it seems to me from observations over the last couple of years that wardens concentrate their energies on overstaying time at meters rather than what I would regard as a more serious offence— parking in dangerous places where yellow lines prohibit parking or parking on clearways. I do not for a moment condone overparking at meters. The introduction of the meter system was designed to give motorists generally a better chance to use the parking facilities. There may be sympathetic cases of persons who are accidentally delayed, overstay their time by a couple of minutes and come back to find a £2 parking ticket on the car. At the same time the restrictions of these meters should be observed.

It seems to me that wardens in their duties take the line of least resistance. It is easier to walk along by a line of meters and issue tickets to cars who have overstayed their time rather than go around moving cars from dangerous places. Here in Kildare Street, where parking is totally restricted, it is commonplace at any time of the day to find three or four cars illegally parked. I have yet to see one of them being towed away.

With regard to the system of the £2 fine for parking offences generally I think there is a good case to be made for a differential system of fines for more serious offences. At the moment one incurs a £2 fine for overstaying the time at a meter and likewise a £2 fine for parking on yellow lines at a prohibited spot. The only extra risk incurred by parking on the yellow lines is that one runs the risk of having the car towed away with a consequential heavier penalty to have it taken out of the pound. It is obviously a far more serious offence for a person deliberately to park his or her car on a spot where parking is prohibited, because in that case it is a danger to other traffic, than accidentally to overstay the two hour limit at a parking meter. Consideration should therefore be given to a system of differential fines. I am not going to suggest rates. It is within the competence of the Minister's Department or the local authorities concerned to come up with an appropriate system of differential fining.

An example of what I had in mind is this. We all are familiar with Grafton Street, one of the main traffic arteries in the city. Parking is totally prohibited in that street for the private motorist. There is some allowance made for parking during certain hours for loading and unloading vehicles. I drive down Grafton Street most days and I do not think I have ever driven down Grafton Street without seeing cars parked on either side of the street. Once in a blue moon one sees a corporation towcar operating, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Parking cars in a street like Grafton Street, where there is a heavy flow of traffic, has the obvious effect of causing considerable obstruction to traffic. It is commonplace for traffic to be jammed up as far as Stephen's Green and Harcourt Street because of the lack of consideration of a couple of shoppers who parked their cars in Grafton Street while they went into shops to make a purchase.

I mentioned towcars. I was surprised to learn on inquiry that there are only four of these operating in the city of Dublin. Again this is totally inadequate. I would not tell the Minister how many there should be, but allowing for normal servicing requirements it is hardly likely that the four towcars are all available to operate at any given time. I suggest that the number should be doubled or trebled. If ever a service paid for itself I am sure this would.

Another abuse which is widespread in this area of Dublin is the practice known as feeding meters. Senators will be aware that the regulations provide that a car shall not be parked for more than two hours at a meter. As far as I know—I hope the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—it is an offence, having left one's car for two hours at a meter, to put more coins into the meter and thereby extend the time. This is a practice which is very widespread in Dublin and it is defeating the object of the scheme. The object of the introduction of parking meters was to allow the general public to make the fullest use of the very limited parking facilities available and obviously this cannot be done if selfish people are parking their cars all day and feeding the meters.

I have frequently seen in my travels around this area of the city what are obviously employees of offices coming out and slipping coins into a meter— messenger boys, and young girls from nearby offices. It is not hard to guess that these cars belong to their employers who are availing of the meters to park their cars all day and thereby denying people who have a legitimate right to park their cars to find a parking place. We all know the frustration of people, especially visitors to the city, when they have to drive their cars around blocks for hours on end in trying to find a parking place while selfish people are coming in and parking their cars all day and feeding the meters. This seems to be done on a semi-professional basis within sight of this House. There are a couple of hotels in two directions not a hundred yards from the main gate and I have seen uniformed employees of these hotels spending their whole day making forays into the street to feed meters in the vicinity. We are led to believe that this is being done on behalf of clients who are using the facilities of the hotel and are giving the uniformed employees the money to feed the meters. I do not want to make too much of a song and dance about this matter but I would be glad if the Minister would direct the attention of the local authority to it.

In certain areas in Dublin meters are erected on clearways. These meters become inoperative during the clearway hours. I am aware that there is a notice in writing inscribed on the meter warning people that, say, between the hours of 5 p.m. and 6.30 p.m. there is a clearway. I think the practice has been introduced of painting a red band on these meters. I do not think this is enough.

I had an experience a few weeks ago in College Green when a motorist, obviously from the country, at about 5.20 p.m. asked me if I had some 5p pieces as he wanted to park his car at the meter. I advised him not to park there because his car would be towed away. He could not understand this because there was a parking meter there and as he was about to put money in the meter he thought he was all right. I pointed out the notice on the meter to him warning that he was not entitled to park at that hour. For the protection of innocent people like that who parked their cars in good faith and found them towed away to the pound at Christ Church, there should be a more elaborate type of notice displayed on the meter drawing their attention to the fact that they may not park between certain hours. It should not be beyond the imagination of the local authority to superimpose some sort of a metal notice on top of the meter drawing the attention of the motorist more emphatically to the fact that he was not entitled to park there at certain hours.

Mention of clearways reminds me that this, again, is an area where the service seems to be totally inadequate. I travel along a clearway on my way home in the evenings and it is commonplace to find the clearway obstructed at several places by cars which are illegally parked. I am referring especially now to the area between Kelly's Corner and the top of Rathmines Road where the road branches off to Rathgar. That whole area is designated as a clearway on the left-hand side of the road going southwards in the evening at certain hours. As far as I can observe over the months and years there is one traffic warden who seems to have the duty of patrolling the whole length of the Rathmines road from Lee's Store at the top opposite the Stella Cinema, right down to Kelly's Corner. How one man could be expected to do that beats me. He does not even have a motor bike, which the warden supervisors seem to have. To keep that road clear of traffic would require at least three wardens during clearway hours.

As I said at the outset, I welcome the introduction of the service. It can only do good. Although I have heard some concern expressed about the dangers of giving powers such as are envisaged in this Bill, I do not have any worries about it myself. I am certain the local authorities can be relied on to continue to recruit intelligent men who would not overstep their powers. I would not have any worries about the introduction of a Gestapo or any of the fears that have been expressed in the other House. While I have made some criticisms of the service I welcome the extension of it and, in particular, I welcome the benefits that the service in Dublin has brought to the motorist in Dublin.

Mr. Brennan

I endorse what previous speakers have said. There are just a few points I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister if that is necessary: I hope it is not. I have been doing a good deal of motoring down through the years and have had 50 years accident-free driving. I have some claim to fame, as one might say. I should like traffic wardens to get a reasonable amount of training. Very often, unknown to themselves I am sure, they seem to be in a peevish mood. If you have a good-looking blonde with you, the wardens go easy on you.

I regret that the general public do not take the interest in this matter that they should. Far too often I see trucks overloaded, with the loads badly built and badly secured—for example, timber trucks. The chains and ropes that are used would not hold a magpie. They are allowed to go free because the Garda have far too much to do. The strange thing is that they get away with it.

The tyres on many vehicles are very often completely unsuitable. You find radials on the back and something else on the front and the owners or drivers do not care. The moment an emergency happens the vehicle takes over: that has been my experience. I guarantee that in the city of Dublin you could not pull up at any two garages and get the air compressor gauges to correspond. You will find a difference of at least five, six or possibly ten pounds between them. That is not an offence but it should be.

I regret to say that I have come across far too many fatal accidents in my time. I came across a fatal accident at Ardee when returning from this House. It involved a professional man driving a sports model. I regretted the accident of course, but I did take the trouble to stop, as I think everybody should—not to cause any annoyance— but if there has been an accident people should try to see what was the cause of it. I found that the tyres were completely unsuitable for that vehicle. It blew under the bumper and went like a corkscrew. Much more attention could be paid to these matters by traffic wardens if they were given a reasonable amount of training so that they could at least remind people of the danger not only to themselves but to others in using unsuitable tyres. I regret that in my town during the last month or so there have been far too many fatal accidents, some of them avoidable and some of them unavoidable.

Senator Ryan referred to mechanically-propelled vehicles. I do not know how you would define in law a trailer. When we removed corners and so gave a reasonable view of the road, we found people coming along with these large trailers behind trucks, parking them and obstructing the view. Nobody seems to have any control over these people. Although the urban council offered them accommodation in what was regarded as the fair green, they will not pay the small fee that we ask them to pay. I am satisfied that the Minister and his advisers have given the whole matter a fair amount of thought, but these are a few points that perhaps deserve mention.

Motorbikes are a great nuisance when used with what was regarded in our younger days as the "open exhaust". These bikes create an appalling noise. I always understood that this is an offence under a previous Act but it has never been enforced. Is there no way by which one can control the emission of this awful gas from trucks and buses? During the first World War gas masks were used and I think they should be reissued. They talk about smoking being bad for your lungs but the fumes that come from these diesel engines are very bad. Surely something could be done about this.

I welcome this Bill. I welcome anything that tends towards achieving safety on the roads. Last night I heard on the radio that in Britain and Northern Ireland you must have a yearly check on any vehicle that is ten years old.

Mr. W. O'Brien

Traffic wardens are nothing new, as all Senators are aware. We have them in most cities. We have traffic wardens in Limerick and they are doing a fine job. There is nothing new in this Bill other than the extension of that service to the supervising of the display of tax discs. Those duties are too small for a Garda force, particularly at present when if a garda were expected to supervise parking, somebody might be parking a car, and parking it properly but there could be something in it that was not in keeping with the law—a bomb, for instance. For that reason, it is a time of emergency for the garda. The Garda force is not adequate at the moment to deal with those trifling duties. It is time we transferred those small duties from them. I often wonder about the garda's other duties, such as investigations in regard to dog licences and so on, if it is not a waste of time for a trained man to be doing those jobs. Possibly a warden could do something like this. We have the school wardens who are doing a very good job. In the rural towns, where we may not have the school wardens, I wonder if the warden service envisaged in the Bill could be utilised. In Newcastle West, Rathkeale, Kilmallock, we lack school wardens and the lives of children can be in danger.

When I listen to the radio in the morning it amuses me to hear of a traffic jam in Cork city or Dublin. We have traffic jams three out of seven mornings in rural towns. Take Newcastlewest on a Friday or Saturday; it is actually impossible to get through. It would not be reasonable at present to expect a garda to be on duty in such places. At present, it is not easy to get a garda in the barracks because they are on Border duty, trying to make sure that the lives of the people here are safe and that the lives of the people across the Border are safe. That is more important than this minor offence of irregular parking. For that reason, this Bill is a very good idea.

It has been said in the other House that because the local warden would know people it would be difficult for him to perform his duties. I believe that where a garda is five, ten or 15 years stationed in a particular area, he is better known there and he knows the people there better than the younger person who would probably be appointed to this job. The fact that the man appointed would be a local man would not be an impediment in the performance of his duties. Somebody mentioned in the other House that a county manager might, at a time of shortage of money, tell the wardens, that it was important to collect all they could. Should we take that line about collecting money? The same possibility is open to the Minister for Justice who could convey the message down the country to the Garda to collect as many fines as possible and get as many people into court as possible so as to provide money. That does not hold at all.

As regards training, I do not think wardens would need much training. Any ordinary individual could go to a car and see if the tax disc was displayed or if the car was parked in the proper place. The convent in Kilmallock have their own school wardens and none of those children is yet 12 years old. In the morning, at lunch hour and in the evening two school wardens take up duty while the children are coming or going and give a magnificent service. Credit is due to the nuns for the manner in which they have trained these wardens.

It has been suggested that the new wardens may create difficulties for people parking cars, that they should be trained and should have a good personality. We are all human and the people appointed would be human. Anybody feels annoyed if he finds a note indicating that he has committed an offence but if such regulations were not in force, we would be obliged to leave our cars many miles outside the city.

Senator E. Ryan referred to the notification being sent to the person who committed an offence in case that he may not get his notice when he comes back. That is in operation in the city at the moment. The garda sergeant sends out that notice after a certain time. I am sure the local authority staff will also be in a position to do so. It would be nothing new to the county council because they are sending out notices every day reminding people of rates, water charges and so on.

It is envisaged that the warden service will pay for itself. If that does not happen the Minister gave a kind of guarantee that he would meet the difference. I do not know what might be collected or what the salaries might be but whatever will be invested in this service will be well spent. There is great need for such a service, particularly in the large towns. Nothing can create as much disruption as having traffic slowed down for perhaps half an hour or three quarters of an hour. I welcome the Bill and wish it every success.

Professor Quinlan

Like the previous speakers I welcome the idea of traffic wardens, the idea of trying to ensure that our towns are kept open to traffic and that illegal parking is curbed. I am not at all happy that the financing of this service will normally be paid for by receipts from payments collected. That is a very wrong principle. It evolved from the operation of such warden services in the United States where several small towns are financed in part by the fines collected by wardens. Wardens are expected to hand out so many tickets. This is dangerous practice for a country which is relying so much on the tourist trade, which we hope to see expanded. To put the onus on traffic wardens to hand out tickets removes the element of discretion that the Garda have at present in operating such a system. The general practice is that if the person is from out of town or a foreigner or a tourist he is handled in a certain way. He is told what the position is and the guard has the discretion to give the ticket or not. There could be nothing more inimical to good relations in the tourist trade than this indiscriminate handing out of fines. Discretion cannot be exercised if too much reliance is placed on the self-financing aspect of the service.

The self-financing aspect means that a warden who wishes to skip off for part of the day has only to issue his quota of tickets in the morning or at some stage during the day or during the week. I would prefer to feel that this is a regular local authority service: it is keeping the roads open for traffic. Why should there be any difference between the cost involved in this and the cost of surfacing the streets, putting up street signs and so on? In the context of the road budget we operate at present anything like this service will be only infinitesimal in cost. I appeal to the Minister to think over this and I appeal to the local authorities concerned not to let themselves be forced into this position. The amount at issue for any local authority is very small. By all means, let the fines be paid, as suggested in the Bill, to the local authority, but let there not be any compulsion or any accounting to see whether the amount collected in fines matches up to the cost of the service.

What we want to see is whether we get any complaints about undue congestion or illegal parking or other offences occurring persistently in areas where traffic wardens are operating. I would not accept that the amount collected in fines should be used as the yardstick by which to judge this. In any area where traffic wardens operate the Garda are also there and they are in a position to make reports periodically as to what the traffic situation is in the locality and as to how the parking and other regulations are being observed. If these reports are satisfactory, the operation of the traffic wardens in that area is satisfactory. Do not let us walk into the trouble that exists in all the American small towns due to this balancing act.

With 40 wardens in Dublin, perhaps when fully operational in most of the larger areas the service might account for 160 wardens which, as a service, would probably run into £500,000 a year. This, in the context of the local authority budgets is not very much. The fines will bring in a certain amount of that; we need scarcely worry about the balance. We want an efficient service which achieves its objectives but which does not antagonise tourists and those who may not be aware of the local regulations.

I am not too happy about the idea of a permanent warden in the smaller towns. I subscribe fully to the belief that it would probably be difficult for such a person having spent five, ten or 15 years in the locality to issue parking tickets impartially. The salaries offered are not sufficient to guarantee full financial independence to the persons concerned.

I have been pointing out the difficulties of a permanent warden in a small town continuing to function effectively after a period of five, ten or 15 years. As this scheme will be based on local authorities, a centrally controlled or operated warden service would be the better answer for towns with a population of under 7,000 or 8,000 or even 10,000, so that some wardens could travel around any place where congestion, parking or other offences were reported, areas where parking conditions were reported as being bad. They could visit certain areas over a number of days, or spend an afternoon there, and carry out their functions in that way. This would have the desired effect and at the same time there would not be personal relations between the wardens and the people concerned.

The experiment in Cork city of disc parking has been a complete success. It is a better solution than any parking meters. For one thing, parking meters are costly but, more important still, they seem to invite vandals to put them out of action. Consequently the maintenance costs are very high. Disc parking is accepted pretty widely now and it is cheap and almost automatic. There is no looking for five pence coins to put in the meter. There is no reason why disc parking could not be accepted nationally and why a common disc could not be used in almost all areas except Dublin and Cork. I envisage that the periods allowed for parking would be more liberal in the smaller towns than in either Dublin or Cork. I recommend the disc system and I hope we will not install any more parking meters because they are a total waste of resources. With these few remarks I welcome the Bill. I hope the Minister when replying, will answer the criticism I have made about the dangers of making this self-financing.

Mr. Kerrigan

I welcome the Bill in so far as it is an extension of the traffic warden system and also the fact that has been clarified in the Dáil that it does not go beyond the non-display of a tax disc. I am pleased that this is the only extension of the warden's power. I agree with Senator Eoin Ryan that we must be more than careful when we are giving traffic wardens or any other group of people powers formerly held by the Garda. At the same time we must be realistic enough to realise that the Garda are an overworked force and that in certain instances some functions can be removed from them. This measure will be a help to them at a time when they are so overworked.

Traffic wardens are there for the management of traffic. They are not there to harrass the motoring public. I suppose everybody knows the traffic problems in Cork. As Senator Quinlan has said, we have introduced there a system of disc parking since last March. The success, or otherwise, of that system can be seen in two ways. It has been a success from the point of view of traffic control, which is the most important aspect. Up to now the system has worked reasonably well. We hope it will improve.

While the Minister is dealing with this Bill he should give further consideration to transferring certain regulations under section 90 of the Road Traffic Act to local authorities. Contrary to what Senator Quinlan said, I believe elected representatives are concerned about tourists and the people in parking areas. They are the best watchdogs. I do not think traffic wardens will deliberately set out to make life hard and gather finance. That is not the purpose of traffic management. We talk about overheads, rates, costs and suitable roads but if we had proper traffic management the need for such roads would not be so urgent and Cork city would not be destroyed with large motorways running through it.

In regard to regulations for no parking areas single and double yellow lines and so on, it is imperative, especially in cities, that local authorities take over these functions. In Cork, where we have the disc parking system, we have the problem that local people— we talk of bringing people back to the city centres—find it impossible to park their cars outside their homes. Having made the regulation we are faced with lifting the parking restrictions in certain areas in order to keep spaces for the residents. A very simple method was suggested by Cork Corporation but it is impossible to implement it because the Commissioner concerned will not accept it. The authority to make regulations should be given to local authorities.

Traffic wardens in Cork city are doing a very good job and there have been very few complaints either from tourists or residents regarding what Senator Quinlan feels is harrassment of the motorist—even though I can say I have a fairly good record myself for getting tickets. Where tourists are concerned, the wardens turn a blind eye unless it is a very serious breach of the traffic regulations.

I welcome this Bill. I do not think it will have the effect of traffic wardens popping up all over the country. I presume they will be appointed only where they are required, because local authorities cannot afford to throw money away. Therefore it will not become a money-making business. If it can pay for itself, well and good. If it cannot, I am sure the Minister will look into the position of those local authorities that cannot pay.

Mr. McGowan

I welcome any new measure which will help to regulate traffic. Most people in public life appreciate a measure which will improve the traffic flow and control the parking of cars. This Bill is designed to meet part of the problem. We must do something about the parking problem. I do not think that the Bill, as it is drafted, will work. The research for the Bill was probably done in the city. The Bill is much too short. It is designed for administration in the city. That is regrettable because there are small towns with bottleneck traffic routes. We look forward to any Bill which will help to control traffic in our towns.

Hopefully, after the next election, I can see the Parliamentary Secretary as an active member of the Kerry County Council engaged solely on making representations on behalf of people who received parking tickets in towns like Dingle. I can see how difficult it will be for this Bill to work.

Mr. Russell

Senator McGowan will be Parliamentary Secretary, no doubt.

Mr. McGowan

I am satisfied that this Bill will not be as easy to operate as the Minister thinks. The traffic wardens have not got the training. They have not got the courtesy, kindness or consideration. They do not live up to the local government slogans we read along our public highways. This is evident when people are in parking difficulties. Most of us come in contact with the present traffic control wardens in the city. Most of the wardens act like policemen who are not trained to do the job. This is unfortunate and I would have hoped we could broaden the whole base of the Bill and extend it to cover driving in lanes. However difficult the problem of parking is, a greater problem is recognition of the lane system in driving in cities and towns. If any of us went to the North we would see that they are very strict on lane control. We have not got lane control here. We pass on every side through traffic like a scared terrier dog. That is the type of driving I see and deplore and it is the type of traffic abuse to which more attention should be given rather than the parking offence.

As a member of a local authority I can see great difficulty with all the goodwill in the world and with all members of the local authority being anxious to co-operate and anxious for an improved system that will relieve the problem in towns and cities where it is necessary to do so, because I have experience in regard to the exercise of power by the authority. They could, for instance, oblige the farmer to cut hedges at dangerous bends, or the authority could cut the hedges themselves and then levy the charge against the local farmer. In my county where we have a problem with many twisting roads and difficult bends, some of them obscured and dangerous to traffic, we have to cut those hedges ourselves and we find it impossible to collect the fines or we have to spend more money in collecting them than they are worth.

We would have the same situation in rural areas. If a man is parked and he gets a ticket and refuses to pay the fine, the whole system will get clogged up with parking offences and the traffic wardens will spend half their time in the courts. It is a system that will not work in rural Ireland. The local authorities will then be faced with a Bill that is difficult to implement. Members of local authorities will be in a difficult situation because they will be making representations on behalf of people whose excuse will be that they were only in for a prescription at the chemist, that they were stopped for only ten minutes to collect their granny, that they were at the dispensary, or some such story. These would be all fairly good reasons for having parked there and the local representative, who will be part of the local authority administering the system, will be caught in the crossfire between those charged with parking offences and the body trying to implement the parking system.

I had hoped we would have a much wider traffic Bill and also that the scope of the Bill would have justified a type of traffic warden more highly trained in traffic control and traffic parking. It is desirable that we should have that. I hope the introduction of this short Bill will not inhibit the necessary consideration of that. Other Senators mentioned driving courtesy and manners on the road. I drive and I see that the driving of heavy vehicles leaves quite a lot to be desired. On my way to the Seanad I saw three trucks being driven within one hundred yards of each other. Those are long trucks drawing a 40-foot trailer and I would have to wait for a long distance to get a clear view to pass all three vehicles at the same time. This is a very serious problem and one I would like to see getting priority over the type of measure this Bill hopes to bring about.

I support the introduction of this Bill, and I will support the local authority in implementing it as far as possible. But I would be less than honest if I did not express the fear that it is going to be impractical to administer it in rural Ireland. I also hope that properly trained traffic wardens will take an interest in traffic signs. We have a deplorable situation in the city and all over the country where traffic signs erected by local authorities are left to rust or be painted when the local authority notice them or when they are brought to the local authority's attention. This does not happen frequently enough in a country with such a large number of road miles as ours. Good signposting in the city and country helps to avoid traffic accidents and helps a freer traffic flow. Unfortunately we have a certain amount of vandalism which interferes with signs—changing them and turning them around—and this is a matter which should also be included in any new traffic bill. Its exclusion causes concern and causes me to wonder what amount of consideration the Department of Local Government are giving to the various abuses and problems under traffic control.

We are only looking at a very small section of the overall problem. I certainly hope the Bill is successful in bringing about some relief but I am not over-optimistic about the end results. In the city it may be helpful, but I doubt its usefulness in rural areas. There will be a conflict of interests. I am prepared to give it a chance and to work with the Bill, but I can see local authorities being slow to implement it. I can see local authorities who do implement it cancelling the appointment of traffic wardens. If we appoint a traffic warden in a small town where do we recruit him from? He will be recruited in the same way as we would recruit a local rate collector. It is only natural that he would become part of the local scene. Sometimes the biggest parking offenders would be the local traders or the local businessman in a small town. The custom is that a local businessman, if he lives outside the town or at his business premises, will come and park his car or his vehicle quite near to his own premises, claiming the right to park there. I wonder will the traffic warden recognise that there is such a right or will he treat him as a traffic offender.

Will the traffic warden not be inclined to become part of the local community and be more favourably disposed to those with whom he is familiar and friendly and who are living close by than the stranger who comes in and parks his car to go to the public convenience or to go to some business which will keep him a short while parked in that area? If a traffic warden is faced with the problem of having to raise revenue that will ultimately finance and pay for his existence, he will be more inclined to put a ticket on the strange car that will come into a town or city than he will on that of the local man he has to live beside. This is only natural. I can see the weaknesses and the danger in this Bill and how it will work out. I will certainly support the Bill. I will be one of those who will press for its introduction in my own local authority but I can see the difficulties. I only hope it will work. I doubt it.

Mr. Russell

I should like to give a general welcome to the Bill although, like some of the other Senators who have spoken, I have some reservations about it. I am not quite as pessimistic as Senator McGowan about the operation of the Bill. I think it is proper that the local authority should be the people to organise, in conjunction with the Garda Commissioner, the establishment of what is a local force for traffic warden service. The emphasis should be on the warden service. If this traffic warden service is to succeed and be effective, the men who are recruited to carry out the duties should be taught first of all to realise that their job is not just picking up errant motorists who are parking for a short space of time. Their primary objective is to assist traffic flow and generally to overcome the congestion which is becoming a chronic problem in some of our cities. In my own native city of Limerick the traffic problem has reached such gigantic proportions that there is a distinct fear now that customers and tourists may be debarred or discouraged from coming into Limerick.

It should be quite clear that the powers given to traffic wardens under this Bill are strictly limited. There were suggestions in the other House that the new traffic warden service might turn out to be a mini-Garda Síochána. If I read the Bill correctly, there is no suggestion of this kind at all. These men will be purely confined to certain stated parking offences and the non-display of tax discs on cars. What will be important—and here I am in agreement with some of the views expressed by Senators opposite—is the type of traffic warden who will be engaged for this service. There should be certain minimum requirements in regard to age, standard of education and period of training. This will be an important service, not a haphazard one, a sort of relief scheme. It will be a very necessary adjunct to the general traffic code.

The men who will be recruited should see in it a useful career. For that reason, certain minimum standards should be laid down and also the men concerned should be given reasonable salary or wages and also other favourable terms of service. Unless this new service is made attractive you will not recruit the right type of men. This could founder from the word "go" if you do not get the proper type of men coming forward and offering themselves as candidates for recruitment by local authorities. The Bill does not refer to it, but I think it should be endemic in the Bill. The success of this whole traffic warden service is based on the individuals who will be recruited.

Indiscriminate parking at the present time, not only in the bigger cities of Dublin, Cork and Limerick but even more particularly in country towns, is playing havoc with the general flow of traffic. It is not unusual to see in the intermediate towns, on the main highways between Limerick and Dublin or Cork and Dublin, cars parked on both sides of the roads and articulated trucks trying to wind their way through these towns. There is absolute chaos. It is now getting to the stage in some cases where the Minister will have to give serious consideration to building main roads skirting some of the country towns. It might be a better solution than coming down too heavily on people who might be parking for only a short time. There are so many other facets of this question of parking that have to be taken into consideration that it would be foolish to think that by establishing local traffic warden services we are going to solve our parking problem. I have the feeling that it should be optional on local authorities. Local authorities should be required to introduce a traffic warden service depending obviously on their parking problems. They have the option of either establishing or not establishing it as they think fit. There should be a requirement in the Bill to induce local authorities to bring in the service.

Traffic wardens should be encouraged to help motorists, particularly tourists, to find local authority parking places in the cities and towns. Furthermore local authorities should be encouraged, not directed, to provide adequate off-street parking places including multi-storey car parks with, if necessary, assistance from the Minister for Local Government. The problem in some of our towns is so acute that there is nowhere to park except on the streets. It would then be most unfair to prosecute or fine a motorist because he literally could find nowhere to park. If you are going to bring in regulations to penalise the motorist for parking in a non-parking area or some other offence of this nature, equally the local authority should be obliged to provide adequate off-street parking so that the motorist will have no excuse for not going to a proper parking place.

Among the difficulties I see that have nothing to do with the traffic wardens but are directly concerned with interfering with the flow of traffic, is the unloading of trucks and vans, which is done in some cities and towns at all hours of the day. From 8 o'clock in the morning right through the day you have vans pulling up outside shops or stores, where already cars are legitimately parked perhaps for an hour or two hours as the case may be, and unloading. I have seen instances where vans are unloading on both sides of a street making it almost impossible to pass up what would normally be quite a wide and easily traversible street. There should be some limitation on the hours during which vans and trucks can either unload goods into a shop or store or load up from that shop or store. This is all part and parcel of the parking problem. To my mind the most serious part of the problem is traffic flow. I would like to see these traffic wardens having some say in keeping traffic moving. As it is, they are purely concerned with vehicles about to be parked or that have been parked indiscriminately or illegally. They should have some power where there is a hold-up in traffic at least to get the traffic going again without in any way impinging on the authority or powers of the Garda force. There might be no garda in the area at the time and there could be a serious traffic jam. It would be advisable if the traffic wardens were given at least limited powers to unwind that traffic jam.

Most of our parking troubles today are of comparatively recent origin. They arise from two things. First of all, the enormous increase in the private and commercial vehicles over the past ten or 15 years and, compounded with that, the nature of our towns. Most of our cities and towns are built about 200 years or more. Obviously at that time nobody could foresee the enormous increase. In fact, nobody could foresee even the invention of the internal combustion engine. These factors compound our problem in a very special way and require, as has been pointed out by other speakers, tact and understanding on behalf of the traffic wardens. Otherwise they could become little Hitlerites and the whole system could break down because the local people would resent them so strongly that they would get no co-operation. They have a distinct advantage by being a local force. They should be on the best of terms with their neighbours and assist them wherever possible, if they think there is a likelihood that they are breaking the law. Parking is a problem in all our towns for the reasons I have just enumerated.

I would like to see some differential in the fine. Incidentally, I do not know who decides on the amount of the fine. Is it the local authority or is it the man on the spot? The prescribed fine is described in the Bill. Who prescribes the fine? Is it the same fine for all offences? For instance, I would be ruthless with motorists who parked at a bus stop, which I regard as one of the greatest causes of congestion in our country towns. At the same time a person who parked in a place where it might not be generally congested is committing a lesser offence. Is there any provision in the Bill to differentiate between different types of parking offences or are all parking offences equally culpable and therefore subject to an equal fine?

In Limerick and other areas we have local traffic committees. There are four in Limerick for the four wards in the city. The local authorities are represented, namely, Limerick City Council by the councillors in the area, members of the Limerick Corporation staff and members of the Garda Síochána. It would be very helpful if the traffic warden service was also represented on these local committees which meet frequently, go into local problems and make a decision and recommendation on changes in the traffic law, bus stops, pedestrian crossings and so on.

Briefly, I should like to comment on the actual wording of the Bill. Section 1 refers to the local authorities as being a council of a county, the corporation of a county or other borough, the council of an urban district or the commissioners of a town. In recruiting traffic wardens, which authority would take precedence in the case of a city like Limerick, where you have a corporation? There is only one authority there. Where there is a county council you can have an urban district council and you can have town commissioners. Who would recruit the traffic wardens? Is it the UDC or the town commissioners or the county council?

Section 3 reads: "Where a traffic warden has reasonable grounds,..." What are reasonable grounds? I can see the lawyers having an interesting time on that at high cost. How is a person to have reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing or has committed an offence to which this section applies? I hope the Minister will elucidate that. "He may deliver to the person a notice in the prescribed form." I am not quite clear how he can deliver to a person who has already committed an offence and perhaps gone away. If he is committing it or is about to commit it, I can see him doing it. It goes on to say: "...the payment specified in the notice, accompanied by the notice". Who specifies the payment?

Again it says: "No payment so received shall in any circumstances be recoverable by the person who made it." Could there be no circumstances in which a person could be wrongly fined and recover his fine? There should be some way out.

Finally, I should like to comment on the financing of the service. Section 3, subsection (8), states: "Moneys accruing to a local authority under this section shall be disposed of in accordance with regulations made by the Minister." I understood the one purpose of these fines, apart from being a deterrent, was to finance the operation of the traffic warden service. What regulations could the Minister possibly make that would require them to be used for some other purpose?

Section 8 says: "The Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, make grants towards the expenses under this Act of a local authority." A good point was made that if this service is to be self-financing —in other words financed only by fines—that could be an encouragement to traffic wardens, or indeed to local authorities, to collect all the fines they possibly could, ruthlessly and without any reasonable consideration for the offence being committed or about to be committed. I should like to suggest that recoupment should be made to a local authority on the same lines as moneys expended out of the Road Fund grant. In a way this service is part and parcel of road construction. I would like to see the Road Fund used for a 50 per cent recoupment of the local authority expenditure in this regard. That would do away with any temptation to inflate the fines to make sure that this service was self-financing.

I welcome the Bill generally. There is a great need for it here. I would like to emphasise one point and that is that it would have to be operated in a fair and just way by the individuals concerned, otherwise it would run into a lot of trouble.

Mr. Keegan

I regard this Bill as an extension of regulations which are already in operation in different parts of the country. I would like to see the maximum amount of flexibility exercised in the operation of this Bill. It would be, to a certain extent, a new service in many areas. In effect it, would mean that many local authorities in areas that have not hitherto had traffic wardens would appoint them. It is important that the right type of warden be appointed, that he be given a detailed explanation of his duties and functions as traffic warden. Unfortunately, we have not, as yet, been successful in securing the confidence of all the people in the enforcement of our road traffic laws. The reason we have not got the confidence of the people is the methods that have been utilised year by year by the Garda in dealing with road traffic offenders.

The system is wrong. We find the Garda at present setting up road blocks, checking cars for tax discs, and so on. This is the type of work the traffic wardens can do effectively, thus releasing the Garda to go after criminals, who we have in abundance. It is unfortunate that the Garda have always taken the line of least resistance. The easiest man to catch is the motorist. He is easy prey for every garda, for every squad car and every road block. I welcome the change of taking them off the road and putting them to more useful work. The type of candidate who would be successful and his training are important.

Business suspended at 12.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.

Mr. Keegan

Before the lunch break I was dealing with the new duties which would be imposed on traffic wardens in connection with the inspection of tax discs. This is something I welcome. It would free the Garda of this responsibility and would enable the Department of Justice to have them more usefully employed in other activities.

This is an area in which the confidence of the public should be sought. When a motorist is accosted for not having a tax disc on his vehicle he should be requested to tax his vehicle immediately and present the vehicle to a traffic warden or to a Garda barracks within a period of, say, ten days. No such legislation exists here but it is in force in other countries. Our system is that the motorist is fined but there is still no obligation on him to tax the vehicle. If this new system were introduced whereby the offending motorist had to tax his vehicle within ten days, it would ensure that more vehicles would be taxed and the courts would not be cluttered up with motorists appearing to answer petty charges regarding absence of number plates, non-display of tax discs and so on. More revenue would be available for the Road Fund and the traffic warden could play a useful role in ensuring the collection of tax. Many people escape the law while driving untaxed vehicles. Even if they are detected and fined there is no obligation on them to tax their vehicles retrospectively.

Wardens must ensure a free flow of traffic through all built-up areas. Problems and difficulties arise in these areas because many old towns were not constructed to facilitate the passage of modern traffic. They have very narrow streets so that traffic piles up. Wardens are essential to ensure that traffic can flow freely from area to area.

Traffic regulations should cover more than just the collection of revenue. I would not like to see wardens employed solely for the purpose of collecting tax revenue by placing stickers on windscreens. If wardens are employed for this purpose only, they will not gain the confidence of the motoring public. Traffic wardens could work more successfully if they adopted the role of "courtesy cops".

One would hope it would not be the intention of the wardens to consider their function as being to get as many bookings as possible in a day. I recall on one occasion being stopped by a garda on one of our highways at 2.30 a.m. I had just received word that a brother-in-law of mine had died, so I was in a hurry. Although I told the garda where I was going and who I was, he said: "I do not care who you are or what you are, all I want is to get names in this book". I said to him: "If that is your purpose as a member of the Garda you are not worthy of being a member of the force" and I drove away.

The belief seems to be widespread within the Garda and among traffic wardens that they must summon people. While that system prevails we will not have a system which will be acceptable because it will not enjoy the confidence of the motoring public who are people who should be treated with consideration because of the amount they contribute to internal revenue. From the time a car arrives at our ports it is a source of revenue for the Minister for Finance.

Another factor that must be considered with regard to this is the adequate provision of car parks in all towns which have a sizable population. There is no good in enforcing this type of legislation on the motoring public unless the local authorities provide adequate car parks and ensure that those parks are fully available. The tendency today is to park the vehicle nearest to the shopping centre or wherever the motorist may be going. The Minister would be well advised to ensure an adequate flow of finance for the construction of car parks. If that were done it would be making a major contribution towards the elimination of traffic jams in all built-up areas. I realise that local authorities must go into the open market. If they wish to acquire land for this purpose and as car parks must be convenient to towns, the land would be very dear.

There is a great deal involved in this Bill but I accept it and will support it, with certain reservations. I trust it will result in the apprehension of tax dodgers although in the case of a person who, possibly through no fault of his own, neglects to tax his car, there is need for flexibility.

Another important consideration is that we still have thousands of motorists who are ignorant of the traffic and parking laws. Again, the responsibility lies with the Minister and the local authorities to ensure that the motoring public are fully aware of traffic laws and of the significance of road markings. The only way to ensure full co-operation is by having people fully educated and made aware of the need for the legislation and the need for having prohibited areas and parking, non-parking zones and so on.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

First, I should like to thank the Senators for the way in which they have received this Bill. There were some criticisms but in the main the Bill seemed to be welcomed. While one or two Senators—and I suppose they cannot be blamed for this—went outside it to deal with their own pet theories on road traffic, it was a very useful debate.

I should like to congratulate Senator Seán Brennan on his 50 years of safe motoring. It is a pity there are not a few more like him around. Senator E. Ryan asked about section 3 (4) (b) where no payment would be refunded. This is precisely the same as the procedure under section 103 in the existing legislation. The reason for it is that there has to be finality. If a person paid a fine and subsequently could go to court in an effort to get it back, there might be a lot of complications. This was introduced to avoid complications so it is safer to leave it as it is.

There seems to be a doubt in some Senators' minds about the question of the power of the Garda. This Bill does not interfere with the power of the Garda to deal with the traffic offences mentioned in the Bill. They will still have that power and, naturally, when the traffic wardens will not be on duty or where they are not on duty, the Garda will carry out these duties in the normal way. It might be as well to remember that when we are talking about traffic wardens we tend to talk about what is happening here in Dublin, Cork and places like that. I would envisage traffic wardens who would, particularly in busy roads leading to seaside resorts and places like that, be working on perhaps Saturdays and Sundays which would not be normal hours for traffic wardens to work. I believe that the local authorities can, in fact, make this arrangement.

Reference was made by Senator Sanfey to meter feeding. Meter feeding is illegal under the existing parking meter regulations laid down by the corporation. It is not a ticket offence but the local authorities can prosecute where such an offence comes to their notice. It is not possible to deal with it under this Bill.

An extraordinary fact is that in the Dáil the main argument seemed to be that I might be trying to give too much power to the wardens, asking them to do things which were, in fact, the right of the Garda. Here, the main argument seemed to be that I was not giving enough power to the wardens. The facts are that the powers are very limited in the Bill and they are not being altered. Possibly, we could have given a lot more power but there was a lobby in the Garda which seemed to think that we were taking a lot of their power and giving it to people whom they called "untrained personnel". We had made up our minds beforehand what type of Bill we wanted. That is what was introduced and it deals specifically with parking and the display of tax discs.

Some Senators referred to the question of the other offence of not paying the tax. The warden will deal only with the display of the tax disc but he will be able to inform the local authority that the car is not taxed and it can follow from that that there may be a prosecution. However, it will be the Garda who will be making the prosecution, not the local authority, as has been suggested.

Another point which seemed to cause some confusion was whether the wardens were being appointed for the purpose of doing certain things; that the local authority must appoint them and that therefore the responsibility for paying them should rest with the Central Fund and so on; that they should not be asked to go out and collect a certain amount in order to pay their own wages. This is a complete misunderstanding of the whole matter. In fact, traffic wardens will only be appointed where the local authority, in consultation with the Garda, consider it necessary. The reason it specifically states in the Bill that the payment may be made in certain cases where there is a loss on the warden service is to ensure that if the local authority, in consultation with the Garda, decide that a warden service is necessary and that there is a loss as a result, then it is only fair that the question of repaying some of that amount by the State should be considered.

In the event of the local authority for prestige purposes or otherwise deciding that they want a warden service and although the Garda say "No", it would be unfair to ask the State to pay for the wardens who were appointed by the local authority. We have adopted a happy medium by putting in the right of the Department to pay in certain cases.

There is the other question of whether a manager or somebody representing the manager should go out and tell the wardens to collect as much as they could. Let me make two points very clear. First, nobody need fear prosecution unless he breaks the law. I am quite sure that the country Senators will agree that when we go into some of the old towns with very narrow streets, it is criminal that somebody who is unthinking or—worse than that—does not give a damn will park a vehicle and hold up a long line of vehicles, not because it was important that they should park there but because they could not care less. For that reason the introduction of wardens in those towns will make a tremendous improvement in the flow of traffic.

There is the other point which we must not forget, that is, the question of the training of wardens. I agreed with the view expressed in the Dáil and I repeat it here that wardens being appointed at present by Dublin Corporation receive training. I propose that all wardens receive adequate training but their selection is very important, too. They should be selected as people who will not—as some Senator said—go round with a grouch. I should like to see wardens, both men and women, being people who would be able to deal with the public in a courteous manner. That does not take from the fact that they have a job to do. Many of us who have to perform duties which are not very popular know that people dislike what we are doing. It has been proven in Dublin, Cork and the other areas where wardens are operating that they have been doing an excellent job with the necessary courtesy. I am sure this type of action will continue.

Senator Sanfey referred to the question of a different set of fines for different areas. It is possible to arrange that. It might be necessary to have a higher fine for parking on a clearway or for parking in some very dangerous place than a fine for a person who leaves his car in a prohibited area but does not cause any obstruction. This is a matter that can be considered when the regulations are being made. Whatever rules are applied they must be uniform.

The other problem which arises is the question of the age limit. This is not mentioned in the Bill. I do not want to see pensioners being selected as traffic wardens, but neither do I want the principle accepted that when somebody is 45 or 50 years of age he is not able to do any other work. For that reason I would propose that a pretty wide age scale be made available. Somebody at 45 or 50 years of age or more could do an excellent job for many years.

Senator E. Ryan wanted to know the difference between subsections (2) and (3) of section 3. A warden can deliver the ticket or he can affix the ticket. That is the only difference.

Senator Kerrigan referred to the question of the transfer of powers to local authorities to enable them to make regulations. There is no objection to this proposal. About five years ago it was agreed that this should be done. If Cork Corporation or any other corporation make the required application it can be dealt with in that way.

I should like to make it very clear that, so far as the question of the traffic wardens is concerned, this is an extension to an existing service. It is optional. The local authorities do not have to appoint wardens. If they want to appoint them they must consult the Garda and they can then appoint them. It is optional for somebody who has had a ticket put on his car to pay the fine or to go to court. This is one way in which it can be established if the person is being treated unfairly.

I hope that the traffic wardens will be a courteous group of people who will not perhaps produce so many fines but will ensure (a) that the traffic flows more freely and (b) that, as Senator Kerrigan says, the numbers of untaxed cars, lorries and other vehicles can be dealt with in the proper manner.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.