In the course of the debate on Second Stage I indicated that I was somewhat concerned about the nature of the guaranteeing powers of the Minister and that I would consider putting down recommendations for the amendment of the Ministerial power of guaranteeing by way of strengthening that power. But by virtue of that fact I had to conclude that any such recommendation would be ruled out of order, either in the case of an extension of the time as coming from an ordinary Member of this House, or as being beyond the scope of the Bill, which in this section proposes merely to amend in one particular only the relevant section of the Principal Act. However, that conclusion that it would be otiose for me to put down recommendations which would cast a burden on the officers of the House in circulating what would then be found to be disorderly, does not make it undesirable for me to make a few further brief comments developing what I said on Second Stage in relation to this section.
There are two points in general. The first is this question of the duration of the power of the ministerial guarantee. So far as I know it is only in relation to the dairy produce code that there is a time limit placed on the ministerial power of guarantee. That may derive from the fact that in a sense An Bord Bainne was a sort of a contrivance forced upon us by virtue of EEC requirements. It is in essential nature a voluntary body. A view may have been taken in some Department with regard to this that there ought to be a time limit in the case of a ministerial guarantee of such a body.
From the point of view of a democracy it is desirable that the reasons for a decision be given. We have here a situation where An Bord Bainne in fact is the agent, to use a less general term, the parent to use another general term, of an industry of very considerable significance to the country. A figure of the contribution to the exports of this country which can be confidently enough given represented by dairy produce is 15 per cent of the total exports. There is reason to infer—not necessarily from what the Minister has said either in this House or the other House, but it is possible to make such an inference from what his predecessor said in the other House — that the views of the Departments of Agriculture and Finance on this matter may not be in unison. The more I think about the manner in which our affairs are conducted I am forced to the conclusion that one of the most pernicious doctrines that lies at the heart of our political affairs is the one of collective responsibility, a splendid device whereby the real argument is concealed from the democracy which is to be guided by the decision.
I should like to know why, when we have An Bord Bainne in the conduct of foreign marketing, in particular in relation to the exporting of the dairy produce surplus of this country, with a five year plan to cope with the potential increase of 200 million tons of milk, it is decided that the guarantee should be for two years only. That means that the guaranteeing power can be of use only in relation to 1978 and 1979. It cannot be of any use for 1980 and 1981. The Minister will have to come back to the Dáil and then to this House to get his strength and power to cope with the latter two years of the five-year plan of this agency which is so significant and important for this industry.
I should like to know a reason for that. The Minister will have to come back for certain. Why should he put himself in that position? If it is correct to say that the guaranteeing power of the Minister is central to the affair of the financing of An Bord Bainne's plan why should he put himself in the position that he cannot now exercise the power which will give confidence to An Bord Bainne, and its members, confidence to the financiers of An Bord Bainne, confidence which will enhance the ability of the board and its status with foreign purchasers and foreign dealers rather than postpone that particular item? It is within the Minister's power, as I understand the Rules of this House, to propose that that date be changed from 1979 to 1981, though it is not within my power.
With regard to the status of the guarantee, Senator Whitaker, who made a short but notable contribution to the Second Reading of this Bill, spoke of the guarantee playing the part of equity finance with regard to the financing of An Bord Bainne. With regard to that equity finance, properly understood it must inevitably mean that the equity is generally available for all the purposes of the body for which it is subscribed and that it lies at the rear of all creditors. In this case a guarantee of An Bord Bainne is not available for all the purposes. A guarantee in this case can be for a loan only; it cannot be for borrowings of another character; it cannot be for general indebtedness; it can be for a loan only for a particular purpose, for the acquisition of dairy produce.
It is common case and it is known that the five-year plan of An Bord Bainne involves increased financing of expenditure for marketing, for the taking of positions in foreign areas where the exports may go to, and that the plan involves the diversification of product to gear in with the estimates An Bord Bainne make as to what range of products will fit the particular market. It is in fact the position of a guarantor that he does not lie in the rear of other creditors. A guarantor at the end of the day can prove in the liquidation with the other creditors, and he is not an equity holder in that sense or in any sense. In the sense that this is a voluntary body, a ministerial guarantee has that general sense of strengthening the body in its international appearance, giving it stature it would not otherwise have.
It is immensely important that the guarantee be such that the financiers who are going to rely on it will know precisely how far it can be relied on. In this case we know that the mere acquisition of dairy products is only one of the functions for which the finance is required. There is nothing the Minister can do. He can give no assurance whatever beyond the powers that are given to him in the statute which at the end of the day will stand up against a claim being made on that guarantee if the moneys guaranteed have not been used in the manner and for the purpose for which alone they can be used under the section.
I recognise the Minister cannot be expected at this Stage — it would not even be orderly for him to propose amendments of the Principal Acts — to get rid of these impediments in the deficiencies as I see them. I may be wrong and, if I am, I will be glad to be corrected. I would invite him very seriously to consider whether there is any merit in what I have said and, if there is, when he does bring in more comprehensive legislation with regard to an Bord Bainne will he take note of this?
I would suggest a thought of a general character and end with that. We have just had a debate on export promotion from which I learned a good deal, but I thought it was nonsense to assume in the course of that debate that the expenditure we were approving for Corás Tráchtála had any particular relationship with the generation of exports generally. I submit that the generation of exports generally relates to two other matters. It relates to the existence of a tax relief and to the success of the Industrial Development Authority in procuring industries interested in taking advantage of our whole marketing position. The Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy has told us that the home market was now expanded to around 160 million people.
In the case of An Bord Bainne we have a most interesting potential. We have a structure which might be seen to be analogous to the type of structure that exists, for example, in Japan. We have already at the top of the industry a leader capable of taking a planned view of the entire industry, where it can possibly serve as a model for a similar type of institution in relation to other industries. There is a whole range of specialised industries in which this would not be true, but another reason for strengthening the powers of An Bord Bainne is to see how far it can prove itself to be a leader in other fields of Irish enterprise and industry.
