Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 May 1978

Vol. 88 No. 11

Road Transport Bill, 1978: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is to make provision for a further stage in the liberalisation of road freight transport.

Before dealing with the Bill itself I would like to dwell briefly on the events which led up to the proposals which it contains.

The merchandise licensing control restrictions which have seriously inhibited the development of the private sector of the haulage industry were introduced by the Road Transport Act, 1933 and have not been changed fundamentally since then. Because the control system was so seriously restrictive and because it remained almost unchanged for virtually 40 years it had not been possible, as yet, to dismantle it to any significant degree for fear of causing an upheaval in the haulage industry which could easily negative any well meaning but unduly hasty effort to make the necessary changes. The process of liberalisation which the 1971 Act initiated entailed the removal of area and commodity restrictions and certain restrictions on vehicle weight from the main stock of general haulage licences, but a final control on the specific number of vehicles operable by each licensee was retained.

More than 500 general hauliers are confined to one vehicle; about 150 are allowed two and 70 or so have numbers ranging up to 22. These authorisations reflect in most cases the sizes of the original undertakings involved in 1933. A number have, however, grown through the acquisition of other businesses, which has been the only means of growth open to them.

For some years before the 1971 Act there was a change of approach in the adoption of a less restrictive view of the then existing legislation than had been applied in earlier times. The change of approach got its impetus from the finding, following a special survey in 1964, that the overwhelming bulk of road freight transport was performed by the owners of goods using their own transport. This is usually called own account transport. Only 20 per cent in tonnage terms was carried by licensed hauliers; of this, CIE accounted for some 8 percentage points and private licensed hauliers for the remaining 12. That finding, taken with the fact that the railway share of freight transport was virtually frozen to a few traffics especially suited to rail, demonstrated that the restrictive legislation maintained for over 30 years with the objective of securing freight traffic for the railways, or the railway owned road services, had totally failed in its purpose.

These circumstances in which the road freight transport industry is virtually an "own account" industry and licensed hauliers carry only about 20 per cent of road freight tonnage compares very favourably with the situation in other countries where data of the same type is available. For example, in Germany, France and Belgium the corresponding figure is about 40 per cent, in the UK and Italy it is roughly 50 per cent and in The Netherlands a little over 60 per cent. Luxembourg is the only other EEC State where we know the figure to be as low as 20 per cent. Since the 1964 survey the situation in Ireland has changed to the detriment of licensed hauliers, and it has been estimated in recent years that the tonnage of road freight carried by licensees may now be as low as 10 per cent—half the figure disclosed in the mid-sixties—which was then thought to be a startling one.

This can hardly be regarded as a healthy situation for the road haulage industry and it is one which must, in very large measure, be attributed to the restrictive legislation which has prevented that industry from providing an attractive alternative to the own account operator who so often must feel that in using his own vehicle he has no option but to accept the penalty of one-way only laden journeys and other significant under-utilisation of vehicles, not to mention the consequential unnecessary diversion of effort and resources which this entails. Apart altogether from the loss in potential business which unnecessary own account operation represents to the haulage industry such operation calls for the use of excessive numbers of vehicles since, in so many cases, it is necessary to have two to do the work of one. It also involves an unproductive diversion of scarce capital which is badly needed and should be left available for investment in manufacturing plant or job creation.

The immediate policy aim is, of course, to free the licensed haulier as far as possible from any unnecessary legislative restraint and to allow licensees sufficient scope to tailor service to demand with more efficient transport at economical rates. In this way the licensed haulage industry will have the same opportunity as the other private sectors in the economy to manage its own affairs in the manner which it considers best suited to the circumstances. I will be disappointed if hauliers do not take this opportunity and I will watch developments in that regard very closely.

The proposals in this Bill do not stand alone in attempting to promote conditions conducive to the emergence of a first-class haulage industry. The EEC Access Directive, which came into force on 1 January 1978 will ensure that newcomers to the haulage industry will be of good repute, have sufficient financial resources for the business and be professionally competent, and that those who entered the industry in recent years will also have to prove their professional competence. Two provisions in the Bill are directly related to this directive. In addition the vehicles used in the haulage industry will be made subject to quality requirements to be drawn up under EEC auspices. It can be seen, therefor, that there will be a new emphasis on quality both as regards the capability of the haulier and the standard of the vehicle he uses.

These in outline were the considerations which governed my approach to the framing of the proposals in the Bill. If the proposals are considered by some to go too far and by others not far enough this is inevitable when so many and to an extent conflicting interests are involved. Like all such proposals, if enacted, they depend for success on an adequate response from those whom they are intended to directly benefit. The measure of this success will depend on the degree of response. The hauliers, who hold the key to such success will, no doubt, be anxious to respond, both because of the opportunity which the Bill presents to the haulage industry and also because of the responsibility which the industry has to the rest of the community. The manner in which future policy is developed and the nature and pace of further amendments to road transport legislation will naturally be affected by the way in which the industry develops under the more favourable regime which the Bill will create.

In view of the foregoing considerations and of the emphasis which has been laid on the part of the haulage industry is expected to play, you will readily appreciate that the principal proposal in the Bill is one which is intended to give the necessary freedom to the haulage industry to play its full part.

Section 3 of the Bill proposes that the number of vehicles presently authorised for operation under each general haulage licence be multiplied by six but that any one licensee may not operate more than 80 vehicles. At the moment each licence specifies a certain number of vehicls which may be operated under the licence. In most cases that will be one vehicle so that the new permitted number will be six in those cases. What this means in practice is that the haulier will be able to take his own decisions and actions in relation to the development of his business within that limit. The ceiling of 80 will be a safeguard against unrealistic investment or attempts to dominate the market, while the minimum of six will ensure that no one is compelled by a legal restraint to operate a business which by being confined to one or two vehicles is, on the basis of his own assessment, incapable of giving him a fair reward for his enterprise, labour and investment. In general, I will be providing the industry with a new open framework within which I will be able to monitor its development and allow it to review its objectives.

As these developments get under way I will, also, be able to observe the effects of other provisions of the Bill which initiate new and more flexible techniques in the regulation of the road freight haulage industry. The most important of these arises with the creation, as is proposed in section 6, of new licensing areas to supersede the existing exempted areas, which are being abolished and to grant licencs, as of right, in those areas on the sole basis of the qualitative criteria in the EEC access directive which I have already mentioned. People who were operating in those areas prior to 1 January 1978, will be entitled to their qualifications, in full or in part, under the EEC directive but new entrants will have to fulfil all the necessary requirements. The radii of the new areas, based on the discontinued exempted areas at Dublin and Cork will be 20 miles as against 15 miles at present while the new areas based on those being eliminated at Waterford, Limerick and Galway will have 15 mile radii as against ten mile radii as of now.

Review of the exempted area is, of course, long overdue. The initial justification for them, which was to allow free transfers of goods between ships and the railway ceased to exist many years ago. If they are to be regarded as devices which ensure adequate road freight transport services in the major urban areas they no longer reflect the expansion which has taken place over the years in those centres. For example, there has been pressure to allow hauliers in the exempted areas access to the building sites and industrial estates which are just outside or a few miles outside the exempted areas. Although a reasonable case has been established in favour of the grant of such an extension, it is not an acceptable proposition simply to extend the exempted areas to facilitate such hauliers and the appropriate alternative is to license them to operate in somewhat larger areas than the existing exempted areas. It is worth stressing, I think, that the proposal in the Bill will make use of the exempted area concept under which there has been no restriction on entry to the haulage business as a basis for a type of pilot scheme in qualitative licensing. This, I think, is an important step.

I will be able to experiment in another way in relation to our position in the international haulage market. The liberal policy exercised in relation to the grant of merchandise licences for international refrigerated haulage and the outstanding performance of Irish haulers in that field encourages me in the belief that past restrictions have kept out of haulage people of real energy and enterprise who, if given the necessary freedom, could contribute enormously to the development of an Irish international haulage fleet.

In section 4 of the Bill I propose to take powers to grant licences for international haulage to Irish hauliers without having to refer to the restrictive licensing provisions in the 1944 Act which at present inhibit and would, indeed, permanently inhibit the development of any flexible licensing system. These licences would be the reciprocal of the import/export transport licences at present granted to foreign hauliers under the 1971 Act. I may exercise the power to grant these licences on a rather experimental basis while the full potential of its use is being assessed. I attach particular importance to this provision because we need to strengthen our position in international haulage and lessen our dependence on outsiders in the event of any significant changes occurring in the international haulage market. It will not, of course, be possible to grant these licences to applicants who do not comply with the EEC access directive.

I am very impressed by the rate of progress being made by the international sector of the road haulage industry and I want to encourage the industry to develop further in that field. In this connection I attach great importance to the negotiation of bilateral road transport agreements with other countries. The bulk of international road haulage is carried out under bilateral permits and it is normal practice for countries to conclude bilateral road transport agreements with one another with a view to facilitating the operation and development of this traffic.

My Department are currently negotiating a series of such agreements with a number of European countries. Agreements with France, Belgium and the Federal Republic of Germany are already in operation. The agreements enable Irish hauliers to obtain, direct from my Department, the necessary permits to operate to, from or in transit across the countries concerned, instead of having to apply to the transport authorities of those countries.

Work on the negotiation of further agreements is proceeding. Talks with the Italian authorities, which commenced last year, on the conclusion of a bilateral agreement are to be resumed very shortly. Draft agreements received from the UK and the Netherlands are being considered in my Department. As the need arises the question of opening negotiations on similar agreements with other European countries will be considered.

As part of the liberalisation of international road transport, agreement is reached from time to time both in the EEC and the ECMT and also in the course of the negotiations of bilateral road transport agreements for the exemption from licensing control of certain international road freight or road passenger transport operations. The necessary exemptions in relation to EEC liberalisation measures can be made by way of ministerial order under the European Communities Act, 1972, but there are at present no statutory provisions which would enable me to make similiar exemptions in the other cases I have mentioned. The purpose of section 5 is to remedy this deficiency.

There is a very important provision in section 2 which provides for the exemption from licensing controls of vehicles under 2.5 metric tons unladen weight subject to a maximum weight of six metric tons fully laden. This type of exemption is found in a number of European Community enactments and is one which I am sure will solve many of the problems to which local transport needs give rise particularly in rural and especially in remote areas. The large truck favoured by the licensed hauliers has not been really suitable or capable of being economically used for such traffic because of the nature of the traffic and the short distances normally involved. After the passing of this measure it will be open to enterprising local men in each area to provide the light vehicle road freight services that may be needed locally. In doing so they will be able to get valuable experience which should be very useful if they subsequently wish to enter the haulage industry at national or international level. It would also give full freedom to those who wish to provide groupage or express services to do so within the terms of the proposed exemption. In fact, I also see the light vehicle service as a complement to and a feeder service for the heavy road vehicles which represent the major business in road freight transport and, indeed, for the railways as well. In all the circumstances I am satisfied that there is not now any justification for statutory control of haulage in the smaller units.

Section 2 proposes another exemption from licensing requirements to cover the carriage of wheat, oats and barley during the harvest period. I am opposed to commodity exemptions and would not have considered this one except that there had been for many years what amounted to an all year round exemption for the carriage of wheat. For technical reasons this was discontinued following our entry into the EEC and while administrative arrangements to provide an assured supply of transport were made in succeeding years amended legislation was clearly preferable. It was also clear that to make new statutory arrangements for the carriage of wheat without providing for barley and oats would be very difficult to justify. It would also be very difficult to justify an exemption for all cereals for the whole year. If all cereals were to be provided for then the better idea seemed to be to confine the exemption to the harvest period. I feel sure that with their new freedom licensed hauliers in general will be able to offer a more comprehensive service to the farming community than they have done before and that the farming community will respond accordingly, resorting to the exemption only in exceptional circumstances.

The licensed hauliers have made representations to me in relation to penalties for illegal haulage. The provisions of the 1933 Act and the Transport Act, 1958, are complicated, in that they involve doubling and redoubling of fines for repeated offences up to a maximum of £320, and unrealistic in that they include forfeiture of the vehicle used. There are provisions for both minimum and maximum fines and the whole arrangement is difficult to interpret and administer. Considering the value of road haulage vehicles nowadays I think a penalty of forfeiture of vehicles would be impossible either to defend or impose and I see no justification for retaining an enforcement provision which no one would contemplate invoking. Section 2 of the Bill proposes the simpler, more realistic fine of £250 for a first offence and £500 for second or subsequent offences.

I should add that it is my belief that the need for severe fines will diminish as illegal haulage becomes less attractive through licensed hauliers being in a position to offer a better deal than they now can. Moreover, intending hauliers who have committed repeated offences will find themselves unable to comply with the EEC access directive and thus debarred from being granted licences even on transfer, while new licensees may find their licences invalidated if they commit excessive breaches of the law. I expect a changing picture in the enforcement field over the next few years and will keep the needs under review.

Every licensed haulier is required by law to have a vehicle plate affixed to each vehicle in use under his licence. Under existing legislation the plate has to be made of metal and be of uniform pattern irrespective as to whether or not the relevant licence is restricted as to area or commodity or in any other such manner. There has been pressure particularly by the hauliers for a change which would require the use of a distinctive plate on a vehicle in use under a restricted licence. The case has been made that this would help the Garda in enforcing road transport legislation and thereby help to curb misuse of vehicle plates in cases where, it is claimed, vehicles are being used illegally in connection with haulage which does not come within the scope of the licence held. I accept generally the validity of the argument made. The provision which I propose in section 7 would give me the necessary scope to prescribe different type plates for a particular type of carriage, for instance, or for the use under a restricted licence.

I have decided that it is desirable that the Garda Síochána, who issue vehicle plates, be given authority to present evidence in court by way of a certificate signed by a chief superintendent or a superintendent acting on his behalf as to the issue or non-issue of a vehicle plate in a particular case. This would obviate the need for the attendance in court of a member of the Garda to give such evidence and would be in line with a similar provision in existing road transport legislation for the presentation of evidence in relation to the issue or non-issue of a merchandise licence to a particular person or company. Section 7 contains provisions accordingly.

The provision in section 9 of the Bill tackles a problem that has existed since 1956 when, in effect, it became illegal to use a hired vehicle to carry one's own goods. The purpose of the 1956 Act was to prevent people who had no licences from using their vehicles for reward by hiring them out —a loophole which existed in the legislation of the time. This measure was passed before leasing as we know it today became commonplace and we now have had, for many years, the serious anomaly that a businessman can lease all the premises, plant and equipment required for his business except for transport equipment. The barrier to vehicle leasing is also, I believe, unique in the EEC.

Repeal of the 1956 Act would, of course, open again the loophole which it was intended to close in the first place and could also lead to an upsurge in own account transport which would run counter to the objective of the present measure. On the other hand, some easement may enable firms who have been commiting capital to own account vehicles to diversify their approach and commence leasing as a stepping stone to the increased use of professional transport. Change could also ensure the release of capital from transport investment to investment in manufacture and job creation.

Accordingly, I have decided to provide for vehicle leasing within the framework of the merchandise licence system by making it legal to lease out vehicles if the lessor holds a merchandise licence. The 1956 Act will remain in force but I will have power to regulate leasing outside the provisions of the Act by the attachment of appropriate conditions to the merchandise licences. I might add that decontrol of vehicles up to 2.5 metric tons in weight as is proposed in section 2 effectively repeals the 1956 Act in regard to that category of vehicle. The situation in relation to leasing will be an evolving one and I will keep developments under close review.

In preparing these legislative proposals I have taken into account the consideration that the structure and circumstances enforced on the road freight industry of Ireland have deprived able and hard-working members of the industry of any real opportunity to earn a just reward for skill, hard work, enterprise and investment. We owe to our hauliers an opportunity to demonstrate what they can do for the Irish economy before considering measures of liberalisation running beyond those contemplated in this Bill.

There will be an immediate cost saving for hauliers who want to extend their businesses. The present position is that the enterprising haulier who wants to expand say, from two vehicles to three, can do so only by acquiring another business at a very high cost. The measure now proposed will allow him to expand without having to undertake that financial burden so that a very substantial cost saving will have been achieved.

Unless we have changes the defects of the existing system will remain and probably increase. CIE and the other licensed hauliers would be competing for a diminishing share of the market and own account transport, which represents the real competition for them, would continue to develop with its adverse cost implications.

The present measure offers a positive approach to current road freight transport problems. It seeks to achieve a better balance between own account and professional transport and to lay a foundation for a new regime less costly than it might otherwise be which would meet national road freight transport needs on an improved basis with corresponding benefits to the licensed hauliers, including CIE. This main objective will have beneficial side effects of several kinds including the prospect of avoiding excessive increase in vehicle numbers on the roads and achieving a market and rapid improvement in some sectors, notably in relation to rural transport.

The Bill will be of direct benefit to the holders of the main stock of merchandise licenses and the enterprising hauliers who are prepared to enter international transport. This is only as it should be. The haulage business of to-day is based on the former; the latter represent the hopes for its future. It is up to them to take full advantage of the opportunities which the Bill affords. The matching purpose is to secure benefit for all transport users not only with an improvement in the supply of transport but also from the greater efficiency and economy which the Bill should make possible in transport services. The freedom which the Bill offers for the use of light vehicles is potentially a great benefit for rural areas and along with others already mentioned should lead rapidly to a new and welcome era in the development of the Irish transport industry. I am satisfied that the package is a good one. It offers progress on many fronts and it take full account of existing difficulties.

I confidently commend this Bill to the House.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to address myself to this Bill. Substantially this Bill replaces the Road Transport Bill of 1976 which was introduced when the party of which I am a member were in Government, by Deputy Peter Barry and which lapsed on the change of Government. Fundamentally, it is much the same Bill with the difference that the Bill we had proposed at that time went somewhat further than merely phasing in the liberalisation of the road transport system. It is an area of life in this country in which a great many anomalies have grown up to make completely nonsensical the Act of 1933 with the various amendments to it which we have inherited since then. It is true to say that the objectives of the 1933 Act have failed to a very large extent. There has been overwhelming reason to introduce amending legislation which we on this side of the House welcome.

There are some general observations which should be made to show the extent to which the objectives of the 1933 Act were not achieved. One of the main objectives at that time was the protection of the place of the national transport system in the road haulage world or in the freight world in general, including railways. Yet, we have the situation today that statistically about 80 per cent of all haulage is done privately by companies or individuals owning their own trucks and the balance of 20 per cent is shared by CIE and road haulage contractors operating under licence. This is vastly different from the position that obtains in most other countries in Europe where the percentage of carriage done by people who own their own transport is of the order of approximately half the percentage in this country. This is a vast difference which shows the extent to which the objectives of 1933, regardless of how meritorious they were, have not been achieved. We have the highest percentage of what is called own account transport in Europe. To a large extent, the high proportion of private transport is due to the anomalies introduced where haulage contractors were concerned. A freight haulage system obtained within this country because of the various restrictions which were obviously to the detriment of commerce and industry and agriculture. Any liberalisation in this area—we can disagree about aspects of it, about the extent to which that liberalisation is taking place—is welcome and in general terms this Bill is obviously welcome and for that reason we support it.

I noted that the Minister in the Dáil was critical to an extent of individual transport people who carry for themselves. There were suggestions that it was inefficient and suggestions that there were duplications. I do not accept that criticism. It may have been in a speech drafted by the people in his Department. I think there is undue criticism in that field because in the private sector there was no alternative other than to get into the transport industry for the moving of goods. In the first instance, CIE had, to an extent, a monopoly position which worked efficiently and very effectively on mainline areas. In other words, if you were living adjacent to rail lines within this country where goods could be moved to and from major centres, they gave an excellent service. I stand in admiration of CIE against many of their critics because I am personally aware of the level of efficiency that obtains in their industry, which is an extremely difficult one. The problem for the private people in industry or in farming or in business was that when one got into the outlying areas CIE were placed in a most appalling position. If one went into Galway or Westport station and if CIE had a statutory requirement to provide a road transport service to outlying parts of Connemara, Belmullet or Louisburgh, they were in a most appalling position which led to a great many anomalies. In addition there is the situation where, with the restriction on the number of licensed haulage plates and with the particularly unique means of expansion for licensed haulage people, the only means of expanding was buying another business at immense capital cost. There was not, obviously, a sufficient availability of keenly priced transport to offer the service. As a result of this there was a huge increase in the private sector. I do not agree that it has been inefficient. The point has been overstated by the Minister in his speech in terms of his criticism of those people because there was no alternative.

In welcoming the easing of the restrictions the Minister could have gone even further to allow for certain outlying areas. Apart from CIE having problems many of the licensed hauliers will have problems in providing an efficient service to many outlying areas in west Donegal, west Kerry, west Cork, west Mayo and west Galway. In areas such as those there is a very strong case to be made for allowing those people who are in agriculture or business generally in such areas when returning from, say, Dublin with an empty truck—I am speaking personally and not for my party in this regard— to help out neighbours by arranging a full load. In certain circumstances it is the only efficient means of operation. If one goes from west Donegal or west Kerry to a haulage contractor in Limerick to do something where there might not be back-loading or where there might be a limited tonnage involved, one is not making the position any more efficient.

I welcome in particular the introduction of a section which will mean that in future the Minister will authorise exemptions from licensing controls for small trucks. My quibble with the Minister in this regard is that he does not go sufficiently far. Under section 2 the Minister proposes to allow such an exemption from licensing controls of vehicles of under 2½ metric tons unladen weight or a maximum of 6 metric tons laden. That is most welcome because it is a common-sense, practical measure where within a small radius there are needs to be met for the farm, shop or local factory it is eminently sensible that there should be freedom from restrictions in this area. The situation that legally had obtained regarding licensed haulage contractors geared for larger trucks and larger movement of goods, or CIE with the problem they had in such outlying areas, left an utterly impossible situation where goods would simply not be shifted had the law been adhered to. The facts of life are that for the last 20 years a coach and four was being driven through that law. So, obviously, bad laws needs amendment, and I welcome that amendment.

The authorities, through the years, were reasonable. There was a common-sense policy adopted throughout the country by the Minister. However, the anomaly needed to be corrected legally and that correction is welcome. The Minister, in this section, does not go sufficiently far. If we are talking about large volumes of goods being moved, about a maximum of 6 tons laden weight with a maximum of 2.5 metric tons unladen, we are talking about the carriage of 3½ tons of goods. I grant that there must be a cut-off point, but I do not accept that the cut-off point in terms of tonnage of 3½ tons in this age is reasonable. We are in an age of much more intensive agriculture and the movement of goods. With more intensive agriculture we are talking about larger tonnages. One could easily have increased that exemption from possibly a maximum of 6 metric tons laden to, for example, something around the 10 ton mark without anybody being hurt, because presumably the only purpose of the exemption in the first place was to help those people in the business, the licensed haulage people and CIE. I do not think CIE, or the licensed haulage contractors, would have been hurt in any sense had the maximum been raised from 6 metric tons to 10 metric tons. I would welcome the Minister's comments in his reply in regard to this matter, because it is deserving of amendment.

It is interesting that in this section the comment is made by the Minister that we are following what has been enacted in many EEC countries before this. To a degree we are dragging our heels in this section, and it is another example of the benefit of the EEC to us in that we are finding out in many areas of life that to get into line with what has been established practice for a number of years this type of amending legislation is required. I would certainly welcome an increase in that sector.

In this section the carriage of cattle. sheep and pigs is made exempt, and again that is welcome. So also is the period of the harvest for newly harvested wheat, oats or barley. It is possible that this might have been drafted in a broader fashion. The liberalisation here is sensible and, indeed, very necessary because in harvest time with the movement of grain there is the position where there is a vast tonnage to be worked during a limited few weeks and during that limited time the licensed haulage trade which is geared to year round business, and CIE with freight potential which is limited also, simply cannot, in practice, cope. It is absolutely vital that through the harvest time if wheat, barley or oats has to be shifted, it must be shifted on the day it is needed to be done. It is sensible that that should be liberalised.

I hope the Minister will not take exception if I introduce a personal interest; I am not speaking for my party in this specific area. In the west of Ireland there is an industry with which I am connected, the seaweed industry. I am declaring my interest so that it is not suggested at a later stage that I was speaking from personal motivation. In that industry there is a road haulage problem as well. A number of prosecutions took place in the courts some years ago which were completely anti-social. The reason they were anti-social is that if one wants to move seaweed fromt the foreshore to a seaweed factory in Connemara, Clare or Mayo and if the system that obtains generally is one in which in a particular village one man owns a tractor and traditionally he has used that tractor to carry in the seaweed of his neighbours as well as his own in circumstances in which CIE or licensed hauliers would not have the least interest in going onto the foreshore, there is a very bad law if he is not catered for. Having said that, there has not been a problem because the authorities have been helpful in not pressing the issue. When talking about legislation of this type I wonder if it would be possible for the Minister to accept an amendment under which the carriage of seaweed for these very sensible human reasons would be exempt. It is a small aspect of national life but it is important where we live. It is such a tiny factor nationally that an amendment in this area would not, in my view, be creating a precedent in relation to any other type of commodity. I would be most appreciative if the Minister could look kindly at what I have been saying which, indeed, is to the general interest of the semi-State company involved in this sector also.

The lifting of the restrictions for the licensed haulage contractors is desirable because we had farcical anomalies which were completely outdated where individual haulage people had plates, for example, for one vehicle licence and under which, if this person was a keen person providing a good service he could only expand in his business by purchasing other businesses. That was an unacceptable position. The fact that the Bill proposes to authorise six vehicles per licence for those who had one vehicle licence previously is most welcome. The extension of that by a multiplier of six down the line is very sensible and should provide a much more efficient road transport service, which will be welcomed by the private sector. It might at last help to achieve the desired objective of a lesser volume of traffic on the roads which would be more concentrated in the hands of professional people. Certainly, the restrictions which we have had to date have had a counter-productive effect. In my view the more one liberalises in this area the more one is going to have the possibility of achieving the objectives in an age where our roads are more than inadequate for the traffic they are bearing.

The international haulage market issue and the liberalisation there in so far as refrigerated haulage and other export transport is concerned is also welcomed by my party, because in that area we are not in the national arena and we are not talking about competition within this island. We are talking about the possibility of building up what could effectively be termed a new industry. It seems to me that the more we encourage Irish companies to get involved in international haulage the more we are directly creating more jobs in a new sector and, of course, we are providing a much better service for the vital links which we need in export fields as an island which is vitally concerned with the issue of exports. There is scope outside as well. Liberalisation there is necessary. The effects of lesser reliance on hauliers from other countries which this should have are most welcome.

With the two views which I expressed contrary to the Bill—the possibility of increasing under section 2 the exemption from licensing authorities and, the consideration that the Minister might give to increasing the 2.5 metric tonnes unladen and 6 metric tonnes laden to perhaps the ten tonne mark—I welcome it. What I have suggested could be done without hurting anybody and would make for better law. Frankly, my view is that while the Minister is easing the position by introducing this section, for the future the law will still not be adhered to and a coach and four will continue to be driven through that section. It would be more realistic for the Minister to face that fact now. We know the history. We had a 1933 Act and we had amendments in 1971. Effectively, this is the last year in which we are talking about amending road transport legislation for perhaps another decade and it would be, in my view, wiser of the Minister to think in terms of the 1980s in this area. I would welcome his views.

It gives me great pleasure to speak on this Bill. As has been said by the previous speaker there is a great need for rationalisation and liberalisation of our transport industry. When the first Bill dealing with transport was brought in in 1933, the needs of the transport industry were very few because they were servicing a small industrial sector. As industrial expansion has taken place there is a need for a very professional attitude towards transportation. The support that is given to industry by the transport industry is not often taken cognisance of by many people. One will hear a lot of criticism of the industry because of the size of their vehicles, the speed they travel along the roads and the damage they do on the roads, but in effect the damage done to the roads is not caused by the vehicles but because we have not got a road system capable of holding these vehicles which are a necessary support to every industrial enterprise here.

If we have an efficient transport system we can have an efficient industrial sector because our goods will be transported quickly and efficiently from place to place. We need a professional transport industry. I welcome the Bill which allows for the liberalisation of the road hauliers' licensing system and gives them an opportunity to multiply their existing licences by six. It was proposed by the Coalition Government that there should be complete liberalisation in this regard and that all road haulage licensees should have an unlimited number of vehicles per licence. I do not think this would lead to an efficient industry. There must be a cut-off point and the Minister has reached it in six.

The road haulage industry is becoming more professional and in the liberalisation to six vehicles per licence the efficient operator will have a way of adapting his fleet to the needs of the area he serves. Up to now because of the single licence system he was possibly stuck with operating within one area. He did not have the capability of adapting his fleet for the varying types of commodities for which he was sometimes asked to contract. One needs flats, articulated vehicles and low-strung vehicles. One needs a lot of different types of vehicles to deal with the varying items which have to be hauled on our roads.

A more professional road haulage system would give the operators scope to make the profits which are needed to maintain the fleets in the manner in which they should be maintained. I agree with the Minister that the transfer from own-account business to road haulage transporters is a necessary one because too often in the past it has been the case that own-account people have felt that the transportation of their goods was a necessary evil and the last thing they felt should be maintained in their company in a reasonable manner was the truck or the series of trucks used to haul their own goods. We have found that a lot of the vehicles used by own-account people were not of a high enough quality to be on the roads and, in actual fact, were a danger in many cases. This is not always the case. Some of the own-account hauliers are amongst the most efficient in keeping their trucks in order. I would not like every own-account person to be tarred with the brush of being inefficient in the maintenance of his vehicle.

The Bill must be made effective. We can bring a Bill in but if it is not effectively policed it is going to be of no use. At present we have in the Carriage Office what I would consider to be an understaffing position. This means that there are not sufficient people on the road to check on the use of licences or to check on the vehicles operating. This is an area which must be looked into. A Bill is only as effective as the operation of it. There must be a proper means of checking the use of the extra licences issued. The extra licences give the haulage contractors the necessary leeway to increase their fleets without the severe burden which was placed on them in the past of having to purchase licences at very inflated rates. This must lead to efficiency in the industry. They can now invest their money in the fleet rather than in purchasing new licences.

It is time that a transport authority was set up here to continue looking into the needs of the transport industry. The Minister is of the opinion that this is necessary also. I sincerely hope it comes into force in the near future. I also feel that the fines to be imposed under section 2 are reasonable considering the liberalisation that has taken place. However, I feel that they should be mandatory. It might seem strong to use the word "mandatory" but there is a degree of liberalisation allowed now and I do not think there will be any need for the illegal haulage that was taking place in the past. The fact that there has been liberalisation will mean that there will be more scope for people to increase their fleets. In this regard I do not think that CIE in future should be allowed to plate vehicles indiscriminately. If CIE in future need to bring in outside haulage units to work for them they should use the licensed haulier.

The liberalisation in regard to the smaller vehicles, the 2½ to 6½ ton, is a very good move because it is becoming increasingly impossible to get small parcels and small amounts of goods transported from place to place. CIE have cut out the carriage of small parcels from place to place where the fast-track-buses or the super-fast-buses operate. It is virtually impossible, for instance, to get a parcel by bus from Kilkenny to Clonmel. It now takes three days, and that is only 30 miles.

Does the bus take three days?

The bus does not take three days but the parcel takes three days. There is a need for liberalisation in this area.

Does the Senator think that six tons is enough?

One can have a cut-off point in anything and six tons is as good a cut-off point as any. The use of this will be in the transportation of the small lot, the ton, the ½ ton or the three ton lot. No matter what cut-off point we have I do not feel everybody would be satisfied. We will now have as good a cut-off point as any other.

Though it has caused trouble in the past I am glad there are exemptions in the agricultural area, particularly in the area of wheat and corn during the season. As has been stated by Senator Staunton it is necessary to get the grain from the field into the mill immediately and it might not be possible in certain areas to get this done by outside transport.

One section states that vehicles being used by the haulage industry will be made subject to quality requirements to be drawn up under EEC auspices. This will be helped by the liberalisation, because we will get more professional people in transport and the repair and maintenance of vehicles will be up to the standard required by EEC in this regard. The transfer of business from own-account to the road haulage licensee is necessary. It will mean that we will have, more than likely, fewer trucks on the road. It will help industry to divert scarce resources from transport to the actual business in which they are involved. They will be able to use the licensees to a greater degree than they have been in the past. There has been liberalisation in the international sector, and this is welcome because the efficient transportation of goods from here to the Continent is of paramount importance, particularly in the refrigerated area of the business.

We have a very efficient international haulage association here and they are to be complimented on what they have done in the past towards getting our goods to the continental markets speedily and efficiently. I am glad to see that the Minister is looking into the possibility of getting over all the red-tape that has to be gone into by road hauliers in dealing with exports and that he is talking with the Italian authorities about a bilateral agreement.

This Bill will, to a large degree, satisfy the needs of the haulage industry. There may be small anomalies in it but in general it is a good Bill which will be welcomed by the haulage industry. If it is satisfactory to the haulage industry it will be satisfactory to our economy.

I should like to remind the Minister of two statements. The first comes from his own party's manifesto which states:

Fianna Fáil will establish a transport authority to investigate and report on the measures necessary to achieve the most efficient and economic transport system for goods and passengers having regard to the need to maintain a flexible competitive transport system.

The second quotation is:

...ours is not to reason why, but to pay up. Perhaps we should consider putting aside some money and advertising—"Wanted. One transport policy for small country. Large reward offered."

That quotation is from The Irish Times of 28 July 1973, from an article written by Dr. Martin O'Donoghue, now Minister for Economic Planning and Development. That was 1973. Perhaps Dr. O'Donoghue has been converted since then.

This Bill just is not getting anywhere at all. It is enforcing restrictions in an industry which if the restrictions were placed by private individuals or private industries would immediately be challenged by the Restrictive Practices Commission. I am pretty sure we will be forced into the situation by the EEC of abolishing our licences altogether in the near future. That is what this Bill should have done. The haulage system is already out of control. Other speakers have pointed out that in certain areas, as far as certain commodities and certain goods are concerned, the law is not being applied at all. Everybody knows this.

As far as farm produce is concerned people are hauling other people's farm produce without licences right, left and centre, and they are perfectly right. Senator Staunton has made that point.

The original intention of a restrictive licensing system as far as haulage of goods was concerned was to protect our transport system. As Senator Lanigan has pointed out it was established in 1933 when the whole economic situation was entirely different. We are in the latter quarter of the twentieth century now and I notice in the Minister's speech that he has never once mentioned the need to protect CIE. Since that was the reason for issuing restrictive licences what is the point in continuing them? Why cannot we abolish the licences? The situation is that only a handful of licences have been issued since 1933. A licence now can change hands at a cost of about £9,000 and that cost is immediately added to the price the consumer has to pay for his transport.

Those who have held licences have done well out of them since most of them are out since 1933 and I would like to see all those licences abolished. The only licensing system we should have is one of quality of vehicle, safety factors being taken into account. I notice that most of the Western European countries—if you exclude Portugal and Greece—we are the only country which does not have regular mandatory inspections of goods vehicles.

That is the sort of licensing there should be, and there should not be any more restriction. Hauliers have done well. The hauliers who are already in business and work efficiently would do even better and those who have not got licences should not have to buy somebody else's business and pay a premium of £9,000 to get their plate. They should be able to run their lorries and haul anybody's goods without restriction.

I should like to give some figures to illustrate the bad situation we are in relative to Northern Ireland where there is no restriction on vehicle licences. I am going to give figures for tonnage of cross-Border haulage since 1967 and anybody who travels around the road in the south sees fleets of vehicles from Northern Ireland. They are running the stuff right, left and centre all over the country, and the reason for this is because our own licensing system is so restriotive. Incidentally, if one is talking about cross-Border haulage, I see that the railway across the Border in south Armagh was blown up again last night for the umpteenth time. It seems to me that those people—presumably the Provisional IRA—who blow up railways so regularly in south Armagh must be opposed to Irish unity because they seem to be restricting——

This is not relevant on this debate.

It is a cross-Border haulage problem and it must be dealt with. If one wants to restrict communication between the two parts of the country one must be opposed to Irish unity. The figures I wish to give as far as cross-Border haulage is concerned are that in 1967 out of a total of 200,000 tons of cross-Border traffic 100,000 was hauled by carriers in Northern Ireland and 100,000 by carriers based in the south; in 1968 the figures were 180,000 tons by northern based carriers, 110,000 tons by southern based carriers; in 1969 265,000 tons by northern based carriers and 100,000 tons by southern based carriers; in 1970 275,000 tons by northern based carriers, 85,000 tons by southern based carriers; in 1971 257,000 tons hauled by northern based carriers, 95,000 tons hauled by southern based carriers; in 1972 233,000 tons hauled by northern based carriers, 93,000 tons by southern based carriers; and in 1973 269,000 tons hauled by northern based carriers, 94,000 tons hauled by southern based carriers. Those figures are from the Confederation of Irish Industries Report on road freight transport during 1973-74.

In 1973 the northern based carriers hauled three times as much traffic across the Border as the southern based carriers. That gives a clear idea of the state of our transport industry. We cannot compete. This is not saying that all the goods are coming from the north to the south, because they are not. The system of restrictive licensing is holding us back, and I think that all licences should be abolished. However, I seem to be a lone voice crying in the wilderness. I know that the present licensed hauliers form a powerful lobby and, of course, this would not suit them. It might be in the national economic interest. I would say to the present licensed hauliers that they would do extremely well. There are very efficient licensed hauliers working in this part of the country, and under an open ended system they would do as well if not better than they are doing at the moment. The efficient hauliers would score, the inefficient would fail and the economy would benefit because costs of haulage would go down dramatically if we did not have the licensing system.

I do not know what the raison d'etre for it now is. It was introduced to deal with the situation in 1933 to protect our own public transport system, and there is no need for that anymore. The Minister in his address made no case for a continuation of the licences. He made no case for the protection of CIE and at this stage that case is no longer a valid one, and so we should do what is being done in the other European countries and we will be forced to do that by EEC regulations. We will be forced to open our haulage to allow our people to haul when and where they will. Essentially, the only restriction will be on the quality and the safety of the vehicles involved. Everybody knows that own account haulage is inefficient because one takes one's own product from one place to another and one supposedly comes back with one's lorry empty, but very few own account hauliers do. The law is broken right left and centre, and the question is, if the law is going to be changed is it still going to be broken right, left and centre? No creamery pays any attention to the law as it stands. Everybody knows people are hauling milk in all directions without licences and they are perfectly right to, because the legislation under which we are operating is outdated and I regret to say that the Department have not had the nerve and they have not taken the plunge that they should have taken and they have not gone the whole hog.

We are talking about everybody welcoming the liberalisation of transport legislation. Yet a Bill that was introduced in 1976 is less restrictive than this Bill. I cannot see what the reason is. Nobody seems to have made a case for it. The only thing that I can think of is that the hauliers' lobby has a good deal of muscle and it is getting these restrictions maintained.

If we are going to have restrictions all farm produce should be exempt. There is no argument for allowing the transport of livestock unlicensed and in prohibiting the transport of horses. Fish should be exempt. It needs to be hauled rapidly in refrigerator transport from one county to another.

The Minister has some liberalisation of the laws as far as agricultural commodities are concerned, but if he is going to keep restrictive licences he should exempt all of our agricultural produce because agriculture is our most important industry—it has become so much more important and our agricultural industry so much more efficient since we entered the EEC. If we are going to maintain our competitiveness, and I have no doubt that the Irish agricultural industry can, then we should help the industry by granting total exemption for all agricultural produce.

I want to put down a number of amendments on Committee Stage. We badly need the establishment of a transport authority and the working out of an overall transport policy, because if we do not have that we are going to get this piecemeal type of legislation which is minimal liberalisation of a very much out-dated 40-year-old restrictive legislation, and it is not in our overall national economic interest. It may be in the interest of certain small groups.

The position of CIE and the whole economy needs to be looked at.

I do not know whether the Minister was here when I spoke on the transport debate before but he may know that I am a keen supporter of CIE. I cannot find any argument in either his speech in the Dáil on this Bill, or in the Seanad, about the need to protect CIE. We are moving away from that situation as far as road haulage is concerned and we need a national transport authority. We need to work out a coherent national transport policy. What worries me is that we are going to be forced by the EEC to make radical changes in our transport legislation without making up our own minds. That is what is going to happen and that is what is going to abolish all these restrictive practices. It is a pity that we have not taken our courage into own own hands and made up our own minds about the sort of policy that we need before we are forced to make changes by the EEC.

There are just one or two points which I want to make very quickly as there appears to be a large measure of agreement on this Bill on both sides of the House. The basic aim of the Bill is to try to encourage people who are involved in private transport, what has been called own account transport, which I see from the Minister's speech accounts for up to 80 per cent of freight in this country, to use CIE and to use other licensed professional hauliers. It is very touching to here Senator West worrying about protecting CIE because from my reading of this Bill and from reading the Minister's speech in the Dáil it is clear that one of the purposes of the Bill is to attract business to professional hauliers. In doing that one will of course attract business to CIE as professional hauliers. I see the Bill as being of considerable help to CIE and to professional hauliers generally and not, as Senator West was pointing out, in any way damaging to CIE.

The point has been made on a number of occasions, and it is well worth making again, that private transport, or what is being called own account transport, is very uneconomic here for the reasons given, the fact that one carries to one area and perhaps not back and all of these other inefficiencies in the system. It also adds to congestion on our roads but with professional hauliers like CIE and the other private professional hauliers there is no reason for the plethora of trucks on our roads. If we can attract them away from this and get them to use the professionals in the business it will be to our advantage and that is well worth bearing in mind. That is the overall purpose of this Bill and if we bear that in mind then we will not get ourselves into legal knots and tangles about multipliers and so on. Figures from Northern Ireland have shown that when they started to liberalise the transport there that it led to a reduction in the total number of vehicles on the roads and I can only hope that we achieve a similar result here. I believe that we will.

Another point which I would like to make is that most companies here, particularly small companies, could apply their funds far better than by providing their own transport and this is so if there are top class professional hauliers available for them. They could put their money into areas which will more directly affect the job-creation programme. If the problem of providing their own transport is taken off their backs then I believe they will be able to do that.

I have a personal worry here which is probably the subject for another debate, perhaps under the heading of the environment, but I would like to mention that I am very concerned about the bigger trucks on our roads, the juggernauts. They are dangerous, they damage the roads, they damage the health of our people generally. When we come to discussing environment in this House that is something we should take into consideration. The juggernaut is a modern social monster and is something that all of us as a community in this country will have to look at closely in the years ahead. It often struck me as an ordinary individual travelling up and down to the west and down to Cork that the mainline rail should be used a lot more by people who want to haul stuff around this country. It does not make sense to be stuck behind a stream of trucks going down to Cork and at the same time there is a railroad going that same way. There is no reason why CIE and all the interests involved could not organise it so that freight travels by rail as much as possible, particularly on mainline routes.

While CIE are relatively efficient in that area, road hauliers, including CIE, would have to reach a very high level of professional competence because their job is to induce people to come from private owners and do business with them. This Bill is helping them in that and CIE and the other professional hauliers should at this stage try to increase their efficiency. By doing that they will induce people to do business with them.

Some 70 per cent of the haulier firms operate one-vehicle fleets. Senator West said that this Bill was not really a liberalisation Bill. It is clear that if there is a large investment needed to expand to up to six vehicles per licence this is going to be difficult for most of the one-vehicle owners. If this legislation is to achieve what it set out to achieve then it is necessary that they get the encouragement to take on that expansion. If these one-vehicle fleets can expand to the extent of what is being permitted in this Bill, and even that leaves them a long way to climb, then it is sufficiently liberalising. Senator West has nothing to worry about.

In conclusion, I hope we can very shortly have an overall review of transport in this country to co-ordinate better the freight services by train, bus, plane and so on and to discuss the future developments of our roads but, I appreciate this cannot be done under this Bill.

Fianna Fáil in their election manifesto promised to introduce a transport consultative commission and I know that the Minister is anxious about this and is pursuing it. I would like this commission at some stage to take a long hard look at the type of problem which I have outlined briefly, particularly in regard to what I can only describe as this modern social monster of the juggernaut. In general, however, this is a very good Bill. It goes a long way towards improving our haulage industry. I thank the Minister in particular for an excellent introductory speech, some 18 pages of an introductory speech, which clearly lays out the problems and the solutions as he sees them. It shows the respect which the Minister has for the Seanad when he has produced a document like this. It is very well put together. It is a very good Bill. It is a start to revolutionise the haulage business and that can only be to our benefit in the end. In the long term we in this community must all sit down and take an overall look at the problems on our roads, the clogging up by trucks and all the environment problems. I hope at some future stage in this Seanad that we can tackle that grave social problem which we have.

Few people will deny that some degree of liberalisation was desirable, if not necessary, in this question of freight haulage. However, knowing that this Bill will be particularly welcome to professional licensees at the moment who see in it certain opportunities for themselves, I think it is the business of this House to look at the reasons behind these liberalisation measures, and try and tease out the implications of such liberalisation not only for the business of commercial haulage but also for its effects on the environment. I am glad that Senator Brennan has raised the matter of environment because it is impossible to isolate such liberalisation as is embodied in the provisions of this Bill from the consequences on the environment. It is rather sad to find that there is as low as 10 per cent of freight haulage carried by the professional licensees, and the Minister has attributed this largely to the restrictive legislation which has existed to date. But I wonder if that small percentage by professional licensees, including the semi-State body of CIE, can be largely attributed to restrictive legislation. There may always be a preference on the part of business people and manufacturers to have their own transport for the haulage of freight and I wonder if in the past they have been inclined to provide their own transport because it was more convenient; also on the grounds of cost and perhaps even more important on the grounds that they would do the operation more efficiently than professional hauliers.

If there is any validity in these aspects of convenience and efficiency, and even cost, I wonder whether the provisions of this Bill will altogether eliminate these as the reasons for the low percentage carried by professional hauliers. Will the professional licensee provide a more attractive proposition for the owners of businesses? I think these are the sort of questions we should try to tease out for answer. Another question that can be asked is "Will this Bill stop illegal haulage?". I am afraid we will always have an amount of illegal haulage no matter what provisions or what legislation we bring in, even though the Minister feels that this Bill will reduce the need for severe fines as illegal haulage becomes less attractive through licensed hauliers being in a position to operate more extensively. I repeat, I am afraid we are always going to have people trying illegal haulage and it is on the question of fines that I find myself at odds with the provisions in the Bill. It is rather strange that the fine will now be a maximum of £500 as against a maximum, for the past 20 years, of £320. The penalty of forfeiture has been abolished altogether. I would have thought in the circumstances of this abolition of forfeiture that the fine should have been much higher than it will be. Threats of fines are not in themselves sufficient as a deterrent for illegal haulage and there must be very visible signs of action in this respect and there must be conviction, if the rationalisation we all seek in freight haulage is to be achieved.

If, in the long term, this rationalisation is achieved, I feel that unfortunately in the short term we are going to see a vast increase in the number of freight haulage trucks on our roads. That could mean that we are going to have much greater freight road use than is desirable in the context of our present environmental problems particularly in regard to roads. We should have, even now, a greater amount of freight haulage put on our railway lines to relieve the roads. The Minister sees in his and my native county of Louth certain problems in regard to the condition of the roads in that county being suitable to carry present volumes of freight haulage. He knows as well as I do that roads such as the Dundalk/Castleblayney road, Drogheda/Navan road, Ardee/Mullingar road, and even parts of the national primary routes are not able to carry the frequency and the volume of freight haulage which is at present experienced.

I think this is an example of the implications involved in the liberalisation measures in this Bill that have not been seen through by the Department to the point of realising the effect such liberalisation may well have.

I also wonder at the risk involved with the increase in the number of vehicles per licence which this Bill will provide, namely, that a licensee can now have six vehicles on the road with a single licence. It could well lead to a speculative position with regard to this question of licence acquisition, and licence purchasing. That in itself could lead to inflation in the value of licences which could well result in an increase in the costs of freight haulage, and start a vicious cycle in process which might well undo a lot of the good work which is envisaged in this liberalisation.

The question of the effects on CIE has been raised. I fear there may be a further diminution in the amount of freight haulage operated by CIE. We know the restrictions and constraints within which this semi-State body have always operated in regard to sufficient Exchequer funds being available for the performance of their services. The liberalisation envisaged by this Bill which will certainly lead, even in the short term, to an increase in the number of vehicles by professional individual hauliers could well result in a diminution in the haulage which CIE will be asked to carry, and in turn to a reduction in employment. The qualifications for eligibility for a licence have already been laid down by EEC directive. I would ask the Minister if this directive is at present in operation or will it be brought in on a phased basis?

I would put to the Minister the position in regard to foreigners coming into this country and taking out licences and putting up to a maximum of 80 vehicles, permissible under such licences, on the road. We appreciate that in the Irish context that might not be open to many Irish persons at present but certainly there are such people within the EEC countries who no doubt are capable of coming in and putting such a vast fleet on the road. This could lead within a regional basis to a monopoly situation. I wonder has the Department looked into this and seen the implications that could be inherent. I notice that the EEC directive on vehicle testing and vehicle safety on the roads will not be fully operational until 1983. What is the degree of the phasing in of this directive between now and 1983? As I foresee a big increase in the number of vehicles going on the roads in the haulage business in the short term, I think this question of vehicle safety and vehicle testing is most urgent and important. I would ask the Minister if he could give us the present position, and the likely outcome of the thorny question of tachographs which in the case of the UK has led to a pending court case. Where does Ireland stand in this regard? This tachograph system —where the drivers of haulage vehicles must comply with certain checks and controls as to safety rules on day-to-day operations—is a most desirable input into this industry and I would hate to think that there would be much of a delay in regard to its introduction in this country.

Summing up, I feel that this Bill will be welcomed particularly by professional hauliers who will be in a position to avail of its opportunities but I do not think that should deter us from spelling out the implications in regard to the large increase in vehicles which will be going on the roads in the short term as a result of the Bill; also the effects of delay in vehicle testing which will not be fully operational until another five years; the problems which the increase in haulage vehicles will bring to our roads which are vastly under-equipped for the volume and frequency of haulage traffic at present. The motivation behind the Bill certainly is a reasonable one. There have been restrictions, but I think the Bill is largely a step into the dark and only time will tell us exactly how beneficial it has been in achieving that long term rationalisation.

I also welcome this Bill in that it is controlled liberalisation of the transport industry. I would specially refer to the fact that it is controlled because it has been said the thing to do is to liberalise it completely without any future control. That would not be a good thing to do. What was intended in the legislation in 1933 was to control haulage so that CIE could expand and so that those already in the haulage business could expand. Over the years that did not work. Therefore today we could decide to liberalise transport completely. We might not be exactly right in our decision and thereby we might lose control. Having had control over the industry for so long it would be completely unfair to relax it and leave it wide open immediately.

Two main things have happened. One is that our transport has been taken over to a certain extent by vehicles from outside the country. We have been given figures on this by Senator West. Secondly, own goods transport has increased considerably. How did this happen? Naturally transport from outside was able to take up the slack, because we had not the vehicles on the road due to the control of our transport. But why, then, has own goods transport in creased to a certain extent? It has been said that it is inefficient. I agree with that, because one has the situation where a load can be sent from Dublin to Cork and the vehicle will come back empty and a load will go from Cork to Dublin and the vehicle will come back empty, whereas one vehicle could do the work of the two. That does not cover the whole situation. There is also the question that own transport has come in because goods can be delivered from the factory right to the points at which they are wanted. This is not always possible with public transport. Also, if specialised vehicles are needed for certain goods which require volume not load, special vehicles are made for them. Today there are special carriers for cement, flour, oil, liquid gas and so on. For that reason own goods transport has increased. It cannot just simply be replaced tomorrow by licensed hauliers.

What does this Bill do? This Bill will obviously increase the number of our vehicles to make our hauliers competitive to the vehicles coming from outside the country, but it will not necessarily solve all the problems. The Bill will create the condition to solve the problems, but it will be essential when this Bill is law that all hauliers carefully survey the market and relate their haulage and the facilities they give if they are going to convert the trade. Therefore we look to an efficient haulage industry so that eventually when, as the Minister says, there will be agreements with other countries in the EEC we can take our place and expand into international haulage as well. It has been said that this will increase the number of vehicles on the road. That is not what is intended. This should reduce the number of vehicles on the road, because if we halve inefficient own haulage and gain the haulage done by hauliers from outside the country, we are merely replacing the vehicles.

I look to the day when we can have a discussion on not alone transport but on transport relating to the environment, because we have a problem there which must be discussed at some length. I welcome this Bill as a movement towards the liberalisation of transport and not something which could create chaos, as complete liberalisation would probably do.

I do not welcome the Bill completely, but I am at any time prepared to welcome a liberalisation of the laws or regulations which govern road transport. We had restrictive regulations which over the years did a certain amount of damage to our economy by holding up progress in manufacturing industry and agriculture to some extent and by putting people into a situation where they have had to provide their own transport in parts of the country that were not very well serviced by licensed hauliers or by CIE, who were not all that interested or were not in a position for one reason or another to give the sort of service that was required.

I welcome a situation in which industry will be able to relieve itself of the responsibility and burden of providing transport. At present, with the cost of a unit possibly in the region of £20,000 or more, it is easy to see that even a small fleet of lorries requires the sort of investment that would establish a worth-while industry in which people could be employed. Very often the brains and the initiative that would otherwise have gone into improving manufacturing industry and services of other sorts have been taken up with the provision of transport. Transport does not need a big financier, a big businessman, or a semi-State organisation to deal with it. We always had too many people offering transport. There were always illegal hauliers looking for an opportunity at the fairs and the marts. Because they had no other opportunities, they saw the possibilities. A lorry could be bought on hire purchase by almost anybody who could get a guarantor or who had any property.

Therefore people were always prepared to provide that service. The vested interests may say that it was an inefficient service, that if competitors are allowed in freely they will undercut prices and eventually end up providing a most inefficient service. What we need in this industry, I believe, is to allow people in to complete freely. I am not saying there should not be any restrictions at all, but today we are moving towards a liberalisation of transport. Deep down we want to get rid of the restrictive situation we have had; but on the other hand, we are not prepared—we seem in some way to be apprehensive about it—to allow in all comers who have the initiative and the ambition to do the job. We are in one sense opening it up, but on the other hand we are restricting the privilege. We will not necessarily have the people with the ability to do the job, or people who are anxious to get into business and who see transport as an area where they might be able to give a service and earn a living. We will have the people who are already in the business, who inherited it. We will have the people who have held on to a licence they have not used maybe for years but who now can acquire perhaps six licences and can offer the lot for sale to somebody who must pay a big sum of money for what is in fact a Government licence. That is an aspect I do not like. In the past Government licences have been offered for sale.

We will have an informal suspension of business until the Minister returns from the division in the Dáil.

Is it proposed to adjourn for tea?

It is not in the orders of the House for today. The matter is in the hands of the House.

Could I suggest half an hour?

Business suspended at 6.10 p.m. and resumed at 6.45 p.m.

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