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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 15 Dec 1978

Vol. 90 No. 10

Appropriation Bill, 1978 [Certified Money Bill]: Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

One of the first items in the list of Departments dealt with in the Appropriation Bill is the premier Department of Government, that of the Taoiseach, and it is relevant under this heading to raise the general question of leadership in this country at the present time. Part of the national malaise is lack of leadership. Lemass, thou shouldst be living at this hour, Ireland hath need of thee!

Senator Lanigan referred to a lack of political will as part of the explanation that lies behind our economic and other difficulties and I would agree to a certain extent with this. But I do not think people by themselves can articulate a political will, they have to have leadership in that direction, and I think we lack any overall vision of where we are going or any leadership which would make us strive towards that vision. Paradoxically, the strongest Taoiseach in the history of the State is arguably the weakest, certainly in the history of single party Governments. An old Cork friend of mine used to say very profoundly, and this was in the days long before the 84 seats, "the strength of Jack Lynch is the weakness of the nation." Perhaps this weakness comes from the Taoiseach's being a kind of amiable reflection of a woolly Fianna Fáil consensus, indeed a woolly national consensus, rather than the shaper of his own consensus as he should be.

In recent weeks one hears from those who accompanied him on his European tour that he performed very well indeed. He is to be congratulated on refusing to accept unfavourable terms for EMS entry and must be complimented on a remarkable display of energy, enthusiasm and commitment, qualities which he usually reserves for analysing the composition of Cork hurling teams. Let us hope that this new found dynamism will be evident in the leadership of the nation at home. Whatever the outcome of the EMS or whatever decisions are taken, I think he will probably remember the experience of recent weeks. He might take a lesson from President Giscard D'Estaing's rebuff similar to the moral drawn by John Mitchel in 1848 when the second French republic disappointed the hopes of Irish nationalists. "I thank M. Lamar-tine", said Mitchel, "for letting us know that in the end we must rely on ourselves".

I take it that Northern Ireland, in so far as North-South relations are concerned, also comes under the heading of the Appropriation Bill, both in the Department of the Taoiseach and that of Foreign Affairs. It has been a non-year as far as Northern Ireland is concerned, what the Americans call a no wind situation. That is, of course, partly the result of Westminster politics but let us remind ourselves that we have a Government which has no policy on Northern Ireland. I have said on more than one occasion that repetitions of vague aspirations about wanting Irish unity by peaceful means are meaningless or at best merely negative preconditions. Who but a lunatic would wish for Irish unity by other than peaceful means?

To ask Britain to declare her interest in a united Ireland against the express will of a million Ulster people is a cheap and insincere if not reckless gesture, since it is not accompanied by any articulation of what shape a united Ireland might have, any real attempt to create an attractive and just society in the south, any intent to change a confessional Constitution, any real accommodation of historic Ulster Protestant fear, any move to dismantle the Catholic State. In all this the Government might well take note of a recent editorial in The Church of Ireland Gazette which was quoted in The Irish Times on 9 December. The editorial encouraged northern Protestants to debate the implications of unity now but castigated southern politicians for never having actually presented a form of all-Ireland Government which would give the northern Protestant the security he desires. The editorial goes on:

So far the Northern Protestant is being asked to give up what degree of self determination he has without any future relationship in an all-Ireland context being spelt out. Why are the Republic's politicians so reluctant to discuss the possibility of establishing some form of power sharing in a future all Ireland State? Indeed, the political negativism of Southern politicians on the unity issue seems to suggest that they have no constructive policy to offer but ultimately could not reject national unity even if it came as the fruit of the evil work of the Provisional IRA.

I think that hits off the position fairly accurately. In this morning's newspapers there is a report of the Taoiseach's comments yesterday in the Dáil on Northern Ireland in which he speaks of the stability which could flow from an agreed settlement which would be of immense benefit not only to the people of Northern Ireland but to this part of Ireland and to the United Kingdom. Indeed, nobody could disagree with that. Then he says the advantages of a solution achieved following reconciliation of all the different interests involved and based upon agreed political structures are becoming increasingly recognised. But the point surely is, as The Church of Ireland Gazette editorial suggests, that the agreed structures should be sketched out here and now and not await some far off day when a whole lot of unlikely people are going to get around a particular table.

Our intelligence is further insulted by some Fianna Fáil spokesmen who have lately been suggesting that common north-south membership of a directly elected European assembly will somehow help to bring about rapprochement. That is superficial and wishful thinking, as wishful as the vague hopes expressed during the referendum in 1972 that membership of the Community itself would bring about a closer harmony between north and south.

On the Department of Education figures, I do not wish to go over the same ground covered recently here when the Minister, Deputy Wilson brought in an amending Bill on higher education grants, except to say that I by no means support all student causes, but it seems to me that they have an incontrovertible case at the moment when they spotlight the injustice being done to students of the regional technical colleges and the fact that equality of educational opportunity is not being applied in their case. The Government might take note that students' claims in recent months, especially their opposition to any increase in university fees, are being supported by the Higher Education Authority. It is a pretty rare occasion when such a body finds itself in agreement with what the students are saying. Both the students and the HEA are saying that the thinking in the Green Paper on education is reactionary.

I would also like to deal in the future with a neglected area in education namely, adult education, but no doubt a suitable opportunity will arise. We are going to hear more about this from now on.

Now, I want to dwell on one particular implication of public grants for third level institutions. One way in which the State could demonstrate that it has separated itself from denominational involvement, and thus help in creating a more acceptable southern face to the north, would be to grasp the Maynooth nettle firmly and quickly. This should be done even if Northern Ireland never existed. As a pontifical university, and a national seminary for the training of Catholic priests, Maynooth has had an important part in the history of the country. Considered from these aspects, pontifical university or national seminary, what Maynooth does is its own business, and certainly no business of the State. Unfortunately, these aspects are related in a confused and anomalous way to the role of Maynooth as a recognised college of the National University of Ireland. Considered as a recognised college, Maynooth is funded in large part from the public purse, and therefore it should be amenable in the last analysis to public accountability and control. Its appointments procedures should conform to the academic criteria in operation elsewhere in the country and abroad. People deemed suitable for appointment on academic grounds should not have to face a further test based on such nonacademic criteria as religious beliefs, religious commitments, personal lifestyle or even sartorial habits. Yet, as we all know, a body not accountable to public control, to wit the Roman Hierarchy or their trustees, has refused to sanction the appointment of academics on nonacademic grounds. It is intolerable either in terms of academic justice or plain democracy that State funds should continue to be given to a recognised college in these circumstances. The Government should give immediate notice to the Catholic bishops that they must stop meddling in the affairs of a third-level institution funded from the public purse.

On the Estimate for Foreign Affairs I wish to express the concern of many people about reports of a recent vote of the Irish delegation at the United Nations. You, a Chathaoirleach, ruled this out of order as being unsuitable for the adjournment recently and I welcome this opportunity to discuss it as a matter of policy. According to The Irish Times, 29 November, the United Nations General Assembly's main political committee adopted a resolution declaring that the use of nuclear weapons would be a violation of the United Nations charter and a crime against humanity and it called for the prohibition of such weapons pending nuclear disarmament. Ireland and the eight other EEC members together with the United States and six other countries voted against the resolution which was carried by 84 votes to 16. The Department of Foreign Affairs has not denied the truth of the report that the Irish delegation voted against the resolution, nor has the Department offered any explanation.

The question arises: why is a country with a past like ours voting in a way which is tantamount to approving of nuclear war? My own reaction to the report was one of shocked incredulity. No matter what tactical reasons may be adduced for the attitude of our delegation, the scandalous fact remains that they voted against nuclear disarmament. This vote is not only in conflict with the Taoiseach's firm statements on the matter but with former Minister Frank Aiken's long and honourable struggle to promote nuclear disarmament. This vote represents a volte face on a cardinal principle of an historic foreign policy which was the guiding principle of Fianna Fáil political philosophy in relation to the outside world. Or is the vote really a volte face, in view of a similar irresponsible attitude on the part of our diplomats a year ago at Belgrade in opposing a disarmament resolution proposed by non-aligned states such as Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, and Yugoslavia? We must ask ourselves if we have here another phase in the insensible drift away from neutrality—the abandonment of our neutrality by stealth. By neutrality, I do not simply mean a negative stance like nonmembership of NATO, but the development of a constructive policy and of our relations with non-aligned states, in the interest of a contribution to world peace. Does the fact that we voted the same way as the other eight Community states mean that our foreign policy is now being dictated by the ex-colonial powers of Europe, that we are now a step nearer to the “one-voice” foreign policy of which Senator Brugha has expressed himself in favour, but which is totally against the interests of this country?

During the year the Minister for Foreign Affairs seemed to be saying rather contradictory things which would indicate that there is some confusion in Iveagh House about our position in international affairs. In an interview on the television programme "Féach", the Minister expressed himself as very much in favour of the de Valera—Aiken tradition of Irish neutrality. Yet in a subsequent modification he said that we would have to go to the aid of our European partners if any of them was attacked, whatever that may mean. One can only conclude that there is a certain ambivalence of attitude here in respect of our basic position in international affairs. Eternal vigilance is called for here by concerned members of the public.

There are other straws in the wind which would indicate that there is taking place an insensible shift in the whole direction of our foreign policy. In 1976 we abstained at the United Nations on a resolution calling for an arms embargo on South Africa—an action which has been attributed to EEC pressure, as Patrick Keating notes in his book "A Place Among the Nations: Issues in Irish Foreign Policy". He also says "since 1968, the single mindedness of achievement associated with Irish involvement in disarmament has become less apparent." He adduces various reasons for this but concludes that "Ireland's membership of the European Community from 1973 posed the question whether Irish policy on disarmament, as on other issues relating to the international milieu, was being dissipated in Community consultations and submerged by a common Community policy." In the light of these developments, Irish people generally should be aroused to a recognition of what may well be the betrayal of our honourable and anti-imperialist tradition.

Mindful of the disciplines of annual budgetary planning in the private sector, I have some sympathy for the comments made in the Dáil, that it is rather late to be debating the Appropriation Bill, 1978. We should be discussing the Estimates for 1979. In private enterprise we have to discuss potential income and expenditure before the new year begins and this usually includes an outline of corporate financial projections over a period of three years. I am glad therefore that the Minister for Finance has admitted there is room for improvement in these existing procedures. In other words, we spend a lot of time debating appropriations in retrospect, and this provides comment on a wide basis. In addition, during the year time is allocated to discussing the approval of borrowing powers of State organisations like the IDA, Aer Lingus and the ESB. I am anxious to get a total view of the potential capital expenditure of all State bodies and Government within the period of the next five years, for instance, because in my view this is an enormity.

There is the urgent necessity to consider the introduction of nuclear power, for instance. I have had some inkling of the cost of this as a member of the Electricity Supply Board, when I was on the board, and I dread to think what inflation has done to that estimated cost in the meantime. I feel, therefore, that the sooner we have an up-to-date assessment of such a major capital cost, so that it can be introduced into our future financial planning and development, the better. If in time we agree that it is a vitally necessary decision to go ahead with the nuclear plant, it may be at the expense of other capital expenditure on projects which some politicians may feel have priority.

My point is that we must realise that entry into the EMS will mean that the control of our external capital borrowing powers may be severely restricted and that some of the projects which we have in mind at the moment may have to take their place in a list of priorities. Where such projects cannot be funded either from internal resources of the public body in question or from Government borrowing from within the country, it is obvious that, with restricted ability to borrow externally, then the questions of nuclear stations, jumbo jets, CIE subsidies, rail and road networks and other infrastructural objectives must all be looked at in the context of a possible national borrowing programme. That is why I stress the necessity for Members of the Oireachtas being alerted in good time to the enormity of future borrowings for capital projects which face us so that the priorities may be debated in time and with more realistic appraisal.

I shall not speak for long on this debate because a number of other Members wish to get in. The many who sit throughout a debate like this should be congratulated on listening to so many views about so many matters. I want to speak on one subject which has been of concern to me for some time. Senator Robinson said yesterday that the Government since the election pursued an incredibly Tory-like political programme. I subscribe to that view and anybody who looks at it reasonably objectively—I am not saying that I look at it reasonably objectively all the time—will accept that. The election manifesto of Fianna Fáil was a remarkable document economically and socially. I do not think anybody will quibble with its undoubted achievement as an electoral success but we must always look at it to see whether it was successful economically and socially and judge its worth. This debate has enabled people to consider its worth and its success in economic and social terms. Senator Whitaker last night mentioned some of the economic problems we have today: a very serious and worsening industrial relations situation, people in all sectors looking for wage increases that we really cannot afford and, of course, still a very unacceptable and intolerable level of unemployment, particularly among young people.

The economic policies adopted by Fianna Fáil certainly created here an atmosphere of opulence that caused the higher expectations in small sectors of the community that the country just cannot afford. I use the words "an atmosphere of opulence" carefully because the reality is quite different. Fianna Fáil borrowed massively to provide for the increased personal income tax allowances, the abolition of car tax and rates, the abolition of wealth tax, the £1,000 new house grants and so on. While, of course, one cannot really object to such handouts as a member of the public, there is no justification for such reliefs and such concessions unless there is a significant increase in productivity and reduced numbers of unemployed. Those expectations have not been realised. Productivity has certainly not increased significantly. I accept the expectation that this year 17,000 new jobs will be created, but that is a total and utter irrelevancy unless the overall numbers of those unemployed is reduced by a corresponding amount. The fact is that it has not happened and the reason given by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development for the absence of a significant drop in the numbers of those unemployed—that it was due to redundancies—was the most naive excuse I have ever heard from any Minister in Government. One way or the other, the development has not taken place. There is every indication, indeed, that the great amount of the money made available to consumers and the public generally was spent on soft imported consumer goods creating massive problems of its own but also making a farce of the "Buy Irish" campaign before that campaign even got off the ground.

The £1,000 new house grant, something I thought was a very excellent idea at the time and regretted that the previous Government had not done something along those lines, has caused not the building boom that was anticipated but rather a builders' boom, giving builders excessive profits and obviously making some of them very rich men very quickly at the expense of the community and, indeed, at the expense of central funds. I do not see any other way to explain the fact of a 40 per cent increase in the cost of houses in the context of a 10 per cent or thereabouts increase in the cost of materials to build houses. I support the idea of a £1,000 house grant. It should even be greater at this stage, because obviously it was swallowed up a considerable time ago. But there is no point whatever in providing reliefs or grants of this nature if that grant or that benefit is going to go into the pockets of builders. Some measure should have been introduced to control the level of increase in the price of new houses and secondhand houses. No such efforts were made. Consequently the attempt made by the Government to generate greater building and a greater opportunity for ordinary people to own their own houses has in fact proved to be counter-productive.

The atmosphere created by the economic bubble is undoubtedly a major contributory factor in the industrial unrest that we are experiencing at the moment. Productivity has not increased significantly. The battle against unemployment has not succeeded sufficiently to generate the wealth that is needed to pay the price of the election promises and also to pay for the benefits that people have now come to expect. All that is left is a gigantic debt and a lot of unsatisfied citizens. I do not want to dwell on economic matters. I do not pretend to be an expert on these, but anybody, even somebody who is not an expert, can see just how unsuccessful the policies of the Government have been economically.

Socially, this Government have proved, if it is possible, to have been a more conservative Government. Fianna Fáil were never credited with a great deal of social conscience. Never in the history of this State have we seen a Government that lacks social concern as this Government lacks it. A 10 per cent increase to some social welfare recipients in a budget this year that abolished wealth tax and increased personal income tax allowances was just totally unacceptable. It was socially divisive and was horrific coming from a Government of what is meant to be a civilised community in the year 1978. The threat to abolish food subsidies and tax children's allowances is an indication, not only of the inadequate social concern of this Government but of the harsh economic reality of today. Far from the economic boom we were led to believe Fianna Fáil caused, the opposite has taken place. The pay-back does not come from the wealthier sections of the community but the suggestion was put to the Minister for Economic Planning and Development that the people who should pay for this are those who benefit from food subsidies and from children's allowances.

There are many services that one can provide for socially disadvantaged or socially deprived people that can be regarded more as desirable than absolutely necessary. There are services which we would all like to provide, but which, realistically, will only be provided when it is economically feasible to do so. There are other services, which, far from being desirable, are essential and must be provided if we claim to be a civilised community. For example, it has long been accepted that access to medical aid and hospitalisation when one is ill or in need of medical treatment, is an essential service. Similarly with access to education. With all the failings that we have in our educational system it has always been accepted that everybody in our community, socially disadvantaged or otherwise, is entitled to access to education. But incredibly, through some blind spot in our make-up, we have never regarded access to justice as a service that ought to be provided as a right to people.

That is the reason that I wish to speak on this subject. I tried to raise it in the House. I tried to have a motion taken that has been on the Order Paper for several months on this subject. Unfortunately it was not taken. But, I want to take this opportunity to make some points on it. It is almost like trying to flog a dead horse at this stage it has been spoken about so much. I propose to sew into the records of this House the unsatisfactory progress that the Government have been making in respect of this issue. It is something I intend to pursue relentlessly. No Irish Government have discharged their responsibilities in this respect. But this Government stand indicted. They stand indicted because they published in their election manifesto something for everybody, whether you were a businessman or whether you were a poor person, whether you were socially deprived or whether you believed in providing social services like legal aid. That document promised everything. But, to the socially deprived it has come up with nothing. It promised the introduction of a legal aid scheme. It promised, certainly by implication, that something was to happen immediately. Fianna Fáil expressed in their election manifesto their acceptance of the necessity for civil legal aid in the whole range of civil matters. They said in the interim they would provide a legal aid system for family law and family law related cases and suggested that this was something of urgency which they were going to attend to. They have not done one thing in this field.

Fianna Fáil since they have come in have had the opportunity to do something in this area. The Minister for Justice, Deputy Collins, in the debate here last February made the point that there are difficulties in introducing a civil legal aid scheme. I accepted that. But Deputy Collins, unlike any other Minister, had the benefit of the Pringle Report. The Pringle Report was given to the Minister for Justice one year ago yesterday. For the first time in nine years members of the free legal advice centres took to the streets yesterday in Dublin on the first anniversary of the publication of that report. Nothing has happened. I want to stitch into the records of this House the press statement that they made yesterday. I quote from it now:

Today, 14 December, 1978, is the first anniversary of the presentation of the Pringle Report on Civil Legal Aid and Advice to the Minister for Justice, Mr. Jerry Collins. The Committee clearly accepted the need for State funded legal aid and advice schemes. However, one year later, the Government has made no move to provide a legal service for those too poor to go to law. The responsibility for the lack of any kind of prompt action lies directly at the door of Mr. Collins. He has allowed to continue a situation whereby many people have to rely on over-worked and under-financed voluntary organisations or the charity of private solicitors for any kind of legal advice. Each of the organisations which have endorsed this statement have in their own fields seen the misery which his inaction has caused and can testify to the real suffering and worry of many of their clients or their members, when faced with a legal problem.

The Government's delay in dealing with the question of legal aid must be contrasted with their quickness to act in other areas such as the removal of wealth tax. The Minister for Justice seems content to equivocate until some decision is finally forced upon him by the European Court of Human Rights. In our view there has been more than adequate time to consider the introduction of a scheme and more delay is inexcusable. We call on the Minister to end the present farcical situation and to grasp the nettle of civil legal aid. We demand that he immediately makes public the Government's plans in this area and provides an adequate legal service for all the citizens of the country. Any further postponement of action can only be explained on the basis that the Government does not have the requisite will to ensure equal access to justice.

That document, while it was published by the free legal advice centres, was supported by the following organisations who put their names to it: Aim Group, Ally, Care, Cherish, Children First, Gingerbred, Irish Association of Democratic Lawyers, National Flatdwellers Association, Prisoners' Rights Organisation, Union of Students in Ireland, Unemployed Workers Association, Women's Aid, Free Legal Advice Centres, Dublin Trades Council, Council for the Status of Women, Irish Family Planning Association, Irish Council for Civil Liberties.

The unfortunate difficulty that the Free Legal Advice Centre has been faced with since it started in 1969 was that its two primary aims conflicted. Its first aim was to act as a pressure group to ensure that the Government would introduce a proper system of criminal legal aid and a comprehensive system of civil legal aid. Its second and conflicting principle was that it would provide a service until the Government became fully involved in this field. The organisation was established in 1969 with a small number of centres in Dublin. It has now grown to be a massive organisation. It has got 12 centres in the city of Dublin with one full-time community law centre in Coolock and it has got three centres outside Dublin. In nine years, it has dealt with 30,000 cases approximately to date. It has 130 people, students, young solicitors working part-time in the organisation and it has got four people working full-time. The difficulty that FLAC has been faced with is that it has become an institution. It feels a little bit now like it is a portion of the public service and that it is going to continue in that way. They feel that they have compromised themselves on their first principle, to act as a pressure group to get the Government to establish a system of legal aid. For that reason FLAC has now made the decision that, unless the Government introduce a comprehensive system of civil legal aid, it will close down the service it has been providing as and from April next. If FLAC are forced into the position where they close down that service, the blame will have to be laid at the door of the Minister for Justice and his Government. There will be thousands of people throughout this city and throughout the length and breadth of Ireland denied the service which they are now getting through the charitable good offices of law students.

We met a delegation from the Free Legal Advice Centres when they came into Leinster House yesterday afternoon. It was put to them that they would cause serious hardship to people if they pulled out of the service they are presently providing. They expressed the view that they are now satisfied that they are being used by the Government as a prop or as a means to avoid the Government's own responsibilities in this area. I would be very reluctant to say to them that they must drop their service. I have given it thought and I am satisfied that they have no option whatever.

I appreciate that the Minister, for one reason or another, may have difficulties in convincing the Government that this is a sufficient area of priority to warrant expenditure of the nature that will be required. What I would like to put to him now is some form of compromise that might ensure that those centres will not close down. I believe that the Council of the Free Legal Advice Centres would recommend to their members to keep the centres open provided two things occurred. First, that the Minister gave an unequivocal commitment to introduce a comprehensive system of civil legal aid by a certain date in the not too distant future, say 12 months' time. That would enable the Minister to get over any difficulties he has, administratively or otherwise, in the introduction of such a system. The second thing the Minister would have to do is properly to fund the existing structures of the free legal advice centres. I do not want to burden the House with details of the costs involved in that.

Unfortunately, the free legal advice centres, for one reason or another, have not had the benefit of the views of the Department on this although they submitted their estimates as long ago as last July or August. They have heard nothing from the Department of Justice since. I have worked out, with the members of the council, that they would require a minimum increase on their present allocation of £20,000 of something in the order of £35,000 to £40,000 to provide this service. The difficulty at the moment is that the organisation have become too big and they are about to fall apart at the seams unless they can employ more people to keep the show ticking over. They have one administrative officer. An organisation dealing with several thousand cases each year cannot manage the administration of that, let alone provide the legal service, unless they have more administrative help. That requires equipping FLAC, for the moment, with a couple of secretaries and allowing a greater amount of finance for the employment of an administrative officer.

The solicitor in the Coolock community law centre is presently paid £4,200. That girl is five years qualified. She is overworked. The centre is so plagued by people calling that it now takes one month for a client actually to make an appointment to see the solicitor there. If she went to any area of private practice she would command a far higher salary than £4,200. She is entitled to be paid by the State. Similarly, the secretaries involved in the Coolock community law centre are entitled to be paid and paid properly. If the Government are going to use the Free Legal Advice Centres until they bring in their system, they should at least acknowledge that and come up with the money and stop complaining about it. The Free Legal Advice centres outside the Coolock area need secretarial help. I can only urge the Government to be realistic about this and provide sufficient finance which would be in the order of £35,000 to £40,000 on an interim basis. If they fail to do that, they may take it as certain that the Free Legal Advice Centres will close down next April. I do not believe that the Government lack a social conscience to the extent that they want to see them closed down. It would take very little to keep them open. It is an essential service. This country has already been criticised in the European Court of Human Rights. We have ignored our obligations in the matter. All I can do is add my voice to the voices that have already been raised in this respect. It is something I will be following. I know the Leader of the House proposes to give time for a discussion on the Pringle Report in the New Year and the matter will be followed with interest then. I hope, in the meantime, we will hear some significant noises from the Department of Justice.

Is ag an am seo den bhliain a fhaigheann Seanadóirí mar a déarfá saor chead cainte a fháil chur síos ar chaiteachas an Rialtais agus ar, dar le cuid acu, mí-threoir agus mí-thuiscint an Rialtais, agus is maith an rud é go bhfaigheann daoine seans labhairt ar na cúrsaí sin agus pé gearáin a bhíonn le deanamh acu a dhéanamh go hoscailte agus go nea-bhalbh, agus go háirithe is fior é sin nuair a fhéachaimid ar an suim mhór airgid atá luaite anseo, £2,231,172,565. Slán beo leis an sean aimsear nuair a bhí ar chumas an Rialtais an Stát a riaradh thart ar £30 milliún ach tá na laethanta sin imithe anois agus gan dabht ní thiocfaidh siad arais go deo.

I should like to comment on the way the debate has been conducted so far. At various times during the debate the words came running into my mind "Oh manifesto what nonsense is spoken in thy name". I brought along a copy of the said manifesto and if anybody wishes to see it before we adjourn this evening he is welcome to do so. Various speakers criticised things they thought were in the manifesto but which are not there at all. This manifesto was simply a statement of intent by the Fianna Fáil Party when they engaged in the electoral campaign. It was an honest remedy for the ills of the country at the time. If all the things mentioned there have not been brought about yet, you can rest assured they will. Rome was not built in a day. Certainly Rome could not be built in a day or in a year or in many years by any group of builders, even by the Romans themselves, if they had to contend with the mess that this country found itself in after four years of economic mismanagement.

I was particularly taken aback by a remark by one of the younger contributors, an honest and decent man. It was probably for lack of knowledge of the history of the State and what had been done by previous Governments particularly by the Fianna Fáil Government to relieve the lot of the less well off that this young man referred to a lack of social conscience in the Fianna Fáil Government. A thing like that hurts because certainly we have a social conscience and, please God, always will have one. The Fianna Fáil Government were the first Government who really faced up to this problem. The facts are there to prove it for anybody who wishes to consult them. That is just one point. I will not go into the other points except to say that, generally, cynicism does nobody any good. It does not do the cynic any good and it does not do those to whom the cynicism is directed any good either. Cynicism is no cure for anything. We had a fair amount of cynicism in the debate so far. I admit we had some very constructive suggestions and these are to be welcomed. Cynicism, whether directed at a lack of social conscience in the party or at leadership, does not carry any weight. It does not do any good either to those who express these views or those to whom these views are directed.

I wish to speak on the expenditure in the Department of Justice. It is a very big sum indeed. Under one heading £3,099,000 and under another, no. 24, over £70 million. No Department has such a task before it at the moment as the Department of Justice. Crime has increased, lack of responsibility has increased and the Garda are stretched to the limit to cope with the increasing crime rate. There is one type of crime apart from the daylight bank robberies that are giving people concern, and it is the question of the proliferation of such crimes as rape. People are in great fear and dread of letting young children out of their sight or out of their protection for even short periods. It was never known in this country to the extent that it is known now. There were always such crimes but now they have increased to such a degree that special measures must be taken to deal with them.

Much of the blame can be laid with the type of so-called entertainment that we get in many cinemas, journals and novels. The other day, a letter written to The Cork Examiner and published by that paper on 12 December reads as follows:

"Sir, I just wonder how many people noticed the array of films advertised in the entertainment page of the Cork Examiner on Friday November 24. May I refresh your memory:

The writer gives here a list of these films—

1. "The Seductress", 2. "The Rape", 3. "Sizzlers", 4. "The Betsy" with blurb—The Harold Robbins women—what you dream...they do!: 5. "The Stud",

and so on. He gives various lists. I am not going to go through them all because they are rather disgusting. Then the writer says:

Is this the entertainment we now deserve in Cork? Is this the entertainment we actually support in Cork?

I have no doubt that what is happening in Cork at the moment is also happening in Dublin. As a matter of fact, I believe that in at least one cinema in Dublin uncensored films have been shown.

This is something that must be faced up to in a big way. Young people see these disgusting films and, being of the age they are, they say to themselves "This is the thing to do; therefore we will do it." If proof is wanted of the connection between them, a large percentage of these proven cases of rape were committed by people who arrived here from a country where there is not liberty, as far as these things are concerned, but total licence. We had a very serious case in Cork recently. A young girl of 16 or 17 who not alone was indecently assaulted but was, but for the grace of God, almost drowned by her assailant. That is a matter that has to be faced up to in a very big way by the Department of Justice. Something will have to be done to tighten up our censorship laws. There are people whose sole object seems to be to pollute the minds of young people either through films, books, or magazines. Something will have to be done about it because this pollution leads to many mental and social diseases. These people who are subject to these things and who think they are at liberty to follow the standards laid down by these films become very unsteady and various other things come as a result. That is not the tradition we have been used to. That is not the tradition anybody in this House was brought up in. Something will have to be done to preserve the way of life and the standards that we have been always used to in this State.

Before I leave the Department of Justice, I suppose I would be reading everybody's mind when I say that, as public representatives, we should do everything possible to exhort the public in general to help the Garda force in the execution of their duty. Down through the years I have noticed that, where the public and the Garda have a good relationship between them, crime is practically non-existent. It is the duty of every member of this State to see that the rules of law and order are upheld. Any information to be had as regards crimes, criminals or potential criminals should be given to the Garda at the earliest possible opportunity. While people blame the Garda for this and that crime, a felony here and a theft there, an assault on an old man or woman and so on, people often ask why were the gardaí not there? What were the gardaí doing? How is it that they are here and there but when they are wanted they are never there? Gardaí cannot be everywhere. They cannot be guarding every house in the State at the one time. It is up to everybody to help them. That is the only way criminals can be finally brought to justice.

Is mian liom dul ar aghaidh anois go dtí cúrsaí oideachais. Nuair a cuireadh an Stát seo ar bun ceann des na haidhmeanna a bhí laistiar den oideachas ná an Ghaeilge agus cultúr na Gaeilge d'athbheochaint agus a láidriú. Chuige sin deineadh gach iarracht féachaint chuige go mbeadh múinteoirí lán-oilte ag obair sna scoileanna agus ní hamháin go mbeidis lán-oilte in obair na múinteoireachta ach go mbeadh an Ghaeilge ar fheabhas acu. Dár ndóigh ag an am sin bhí an-chuid daoine ar bheagán Gaeilge ach cuireadh na coláistí ullmhúcháin ar bun chun bheith deimhin de go mbeadh cainteoirí dúchais le fáil sna scoileanna ar fud na tíre.

Faraoir géar le himeacht aimsire ceapadh nach raibh gá a thuilleadh leis na coláistí sin agus dúnadh iad ach, foraoir géar, anois tá an-chuid daoine ag dul isteach sna coláistí oiliúna agus ag teacht amach astu agus gan Ghaeilge acu ach go lag nó go briste. Ar an ábhar sin, sílim gur ceart don Roinn Oideachais pé rud is gá a dhéanamh, agus a dhéanamh chomh luath in Éirinn agus is féidir chun bheith deimhin de go mbeidh caighdeán na Gaeilge ar fheabhas sna scoileanna, idir bunscoileanna, meánscoileanna agus scoileanna den tríú leibhbhéal.

Another thing that could be provided in schools is a set of text books dealing with our great heritage which would try to inspire people to follow the standards of honesty, integrity and decency that are traditional among our people. Years ago when I first went to a national school, we had some splendid readers, mostly in English at the time. One series was entitled "Nation Building". It was a splendid series. At that time the Shannon scheme was getting under way. We got very well-written lessons and diagrams of the construction of that scheme and we were told what it meant and what it scould do for the country. That is one thing I can never forget. We should have such textbooks again. People may say we have other ideas now, but we cannot get away from the fundamentals.

As far as education is concerned, let us retain the basics, the basic skills of tables, spellings and, as far as music is concerned, scales. We cannot get away from the basics. Nowadays there is a tendency to say that computers and calculators will do all of this, but they will not. We are missing a lot in neglecting the basics. What is the point in a person doing this, that and the other if he cannot spell when he is writing a simple letter?

Many other Senators want to take part in this debate so I will curtail my speech and refer very briefly to two other areas. One is the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. When we were voting £350 million to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, I put forward the proposition that the time had come for a separation between posts and telegraphs. There seems to be no connection in disciplines between selling stamps and postal orders over a counter, and designing, planning and maintaining the type of sophisticated, electronic equipment we must have in an up-to-date telephone service. The sooner we face up to that fact and separate those two and give the telephone and telegraph section to a semi-State body the better.

I want to say a word about television programmes and RTE 2 which was mentioned by Senator Murphy. Along with the overwhelming majority of the people of this State, I was very disappointed on the night of the opening of RTE 2. With regard to that programme and those who took part in it, many people are still asking me: "Where did they get them?" Compare the programme we had that night with the programme in "Trom agus Eadrom", about a week ago from Cork. There is no comparison between the two. There is a great potential for RTE 2. We fought very hard for it against a determined opposition who wanted BBC. We were determined that this would be in our own State and run by our own State. Whether the fault lies with the television authority, or with various executives in the television administration, I do not know. People are not getting what they want. We want more of our own programmes. We want more programmes in the Irish language. We have not nearly enough of them. The percentage is very low. We want more programmes with an Irish oriented slant, even in the English language. We have a tremendous potential both in entertainment and in education.

Le focal gairid i dtaobh na Gaeltachta, feicim anseo an Ghaeltacht le haghaidh tuarastal agus costais Roinn na Gaeltachta maidir le deontas le haghaidh tithe agus ildeontais-i-gcabhair, £7 milliúin go leith. Is amhlaidh gurb é sin an figiúr is isle dá bhfuil ann. Gan aon dabht, caithfear é sin go cruinn agus go héifeachtach agus go tairbhiúil mar is Roinn anthábhachtach í sin—tobar an chultúir comh fada is a bhaineann leis an dteanga, agus maidir le muintir na Gaeltachta agus lucht na Gaeilge, tá an cheangail ann idir iad san agus na seana Cheiltigh i lár na hEorpa gur shíolraíomar uathu.

The welfare of our land should be the concern not of one party but of all parties. Honesty, hard work, high moral courage, loyalty to our traditions and faith in God were the recipe for our survival until now. We must depend on these qualities if we want to survive for the future.

We may or we may not join the EMS. We should know the answer to that very soon. It seems very reasonable to think that we will join and, if we do, we should recognise what that decision involves for us. It will be a threat, a challenge and an opportunity; a threat which we can avert, a challenge to which we can respond, and an opportunity we can take.

Senator Whitaker was profoundly right last evening when he said too much importance is being attached to what we would receive as part of the bargain for entry. It is not what we receive now from others, or what we will receive in the future from others, that will avert any threat to ourselves, or be a proper response to any challenge to ourselves, or make for the taking of the opportunity which this can provide.

Senator Murphy is also profoundly right in his quotation from John Mitchel this morning. It is what we ourselves, sinn féin, do for ourselves, not what Europe does for us that will count.

Our resources are scarce. They are particularly scarce compared to the resources available to the leaders of the Community of which we are a member. Unless we administer them wisely and justly, we will not avert the threat; we will not respond to the challenge; we will not take our opportunity. One important fact about the scarcity of our resources has been overlooked and needs far more emphasis in public debate than it has ever received since we joined the Community. The resources available to our colleagues in the Community being greater than our resources, have generated expectations in this society beyond what even the wisest and most just administration of our own resources can satisfy.

The point which has not been made or, if made, made not at all adequately, is that these expectations to which I refer are not merely the crude and greedy expectations of individuals for more for themselves. The very justice and wisdom of the administration of our own resources is threatened by what I call high-minded expectations, by expectations that because our colleagues in Europe, out of the resources available to them, can afford expenditures to meet entirely good purposes, in an entirely liberal and generous way, we can wisely and justly do the same. We cannot and in so far as we have attempted to do so, we have prevented the growth of our resources, and if we attempt to do so we will prevent the growth of our resources. We have and we will continue to have a degree of scarcity which we should seek to remove. If it is to ourselves alone that the challenge comes, it is from ourselves alone that the response must come. No society can accept such a challenge and respond properly to it without leadership, without decision, without Government.

During the last election a campaign was fought and no one really knows all the reasons why the people elected this Government. I in common with every other member of this party entirely accept that decision. I am not concerned to analyse all these reasons. It is a great misfortune that the party now in Government raised expectations unnecessarily, for the purpose of getting elected. There is no point at all in fighting the election over again. A situation exists now and it is to that situation that the people should now be directing their attention. The expectations generated then were too great for our resources. These expectations must be reduced and can only be reduced by the Government, not by a lot of talk, not by talk about policy, but by political decisions. Papers were published in the past year, and that process is a good process. We had the White Paper, the Green Paper, the White Paper. People may laugh at that process, I am not laughing at it. That process is a good one if, but only if, as a result of the whole operation decisions are made.

The Green Paper in particular contained many options, a lot of very interesting stuff, a lot of very interesting policies, not entirely adequate, obviously not without deficiencies, but enough to make policies if the decisions about them are made. I plead with the Government to make decisions in the country's interest, without regard to pressure groups, without regard to lobby pressure, no matter how unpopular they may be, no matter how the Opposition parties may have tried in particular instances to oppose the policy chosen.

The people are entitled to the best they can be given, and the qualities of moral courage to which Senator Cranitch referred are among those best qualities needed in their service. If given them, the people will respond. Of that I am sure. The Government must realise that, if Senator Whitaker is right, as I believe him to be right, the first problem on the social and political level is the problem of industrial relations. These relations will not be improved unless there is a return to the pursuit of justice in the taxation system, to a like treatment of like, to such adjustments in Schedule D tax payments whether by farmers, professional men, businessmen, or whoever else is subject to them, as will remove obvious unfairness between that system and the pay-as-you-earn system which is applicable to so many. Industrial relations will not be improved if the Government are seen, and seen I think correctly, to yield to pressure from the moneyed for taxation reliefs.

Yesterday in response to a question on Committee Stage of the Capital Gains Tax (Amendment) Bill I elicited information from the Minister of State as to the cost of the reliefs being given, every £ of which will go to the moneyed. The cost of the reliefs given, if I calculated his answer correctly, would be 80 per cent of the tax capable of being received under the existing Act, itself containing reliefs. It is, therefore, no adequate measure of what is procurable out of capital gains taxation. If this is the way in which the "haves", if you like, are treated, how do you expect the "have-nots" to co-operate? Yes, without their co-operation, everyone is damaged, most of all the "have-nots".

The first objective of a just financial system, or a just social system, must be to see that the most needy in our community are adequately looked after, that their position is improved. The intolerable nature of remediable poverty in our midst should be eliminated. This requires social peace. It requires realism, to use Senator Whitaker's good word. Unless there is realism in incomes policy, the second most important financial objective cannot be achieved. The public Exchequer position cannot be corrected and, without its correction, the position of the most needy cannot be remedied.

I do not mind whether the terms negotiated with the EEC, or whether the loans or grants amount to particular figures. I am only concerned in that area with the possibility that they should have any effect on the Government's determination to reduce our national borrowing. The begging bowl has been very evident in public attitudes here ever since we went into the EEC. It is no inspiration for any people to get the best from themselves. We must put our public finances in a condition in which we as a people have a right to be proud of them. If the taxes are to be imposed, let them be imposed. Let us not have the whole operation like a dentist who, having failed to give you an anaesthetic, or has given you an anaesthetic which has worn off, proceeds to operate on your tooth, and keeps on asking you is he hurting you when what he ought to be doing is taking the tooth out. Over the past 18 months too much time has been spent in talking about action. There has been too much of the behaviour of a eunuch, too little of the attitude of a vigorous Government, a vigorous parent who should create and give hostages to fortune and let himself be judged on his positive work at the end of the day.

As a member of this party I am entitled to talk like this. We fought the last election by saying people could not afford the reliefs in taxation then proposed. We said they could not afford to abolish rates fully on dwelling houses. We said they could not afford to abolish car taxation. We said they could not afford the £1,000 extra grant for a new house. We said the whole package was too expensive for the people and we paid a price for saying that. That was a decision by the Government not to do these things, a decision I am proud to stand over 18 months after that election, when it is now clear that these reliefs in their total cost could not be afforded.

I am not now concerned with arguments about particular taxes or reliefs. I am merely putting forward the proposition that no tax relief can be given without some alternative tax to replace it, or some service being cut, unless growth yields a higher revenue from existing taxation, which, of course, was not the position and has not been the position as will be demonstrated, and I hope demonstrated quickly for the sake of the people. I hope it will not be postponed. I hope the easy way out will not be taken because that easy way will not lead to improvement in our condition. It will mean that the opportunity of EMS is not being taken, that the challenge of EMS is not being responded to, that the dangers inherent in EMS will be too great for us.

I should like to end by saying one more word about Wood Quay. It seems that, if what is in the opinion of many incorrupt, informed and accomplished scholars a great treasure is destroyed by those whose duty it is to preserve it, much more will go than the destruction of that treasure. Looking back on almost 60 years of self-government, one of the great tragedies occurred during the first Government of the State when Lady Gregory's home was demolished by a public authority, the Land Commission. The good opinion of public authority has suffered from that decision ever since. I know the Minister has problems with regard to Wood Quay. I hope I indicated an awareness of these problems. It is a question of choice. It is a question of who is going to be disappointed. If those who form the better opinion are right—that this is a treasure—then the right to prove them wrong must be preserved because it will never be known that they were wrong if the monument is destroyed. If they are right, if we destroy in the heart of Dublin what has been described as the most important find in relation to this area of knowledge ever made in relation to the history of western Europe, what a shame for us. How can that public authority continue to inspire the people and to tell them there are higher things worth working for? How can they tell people that if the corporation are allowed choose their own purpose, that individuals everywhere must subordinate their own purposes to the social ones?

The public good requires that the Government's decision be to preserve Wood Quay and I take my last opportunity to ask the Minister to do this. I do not believe that the Government will lose any authority by doing this. On the contrary, they will lose great authority if they do not do it. It is no wish of mine that on such an issue and for such a purpose the Government should lose authority. It is no part of the role of an Opposition to subtract from the authority of the Government. In a sense we are part of the Government. I ask him to believe my conviction that there is involved in this much more merely than satisfying the interests of medievalists. There is involved here very considerably the degree of our commitment to a proper set of values in the management and the government of our society.

I always welcome Senator FitzGerald's contributions. One does not have to agree with every word he says but one tends to believe that what he says is said with passion and conviction.

A couple of items have arisen which need comment. Senator Murphy accused us again of failing to make an effort to resolve the Northern Ireland situation. There are problems in that area which have defeated the best efforts of many of us. It is difficult to distinguish between rational proposals and the appeasement of people to whom appeasement is merely a negative exercise. It is most disappointing that, despite many years of effort to bring some degree of reconciliation into the situation there, the northern community is still divided and politically unstable. Most Senators will appreciate, as I have learned by experience, that the balance of power in the North still remains with those who are prepared to consider nothing except a bigoted and pseudo-British domination of the minority in a situation which can be described as democratic but only in an artificially contrived way.

We have stated on numerous occasions over the past ten years that we are prepared to entertain any rational structures which have a hope of working with the support of the different sections of the Northern community. In this context some federal arrangement might possibly be worth entertaining. The depressing fact remains that those who dominate the political mind in the North do not want to hear anything reasonable or sensible coming from us and are invariably waiting to knock down any suggestions that we might make. One would hope to see a softening of that atmosphere of negativism in the future and I have been told recently that it is beginning to soften.

Comment was made also by Senator Murphy on the views expressed in connection with our joint involvement in the European Community, that is, the involvement of Northern Ireland and ourselves. I would not care to engage in any further conclusions than to say that the European elections will result in the election of people for the northern part of Ireland and for the remainder of the country and this must inevitably lead to a situation in the European Parliament where the common economic interest of all on this island must be shared by those who are elected by people living on the island.

I welcome the remarks of Senators Cranitch and FitzGerald on the need for decisions in many areas of our life, including areas outside politics. I believe we are entering a new era. Owing to our membership of the European Community, our international trade terms are reaching a much more balanced level. More than half of our trade now lies outside the United Kingdom and it is still expanding, whereas six years ago three-quarters of our trade was with the United Kingdom. Our trade policy must continue to be directed towards expansion and employment. If we can reach the right conditions in regard to the question of the day—the EMS—having regard to our geographical situation I believe that membership of the European Monetary System would be in our best long-term interest.

However, on our overall situation, I believe that we must be prepared to abandon many obsolete working methods, restrictive conditions, activities known as leap-frogging, which are damaging our economic prospects. To continue as we do in many areas of life, in the professions as well as in the vocations, will end in impoverishment for all and a lower standard of life. Like a number of European nations whom we profess to admire, we must decide that work for the sake of doing a good job and for giving a good return is the only course open to us. It has been said in other ways, and I would repeat, that neither Europe nor any other part of the world owes us a living. We have to do it ourselves. If we continue to be selfish, mean and greedy, in the long-run we can only blame ourselves because it is we who will have the responsibility.

On national issues we do need to avoid engaging in party political side-taking. There has been an election and a Government have been elected. This does not mean that Senator FitzGerald and others should not criticise; indeed, that is the value of democracy. But at present the interest of the community as a whole should be placed above selfish, sectional interest and above political interest. That is the way forward and I hope we will have the capacity to take it. The opportunities are there for us if all sections of our community are prepared to co-operate in 1979.

We had a broad debate and it would be difficult for me to cover all the points made. I hope Senators will be satisfied with the assurance that their references will be brought to the notice of the Minister.

It is the end of a successful year and any Government would expect some criticism, but I must say that the criticism was constructive. No one is ever worried about criticism provided it is constructive and taken in that spirit.

Senator Robinson and others referred to the Pringle Report. Senator Robinson stated that the Government were failing in their responsibility by not defining their position on civil legal aid and that I should explain why a full year has passed without the position being defined. I must remind Senator Robinson that the report was a detailed one and that the examination of its implications has not been completed.

Senator Robinson also raised the question of the Minister for Justice producing his own Bill on adoption and refusing to accept the Labour Party's Bill. The Government are entitled to refuse an Opposition Bill at any time and prepare their own Bill. The position is that the Minister introduced a Sixth Amendment of the Constitution Bill the other day. The text of the Bill will be made known to Members in due course.

Senator Robinson mentioned the equal pay claims by day telephonists. It is very easy to criticise Governments and Ministers without knowing all the facts. The day telephonists submitted their claim in 1975 to the Equal Pay Commissioner and he rejected it. When they appealed to the Labour Court the Labour Court rejected it. Subsequently, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs offered the day telephonists equal pay on certain conditions, but this was rejected. The claim was then submitted to the Equal Pay Officer under the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act, 1974. The claim is still being examined by the equal pay officer. I should like to remind the Senator that the equal pay officer holds a statutory position under the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act, 1974. It would not be appropriate for the Government to attempt to intervene in a matter like this. Everyone appreciates that it is his responsibility and that there should not be any interference in his work.

Senator Robinson raised the question of the second increase in social welfare benefits this year and the disparity between people on low incomes and social welfare recipients. She also mentioned the possibility of indexing social welfare benefits. The introduction of increases in social welfare payments in October in recent years was necessary to ensure that payments maintained their value in relation to the high rate of inflation. Consequently, there was an increase of 5 per cent in October 1977, to take into account the cost of living since the previous increase in April 1977. There has, however, been a considerable drop in the inflation rate. This year it will be down to a single figure. Also, 8 per cent from October 1977 to October 1978, adequately compensates for the increase in the cost of living from October, 1977, so that a bigger increase in social welfare payments in October 1978 was not necessary. Lower claims in recent years mean that an autumn increase in rates of payment is not anticipated. Since it is the policy of the Government that social welfare benefits should at least keep in step with the rise in the cost of living, the question of indexing benefits does not arise.

It is only right and proper that industrial relations should be highlighted. It is difficult for anyone to say what the answer is. As one who had dealings with a trade union, I believe that the trade unions, the workers and the employers, should work as a team. Some speakers said that we did not have a successful year. The Government believe that we had a very successful year and that there are tremendous opportunities ahead. I agree with Senator FitzGerald that the opportunity is there. Let us avail of all the opportunities that may arise in the coming year.

Senator Robinson's allegation that the policies of the Minister for Labour have worsened industrial relations is not correct. In his speech to the Dáil on 5 December in response to a similar allegation the Minister adequately defended his own actions and Government policy. He demonstrated that the industrial relations climate has improved rather than worsened. He pointed out that the number of man-days lost through strikes has fallen from 800,000 in 1976, when the Coalition were in office, to 469,000 for the first ten months of this year. Further figures relating to the number of strikes, both official and unofficial, reinforce his denial that industrial relations have worsened since the previous Government were in power.

Senator Robinson's reference to delays in dealing with simple requests is not clear. I did not grasp what she was trying to convey. The intervention of a Minister in a strike would be wrong. Machinery has been set up to negotiate strikes. If there is anything wrong with that machinery then we should know of it. Senator Robinson did not point to any particular aspect of that machinery. The machinery is there in the interest of the worker, the employer, and the community. Senators will agree with me that it should be used to the fullest extent. If there are defects in it the trade unions should bring them to the Government's notice so that legislation can be enacted to perfect it.

Senator Whitaker referred to the conservation of salmon stocks. The Minister for Fisheries is aware of the position of salmon stocks and the urgency of measures to control fishing. During 1978, action against illegal fishing was significantly intensified. Everybody agrees with that, even the people who represent the fishing industry. The Senator is aware that further measures were announced this week to control the level of salmon fishing for the 1979 season, which will be a short one. The early closing date next year should make an important contribution to reducing fishing. For 1979 there will be restrictions on the size of boat which will exclude larger fishing vessels from commercial salmon fishing. The new Fishery Bill, which the Minister hopes to circulate shortly, will make provisions for substantially increased penalties for fishing offences. These measures should make a contribution to the important objective of conserving salmon stocks.

Senator Whitaker's concern with restoring stability to public finances is shared by the Government. The Government's plans to achieve this have already been clearly set out in the 1978 budget and other documents. The increase in the Exchequer borrowing requirement in 1978 was clearly seen as a temporary measure and it will be reduced in 1979 and 1980 through the phasing-out of the current budget deficit. Naturally, it would not be appropriate at this stage to indicate exactly the budget that will be introduced in the New Year. I can assure the Senator that the Government are committed to reducing the current deficit. As Senator Whitaker rightly points out, public expenditure as a proportion of GNP has been increasing in recent years. This reflects the increase in the range and volume of services provided by the Government, particularly in the social area, a trend which is found in most other countries. The review of expenditure which was announced in the last budget is still continuing and the results will be reflected in the coming budget.

Senator Staunton referred to the balance of payments. It was inevitable that an expanded Government policy would give rise to a growth in imports. This was anticipated by the Government in framing their overall strategy. As well as increasing the level of imports of consumer goods it has also increased imports which are essential if we are to increase investment, production and exports.

I would also like to point out in this context that our overall balance of payments for 1978 is indeed very satisfactory. The 1978 budget anticipated a balance of payments deficit of £400 million as part of the Government's strategy but the present outlook is for a deficit of not more than £150 million. Our trade deficit will be in line with our expectations but invisible receipts have happily shown a very buoyant trend and will accordingly reduce the deficit out-turn to this acceptable level.

I was somewhat surprised to hear Senator Staunton castigating the Government for their high level of borrowing. When his own party were in government there was a massive and unprecedented increase in Government borrowing. When we were in Opposition it was never our policy to object to borrowing, provided that the money borrowed was injected into the economy. Any businessman injecting money into his business expects a return. This was the philosophy of this Government and it was our philosophy when in Opposition and we are now implementing that philosophy.

Now the 13 per cent requirements this year foresaw the level reached by the previous Government. We recognise that it is still high but it was needed in order to stimulate the economy and help it to recover from the depths it had reached under the Coalition. We are fully committed to reducing it in the coming year.

Senator Staunton is rather misleading in talking of having to reduce expenditure by £400 million, or increase taxation by this amount to achieve the Government's target. The economy will of course be growing rapidly in coming years. All that will be required to meet the Government's target will be a moderation in the growth of public expenditure and, perhaps, some modest increases in taxation. It is envisaged that the overall burden of taxation in the economy will form a smaller proportion of national income in the coming years than it did in the last years of the previous Government.

Senator Staunton commented on the Gaeltacht and non-Gaeltacht policy. He claimed that in an overall poor region some areas were receiving much more favourable treatment than others. The Senator should know that the whole idea of setting up the Gaeltacht, or to discriminate in its favour, was because of the emphasis in Government policy, giving special aid to Irish people speaking the Irish language, is the determining feature. As far as his reference to the Western Development Board is concerned I might ask why did the Coalition Government not go ahead and set up the board? This was really true. They talked about this board but were never prepared to set it up.

Senator Connaughton accused the Government of having a bad record on housing. It is only natural for a politician to try to confuse the issue on certain aspects of Government policy. This is an incredible allegation, in a year when housing output will reach a level of about 26,500, as compared with an annual average of 25,000 in the past five years. There is no question of a dramatic decline in local authority housing. It will reach much the same level as in 1977 and other housing will be above the 1977 figure. I would point out that when the Government took office in 1977, housing output was running at a rate which would have resulted in only 22,000 houses being built in that year. Due to the positive action taken by the new Government the actual output was raised to 24,500 as I have already mentioned. A further increase is taking place this year. That does not suggest a bad record in housing. If one has any interest in the working of local authorities that fact will be verified by them.

Senator Murphy said that the ESB were being allowed by default, to determine nuclear power, that a nuclear energy authority was needed, and that the Government should hold a public inquiry into the question of a nuclear power station. He must be aware that it is the Government who determine energy policy and the ESB are responsible to the Government, through the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy. There is a Nuclear Energy Board which was established under the Nuclear Energy Act, 1971, and which has the function of advising the Government and the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy regarding nuclear matters. The Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy speaking on the Dáil debate on the Electricity Supply (Amendment) Bill, 1978, on 23 November stated that he did not see what useful purpose would be served by holding a public inquiry on the question of a nuclear power station. He pointed out that planning permission would be necessary and that the local authority would carry out a full and comprehensive investigation. Anyone who objected to the local authority decision could apply to a planning board which is independent of the Government.

I think Senator Murphy referred to the recoupment and potential difficulties with regard to professional engineers in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I agree and I have this problem in my own Department. I would attribute this to the tremendous boost in the building and construction trade at the moment. Many engineers are going into the private sector. It is a good trend but, nevertheless, I can see that this question must be tackled. It is indeed true that the retention of sufficient qualified engineers is posing a problem for the Department. This matter is, however, under active consideration by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the Department of the Public Service and I am hopeful that a solution to this problem will shortly be forthcoming. In regard to the underspending by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs of their capital provision in the current year to which the Senator also referred, this is due to the fact that there was an industrial dispute in that Department during the year. Senator Connaughton mentioned agriculture and I go along with much of what he said. The EEC review of the farm modernisation scheme is at present under way and the Minister for Agriculture is pressing for levels of aid which will encourage the maximum number of farmers to develop. The revision he is seeking would be of particular importance in the west where development needs are greatest. The farm retirement scheme has not been a great success in Ireland or in other member states. The EEC Commission have already submitted proposals to the Council of Ministers for amendment of this scheme and their proposals are being considered at present. The recently announced special drainage scheme for the west will make a major contribution to the productive capacity of western farmers. As part of this programme grants will be made available to cooperatives for the purchase of land drainage machinery. The programme has only just been introduced but its implementation will be kept under continuous review and if revised arrangements seem necessary—for example, an extension of the scheme of grants for the purchase of machinery—we will of course put the case to Brussels for suitable changes.

Senator Connaughton also raised a question about the Land Commission. The Minister is at present drawing up proposals for further policies and land structures in the light of the recommendations of the interdepartmental committee on land structure reform. We hope to have legislation in this regard before the Dáil at an early date. I would like to reassure Senator Connaughton on the question of land with good agricultural potential being used for forestry purposes. There are arrangements in operation between the Forestry and Wild Life Service and the Land Commission which are designed to avoid this. We would like to see a better response to the scheme of grants for private afforestation development. It is very important that everything possible will be done in coming years to improve this particular field.

Senator Hussey raised a number of issues concerning Senators' salaries and also the availability of secretarial and other services in this House. It should be pointed out that Senators, like Deputies, have received all relevant increases under the various national pay agreements. As regards secretarial assistance, the present arrangements were introduced in 1975 to apply to Deputies only. In view of the costs involved and the different work loads of Deputies and Senators, it is not proposed to extend these facilities to Senators. Accommodation and research facilities are, of course, a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Senator Dowling mentioned that the Department of Labour should find a formula to ensure that essential services are maintained and not disrupted by strikes. He also said that, if the industrial relations machinery is not suitable, it must be modified and updated. The Government's role is to ensure in every way the development of a favourable climate in which harmonious industrial relations can operate. Trade unions must also seek to engender in their own areas the kind of atmosphere in which problems which arises from time to time can be resolved without causing any eruption in industry. This is very important. When trouble hits an industry the parties concerned should sit down and talk before their action inflicts hardship on many innocent people. I would hope in the coming year that we would tackle this problem and that the unions, the workers and everybody would co-operate to the fullest extent in finding a solution to our problems in industrial relations. I think there is goodwill on all sides. I had my own experience of it. I negotiated in many strikes. I always found goodwill but unfortunately goodwill is not seen until a strike has taken place.

Senator Dowling raised the question of the elimination of violence in our society. In 1977 the Government authorised an increase of 500 in the strength of the Garda Síochána. It is expected that the strength of the force will be close to the target figure of 9,500 by the end of this year. Various measures involving the reorganisation of the force are either being implemented or are under consideration. Other measures aimed specifically at combating crime are being taken. The strength of the detective force is being substantially increased. The concept of specialised units to deal with particular categories of crime is being examined. It is being extended by the establishment of a special task force which will give the Garda greater capacity to deal with crimes of violence. Steps are being taken to revise technical and scientific assistance for the force. The Senator can rest assured that the breathalyser law is being applied. This is illustrated by the fact that since August, when the law came into force, the number of samples sent by the Garda for inspection has increased from about 400 to about 700.

Senator Connaughton referred to the Dunkellin River, on which I answered a question in the Dáil yesterday. He may not have heard my reply. Everything possible is being done in the field of drainage. Senator Murphy mentioned the ESB. Very recently I advertised for 20 engineers for my Department. I recruited four. That is a good sign, even though Departments suffer for it. There must be quite a boom in the building construction trade if we cannot get sufficient engineers for Departments. In regard to the Dunkellin River, we are at design stage and everything possible is being done to expedite this matter.

Senator Connaughton also referred to the possibility of amending legislation to enable the Commissioners of Public Works to execute maintenance works in an area not included in the original arterial drainage scheme. The drainage scheme was designed by professional engineering staff. Subsequently, all catchment areas where economic benefit might accrue from drainage are included in the scheme. I do not think I got his point. If he wishes to discuss the matter with me later I will be only too delighted to give him the information he requires.

Senator O'Toole referred to the possible inclusion of areas in the west which would not be considered for drainage works coming under EEC aid. The same considerations in regard to cost benefit analysis apply to rivers on the priority lists included for consideration for EEC aid. Following much research and consideration the commissioners considered that the economic and technical resources can best and most effectively apply to existing rivers on the priority list. I am sure that Senator O'Toole is aware that the greater part of EEC aid for drainage will be allocated under the Department of Agriculture for land drainage. There is a set priority in drainage which has been approved by Governments over the years and we should stick to those priorities. In that way the greatest benefit is gained for the farming community of the area. We have not departed from any of our priorities. At the same time I am not compelled to follow the priorities set by my predecessors. All drainge schemes are kept under consideration so that if at any time there is a change of policy we can change a drainage scheme without the need for legislation. I want to thank everyone for a very enlightening discussion. Unfortunately, I was not able to answer all the questions raised. They have been brought to my notice and I have no doubt that there will be some action taken in certain areas. I thank Senators again for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.

Sar a gcríochnaimíd, ba mhaith liom Nollaig shona a ghuí chuig gach Seanadóir anseo, chuig na seirbhísigh go léir atá ag obair san Teach agus don lucht nuachtáin atá thall ansin ar an ardán.

The Seanad adjourned at 12.53 p.m., sine die.

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