Committee of Selection: Second Report.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Committee of Selection reports that it has nominated the following members to serve on the Joint Committee on Standing Orders relative to Private Business:—Senators Cranitch, Dooge and Robinson.

The following members to serve on the Joint Committee on the Secondary legislation of the European Communities: Senators Durkan, Hourigan, Hussey, Killilea, Lanigan, Robinson, Ross and Smith.

The following members to serve on the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries:—Senators Bulbulia, Fitzgerald, Loughrey, O'Keeffe, O'Mahony and O'Rourke.

The following members to serve on the Standing Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills:—Senators Mara, Eoin Ryan and Taylor.

The following members to serve on the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies:—Senators Crowley, Howard, O'Mahony, Eoin Ryan and O'Toole.

The following members to serve on the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments:—Senators Barnes, Bolger, de Brún, Dowling, Farrell, Harte, Lanigan, Mullooly and West.

The following members to serve on the Joint Committee on Building Land: Senators Brennan, Cregan, Fallon, Ferris, Mara, Nolan and O'Connell.

The following members to serve on the Joint Library Committee:—Senators Cassidy, Seán Conway, Dowling, de Brún, McAuliffe, Mullooly and O'Connell.

And the following members to serve on the Joint Restaurant Committee: Senators Belton, Bolger, Timmy Conway, Hannon, Herbert, McGlinchey and Wright.

I move: "That the Report be laid before the Seanad."

Professor Murphy

Let me ask the Leas-Chathaoirleach to read out again the names nominated to serve on the Joint Committee on the Building Land, and slowly please?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The following Members to serve on the Joint Committee on Building Land: Senators Brennan, Cregan, Fallon, Ferris, Mara, Nolan and O'Connell.

Professor Murphy

I move that that section of the Report of the Committee of Selection which deals with the Joint Committee on Building Land be rejected because there is something very odd indeed behind this.

I have had a motion on the Order Paper since the second last Seanad dealing with this question and it appears on today's Order Paper under item No. 14:

That Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to take urgent steps in the public interest to control the cost of land required for building.

I have made the same point repeatedly in my election leaflets. I have made it in speeches outside this House, and in various discussions we have had on the Constitution here I have referred to the crucial infirmity of the Constitution on the question of private property as one of the reasons alleged for failure to deal with this national scandal.

Senators may recall that last week when we were asked to approve the motion to set up the joint committee I expressed the hope that a place would be found for an Independent Member precisely because of my interest and that of Senator Brendan Ryan, whose name is coupled with mine in that motion, in this question. Senator Ryan and I being very much concerned about this, both expressed an interest to find a place on the joint committee if one was to be given to an Independent and since we each had equal interest we agreed on a simple and old fashioned way of deciding which one of us would go on if we were asked to go on, by tossing a coin, and I won. That was last Thursday before the Committee of Selection met. It is my information — and I cannot swear to it as I am not privy to the affairs of the committee but I hope it will come out in the discussion — that Fianna Fáil were prepared to accept Senator Brendan Ryan as a member of the joint committee but they were not prepared to accept me. My further information is that the instruction not to accept me as a member of the Joint Committee on Building Land came from outside and higher than this House. There is another curious point about this report. Why did it take two meetings of the Committee of Selection to return this list of Members? Was this partly because, as I have pointed out more than once, the Government party and members of the Government had over the years no clean record on the matter of land speculation and land re-zoning? The importance of this matter as I see it is that, if there is to be an Independent on the committee, Fianna Fáil are dictating who that Independent should be. I suggest that the House should find that totally unacceptable, that it is an insult to the House.

The larger question is whether this alters the credibililty of Fianna Fáil in their intentions to proceed with this joint committee as an alternative to legislation. I must ask the House to oppose the report and I ask Senators to support me.

Mr. B. Ryan

I consider myself to be under some obligation to clarify a number of matters on this question since I am the single Independent member of the Committee of Selection. I wish to make a few points fairly clearly and I hope unemotionally. Senator Murphy's account of how we settled on who would be an Independent representative on this committee is correct. It was done by full agreement and with the acceptance of all the Independent Members. Then, unfortunately, somebody from the Labour Party, in an endeavour which I am sure was based on the best of goodwill, raised the question with Fianna Fáil of making a place available to me on that committee. That was done without my authorisation or without any consultation with me. I am flattered that both the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil agree that I would be a suitable Member to serve on the committee to investigate the control of the price of building land. I take that as a compliment to my activities in this House and I would have been happy to serve on the committee. But the fact is that Senator Murphy and I had agreed on a different line of action.

The second aspect of the matter that bothers me — and in saying this I am not implying anything — is that I was under the impression that the Committee of Selection finished their business on this matter last week and I am not too clear how it could resume business today on something that I understood we finished business on last week. However, I understand there is an explanation for this. I am simply saying this because I was involved in many of these matters and therefore it would be invidious if it were in any way to be suggested that I acted in any way other than to look after the interests of that group whom I represent on that committee. Having said that and having thanked both Fianna Fáil and Labour for their flattering agreement to allow me on to the committee, I could not accept the right of Fianna Fáil to say that they would have one Independent representative rather than another on any committee. Whether it be a committee on building land or the restaurant committee is irrelevant. If people want to concede a position to Independents it will have to be left to that group to determine which member is on that committee. I therefore quite happily support Senator Murphy in his proposal to refer back that section of the report because I find it unacceptable, flattered though I be by the willingness of Fianna Fáil to accept me on the committee. Some people have suggested to me that perhaps I am not standing where I should stand but I have always found it easy on many issues to work with Fianna Fáil in this House. I work on the issues, whatever may be my views about personalities or otherwise in parties.

But that is not the fundamental question. The fundamental question is that we as a group of Independent Senators must have the absolute right to choose whom we wish for whichever committee we wish. Any attempt by any other political group to dictate to us would be unprecedented and would be fundamentally wrong. I regret the confusion that arose about who was the Independent nominee. That was not of my doing and the people who were at the Committee of Selection will be aware that from the moment it arose I made clear what the position was. I endeavoured to contact Senator Murphy to clarify the matter. I failed to do so and therefore I told the secretary of the committee that Senator Murphy would be the Independent nominee. My name arose because of a mistake made by somebody else, done without my knowledge, without my agreement and without any reference to me. That is where the confusion arose. But underlying all of this is the fundamental fact that we could not allow any other political group to say which Independent Member would serve on any committee of this House. Therefore this whole regrettable matter has to be raised and I would have to support Senator Murphy`s proposal.

Mr. Ross

As an independent among Independents on this issue I would just like to say that I do not intend to debate the merits of Senators Ryan and Murphy but that it seems to me that there is some very funny carry-on going on here. The question is: was Senator Ryan acceptable as an Independent or was Senator Ryan acceptable because he was Senator Ryan? If he was acceptable as an Independent and a place was being reserved for Independents there can be no objection to Senator Murphy at all. If he was acceptable to Senator Ryan it is quite obvious that the Government are dictating the personalities and that they are fiddling the committees to suit themselves. I support what the two Independent Senators have said and I would ask the Government to withdraw one of their members and allow Senator Murphy to be a member of the committee.

Mr. Ferris

As my party have been mentioned in the contribution on this report I wish to set the record straight as far as we are concerned. I am not privy to the proceedings of this committee. I just happen to be the leader of the Labour group in the Seanad. It is our function to sit down and nominate the various people who are entitled according to the precedents of the House to nomination on the various committees. Each party or grouping are entitled to a certain number of representatives and we nominated people on that basis for each one of them. This committee resulted from a Labour Party Private Members Bill being initiated in the Dáil. Needless to say my party have had a big input into this legislation. It was formed in the main by Deputy Ruairí Quinn, who had consultations, I gather, with Senator Ryan and in the course of discussion a wish was expressed either by one or the other or jointly that it would be a committee on which Senator Ryan would like to serve. At that time the group leaders had sat and decided on the membership. The membership, according to the precedents of the House, would be four from Fianna Fáil, two from Fine Gael and one from Labour. I am sure that Senator Ryan has an input to make to the committee. In saying that, I am not taking from Senator Murphy but his views were not communicated to me. As a result of what Deputy Quinn conveyed to me I considered it my duty to consult with the Fianna Fáil Whip, Senator Willie Ryan, and I expressed the view that Senator Ryan could possibly be accommodated if Fianna Fáil were good enough to concede one of their places. He agreed to go back to the Government Whip to discuss it. That is where the matter finished as far as I was concerned. Now I learn of the other views that have been expressed by Senator Murphy. Perhaps Senator Ryan of the Government side of the House would confirm what I have said as to how the situation arose. It is regrettable that the House is restricted to numbers as there are obviously so many people here who could make valuable contributions to this possible legislation. The committee will have a lot of hard work to do to overcome many of the legislative and constitutional problems that will be involved in the framing of any future Bill along these lines. The Labour Party would like to make a contribution and that is one of the reasons we insisted that we should try to hold our one place on the committee.

Mr. E. Ryan

It has been made fairly clear already from the speeches that have been made that the allocation of seats on this committee as on the other committees is in accordance with the formula that has been adopted over many years and in accordance with that formula Fianna Fáil were entitled to four seats on this committee, Fine Gael to two and Labour to one. The recommendation was made that Senator Brendan Ryan would be a useful member of that committee and it was suggested to Fianna Fáil that they give one of their four seats to him. Having considered the matter, they agreed to do so. Senator Ryan, for his own good reasons, decided he could not accept that position. In the circumstances we nominated another member of this group to fill the vacancy. That is the beginning and the end of the position. It is regrettable that it should be necessary to discuss at all this report of the committee but in view of the excursion into fantasy land — the attempt by Senator Murphy to introduce a cloak and dagger element into this — it is necessary to explain the very simple facts of the matter.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 25; Níl, 21.

Tá

Brennan, Paudge.
Cassidy, Donie.
Conway, Seán.
Cranitch, Mícheál.
Fallon, Seán.
Farrell, William.
Fitzgerald, Tom.
Hanafin, Des.
Hannon, Camilla.
Herbert, Tony.
Hussey, Thomas.
Killilea, Mark.
Lanigan, Mick.
Larkin, James.
Mallon, Séamus.
Mara, Patrick J.
Mullooly, Brian.
Nolan, Matthew J.
O'Keeffe, Edmond.
O'Rourke, Mary.
O'Toole, Martin J.
Ryan, Eoin.
Ryan, William.
Smith, Michael.
Wright, Thomas A.

Níl

Barnes, Monica.
Bolger, Deirdre.
Bulbulia, Katharine.
Byrne, Toddie.
Conway, Timmy.
Cregan, Denis (Dino).
Daly, Jack.
Dowling, Dick.
Durkan, Bernard J.
Ferris, Michael.
Harte, John.
Hourigan, Richard V.
Howard, Michael.
Mannion, John M.
Murphy, John A.
O'Connell, Maurice.
O'Mahony, Flor.
Reynolds, Pat Joe.
Ross, Shane P.N.
Ryan, Brendan.
Taylor, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and Cranitch; Níl, Senators Murphy and B. Ryan.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Robb

There is one abstention. Is it possible to record abstentions?

An Cathaoirleach

It is not recorded, Senator Robb.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As the impartial chairman of the committee, I found it necessary to abstain.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 22 Jul 1982