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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 1984

Vol. 103 No. 4

Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Bill, 1983: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Limerick East): The proposals in this Bill are for the most part of a rather technical nature. The need for the Bill arises from a judgment of the Supreme Court that was given in November 1980, in the case of Gilsenan. v. Foundary House Investments Limited and Rathmines Properties Limited. That judgment, which is so far unreported, bears on the determination of the rent that is payable under a renewal of a ground rent lease, or a reversionary lease as it is called. The judgment amounted to a finding that the existing provisions of the law for determining such a rent are unworkable. The background is as follows.

Ground rent tenants have, in general, the right either to buy out the ground landlord and acquire the fee simple, or to renew their leases for 99-year terms. The rent that is payable under the renewed lease represents what one may call an updated ground rent, that is to say it is related to the current open-market rent of the property in question. In consequence it is usually very different from the rent payable under the previous lease, granted very many years ago. The legislation provides a formula which relates the new rent to the rent which, in the opinion of the court, a willing lessee not already in occupation would give and a willing lessor would take for the land comprised in the reversionary lease. The new lease is, as I have said, for a 99-year term. The Supreme Court, in arriving at the judgment I have mentioned, had had evidence that freely negotiated leases of that kind are no longer entered into, in other words that a lessor would not now willingly grant a lease for a term as long as 99 years at a fixed rent. Without provision for rent reviews, no such willing lessor is to be found nor can any such rent be determined, and on that basis the court found that the formula is inoperable.

Two main consequences follow from that judgement. The first is that the courts are unable to determine the terms of a reversionary lease and such terms cannot be fixed if the parties themselves cannot agree on the terms. The other is that — again in the absence of agreement between the parties — a ground rent tenant who wants to buy out the fee simple rather than get a reversionary lease cannot implement his right of purchase unless his lease has more than 15 years to run. The reason for this is that, where the lease has less than 15 years to run, or where it has already expired, one of the considerations — perhaps the most important consideration — that bears on determination of the purchase price is the rent that would be reserved under a reversionary lease. Since as matters now stand that rent cannot be determined except by agreement between the parties, the purchase price of the fee simple likewise cannot be determined except by agreement in the cases I have mentioned.

The judgement of the Supreme Court was to the effect that these provisions of the law had come to lack relevance to current market conditions. The obvious change that is necessary in order to permit the rent under a reversionary lease to be related to current market conditions is, of course, to introduce provision for reviews of the rent payable under such a lease. Consultation has established that there is fairly general agreement among those professionally concerned with the matter that the review period should be five years, that is to say, that the rent payable under a reversionary lease should be open to review, at the instance of either lessor or lessee, at intervals of not less than five years. Section 3 of the Bill proposes a change of this kind for future reversionary leases. The review period of five years is the same as the Bill proposes a change of this kind for future reversionary leases. The review period of five years is the same as the review period that already applies to the rent payable when a different kind of tenancy — namely an occupational tenancy — is being renewed by intervention of the courts.

Section 5 of the Bill proposes that rent reviews at intervals of not less than five years should also apply in the case of any sporting lease that is granted in the future. The law as it stands — in section 5 of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act, 1971 — already contains limited provision for reviews of the rent payable under sporting leases which, like reversionary leases, run for terms of 99 years. Where the terms of a sporting lease are fixed by the court the rent is subject to review, at the option of the lessor, after 24 years and thereafter at intervals of not less than 25 years, and the rent itself is a "fair rent" that is determined in the light of a number of considerations.

The judgment of the Supreme Court which I have mentioned was not directly concerned with the determination of rents under sporting leases. However, it is a possible inference from that judgment that no rent could be "fair" that could not be altered over such a lengthy period. Accordingly, section 5 provides for rent review periods of not less than five years, at the instance of either lessor or lessee, in any future sporting leases whose rents fall to be fixed by the court. Existing sporting leases do not come within the scope of these proposals. It is reasonable to take the view that interference with existing leases is not warranted in the absence of a definite indication that the terms of such leases cannot be operated.

Of course, the changes that must be introduced to enable the courts to fix the rent under a reversionary lease invite the question as to why the right to a reversionary lease should not simply be abolished. After the changes we have been discussing had been brought about, how many ground rent lessees would actually be interested in obtaining a reversionary lease, since they would be committed to the expense and trouble and uncertainty of rent reviews every few years? Would it not be simpler to leave ground rent tenants with the single remedy, that is to buy out the fee simple, which of course they would have to do if the right to a renewed lease were abolished? The landlord and tenant code would be simplified; a step would be taken towards simplifying titles to land, and the persons concerned would be saved the expense and so on that I have mentioned.

This question has been considered carefully and full weight has been given to representations that have been made. The conclusion that I have reached — and that has been accepted by the Government — is that, on balance, the right to a reversionary lease should be preserved. This is a right which some tenants will find essential in practice. A greater number will find it preferable to purchase the fee simple and such a freedom of choice must be given some value.

Provision for the grant of reversionary leases will continue to be necessary in special cases — for example, ground rent leases made by harbour authorities — where the right of purchase does not apply. However, the most important reason for preserving the right to a reversionary lease is the objection in principle that arises to the abolition of an existing legal right, with the consequence that the alternative right to buy out would become less a right than a matter of practical necessity, and that, perhaps, in circumstances where the necessity to buy out was a most unwelcome one for financial or other reasons.

We now come to consider the effect of the judgment of the Supreme Court in relation to the question of determining the price of the free simple where ground rent lessees are buying out and where their leases are expiring, or have already expired. Arising out of that judgment it has become necessary to settle completely new provisions in the law in that regard. As I have said, the rent that would be reserved in a "reversionary" lease has hitherto been the most important consideration in determining purchase price in such cases. The introduction of five-year rent reviews under future reversionary leases raises an immediate problem as to how purchase price can be related to the rents in any objective manner. In fact this is quite impossible and a fresh approach had to be adopted.

An example may bring out the difficulty. Take a case where a tenant exercises his right to get a reversionary lease before termination of his present lease and where that lease would not commence to run for more than five years — that is, where the ground rent purchaser's existing lease has more than five years to run. In such a case no one can say what the commencing rent would be under that reversionary lease because, even if a rent is settled now it will fall to be reviewed, under the rent review proposals we have been discussing, before the lease commences to run. Accordingly, no purchase price can be determined here and now if its determination depends upon that rent.

Because of these considerations it was necessary to find some new basis for determining purchase price in these cases. The solution that is proposed in the Bill in subsection (4) of section 7, is that, where the purchaser's lease has expired or where a rent review is already due, the purchase price will normally be one-eighth of the current fee simple market value of the property in question, subject to the making of adjustments and allowances of the same kind as are made in determining the rent to be reserved in a reversionary lease. The proposals are designed to reflect closely the provisions of the law as it stands in accordance with which reversionary rents fall to be determined by the courts on the basis that they be one-eighth of the open market rent of the property. In other words, the proposed new formula maintains, in terms of a purchase price, the same stakes in the property of the ground landlord and of the ground rent lessee as the old formula provides in terms of a rent.

The parallel is one that is reflected in detail in the new proposals. Under the provisions of the law as it stands the actual rent payable under a reversionary lease excludes any rental element arising from the value of the lessee's goodwill or from any improvements that the lessee has voluntarily undertaken. Similar exclusions are provided in the new formula in relation to purchase price. Again, the rent under a reversionary lease is based on the rent of the property in its present use and with its existing buildings. That is to say, that rent excludes any element attributable to development value, and this is again reflected in the formula. Finally, in so far as the existence of covenants could have a bearing on the amount either of rent or of purchase price, the proposed new formula allows for this so as to ensure that no distortion is introduced.

While the rent that would be reserved in a reversionary lease is the most important consideration that bears on the determination of purchase price in a case where a ground rent lessee is buying out and where his lease is expiring, or has already expired, it is not the only consideration. There are other matters to which regard is to be had in determining price. Because of the importance of the changes that are being proposed, however, and for clarity and simplicity, the existing price provisions as contained in section 17 of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act, 1978, are being repealed and re-enacted and the old and new provisions together are set out in full in section 7 of the Bill.

Senators who have some familiarity with the landlord and tenant code will note that certain other changes are being proposed in section 17 of the 1978 No. 2 Act. One such proposal is that the purchase price of the fee simple should be determined by reference to circumstances obtaining at the date the purchase application is made, rather than being left to depend — at least in some cases — on the date of a final judicial determination where price is in dispute. The reason for the change is that the date on which price is determined could in future be a matter of greater importance than in the past, since price may be rather more liable to vary as a matter of time, and it would be fairer that the date should be a definite one. A further change is that the new price formula is being applied not only to cases where the relevant lease is expiring or has expired but also to cases where a rent review is due within the 15 years. The reason for this change is that where a rent review is due the price of the fee simple is influenced in the same way as if the lease were expiring. Finally, it is proposed that, in the determination of purchase price in cases where the new formula will apply, but where there is yet some time to run to the expiration of the relevant lease, or to the rent review, as the case may be, that length of time should be taken specifically into account. This provision is in section 7 (9).

Senators who look at what I may call the sliding scale provisions for price in section 7 (8) may perhaps be puzzled as to why the subsection (9) provision that I have just mentioned is not simply assimilated to the sliding scale in subsection (8).

Subsection (8) represents in substance the re-enactment of the provision in section 17(6) of the 1978 No. 2 Act that provide for the determination of price according to a sliding scale. That price depends on the length of time to run under the lease at the existing rent and the scale goes from the lowest point — where the lease has more than 15 years to run and where the provisions for the "formula" maximum price apply — to the highest point, where the lease has run out or, as may be the case from now on, where a rent review is due. However, since that "formula" maximum price does not apply in the case of all ground-rented properties — typically it applies in the case of the ordinary dwellinghouse that is held under a long lease — the scope of subsection (8) is likewise restricted to cases where that maximum price applies, or rather where it would apply were not the lease running out.

I may mention in passing that the provisions for this "formula" maximum price are being re-enacted in section 7 (5). Subsection (9) on the other hand, while it also concerns cases where there is yet some time to run to expiration of the lease, or to a rent review, yet concerns cases of a different kind. It concerns cases such as business properties where the "formula" maximum price does not apply. In such cases the high point of the scale can be ascertained, the point where a lease has run out or the time for a rent review has arrived, but there is no low point. In other words, no matter how many years there are to run on the lease of a business property, there is no "formula" for purchase price at the lower end of the scale. Accordingly subsection (9) simply provides that, where the lease has run to within 15 years of expiration or of a rent review, the length of time still to run is to be taken into account in determining purchase price.

What I have said so far covers in outline the main proposals in the Bill, that is, the proposals for rent reviews in reversionary leases and the proposals for a new price formula in certain cases of purchase of the fee simple.

A number of ancillary proposals are contained in sections 4, 8 and 13, of which the most important — in sections 4 and 13 — are designed to cater for cases where leasehold renewal or purchase of the fee simple has been held up in consequence of the Supreme Court judgment on foot of which the main proposals in the Bill arise. In some such cases at least it is possible that rights of renewal or of purchase could have been carried away by the passage of time alone and without default on the part of the party concerned. The Bill provides a further period of 12 months within which such rights may still be exercised following the coming into operation of the legislation and the removal of the difficulties that have imposed the delays.

In particular, section 13 caters for any cases where a ground rent lessee, who would have preferred to buy out the fee simple, may have felt himself constrained to apply instead for a reversionary lease rather than see his lease run out — and with it, perhaps, his right of purchase. Where such proceedings have not actually been concluded the lessee is being given the option of buying out instead, subject to recoupment of the other parties' costs. A 12-month limit is again being proposed in respect of this relief.

A number of miscellaneous improvements in the landlord and tenant code are also being proposed, most of them of a rather minor nature. There are three of these proposals that may be of sufficient importance to warrant mention now. One — in section 9 — amounts to the recognition of a new class of ground rent tenant, although the change that is proposed is rather a marginal one. What section 9 proposes in effect is that, where a yearly tenant can prove that the buildings on his property were erected by himself or his predecessors, and where otherwise he satisfies the necessary conditions, he will be recognised as a ground rent tenant — a recognised that carries with it the right to buy out the fee simple — even though his yearly rent is not less than the rateable valuation of the property. At present the rent under a yearly tenancy must be less than the rateable valuation, on an annual basis, otherwise the tenant cannot have recognition as a ground rent tenant even in a case where he or his predecessors built on a bare site. Of course, this does not affect the position of tenants who are not in a position to establish that they did so build and for whom the rent/valuation criterion may be essential in establishing their rights.

The second change is in section 14 which proposes an amendment of section 4 of the 1980 Landlord and Tenant Act — merely to remove a minor anomaly. Section 4 of the 1980 Act, while declaring the State to be exempt from the legislation, nevertheless extends limited rights under the Act to persons to whom rights had already accrued before the State authority concerned became landlord. Such persons retain their right to a renewed tenancy, on one occasion only, and their right to compensation for any improvements already carried out.

It has come to notice that an anomaly could arise in applying the provisions of section 4 of the 1980 Act in a case where one State authority took over as landlord from another State authority. In such a case a tenant who had no rights previously could acquire them, contrary to the intentions of section 4 of the 1980 Act. Section 14 of the Bill proposes, accordingly, that the rights I have mentioned will be preserved only in a case where a State authority becomes landlord of a tenanted property in which no State authority had any previous interest as landlord.

The third change is in section 15. It is proposed that section 15 will replace section 24 of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act, 1980. Section 24 of the 1980 Act provides for rent reviews under renewed occupational tenancies and the new proposals mean that, following such a rent review, the reviewed rent will run, not from the date the reviewed rent is fixed, but from the date the rent review proceedings are commenced, provided the previous rent has run for the necessary minimum of five years. The change is being introduced in the interest of fairness. It could happen, for example, if protracted negotiations for a rent review were followed by protracted litigation, that a considerable time could elapse between the initiation of a rent review and the final determination of that rent on review. The new rent review procedure that is proposed in section 15 represents my acceptance, with the approval of the Government, of the validity of representations that have been made to me for a change of this kind.

As the law stands, in section 24 of the Act of 1980, the reviewed rent could commence to run only from the date of the determination of that reviewed rent, even though that date is outside the control of either party to the tenancy. Under the proposals in section 15 of the Bill, five years will continue to be the minimum period for which a rent will run before any alteration upon review. Likewise, if there is dealy in initiating a review, the operation of the reviewed rent may be delayed for that reason as under the present law. However, that operation will no longer be subject to delay simply because of procedural delays: in principle the reviewed rent will run from the date of the review notice rather than from the date the rent is finally determined, and the time for service of the review notice is being regulated accordingly. These amended provisions are of a general character and — apart from their application to occupational tenancies — they will also apply in relation to the proposed rent reviews under future reversionary leases and sporting leases that I have described.

There is one further matter that I should like to mention before I conclude. When this Bill was being debated in Dáil Éireann I found it necessary to make it clear that in my view the question of the abolition of ground rents, in the sense in which the ground rents campaigners use that expression, is one that is quite outside the scope of this Bill. I am sure, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, that this will also be readily understood by this House and that Senators will appreciate that I could not appropriately address myself to that problem in the context of this legislation.

I commend the Bill to the House. I ask that it be given a Second Reading.

This Bill arises from a Supreme Court case of Gilsenan V. Foundary House Investments Limited and Rathmines Property Limited in which the difficulty in fixing rent in reversionary leases was discussed. It was found that because no review was possible in the 99-year term it was in fact impossible to fix the terms. This Bill enables the court to introduce reviews and accordingly to introduce appropriate terms. The Bill also provides similar powers in sporting leases and arising from these changes it provides methods for determination of the purchase price of the fee simple. This can be done by arbitration. All of these provisions in the Bill were obviously necessary and the methods of making the changes and introducing the reforms are reasonable and acceptable ones. Certainly they will be accepted by this side of the House. I am glad that the Minister has also taken the opportunity to deal with a number of relatively small points which were necessary and it is an ideal opportunity to get them out of the way in this Bill which is obviously a non-contentious one.

This is a technical Bill which adds to the already very complex code of landlord and tenant law. It was, as the Minister said, necessitated by the decision of the Supreme Court in the Gilsenan case. In that case the Supreme Court found that the existing statutory mechanism for determining rent payable under a reversionary lease was unworkable. The Supreme Court was right in that the existing system is to my mind both socially and commercially irrelevant in the eighties. It was found unworkable because in the event of renewal of such a lease for a long term it is impossible to determine the rent on the basis of the same being the current open market rent where there is no provision for rent review clauses. In an age of inflation and of rapidly changing property uses and property values, such is understandable. The parties may agree terms but where agreement is not forthcoming the courts must step in. Following the decision in the Gilsenan case it is quite clear that the courts are no longer willing to do so until a new mechanism is provided.

There is, of course, the second difficulty which the Minister referred to and that is the difficulty which arises for tenants who are anxious to purchase the fee simple and their leases have less than 15 years to run. Then the purchase price relates to the rent which would be payable under the reversionary lease. The purchase price cannot be determined as the rent which would be payable under such a lease cannot be determined.

This Bill raises one or two other important points, first that the law of landlord and tenant is extremely complex, secondly, that there is extreme and urgent need for consolidation in this area. It is interesting that this legislation is being introduced in response to a decision of our Supreme Court. In fact, recent legislation in this area has, by and large, all been in response to decisions of the High Court or the Supreme Court. It is time that the State should show some initiative in reforming and consolidating this area of the law. I would like to see the Law Reform Commission getting involved in this area. They are a very heavily-funded body who, to my mind, have been engaging themselves in examination of very obscure areas of the law and I think they would be better serving the public if they examined more relevant areas such as the law of landlord and tenant. I fully support the Bill.

Under section 15 of the Bill where the terms of a new tenancy are fixed by the court, under Part II of the Act of 1980, the landlord or the ten-and shall be entitled to have the rent reviewed in accordance with this section. Part II of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1980, refers to the Rent Restrictions Acts on at least seven occasions. So, I would like briefly to give my views on this aspect, that is the Supreme Court judgment regarding the Rent Restrictions Acts. I believe profoundly, and I gather there are eminent lawyers who feel likewise, that the Supreme Court has not the power of judicial review over the Rent Restrictions Acts which it declared in the recent past to be unconstitutional. I had not been long elected to the Seanad when I was approached to make strong representation and protest in this regard because of the importance of the question. All my subsequent consideration of the matter has convinced me that the Supreme Court has not this power.

On a point of order, I do not mind if you decide we should extend our discussion to include the question of the extraneous matter of the landlord and tenant code, the fixing of rent, private dwellings and so on. I wonder is that within the terms of the Bill. If it is, I have not done my preparation correctly because I thought it would not be within the terms of the Bill.

In Part II of the 1980 Landlord and Tenant Act the Rent Restrictions Act is referred to on at least seven occasions. I think that within the ambit of a Second Stage debate I am entitled to develop this. Furthermore, let me say that no later than in today's paper we read of a judge who has expressed his concern at defects in the legislation and he mentioned that judges have no function in this regard, that it is a matter for the Oireachtas.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not like to interrupt, but this is a Bill on ground rents.

Would you not agree that it is a most important matter in relation to the Landlord and Tenant Acts and the judgment of the Supreme Court? I am saying that the Supreme Court usurps the powers of Parliament in its judgment. Would you not consider that a matter of such importance should be discussed on this Stage? The people that I am concerned about in relation to the judgment of the Supreme Court are from the weaker sections of our community. I have gone into this in some detail and I would be most disappointed if you insist that I cannot, in my contribution, discuss these matters which I think are most important for the Legislature.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not like interrupting the Senator again but I would like to refer him to the Minister's speech where he refers to section 15.

He was specifically referring to section 24 of the 1980 Act. I am saying that this is Part II of the 1980 Act which includes so many references to the Rent Restrictions Acts. I do not understand why Senator O'Leary is objecting to my reference to the judgment of the Supreme Court.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Will the Senator continue?

As I said, I was not long elected to the Seanad when I was asked to make strong representations and protests in this regard because of the importance of the question. All my subsequent consideration of the matter has convinced me that the Supreme Court has not this power. I am saying that the Supreme Court decision is wrong in law according to some concerned people qualified to express a view on this matter. It is not a decision in accordance with the law of this country for the following reasons. Article 43 of the Constitution gives power to the State to delimit the use of private property subject to the exigencies of the common good. The Chief Justice, in reading the judgment of the court, stated that this was subject to qualification, namely, it must not be unjust. I am convinced that the court is wrong in this interpretation because the Article means precisely what it states and there is no ambiguity about it. The people ratified this Article as it reads and not as the court would wish it to read. The court did not refer to Article 45 in its judgment. Why did it not do so? Here is the preamble:

The principles of social justice set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles——

On a point of order, is it in order to use the Second Stage of a Bill like this, which deals with reversionary leases, to discuss the constitutionality or otherwise of an Act which has gone through this House and been adjudicated on and which has no connection whatsoever with this Bill other than that they both have to do with the landlord and tenant code?

There is no other connection between them. They deal with totally different matters.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

For Senator O'Leary's benefit and for Senator Fitzsimons' benefit I have already brought it to the notice of the House and I do not know if anybody has taken notice of it. That is not usual. Senator O'Leary is telling me that we have already had the legislation through the House that Senator Fitzsimons is talking about. Could we get back to the Bill which is a very technical one?

I am specifically referring to——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not think I want a debate between Senator Fitzsimons and the Chair. There may be a mix up between the two pieces of legislation as far as the Senator is concerned.

I cannot understand why Senator O'Leary is objecting to my contribution and specifically in relation to the judgment of the Supreme Court. I am saying that in declaring unconstitutional the Rent Restrictions Acts——

It has nothing to do with that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not think it has anything to do with what Senator Fitzsimons has been talking about.

I accept the Chair's decision in this matter but, as I have already said, Part II of the 1980 Act on at least seven occasions refers to the Rent Restrictions Acts. Within the parameter of a Second Stage speech I do not think I am out of order.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not think it allows the Senator to discuss the whole ambit of the Rent Restrictions Act.

I do not intend to go into all the details as it would take too much time.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am not knocking the Senator on his contribution because I am being advised by Senator O'Leary from the Government side of the House. I want to make that quite clear to the Senator. The Senator has gone outside the narrow scope of the Bill we are discussing. I am not being advised by my legal adviser on the left. I would not like the Senator to think that.

You are——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When I want advice I will ask somebody but not Senator O'Leary.

Is it in order for me to rise on a point of order if a Member is disorderly?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Absolutely, Senator O'Leary.

When I do so I do not think I should be subjected to direct or indirect attacks from the Chair for so doing.

I do not think Senator Fitzsimons was disorderly in any way. It is most unfair to say that about him.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Fitzsimons to continue.

I presume the Chair will allow me to continue on the lines on which I have been speaking.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator should take another look at the Bill.

I have looked at the Bill in detail. I have given it as much attention as any other Member of the House. I felt that this was an opportunity to refer to the Supreme Court judgment on the Rent Restrictions Acts. In relation to a Second Stage speech——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It has nothing to do with the Bill before the House.

I will accept the Chair's ruling. I am most disappointed with Senator O'Leary for objecting to my contribution on this matter. I feel that I am entitled to discuss it from the point of view of importance, and the fact that it has been referred to so many times in Part II which is specifically referred to in this Bill. There is no party political angle to it. It is concern for the weaker sections of the community. I want to put on record that I am most disappointed that Senator O'Leary was the only Member of this House to stand up and object.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I did not make my ruling because of Senator O'Leary's intervention. Let us get on with the debate.

I simply want to repeat that I am disappointed I was not allowed to make the case because I felt it is a strong one that should be made and that this is the proper place in which to make it. Perhaps on another occasion I will get that opportunity in spite of Senator O'Leary.

Regarding other matters connected with this Bill, I note that its main purpose is to bring about certain changes in the law necessitated by a judgment of the Supreme Court in November 1980, in the case of Gilsenan v. Foundary House Investments Limited and Rathmines Properties Limited. I welcome the Bill and I believe it will have a speedy passage through this House. Consequent on the judgment the courts are unable to determine the terms of the renewed or reversionary lease. Also, a ground rent tenant who wants to buy out the fee simple rather than get a reversionary lease cannot do so unless the lease has more then 15 years to run.

The big fault in the system rejected by the Supreme Court was its weakness with regard to market conditions because of the 99-year term. Provision in the Bill for a review period of not less than five years for both lessor and lessee should prove satisfactory.

The new basis for determining purchase price, where the land is held under a lease that has expired or is held under a rent which is subject to review but has not been made, is that the purchase price will normally be one-eighth of the current fee simple market value of the property. This is on the same lines as the existing law under which reversionary rents fall to be determined by the courts on the basis that they be one-eighth of the open market rent of the property.

I see under section 15 that on a review of the rent by the court the rent shall be fixed in accordance with the relevant provisions of section 23 of the 1980 Act by reference to the date of service of the notice on which the application to the court is based rather than on the later dates in section 24, now repealed, of the 1980 Act.

I appreciate that the question of the abolition of the right to a reversionary lease was considered and rejected for good reasons. Although it would have simplified the landlord and tenant code it would have meant the abolition of an existing legal right. Nevertheless, the right to buy out the fee simple must, surely, be the most desirable from many points of view.

It is hoped that in the near future provision will be made for the total abolition of ground rent. I am particularly critical of local authorities who in the not too distant past imposed ground rent for long periods and included restrictive covenants with them for what would seem to be no sound or necesary reasons.

I would like to welcome the Bill. It is obviously more than welcome, bearing in mind the legal lacuna which has arisen as a result of the decision in the Gilsenan case. I will have a number of points to make on Committee Stage. There are just one or two general points I would like to make to express a view on Second Stage with regard to the general structure of the Bill.

The essential problem which arose, and which was dealt with by the court in the Gilsenan case, was correctly summarised by the Minister in saying that the judgment amounted to a finding that the existing provisions of the law for determining rent were unworkable and because they were unworkable a new system was necessary. In considering the Bill before us we should examine how workable the provisions are and whether they will enable the court or the arbitrator, as the case may be, to arrive at a conclusion with the degree of certainty which, apparently, the court feels is necessary before it can make a determination in these matters. Some of the comments I will make on Committee Stage will be concerned with whether the sections, as drafted, are definite enough for that purpose.

I am very disappointed that there was not an explanatory memorandum made available with the Bill. If there was ever a necessity for a Bill to have an explanatory memorandum it was in regard to this Bill. Members of the House receiving this Bill would have no idea of what is in it.

I believe there is no explanatory memorandum with an amendment.

That may well be so but there should be an explanatory memorandum with the Bill. The necessity for an explanatory memorandum was never more obvious than in this case where any Member of this House receiving this Bill, without the most painstaking research, could not get to the kernel of what the Bill is about and, therefore, could not begin to see if it achieved those objectives. We were lucky that the Minister, in his excellent speech in the Dáil, had laid out the objectives of the Bill. This was a considerable help to Members of this House in understanding the thinking behind the drafting of the various sections. Nevertheless, the Minister should take into account the necessity for an explanatory memorandum in the case of technical Bills of this kind.

I am disappointed that a Bill of this kind would not go to one of the special committees where the matter could be handled in a more leisurely and less strained atmosphere than normally exists on the floor of either House of the Oireachtas when it meets in committee as a complete House.

With regard to section 5 of the Bill, I am disappointed that it does not try to address the problem of existing sporting leases and whether they are open to challenge. The Minister's statement says:

It is reasonable to take the view that interference with existing leases is not warranted in the absence of a definite indication that the terms of such leases cannot be operated.

It appears to me that with the provisions for renewal of those rents for a period of approximately 24 or 25 years there is little doubt that when the first one of them comes up for rent review the court will adopt the attitude that it is not workable. Somebody in the Department of Justice should begin to think about problems related to that and include solutions in legislation such as this.

The provisions in section 7, which is really the kernel of the Bill, are very welcome. The Minister is to be congratulated, particularly, in respect of the provisions of section 9. There are many titles which are bad because they are split between so many different interests and the rent reserved under the various interests are so small that people do not collect them. We should encourage a situation where this kind of property can have its title improved. The provisions in section 9 are very welcome in that regard. I would also like to welcome the provisions in section 12 which overcomes any additional problem with regard to the right of a lessee to continue in possession.

Limerick East): I would like to thank the Chair and Members of this House for their contributions on Second Stage, and Senator Ryan for welcoming the Bill. As he said, it is a Bill of a very technical nature which arises from a particular Supreme Court decision. The Bill is limited to a very large degree to the response required by that particular Supreme Court decision to establish the rights of lessors and lessees which in effect had become unworkable.

Senator Durcan talked about the need for consolidation of various landlord and tenant legislation. Of course, a case can be made for that, but this Bill is confined to a response, by and large, to the decision on the Gilsenan case and does not go beyond that except in a number of very minor ways. Senator Fitzsimons talked about the Rent Restrictions Acts. They were repealed by the Private Rented Dwellings Acts which were promoted by the Minister for the Environment. Any consequential changes to be made in Part II of the 1980 Landlord and Tenant Act are matters to be dealt with in the Private Rented Dwellings Acts. It would certainly be outside the scope of this Bill.

Senator O'Leary talked about whether we should examine if the measures being proposed in this Bill would actually be workable, since the reason we have this Bill before us is that the Supreme Court found that the terms of the 1980 Act were unworkable in certain cases. That is certainly a matter worth looking at on Committee Stage.

On the question of the explanatory memorandum, it is not customary to circulate explanatory memoranda in all cases with legislation. It is fair to say that the Department of Justice probably circulate more explanatory memoranda than any other Department, but the judgment on this occasion was that the Minister's Second Stage speech would serve as an explanatory memorandum. Whether it should be referred to the legislative committee or to some other appropriate committee of the House is a debatable point.

There is a certain amount of urgency with this Bill. It is a Bill which will not have widespread public interest, but the people who are affected and the people who cannot get a reversionary lease or who cannot exercise the right to purchase the fee simple of their properties, are certainly extremely interested in it and they are extremely interested in a quick passage of this particular Bill.

The Bill is technical. Senator O'Leary said we could discuss it in a more relaxed atmosphere in a committee. I hope that on Committee Stage here I will have the opportunity to be relaxed and consult with my officials behind me, because I am certainly not a legal expert on landlord and tenant legislation. I will certainly need the advice of my officials. The way we discuss Committee Stage here can be very similar to what could happen in the legislative committee.

On the question of sporting leases, which Senator O'Leary raised, first of all, the changes that are being made here are not retrospective. They will apply to future sporting leases. That decision was taken on the basis that the Supreme Court confined itself in the Gilsenan case to leases other than sporting leases and did not make reference to sporting leases. It would be difficult to say that if the particular issue was put before them they would decide that the renewal of sporting leases was also a matter which was unworkable under existing legislation. It is a debatable point. The Government decision on this was to make certain changes in the provision of new sporting leases and to allow for rent reviews in new sporting leases but not to make it retrospective. If an appropriate case goes before the Supreme Court and if there is a decision on it then, of course, there will have to be a legislative response to that. The judgment and the decision of the Government was that it would not be done in this particular Bill. I would like to thank the House for facilitating me on Second Stage, and I would like to thank the Senators who contributed.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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