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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Jul 1987

Vol. 116 No. 19

Adoption (No. 2) Bill, 1987: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The primary purpose of this Bill is to enable the adoption of certain categories of children, mainly legitimate children with a parent or parents alive, who are not eligible for adoption under present laws. It is very important social legislation with which I am very happy to be associated.

The House will be aware that my predecessor as Minister for Health, Deputy Barry Desmond, circulated a Bill along these lines late last year. It had not reached the stage of discussion and lapsed with the dissolution of the Dáil. Deputy Alan Shatter subsequently introduced a Private Members' Bill, which had the same objective, but this was rejected by Dáil Éireann on its second reading last month.

I had no objection in principle to the aims of those Bills. But the Government's view, is and has been, that as this is a very important legislative initiative which must be handled cautiously because of the constitutional implications, it would be more appropriate that its preparation and guidance through the Oireachtas should be the responsibility of the Government. I should like to take this opportunity to make it clear that it has not been necessary for the Opposition to push me into action.

As soon as I took up office as Minister I initiated a review of my predecessor's Bill in the light of comments and recommendations made following its publication by members of the public and the various child care interests. This Bill represents the outcome of that review. While its basic principles are similar to both Deputy Desmond's and Deputy Shatter's proposals, there are some important differences in the proposed procedures for applying for an adoption order in respect of the children concerned. This Bill also gives greater emphasis to the role of the health board and deals differently with the question of court costs.

I should now like to take the House through the arguments for this important legislative development and to outline the provisions of the Bill. The first Adoption Act was enacted in this country in 1952. The essential concept of legal adoption provided for under the legislation was an arrangement involving the permanent transfer of parental rights and duties from the natural parents to adoptive parents. It terminated the child's legal relationship with his natural parents and created a new legal parent-child relationship with his adoptive parents. Subsequent Acts, in 1964,1974 and 1976 amended and extended the Principal Act while retaining this fundamental concept.

Under the current statutes an adoption order can be made only in respect of a child who (i) is an orphan; or (ii) is illegitimate; or (iii) has been legitimated by the marriage of his parents after his birth but whose birth has not been reregistered. The child's mother or guardian or any person having control over him must consent to his adoption. Two consents are involved. There must be an initial consent to placing the child for adoption before the adoption procedure can begin. The second and final consent must be given after the child has been placed with prospective adoptive parents and before the Adoption Board can make an adoption order. This latter consent can be dispensed with in certain circumstances by direction of the High Court, for example, where the court considers that the mother is unreasonably withholding her consent and where the court believes that the child has bonded with his proposed adoptive parents.

Children who are not eligible for adoption at the moment are: a legitimate child with a parent or parents alive; an illegitimate child whose mother has not given the initial consent to his placement for adoption; a foundling infant. Even if there is a reasonable assumption that the child is illegitimate it cannot be adopted if the mother cannot be found to give the essential consent to its placement for adoption.

Since the Adoption Act, 1952, came into operation, a total of 34,617 adoption orders have been made up to 31 December 1986. There has been a decline in the number of adoptions in recent years despite the increase in the number of illegitimate births. For example, 800 adoption orders were made in 1986 compared to 1,400 in 1975. More and more single mothers are opting to keep their children. Society is obviously moving away from the attitude which views single mothers and their babies as outcasts although recent statements by bodies involved with single mothers suggest that we cannot be too complacent in this regard.

There have been many calls over the years for changes in the law to enable the adoption of children born within marriage who, for varying reasons, have been separated from or abandoned by parents who are unlikely to resume their parental role. Most of these children would be under the care of health boards either with foster parents or in children's residential homes. Some of them would have been placed by their parents with friends or relatives and might not have come to the attention of the public child care services.

The case for amending legislation has been highlighted in more recent times by the Review Committee on Adoption Services who reported in 1984. The members of that committee consisted of a cross-section of persons involved with the child care and adoption services, and included health administrators, social workers, an adoptive parent, legal experts, a child psychiatrist and a priest. The committee unanimously recommended a change in the law which would enable all children deprived of normal family life to be eligible for adoption irrespective of the marital status of their parents. This recommendation received widespread support from bodies and individuals interested in child care including the Central Council of Catholic Adoption Societies, the Adoptive Parents Association, Cherish and the Irish Association of Social Workers. I should mention that Ireland is the only country in Western Europe where legitimate children, with a parent or parents alive, cannot be adopted. In Northern Ireland such children have been adoptable since 1929.

This Bill sets out to remedy that situation in so far as it can be done within the constraints of the Constitution. Its provisions will permit, in certain severely restricted circumstances, the adoption of children, whether legitimate or illegitimate, without requiring the consent of their parents to placement for adoption. It will allow such adoptions only in those instances where for a continuous period of not less than 12 months immediately before the application, the parents, for physical and moral reasons, have failed in their duty towards the child. Furthermore, it will be necessary for the High Court to be satisfied that it is likely that such failure will continue without interruption until the child attains the age of 18 years; and that such failure constitutes an abandonment on the part of the parents of all parental rights — whether under the Constitution or otherwise — with respect to the child. The question of what constitutes a failure of duty will be a matter for the High Court to determine in each particular instance.

The Bill has been drafted in close accord with Article 42.5 of the Constitution which permits, indeed requires, the State to supply the place of the parents in certain exceptional circumstances. I have followed the advice of the Attorney General in relation to the precise wording of the entire Bill. I am satisfied that, should it be referred to the Supreme Court to be tested, there are cogent and substantial grounds for arguing successfully in favour of its constitutionality.

The procedure for the adoption of a child covered by the new legislation may be summarised as follows: Foster parents who have had custody of the child in their home for a continuous period of not less than 12 months, will be entitled to make an application to the Adoption Board for an adoption order in respect of the child.

The Adoption Board will examine the application using the standard criteria that apply to all adoption applications, that is, they will look at the eligibility of the proposed adoptive parents, their suitability as adopters, whether the child has successfully bonded with them and so on.

The Adoption Board will be required to obtain the views of the appropriate health board as to the child's need for adoption. If the Adoption Board are satisfied that an adoption order would be appropriate, they will make a declaration stating that they would be prepared to make such an order if the High Court agrees. The proposed adoptive parents may then request the appropriate health board to apply to the High Court on their behalf for an order authorising the adoption.

In considering such an application the High Court must satisfy itself on a number of grounds. They are:

(a) that for a continuous period of not less than 12 months immediately preceding the application the natural parents have, for physical or moral reasons, failed in their duty towards the child;

(b) that it is likely that such failure will continue without interruption until the child is 18 years of age;

(c) that such failure constitutes an abandonment on the part of the parent of all parental rights;

(d) that by virtue of such failure the State should supply the place of the parents;

(e) that the child has been in the custody of and has had a home with the applicant for a continuous period of not less than 12 months;

(f) that the adoption of the child by the applicant is the most appropriate way to supply the place of the parents.

If the court is satisfied on all these counts and having had due regard to the rights of the natural parents and of the child itself under the Constitution, it may make an order authorising the Adoption Board to proceed to make an adoption order in respect of the child.

The court shall not make an order without having heard the natural parents of the child concerned unless they refuse to be heard or cannot be found. Furthermore, the court must, in so far as is practicable, give consideration to the views of the child.

When the court makes an order, the Adoption Board are free to complete the adoption process and the child becomes a permanent member of the adoptive family.

The Bill permits a health board to decline to make an application to the High Court even though the prospective adoptive parents have obtained a declaration from the Adoption Board that they would be prepared to make an adoption order.

It is desirable that the health board should have this option. The Adoption Board will have looked at the case from the point-of-view of the suitability of the applicants to adopt the child concerned. However, it will not be a matter for the Adoption Board to consider whether the natural parents can be regarded as having given up their parental rights. This is strictly a matter for the High Court. The health board may, however, be of the view that it would not be possible, or would be very difficult, to establish that the parents have given up their rights and may therefore decline to bring the matter to the High Court. I would hope that this situation would not often arise and that, in practice, applications which receive the preliminary approval of the Adoption Board would always have a least a reasonable chance of securing the subsequent agreement of the High Court.

In order to ensure that no prospective adoptive parents should feel that they have been unreasonably treated as a result of the refusal, or failure, of a health board to initiate a High Court application, the Bill enables prospective adopters themselves to apply to the High Court when a health board for whatever reason, does not do so. Where this happens the parents themselves will have to bear the costs if their application fails. Where they succeed the health board, who will have been made a party to the application, will be responsible for the costs if the applicants are not covered by the free legal aid scheme.

I appreciate that some Senators might be concerned about the somewhat cumbersome procedures which the Bill proposes, in particular, the need to involve both the Adoption Board and the High Court.

The Adoption Board are a quasi-judicial body established to make adoption orders in relation to applications about which there is no dispute or where the courts have ruled that an order may be made. The board do not, however, have the status to deal with such a fundamental issue as determining that natural parents have failed in their duties towards their child and that it would be proper to transfer parental rights and responsibilities for that child to another family. The High Court only can determine such an issue. On the other hand the only body with the necessary machinery to investigate the suitability of adoptive parents is the Adoption Board. For these reasons we have had to associate the powers and procedures of both the High Court and the Adoption Board in relation to the adoption of children to which the provision of this Bill relates.

It would, in my view, be preferable if we had a family court to deal, inter alia, with all aspects of proposed adoptions. If we had such a court it would avoid the need for the two applications envisaged in this legislation. I would hope that we would have such a specially constituted court in the future but for the moment we are restricted to the existing legal machinery.

I would now like to deal with the question of responsibility for costs arising from applications under the Bill. The court proceedings will involve costs. No fees are charged by the Adoption Board. The Bill circulated by the previous Administration in 1986 made no reference to costs. It relied on an administrative arrangement under which the Attorney General's office meets costs in disputed adoption cases where the court so recommends. Following publication of the 1986 Bill there was criticism by child care groups and adoptive parents of the failure to provide formally for costs. Deputy Shatter's Bill proposed an arrangment involving the payment by the Adoption Board of costs incurred by the proposed adoptive parents, though not the natural parents, in cases where the applicant acted in good faith and in the best interests of the child.

Having considered the matter carefully I think that the interests of natural parents, adoptive parents and taxpayers generally can best be served by the provisions that I have included in the present Bill. These are contained in subsections (4) and (5) of section 3 and envisage free legal aid being availed of, where they are eligible for it, by the applicants for the adoption order and by the natural parents. Where free legal aid is not provided the court may make on order for the payment of costs by the health board. As I have already said, applicants who initiate their own High Court proceedings under section 3 (1) (b) because the health board has declined to do so and who fail in their application will have to meet their own costs.

Another provision in the Bill to which I would like to draw attention is section 5 which defines a "child" for the purposes of adoption as any person under the age of 18 years. This definition will if the Bill is enacted, apply to all children being adopted and not merely those being brought in under the proposals in the Bill.

Under the present law the age limit for adoption is 21 years. The change now proposed will bring the position into line with the new age of majority — 18 years. A married person will be eligible as now, for adoption. Under the previous Administration's Bill married persons were excluded. In the light of representations made to me I consider that we should maintain the status quo. While the adoption of married persons under 18 is likely to be a rare event, I feel we should not rule it out, particularly since the proposals in this Bill will tend to make older children available for adoption. In a very small number of cases they may be married and may, for personal reasons, wish to consolidate their links through adoption with the family with which they grew up.

In considering the impact of the provision that I am now proposing, I would like to stress that our child care policy is unequivocally aimed at keeping families together. Nothing in this Bill will weaken that basic recognition of the standing and importance of the family in our society. The Bill offers no threat whatsoever to the generality of families. It is concerned only with situations where for all practical purposes the family as a unit has ceased to exist and where the child is being denied the right to grow up in a family setting. Children who are in care due to temporary family difficulties will not become subject to adoption. Neither is it the intention that parents who are selfish or indifferent to the needs of their children will be facilitated in handing their children over for adoption. Such an idea would be alien to our family traditions and values, although it is a feature of adoption practice in other countries.

I would like to make it perfectly clear, as Minister for Health, that my policy and that of my Department is that it is generally in the best interests of a child to be brought up in his or her own family. Nothing in our present policies or in these proposals diminishes that principle. Every thoughtful and informed person involved with the child care services recognises the incomparable benefits of a family unbringing.

The main thrust of future developments will therefore be to provide family support services which will prevent or diminish the need for parents to have to part with their children on either a short-term or long-term basis. Unfortunately, there are, and will continue to be, unhappy, abused and neglected children from inadequate and broken families with multiple problems. The State, representing our collective responsibility as citizens, has an obligation to seek a secure and happier future for such children.

The Bill is not intended in any way to deter families in genuine difficulty seeking to have their children cared for temporarily either in a residential setting or with a foster family. The proposed legislation will be appropriate only in a small number of cases where all hopes of reconciliation between a child and his parents have been lost. Where a child has no prospect of returning to his natural parents, his foster parents will now have an opportunity of offering the child integration within their own family. It will, I would stress, be a matter for the court to satisfy itself that there is no likelihood of the natural parents resuming their parental duties to the child.

The most recent statistics in respect of children in care which are available to me relate to the year ended 31 December, 1983. However, I have no reason to believe that any significant changes have occurred in the intervening period in the numbers involved. There were 2,534 children in care on 31 December, 1983. They were either in residential care, foster care or under supervision at home. Of these, 897 were illegitimate; the remaining 1,637 were either legitimate or extra-marital.

It is the aim and the experience of our child care services that the great majority of children in care will eventually be reunited with their parents as a result of changes in family circumstances or improved family services. However, some children will not be so fortunate. These are likely to be children who have been in care for a number of years. They may have been abandoned, neglected, physically or sexually abused or their families may have broken up altogether. Sadly, some such children are likely to be left in care permanently.

There were 439 children — 244 illegitimate, 174 legitimate and 21 extra marital — in long term foster care for five years or longer on 31 December 1983. Without a detailed investigation of each individual case I could not attempt to give a close estimate of the number of them likely to be suitable for adoption. However it is certain that some of these children would be in a position to secure a permanent, stable environment following the implementation of this legislation.

There are also children in residential homes who may benefit from the provisions of the new Bill. There were 332 children — 265 legitimate, 64 illegitimate and 3 extra-marital — in long term residential care for five years or longer on 31 December 1983 who were admitted because they had been abandoned, neglected, physically or sexually abused or came from one parent families unable to cope or from families affected by serious marital disharmony. The majority of children in long term residential care will, I would hope, be reunited with their parents. Some children who will not be reunited should eventually benefit by the provisions of this Bill. They will, of course, have to be transferred initially to foster care for a continuous period of 12 months before they can be considered for adoption.

I would stress that I am fully conscious that many parents have their children placed by health boards in care, either residential or foster care, because of emotional, financial and environmental difficulties often of a temporary nature. The solution to the difficulties of these families does not lie in supplying a second set of parents through the adoption process but rather in providing intensive support for the parents and children. I shall use every opportunity possible to strengthen the community care services despite the present financial restrictions on health spending. Furthermore, there are sufficient safeguards in the legislation now proposed to ensure that where there is a prospect of the family being reunited the children concerned will not be subject to adoption.

It is, however, an unavoidable fact that there is a certain number of children in care because they have been abandoned, ill-treated or neglected by parents who are most unlikely ever to seek their return. It is our duty to ensure that these children have an opportunity to benefit from a full and happy life in another family. I believe the public at large will so wish and I believe it would also be the wish of this House. I hope that this legislation will be seen by every person concerned with the practice of humanity as a further important step towards reducing the injustices and deprivations suffered by children such as these.

I commend the Bill to the House.

It gives me great pleasure, indeed, to welcome this Adoption (No. 2) Bill, 1987, to the Seanad. I would also like to commend the Minister for ensuring that legislation in this important area has followed so closely on Deputy Shatter's Private Members' Bill which was debated and voted down in Private Members' time in the Dáil recently. When one reads this Bill and sees its similarities with the other, it is easy to be frustrated at the nit-picking politics in our Parliament on social legislation and the regrettable non-acceptance of Private Members' Bills by the Government. These are automatically rejected, regardless of merit. This is not only very bad practice but a waste of valuable Oireachtas time and public money. There is, as I have said, no fundamental difference if one accepts a change in the matter of the section on legal costs between this Bill and the last one introduced into the Dáil. The differences could have been amended on Committee Stage of that Bill if it had continued its course.

Indeed, the cross-party support that was shown in the other House in favour of that Adoption Bill is reflected in the community and certainly among groups who know first hand about the problems of adoption, both the problems of children going for adoption and the problems of adoptive parents. These are the Federation of Services for Unmarried Parents and their Children, St. Anne's Adoption Society, the Association of Workers for Children in Care, the Irish Foster Care Association and the Adoptive Parents' Association. Although I welcome the Bill and I accept that it has come here very quickly, it has to be regretted that we have lost valuable time in proceeding with it. It will be difficult to make that up, given the long Dáil holidays, and I hope that as a result of the role of this House the Bill will be given high priority.

The aim of this legislation, as has been said, is to extend the categories of children who may be legally adopted. In particular it addresses the very important need to allow for the adoption of legitimate children whose parent or parents are still alive. It relates also to the position of a child whose parents are not married and the mother has not agreed to its placement for adoption. The care of foundling infants is one of the saddest aspects in this area. These are children who are left in wastepaper baskets, church porches or wherever. They will have to face a very uncertain future if it cannot be ascertained at the present time what their legal status is. I hope we will mark the year 1987 by bringing two important pieces of social legislation — the Status of Children Bill and the Adoption (No. 2) Bill — through both Houses of the Oireachtas.

I regret that in this Bill we again see the term "illegitimate" used. When drafting the final copy of the Status of Children Bill great care was taken to remove this expression from the body of the Bill. There was a great deal of comment in our debates in the Seanad during that time and the matter was pointed out again and again. I was pleased that I could follow the directions advised by Senators and eliminate from the final copy the word "illegitimate" or any substitute term which we had used initially in the drafting of the Bill. It is important that we address ourselves to the language used so that we can, as soon as possible, rid our vocabulary of the term "illegitimate" and be enabled to treat all children equally regardless of the marital status of their parents. I should like the Minister to indicate if it would be possible to amend the Bill in three or four places where the term "illegitimate" is used and to describe children as those whose parents were not married to each other. I accept that it is not possible to do this in every instance but in most cases it is.

It is helpful that the explanatory memorandum to this Bill incorporates information about the number of children likely to benefit from the legislation. The Minister said that on 31 December 1983 there were 2,534 children in care. I would like to ask a question about those statistics given that this is 1987 and records of matters like this must be readily available. Why do we have such dated statistics? Could we not have more up-to-date statistics than 1983? There were 2,500 children in care, either in residential care, foster care or under supervision at home in 1983. Of these, 897 were the children of parents who were not married to each other and the remaining 1,637 were either legitimate or extra-marital. By far the largest group are the 1,088 children in long term foster care. It is children from this group who will stand to benefit from the provisions of the new Bill.

The process to enable adoption under this Bill will be complex and difficult. The Minister has acknowledged this. At the end of the day it may only result in a handful of adoptions. The reason the Bill has to be so restrictive is due to the regulation in our Constitution of the rights and duties of married parents over their children. I wonder whether legislators, in five years time or later, will be back in these Houses seeking ways to make the adoption of legitimate children really meaningful and possible. Why can we not agree, across party, to change our Constitution where it is unnecessarily obstructive in areas such as this? I mean no offence to lawyers in this or in the other House when I say that legal practitioners tend to treat the Constitution and issues arising out of it like a piece of clay dough to be wrangled over, argued and pulled this way and that; too seldom is there a call either for downright transformation or for the Constitution to be rewritten. In this context I was interested to read an article by the former Attorney General, Mr. Rodgers, in which he says that there should be a constitutional convention or commission and that they should be drawn from an interdisciplinary group rather than from politicians. While politicians should not be totally excluded his suggestion is very worthy of consideration.

It is vital that this legislation will not be in conflict with the Constitution. Having read the three Bills — the one introduced by the former Minister for Health, Deputy Barry Desmond, the Private Members' Bill introduced by Deputy Alan Shatter and this Bill — I appreciate the care that has to be taken. Cognisance should be taken of the views expressed by Mr. Justice Walsh in the Supreme Court in the case of G.V. v. An Bord Uchtála. He said:

Where there is a complete abandonment of the parental right and duty, the State may be justified in taking measures by statute or otherwise to protect the rights of the child, these measures may include the enactment of adoption legislation.

This would seem to indicate that this legislation would withstand a challenge in the Supreme Court but the consequences of a negative finding if challenged in the future where an adoption would have been in place for some years would be so awful for parents and children that I propose that the Bill on passing all Stages in this House be referred to the Supreme Court by the President, pursuant to Article 26 of the Constitution, so that it could be tested and, we would hope, it be found constitutional and then serve with confidence for all time. We cannot afford to take risks with this Bill. I trust that this is the approach the Minister will adopt. If the Supreme Court find in favour the Bill could never again be challenged.

The most important aspects to be considered in the adoption process are the needs, the welfare and the future of the child. The question of how many deserving childless couples there are who could give a good home to a child ought not be the abiding consideration. Adoption is not about making childless couples happy though this is a pleasing and a worthy aspiration. It is about improving the quality of life for children who through no fault of their own are deprived of the love, care and security of family life.

One of the main groups dealing with single parents and their children are the Federation of Services for Unmarried Parents and Their Children. I have consulted with them about the provisions of this Bill. They had hoped for more comprehensive legislation given that in 15 years we have had many submissions, reports, consultations, reviews and findings all proposing the same reforms. While this Bill is welcome, they asked when we will have legislation embodying the numerous reasonable proposals of the excellent 1984 report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services. Outlined in the summary chapter of that report are reforms dealing with consent to adoption, reform of adoption agencies, setting up of an adoption court and the right to information by adopted people. The federation express disappointment with the requirement in this Bill that a child must be in the care of prospective adoptive parents for more than 12 months before they may be eligible for adoption. They feel this requirement will militate unfairly against a majority of children. A further reservation expressed to me by the federation is that parents of legitimate children cannot positively consent to the adoption of their children.

They instanced the case of parents of 11 children who had twins. These two extra children were creating an intolerable extra stress on the parents and on the rest of the children. Those parents felt that it would be in the children's best interest if they could give the two extra children up for adoption to a family in which they would get the security, the opportunities and the education they as natural parents could not provide. On the face of it, this might seem like a reasonable suggestion, but, in the long run, it might be open to abuse. I could well understand that the flip side of that could be that children would be bartered or given for reasons other than sincere ones expressed by this couple.

As the adoption review committee point out there are few areas in the field of human relationships that involve the same degree of heart searching and anguish and ultimately happiness as the adoption of a child. It affects those who are party to it in different but deeply felt ways. For some it means parting with a child for ever. For others it means gaining a child when the thought of having a child would have been almost totally ruled out by a couple. In the final analysis the life that will be most affected by these decisions will be that of the child.

I would like to refer to the issue of costs. This was one of the main differences between this Bill and the previous Bill. It is certainly treated differently in this Bill from Deputy Shatter's Bill. I was glad that the Minister, in his speech, spelled out the condition under which costs will be made and gave assurances, so far as he can, that no couple, no natural parent and no child will fail in their efforts to go through this process because of their financial situation. This would be extremely inequitable if it meant that only people who could afford the very high costs of High Court proceedings could go through with an adoption of a child under the provisions of this Bill.

I turn to two other areas which are not dealt with in the Bill and I take the opportunity to focus attention on them. The first one — and I regret the Minister is not present to take note — concerns Department of Health policy regarding children born prior to the Adoption Act, 1952. I became aware of the difficulties experienced by Irish people — we are talking about anybody who is 35 years or over — when I was Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach. I realise from numerous letters I received and representations made to me that the ad hoc arrangements, the totally unorthodox arrangements, that prevailed prior to the 1952 Act, which is the first time this area was regulated, were substantial. Indeed when we look at the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services we see that for the year 1953, which is the first year for which statistics are quoted in this report, the number of children born out of wedlock was 1,340. The figure is fairly constant for the years after that. We must think about the years prior to 1953. In 1951 and 1952 there would have been in the region of 1,300 children born out of wedlock. What has happened to these children? What is their status? This is something which has dogged me since I went into political life.

I have here some letters from people who were born prior to that time and do not know where they were born or who reared them. I suggest there are many children who were born at that time who were not registered. This is one thing that made an impact on me. It came through a mother who contacted me because she could not get a passport as there was no registration of her birth she had only a baptismal certificate. Despite my best efforts and those of some other Deputies at the time we found it impossible to get her a passport. There is no point in asking who is to blame. We are all to blame because we were so late in bringing in this social legislation.

We probably had a society similar to that described in Hugh Leonard's play "Da" or his book "Home Before Night" in which he describes his own beginnings. His parents were not his natural parents. He was "adopted". He described how his mother went to town in the tram and came home with a baby in her arms wrapped in a shawl. This was the way adoptions happened. I know of another case where a consultant had a private patient whose child was stillborn. Some other girl had a baby. The two were matched up and nobody really knew anything about it. Similarly many children went out of the country. We have a difficulty with people over 35 years of age who do not know what their origins were. I have been in touch with the Department and I am not satisfied that they have been able to help these people.

Another area I would like to refer to is the right to information. It is another area of queries which I have dealt with consistently. I have three letters which I received from England. The first is from Essex as follows:

Dear Mrs. Fennell,

Can you please help me? I was brought up in a convent in Athlone and have not been told anything about my background. I am 42 years now and I have grown-up children of my own and would very much like to be able to contact some organisation in Ireland or Dublin who can help me to find my family.

Another letter I received from Sheffield:

Dear Mrs. Fennell,

Would you please help me to try to locate any member of my family? I am married and have two children and would very much like them to know something of their background. I was born in a nursing home in 1942, April 4. I have no idea who my parents are. I am asking you to help me to locate——

She gives me the name of the person. Another letter is from Harrow:

I am 40 years old. I was born in Dublin on 3 March 1946. When I was one-and-a-half years old I was somehow sent out to a home in Sligo and adopted out to that home. In 1957 I was transferred to another home in Summerhill, Athlone, County Roscommon. At 16 years old I was sent out to work in a house. I have lived in London for 20 years for which I am very happy but the one thing that really bothers me day in and day out is who am I? I have been trying for the last 25 years to search for my family, but I now realise I have been led up the wrong path by various priests and nuns. You might think this is very strange of me to be seeking it at this age of my life but I want to find my family and I can assure you that not a day goes by that I do not ask myself who am I. I have no identity of my own. There is nothing I want in this world now only to know first hand about maybe my mother or father or an aunt or uncle. I would give anything to see faces or know names and to find my origin. I can promise you that I will not give up this search.

They are letters indicating the kind of anguish people can feel when they have this sort of dark area where they have no roots, no information, and they cannot find any information agency to help them. Perhaps the Minister in his reply would give me some indication as to what can be done for those people who were subject to these informal and ad hoc arrangements.

The other area which is not dealt with in the Bill but is one that we should do something about because it is causing concern and, in many instances, depression and affecting the quality of people's lives as adults is the right to information. I know it is a vexed question. There are only unsatisfactory responses to anybody who wants to know a little about his or her natural parents after legal adoption. In this instance I refer to adoptions after 1952. When adopted children want some basic information and ask for help to get it, they feel a bit guilty about it because they think they are betraying their adoptive parents who looked after them and whom they love. It is a very basic need of all of us to know about our roots and our background. I will put on the record the views and proposals in the 1984 report of The Review Committee on Adoption Services which I consider is one of the most splendid reports I have ever read. It is compulsive reading. I regret that many people do not know about it and perhaps this debate and the passing of this legislation through the House will get people to get it out of the library or to buy it and read it because it really is a very readable report. The report states in chapter 12, page 85 on the right to information:

12.2 The initial responsibility for helping the adopted child towards a knowledge and understanding of his background lies with the adoptive parents. All adopted children should be told that they are adopted. We are aware that some parents for well-intentioned but mistaken reasons do not do so. Few children can be so insulated against the world around them and from the gossip and comments of others that they will go through life without becoming aware of their adoption. Information received accidently, thrown at them as a jibe or given to them in an insensitive way at an age when their sensitivities have developed can do considerable psychological damage and harm relationships within their adoptive family. There are, regrettably, many examples of this happening. We would urge adoption agencies, if they need any urging, to emphasise to adoptive parents the importance of telling their children at an early age that they have been adopted and to offer help in doing it. No doubt some parents will find this a difficult talk but we would hope and expect that they should be in a position to get professional advice and guidance from the adoption agency.

12.3 The main difficulties in regard to the right of adopted children to more information about themselves will arise as they grow up and develop curiosity about their origins. Many adoptees will feel an inherent need for information about their beginnings; about where they were born; about what kind of persons their parents were; about the sort of relationships they had; about why they placed their child for adoption. This type of background information, if available, fills in fundamental facts about the individual's life, but, if not forthcoming, may leave a continuing void and a sense of lost indentity.

12.4 The adoption laws and procedures have, however, evolved on the basis of anonymity and confidentiality. In the early days it would appear that little, if any, consideration was given to the possibility that an adopted child might at a later stage in his life seek or be given information about his background as a matter of right. To a considerable extent, the present system has been based on the deliberate concealment of the origins of the child and particularly of the identity of his natural mother. This practice was shaped by prevailing views and attitudes and represented what was acceptable not only to the natural parents, but also to the adoptive parents and to the professionals in the field. It is reflected in the fact that few of the adoption societies have kept a proper record system and that many adopted persons now find great difficulty in getting any information about their background from the society that arranged their adoption.

12.5 The articulation by adopted persons of their needs has created an awareness of these needs. The softening of attitudes has led to a more sympathetic environment. It is now fairly widely accepted that if an adopted person seeks general information about his background, other than the identity of his natural parents, it should be given to him unless it is inappropriate, having regard to his age and understanding. We have no hesitation in commending that approach and in recommending that it should become normal practice to give non-identifying information to an adopted person. With that in mind, we have emphasised in an earlier recommendation that all adoption agencies should establish, and retain indefinitely, detailed information about the parentage and background of children placed for adoption.

12.6 Experience has shown that most of those who seek information about their origins will be satisfied to receive a general account of them and will not wish to delve further into their early history. Difficulties arise, however, when it comes to the issue of whether the adopted person, if he requests it, should be given information which would help him to identify his natural mother in particular. In practice, this means giving him access to his birth certificate. As we have already said, the present system has been based on the view that the anonymity of the natural mother should be preserved. The question which now arises is whether the adopted child should have an automatic right to the basic facts of his parentage or whether this should continue to depend largely on the discretion of his natural parent(s). There is not an easy answer and, despite considerable discussion, we have found ourselves divided in our views as to what changes should be made in the present practice.

12.7. The obvious answer might appear to be to adhere to the general principle cited at the beginning of this chapter, viz, that all children, adopted and natural, should have the same rights. Applying that principle in this instance would mean that the adopted person would have unquestioned entitlement to identifying facts about his parents irrespective of what their attitude towards giving this information might be. In support of applying that practice it could be argued that a right is a right; that it should not be denied or diluted out of consideration for others. Apart from the abstract issue of rights, there is the further consideration that it would be unjust and insensitive to insist that any individual should go through life with a sense of lost identity and, perhaps, an obsessive and unfulfilled curiosity about his natural parentage.

12.8 These considerations have been accepted as valid elsewhere. In Scotland, adopted persons of 17 years or over have had full access to their birth records since the introduction of legal adoption there in 1930. Adopted persons in England and Wales who have attained the age of 18 years have had a similar right since November, 1976 but those adopted before the enactment of the Children Act, 1975 are first required to undergo a counselling process. In Northern Ireland the Black Report——

Is the Senator still quoting from the book? Is she quoting the rest of the book?

No, I am not quoting the rest of the book. I feel that this chapter is terribly important.

Is the Senator quoting the whole chapter?

No, selective pieces from it.

I was going to ask Senator Fennell, for the record of the House, what she was quoting from when she had finished.

I gave the reference before I started and I think I gave the reason why it is important that this should be included in the record. As far as I know there are no proposals to change our law in line with the law in England and Scotland.

Could the Senator not have that in the form of an amendment?

Yes but the thinking——

You will have to continue, Senator Fennell. You might remember what Senator O'Connell said but you are entitled to go on.

Yes, I will take note of what Senator O'Connell says. It is always very interesting to look at what has happened in other countries, how they have dealt with these matters and what the results have been. The report continues:

Adopted persons in England and Wales who have attained the age of 18 years have had a similar right since November, 1976 but those adopted before the enactment of the Children Act, 1975 are first required to undergo a counselling process.... The Black committee was deeply divided on the question of retrospection. It is understood, however, that the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State responsible for Health and Social Services proposes to introduce amending legislation which will apply to all adoptees, past and future.

I will come to the recommendations if that will make Senator O'Connell happier.

I think his only concern was that you would read the whole book, Senator Fennell. He knows that you would not do that.

If he likes I will.

No, I do not think he wants you to.

He will not get in today if she does.

I will continue.

12.14 We have considered the various issues involved at some length but are unable to put forward unanimous recommendations. As regards future adoptions, a majority of us would favour the following arrangements:

(i) At the time of placement for adoption, natural parents should be informed that their child will have the right of access to his original birth certificate on reaching the age of eighteen. The natural parents would have their own wishes in this regard recorded but would not have a right to veto the child's access to the information. The agencies in recording these views should, in particular, include a reference to the mother's degree of understanding, e.g., whether she was of subnormal intelligence or very young at the time of making her decision.

(ii) A child who on reaching the age of 18 indicates his desire to obtain his birth certificate should first be seen by a counsellor from an adoption agency or other specialist child care agency. A particularly sensitive and mature counsellor would be required for this type of task and should be specially designated for it. The counsellor should be aware of the wishes of the parent(s) as recorded at the time of the adoption and it would be for his judgment to decide whether to inform the adopted person of these views. The adopted person, would, however, have an absolute right to obtain his original birth certificate.

12.15 A minority of members of the committee would not favour the proposals outlined in the preceding paragraph.

Therefore, we have a division of opinion on whether the adopted person — an adult — should have access to the official records such as a full birth certificate, and understand and know the origins of the parents.

While I welcome this Bill and commend the Minister for bringing it forward so quickly, it is only really scratching the surface. A whole range of proposals in this report have to be proceeded with now that we have started along that road because they are in many instances perhaps even more important than the provisions — many would say the limited provisions — for adoption in the present Bill.

I will try not to delay the time of this House, but I think that Senator Fennell——

In fairness to Senator Fennell and all my colleagues in the House, I understand that any Senator can quote for three hours if he or she wants to.

I also occupied that Chair and I can tell you that one is not allowed to quote in extenso, if I may say so.

Does the Senator realise he is in the Seanad now, not in the Dáil?

We are still in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

(Interruptions.)

I do not like these interruptions.

The Senator read out 1,500 words in quoting that chapter. I say that only to indicate that I do not think we should delay the House unnecessarily about a Bill which is not very controversial. Senator Fennell said it originated with the last Government. Indeed, the good member of her party, Deputy Alan Shatter, was instrumental in bringing this out and I would be the first to congratulate him on his enlightened thinking on it. I congratulate the last Government on their enlightenment in wanting to bring in legislation of this type. It does not matter whom it comes from, I offer my congratulations to them and I congratulate the Minister on taking it up and bringing it into this House. It is a great measure because it represents a milestone in social legislation on child care and I hope it will be followed shortly by further enlightened legislation, so we will have a comprehensive range of child care services which are long overdue. The reform of our adoption laws is long overdue and, as the Minister said, Ireland is the only country in Europe where children born legitimately and whose parents are alive are unadoptable.

It is a serious indictment on all of us, especially when we claim to be an enlightened society, that what we are proposing in this House today was enacted almost 60 years ago by our neighbours in Northern Ireland. Of course, adoption and all it represented was something we were loath to discuss openly. Indeed, our record in this area leaves a great deal to be desired, bound up as it was in religious prejudice, bigotry and social taboos. Then, we must realise that adoption was merely a legal device for tackling the twin problems of illegitimacy and infertility. We never looked upon it as a means of meeting the social and emotional needs of children requiring substitute families. Therefore, it is refreshing to see this Bill being introduced by the Minister for Health which emphasises again a more enlightened thinking on the function of adoption.

We would all agree that this Bill is a positive response to the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services. We all know that that committee recommended unanimously that a change in the law was necessary to permit the adoption of all those children deprived of a normal, stable family, irrespective of the marital status of their parents.

I hope there are adequate safeguards in the Bill to protect the rights of natural parents but I have doubts in that regard. In a recent case in Britain the natural parents lost their child. They had their case before the European Court of Human Rights two weeks ago and the court found in their favour. However, unfortunately, a travesty of justice had occurred and their child had been taken away and legally adopted and they have no redress, even though they were proved to be good, proper parents. I recognise that the rights of the child transcend all other rights, and where it is clearly evident that the parents have failed in their duty to the child and will continue to fail in their duty, facilities must be provided for adoption. Who in conscience would want to see a child subjected to the emotional trauma of such a situation when so many families are eager, willing and more than anxious to take over the role of providing the loving and emotional care that is needed?

The reservation I have is in regard to where the natural parents might be intellectually unable to state their case before a court and in the process the child is taken from them. This can happen very easily. I have seen it in other areas. The Constitution provides that when the parents have failed to do that the State can move in. I know of a case which concerns the right of a mother to educate her own child. Because we have a so-called social worker moving in from the Department of Education and saying that she is not a fit mother, that she is not capable of educating her, they want to take that child away. The child will be 14 in August and the mother wants to educate her for a particular reason. She wants to undertake the continuing education of that child and she is being denied that right by a so called social worker who has harassed, badgered and beset her and is determined that that child will be taken before the court. I wonder what the court will decide, where it will put the child. We have social workers who are badly, improperly and poorly trained and inexperienced who arrogate to themselves the right to make decisions affecting the livelihood and future of children. This is a serious matter.

That is a very objectionable statement.

I do not care what objection the Senator has. I am stating it now clearly because in my position as a doctor I have come across such cases too often, where they are wrongly, improperly, inadequately trained and totally inexperienced, taking on work which requires sensitivity and very delicate care, and are not carrying out their work with the required sensitivity. Getting a diploma in a university does not give a person the experience required. I want to make that clear to the Senator and to this House.

I would like to see proper training, and proper attachment of these people to their work. We must ensure that they are properly trained before they do this work. I say this in the interests of those people whom they are supposed to help. That is why I referred to the recent case in Britain where the child was taken from the natural parents and sent for adoption. It was finally realised by legal friends of the parents that the case should go to Europe. They won the case but they lost their child. Therefore I would enter a caveat against the employment of inexperienced, poorly trained social workers in such a field.

The Bill as it stands appears to provide adequate safeguards against abuse. It permits adoption in certain severely restricted circumstances. I join with Senator Fennell in asking that it be referred immediately to the courts to decide on its constitutionality. It would be tragic if after the adoption of a child the case was challenged in the court. One can imagine the trauma both for the adoptive parents and for the child if the legislation were declared ultra vires the Constitution. Where the prospect of reuniting the natural parents and their child exists every effort must be made to ensure that is done. I would not like to see a child taken from a parent.

In some cases a mother may have emotional, financial or environmental problems and difficulties which may be only temporary but may be of a recurrent nature. We all know that post-natal depression need not necessarily end in six or eight weeks. It can recur and can be cyclic in nature. An inexperienced social worker not knowing the medical aspect of the case may make a firm, unequivocal decison which could adversely affect the child. We must ensure that decisions will not be made by such people that would jeopardise natural family reunion. That is why I enter that caveat. We must ensure, as the Minister said, that there is intensive support for parents and children in such a situation, the first priority being to ensure that the natural parents are united with their children.

I was interested to hear some case histories presented by Senator Fennell. I came across cases by the hundred where illegitimate children were registered as legitimate children — where a daughter has a child, it is registered as the child of the mother. The reason for this is that people are embarrassed by the situation. There are many cases where a girl's daughter is registered as her sister. The fact that the social stigma of illegitimacy is gone and that single parents are retaining their children is a good point and I agree with it.

There are many cases where registration did not take place and this presented problems. It is a tribute to the Department of Justice that they are always most helpful in such situations. They will go to no end of trouble to help. Different Ministers for Justice whom I have approached have always been very sympathetic to such cases. They can be resolved, and I say that for the benefit of Senator Fennell and others. Many people who have no birth certificates have come to me and the Minister for Justice and his Department do everything to help. Once statements are received from friends they always issue a certificate or a statement. I had many cases solved in that way by successive Ministers for Justice who have always been very helpful.

I like the enlightened thinking behind the Bill and the fact that it has come from the Minister for Health. I hope it will be followed by more enlightened social legislation in the field of child care and I welcome it. However, I join with Senator Fennell in asking that when it is passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, it be referred to the Supreme Court to test its constitutionality.

I dtús báire be mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil comhchoiste den Teach seo go bhfuil sé mar aidhm acu úsáid na Gaeilge in obair an Oireachtais a chur chun cinn. Tá sé fíor-dheacair orainne a dhéanann iarracht anois agus arís ár gcuid oibre a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge é sin a dhéanamh nuair nach bhfuil leagan Gaeilge de Bhillí ar fáil. Tá Bille anseo againn atá an-chasta, an-teicniúil. Tá sé deacair go leor é a mhiniú do dhuine nó díospóireacht a bheith air nuair atá sé trí Bhéarla. Bhí ar intinn agam caint a dhéanamh ar an mBille seo trí Ghaeilge ach toisc nach raibh leagan Gaeilge den Bhille ar fáil is deacair é sin a dhéanamh. Dá bhrí sin caithfidh mé an córas ar fad a cháineadh. Tá foireann aistriúcháin san Oireachtas agus ba chóir go mbeadh go leor daoine ansan chun leagan Gaeilge de Bhillí a chur an fáil dúinn.

Before Senator O'Connell leaves I would like to refer to the point about social workers being inexperienced and insensitive. That may well be so in isolated cases and I accept his good intentions in making the case. However, it appears from what Senator O'Connell said that social workers are being swept off the face of the earth. He knows, as I do, that they are an overworked group of people who work under very stressful conditions. I am not saying they do not make mistakes. We are all in professions in which we make mistakes and regret them in one way or another but the record should be put right — and I am not having a go at Ministers in saying this. Cutbacks in the whole system have meant that the social workers have not had the opportunity of gaining the experience which would make them better at this job. I accept the Senator's point but I would like the record to be put straight, that social workers are in the main overworked and well-intentioned.

Before we heard of cutbacks, appalling mistakes were made.

I will leave the record like that. Chun dul thar n-ais don Bhille, tá an-ghá leis agus caithfear é a reachtáil. Faoi láthair, ní féidir a chur chun uchtáil ach iadsan atá neamhdhlisteanach — agus is fuath liom an focal sin — nó iad san atá tréigthe — foundling, mar a deirtear. Níl sé sin leathan go leor agus caithfear feabhas a chun air sin.

Gan aon amhras caithfear cead a fháil dhá uair anois ó mháthair an linbh sar a ndéantar uchtáil. Ar an gcéad dul síos caithfear cead a fháil ón mháthair chun é a chur chun uchtála, agus in a dhiaidh san, nuair atá teaglach nó áit faighte don leanbh caithfear cead a fháil arís ón mháthair. Is dócha gurb í an fhadhb is mó san Acht atá ann faoi láthair ná nach féidir a chur chun uchtála leannaí nó páista go bhfuil a dtuismitheoirí fós in a mbeatha. Ní féidir a chur chun uchtála leanbh nó páiste atá neamhdhlisteanach agus nach bhfuil a máthair sásta go n-uchtálfaí iad. Arís ní féidir a chur chun uchtála leanbh nó páiste nch bhfuil tásc ná tuairisc ar a máthair.

Níl sé sin sásúil agus is breá liom go bhfuil tosach déanta ag an Aire leis an mBille ata os ár gcomhair. Ma a dúirt an Seanadóir O'Connell agus an Seanadóir Fennell, seo an t-aon tír fágtha san Eoraip nach féidir leannaí dhlisteanacha a chur chun uchtála, agus is é sin an scéal i dtuaisceart na hEireann, gur féidir leannaí dhlisteanacha a chur chun uchtála ó 1929 i leith.

Faoin Bhille seo tá sé ar intinn ag an Rialtas agus ag an Roinn Sláinte i gcásanna airithe agus tar éis na coinníollacha is géire a chomhlíonadh athrú a dhéanamh ar an gcóras. Tá sé anois i gceist go ndéanfaí uchtáil a leith leannaí dhlisteanacha a bhfuil a dtuismitheoirí in a mbeatha agus leannaí neamh-dhlisteanacha nach bhfuil a máthair sásta cead uchtála a thabhairt, ach caithfidh mé a rá arís agus béim a chur air nach féidir é sin a dhéanamh ach tar éis na coiníollacha is déine a chornhliónadh.

Is iad na coinníollacha sin ná gur theip ar na tuismitheoirí in a gcúram don pháiste ar feadh bliana ar a laghad roimh an dáta agus gur dócha nach mbeadh feabhas ar an scéal don pháiste sar a mbainfeadh an leanbh aois 18 amach. An rud is tábhachtaí faoin méid sin ná go mbeadh faoin Ard-Chúirt an bhreith gur theip na tuismitheoirí in a gcúram. Creidim féin go bhfuil go leor ansan chun ceart an linbh a bheith sabháilte.

In introducing this Bill the Minister has proved very progressive because it is most welcome, important and caring legislation. I accept his intention and his commitment. I listened to the foiling across both sides of the House as to who brought it in first or why some person did not support somebody else's motion. Let us have a non-partisan discussion on this issue as nobody wants to make political gain out of it.

The tone of the debate so far has been caring and responsible. This is important legislation and I take it that the Government in introducing it in the Seanad did so with the best of intentions in regard to hearing Senators' views and that there will only be minor changes. I do not think that people can object to this Bill in any major way. I hope some of my suggestions will be taken on board by the Department. I am sorry the Minister is not here but I hope he will——

The Minister is meeting a trade union delegation.

I was aware of that. He could not be in a better place.

I thought you would be delighted to hear where he was.

I know where he was and I commend him for being there.

An féidir liom a rá go mbeidh a fhios ag an Aire gach rud atá á rá ag an Seanadóir. Cuirfidh mise in iúl dó.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. Ní dom féin atá mé ag caint ach do dhaoine eile atá ag brath, b'fhéidir ar athruithe beaga ar an mBille seo.

I will be putting forward minor proposals for amendment with the best possible goodwill. I am not putting them forward in the hope that they will be accepted but that their content could be considered. That is what the Seanad is for and I hope we will not be presented with a fait accompli. The Minister assured me earlier that he is here to listen and to consider the ideas put forward.

There is a long Irish tradition of fosterage. In the Aire Stáit's own county, was it Aodh Rua Ó Domhnaill who came to a bad end through fosterage? In the checks and balances of legislation I hope that the rights of the individuals will be looked after, most importantly within the common good. It is never easy to do that and nobody is ever happy. I would worry if legislation pleased everybody because I do not think it is possible to meet everybody's needs at the one time and one has to look after the common good in looking at the rights of the individual. However, we must be conscious of individual problems and of the fact that in legislation like this there will be many cases which cannot be dealt with in the mainstream and the main thrust of the Bill. Therefore, there should be a certain amount of flexibility, particularly relating to the type of people who would be eligible to adopt.

In regard to adoption, the one issue we must keep before our minds all the time — there is no argument or doubt about this — is the welfare of the child, which must be the main criterion by which we decide whether an adoption should go ahead. The happiness of the child is paramount and if, as often happens, the price of achieving that happiness is heart searching, sadness, or the pain or stress on adults, so be it. That is the way it has to be. The child must, undoubtedly, come first in this complex legislation. I do not claim to be an expert in the area but I have tried to do my homework, to talk to people involved and to examine cases. New legislation should be flexible and sensitive in terms of family life and social structures. It is a completely new world from that of 1952 when the Principal Act was enacted. People have different values nowadays which should be considered in proposed legislation. There are certainly new family structures even in the most basic ways relating to the size of families. I have five children which is considered a huge family nowadays — it is in terms of feeding them and providing a car big enough to transport them — but in 1952 it was not considered a huge family. Nowadays 2.2 or indeed 1.8 is the normal family size. The idea that a happy childhood meant being part of a large family has changed and nowadays we just talk about a child in a family.

Legislation must be flexible enough to respond to new beliefs and new attitudes. I believe this is the general direction of the provisions of the Bill. I hope those provisions will go a little further in one or two specific areas. As well as being flexible the provisions should also be very sensitive to the pressures of society, to the pressures on young people, on adults, on children, sensitive to the psychological needs and emotional needs of children and indeed their needs for stability. Above all, the adoption laws should be compassionate. That must be the key word, that there must be compassion shown and for the benefit of the child.

The balance should always fall in favour of the child or the young person to be adopted. The law should aim at making adoption available to all who might not have a permanent home, or to all who might not have the benefit of stable relationships. This point was touched on by other speakers today and we cannot repeat it too often. People or children who do not have a permanent home or stable relationships in a permanent home should be the target group. The law must adapt to the child's interests and needs, taking them on board in the most comprehensive and thorough manner.

In normal circumstances, in the majority of circumstances, the traditional family setting is by far the best for adoption purposes. Having said that, the provisions of the Bill must be sufficiently wide and progressive to take on board other circumstances or structures. I would really make an appeal to the Minister on that point. We must preserve the right of all parties, the rights of the child, the rights of the mother and the rights of the adoptive parents. Under the present legislation children eligible for adoption are a small group. I must refer also to the excellent publication —Adoption: Report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services.

I want to make a comment on one narrow area, that is, the eligibility of children for adoption. In my view all children should be eligible for adoption. We are moving in that direction in this Bill and I welcome that movement. I also would like to refer to something not excluded from the Bill — although I am not sure how it should be dealt with — that is, the reference in the report to the need to try to secure the adoption of children with disabilities. I happen to know of cases where children with very mild disabilities have been adopted which has caused no problem whatsoever. Indeed many people would contend that there is far more love in that kind of relationship and far more emotional response to a child's needs generally in that kind of relationship. I would plead that their cause would be taken on board. I wanted to highlight that point which may not have been referred to by other speakers.

In seeking adoptive parents the norm should be couples, married couples in a traditional family setting. That is the best setting in which to place children; there can be no doubt about that. I have read much peripheral material and argument in this area but I adhere to that view. It saddens me to note that the adoption law has been used time and again to sort of circumvent the difficulties that arise from the status of illegitimacy. I will not labour the point of illegitimacy. In the fourth paragraph of the Proclamation of the Republic there was included the words: "cherishing all the children of the nation equally". Regrettably those words were not written into the Constitution. It always amuses me to hear people quote that line as being contained in the Constitution when we know it is not. It is in the Proclamation of the Republic. It is one part of that Proclamation — indeed there are many others — which I would like to see written into our Constitution. The concept of illegitimacy would be incompatible with that statement of intent. To contend that an innocent child, who could not be held responsible for the circumstances of his or her birth should suffer because of the marital status of his or her parents is a statement with which I have always had intense difficulty. I honestly believe that we should endeavour to abolish that stigma. What happens at present is that, in many cases — because of the adoption law obtaining under whose provisions a natural mother can adopt her own child within six months of birth — adoption is very often done for the wrong reasons. It is being done only for the reason of removing the taint or stigma of illegitimacy from children and all that goes with it.

I should like to develop somewhat the age factor. I have heard of cases where people have been refused adoption orders because of their age. We hear much about sexism and racism but there is such a thing as "ageism" as well. It is not because I am approaching my 40th birthday in the next couple of days that I am conscious of this.

I would never have guessed.

Thank you, a Chathaoirleach. I could do with such comments. It seems to me that we should be very circumspect and slow to rule out adoption because people are of a particular age. Either prospective adoptive parents are suitable or they are not. Of course there is a time when people would be too old. I should like an assurance from the Minister and his Department that we are not talking here about hard set age limits which are immutable. That would be wrong. I do not believe that to be the intention of the Bill. It goes back to my earlier point on the question of flexibility.

In order to illustrate one of the problem areas for me in the Bill I should like to relate to the House the true story of a person who will be very concerned about the provisions of this Bill whose circumstances are not covered or met by them. I speak of a woman who got married in 1982, who does not have and will not have a family of her own. In the very early period of her marriage a child was placed with her privately. The natural mother of this child was a woman who had fallen on fairly hard times, who rejected the child and saw an opportunity of placing the child in a good, caring setting or home, which is what it turned out to be. This child was placed privately in 1982. Within a short period of time that so-called foster mother's marriage broke down for the kind of reasons I do not really want to go into save to comment that the woman suffered physically as well as in other ways. That woman is now separated. Her husband has been sentenced to a long term in jail and will not be on the scene. The child was placed with her when the child was only six days old and she has raised that child. She has had visits from social workers and from representative of all the other organs of State that would be involved or responsible for a growing child — medical people as well. There is not the slightest doubt about the fact that the child has been well cared for or that there is a very strong bond or relationship between them but there are legal difficulties. Because of the legislation obtaining that child cannot be adopted by that woman. They have lived together as mother and daughter for the last six or seven years. The child is now attending school and the school authorities treat the woman as the mother of the child. They know the factual situation. The woman did make an attempt herself to adopt the child in 1983. She was refused on the grounds that it was against the law, for no reason other than that the law could not take her case on board. Later on in that year, 1983, she went to court and got and still has custody of the child.

This woman gave evidence to the review committee and that committee made a recommendation which I will deal with in a moment. I just want to say as an addendum to that story that the relationship between that woman and the child — although the woman would not admit it — must suffer as a result of the insecurity of the relationship. There is no danger of the relationship breaking down, there is no danger of the State pulling the child out of the very caring family situation she is in, but, at the same time, the woman cannot formalise the relationship. The child has a different name from hers, with all the attendant problems, and the child is illegitimate as far as the law is concerned. How do we solve a problem like that?

The case got publicity some years back and when the natural mother read the story in the papers she contacted this woman and told her that if the child was taken from her she would as the natural mother, demand the child back and would give the child back to her. In a sense, that reassured her to some extent but it is not an acceptable situation and I do not think anybody would accept that it is.

We are talking here about a six or seven year old child in senior infants or first class in a primary school, in a loving, caring relationship, the only home she has ever known. The legislation should be big enough and flexible enough to rationalise that situation. We cannot legislate for everything. It is bad law to legislate for an individual case but it is a good procedure to allow for flexibility in very severely restricted circumstances.

It is very hard to put into words what is involved here for people, but we can build in all the conditions that are necessary to prevent abuse. Where a relationship exists, where there is an existing bond between the person seeking to adopt and the child to be adopted, where the adoption board or agency are certain that it is to the benefit of the child and where the natural mother supports the arrangement and the adoption, the case is well founded. You could not go beyond those three fail-safe conditions. With such built-in conditions or pre-conditions it seems there is a very strong case to be made for a married but separated person to seek to have an adoption order granted. I know it is a major move forward.

Under the present legislation there are certain categories such a natural mother and a widow who can adopt. The wording that is used in the Bill is that there can be a single application from a married person for adoption. There is already room for manoeuvre there. I ask that that would be taken on board. When this matter was discussed by the review committee they gave it very serious consideration. Their conclusion, and that I certainly stand by, is that the best arrangement for an adoption is a traditional family setting. I will not move from that point. I certainly think that is the best arrangements, except in exceptional circumstances.

Paragraphs 4.11 and 4.12 of the report of the review committee — show the development of their views, having considered this kind of case, indeed having considered the case I referred to briefly. The conclusion they came to is that contrary to the popular view children requiring adoptive families are not necessarily the small babies of unmarried mothers. There can be many others as well and because of the variety of circumstances it would be wrong to adhere strictly to the principle that all adoptive parents should be married couples. That is the point I am making. Whereas in the natural run of events it is the best arrangement, we should not be tied into it completely. There are exceptional instances when we must move outside that again, where it is to the benefit of the child, where there is an existing bond, where the natural mother agrees to it and where the adoption agency are supportive of it.

The report states:

While we have stated earlier our view that such should be the normal arrangements, we would be equally concerned to ensure a flexibility in the system which would allow a single person to adopt if this were in the best interests of the child.

To me this must permeate through the Bill all the way — the interests of the child — this must be paramount at every single step. If the adoption agency or board are not clear in their minds that it is in the best interests of the child, to me it is non-starter. Where they are, they should have the flexibility. They go on to say:

We would, nevertheless expect that it would be unusual for a single person to be considered as an adoptive parent if an equally suitable married couple were willing and available to adopt the child.

That does not meet the needs of the case that I was referring to a while ago. They go on to recommend that a single person should, in exceptional circumstances, be eligible for consideration as an adoptive parent. That would extend the range of eligibility of single persons which at the moment is restricted to the mother, the natural father, widows and certain widowers.

In certain exceptional circumstances an adoption order for a married person who happens to be separated should not be prohibited. I will be putting down an amendment to cover that area but it is not my amendment that I am interested in or worried about. I am interested that the idea would be taken on board by the Minister to show flexibility and, above all, compassion. We are talking here about the future of a child. This kind of case would be extremely exceptional. I would plead that it should be an amendment that would be considered very seriously by the Department and the Minister would perhaps be in a position to say he would accept this, or a similar type of wording. It is my final plea that we should show flexibility. This is what the Seanad is for.

The introduction of this Bill in the Seanad is a perfect example of some of the unnecessary time wasting and perhaps political posturing that too often takes place in politics and perhaps in the enactment of legislation. The Government got an ideal opportunity, and it has been referred to earlier, to ensure the speedier passage of this important legislation through the Houses of the Oireachtas when Deputy Shatter introduced the Adoption Bill, 1987 as a Private Members' Bill. It seems strange, but I suppose it is part of the political process, that the Government decided to vote down the measure on that occasion. Yet, a mere nine weeks later they seek to introduce the exact same Bill to Seanad Éireann. It is appropriate that we appeal for more maturity in the affairs of the Oireachtas in this regard rather than act as children playing ludo. I regret that this type of political manoeuvring is now an established practice and I admit that all political parties are guilty of it, unfortunately. It does not enhance parliamentary democracy to have this type of carry-on become a feature of the House, nor does it help to resolve our many problems, particularly in the Bill confronting us today, the Adoption Bill.

I was disappointed that no copies of the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services which was published in May 1984 were available when I went to research my speech on this Bill. I am pleased that Senator Fennell took the opportunity to read most of the important sections of that report into the record of the House, particularly for the benefit of Senator O'Connell. I know most of the Senators will now have an ideal opportunity to read the committee's report in the Seanad Official Report. I will benefit from that as well as every other Senator. It is important that sufficient copies of these reports are made available, particularly for the newer Senators who would not have had the benefit outgoing Senators had of getting these reports from the various agencies as they became available.

The adoption of children is governed by the Adoption Acts, 1952 and 1976. The Minister said that under these Acts an adoption order can be made only in respect of a child who is an orphan, who is illegitimate, or who has been legitimated by the marriage of his or her parents after his or her birth but whose birth has not been re-registered. A child's mother, guardian, or any person having control over him or her must consent to his or her adoption. In the case of a legitimated child whose birth has not been re-registered the consent of both the mother and father is required. There must be an initial agreement to place the child for adoption and subsequent consent must be given to the making of an adoption order after a child has been placed with prospective adoptive parents before the adoption boards can make such an order. Children who are not eligible for adoption presently are a legitimate child with a parent or parents alive, an illegitimate child whose mother has not agreed to its placement for adoption, or a foundling infant where it cannot be established that such an infant is illegitimate.

Those are the areas of concern in the Bill and it is ludicrous to suggest that, in a so-called Christian country like Ireland, a child's eligibility for adoption should be determined on the basis of the marital status of the parents. Unfortunately, there are children in the care of the health boards and religious and voluntary organisations who have never experienced the happiness of growing up in a stable home environment with legal security. Nevertheless, these children are born legitimately with a parent or parents alive but whose circumstances are such that they need other "parents". The enactment of this legislation will redress the situation and help provide those children with an effective and integrated family environment.

The motivation and necessity for this Bill arise mainly from the work of the Review Committee on Adoption Services. It is noteworthy that the members of this committee consisted of a cross-section of persons involved with children in care, the adoption services, health administrators, social workers, an adoptive parent, legal experts, a child psychiatrist and a priest. Accordingly I submit that there is agreement across a broad spectrum of people that the law should be amended to allow the adoption of legitimate children in certain severely restricted circumstances — a child with a parent or parents alive, or an illegitimate child whose mother has not agreed to its placement for adoption.

There must be sufficient time given to ensure bona fide applications for adoption and ample evidence must be provided that proper parental duty has not been carried out in respect of that child. The emphasis and law must favour the child who is not in a position to do anything to rectify his or her own problems. If we are a compassionate society we will seek to ensure that stability is provided for the child and above all that this new legal status is recognised by the State. After all, we are speaking about children whose parents have failed to carry out their duties properly and it is reasonable to allow other people the opportunity to take up the challenge of providing proper care and attention for the child. Applicants for the child must satisfy the adoption board and the High Court as to the suitability of the adoptive parents. The procedure to enact an adoption order is outlined in the Bill and I do not propose to go into this in detail.

Various references have been made in the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services to the constitutional implications of the Bill. I urge, as has been suggested in the report, an immediate referral of the Bill when enacted, to the Supreme Court to ensure that we are safeguarded on the parental side and on the child's side and to ensure the constitutionality of the Bill once and for all. The adoptive parents and the child must be protected absolutely in a legal way. Deputy Shatter referred to this in the other House and he called also for the immediate referral to the Supreme Court of the Bill to determine its constitutionality.

As a community we have always sought to place great importance on strengthening the family and, if we are serious about this as we are often hypocritical when it comes to these matters, we must resolve to help children to grow up in a natural and stable environment. The Bill deals with the exceptions to the rule and, at most, we are speaking about 1,000 children who are presently in care. I welcome the section that provides for legal costs incurred by applicants for adoption. Accordingly, there is no risk of incurring large and unnecessary legal expenses to having to seek a High Court authorisation to complete the adoption process. Again I urge the Minister to consider the establishment of family courts or tribunals to deal with legislation in the family law area. The sensitive nature of the cases and the professional advice that is so essential to make appropriate and good decisions cannot take place under the present court structure. I am extremely concerned at the amount of legislation that is finding its way to the High Court and the unnecessary tardiness in coming to decisions because of the high work load.

The Minister for Health stated that it is desirable that the health board should have the power to decline an application to the High Court even if the application is approved by the adoption board. Applications should go directly from the adoption board to the High Court or family court where possible. We are creating an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy yet again to arrive at a decision and all we are doing in the meantime is frustrating applicants for the adoption and not assisting the child. I agree with Senator O'Toole that the benefit of the child must be our first priority and holding up the process by putting applications from the adoption board to the health board, to the High Court is frustrating that exercise.

I do not accept that applicants must bear the full cost of applications to the High Court if they insist on going ahead with their cases in spite of a health board refusal. This shows that we are not enacting this legislation to cherish children equally. I urge the Minister to consider the establishment of family courts as suggested by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Marriage Breakdown. In this way all applications under the adoption Bill will be given fair, considered and urgent attention for the sake of giving the child a strong, stable family environment as quickly as possible.

I hope our traditional pang of outcry against progressive social legislation will not raise its ugly head during the passage of this Bill. It is a shame that we are the only country in western Europe where legitimately born children with a parent or parents alive cannot be adopted. I welcome the opportunity to support these legislative proposals and to eliminate that situation once and for all.

I would like to thank the Minister for bringing this Bill before the House today. I would like to thank the former Minister for Health, Deputy Barry Desmond for his Bill and Deputy Alan Shatter for his Bill. The report of the review committee, who were set up under the direction of Deputy Desmond, is an excellent one. The report has made a wonderful contribution to this very important area in Irish life. For a number of years before I was elected to this House I had an interest in adoption work. I would like to reflect for a few moments on the situation prior to 1952. We always had adoption in this country but it was only in 1952 that we had legal adoption. Adoption meant that unmarried mothers placed their children, often very successfully and very happily, with adoptive parents. These adoptive parents lived in fear from day to day in case the natural mother would come back and claim her child. She had every right to do so because the adoptive parents had no protection whatsoever under the law.

Prior to 1952 there was also the added problem that when people adopted children there was no mechanism for changing the child's name to their name. That led to horrific complications. It was only when the Adoption Act, 1952, a very enlightened Act, was introduced that for the first time there was protection for the adoptive parents and a mechanism also for the change from the natural parent's name to the adoptive parents name. In doing that the State provided for a special register to be kept which was known as the adoption register. There was also a responsibility on adoption societies to provide the necessary information to the registrar general of the natural mother of the child. That is kept in a secret register which is only for the use of the registrar.

At a later date, I think it was about 1956, the Churches adopted a similar principle and amended their registers in accordance with what was being done by An Bord Uchtála. I mention this because Senator Fennell referred to the right to information. I understand the arguments made on behalf of adopted children for the right to information of their natural parents. As I understand it, most children are adopted at a very young age, probably in the first few weeks of birth, and they form part of a natural family. While I think it is most important that they are told at an early age they had been adopted, the happiness and security of the family remove from them this urge to find out who their natural parents were. I recall dealing with adoptive parents who were wondering how they would break the news to their child that he was adopted. They explained on his seventh birthday that they had gone along to a nursing home where there was a large number of small babies and had selected him because he was the prettiest. That was the best way they could explain it to the child. The child gave a lovely response. He said: "Mum and Dad you were very good to pick me out from all those children". That ended the discussion. They told the child he was adopted and I think he was happy from then on with that information.

On the question of information there is a divided view. Even in the excellent report we have before us today, the review committees report, there are different views in this area. While I think the majority are in favour of making the information available, there is a minority against it. The Black report, to which Senator Fennell referred, was also divided on the issue. This is an important issue which should be given some thought. The views of the natural parents should be taken into account also in deciding on this issue.

I would like to pay tribute to the people who have participated since 1952 in the workings of our adoption laws. First, I pay tribute to the Adoption Board for the way they have carried out their duties. Second, I pay tribute to the generous and efficient adoption societies who have as their priority the happiness of and the placing of children. Many of these were religiously orientated and they did an excellent job. Third, I pay tribute to the number of generous people in our society who have adopted children and given them wonderful homes and happiness.

I would like to refer to one section of the report. It is one area where progress has been made but in which I would like to see further progress. This relates to the adoption of children with disabilities. Paragraph 3.12 of the report states:

No homeless child should be regarded as unsuitable for integration into permanent family life simply by reason of the fact that he is in some way handicapped. Children in care with physical, mental or behavioural disabilities may have special needs which can often best be served by providing them with a permanent home through adoption. Not all prospective adoptive parents will be fitted for the role of caring for such a child; a special commitment is required. We are aware, however, that many such adoptions have been beneficial to the children and rewarding to the parents. In view of the large number of children with handicaps, some relatively minor, now in institutions throughout the country, we would urge that an even greater effort be made by health boards and voluntary organisations concerned to secure adoptive parents for those for whom adoption would be a suitable alternative.

I believe a number of Irish people have responded and have adopted children with disabilities. Married people with children of their own are the most generous of all. They extend their families by adopting children who, in some cases, are suffering from handicaps or disabilities.

Since the introduction of the first Adoption Act in 1952 there have been a number of amending Acts in 1964, 1974, 1976 and 1979. Many of these amending Acts were required because of decisions made by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court found certain defects, as cases came before it, in the Principal Act and the Acts have been amended accordingly.

Over the past 30 years we have moved a great distance from the situation prior to 1952 when there were no legal adoption provisions to the stage we have reached today. We are now introducing a Bill for the first time which will give children, who prior to this have been excluded from legal adoption, the right to be adopted. I subscribe to Senator Fennell's view on the wording, "an illegitimate child". I do not like using the words "legitimate" or "illegitimate". I prefer the term "born outside wedlock". Children who up to now could not be adopted are legitimate children whose parents are alive; an illegitimate child whose mother has not given the initial consent to have him or her placed for adoption; an infant who has been abandoned; and an infant, even where there is a reasonable assumption that the child was born outside wedlock, cannot be adopted if the mother cannot be found to give the essential consent to his placement for adoption.

Over the past decade or so — it is a sad reflection on our society but it is understandable — mothers under certain stress and strain have abandoned their children, often in Church porches and places like that. They have often been found by people who would like to adopt them. There is something special in finding an abandoned child. I know one person — I do not want to give any further indication because the person might become known to the House — working in the Third World who was travelling along in his car one day and found a child abandoned on the side of the road and he took the child into his care. When his term was finished in the Third World, he brought the child back to Ireland and adopted the child, even though he had many children of his own. Of course, that is one of the favourite children in his family. I am glad that children in that category can be legally adopted when the Bill is enacted.

There is a special bond between children and their parents, a bond that is difficult to describe. I am glad the review committee mentioned this in a very moving way. In page 12 of the Report of the Review on Adoption Services it states:

The universal devotion of parents to their children is one of the strongest bonds known to the human race. It is as unlikely to be weakened by permitting legal adoption as it is to be strengthened by prohibiting it. I would go a little further than that and say the love we have for our children and the love they have for us is one of the greatest gifts from Almighty God. It is something we take for granted but if we examine it very carefully we will then understand this magnificent gift that has been given to us all. It has been my experience in dealing with adoptive parents that the bond with the children they adopt is even stronger than the bond that exists between natural parents and their children.

We move now into a new area of child adoption. As I have said, under the Bill we are authorising the legal adoption of children who up to this time, could not be legally adopted. We have to do this very slowly and carefully. The explanatory memorandum gives more information than any explanatory memorandum I have read do far. In relation to section 14 it states:

It would be hoped that the great majority of children in care would be re-united with their parents as a result of changes in family circumstances or attitudes. Restoration to the child's own family is a basic principle of present child care policy. Some children will not be so fortunate. Those children who are in care because they have been abandoned, neglected, physically or sexually abused, or who have come from one parent families unable to cope or families where there is marital disharmony are the most likely to be left in care permanently.

The wording "left in care permanently" is very important. Every child deserves a loving home, the support of a father and mother and where possible, the love of brothers and sisters. It must have a terrible effect on children if they are left in care permanently. However, I pay tribute to the people in our health boards and in fostering societies who do such a wonderful job in providing for the needs of children who have been left in care permanently. It is a great step forward for us as a society, to provide an opportunity for children who are permanently in care to live in a normal home. In this area we must tread very carefully.

I accept the argument that has been made in relation to the constitutionality of what we are doing. Article 42 of the Constitution describes the rights and duties of married parents as inalienable. Therefore their transfer to adoptive parents is impossible even if the natural parents wish to transfer them. Article 42.5 refers to the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child. The balance lies between the inalienable rights of their parents and the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child. It is very fine balance and we must look to it very carefully in the provisions we are discussing here today.

First, the adoption board will be required to obtain the view of the appropriate health board as to the child's need for adoption. Then if the adoption board are of the view that the child will benefit from adoption, it is possible that they will be prepared to make such an order if the High Court agrees. The adoptive parents will then request the appropriate health authority to apply to the High Court on their behalf for an order authorising the adoption.

A very important part of the legislation before the House is that an application of this kind can be considered by the High Court and the High Court must satisfy itself on a number of grounds. It is well to reflect for a moment on these grounds: (1) That for a continuous period of not less than 12 months immediately preceding the application the natural parents have, for physical or moral reasons, failed in their duty towards the child. I would be happier if that time of 12 months could be extended a little. I ask the Minister to consider this on Committee Stage. (2) That is likely that such failure will continue without interruption until the child is 18 years of age. (3) That such failure constitutes an abandonment on the part of the parent of all parental rights. (4) That by virtue of such failure the State should supply the place of the parents. (5) That the child has been in the custody of and has had a home with the applicant for a continuous period of not less than 12 months. Again on Committee Stage that period would be extended. I ask the Minister to consider that. (6) That the adoption of the child by the applicant is the most appropriate way to supply the place of the parents. The court must be satisfied on all of those grounds. Senator O'Connell spoke about his fears in this area. I concur with his fears because we have read in the newspapers of extraordinary happenings in other jurisdictions which we do not want to occur here.

I recall speaking in the other House on section 33 of the Children (Care and Protection) Bill when I had similar reservations. Let me make a passing reference to that Bill which received a Second Reading. A special committee was set up to deal with it on Committee Stage. I would like to see that being reorganised and coming before the House again.

One of the most important safeguards is that the High Court in taking into account the number of grounds I have outlined shall not make an order without having heard the natural parents of the child, unless they fail to come to court or cannot be found. An addition applies in this case. Prior to this, as I said children, when they were adopted, were adopted at a very early age, probably within a few weeks of birth and the need to consult with the child did not arise at that stage. Now it is necessary for the court to give consideration to the views of the child. This is very interesting and worthwhile guarantee. If the court, having heard the views of the natural parents and having taken into consideration the six grounds I outlined, is of the view that it is in the interests of a child that an order should be made, the adoption board are free to complete the adoption process and the child becomes a permanent member of the adoptive family.

In certain circumstances the health board can decline to make an application with the prospective adoptive parents to the High Court. If this happens, the adoptive parents themselves can make a request to the High Court. I find it a little difficult to understand why the parents will have to bear the cost if the application fails. I ask the Minister to give consideration to this on Committee Stage. This is a Bill involving generosity on all sides. Surely if adoptive parents who might not have the support of the health board feel they could succeed in the High Court, it is somewhat of a let down for them if, having failed they have to bear their own expenses. In all the circumstances the State should bear the costs.

The Adoption Board are a quasi-judicial body established to make adoption orders in relation to adoption orders about which there is no dispute or where the courts have ruled that an order can be made. Indeed, some of the new adoption Acts that we have, which are very interesting in constitutional law, brought to light the fact that the board was not a court. The Minister said:

The board do not, however, have the status to deal with such a fundamental issue as determining that natural parents have failed in their duties towards their child and that it would be proper to transfer parental rights and responsibilities for that child to another family. The High Court only can determine such an issue.

Debate adjourned.

When will the House meet again?

We will meet again at 12 noon on Wednesday next.

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