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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 1988

Vol. 121 No. 6

Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust Bill, 1988: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust was set up in the 1922-23 period to provide house for Irish ex-servicemen who fought in the First World War. The trust took over the duties of the Local Government Board which was given the task, immediately the war concluded, of providing houses for these men. At that time, some 2,000 houses were built throughout the 32 counties.

The trust is made up of five members, one of whom is appointed by the Taoiseach. The others are appointed by the British Government. Lord Killanin has been the Irish Government's nominee since 1955 and I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to his commitment and his dedication in the discharge of his role of as a trustee. Indeed, it is due largely to his active involvement in the matter that the trust funds which are the subject of this Bill, are now accruing to the Irish Exchequer. Our thanks are due to him.

The trust built houses in many parts of Ireland but with the passage of time the number of beneficiaries declined considerably and the vacant houses were sold. As a result the trust accumulated surplus funds and in 1983 it put forward proposals to the Irish and British Governments for the disposal of these funds.

Discussions then commenced and in 1986 agreement was reached for the repayment of the surplus funds in the ratio of 68 per cent of the British Government and 32 per cent to the Irish Government. These percentages were based on the original contributions of the two Governments. The British Government had given the trust grants of £1.3 million in the period 1923-25 and the Irish Government had, without payment, transferred land and houses to the trust in 1923.

The arrangement I have outlined was satisfactory to all concerned and its main terms were incorporated in legislation passed by the British Parliament in 1987. Following the enactment of this measure it is necessary to pass legislation here to enable the trust funds to be received into the Irish Exchequer and to be disposed of.

I should stress that the trust is not being wound up at this point. The British Act enables a winding up to be effected on the making of a ministerial order but this is unlikely to be done for a few years yet. When the trust is eventually wound up, our legislation in this area will be repealed and the Bill before you provides for this. I would emphasise that its provisions will not in any way affect the rights of remaining trust tenants of whom there are 15 here and 70 in Northern Ireland.

The Bill has two main sections. Section 2 provides for the acceptance by the Minister for Finance of any money payable to the Irish Government by the trust. A sum of £1.6 million approximately was in fact paid over by the trust last January and this, together with a recent payment of £747,000, has been lodged to the Exchequer. These payments were accepted in anticipation of this Bill as the trust was anxious to pay over its surplus funds as quickly as possible. It is expected that there will be a small number of further payments of much lesser amounts over the next few years until the trust is wound up.

Section 2 also provides for the disposal of the money paid into the Exchequer. During discussions which lead to the agreement in 1986, the Irish Government indicated that it proposed to use its allocation of trust funds for North-South and Anglo-Irish co-operation or for projects with an all-Ireland dimension. Last April, the Taoiseach announced that the Government intended to allocate a portion of the funds to the Royal National Lifeboat Institution to enable it to purchase a relief lifeboat which would serve the entire coastline and also to expand its search and rescue facilities on the west and north west coast. This commitment by the Government will involve expenditure of between £1 million and £1.1 million of trust funds. I am confident that Senators will approve of this support to the RNLI which is, of course, organised on an all-Ireland basis.

Section 2 of the Bill, as passed by the Dáil, refers to the RNLI and specifies that the funds will be disposed of for projects in the area of North-South or Anglo-Irish co-operation or co-operation projects relating to the island as a whole. A number of applications have already been received for co-operation projects in the educational, cultural and social fields and these will be considered following the passing of the legislation. A sum of £750,000 has been provided in the Estimates this year to cover an initial payment of £500,000 to the RNLI and to provide grants for those co-operation projects which may be approved between now and the end of the year. It is expected that the moneys will be allocated over a three to four year period and will cease once the funds paid by the trust have been drawn down.

The British Government, in accordance with their legislation, are allocating 40 per cent of their portion of the trust funds for the support of ex-servicemen's charities, North and South. At an early stage in the discussions with the trust and the British Government, consideration was given to the question of allocating the money received by the Irish Government to ex-servicemen of the Irish Army. It emerged, however, that this would have created a number of difficulties at the time and would have inhibited the chances of a successful outcome to the negotiations. In the circumstances, the previous Government decided that the best course of action was to use the money in the way I have mentioned.

Section 3 of the Bill will enable our earlier legislation on the trust to be repealed once the British Government make an order for its dissolution. The remaining provisions are standard and do not call for specific comments.

I commend the Bill to the House.

May I have clarification that on the Order of Business no decision was taken as to whether we would take just the Second Stage today or all Stages?

My understanding is that the Second Stage of this Bill would be taken today until 5.30 p.m. and that the subsequent Stages would be taken next week.

If we finish before 5.30 p.m. I have no objection to the Committee Stage being taken today.

Acting Chairman

When we come to that time, I will put it to the House and if it is agreed, it is agreed.

The Bill which we are discussing today repeals a Bill which was introduced in the very earliest days of the life of these Houses of Parliament. It was the 25th piece of legislation brought in 1923, just two months after the Civil War had ended. It was the beginning of a return to some sort of normality here in the Free State. The memory of the participation of the people in the Great War who were to be affected by the Bill was still very vivid in the minds of the vast bulk of the Irish public because, of course, almost 150,000 Irish people fought in the First World War and 50,000 died. It is interesting that among those taking part in the debate, especially in the Seanad, were a number of people who had themselves taken part in that great conflict.

The origins of the Bill, as the Minister has pointed out were based on pledges made during that war, to provide houses and land for servicemen. By the time of the Treaty, considerable progress had been made in this country, and quite a number of the houses were already in place. At the time of Independence, the British Government made £1.5 million available.

During the course of the debate in the Dáil, on more than one occasion the then Minister for Finance, Ernest Blythe, said that there would be no contribution from the Free State, no contribution from our Exchequer whatsoever, that the entire cost would be borne by the British Government. The sum was £1.5 million. During the course of the debate in the other House, one of the points made on a number of occasions was that the amount of money coming to this Government is in direct proportion to the amount which was paid in by the separate Governments in 1922 and 1923. It is a matter of historical interest just to know whether Ernest Blythe was not being fully frank with the House in 1923 or whether there was a subsequent change to the legislation which makes the current divide out of the funds take the shape it does.

At that time, 2,500 houses were to be built in the Free State and just over 1,000 in Northern Ireland. The Minister said that 15 of these houses exist here and 70 exist in Northern Ireland. Clearly the degree of longevity in Northern Ireland has been greater than that in the Republic. It is interesting to note that one of the Saorstát Éireann representatives on the first trust was a Member of this House, General Sir Brian Mahon who was, of course, also a former serviceman and was the nominee of the Irish Free State Government to the trust in 1923.

Perhaps at this point it is no harm to point out that he was one of a number of very prominent Unionists who had been nominated to the First Free State Seanad by W.T. Cosgrave, an indication that the then Government saw the Unionists as having a very full role to play in the building up of a new Free State and a guarantee to a place in the life of that State. Indeed that is one of the original reasons this House came into existence and it is a great pity that that initial gesture did not come to fruition in the way which it deserved to over subsequent years.

It is also important at this stage to bring to mind once again the people for whom this legislation was designed. To a great extent, the Irishmen who went off to fight in the First World War are the forgotten, and in many cases the excluded men of this century. They left to fight. Who knows why they went? They went to escape the poverty and the lack of opportunity at home. They went because they heeded the appeals of the parliamentary party, the Nationalist Party, and the appeals of John Redmond and John Dillon and others who believed that Ireland's participation in the war and a victory for the British forces would result in the speedy granting of Home Rule for all of Ireland. They went, perhaps because some like Tom Kettle and others believed they were fighting for the freedom of small nations or perhaps they went as young people would go out of a sense of adventure.

For whatever reason they went, they went and those who were lucky to come back came back to a very changed situation. They found themselves as I have said to a great extent excluded in their own country. Those of us who are now in what we call middle age would have known a great number of these people. I knew them growing up down in Bagenalstown, County Carlow where some very fine soldiers' cottages were built under the provisions of this particular Bill.

I often wondered about them because to me they were no different from anybody else. They were certainly as Irish as anybody else was and yet they seemed to be excluded in some strange way from the Nationalist orthodoxy. There was something about them that made them less than full participants in their own country. I always regretted that. I regret, too, that recent events have shown how deep seated in certain quarters is the antipathy to what these people represent and to the choice they made in 1914.

Debate adjourned.
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