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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 1989

Vol. 123 No. 8

NESC Report — Ireland in the European Community: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann takes note of the National Economic and Social Council, Report No. 88. Ireland in the European Community: Performance, Prospects and Strategy.
—(Senator McGowan.)

On the last occasion we discussed this matter, which was 16 November, I made some remarks about the report and on matters relating to it. I would like to take up where I left off on that occasion, where basically I was dealing with the position with regard to Irish farmers. I made the point that in 1972, when we all campaigned very vigorously for membership of the EC we did it knowing that our industry would be in serious trouble. We found, unfortunately, approximately ten years later when many of our industries in the intervening ten years had gone to the wall, that agriculture was getting into difficulties, that brakes were being applied on it and this unlimited potential which we looked forward to had now evaporated.

While I acknowledged on the last occasion that we have been net beneficiaries by being a member of the EC, we are now in the position where our standard of living is extremely low because our industrial development has been curtailed, our old industries have disappeared and agriculture with one exception, dairying, has been stagnant at best and in many respects has continued to decline. I make the point, and I do not think it is taken on board by the Government and many others who could contribute to its solution that a vast number of our farmers are in a very serious economic situation. There are thousands of farmers, not necessarily small farmers in the west, who are trying to eke out an existence on a very low income. This is because of the total collapse of the beef industry, an industry that had artificially high prices and producers of beef bought their raw materials at high prices. They found themselves, subsequently, with margins that left very little profit. Our grain farmers are in a similar position. Perhaps the exceptions to the non-dairying farmers are the beef farmers and the sheep farmers whose margins are sustainable and from which they can make a living.

I will push very strongly in this House for the attention of the Government that our non-dairying sector, the people who have not the licence to produce milk, must be assisted. It is not a regional matter, it is not a matter of the size of the farm or efficiency. It is a matter of being precluded from producing the one commodity that leaves a margin of profit in farming. I sincerely hope some action will be taken on it.

The NESC report which, is a very lengthy document, dwells very strongly on the importance of having a higher standard of living for all our people. This is a worthwhile and desirable objective and we must work towards it. That standard of living has got to be across the board. It cannot be sectionalised or confined to any particular grouping of people. I am convinced, and it runs through the report, that the maximum degree of integration is desirable to give us the best results.

It is absolutely important that cognisance is taken of the various regions, the disadvantages certain regions have and the advantages others enjoy and there must be a measure of equity. Our very seriously disadvantaged position of being an island on the periphery of the mainland of Europe, our distance from the market-place, our small population and no home market of any consequence must be considered. In fact we are basically underdeveloped in comparison with many members of the European Community. The question of equity must, in my view, be taken very firmly into account in the context of the Single European Act, and so on.

The Dooge Committee played a vital role in the internal market proposal and subsequently successive Governments laid the groundwork to make the Single European Act as acceptable and as beneficial as possible for the entire Community, including ourselves. We all welcome the NESC report and note that it is very forward looking. The historical meetings in Rhodes and Madrid which put the matter in a very clear and simple context, said the following:

Completion of the Single Market cannot be regarded as an end in itself. It pursues a much wider objective, namely, to ensure the maximum wellbeing of all, in line with the tradition of social progress which is part of Europe's history. This tradition of social progress should be a guarantee that all citizens, whatever their occupation, will have effective access to the direct benefits expected from a single market as a factor of economic growth and the most effective means of combating unemployment and in the construction of a Single European Market social aspects should be given the same importance as economic aspects and should be accordingly, developed in a balanced manner.

That reference to the Rhodes and Madrid meetings sums up a great deal for us. We must be conscious of the fact that there are a lot of things that we as a nation must do to be ready for 1992. There is a vast amount of legislation which has to be passed, which fact is not at all times realised, although I know that regular ministerial discussions take place. We must, of course, aim for a higher level of efficiency in our various sectors. The efficiency of the Irish nation in its various facets, while I do not decry it, is not good enough to compete in 1992 with all the situations which will then arise. This is not very far away.

We should be very glad of the radical changes in the Structural and Regional Funds which channel a great deal of money in our direction. It is incumbent on us to make sure that these moneys are spent in the right direction and to the greatest advantage. I referred already to economic integration. I speak of economic integration in the European sense. This has to be solved and has to be managed and it is not something that will happen by itself. We are striving, therefore, for 1992. Sometimes when people talk about it I wonder if they realise the impact it will have on the whole Irish scene, because I believe it will be quite dramatic.

We have, over the years, advocated the importance of added value, adding more value to our exports. We have failed miserably in many respects in the agricultural sector, in the whole beef export industry. An example of that is sides of beef being exported, which is just one step removed from exporting the live animal. The same applies in many other spheres of agriculture and in the industrial section. We have enormous potential in the whole added-value area. We must couple this with a greater degree of diversification. We tend to produce on tradition without having sufficiently researched the entire market area first.

I believe — I said this in this House on previous occasions — that we have over the years produced a particular commodity and then we have vigorously gone out and tried to sell that commodity with expert marketeers and all the rest. That is a totally wrong way of doing it. We should first go out there to examine clearly and establish very fully what the consumer is looking for. Whether it is a housewife in Paris, Bonn, Madrid or wherever, we must establish what the customer wants, either in the food sector or in the non-food sector. We must then come back and produce to the requirement of that consumer. The old adage is not very far wrong in this context when it talks about the customer always being right. In a global sense, and from an Irish point of view, we must produce what the consumer wants us to produce and how he wants it. We might not necessarily agree that this is the best way to produce items, or, but if the consumer wants a particular product presented in a certain manner we must do that.

I mentioned presentation. One could not over-emphasise the absolute importance of this. Presentation of Irish products over the years has been very poor. There have been many cases of Irish products being presented very badly in comparison with our European counterparts.

I do not wish to interrupt the Senator's train of thought, but there is one hour left in this debate for other speakers. I have six Senators offering, so I ask that not only the Senator but the others following to bear that in mind. The House has agreed that there is no limit to the time Senators can speak so I cannot impose a limit, I ask the other speakers coming in to bear in mind that there are six offering at this moment.

I will try to abbreviate my points as much as possible. I spoke about presentation, which is of paramount importance. Research is vital too. Enough of it is not being done and this is tied in very closely with education. Education and research are one and the same thing,

One could not talk about the matters arising in this report without referring to the serious position of emigration. We have 50,000 persons leaving our shores every year. This is the official figure. Many more that we do not know about are also emigrating. We must be very conscious of the fact that the real unemployment position is, in fact, not a quarter of a million but over 300,000. There will be grants of vital importance available to us in 1992 if we prepare the ground for them. We must, above all, always regard ourselves as a nation as an equal partner in Europe and should never regard ourselves as anything else.

There are a number of points that I intended to make but in deference to the Chairs remarks and the Senators who wish to come in I will conclude by stressing once again that the EC offers us opportunities provided we do our part in preparing our economy, industry, agriculture, workers and the entire scene in Ireland for it. Only then can we benefit from being involved in 1992.

I will be very brief. I would like to compliment the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, on her speech. I have one criticism of it but it is not directed personally against her. Some of the speech covered the entire area. It also covered statements emanating from the European Community in this area. They are so highly technical that there is a danger of gobbledegook. There is a danger of alienating the ordinary citizens of the country and indeed even educated, sophisticated persons like ourselves from the use of acronyms, the use of particular specialised language systems which are quite difficult to penetrate for those who are uninitiated. I could instance quite a number of them concepts like subsidiarity for example; phrases such as "the completion of the internal market requires the continuation of very successful macro-economic management and supporting sectoral policies which we have been pursuing".

That is not perhaps the most impenetrable but it is the kind of thing that causes some hesitation. Having gone to the trouble of penetrating it I discovered that it was not a particularly explosive concept and I felt that it might perhaps have been expressed in slightly simpler language because I am sure the Minister, who is as I know from my brief contacts with her to be at heart very much a democrat, would wish to do all in her power to make this kind of information as accessible as possible to the citizens of the country. I am sure that she and the Government believe with me that the Community will only move forward at the correct speed and with the maximum consent of the people if the ideas that control our future are made available to as many of the citizens as possible.

This is terribly important because I was struck by a phrase in what Senator Fallon said in his contribution, that the aim of the Community should be to become the single most powerful economic unit in the world. That is a very, very serious aim. It causes me some small hesitation because when I look at what the Minister said, she very correctly speaks of insisting that we must be a Community which cherishes all its citizens equally. I welcome this incorporation of some of the language of the Proclamation of 1916 into the ambitions and intentions of the European Community and would point out that it is not actually part of our Constitution. It underlines for me that the European Community is in essence very much a club and one in which we benefit from policies which remove internal distortions probably at the expense of creating a distortion in the global economy. I would like some degree of reassurance that in pursuing the aim of making the European Community the single most powerful economic instrument in the world we do not entirely neglect our obligations to other citizens of this planet. It is very important that we note this today, on a day in which we have dealt with the non-establishment of an Oireachtas joint committee on overseas development aid and the fact that we came into Leinster House past a dignified peaceful picket of people who believe that not only the Community but in particular this country have not lived up to their humane obligations in this area.

I have some further reservations. They are concealed under some of the careful language which the Minister has used where for example it is stated that:

It is scarcely realistic or even perhaps desirable to contemplate the Community exercising exclusive responsibility in such areas as social security or regional policy.

That seems to me to carry an echo of recent discussions in Brussels where the British Government, for example, wished to dissociate themselves from some of the social ramifications and it appeared almost as if our Minister for Labour at some of these talks, was also distancing himself from concepts such as the minimum wage. It seems to me that if we are talking about cherishing all the citizens of our State equally, then we should be careful before removing ourselves from a consideration of what is a decent wage for the people of this country. I hope the Minister may be able to give some reassurance on this point, which is very important.

There is also an interesting series of observations about the political impact of these discussions. The Minister, very rightly, places the impact of the conclusions of this report in a wider context than simply the economic one. This clearly also has been done recently by the Taoiseach. I would have to say, however, in this light, that the recent initiative by the Taoiseach within the context of the European Community, in writing to the three Northern Unionist Members of the European Parliament would have been more impressive and more persuasive had the latter been sent, received and perhaps replied to before it was actually bruited abroad to the Dáil. I also feel I have got to comment on the paragraph where the Minister says:

I disagree with NESC that Irish Governments have tended to see cohesion as a purely economic phenomenon. Successive Governments here have I believe adopted a consistently communautaire thrust on broad strategic issues in the Community. This is exemplified by our generally positive approach to fresh steps in integration such as the EMS and the SEA. These had much more than an economic significance...

That, of course, is true but I would perhaps remind the Minister that on my first day in the Seanad after the election before this one, we had an opportunity to discuss the Single European Act. At that time it seemed to me that the Taoiseach, who was then Leader of the Opposition was, in fact, quite scrupulous in indicating that he had considerable difficulties in supporting the Single European Act for precisely those reasons, that it was wider than a purely economic framework.

I would like to take up a very particular point about the Structural Funds and the way in which they will be dispensed. The Minister says:

The Community support framewrok which sets out the priorities, the amount and type of assistance which we will be receiving from the Structural Funds, has now been approved by the Commission. This will be published shortly.

In fact, I believe I am correct in saying that it may have been published now since the Minister last spoke: I am not quite sure on that point. The Minister continued:

Discussions are at an advanced stage between the European Commission and the various Government Departments in regard to the content of our operational programmes and these are expected to be appproved over the coming weeks. Pending this, it is not possible to say exactly which individual projects will be selected for assistance by the funds.

I want to comment very specifically on this. Having spoken in a broad range about the distorting effect that may occur within the Community by what could be perceived as our capitalist selfishness, I want to be very parochial. I want to remind the Minister that the consultative study which accompanied our submission to Brussels contained some very specific proposals which were costed. They included funding for the redevelopment of areas in the north inner city, especially Henrietta Street, and the provision of support for No. 35, North Great George's Street, which was itemised for £600,000. I would like to direct a specific question to the Minister on this.

It has come to my attention as chairman of the board of trustees of the James Joyce Cultural Centre that there may very well be a move by a semi-State body intended to strip that funding away from the James Joyce Cultural Centre and apply it to another project which was not mentioned in the consultative study. This for me raises a very serious question. What is the point in going to Europe? I have done this on repeated occasions to the European Community, to the Council of Europe, Cultural Funds and so on, and I have been complimented on the beauty, grace and elegance of my language, the superb quality of my submission, the wonderful photographs, the wealth of rhetoric and so on but where does it get you? At the end of the day you get nothing. I remember thinking, I wish I had been rude, ignorant, blasphemous and indecent and got the message across because at the end of the day there is no point in being told you have written well but it produces no result.

I feel there would be real concern if, once again, the State agencies hoover in and carpetbag on the hard and determined work of people in this area seeking funds. I would simply like to signal to the Minister the possibility that there will be a major row if this is allowed to happen again. It would be quite unthinkable if serious, detailed lengthy submissions were made; if funds are apparently hypothetically allocated — I did ask what the precise status of the consultative study was at an earlier stage last year but I got no reply — and it will not go unremarked in the public media if this money is simply swiped. In defence to the other Senators who wish to speak I will confine my remarks to those few points.

This NESC report is certainly a very thorough report indeed, but if there is one point that seems to come through from it, it is the question of complacency. I do not think we should lose sight of this very critical aspect which again and again, as one reads through the report, comes either directly or indirectly to the surface. We have no reason for complacency either in relation to our development so far within the European Community, which has been disapointing in many ways, or in relation to the further opening of the Community in 1992. This will certainly grant us many opportunities. That does not necessarily mean that we are going to grasp or perhaps be able to grasp these opportunities. Despite the many advances made since we joined the European Community, the overall picture is a very disappointing one, one in which we have admittedly moved forward but our rate of progess has been relatively slow. To an increasing extent we are becoming a small, isolated economy, which has made certain very limited progress towards industrialisation, certain very limited progress in the services sector and a rather artificial degree of progress in the agricultural sector. I do not think any of this gives us much cause for complacency.

We have two other very major happenings which will be occurring over the next few years, and of which we seem to have taken very little note. First, is the construction of the Channel Tunnel. It is now well advanced. It is proving to be extremely expensive; there have been severe cost overruns but, there is no doubt whatever that it is going to be completed. When it is, the United Kingdom market will be even more closely associated with the already developed industrial economic base of north-west Germany, of the Netherlands and of France. It will, indeed, be far closer in terms of access to the other industrial regions of significance in the Common Market such as the Catalonian region and northern Italy. Where are we? If anything, we are even more isolated. That is the reality of the situation. We are working not from a state of advantage but one of disadvantage. One may argue that we would be even worse off if we were outside the Community and that is very true. It is essential for us to be a member of the Community. As we read through this report, we cannot but observe the number of missed opportunities or opportunities not sufficiently taken. That bodes ill for us. We must in no way be complacent. The Treaty of Rome, as stated here in the very first chapter, expressed the determination to lay the foundations of an ever closer reunion among the peoples of Europe. The other major factor which, of course, is happening and that we are all aware of, is the dramatic changes in Eastern Europe. However, much we may applaud and greatly welcome the social and human freedom which is introducing the reunion of families and so on, nonetheless the other reality of it is that the strongest trading partner, the strongest financial partner in the European Community now has a situation in which it returns to its natural hinterland, a great deal of which is in Eastern Europe, East Germany, Czechoslovakia — which used to be one of the most industrialised countries of Europe — Hungary. These countries are already being financially aided by the Federal German Republic. There is an EC input to that but let us face the realities of it, it is basically a German financial input, either directly or indirectly.

The reality is that the Deutsche Mark is becoming very much the currency of Europe and perhaps one of the wisest moves was, indeed, to join the EMS at an early stage. Even there we had our problems and those problems may well now increase not decrease in the coming years. This in turn is related, and specifically referred to in the report, to the banking situation. We had this very imaginative move towards setting up a financial services sector, a sector which seems to be exceeding the expectations that one could have, but nonetheless the reality is that now all banking institutions in Europe and the European Communities, and basically that comes back to the United Kingdom, the French and above all the German banking institutions, will now be free to compete within this small community in so far as they wish to do so. This has some fairly strong implications for us.

Let us turn to another aspect and talk about management. Here the report says very clearly that management is a key resource in all strategic options. In a recent report the advisory committee on management training concluded that the level of commitment to management development in Ireland is unacceptably low, given the economic challenges that face the country. This is reality. That bodes ill and certainly suggests that there can be no complacency whatever. Immediately following that paragraph, where it refers to the economic environment lessons of the past, our study, the experience since Ireland's accession, shows clearly that despite the openness of the economy to external influences, general domestic economic policy can seriously damage the overall economic environment.

Here again our policy must be much more geared to the realities of the fact that we are now allied in the EMS to the Deutsche Mark, that we are now allied to a very different economy with all the implications that it has. I wonder whether we have really taken this on board. Let us take the example of the chemical industry. We have, indeed, on the apparent statistics that one looks at, had tremendous developments in the chemical industry and this is, of course, to be welcomed, but it has been almost entirely foreign-based. Irish chemical industries have either disappeared altogether or declined, partly because they were old traditional industries, partly for other reasons, that they were too small or did not show sufficient initiative, or whatever. The reality is that our internal chemical industry has declined. That is repeated over and over again in other aspects and is, perhaps, hidden by many of the statistics which we look at. We, as a small economy situated in what will be an increasingly remote part of Europe as the central access, which already is well away from us, shifts further towards the east, need to look to ourselves to see in what way we can effectively compete other than just simply receive social service contributions, important though these have been. We can only compete if we make a much more organised effort to concentrate on certain areas. We cannot compete, for example, in mass manufacturers, it is just not on in our situation or any likely development of that situation. We can, however, compete if we are prepared to look at the top 5 per cent of the market, to adopt a policy of looking at the highly specialised, highly technical, the very high quality goods. We have a possibility of competing in a very tough market, but nonetheless one in which a small economy has the opportunity of developing.

I can cite one obvious example — which had far fewer resources then we have, and that is the Finnish economy. One could make many excuses why the Finnish economy, should have declined since the Second World War. They have very few natural resources, they were devastated by the war, they had to make enormous reparations to the Soviet Union and yet by specialising in certain areas of machinery and equipment they are now the leading country in the world in these area. They have a very high standard of living which is far higher than that in this country, they have developed their economy by specialising in aiming at the top niche of the market. We have the opportunity of doing that. In agriculture, we have potentially the best material and the best food in Europe. We have shown that, given the challenge, we can produce very high qualify products but we really need, as a nation, as a Government, to take ourselves in hand and say we have to aim at quality, and there a small economy can, hopefully, compete successfully. If we do not do that, we will simply gradually drift further and further back in the European Community. This backwards drift is being hidden by the fact that it is moving apparently forwards but, in reality, as compared with the other countries in the Community, we are slipping backwards.

I will bear in mind the Chair's words about being brief. In Euro-speak today, as Senator Norris and other Senators have said, it is common to talk about economic cohesion. It is a fine aspiration. However, I am sorry to have to say — perhaps I am a pessimist — that it is pie in the sky and I will tell you why. If the Irish economy grew at twice the European Community average which I think is a most unlikely scenario, it would take us 20 years to match the wealth of Belgium, 22 years to match that of Britain, 28 years to match that of Denmark, etc., etc. In other words, we are no more likely to close the wealth gap with the wealthier states than Scotland is to close it with London or Connemara is to close it with Dublin.

However, that is not the entire story. What is more important is that we get rich in real terms rather than in relative terms, and I believe we can and we must do that. Indeed, I have often quoted Finland as an example, as Senator Conroy has mentioned. I studied there for a while. They have some extraordinary achievements, but they also have one extraordinary resource and that is the total area of woodland is more than twice the size of England, and it is great reservoir on which to call. Necessity forced them after the war, and they responded remarkably by concentrating in the machine tool area on icebreakers, ship building and so on where they became world leaders.

Returning to the question of economic cohesion, I want to go further and say that we have pinned far too much hope in my view on the increased Structural Funds as a means of solving all our economic problems. Such funds can be very useful if strategically used to generate increased economic activity but unfortunately in this country too many people, particularly politicans, see the increased Structural Funds as an end in themselves, not as a means to an end — the end being extra wealth and extra jobs. If I may be realistic and throw cold water on some of these hopes, let us remember that, if the funds are doubled they will still only represent one-third of what we had been borrowing each year just to keep going. I mention that to highlight how important it is that we use the extra funds we get to generate increased economic wealth, not just to have a good time for a while.

The level of transfer of resources is entirely inadequate in my view, more particularly when it is realised that the third level education for all those who emigrate from Ireland cost the Irish taxpayer almost £100 million per year and such emigration represents a transfer of our most important resource from a relatively poor country to the wealthier countries, mainly in the Community.

We obtain our fair share of the Community budget on a per capita basis, but the problem is, of course, that the total budget is far too small, only 0.5 per cent of Community GDP or, in other words, a mere token transfer to the poorer peripheral regions of the Community, possibly to keep us quiet. The United States by contrast transfers about 2.5 per cent of its GDP to its poorer regions. Without a similar move in Europe we will never be a Community in the true sense, but the closer integration recommended by NESC would certainly help in this direction.

This report, which we cannot do justice to in the time available, highlights a number of important issues. It highlights two distinct periods in our time of membership of the Community. In the early years we performed quite well but our performance since 1979 has been, to say the least, disappointing. The report, however, is relatively silent on the reckless economic monetary and fiscal policies we adopted in the late seventies and early eighties as the cause of the poor performance since 1979. If we cast our minds back, public sector pay went up by 35 per cent in 1980 combined with horrific borrowing and spending which took inflation rates above 20 per cent. This, in turn, drove many enterprises, including many farmers, to the wall. Our economic woes, therefore, are to a considerable extent of our own making. We are disadvantaged in many ways but then so, too, is Finland and many other areas I could refer to. We did contribute to our own downfall to some extent.

In commenting on this NESC report, we cannot overlook the 1992 programme, and the impact that is going to have on us, on taxation, on our competitiveness and so on. Removal of border posts, as we all know, will necessitate the convergence of indirect taxation rates. I do not think we are going to have harmonisation — that is a bit too ambitious — but at least if we can get the indirect rates within 5 or 6 per cent on each side of the border, we could eliminate a lot of the distortion of trade.

As a highly taxed country, convergence will automatically mean a gain for the consumer but bad news, possibly, for the Revenue Commissioners, or is it? I am not too sure. Various estimates of up to £600 million in loss of revenue have been quoted. I do not accept these estimates entirely for a number of reasons. These are theoretical calculations based on things as they now stand, but things do not stand still when you start changing indirect taxation rates. Lower VAT and excise duties will mean increased economic activity and reduced smuggling, which is at present on a massive scale. Of course, I believe it will also mean a considerable reduction in the black economy. As the balance of incentive and penalty changes, there will be many people emerging into the legal economy.

When the then Minister for Finance introduced the 48-hour restriction because of distortion in our trade, I took issue with him in the European Parliament. I did so for the following reasons. It was a waste of time because I do not believe it is possible to stop smuggling. If items as large, as loud and as smelly as pigs and cattle are smuggled across the Border day in day out, despite the heavy presence of police and Army on both sides, how can we stop the smuggling of items as small, as valuable and as silent as cigarettes, tobacco, spirits, consumer electronics and so on? Of course, we cannot. It now transpires that — the ESRI tells us — there has been no significant reduction in the flow of goods from the North to the South. That means, in effect, since there has been a big reduction in the number of people going North to shop, that the goods are now coming South via the smugglers who all too often are also the terrorists. In my view the only answer is to bring the indirect taxation rates, as close as possible, on both sides of the Border. We should concern ourselves with keeping our rates close to the one country with which we have a land border and let the others worry about their own problems. We must worry about our problem in relation to our nearest neighbour.

The ultimate solution would be to bring our tax rates closer. Differences in prices, however, are not always due to tax differences. Sometimes it is due to lack of competition or differential pricing by wholesalers or manufactureres and this, too, has to be watched carefully. It should be remembered that when the ESRI carried out the study for the Commission on the tax differences and so on, on both sides of the Border, one of the interesting things they found was that when all elements of taxation difference on a bottle of whiskey were removed, a bottle of whiskey cost £2.05 more in Dundalk than in Newry, and it is distilled in Midleton, Country Cork. It is not always tax differences which cause price differences.

As a nation, however, we have taxed ourselves into poverty by killing the incentive to work, to save, to invest and to take risks. Essential services, such as telephones, post, electricity, transport and so on were among the most competitively priced in Europe in 1977. By 1982 they were all significantly dearer than their counterparts in Europe. The toll of over-staffing, leading to high taxation and to spiralling wages, etc., made it very difficult for business to survive and unemployment took an upward trend. Those who lost jobs emigrated because of a lack of work here and many of those who had jobs emigrated because they were paying too much tax.

With the economy in such urgent need of tax reform, it is incumbent upon our political leaders to tackle this matter without further delay. Failure to do so will mean that we will continue to get poorer both in real and relative terms and the very resources we need to build our economy will have departed our shores for a better deal elsewhere. With the momentum for greater economic and monetary union in the Community now is the time to grasp the nettle. A lot has been said about economic and monetary union. It is a very noble aspiration and objective, but we must remember that the idea of a single currency can only come about when we have much more closely-knit economic and monetary policies thoughout the whole of the Community. It also means, of course, something which Mrs. Thatcher, in particular, and many other Governments do not like, a certain loss of sovereignty, which they do not want to give up easily. But the benefits to be gained from it are enormous, apart from getting rid of the inconvenience of all the different currencies. For example, in terms of cost, if one was to convert our money into the other 11 currencies and back again, one would end up with roughly 46 per cent of what one started out with. We are placing on industry throughout the Community a self-imposed cost, which is making us less competitive, vis-à-vis the United States and Japan. There is also the risk factor involved, although that is minimised somewhat now by the EMS, but we still have it because we do most of our trading with Britain, which is not in the EMS. I would like to say much more about that but I see that the Chairman is looking at the clock.

Finally, I cannot let the opportunity pass without saying something about agriculture because this was the great white hope. We were going to drown the Continent in food, milk, butter, eggs and so on. Alas, that did not happen. The only area where there was real significant progress was that of dairying and that was all too often at the expense of other enterprises, such as beef, cattle, sheep, tillage and so on. If I were to put down our failure to a single cause, I would put it down to what I would refer to as the technology gap. When we joined the Community 80 per cent plus of our farmers had primary education only, as against 90 per cent plus, in Denmark, Belgium, Holland, and so on, having formal agricultural education after second level education. Therefore, we were amateurs competing in a very professional field. How could we expect to have been as successful as them, given our other disadvantages as well? Of course we could not have been. The situation has not improved and the recent cutbacks are to be regretted. There are areas of Government spending that are more important than others and I would rather see the cuts being made somewhere else.

With regard to food processing, here again we have not been very successful. Senator Hourigan has already referred to the fact that we produce something and then try to sell it, rather than first finding out what is needed and then producing it. I have used this slogan in the past and I will use it again because it is appropriate: "planning must begin at the plate and not at the plough, as in the past". Farmers and food processors would spend their time more beneficially sitting at supermarket check-outs rather than in Ministers' or Commissioners' waiting rooms asking for something which they are not going to get. We must face the reality. The consumer is the person who will decide whether we succeed or fail.

I cannot let the opportunity pass either without making some reference to the European Parliament, of which I was a member for a few years and hope to be again. The Parliament is getting quite a lot of power now. If, after a Second Reading, an amendment is passed with a majority, 260 plus, and with the support of the Commission, that amendment can only be blocked at the Council of Ministers on the basis of a unanimous vote. I have had personal experience of this in a number of areas. Regrettably, and I do not know what the problem is, briefing MEPs after all the committee work is done before they go in to vote in Strasbourg is marginally better than useless because if the horse is not already gone at that stage, the most you have is a few hairs of the tail. If MEPs are not properly briefed on First Reading and certainly before Second Reading, we will never be able to get across what the country wants because the point will not be accepted at the plenary session if the committee has already strongly decided otherwise.

Acting Chairman

There are three speakers offering in the 16 minutes remaining. Therefore, it is up to the three Senators to divide the time among themselves.

I withdraw.

I will be brief and try to summarise the points I want to make. First, it is impossible to give the report the treatment it deserves, which should be a chapter-by-chapter analysis of its deliberations. Like other speakers, I welcome it as an excellent appraisal of where we were prior to our entry to the EC, during the period of accession, where we are in 1989 and where we ought to be going in the nineties. Looking back, the picture is a bleak one. The Minister for Labour, Deputy Ahern, referred in the Dáil to the document as being a sobering one. I have selected specific areas I would like to refer to.

One, industry and our performance, and particularly the need for developmental policies in relation to primary, secondary and tertiary industries. Secondly, education, particularly in the area of the European Social Fund. Thirdly, the area of social cohesion in relation to education, and particularly in relation to the Commission's repeated emphasis on its intention to promote the employment of women. Lastly, I could not let the document go without referring to the use of Structural Funds as drawn up, submitted and in the process of being implemented between now and 1993.

With reference to industry and our performance, the report shows a slow growth after accession, slower than it had been from 1960 to 1973. With a slower growth of output and faster growth of productivity, it meant that employment in manufacturing industry increased very little in the years after our accession. There was a decline in traditional industries such as textiles, clothing, footwear, with the reduction of tariff protection. There was an increase in the engineering sector particularly in the subsection where firms produced electronics and office equipment only, and I repeat only, due to a rapidly increased share of IDA grant aid in the years from 1975 onwards. Likewise, in the chemical industry there was growth in pharmaceuticals — again because of substantial grant-aided investment between 1974 and 1977.

There are serious implications for us regarding huge levels of grant. I was glad the report centred on the fact that grant-aided plant investments have demonstrated that they have not greatly stimulated industrialisation. Where does that leave us? We must have developmental policies in relation to industry, particularly in the agricultural industry. Senator Conroy, Senator Hourigan and Senator Raftery referred to that. In the agricultural sector, in the food processing area, added value is seen as added costs and added aggravation. This approach, of course, has been maintained, fostered and geared towards commodity products rather than value-added products. We must insist, in this area, on developmental supports. In other words, industry must change direction. The incentives necessary must be directed in that way. That is very important.

With regard to education within the European context, particularly in the area of funding, I am aware of EC funding and assistance in various interventions at second level, particularly in the area of vocational training and preparation of students for the transition from school to working life, or sadly non-working life, or now emigration. I am aware of the project regarding language development, funding to RTCs, funding within the Limerick area to Co-Act, and FÁS training programmes.

However, I am surprised, because of the strong emphasis on agriculture at primary and secondary levels of industry, that there is no funding going in that direction. I would suggest that moneys from the ESF should be extended to post-secondary school students who wish to further their education towards careers in farming, particularly at the primary level of farming, and also its allied industries. I am thinking specifically of agricultural colleges, like Pallaskenry and Warrenstown. We could draw comparisons with agricultural colleges in the Netherlands and in Denmark where they are on the same priority as post-secondary colleges here. I am amazed we have never emphasised the importance of agricultural education. We have scholarships for those colleges, but no funding from Europe. Of course, with the changing nature of Irish agricultural employment, resources must be made available. I could go on and ask why NUI university colleges, University College, Limerick, Dublin City University, Trinity College, and so on have not got ESF funding. They have got funding for post-graduate studies, lately.

On agricultural training within the area of social cohesion, NESC make reference to the necessity for grants in regions which will be affected by market completion. I particularly emphasise the need here for training programmes for women entering and re-entering the labour force.

My third point is in relation to the NESC reference to the repeated commitment of the EC Commission to pursue the question of women's participation in the labour force and their contribution to the development of the Community, their aim being to foster and to further women's integration into the economy and society. This is part of the second action programme on equal opportunities for women between 1986 and going on to 1990. This is particularly relevant for us here in Ireland where there are still proportionately fewer women in jobs than in most EC countries. Recent figures issued by FÁS in their labour market monthly show that the proportion of women in the labour force has increased from 27.8 per cent in 1979 to 32.1 per cent in 1988. The counterpart figure for the 12 EC countries is 38.7 per cent, with only Spain having proportionately fewer women at work than Ireland.

Another insidious statistic which causes me great concern is that part-time employment is of far greater significance for women than men. I will give a few more statistics in relation to women in part-time jobs. The 1987 figure, for instance, was 47,200, which was 90 per cent more than the 22,400 recorded in 1979. The 2.5 per cent of the male workforce categorised as part-time is comparable with the figure of 13 per cent for women. In the unemployment figures for women, there was a jump from 20,900 in 1980 to a staggering 71,200 in July of this year, an increase of over 50,000 or 241 per cent. In regard to men, comparably there was a rise of 94,000, up by 145 per cent. Any increase we have had in the participation of women in the workforce is very slight. Within the last ten years it is attributable to the impact of EC-related legislation on anti-discrimination, the Equal Pay Act, 1975 which, I believe, is still being breached, and the Employment Equality Act, 1986. I am glad that NESC highlights the issues that must be addressed. There is a need for public policies which implicity and explicitly encourage female labour force participation. On the other hand, public policies, notably income taxation of married women and the absence of public provision for child care act as disincentives to women working.

What do we do? In Ireland we must determine what particular policies must be effective and justify European financial support. The following are important — and I will list them quickly because of time constraint — child care day centres, both from a legislative viewpoint and also inspection, selective provision by health boards and local authorities of child care services, tax reliefs for child care expenses incurred by parents, child care facilities provided by employers.

These are all matters of priority. If we are to harmonise working and living conditions, we, in Ireland, could incur disproportionately higher costs in conforming to Community initiatives because of our economic and demographic structure. We have no direct public provision and management of child day care in contrast to many other EC countries and a less comprehensive social security and parental relief régime. We can only attempt to develop with some Community financial support but we must not expect the EC to change everything. Here at home employers and we, as legislators, must acknowledge our social responsibility to provide the necessary social support which women require in the workplace.

Where economic constraints are cited, for example, as a reason for not creating a programme of child care facilities, one must question the values and attitudes underlying decisions about economic priorities. In other countries, even with economic problems as serious as our own, change has occurred quite dramatically. I do not accept that we in Ireland need always have the poor mouth. For instance, in the first four years after 1981, when the Greek Government took office the number of child care centres tripled to 400 new centres in four years. That was in a country that is peripheral and a country that is, like ourselves, looking for increased structural funding. They were able to do it when they set their minds to it. The point there is that policies can be implemented if the underlying attitudes, values and priorities are there. We should take note, because we always seem to have to look to Europe and use Europe as a springboard for recognition.

Finally, I refer to the area of Structural Funds. I will await with interest the distribution of the funds available to us, particularly in the area of integrated rural development. Here many communities have come together, submitted projects, drawn up and formulated their plans. I know we were not satisfied with the make-up of the working and advisory groups in relation to local authority representation, as was stated by other Senators here this evening. The Structural Funds are meant to prepare us for the economic impact and the social impact of total integration in 1992. Hopefully, they will not be squandered on projects which do not reflect the basic needs of our community, employment, and, especially, and I emphasise this, the preservation of the social fabric of our rural areas, where I notice that only £5 million is earmarked for the pilot schemes for integrated rural development.

One last point relates to agri-tourism, which appears to be the panacea for all our ills. I would ask how can small farmers, already under pressure, have the managerial and marketing expertise to actually develop agri-tourism? It is a much bandied term, but as far as I am concerned the moneys necessary to give them both managerial and marketing expertise to help them to develop this would certainly need far more than the £5 million that has been earmarked, if we wish to keep people on the land. Again, I would have to make a very quick reference there to the implementation of the proposed Social European Charter. While accepting the NESC report's rather bleak picture of our position, there is much, I believe, that we can work on to achieve its aims.

I would like to express my disappointment with just having four minutes now. Having waited throughout the debate for several days, I now find that at the end of the debate, I am just given four minutes. I would like to voice my objection to that. For that reason, I will just devote myself to one of the areas of five which I wanted to deal with.

I want to welcome the report and its positive aspects, which I was anxious to go into. I will deal with one area that has not been gone into. I think it is regrettable that the report did not deal with the policing implications of 1992, which are going to be very important.

Apart from the reference made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs about three weeks ago, very little has been said about the policing implications of 1992. No debate has taken place in this area. There is no doubt that the objective of 1992 is to have free movement of people without systematic checks of identity or of luggage. Little thought appears to have been extended to the control of criminal movement, drug trafficking and arms movement. The implications for the development of crime must be considered. In relation to the drug problem, a recent report by the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors states:

The scale of the drug problem facing the community is staggering. The Committee of Inquiry reports that there are as many as 1.5 million users of heroin in the Community. It is considered that the Community cannot continue to stand back and allow the ruinous drug trade to continue and grow.

In the face of these facts and implications, the Interpol organisation has said:

The drug sub-division of ICPO Interpol has not undertaken any study or research at all into the proposed free borders in Europe in 1992 in relation to drugs.

The removal of frontier checks within the Community will create a situation similar to that existing in the United States at present, which has a police system consisting of State forces plus an overall body, the FBI, which is a non-uniformed police force. The system has given rise to dissatisfaction and, in fact, the chief of police, the police president in the United States recently said:

At present there is no apparatus to help our nation to mobilise, co-ordinate and focus our multiple law enforcement efforts. Law enforcement at the State and local levels needs a collective voice at national level.

The fragmentation of police forces in the United States has thus been a positive advantage to the criminal elements who have the freedom to move from state to state without local police jurisdiction, while police jurisdiction ends at the state line. A similar situation will exist in Europe after 1992, while it will not have the added advantage of a body like the FBI.

There are two other areas — I know I do not have time to deal with them fully — that are important to mention. One is the fact that it is important to harmonise laws after 1992. If you have disparity of laws, the criminals will concentrate their efforts in the country with the least sanctions, with the police who have least training and least equipment. They will, in fact, base their activities there and from there farm out their operations to the other countries in the Community.

Coicís ó shin tháinig mé anseo le tús a chur leis an díospóireacht ar thuarascáil NESC, agus ó shin i leith bhí díospóireacht bhreá sa Seanad. Ní bheidh ar mo chumas anois, san am atá ar fáil agam, freagra chomh cuimsítheach agus ba mhaith liom a thabhairt ar an díospóireacht sin, ach beidh mé ag plé leis na mór-cheisteanna a hardaíodh.

First, I might deal with the question that was raised by Senator Neville and bring him and other Senators up to date on what is happening in the whole area of free movement of persons and in the area of drugs. I do not know if he is aware or not, but the Council of Justice Ministers have already appointed two groups to report back to the Council. One of these is a co-ordinators' group on the free movement of persons with particular reference to terrorism. The second is a co-ordinators' group on drugs. Both of those are looking at the whole effect that the free movement of people is going to have on those particular areas which are of major concern to all member states, not just to ourselves. They will be reporting back to their Ministers, who in turn, of course, as we know, will report to the internal market Ministers.

It is undoubtedly true that the present time is a most exciting and dynamic period in the EC's development. The Community, after years of stagnation and indecision, is now beginning at last to recover its original momentum and confidence. This is already beginning to be felt on the economic front, with economic growth in the EC now continuing strongly. Real output is expected to expand this year by over 3 per cent and to continue at around this level into next year. These growth rates are higher than in any of the last nine years, with the exception of 1988. Employment is also increasing rapidly. Almost two million net additional jobs were created in 1988 and another two and a half million to three million are expected to be created in 1989-90. As a result, the unemployment rate at EC level is expected to be below 9 per cent next year. The prospects opened up by the internal market have been an important factor in this recovery.

In order to gain the full benefits from these achievements and opportunities, economic policy efforts, as emphasised in a recent Commission document, need to be pursued in two principal directions:

(i) Improvements in the fundamental determinants of growth in the medium term so that all Community countries regain a high level of employment. This is particularly necessary in those countries which need to catch up and will be first to benefit from the Structural Funds.

(ii) Improve further the convergence towards monetary stability and the compatibility of macro-economic performances with sustained and balanced growth. This is necessary so that the recovery of the last seven years does not founder on a resurgence of inflation or unsustainable external or budgetary imbalances. In addition, greater convergence is necessary to achieve greater stability of exchange rates which is also a condition for successful completion of the first stage of the EMU.

The economic policies which we have been pursuing so successfully since 1987 are fully in line with these considerations. The substantial increase in unemployment of nearly 150,000 people in the early to mid-eighties is now being reversed. Unemployment has fallen by nearly 30,000 since March 1987, with most of this fall occurring in the period since the Programme for National Recovery was implemented. From April 1987 to April 1989, total employment grew by 10,000 according to official estimates. Underlying this figure is a gain of 35,000 in employment in the private sector offset by a decline in the public sector.

The continued creation of new jobs and the maintenance of existing ones is the primary objective of the Government's economic policies. To allow continued progress to be made requires a rigorous adherence to the objectives and spirit of the programme. If this is done we can look forward to further improvements in our employment performance.

The original vision of the EC founding fathers is now coming closer to being realised. The Community, as it is developing, will become not just a successful unified economy, able to compete more successfully with its trading partners, such as the US and Japan, in the process, it can also become a model for political co-operation between democratic nations. As borne out by developments over the past year, especially in recent weeks, its attractions for neighbouring countries, whether in the EFTA group or in Eastern Europe, is growing stronger and its influence for peace and justice in the world at large is increasingly recognised.

Our economic future clearly belongs in our fullest participation and on an equal footing with our partners in the Community's further development along lines that serve our interests. Expanding on the themes which I outlined in my address opening this debate, our participation in this development is predicated on the basis that is accompanied by policies that:

reduce the wide regional disparities within the Community; avoid creating or exacerbating social divisions in our society; foster family farming and a vigorous rural economy; provide more effective protection to an increasingly threatened environment; establish an economic and monetary union with the accompanying common policies needed for successful integration and an expanded Community budget; strengthen Europe's capacity in science and technology; and nurture and encourage European culture and intellectual life.

There is, of course, no question of seeking to impose a uniform type of society throughout the Community or of asking our citizens to abandon the rich diversity of their cultures or historical traditions in order to embrace some homogenised European identity. Indeed, those who laid the intellectual foundations for the Community always recognised that cultural diversity was its very essence and one of the distinctive elements which distinguished it from the world's super powers.

I am pleased to note that this strategic approach, which is the one recommended by the NESC and the one which the Government are also pursuing, has also received the board support of Senators during this debate.

I am, however, particularly disappointed that, in her opening remarks in this debate, Senator Avril Doyle launched a vitriolic attack, which was based on totally false premises and inferences, on the Taoiseach and on the Fianna Fáil Party. The House will recall that specifically Senator Doyle charged that my party, when in Opposition, voted against ratification of the Single European Act back in 1986. This is totally untrue. Given the gravity of the charge and the personal attacks which Senator Doyle made against the Taoiseach's integrity, it is important that I respond on this and set the record straight.

The then Fine Gael-Labour Coalition Government did not submit the Single European Act for ratification in the Dáil until very shortly before the deadline set and agreed by all EC partners for its coming into force, namely, 1 January, 1987. This was despite the fact that the SEA had been signed in February 1986 and had been agreed in all its essential details at the European Council in December 1985, almost a year previously. This inordinate delay has never been explained but it is reasonable to surmise that this stemmed from internal divisions between the Fine Gael and Labour parties then in Government.

In an explanatory White Paper on the SEA, which was published only following repeated pressure from my party, the possibility of any constitutional difficulty with the SEA was firmly ruled out. This was confirmed subsequently in the Dáil by the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Peter Barry.

I wish to point out to Senator Doyle that my party have always been positively committed to this country's active participation in the EC. This approach has been consistently followed and never subjected to the U-changes and turn-abouts which she alleged here in this House.

Although we were critical of some aspects of the way the negotiations on the SEA had been conducted, Fianna Fail's position was to support ratification. We had been presented with an unwelcome choice which was stated in the Dáil on 9 December 1986 by our Leader as follows:

It is not possible, now that we have arrived at the ratification stage, to reverse what was agreed during the negotiations. What we must try and do now is preserve what we can in the new situation.

Our attitude at the time was influenced by the precarious state our economy had reached under the then Coalition Government's mishandling, the fact, as now very well documented in the NESC report that regional disparities in the Community had not been narrowed and by the then Government's stance on EC negotiations which seemed to be based on the assumption that we were not entitled to press our interests and that instead we had to accept passively and uncritically what was being proposed.

At the time, and here I am still talking about December 1986, all that was available were textual commitments on cohesion and convergence. As we know from previous experience and negotiations on EC matters, these were not of any great particular benefit unless backed up by solid commitments to increase the size and effectiveness of the Structural Funds. However, in February 1987 the European Commission presented their proposals for the reform of and the doubling of the Structural Funds and these were instrumental in making Fianna Fáil support for the Single European Act much more positive.

The other major difficulty we had related to the SEA's provision for closer co-operation on matters relating to "the political and economic aspects of security". Fianna Fáil sought to have Ireland's policy of military neutrality clearly acknowledged so as to leave no doubt or ambiguity among our EC partners, but this was refused by the then Government.

To ensure that Ireland's interests on these two fundamental matters were protected, we proposed a Declaration to accompany our instrument of ratification of the Single European Act but this was lost in the Dáil by 71 votes to 73. The Government motion affirming the terms of the SEA was subsequently passed without a division. The charge that Fianna Fáil voted against ratification of the SEA is, therefore, totally incorrect. My party's fears were, of course, subsequently confirmed with the Supreme Court judgment on 9 April 1987. As a result, the entry into force of the SEA throughout the Community had to be delayed by six months. The damaging effect of this country's standing could have been avoided had my party's advice been accepted.

I would hope, that Senator Doyle will now accept that she was totally wrong in her charges and would have the good grace to apologise for her unfounded and personal attacks and charges.

I should now like to turn to the proposal that an all-party Oireachtas committee should be established on the implications of the 1992 internal market programme. It has also been proposed that a committee be established to examine and report back on the NESC report. Such committees would merely duplicate the elaborate and extensive arrangements for consultations and debates already available and we on the Government side do not, therefore, see that any useful purpose would be served in their establishment.

In my address opening this debate, I outlined the strengthened EC co-ordination arrangements which we introduced on my party's return to Government in 1987, beginning with my own appointment which involves fulltime Ministerial responsibility in this area. This continues under the present Government. I also went on to highlight how these arrangements were subsequently enhanced further through the European Bureau and the regular meetings of the Committee of Ministers and Department Secretaries. Additionally, we have the Central Review Committee under the Programme for National Recovery as well as the Sectoral Development Committee.

This debate has been used again by Opposition Senators to launch a fresh round of attacks on the innovative arrangements which we introduced for sub-regional participation and consultation in the preparation of our National Development Plan. In responding to specific comments and charges made by Senator Myles Staunton, I should make it clear that, ahead of the EC's Council agreement in this area, we decided in the autumn of 1987 to move towards a programme and co-ordinated basis — as distinct from the project-byproject approach which had prevailed up to then — to ensure that we would be well positioned to avail to the maximum possible extent from the increased assistance from the EC Structural Funds.

The continued sniping by the Opposition, who when in Government consistently refused to introduce any regional arrangements in the use of Structural Funds moneys, is difficult to follow at this stage. The arrangements which we introduced, went further than was necessary under the EC regulations. This we did out of our concern and commitments given to ensure that regional and local knowledge and experience were drawn on, so as to exploit fully all opportunities and make the most effective use of the increases in the Structural Funds. These arrangements had the support of the social partners, through the Central Committee of the Programme for National Recovery and were also welcomed by the European Commission.

This was the first time ever that a national plan was broken down into regional components. Responding to a specific comment from Senator Staunton, I would direct his attention to Chapter 6 of our National Development Plan. There a summary is given of the objectives and strategies as identified by the regional groups and which, in turn, have been taken into account in our development strategy and operational programmes. As will be clear from the financial tables in that chapter, which contains a detailed sectoral and financial breakdown of expenditure, each region will benefit substantially from the development measures and Structural Funds expenditures planned.

Moreover, we have decided to continue these sub-regional arrangements in operation, save with one modification. In the interests of greater effectiveness and interaction, the advisory and working group for each subregion will now be merged into one group, whose function will be to be regularly informed and consulted in the implementation of our operational programmes. As a further and important innovation, the new groups will elect their own chairpersons and secretary and the Commission will now also be represented. Each group will meet at least twice a year.

Considerable publicity has been given to our decision to turn down the Commission's proposal of assistance for Community development. In response, I should like to make it clear that this would not involve additional EC assistance above the levels as now agreed in the Community Support Framework. I should also emphasise that, in the preparation of our National Plan and supporting operational programmes which we forwarded for approval to Brussels the Government fully recognised and took account of the importance of encouraging local development initiatives. Already, State agencies such as the IDA, SFADCo, Údarás na Gaeltachta and FÁS provide a comprehensive range of services to support small business and development initiatives by local community groups. The increased resources which we will be getting from the funds will greatly enhance the capacity of these agencies and, in the circumstances, a separate source of funding would not result in the most effective and efficient use of these resources.

I have already outlined the detailed consultations at national and regional levels which we initiated in the preparation of our National Development Plan and, as I emphasised, these will be continued. The NESC report, which we have been debating in this House, following a similar debate recently in the Dáil, was prepared specifically on the Government's initiative.

At the political level, in addition to the usual parliamentary procedures available in both Houses for debates and information on EC affairs, an additional important role is provided for TDs and Senators through the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Community, which is being reconstituted at present. This committee will, I am sure, do much valuable work during the present term of the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am particularly anxious to ensure that, with a positive and co-operative spirit on all sides, a satisfactory way can be found to ensure that that Committee's reports lead to debates more often in both Houses.

On the CAP, the agricultural issues raised in the NESC report have, understandably, figured prominently in this debate. The Taoiseach has already in the debate in the Dáil given an assurance that the Government will seek to influence the evolution of the CAP along the lines recommended by the NESC. I should also mention that the Minister for Agriculture and Food has established a group to review the agricultural situation and outlook. This group will have consultations with the various farm organisations and experts and will submit a report to the Government in the first half of next year.

The emphasis in the structural policy of the EC on aiding the family farm and on supporting income of farmers in the less-favoured areas needs to be strengthened. The basic EC structures regulation is implemented in Ireland through the farm improvement scheme. Under this scheme, which was introduced in 1986 in replacement for the farm modernisation scheme, grant aid of £29 million has been paid to date to some 33,000 farmers undertaking investments amounting to £185 million. Our National Development plan 1989-1993, forwarded to Brussels last March, and the Community Support Framework drawn up as a result provide for the continuation of this scheme. Compensatory payments — or headage payments as they are more generally known — are also paid and are a most effective method of increasing the income of farmers in less-favoured areas and so stabilising the population in such areas. In the current year some £57 million is being paid in headage, of which the community is contributing 50 per cent.

On the questions raised in the debate relating to the extension and reclassification of the disadvantaged areas, on 4 February 1987 the then Government submitted to the EC a proposal that all Ireland's less severely handicapped areas be reclassified to more severely handicapped area status. The EC turned this proposal down because they stated no evidence had been produced to justify this widespread reclassification. It was made quite clear to this country that such evidence would have to be produced to justify any large-scale reclassification or, indeed, any designation of areas as disadvantaged for the first time.

If the EC insists — as it does — on evidence in the form of the required economic data to justify reclassification of areas already designated as handicapped, then it will insist even more so on such evidence to justify the designation of an area as handicapped for the first time. The criteria laid down for such designation in Ireland are (a) stocking rate must not equal or exceed 1 livestock unit per hectare (b) the percentage of ploughed land must not exceed 7.8 per cent (c) family farm income must not exceed 80 per cent of national average (d) population must not exceed 27 per square kilometre (e) at least 30 per cent of working population must be engaged in agriculture. These are cirteria set by the EC and it is completely unrealistic, as was suggested in this debate, to suggest that they be blithely ignored in a submission to the EC to have all of the country designated as disadvantaged.

The Department of Agriculture and Food are at present processing the data obtained from two survey exercise on computer. When that processing is completed, proposals will be submitted to the Government to approve the lists of areas deemed eligible according to EC criteria for inclusion or for reclassification. It is hoped that this can be done before the end of 1989 and, following Government approval of the lists, we will immediately make a formal submission to the Commission.

It is difficult to estimate how long it will take to obtain EC approval or when payments can be made in the new or reclassified areas. Senators can rest assured, however, that we will make every effort to expedite EC approval and that the necessary funding for headage payments will be provided in due course.

In addition to these horizontal steps, a number of regional measures have been operated in recent years, tailored to the specific requirements of Irish small farmers, such as the western drainage scheme. The western package was extended further last year to provide for farmyard pollution control schemes and a scheme of grants to assist farmers in housing animals. These schemes were designed with the needs of the small farmer in mind. Earlier this year the pollution control and animal housing scheme was extended to the country as a whole by way of an operational programme approved by the EC Commission, and again the scheme is designed to meet the needs of the small farmer.

It is fully accepted that, with changes in the CAP and restrictions on production in traditional sectors, there is a need to diversify agriculture and to assist farmers to engage in non-traditional enterprises. A first step in that direction was taken earlier this year with the introduction of an agri-tourism programme in the less-favoured areas. This will be elaborated and expedited when the operational programme for rural development, at present being drawn up by the Department of Agriculture and Food, is launched, probably early next year. Meanwhile, of course, a pilot programme on integrated rural development is already in operation in 12 selected areas throughout the country since October 1988. On completion of this two-year programme, the Government will have gained valuable experience in the field of rural development and this will assist in determining how the policy is to be operated for the future.

The importance of co-operatives in Ireland is evident from the fact that cumulatively they account for an annual turnover of well in excess of £2 billion. There is no doubt that they have had a profound influence on the development of Irish agriculture, particularly in the dairy sector. The nature and extent of the changes which have occurred in the operation of the EC milk régime, notably the imposition of milk quotas, combined with the prospect of the completion of the internal market leaves our milk industry with no option but to reorganise itself. Rationalisation and reorganisation have been advocated not alone by the Government but by the Irish Co-operative Organisation Society in its publication Strategy for the Irish Dairy Industry published in 1987. Ultimately, however, restructuring is a matter for determination by the industry itself but it should be remembered that restructuring is not an end in itself but rather a means to an end. The object of the exercise must be to arrive at a situation where our milk industry can produce, process and market our national quota to the best advantage.

The co-operatives have shown already that they are prepared to adapt to the changing and challenging circumstances and this is reflected in the exceptional performance of the dairy sector in recent years. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that the co-operative movement realises that much remains to be done in the re-adaptation process and for the emergence of a revitalised and strengthened co-operative structure.

An important issue raised in the debate has been the need to expand the beef cow herd. We are making significant progress in this area. After several years of decline I am delighted to see that the breeding herd is now on the increase.

The attractive package of grants available for beef cattle will underpin further development. This includes headage payments and the special beef premium. The changes in the beef regime mean that we have to rely much more on the return from the market rather than on EC support. A particularly welcome development has been the special arrangement between some factories and farmers to produce once-calved heifers. This is a great example of co-operation between farm and factory and I would like to see more initiatives in this area.

In this period of rapid change we have emphasised to the Council of Ministers and to the Commission that the agreement to give special recognition for our beef industry must be implemented in full. While cattle prices are not now as high as they were last year they are — with the assistance of some price supports — higher than they were in any other of the last five years. With low inflation and high investment we are poised for national economic growth. Against this background, the beef industry faces unique opportunities as the supply of calves from the increased breeding herd will be coming on stream in the run-up to 1992.

We are, of course, participating constructively in the present Uruguay Round of multilateral trade negotiations. Along with our EC partners, we have made it very clear on numerous occasions that we are not prepared to abandon the basic principles of the CAP and the Community's capacity to maintain a viable rural society.

The Community's attitude to the recent US paper, which has the general backing of the Cairns Group, is that this would be a retrograde step for the GATT negotiations and for the progress achieved in the April mid-term agreement. It is a turning back to the position adopted by the US at the mid-term review in Montreal. It is difficult to assess why the US has produced such a controversial paper at this crucial stage of the negotiations. They have said that it is a "negotiating document" so perhaps this can be exploited when the proposals from all contracting parties, including the Community, are being examined with a view to deciding on the commitments which have to be made. It is indeed difficult to see farmers' representatives in the US Congress accepting the scope of these proposals. The Community for its part has already submitted proposals on short-term reform and the Commission is now working on a long-term paper. While the latter paper will obviously have to contain some difficult commitments, the Commission has repeatedly stated that the fundamental principles of the CAP cannot be called into question.

Ireland has adopted a consistent approach throughout all of these negotiations in that we are prepared to undertake commitments as long as they do not undermine the fundamental mechanisms of the CAP, thus seriously affecting farmers' incomes and curtailing export trade; credit is obtained for the reform measures the Community has put in place in the last year; there are balanced commitments from all contracting parties.

In addition, in our discussions with the Commission we have stressed the need for supply and price discipline on world markets if balance is to be sustained. We see little point in the Community continuing to cut production if other parties move in to take advanage of this situation and thus undermine world prices.

The Community, both as a major exporter and importer, has a real interest in the liberalisation and stability of world trade and we recognise the need for reform. We are confident that our producers, processors and traders have the ability to exploit the opportunities which will be available to them in a more liberalised and stable trading system. The Minister for Agriculture and Food ensures that all the interests involved are kept informed of developments in the negotiations through the special GATT group which he established last year.

Since the Commission's original tax proposals were formulated and presented in 1987, progress has been slow. Because the debate touches on sensitive economic, budgetary and social questions and because tax systems differ widely across the Community, it has not proved possible to achieve a consensus as yet on a definitive tax package. Nevertheless, this is a key element of the total 1992 programme which will have to be pushed ahead with all possible speed. Obviously, it will be one of the important dossiers on the negotiating table when Ireland assumes the Presidency in January next.

As I have said, while progress to date has been slow, some useful work has been done since the Commission adopted a revised approach to harmonisation earlier this year. Regular and intensive discussions have taken place under the French Presidency within a special ad hoc working group set up on the instructions of the Council of Finance Ministers in June last. This signifies the urgency that attaches to the work. Firms as well as Governments must have a firm basis on which to prepare for 1992. Some advances have been made. These have been in regard to the structure of the VAT system.

The major decision taken by the Council of Ministers is to retain zero-VAT rating of exports instead of adopting the Commission proposal to tax all goods at the exporting country's rate. This decision means that there will be no need for a clearing house mechanism to ensure that the appropriate tax is transferred to the country in which the goods are consumed. This is a welcome move from the Government's point of view and, equally importantly, from the viewpoint of Irish exporters who were concerned about the impact of the Commission's proposal on their competitiveness.

There is also general agreement that, both in relation to VAT and excises, effective control arrangements must be put in place to prevent tax evasion. These arrangements must be consistent with the need to reduce the burden of administration on both traders and tax authorities. Detailed work in this area will continue under the Irish Presidency.

The latest discussions in the Council of Finance Ministers show that agreement on the thorny question of VAT rates is still difficult to achieve. This is to be discussed again in December. The whole question of rates of excise also requires detailed discussion on the basis of the new proposals, involving minimum rates of tax, from the Commission.

Senators will be aware that harmonisation in the context of 1992 could involve an unsustainable revenue loss for Ireland. This fact has been explained and elaborated upon in Council discussions and there is evidence that the extent of our problem is recognised both by our fellow members and by the Commission. There will be pressure on us to align our rates closely with those in the UK. At the latest meeting of the Council of Finance Ministers it was agreed that the particular situation of Ireland will be the subject of specific arrangements on the basis of Commission proposals within the general tax harmonisation framework. The Government will be endeavouring to ensure that these arrangements take full account of our special position while enabling us to participate effectively in the advance towards the single market.

I was very pleased by the level of interest shown by Senators in this debate. Of course, this is not surprising given the central importance of the subject matter of the NESC report in our national life. As will be obvious from what I have said, I cannot agree with each and every one of the views expressed in the debate but, nevertheless, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to all the contributors.

Tá mé buíoch de na Seanadóirí ar gach aon taobh den Teach as ucht a raibh le rá acu sa díospóireacht. Glacaim buíochas leat féin freisin a Leas-Chathaoirligh, as ucht do chomhoibriú.

Question put and agreed to.
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