Before we commence Committee Stage I should like to correct a misprint on the list of amendments. The heading to amendment No. 5 should read section 7, not section 6.
Marine Institute Bill, 1989: Committee and Final Stages.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Amendments Nos. 1 and 4 are related and may be discussed together.
I move amendment No. 1:
In page 3, line 33, after "Act" to insert "and the headquarters of the Institute shall be established in Galway".
Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire, ar ais arís, as an mBille seo. Nuair a bhí an Bille á léamh agus á phlé cheana, bhí sé an-soiléir domsa, ar chaoi ar bith, go raibh locht bunúsach ann sa mhéid gur aisteach liom nach mbeadh aon cheannáras nó croílár le Bille á chur a fheidhmiú agus á chur ag obair i gceart. Is cuma cén rannóg Stáit, nó eagraíocht, nó institiúid, bíodh sí ina institiúid oideachasúil, nó institiúid mhara nó tógála, is cuma cén institiúid í is cinnte gur chóir agus gur cheart go mbeadh ceannáras ag an áit sin. Agus is locht bunúsach sa Bhille seo nach bhfuil ceannáras luaite ann.
Is cúis an-díoma domsa, agus do go leor daoine eile, gurb é atá i gceist anseo go bunúsach ná Bille a chur tríd an Teach seo agus gan aon cheann ar an mBille sin, gan aon áit go bhféadfaí dul go dtí é le labhairt faoi. Tá sé ráite sa Bhille go mbeidh muid ag tarraingt as gach cuid agus gach gné de rud ar bith a bhfuil baint aige leis an bhfarraige, le hiascaireacht, le próiseálú éisc, nó staidéar a dhéanamh ar éisc, go bhfuil siad sin le fáil againn sna hinstitiúidí éagsúla timpeall na tíre; go bhfuil cuid den rud seo nó cuid de na dlithe seo nó cuid de na haidhmeanna seo, go bhfuil siad lonnaithe in oifig Roinn na Mara; go bhfuil cuid de na haidhmeanna seo sna hollscoileanna, in Ollscoil na Gaillimhe, in Ollscoil Chorcaí agus i gcuid de na coláistí réigiúnda, ar nós Choláiste Réigúnda na Gaillimhe san ionad taighde i gCarna agus go bhfuil daoine éagsúla in áiteanna éagsúla ag plé le Roinn na Mara nó Foras na Mara, nó rud ar bith a bhaineann le hiascaireacht.
Mar a mhínigh mé cheana, nuair a bhíomar ag caint faoi seo, tá obair anmhór an-phraiticiúil agus an-tábhachtach déanta ag Údarás na Gaeltachta ó thaobh impleachtaí an Bhille seo. Tá rannóg ar leith istigh in Údarás na Gaeltachta ar a dtugtar Rannóg Taighde agus Forbartha. Is indíreach an aidhm atá leis an mBille seo, go mbeadh taighde ar bhonn sheasta, go mbeadh eolas á bhailiú, go mbeadh cinnidh á ndéanamh agus go mbeadh áit nó forum nó ceannáras cinnte ar fáil agus go bhféadfaí úsáid a bhaint as an gceannáras sin le go dtabharfaí measúlacht don Bhille, don rannóg agus do Roinn na Mara féin.
Sin atá ar siúl ag Údarás na Gaeltachta ó thuaidh i nDún na nGall agus neart triallacha taighde ar bun acu faoi láthair, faoi dhúraicíní, shloigéisc agus nithe den chineál sin. Tá sé déanta acu go mór i dtaobh fheilméireacht bhradán agus breac; tá siad ag plé leis na ruacain, abalone agus go leor cineálacha eile éisc agus sliogéisc. Tá go leor airgid curtha ag obair ag Údarás na Gaeltachta sna nithe sin le blianta anuas. Ba airgead é freisin nach raibh sé éasca theacht air mar bhí go leor daoine ar bhord an Údaráis a bhí ag iarraidh go gcaithfí an t-airgead céanna le monarchana a tógáil agus le eachtrannaigh a thabhairt isteach le monarchana a chur ar bun.
Thuig an tÚdarás i gcónaí gur acmhainn nádúrtha é seo, gur forbairt é ar shaol mhuintir an iarthair, shaol mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus shaol mhuintir an chósta thiar, an chósta ó dheas agus timpeall an chósta uilig. Mar sin, bíodh go raibh brú mór ar an Údarás anuas tríd na blianta gan an oiread sin airgid a bheith á chaitheamh acu ar fhorbairt agus ar theicneolaíocht agus ar thaighde, lean siad ar aghaidh leo agus rinneadar é sin.
Tá go leor den toradh sin le feiceáil. Ní fheicimse sa Bhille seo aon aitheantas tugtha don eagraíocht seo le go bhféadfaí rud a dhaingniú sa chuspóir a chuir siad rompu agus go bhféadfadh siad leanstan leis an gcuspóir sin. Gabhfaidh mé uaidh sin go dtí Ollscoil na Gaillimhe, agus tá go leor oibre déanta ag Ollscoil na Gaillimhe, anuas tríd na blianta, ag an Ollamh Ó Céide agus a rannóg, rannóg atá ag plé leis an bhfarraige agus le staidéar agus le forbairt a dhéanamh ann. Bhí Ollscoil na Gaillimhe, agus tá i gcónaí, ag plé le hÚdarás na Gaeltachta faoi na nithe seo. Mar is eol daoibh, tá ceannáras Údarás na Gaeltachta suite i nGaeltacht na Gaillimhe. Níl sé ach seacht nó ocht de mhílte ó chósta Chois Fharraige, siar ó chathair na Gaillimhe, agus tá dlúthbhaint ag an Údarás le rannóg na mara agus le taighde na mara istigh i nGaillimh, anbhaint go deo acu le feilméireacht éisc agus sliogéisc agus forbairt shliogéisc agus taighde sna nithe sin.
Is minic iad ag comhoibriú le chéile agus ag cur seimineáir ar bun faoi chuile shórt den chineál sin. Sin dhá eagraíocht anois atá lonnaithe i nGaillimh, i gcathair na Gaillimhe nó gar do chathair na Gaillimhe, go bhfuil dlúthbhaint acu le feilméireacht éisc, le taighde faoi fheilméireacht éisc agus le chuile chineál iascaireachta. An tríú eagraíocht atá thart orainn i nGaillimh ná an t-ionad taighde i gCarna faoi Ollscoil na Gaillimhe. Rinne daoine ar nós Dr. Mercier ó Ollscoil na Gaillimhe, agus a chomhleacaithe agus a chairde, taighde iontach ar bheagán airgid. Is trua liomsa inniu go bhfuil mé i mo sheasamh anseo agus ag rá leis an Teach seo go bhfuil an t-ionad sin i mbaol a dhúnta agus churtha den saol ceal tacaíochta, ceal airgid, ceal cúnaimh chirt. Is alltacht liom go bhfuilimid ag cur Bille tríd an Teach seo, Bille um Fhoras na Mara, agus ag an am céanna go bhfuil ceann de na hinstitiúidí, an institiúid is sine agus ardnósaí atá againn sa tír seo, atá ag plé le taighde agus le forbairt, i mbaol a dhúnta agus nach mbeidh sí ann níos mó ceal chúnamh airgid. Tá siad ag leanstan ar aghaidh ar a míle dícheall ar iarraidh rud éigin a dhéanamh faoi seo.
Chomh maith leis an trí dhream seo, Údarás na Gaeltachta, Ollscoile na Gaillimhe agus an tIonad Taighhde i gCarna, tá oifig ag BIM i nGaillimh agus tá calafoirt i nGaillimh agus calafort iascaireachta i Ros a' Mhíl. Mar sin, tá chuile shórt, i mo thuairimse, bailithe timpeall chathair na Gaillimhe le go mbeadh Institiúid na Mara bunaithe go hoifigiúil i nGaillimh. Tá a fhios agam gur tugadh gealltanas poiblí ar ócáidí ar leith i nGaillimh, go mbeadh an institiúid, ach í bheith bunaithe, lonnaithe i nGaillimh. Níl mé ag iarraidh a bhaint ó mo chomh Sheanadóir, John A. Murphy, go bhfuil seisean, dar ndóigh, ag iarraidh go mbeadh sí lonnaithe i gCorcaigh. Tá a fhios agam go maith go bhfuil obair mhaith déanta ag muintir Chorcaí agus ag Ollscoil Chorcaí, go bhfuil forbairt mhór ar bun ar chósta Chorcaí agus siar go Ciarraí, agus ar an taobh eile soir chomh fada le Dún Garbháin agus na háiteanna sin.
Níl aon dabht agamsa go ndéanfadh an Seanadóir cás maith go mbeadh an institiúid lonnaithe i gCorcaigh. Fágfaidh mé sin faoi siúd é a dhéanamh. Ach ag deireadh an lae, cibé áit a mbeidh sé, i nGaillimh nó i gCorcaigh, is cóir agus is ceart go mbeadh sé lonnaithe agus go mbeadh ceannáras ann; go dtuigfeadh daoine agus an saol go bhfuil an acmhainn nádúrtha is tábhachtaí atá againn sa tír seo. Oileán muid atá timpeallaithe le farraige agus ba cheart go dtuigfeadh an tír go bhfuilimid ag cur Bille tríd an Seanad seo, Bille ar a dtugtar Bille um Fhoras na Mara agus go mbeidh an Bille seo gan chiall, gan éifeacht, mura mbeidh ceannáras aige. Níl maith ar bith le gluaiseacht ar bith, le rannóg ar bith, mura bhfuil ceannáras aige.
Is cuma céard é ar an saol seo é, tá ceannáras ag an GAA, Muintir na Tíre, Bantracht na Tuaithe, ag chuile eagraíocht sa tír seo. An chiall atá le ceannáras, go bhfuil áit dhaingean, dhocht gur féidir dul ann agus go mbeadh aitheantas á thabhairt don áit sin, go mbaineann sí agus go seasann sí do rud speisialta. Mar sin, is laige mhór sa Bhille, uimhir a haon, nach bhfuil sé luaite nó nach bhfuil sé cinnte go mbeidh ceannáras ann. Má tá sé le bheith ag Roinn na Mara anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath, bheadh sé chomh ceart gan aon Bhille bheith ann, beag nó mór, mar is é an phríomhshamhail atá taobh thiar den Bhille seo go mbeadh teacht le chéile ag lucht taighde na mara agus go mbeadh siad in ann a gcuid tuairimí agus chuile shórt a chur le chéile agus iad á dtabhairt le chéile.
Cén chaoi is féidir leo a leithéid a dhéanamh mura bhfuil ceannáras ann? Níl aon mhaith a rá go mbeidh sé á fheidhmiú amach as Roinn na Mara i mBaile Átha Cliath. Caithfidh sé bheith ceangailte le hinstitiúid nó áit éigin atá ag déanamh taighde agus forbartha, nó a bhfuil a leithéid d'obair ar siúl inti. Os comhair an Tí anocht tá dhá áit molta. Tá Ollscoil na Gaillimhe, nó cathair na Gaillimhe, b'fhéidir go bhféadfaí an ceannáras a bheith mar chuid d'Ollscoil na Gaillimhe mar chuid d'Údarás na Gaeltachta, agus nach gá, go fisiciúil, na foirgnimh seo a thógáil, ach tá sé soiléir, agus tá sé riachtanach go bhféadfaí an Bille seo a leasú sa chaoi is go mbeidh ainm áite luaite le go bhféadfaí a rá go mbeidh Institiúid na Mara lonnaithe in áit éigin agus foireann dá réir acu agus a fhios ag daoine gur ann atá sé.
Mar sin, a Chathaoirligh, tá mé ag moladh roinn a trí ansin, fo-roinn a haon, "The Headquarters of the Institute shall be established in Galway", mar an chuid sin den leasú.
Aontaím leis an Seanadóir Ó Foighil sa mhéid gur locht an-mhór ar an mBille seo nach bhfuil sé i gceist go mbeidh aon cheanncheathrú ag an institiúid nua. Tá an argóint déanta aige go héifeachtach agus ní gá dom dul isteach níos mine sa scéal. Faoi mar atá ráite aige, ní thógfaidh éinne an rud seo i ndáiríre mura mbeidh lárionad fisiciúil ag an institiúid. Ní bheidh ann, is baolach, ach fo-roinn de Roinn na Mara. Mar sin, chun pearsantacht a thabhairt don institiúid, caithfear lárú éigin a dhéanamh ar an institiúid agus tagaim leis sa mhéid sin ar fad agus tá an chúis déanta aige go maith. Nílim ag fáil lochta ar an nGaillimh, ar ndóigh, mar tá sárobair déanta ag Ollscoil na Gaillimhe sa saothar seo ar fad.
An lá eile, nuair a bhí an dara céim den Bhille á plé anseo againn, luaigh mé go greannmhar go raibh an Seanadóir Pól Ó Foighil go maith chun an Conamara Boat Song a chanadh. Ní raibh ansin ach greann, ach moladh a bhí ann chomh maith. Ach caithfidh mé mo chúis féin a chur ar aghaidh. Ní hé go bhfuil aon locht agam ar Ghaillimh ach éilím gur mó an teideal atá ag Corcaigh chun ceanncheathrú na hinstitiúide bheith ansin.
The Minister referred in his Second Stage speech to the matter of a central location and indicated that it would be a waste of resources to have the institute located on any single campus or to set up a physical centre for the institute. That might be arguable were we starting from scratch and there were no established centres of experience and expertise in the area of marine research. That is not the case. There would not be any inordinate expenditure in setting up a physical centre since at least two readymade centres are available. The only difference between Senator Ó Foighil and me is that we are arguing the respective merits of the two centres.
We are united in opposing the Minister's view and we would remind him of the general principle of decentralisation. If the Marine Institute is not located outside Dublin it seems that the whole principle of decentralisation is a mockery. There is no substance in the Minister's reservations in regard to a physical centre for the institute. As Senator Ó Foighil so eloquently argued, the institute must have a habitation and a name. He rightly points out that those organisations which are a force in the life of the nation are readily recognisable by the fact that they are located in a particular area and have physical dimensions.
Although I readily acknowledge the excellent work being done in Galway, I would submit that Cork's claims are more comprehensive in that the marine-related activities in the Cork area — in the university and throughout the county — cover a greater range of marine expertise than is the case in Galway. I referred in my Second Stage speech to the work of the marine and coastal resources group in University College Cork which is the general umbrella in UCC co-ordinating the marine work of as many as 11 departments, with an extensive range of research being carried on leading to post graduate degrees. There is also in Cork an unrivalled marine engineering hydraulic research station which is entirely separate from the zoology department. The work of the hydraulics and maritime research laboratory is unique in Ireland and has attracted research funding from Eolas and from the European Community and so on. This bears out my claim that it is not just a question of the Zoology Department providing disease diagnostic services and analysis of vital importance to fish farms and shellfish farms but that quite a different area of engineering is going on in the hydraulics and maritime research laboratory. I will not labour that point. I dwelt on it on Second Stage.
Outside UCC but connected with it there are other activities of great renown; the Lough Hyne research station near Baltimore is acknowledged by the Community to be the first marine reserve area and the admirable work being carried out under the direction of Mr. Matt Murphy in Sherkin Island. All this, allied to the extensive fish development in Bantry Bay and the Beara Peninsula, constitutes a more comprehensive claim than that put forward by Galway which would make Cork an eminently suitable location for the headquarters of the institute.
When I say all that I am aware I am making an opening bid as it were and I am pitching my suggestion very highly. In the end it seems to me that what is more important than Cork or Galway winning the case is that the Minister should recognise the importance of the Marine Institute having a headquarters and a central location.
Part of the unsatisfactory nature of this Bill is its vagueness. There is vagueness about its relations with existing bodies, with the relationship of the research it proposes to sponsor with the existing research and part of that vagueness is the lack of any identity which would be provided by a central location and a headquarters. These are the reasons I am proposing in my amendment that the headquarters of the Institute shall be established in Cork.
Limerick West): I thank Senators for their contributions. As I explained fully in my contribution on Second Stage, the purpose of this Bill is to co-ordinate and to bring together all the different agencies which are now carrying out marine research. As I pointed out there are ten, 12 or 13 agencies involved and it is desirable at this stage that those agencies be brought together in a comprehensive and cohesive manner.
Of course, I agree that the institute should have a headquarters but not a headquarters whereby all the agencies will come together physically. The headquarters will be a headquarters to co-ordinate the work of the existing agencies. The headquarters which I envisage will be a small central headquarters which will be staffed by a chief executive and some administrative personnel. It is not intended that all research will move from their current locations. This would be wrong because research by its very nature must be carried out in diverse locations. As indicated the headquarters will co-ordinate all this work.
The institute will have a headquarters where people can go and get certain information on all marine-related matters in one place. Therefore, it is important that there is co-ordination of all the agencies. The agencies which are now operating will continue to operate in a variety of locations as heretofore. Both Senators have made a very fine case for the location of the headquarters either in Cork or in Galway. I am sure if we had Senators present from other areas they could equally make a good case to locate the headquarters elsewhere.
If they were interested they would be here.
(Limerick West): It is very important that the institute would have a headquarters. It would be inappropriate at this stage to specify or to write into legislation where the headquarters should be located. For that reason I am opposed to both amendments. The location of the headquarters of the Marine Institute is not a matter to be enshrined in legislation.
I am in complete disagreement with the Minister because, as I have explained already, if we do not have a headquarters or a functional area there is no use talking about a Bill. I cannot accept that it will not be written into the Bill that we have Galway as a headquarters for the Marine Institute. There is no reason it cannot be done. It was promised by his Government on a number of occasions that it would be established in Galway. Therefore, if it has been promised that Galway is a suitable place to have the Marine Institute set up, it stands to reason it should be mentioned in the Bill.
When Bills are passed names of places and buildings are used. Having regard to the Bill in question it is not inappropriate to have Galway specified in it. I refer also to the considerable research on marine life which has taken place in Connemara. It would be a great boost to the morale of the west if that area was named in the Bill. I cannot agree with the Minister on that point.
I omitted a point which I made in my Second Stage contribution but it is appropriate that I should make it here again, that is that a memorandum was drawn up by a combination of Cork bodies in June 1987 when the corporation, the County Council, the harbour commissioners, UCC, the regional technical college actually made a case — the one I am making now — that the proposed location of Roinn na Mara, including the marine research and technology institute — as it was called at that time — should be Cork. Obviously there have been some changes in titles and developments since that was put forward but the case is there. I am not making this case as a single individual, as an eccentric case. I am reflecting a widespread view in UCC and throughout the county that there is a very solid case for choosing Cork as a suitable location. That is a very solid base for the case I have been making.
Like Senator Ó Foighil, I find the Minister's attitude disappointing. Do I take it from what the Minister said that the position has not yet been decided on, that he is not giving a blunt "no" to the suggestions that the institute should have a headquarters somewhere? Is he simply saying it should not be put in the legislation? Does that mean we can look forward at some point to seeing a letter-heading, as it were, when the chief executive and his staff are corresponding with people, a letter-heading which will say "Foras na Mara, Gaillimhe,""Foras na Mara, Corcaigh"; that this is yet a possibility? I should like a clarification on that point from the Minister.
(Limerick West): As I indicated just now, there will be a headquarters. All I am saying at this stage is that the location of the headquarters should not be specified in legislation. Because of the diverse locations of marine research at present it would be impractical and, indeed, not appropriate to locate physically all the marine research agencies in one location. I repeat that there will be a headquarters. All I am saying is its location should not be enshrined in legislation. It is most unusual that locations or headquarters be indicated in legislation but the specific answer to Senator Murphy's question is that there will be a headquarters.
I remind the Minister that so basic a document as Bunreacht na hÉireann specifies that the President's establishment shall be in Dublin.
Is é an seanscéal arís é — there will be and we will make sure there is going to be a location. Mar a deir an sean fhocal, mair a chapaill agus gheobhair féar. Live horse and you will get grass. Tá mise anseo ag cur an chás le hagaidh na Gaillimhe. I want to make the case, and I have made it as strong as I possibly can, for Galway. I would not be so strong in making it if it were not for the Minister's own party. They have been very strong in advocating and saying in public that the headquarters of Foras na Mara will be in Galway. Therefore, there is nothing new about this. There is nothing strange about it. We should not be ashamed to have the name of Galway enshrined in an Act of Parliament any more than to have Baile Átha Cliath no, aon áit eile enshrined in legislation. The Minister says it may be possible to provide for a location but this is the time to do so, not after the Bill has been enacted. If we get that small item through, at least it will give some boost to the west to know that definitely and for good Foras na Mara will be established and be a part of Galway, a part of the university, a part of Údarás na Gaeltachta, a part of BIM, a part of research all around the Connemara coast.
I cannot understand the Minister not agreeing to have the institute established once and for all in Galway. If his own party were against it or wanted to move it somewhere else I could understand the political manipulation and the moves that would take place. In this case it has been lauded and spoken of publicly at functions in Galway that nuair a bheidh Foras na Mara bunaithe go mbeidh an ceannáras suite i nGaillimhe. It will be established in Galway. There are pleanty of buildings in Galway to accommodate Foras na Mara for a start up. I just cannot accept the Minister's explanation on that point.
Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 19.
Tá
- Hederman, Carmencita.
- Hourigan, Richard V.
- Howard, Michael.
- Jackman, Mary.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Murphy, John A.
- Neville, Daniel.
- Ó Foighil, Pól.
- O'Reilly, Joe.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Staunton, Myles.
Níl
- Bennett, Olga.
- Byrne, Sean.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Dardis, John.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Foley, Denis.
- Lydon, Don.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- Raftery, Tom.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Ryan, Eoin David.
- Wright, G. V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Ó Foighil and Howard: Níl, Senators McGowan and Wright.
Amendment declared lost.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 are related and may be discussed together.
I move amendment No. 2:
In page 4, line 10, to delete "advise the Minister on" and substitute "formulate".
Is é an fáth go bhfuil mé ag caint ar an leasú seo ná, de réir an Bhille seo agus de réir an méid atá ráite anseo, go bhfuil chuile chomhacht fágtha i lámha an Aíre. Táimid ag bunú Acht le go mbeadh saoirse faoin Acht sin ag na daoine atá ag feidhmiú, is é sin ag na hoifigigh, an coiste agus an bord a bheas bunaithe. Deirtear go mbeidh an institiúid seo ann d'aon turas "to advise the Minister on policy relating to marine research and development." Dar liomsa, tá neart comhairleoirí ag Aire na Mara. Is é an smaoineamh agus an prionsabal atá sa Bhille seo ná go mbeadh neámhspleáchas ag na daoine a bheidh ag plé leis, that they would have a good degree of independence from the State, the Department and the Minister. If you contrast the Bill with other legislation of its type, for example, an institute in France — a dhéanann na rudaí seo go léir chomh maith céanna, tá siad beag beann ar an Aire. Níl siad ann d'aon turas chun comhairle a chur ar an Aire. The French Institute's function is not specifically to advise the Minister on oceanography in France, and it is one of the most successful institutes of marine research in the world. Tá sé ann d'aon turas le go mbeadh na daoine seo le chéile, is é sin, lucht gnótha, business people, lucht taighde. I am referring specifically to the French system where the business people and the researchers, together, formulate policy and they do not have to refer to the French Minister for the Marine. Tá sé cruthaithe gur éirigh go maith leis. It has succeeded admirably as a research institute and we should be guided by the experience of effective institutes throughout the world.
Mar sin, ní maith liom an téarmaíocht seo "to advise the Minister on policy matters, mar tá neart comhairleoirí aige. The Minister already has plenty of advisers to advise him on marine matters but we are establishing a research institute on marine matters and it is right that it should be removed from the ambit of the Department as such. That was one of the principal reasons I suggested that the institute should have its headquarters in Galway. Ba mhaith liom go dtarraingeofaí amach as lár-ionad na cathrach seo. Dílárú a bhí i gceist agam. I think we should decentralise Government bodies, where better to decentralise bodies relating to the fishing industry — agus gach rud a bhaineann leis a chur siar go Gaillimh. Táim cinnte nuair a thiocfas an t-am cuí i nGaillimh a bheidh sé, de réir mar atá ráite ag lucht an Rialtais go dtí seo le muintir na Gaillimhe. One of the reasons I want to decentralise this institute is to remove it from the Department of the Marine and bring it out of Dublin so that it can be truly seen for what it is supposed to be, an institute directly involved with marine matters on the west and south coasts and the coastal areas generally.
Acting Chairman (Mr. S. Ryan)
Is the Senator speaking on section 3 or section 4?
I am speaking on section 4, amendment No. 2, to delete the words "advise the Minister on". If a marine institute is to have authority, its function should be to formulate policy on its own and not merely advising the Minister. Is the Chair suggesting I am making a speech?
Acting Chairman
No, I thought the Senator was speaking on section 3.
I only wanted to show the inter-relationship between sections 3 and 4. If we want to decentralise this body, we should get as far away from the centre of decision making in Dublin. I am asking that the Bill be amended so that the institute will have the power to formulate policy and not merely have the role of advising the Minister. The institute can act very independently in formulating policy if the Minister is not involved. I am not saying that at the end of the day the Minister is not responsible for everything that happens in marine affairs, but it should be left to the institute to formulate policy on marine research and development.
Tá mé ag iarraidh go ndeanfaí é sin sa Bhille seo. I am also asking that we delete the words "as may be specified by the Minister". Section 4 (2) (a) and section 4 (2) (b) are related and refer to functions.
Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis sin. The proposed amendment sums up what is wrong with the Bill and the potential that the institute would have if the section were phrased differently. As the text stands, the institute is reduced to a tame ministerial committee, a committee under the thumb of the Minister, which will be indistinguishable from a Civil Service advisory committee. That seems to me to epitomise the whole defect in the approach to drafting the legislation. People expected — I mean the marine researchers of one kind or another who are looking forward to this belated legislation — and hoped that the Marine Institute would have teeth and would be an independent and autonomous body. These people will be bitterly disappointed to see the institute reduced to a tame committee. It would be rather like having legislation which would put the Institute for Advanced Studies under the direction of the Department of Education. That is the bureaucratic mentality we are talking about, and which I find incomprehensible. The idea that everything must be under the Minister's direction in case somebody showed the slightest spark of independence is incomprehensible and it will certainly emasculate the proceedings of the institute. It is an insult to the people who will be involved in the Marine Institute. After all, these are responsible and experienced researchers who are very unlikely to propose or to take any proceedings that would be contrary to the public interest. I cannot see why they cannot be trusted. It is as simple as that. I strongly support the proposed amendments.
(Limerick West): I thank the Senators for their intervention. I am opposed to the amendment. I cannot accept the argument that the institute should formulate policy. The purpose of the Bill is for the institute to advise the Minister, and as I have indicated earlier, to co-ordinate the work of the different agencies who are doing research at present. The formulation of policy in regard to marine research and devoelopment will and should continue to be the responsibility of the Government, particularly the Minister of the day. The function of the institute will be to advise the Minister with regard to formulation of policy. I cannot agree with the contention that it will constitute merely a tame ministerial committee; it will be very far from that. The membership of this institute will comprise personnel of a very high calibre. The purpose of the establishment of this institute is to have people of a very high calibre to advise the Minister on policy from time to time. I cannot accept the contention that this provision would constitute an insult to its members or that they would be disappointed by it. The members of the institute will realise that their sole function will be to advise the Minister on marine research and development.
I must record my disappointment that the Minister has not seen fit to take my amendment on board. I must also record my disappointment that the drafters of this Bill did not go further and broaden their horizons having ascertained what obtains in other countries. I have already referred to IFREMER in France, an institute of world renown in the area of marine research whose aims and policy making decisions are vastly different from those of the institute proposed under the provisions in this Bill. I contend that the people involved in research here are very disappointed at the provisions in this Bill. Indeed, it has been the curse of this country that so little marine research has taken place over the years, probably because of a lack of finance in addition to other reasons.
I have spoken to researchers in this field, particularly to people in University College Galway and other bodies who have expressed great disappointment that the members of this proposed institute will merely be advisers to the Minister. If the objective is for this industry to broaden and devoelop — which was supposed to have been the purpose of this Bill — then its provisions will be viewed with disappointment by many. I contend it will constitute merely another body to advise the Minister.
If the members of the proposed institute cannot formulate policy without being at the beck and call of the Minister, ascertaining what may or may not be suitable in this area, then the provisions of this Bill will prove to be a sham and will not reap the requisite results. Rather will the institute be lost amidst the bureaucracy of the Minister's Department and will never be afforded an opportunity of having the necessary finances made available to them. Neither will it afford the institute an opportunity to obtain finance on their own account, they being tied excessively to the Minister's apron strings and those of the Department. I contend there will be too many strictures on them to allow them function properly.
I am extremely disappointed the Minister has not seen fit to take on board my amendment to formulate policy rather than merely advise him.
Acting Chairman
Is amendment No. 2 withdrawn?
Yes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill".
I want to raise a number of general points under this section. Subsection (1) says:
The Institute shall have the following general functions, namely, to undertake, to co-ordinate, to promote and to assist in marine research and development and to provide such services related to marine research and development, that in the opinion of the Institute will promote economic development and create employment.
It appears fairly clear from that subsection that the institute is to be commercially or economically orientated and that immediate applied research only will be undertaken by them. At least that is the meaning I draw from the provisions of this subsection in that it says: "... provide such services ... that in the opinion of the institute will promote economic development and create employment." Assuming that my interpretation is correct, that the institute will devote its endeavours to immediate applied research for economic development purposes, the general question arises: what bodies will undertake the pre-commercial research, the basic and pre-commercial research, which will be necessary to underpin the work of the Marine Institute?
Arising out of that general point, the provisions of the Bill are very vague. I take it that if there were any specifics to be stipulated they would have appeared in this section. For example, the provisions of the Bill are very vague vis-à-vis the nature of the relationship of the institute to pre-existing bodies of one kind or another, whether engaging in research or more pragmatically active.
If, as I take it, the institute will be orientated towards economically related applied research I should pose the question: what will be the relationship of the institute with the bodies engaging in more basic research which will be essential to the work of the institute? More particularly I might pose the question: what will be the institute's relationship with, for example, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, at present responsible for processing and marketing of marine products? Also what will be the relationship of the institute to Eolas, at present responsible for research policy and funding across the board? Why do not the provisions of the Bill state clearly what will be their relationship of the institute with Eolas? I might well ask: will the institute take on the function of Eolas in relation to marine matters or will Eolas be expected to hive off their research policy function in relation to marine matters to the institute? Furthermore, what will be the relationship of the institute to the Department of the Marine, to the Central Fisheries Board, the regional fisheries boards, because each would be involved in aspects which appear to be listed under the functions of the institute? All of this comprises part of the unsatisfactory drafting of the Bill.
If I might be permitted to jump ahead, it would be common sense to mention the point here — even though technically it arises later — that is, that section 17 talks about the provision of scholarships in respect of which my colleague Senator Ó Foighil has tabled an amendment. In the matter of asking what will be the relevant relationships I shall conclude by asking: what will be the relationship of the institute to the Department of the Marine because it is envisaged that the institute will have a function in relation to training for research and development in the marine area? One might well ask: where will the Department of Education enter into that aspect?
I should like clarification of this network of relationships singularly absent from the Bill.
(Limerick West): As I have said already on many occasions the purpose of the Bill, and indeed the purpose of this section, is very specific. It is to co-ordinate all the agencies which at present carry out marine research. If there are aspects of marine research in the semi-State organisations, as outlined by Senator Murphy, it will be the function of the Marine Institute to co-ordinate the work here. Client Departments and other customers will retain an input into the institute's activities through representation at board level or indeed on advisory committees of the institute.
A number of these organisations, as the Senator rightly said, are under the control of Government Departments. Following the establishment of the institute the persons involved will be transferred from their parent Departments to the Department of the Marine and then to the Marine Institute. In the case of organisations not under the direct control of Government Departments, these will be involved in the work of the institute through work commissioned from time to time. therefore, the purpose of this section, as I have just stated, is to co-ordinate the work of the agencies concerned and indeed they will commission any work or information required by the institute from time to time.
Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
I move amendment No. 4:
In page 5, before section 5, to insert a new section as follows:
5. The headquarters of the Institute shall be established in Cork."
Acting Chairman
This amendment has already been discussed. Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes it is. By way of explanation, I would like to point out that I voted for Senator Ó Foighil's amendment even though it seems to be rather contradictory. What I was voting for was the principle of decentralisation which both amendments represent. That is why I was happy to vote for Senator Ó Foighil's amendment. I expect the gesture will be reciprocated, not only by Senator Ó Foighil but by his group as a whole. I am pressing the amendment.
(Limerick West): It seems to be implied here that the Government are against decentralisation but that is far from the case as is evidenced by the decentralisation progrmame that has been in place over the past number of years. I want to repeat once again that I am not saying whether the institute should be in Galway, Cork or elsewhere; all I am saying, and it is quite plain, is that the location of the institute should not be specified in legislation. That is simply what I am saying and it has nothing to do with decentralisation.
Acting Chairman
Are you pressing your amendment, Senator?
Yes.
Amendment put.
Votáil.
Acting Chairman
Will Senators claiming a division please rise?
Five or more Senators stood.
Acting Chairman
The division will proceed.
The Committee divided: Tá, 11; Níl, 17.
Tá
- Hederman, Carmencita.
- Hourigan, Richard V.
- Jackman, Mary.
- McDonald, Charlie.
- Murphy, John A.
- Neville, Daniel.
- Ó Foighil, Pól.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Raftery, Tom.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Níl
- Bennett, Olga.
- Byrne, Sean.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Dardis, John.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Foley, Denis.
- Honan, Tras.
- Lydon, Don.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- Ryan, Eoin David.
- Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Murphy and Ross; Níl, Senators McGowan and Wright.
Amendment declared lost.
Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We now move to Government amendment No. 5. Amendment No. 5 is consequential with amendment No. 9 and amendment No. 7 is related. Amendments Nos. 5, 7 and 9 may be discussed together.
Government amendment No. 5:
In page 5, line 46, to delete "and superannuation".
(Limerick West): This is a technical amendment. Superannuation of the chief executive officer is included with the superannuation of staff of the institute in section 9.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 7, as amended, agreed to.
Section 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Acting Chairman (Mr. Farrell)
We now move to Government amendment No. 6 and that amendment is grouped with amendments Nos. 8, 10 and 11 for the purposes of debate.
Government amendment No. 6:
In page 7, line 36, after "Minister" to insert "and the Minister".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 7:
In page 7, line 38, to delete "other than" and substitute "including".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 8:
In page 8, line 3, after "apply" to insert "immediately".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 9:
In page 8, line 12, after "Institute," to insert "including the Chief Executive".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 10:
In page 8, line 32, to delete "allowance" and substitute "superannuation benefits".
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 11:
In page 8, lines 33 and 34, to delete "such superannuation scheme, or such enactments in relation to superannuation" and substitute "the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1963".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 9, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 10 to 12, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 13.
I move amendment No. 12:
In page 10, lines 10 and 11, to delete subsection (2).
Tá sé molta anseo go mbeadh cead ag an institiúid bronntanais airgid agus mar sin a fháil dá mbeadh siad le fáil faoi choinníollacha áirithe, under certain conditions, mar a deirtear. Ba cheart fo-alt (2) a ghlanadh amach ar fad.
It could be argued that subsection (2) could act as a deterrent to those who would like to give money or donations to the Marine Institute. If it were to be removed leaving the matter to the discretion of the institute, people might be much more favourably disposed towards the institute. It should be left to the board and the chief executive to decide whether to accept funds made available from private or other sources with conditions attached. Tá neart comhlachtaí agus institiuidí ann a mbeadh acu, b'fhéidir cúnamh a thabhairt don institiúid seo. They might be favourably disposed towards the institute and make funds available. If subsection (2) is left as it is, it may deter such people coming forward with funds for the institute. The staff, the chief executive, the Minister and his advisers would easily see if the conditions attached to such funds were in keeping with the spirit of the legislation.
It would be better if that section were deleted. Earlier the Minister rejected an amendment suggesting that the headquarters of the institute be established in Galway. In the same way I do not think this subsection should be included in the Bill. It should be readily understood that the institute, like many other institutes, will be able to accept donations and financial help and that it is not necessary to state this in the Bill. If subsection (2) were to be deleted people who may be very well disposed towards the institute might come forward with financial help.
(Limerick West): I am opposed to this amendment simply because it would be totally inappropriate for the Marine Institute to accept a gift if the conditions attached to it would be inconsistent with the functions of the institute. This is the standard provision in all such legislation. I cannot accept the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 13 agreed to.
Sections 14 to 16, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 17.
I move amendment No. 13:
In page 10, line 36, to delete "scholarships" and substitute "at least two scholarships annually".
Sa chás seo ba mhaith liom achainí láidir a dhéanamh ar an Aire go ndéanfadh sé a lua go sonrach sa Bhille seo go mbeadh scoláireachtaí le fáil. Níl sé ach ráite anseo go mb'fhéidir go bhféadfadh an tAire — he may award scholarships. That is a very weak subsection. If the institute are not in a position specifically to state that at least a number of scholarships will be awarded, the Bill will prove to be deficient. Above anything else, there should be some mechanism which will enable the Marine Institute to ensure that the process of research and development continues. The intention is good but something specific must happen to bring it to fruition so that it will have some bearing on aspects of marine development.
Déarfainn féin go bhfuil an chuid seo den Bhille níos tábhachtaí ar go leor bealaí ná aon chuid eile den Bhille. This section is of paramount importance to students and to the Marine Institute who hope to reach the position where young people can look forward to becoming involved in research and development. Section 13 merely states that some scholarships may be provided. It would be far more helpful if a specific minimum number was put into the Bill so that we would know and take for granted that something is going to happen. I understand it may never happen, despite the good intentions of the present Minister. Some other Minister may take office who may not be disposed to approve of annual scholarships to help marine development and research.
This country is starved of young researchers, people who have the brains and the ability to specialise in marine research. I know from practical experience that this is the case. I have seen young people who have graduated with honours degrees in science, fish farming and matters related to marine development and biology. There is nothing in this country to help them to forward their ideas for research and development. They have to go abroad or else become occupied in some other type of work. It is sad that this is happening year after year. We are turning out some of the finest students in marine-related subjects. They have to leave the country at a time when we need them most, especially with the establishment of this Marine Institute.
I gather it is the intention to encourage marine research by providing scholarships on a yearly basis. The inherent weakness is that there is no specified number of scholarships. We are asking that the subsection be amended to provide for at least two annual scholarships. This would not be a major imposition when the Bill already provides for this possibility.
Tá aithne agam ar dhaoine, mar shampla, a d'imigh as Ollscoil na Gaillimhe, muintir na Gaeltachta, a chuaigh isteach go dtí Ollscoil na Gaillimhe agus a rinne an-staidéar ar fhorbhairt fheilméireacht éisc agus ar fhorbairt iascaireachta go ginearálta. Tá aithne agam ar scoláire a chuaigh go dtí an Coláiste Réigiúnach i nGaillimh, áit a bhfuil ionad speisialta le haghaidh taighde agus feilméireacht éisc freisin, agus tá aithne agam ar go leor daoine a tháinig go Gaillimh as Ciarraí, as an Daingean, Dún na nGall agus chuadar go dtí na hinstitiúidí sin agus fuair siad a gcuid dintiúirí agus a gcuid céimeanna ollscoile agus céimeanna tríú leibhéal. Fuaradar a gcuid diplomas sna hábhair éagsúla, ach ní raibh rud ar bith sa tír seo dóibh le leanstan ar aghaidh leis an taighde atále déanamh.
A good number of Irish students are to be found in educational institutes in such diverse places as Vancouver, Seattle, Stirling, Aberdeen and France. They had to leave because there was no possibility of a way forward here, and other countries are reaping the benefit of the subsidised education given by this State which has enabled these young people to specialise in marine-related studies. This country is the poorer without them. The Bill will have very little to offer to young graduates from Cork, Galway and other institutes if we cannot offer a substantial number of scholarships. We should at least give them a start by providing that this institute be statute bound to provide at least two scholarships annually. It would not be a great imposition on any Department to make the necessary funds available.
Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil scoláirí anseo agus go bhfuil siad i Stirling University, Aberdeen University, Atlanta in Georgia and the University of British Columbia. I know them and I have visited some students in those places. They are busily engaged in studying for Ph. Ds. Last summer visiting professors from the United States were scouting for students from this country to work in research and development. The pity is that they will stay in other countries because they will be offered lucrative jobs and good employment and they will be lost to Ireland.
This subsection is the most important part of this Bill. We must create the structures which will enable young people of proven ability to remain in Ireland. The expenditure by the State in educating these people at third level is lost when they go abroad. There is also the loss to their locality. The Bill makes a gesture towards rectifying the position but there is an inherent weakness in the subsection in that it does not specify a number of annual scholarships. I ask that the section be amended to provide for at least two scholarships annually.
(Limerick West): I assure the Senator that his fears are unfounded. The section specifies that the institute may, with the approval of the Minister, provide scholarships and other awards for the education and training of persons in marine research and development. I agree with the views expressed by the Senator and thank him for his contribution. The area of research is underdeveloped. As the Senator has already pointed out, it is important where possible that the Marine Institute should contribute to this education. The power to provide scholarships and other awards will be part of the institute's contribution to this area. The provision of scholarships and other awards will be restricted to the areas of research which are relevant to the institute but may be more appropriately funded by means of scholarship or other awards. The provision of scholarships and other awards will be limited to the areas of research which will contribute to the development of the marine industries. It is possible, of course, that certain scholarships and other awards made by the Marine Institute will be funded by the institute or by other industrial concerns.
The Senator's fears are unfounded because it is a matter for the institute to decide whether scholarships or other awards should be made. If this amendment was accepted, requiring that two scholarships annually be awarded, the situation could arise where there may not be suitable persons to award the scholarships to or there may not be suitable projects. Therefore it would be inappropriate to specify in the legislation the number of scholarships which the Marine Institute may provide. I want to end as I started by saying that the Senator's fears are unfounded and I am sure he will see that my words will come true.
I am not very happy with the Minister's reply because I have learned from experience that when things are so loosely put together as may provide scholarships and at the whims and fancies of Departments and Ministers, that may not happen. If we include the word "may"— a word I am completely against there is a way out for the Department. As for the Ministers of State suggestion that there may not be suitable projects for research and development, but, as sure as day follows night, there will always be room for marine research in this country. I would ask the Minister to take it on board.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 17 agreed to.
Sections 18 to 25, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".
I would like to convey to the Minister the concern of many people that this Bill has been conceived for a long time and we hope the final coming forth will be worthwhile. There has been a very long delay here for various reasons and I hope the Bill will be expedited through the Dáil because, as I pointed out in my Second Stage speech, there is a quite a lot of research funding hanging on the speedy implementation of this Bill. I urge on the Minister the necessity of seeing this Bill through as quickly as possible.
Limerick West): As you know, the Dáil will expedite proceedings.
Question put and agreed to.