It is proposed to take Items Nos. 3, 4 and 5, in that order.
Order of Business.
Could the Leader of the House indicate whether Item No. 3 will be taken with debate or without debate? Is it proposed to take Item No. 9 on today's Order Paper during this session?
May I ask the Leader if, in the light of the horrific events yesterday in Baghdad, he will at least allow statements from the groups, or even an abbreviated series of statements, without a motion? This is the third sitting day in a row on which I have asked for this. I am horrified that both Houses of the Oireachtas should be silenced on an issue of this magnitude. Whatever one's views, there are profound humanitarian reasons for at least recording our views which are of almost universal distaste. We are getting to a stage of disproportion with 500 civilians being massacred. Can I ask the Leader, in as uncontroversial way as possible, for the right to put the views of this House on the record regarding what happened in Baghdad yesterday?
Could I join with Senator Brendan Ryan in asking for a debate on this and other matters pertaining to the war in the Gulf area? We have condemned occasional killings in the North. We have condemned occasional killings here and there, all over the world. We should at least be able to condemn officially the mass murder of civilians in a bunker in Baghdad. We should also debate the role of the media here in taking up statements made by American Army personnel who asked the question, "Why are these people underground at night?" Why are they underground? They are being bombed left, right and centre all over Baghdad.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I ask the Senator to confine his remarks to the question.
I ask the Leader that a debate should be allowed on the overall issue of the Gulf War.
May I ask the Leader of the House what the background is to the way item No. 3 has appeared on the Order Paper, as if it were from nowhere? It will be debated shortly, with very little time for any of us to consider the implications of what is involved. Secondly, can I ask the Leader of the House if he has any proposals arising from the statement he made yesterday relating to the manner in which the Order of Business is conducted so that the problems that he alluded to yesterday might be avoided?
I want to support Senator Upton's remarks about item No. 3. I am all for producing documents everywhere, but at least we could be told what this means. I should also like to support Senator Brendan Ryan's plea for brief time to be given for statements on the Gulf War. The reason such a debate is appropriate is because of the horrific way in which the war has escalated since we last debated it. I am not the only one who now feels that if I talk again on the matter I will take a different line. Certainly for me that Baghdad bombing has strained the tenuous credibility of the war as a United Nations operation and I think I am not the only one who would like to have an opportunity in a debate to clarify my position. I would support Senator Ryan's argument that all we need, really, is a short time and abbreviated statements, by agreement.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he would include in the discussion the decision of Dublin Corporation to allow Sinn Fein use the Mansion House? I raise this in view of the fact that since I raised it last the dastardly attack took place on the British Cabinet by the Provisional IRA. I am asking for the last time now that a limited debate of half an hour be allowed in order that Senators can express their views on it. This is in the spirit of what the Leader of the House said yesterday. I also support the view that a discussion should take place on the Middle East War.
On the Order of Business, would the Leader of the House prefer that item No. 4 be taken next Wednesday? On behalf of this group, I support the call of Senator Ryan and Senator Murphy in relation to statements or a brief debate on the Gulf, given that the war has been on for a month and that quite a lot of things have happened since then.
I support the idea of having a brief discussion on the developments in the Gulf. My own situation is not unknown to people here. I have had quite a lot of experience of war and I know what is likely to happen in a time of war. I am little bit disturbed at developments and at the way things are going in this war. I am satisfied that even those who supported the war will want some emphasis from a body such as this and other power bodies throughout the world that the war should be brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible.
May I join with the other Senators in asking for time for statements or for a debate on the Gulf? In relation to Item No. 5, the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, I understood that the Second Stage of that Bill was to finish today but I realise there are many speakers who wish to speak on it. Can the Leader indicate if he intends to make time available at a later stage for other Members to contribute to that debate? One of the reasons I raised that question is that yesterday evening we lost 20 minutes in that debate through confusion which appears to arise quite often in the House as to whether or not Ministers are paired.
There is no confusion.
What I want to clarify, either through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges or through the Leader, is whether something can be done to prevent such incidents from happening in the future? Can that time that was lost be made up?
The Leader of the House now has confirmation that the local elections are to take place in June. Can he give us any indication with regard to the promised reform of local government Bill? Is there any sign of it coming before us? Are we to have councils elected for another five or six years to local authorities who are totally impotent? Will we have a continuation of the centralised bureaucratic control which is rampant in this country?
Will the Leader of the House make an explanatory statement in relation to Item No. 3? It appeared on the Order Paper from nowhere. Is it subject to public debate here once we get that explanatory statement? I would also like to support the calls for statements, or preferably a debate, on the developments that have taken place in relation to the Gulf War. Certainly what has taken place now is a radical departure from what was the initial intention, as stated, in carrying out the UN Resolution, I always had very strong reservations about it but, certainly, I think this House should debate the issues that have arisen.
May I ask the Leader of the House to clarify whether Item No. 4 will be taken before Item No. 5. My understanding was that the Environmental Protection Agency was going to go right through this day, that the Second Stage would be dealt with today, and that there would no other item on the Order of Business. Finally, may I ask, as I asked yesterday, what are the intentions in relation to a debate on Northern Ireland and the prisons?
May I ask the Leader of the House to confirm with regard to the matter that Senator Dardis has just raised that there is absolutely no confusion with regard to Ministers leaving this House? I happened to be in the House here yesterday evening at 5.45 p.m. when the bells rang in the other House and the Minister had to leave for a vote. The few Senators who remained here decided it would not be worthwhile bringing the Minister back for three or four minutes. The debate was due to finish at 6 o'clock. There is absolutely no confusion whatever about Ministers leaving here.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I do not want to go back over yesterday's business.
I would like to support wholeheartedly the call of Senator Hederman, in view of the fact that local elections are soon being held, of having the Bill dealing with local government reform introduced as soon as possible. I have been a member of a local authority for 30 years. I wonder whether I should stand again next June in view of the limited powers we now have because of lack of finance. However, in view of the strong representations I think I will stand in June.
I would also like to support fully the call for a debate on the atrocities in Baghdad. I appreciated the Government's involvement in the United Nations Resolutions on the Iraq war. I was horrified last night to see the carnage that was carried out on the unfortunate children and women in Baghdad in the name of the United Nations, of which we are a member. I am asking that the Leader would recommend to our Government that everything possible should be done to avoid a serious escalation of the carnage which occurred in Baghdad last night.
A number of queries have been raised in regard to the Gulf War and I accept fully the points that have been made. Although we did have a full day's debate on the war three weeks ago, I accept that there is a new situation. There has been an escalation of the war which is causing much concern. What I will certainly say to the Senators on both sides of the House is that I will ask the Whips to meet this evening to try to arrange time for statements as soon as possible. I give you that full assurance. Senator Manning also asked whether item No. 9 will be taken this session or not. I have to be honest and say that I am not sure yet, but I will come back to the Senator very quickly with an answer to that query. Senator Brendan Ryan referred to the Gulf War, as did Senator Michael Lanigan. Senator Upton referred to item No. 3, as did Professor Murphy and I will be replying with a statement on that matter. Senator Costello also raised the matter.
Senator Upton also raised the question of the problem which was mentioned yesterday, that of a change in the ordering of business. Again, I propose to ask the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to examine it and, perhaps, to have an ongoing discussion on that matter to see if an improvement can be made. Senator Murphy asked about the escalation of the war. Senator Neville asked about item No. 7. I have to say that at this time I have no plans for a debate on that matter. Senator Cosgrave asked for statements on the Gulf. All Stages of item No. 4, which the Senator mentioned, will be taken next week. Senator Harte and Senator Dardis also referred to statements on the Gulf. Senator Dardis made a point on item No. 5 — the question of the Minister being paired or not. I understand quite positively that Ministers are paired. I think that has been agreed.
Senator Hederman asked about the Local Government Reform Bill. I am aware that that matter is being actively pursued. In fact, the Taoiseach gave a commitment in the Dáil that the Bill would be proposed before June. Senator Costello asked for an explantion on item No. 3. I will be giving that explanation. He also asked about the Environmental Protection Agency Bill and the Gulf War. With regard to the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, I have made it clear from the start that as far as I an concerned there will be no restriction whatsoever on the debate. We think and we may be wrong, that it should conclude this evening. Perhaps it will not.
Senator McMahon referred to decisions of the Ministers in the House. Senator John Ryan asked a question about local government reform and for statements to be made on the Gulf War I have replied to those matters.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Could the Leader clarify if there will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.?
There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m., and we will finish our business at 4 p.m.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is the Order of Business agreed?
I asked on item No. 3 whether there will be a debate on that or whether there will simply be a statement from him. Could the Leader clarify that point?
There will be a statement from myself. I think you will see the reason why there will not be a debate.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is the Order of Business agreed?
Order of Business agreed to.