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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Apr 1991

Vol. 128 No. 8

Order of Business.

As we do not have any motions for the Adjournment we will move to the Order of Business.

The Order of Business for today is as follows: we resume discussion on Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, 1990 until 1 p.m. with a sos from 1 to 2 p.m. At 4 p.m. we conclude the discussion on the debate for today.

On the Order of Business, will the Leader of the House give us an indication what the debate which was asked for from all sides yesterday on the Kurdish situation and when that debate will be taken? I also repeat the point I made yesterday about a debate on Northern Ireland. I do not share the view of the Leader of the House that it would be inappropriate or unhelpful at this point in our history to have such a debate. In spite of his invoking the wisdom of Senator Jack Harte yesterday, which we all acknowledge, I ask him again to accede to the view on all sides in the House that a debate on the North would be helpful and positive to the Government at this time.

A point was raised a number of times yesterday and previously by a number of Senators, including Senator Honan yesterday about the fact that on the question of the debate on reform of the Seanad a discussion should take place on the question of extending the franchise. I want to put on the record that everyone from the Independent group has spoken on the matter. They have indicated they want the franchise extended to graduates of other third level institutions. What we will be asking is that the people on the other panels will also invite fishermen to vote on the fisheries panel and farmers to vote on the farmers' panel——

(Interruptions.)

——so that we spread the franchise right around the country we are ready for change. Are the Government side prepared to address change? That is the difficulty.

For Senator O'Toole's information, we already have the farmers' and the fishermen's votes on our panel.

You do not——

Do not engage in discussion with the Senator.

Will the Leader of the House clarify for us what proposal he has to introduce legislation in this House dealing with labour matters?

Once again I rise to support my colleague, Senator Manning and to ask the Leader of the House to provide time for a debate on Northern Ireland. We have people who write in the Sunday newspapers. We have people who make statements who are far removed from the reality on the ground out there. We are getting a distorted picture completely about the North and I strongly urge the Leader of the House and the Seanad to make whatever arrangements are necessary in order that we can make our contribution.

I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he has decided when to hold the debate on the prisons service as he promised prior to the recess?

I had not intended to speak on the Order of Business but I must dissent from what Senator Manning said. I must agree with the Leader of the House. We are moving towards the end of the month. The talks are about to be held. The hopes of many people are bound up in these talks. As the House will know from my own interest in Northern Ireland, I cannot see what useful purpose will be served by any debate at this stage.

I want to clarify one point in support of what Senator Honan said. The farming organisations, through the main organisation which is the Irish Co-Operative Organisation Society, has a nominating right of two persons. That is more commonly known as the ICOS and in that way the farmers——

Is that not the greatest joke of all?

If Senators want to score points off each other, pick another location for it. It has nothing to do with the Order of Business.

Mr. Farrell

I live beside the Border and am familiar with what happens there. I do not think it would be wise to have a debate on the matter. There would be many people talking about it and making statements that would not bear any resemblance to the truth. Those who are near the Border know that the issue is much deeper than either religion or politics. There is another element that is quite serious that needs to be dealt with. I do not think a discussion in this House would solve anything, but only add confusion.

I am disappointed my colleagues are so afraid of the people they claim to represent that they will not have elections; they want some sort of second-hand elections.

That is irrelevant.

We do not have such privileges. We believe the privilege we have should be extended to everybody else.

That is not relevant to the Order of Business. I am going to insist from now that irrelevancies and repetition will be ruled out of order.

I support Senator Neville in his request. It was not before the Easter recess that the Leader of the House promised us a debate on the prisons service; it was before the Christmas recess that he promised us such a debate. I do not think he could accuse me of being particularly troublesome or awkward about it but I wish to give the Leader notice that my patience on this issue, for what it is worth, is coming close to breaking point. I have waited almost six months now for something that was promised before Christmas. I will take guidance from the Chair on whether I am making speeches or not.

I take it you are putting a question?

I am. I am explaining my position to the Leader. I would like a clear and specific commitment from him to have a debate on the prisons system. I would strongly urge him, in support of Senator McGowan and some of my other colleagues that we should have a debate on the North. Otherwise, the voice of democratic politics in this State will be silenced and the voice of extra parliamentary politics will be free to pronounce and to speak with whatever abandon it wishes outside the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is a particularly good reason why we should have such a debate at a time of difficulties like this.

Senator, you have put your question. I think the Leader of the House will be satisfied he has an answer to give.

May I finish the question? There are two parts to it.

Yes. Please get to the point.

Would the Leader agree that Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas can be trusted to be a good deal more responsible about Northern Ireland than many people outside the Houses of the Oireachtas? Therefore, the debate should continue.

Finally, many months ago during the height of the Gulf War I raised the issue of East Timor. I would now ask the Leader, in the light of some documentation I have sent to most Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas, first to raise the issue with the Government and then to have at least an informative debate on this appalling abuse committed in breach of the United Nations Security Council resolutions and resulting in the slaughter of 200,000 people.

May I ask the Leader of the House if there will be legislation to ratify the European Patent Convention? As Members will know, there is an urgent need for legislation in this area. Indeed, it has an effect on our chemical industry and on further investment in this country. During my time in the Dáil when this issue was raised consistently, the reply generally was that there was a constitutional problem. Is the Leader aware if this problem has been solved and, if so, when the legislation will be due?

I would like to support Senator McGowan in his request for a debate on Northern Ireland. I have absolutely no intention of proposing an amendment to the Order of Business or to put him in a difficult situation on this. I would like to ask whether there is any reason the Leader of the House is so coy about debating Northern Ireland? It seems to me that nothing but good could come from examining the Government's position on Northern Ireland, either during the talks or before the talks. Why has the Leader of the House been so reluctant in the past and so reluctant now to have a debate on Northern Ireland. It really is high time we had a debate on this and that Government policy came under scrutiny and examination by both Houses of the Oireachtas and not just this one.

I would like to ask the Leader of the House to consider setting time aside for a full debate on tourism.

I accept that we have had a debate on agriculture in the fairly recent past. As a representative of farmers I would have to say that things on the ground are very serious and I would, therefore, repeat my call for an urgent debate on agriculture, an industry that employs directly or indirectly about one third of the workforce.

I would like to support the call by Senator Manning for a debate on the Kurds. Their present situation is an inevitable consequence of the war against which a number of us warned. The Americans made it perfectly clear through their foreign policy spokesman that they would do absolutely nothing for the Kurds before the war and during the war so nobody should be surprised.

Your question, please?

The question is again: will the Leader give a date with regard to the debate on the Kurds? I know there is goodwill in this matter. I would point out I have taken the trouble of placing a motion on the Order Paper about this.

With regard to the other matters that were raised, I agree with Senator O'Toole and Senator Ryan with regard to votes for the constituents. I certainly am not prepared to——

It has no bearing on the Order of Business.

May I ask the Leader of the House on a final point if he shares certain concerns of mine? I know the Leas-Cheann Comhairle of the Dáil has described the Fianna Fáil Party as the "Floral Party", speaking of the flowers that were born to blush unseen and——

It is a well established practice in this House that we do not refer to Members of the other House. I must remind you of that. The Leader of the House to reply.

In reply to the various queries that have been raised, a number of speakers touched on the matter of the Kurds and I gave an assurance to the House yesterday that we will have a debate on that matter as quickly as possible. That position still stands. As I explained yesterday, we ran into small difficulty but we are still hopeful. I firmly believe we will have a debate on the Kurdish situation next week.

Senator Manning and others raised the question of Northern Ireland. I indicated my position yesterday and my reasons for it. I still stand by and hold by that situation. Senator O'Toole raised the question about the franchise. This is probably not appropriate to the Order of Business. That was referred to also by Senator Honan and by Senator Norris.

Senator Upton asked about legislation dealing with labour matters. I can tell Senator Upton that the Department of Labour will shortly be publishing a Payment of Wages Bill and the Minister has agreed to our request that this Bill would be initiated in this House. The Bill allows employers and workers to negotiate new methods of cash list, wage payments and other matters dealing with deductions and unauthorised deductions, from pay. It is important legislation from that point of view. I hope we will have it soon in this House, perhaps in the next two or three weeks.

Senator McGowan also touched on the question of Northern Ireland. Senator Neville and Senator Brendan Ryan referred to the prisons system. I certainly cannot deny that before Easter I indicated there would be a debate on this matter. Senator Ryan said it might have been earlier, but certainly I can assure the House the Minister is anxious to take such a debate. That indicates, of course, that we have been in touch with the Department regarding a debate. They are willing to come to us as quickly as possible. From our point of view the problem is trying to fit it in because there is much legislation to be dealt with. Senator Ross made the point yesterday that we cannot fit in important debates on the prisons system, agriculture and education. All of these areas were mentioned. I can assure the House that we will have a debate on the prisons system as quickly as possible as I promised.

I have noted Senator Murphy's comments. Senator Farrell also referred to the Northern Ireland situation. Senator Brendan Ryan referred to the UN Security Council resolutions which is not appropriate to the Order of Business. He also mentioned the prisons system. Senator Cullen asked for details on the Patents Bill. I touched on it yesterday. That is part of the programme of legislation for this session. The Patents Bill, as Senator Cullen and Senators know, enables ratification of the European Patent Convention and the Patent Cooperation Treaty. It makes new provisions for the granting of patents. That, as I said, is one of the measures earmarked for debate and discussion this session.

Senator Ross referred to the Northern Ireland situation. Senator Foley asked for a debate on tourism. I accept, like other matters that it is an important area of life, important in the area of job creation and so on and I will consider it when we get other issues out of the way. The same applies to agriculture. I mentioned yesterday that we had a debate on agriculture before Easter. I know it is a changing situation and I will consider the matter in the future.

Order of Business agreed to.
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