It is proposed to continue Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, item No. 2 on the Order Paper, to 6 p.m. and to have a sos between 6 p.m. and 6.30 p.m. At 6.30 p.m. we will resume discussion on Fianna Fáil motion dealing with the designation of Dublin by the EC as European City of Culture for 1991. From 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. we will have a debate on Second Stage of item No. 3, the Radiological Protection Bill, 1990.
Order of Business.
While I do not think it necessary that we would have a debate on it, it is important that the ESB dispute be mentioned. As Energy spokesperson and on behalf of this group, I support the call of our party leader to have possibly some sort of all-party approach in relation to it. In the meantime I am sure I speak for all Members of the House when I urge that work be resumed pending further talks and, hopefully, leading——
I must encourage the Senator to ask the Leader of the House a question.
I ask the Leader of the House to take on board what I have said and I am sure all Members here would agree with that.
Thank you, Senator, you certainly took the long way around.
On the Order of Business, I ask the Leader, first, if he has any further information on a debate on the prisons system and, secondly, could he tell us about any further Government legislation that he anticipates will be introduced in this House? We can offer him a long list of legislation we will introduce if he is short of business. I would specifically like to ask him if he will ask the Minister for Education to introduce the Colleges Bill. There are many Members elected here who represent education and, as has been said before, it is a pity they do not let educationists select them. It would be a wonderful exercise in democracy if they did. Nevertheless, there are many Members of this House who have an identification with education and a number of us here represent graduates of a selection of third level education. It would be useful and I would like the Leader to ask the Minister for Education if the Colleges Bill, when published, is to be introduced in this House.
I ask the Leader of the House if he would be prepared to make time available at some stage in the near future for a debate on broadcasting arising from the difficulties in a number of independent broadcasting stations at present? Secondly, may I ask the Leader of the House if he would confirm that the document which had just been circulated, which is described as a "Suggested timetable for Seanad Committee debate and so on in relation to the Radiological Protection Bill" is just a suggestion and can he also confirm that it will not lead to debate being limited on the Environmental Protection Agency Bill?
On the Order of Business, may I ask the Leader of the House if he has any further information of any other defections from the Independents to Fine Gael?
Not relevant to the Order of Business. I am sure it is not within the competence of the Leader of the House either.
The decision has sent a shiver down through the ranks of the whole political spectrum. I am wondering how the Senator's decision will be received in Fine Gael, particularly in the areas where the Senator has expressed opinions——
I must advice the Senator that it is totally irrelevant. His contribution has no bearing on the Order of Business.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he has any information with regard to the introduction of the Local Government Reform Bill? When will it be introduced and will it be introduced in this House? I would like to point out to the Leader of the House that there are only eight weeks left for the introduction of this Bill if it is to become law before the local elections.
I was going to ask about Senator Ross joining the Blueshirts, but you have already ruled this out of order so I probably will not ask it now. I think it begs the question as to whether the Independents will now be a group without their esteemed Member when he does join Fine Gael?
(Interruptions.)
I do not know whether to congratulate or sympathise with Senator Ross but I certainly wish him well in his new role.
Senator Ross has no special provision under Standing Orders.
I am shocked by that omission from Standing Orders.
It covers you though.
I was always regarded as an exceptional person here and I am glad you accept that.
Senator Costello without interruption please.
I merely thought it was appropriate to refer to one of our distinguished Members who has made a career move and I wish him well. In the context of a number of developments in relation to education — the Minister has made statements in relation to the creation of a new school model which is very vague at present and has also promised that a White Paper on Education will be available early in 1991 — will these and other matters that we have raised over the weeks encourage the Leader of the House to see if that debate on education could be brought forward as soon as possible?
Secondly, the other almost perennial question is that of the debate on the prisons system. I know the Leader of the House has made commitments, but unfortunately these commitments are not coming to fruition and almost weekly now we have one or other very tragic event taking place in the prisons. I urge the Leader of the House to bring that matter forward also.
Finally, may I again ask the Leader of the House, in regard to the invitation to Mr. De Klerk, President of South Africa, if there could be some way in which statements could be made, seeing that an invitation from the Government has issued. He will be here tommorrow and perhaps there is some way that some statements could be made in relation to the situation in South Africa, which has been a matter of very grave concern to Irish people for many decades.
May I repeat my question of last week and ask the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on agriculture as soon as possible in view of the changes that are being proposed in the Common Agricultural Policy at present, changes that will have an effect on agriculture in this country.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he has received any indication from the Minister for Health that he proposes to act on the findings of the high powered commissions that were set up in the health area and if he has received an indication from the Minister for Health that all of these commissions have reported. It would be appropriate for the Leader of the House to receive this information from the Minister and, if possible, have a short debate in this House and what it is proposed to do about the health services, given that there is a crisis as regards the waiting lists.
I also support Senator Hussey's call for a debate on agriculture whenever that can be arranged.
We had a unique occasion in this country in the past few days when the IFA and the Department of Agriculture agreed on a particular case. The issue on which they agreed is that farmer's incomes will drop this year by 11 per cent——
A question for the Leader of the House, please.
——and this follows a substantial drop last year. If any other sector were to suffer any drop there would be an outcry, there would be an ongoing debate in every forum. In view of that, I am asking now for an urgent debate on agriculture irrespective of the fact that we may have had debates in the fairly recent past. With the prospect of such a drop, it is important to the agricultural sector that a debate be held immediately.
It certainly would be useful if the Leader of the House could arrange to give those of us who will be demonstrating outside Government Buildings tomorrows between 12.30 p.m. and 2 p.m. the opportunity of a platform here to indicate our views on President De Klerk's visit. There are all sorts of views on all sides of the House and I request that we be allowed to have that debate. I am not talking about an acrimonous debate. There are genuinely differing views on it, as there were on the Middle East.
I would also like to put something clearly on the record. We have indicated on two or three occasions over the past number of weeks that we would be amenable to discuss with the Government Whip and the Leader of the House an orderly addressing of the amendments to the Environmental Protection Agency Bill and we indicated that during the course of the debate on at least two occasions last week. That still remains the position. I would just like to stress one point: any agreement we might come to could only be entered into on the basis that every amendment would be addressed. Whatever system we would finally agree on would obviously have to be based on that kind of an arrangement.
Cúpla bliain ó shin, bhí an tAcht ollscolaíochta faoi chaibidil sa Teach seo, the one that set up the new universities. While we were going through that, Senator Murphy and myself pushed forward leasú ar an mBille sin go mbeadh cúrsaí cultúrtha agus cúrsaí teanga mar chuid de fhreagracht na hollscoile nua. It was not put in, unfortunately. We now have a situation where there is a new piece of legislation coming through and I ask the Leader of the House to ensure that any proposals which would bring Thomond in with the new universities would ensure go mbeadh cumas agus cáilíocht Ghaeilge mar choinníoll maidir le haon duine a bheadh ag dul le gairm na múinteoireachta.
It seems to me there is a major move taking place here. I ask the Leader of the House to ensure in regard to anybody being trained and prepared for teaching, that that would be done in a university at third level where a responsibility for language and cultural matters was also included.
I would also like to again raise the position with regard to agriculture. We have had an extended winter and very late season for grass growth.
A question, please.
My question is that, while agreeing totally with the figures given in regard to the decline in farm income. I believe that the prospects for 1991 are worse. Therefore I am asking the Leader when we can have a meaningful debate. Would the Leader agree that this position is not covered sufficiently by just having a debate but that it needs to be monitored on an ongoing basis? When can we have this debate on agriculture and can we have more frequent monitoring?
I also want to ask a question in regard to the health services. I believe they are deteriorating. Since the position is so dire in regard to the casualty departments and in regard to long awaited operations and so on, when will the Leader give us time to have a meaningful and in-depth debate on health?
In view of the very serious implications of the present industrial dispute at the ESB may I ask that all parties concerned make every endeavour to bring this extremely damaging situation to an early resolution because it will have the most horrendous consequences if the dispute continues. In the event of it continuing, may I ask the Leader of the House if he will consider giving us an opportunity for a debate on the matter or at least for statements on it?
I would like to support Senator O'Toole's plea to the Leader of the House to try to ensure that the forthcoming Bill incorporating Thomond College in the University of Limerick will have proper regard for cultural dimensions, particularly the Irish language. It is just as important that the Leader should use his influence, before legislation comes to the House, to provide for the concerns of Members as it is for Members to wrangle about legislation when it comes.
Secondly, I hope the Leader will enable us today or tomorrow to express our support for the welcome new realism in Government policy towards South Africa as represented by the very welcome visit of President De Klerk.
Finally, I must confess to being greatly influenced by an old nostalgia for the faith of my fathers and I was wondering if the Leader has any plans for asking the Fianna Fáil Party to make me an offer I could not refuse.
I am not certain we could make such an offer to Senator Murphy but, given the fact that Senator Ross is taking a career break from the Independents, may I ask the Leader of the House what is the standing of the Independent group as a group in the House, given his defection? May I also ask Senator Ross if he would enlighten a number of——
Senator Ross has not moved to the position of Leader of the House and questions cannot be put to him. Senator Ross is not relevant, as I have said before.
He was never more relevant.
He is extremely relevant to a number of Senators on the far side of the House who are under great stress at the moment given his conversion——
Do not unduly distress yourself over Senator Ross. Keep to the Order of Business.
On behalf of this group, I would like to add support to the several Senators who have requested a debate tomorrow on South Africa. There are many different views in this House on this sensitive issue and I think this is the place to have it debated sensibly and seriously. Given the importance of tomorrow, I request that, if at all possible we facilitate that debate.
There have been two opinions on the matter of the ESB dispute. Without going into it too deeply, I think it would be crazy to carry on this discussion any further. I suggest to the Leader that he might even ignore it in his reply. Negotiations are going on at present and we have no business interfering with them. If they collapse, let us look at it again.
I, too, am interested in the comments being made and the questions asked of the Leader about the possibility of a debate on South Africa. I have been rather interested, since this comment has come up in the last two sittings, that no reference has been made to the commuting of the sentence by the South African Government on Robert Mac-Bride following, I understand, representations from the Irish Government.
Senator Harte has stopped me in my gallop a little because I, too, wish to be associated with the expressions of concern about the ESB dispute, because it affects, for example, the Lough Allen power station in my own area where there is a real threat of the loss of jobs——
I allowed Senator Cosgrave a few comments on this and I have been liberal with every other Senator, but there is a point at which we must call a halt.
I cannot understand why the ETU are putting jobs at risk when——
(Interruptions.)
I hope the Leader will convey the feelings of this House to the appropriate authority——
Put the question to the Leader and you can hope afterwards.
——to terminate this strike, not only to maintain jobs nationally but also jobs in my own area where they are hoping to hold on to jobs.
The Senator has not put a question.
I would like to support Senators O'Toole and Murphy in relation to the proposed amending legislation for the incorporation of Thomond College into the University of Limerick in relation to the cultural and language aspects. I make a special plea to the Leader that this be taken up immediately because students of Thomond College expect to get their degrees sanctioned in June through the University of Limerick. I would also like to support Senator O'Reilly's plea for a immediate debate on the continuing crisis in the health services.
I want to ask the Leader of the House the same question I asked him specifically last week in relation to Local Government Reform Bill. What I specifically wanted to know was: is this House going to be a rubber stamp and is the Dáil just going to be a rubber stamp for decisions which have been taken by the Department and the Minister? In other words, that all the sub-county local authorities are to be——
A question for the Minister — and the merits of a Bill are not a matter for the Order of Business.
The question is: will there be time, if this House and the Dáil so decide, for elections to take place to the sub-county local authorities or will it be so late that we well be told it cannot be done and they will be put out of business? This is my question.
Our beef industry which supplies us with our largest single item of export, is about to self-destruct because of the use of angel dust. Several times in the past I have asked for an adjournment debate on this subject — unsuccesfully, may I add. It is now at crisis point. The Minister for Agriculture rightly described people who are committing this crime as committing national treachery. May I ask the Leader of the House if we could have a debate on this topic without delay? It is extremely serious now.
With regard to this proposed timetable for the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, if we do not meet this timetable, is it the Government's intention to introduce a guillotine?
There is no timetable.
I understood there was. I thank Senator O'Toole for his gracious help.
Secondly, I would like to support what Senator Cosgrave and Senator Conroy said about the ESB and to disagree with Senator Harte and ask that there be some discussion of the ESB strike. I do not think it is appropriate that every time a sensitive issue comes up a number of people suggest that this Chamber is not an appropriate place to debate it. Of course it is. We are letting the people who elected us down if we do not debate it. For that very reason, despite the chorus it is. We are letting the people who elected us down if we do not debate it. For that very reason, despite the chorus of approval from some of my colleagues here when Senator Harte said we shall not debate the matter because it was too sensitive, I put down a motion under Standing Order 29. I will be interested to hear if this strike is regarded by you, Sir, as a matter requiring urgent national attention.
With regard to item No. 31, I do not anticipate that the Leader will agree to take it, and I will do not be putting forward an amendment to the Order of Business, but I would like to ask if, in the light of the fact that there is such a motion on the Order Paper expressing concern about the treatment of prisoners of conscience in Iran, the Leader will inquire whether the Government will take the opportunity of the visit of the Iranian Foreign Minister to this country to express just that concern, which is very widely felt in this country?
Ba mhaith liomsa tacú leis an Seanadóir O'Toole maidir le Coláiste Thuath-Mhumhan, lena chinntiú go gcuirfear béim ar chúrsaí chultúrtha agus Gaeilge in aon réiteach a bheidh ann, agus ag an am céanna go mbeidh Ollscoil na Gaillimhe san áireamh freisin lena dheimhniú go bhfuil siadsan ag comhlíonadh a gcuid dualgas i leith na Gaeilge. Ba mhaith liom chomh maith a fhiafraí den Cheannaire an bhfuil aon socrú á dhéanamh aige le go mbeidh cead agus deis imeachtaí an Tí seo a theilifísiú as Gaeilge, go mbeidh díospóireacht trí Ghaeilge sa Teach seo ar an teilifís, chomh maith leis an gcuid eile.
All the matters that were raised today were of great importance, but Senator Raftery introduced something that is of the greatest concern to this nation and I ask the Leader of the House to think about the beast way of dealing with this. If it is a discussion in the Seanad, it should be done, because what is happening with the angel dust, as it is so described, is national treachery. It is terrible that Irish meat is being taken off the shelves. Whoever is guilty of doing this is guilty of a horrible crime.
There were several references made here today, and one in particular, about why Senator Ross joined Fine Gael. I would like to ask the question to everybody: why would anyone want to join Fine Gael?
I would gladly rise to the bait of the Senator, but no doubt you would not allow me to do so, a Chathaoirligh, so I will desist from so doing. I would like to suggest to the Leader of the House that it would be very appropriate that this House should have a debate on national mining issues. Nationally there is a policy of complete indiscrimination where licences are being handed out like confetti. It has led to major conflicts around the country in areas like Croagh Patrick where the Minister had to make a very welcome intervention, but an intervention at a cost to the State. Let us have a debate to look at this entire national question to seek a more discriminate policy at national level which would result in less strife at a local level around this country.
In regard to the point raised by Senator Cosgrave and, indeed, Senators Harte, Mooney and Conroy dealing with the ESB strike, I am of the view that talks are ongoing in the appropriate place and I do not think it would be proper for us to debate that matter at present.
Senator Brendan Ryan asked for a debate on the prisons system; indeed, he asked previously for such a debate as did Senator Costello and others. I have been speaking with the Minister and either 15 or 16 May has been decided for that debate.
Senator Brendan Ryan also asked about other matters but I have to say in a general way that we have so much legislation that I think we could well be sitting three or maybe even four days a week in the near future. Therefore, the call for extra hours for debates on this, that and the other is something I have to watch very carefully. In particular, Senator Brendan Ryan asked about the Colleges Bill, that is the Bill which gives greater autonomy to the RTCs and permits them to engage in research and development activities. I have noted what he has said and I will ask the Minister again to have the Bill initiated in this House.
Senator Upton asked about a debate on broadcasting. I have no proposals at this time to debate that issue.
A number of Senators queried the procedure for the taking of Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill. The Whips have in their possession a formula which I hope they will accept and I ask them to meet this evening to agree or disagree to it. This is the way forward. If we continue as we have been doing we will be here until July or longer.
Senator McKenna and other Senators queried Senator Shane Ross' intentions. He is a very charming, witty and good humoured man and I am sure he will be an asset to the Fine Gael Party. Deputy John Bruton should watch out because his job might be at stake.
Senator Naughten asked about reform of local government, as did Senator Hederman. My understanding is that the Bill will be with both Houses of the Oireachtas shortly—I hope we will have it first—and will be completely by the end of May. It will not interfere in any way with the elections due to take place on 27 June.
Senator Costello and other Senators asked for a debate on education and referred to the White Paper. The Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, indicated to me that she will come to the Seanad. It is a question of getting the appropriate arrangements in place. She is very anxious to discuss all aspects of education.
Senator Costello also asked about statements on the visit of Mr. De Klerk. I have no such proposals. Senator Doyle and other Senators asked for a debate on South Africa which we will consider.
Senators Hussey, Byrne and others asked for a debate on agriculture. We had a debate recently on that important matter. I accept that changes are taking place rapidly and if time permits. I will endeavour to arrange a debate on agriculture as soon as possible. The same applies to Senator O'Reilly's comments and Senator Hourigan's comments on the health services.
I hope I have replied to Senator O'Toole's queries on the visit of Mr. De. Klerk and on the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, I would urge the Whips to get together this evening regarding the Environmental Protection Agency Bill. It is important that we have a proper structure and procedure to avoid delays and problems.
Senator O'Toole asked about education. As did Senators Murphy and Pól O Foighil, he asked about the University of Limerick Bill. That Bill provides for the amalgamation of Thomond College and the University of Limerick. I will bring the points raised by the various Senators to the attention of the Minister. Senator Murphy also asked about that matter. I think the Senator indicated he would like to join our party. At this point what we in the party are looking for is nourishment, not punishment. The question of whether the Independent Members will be a group is more appropriate to Senator O'Toole.
Senator Raftery and Senator Hanafin asked very important questions on angel dust. The Minister attached much importance to this when he was with us and I will endeavour to do something on this.
Senator Jackman referred to the University of Limerick Bill. Senator Norris asked about a guillotine. I do not understand the meaning of the word "guillotine" I prefer to use the words "allocation of time", which will not apply to that Bill.
Senator Norris also asked about item No. 31 but I am not a position to take that now.
Senator Ó Foighil asked for a díospóireacht as Gaeilge, which will be considered. Senator Staunton asked about a debate on national mining for which I have no current proposals.
Order of Business agreed to.