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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 May 1991

Vol. 128 No. 11

Confidence in the Minister for the Environment: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann has no confidence in the Minister for the Environment.

The reason my party have put down this motion is that we are satisfied that the Minister for the Environment has lost the battle at the Cabinet table to secure adequate funding for local authorities and for the many programmes for which the Minister is directly responsible. We feel that in the area of roads we have a major problem, not just with our national roads but with our county roads structure which, as every Member of this House knows, has fallen into total disrepair. We also have a major problem with regard to reduction in spending on our water and sewerage schemes. For example, many group schemes throughout the country, for which local contributions are forthcoming from local people to provide those supplies, are not getting back-up services from the Department of the Environment. We have the scandalous situation with regard to local authority housing and the abolition of the house improvement grants, all of which have caused major problems for very many people. We have people living in absolutely appalling housing conditions, people living with in-laws or in mobile accommodation who, at the rate of funding over the last two years, will be unable to get permanent housing for the next six to ten years. That is an indictment of this Government and their policy with regard to housing.

The abolition of the house improvement grants removed a major advantage which gave an opportunity to many people to improve their housing conditions. We have the situation at present where 30,000 families are living without bathrooms and with outside toilets. Even given the £2 million the Government have allocated for that programme and costing it a £6,000 per house it will mean that even at the turn of the century we will have a substantial number of those people still without inside toilets and adequate bathroom accommodation. That is an appalling indictment of our society.

Within one mile of the Minister's office we have whole areas of Dublin in a diabolical state with people living in squalor. I believe the vast sums of money which have been spent by the Department of the Environment on their own offices and by the Taoiseach on his offices would have been far more appropriately spent on trying to improve the housing conditions of the vast majority of those people to which I refer, the 30,000 people living without bathrooms and without indoor toilets.

There are a number of other issues which I hope to address during this debate. Many of the issues which arise here have knock-on effects. For example, the lack of adequate funding for our roads is undoubtedly affecting our employment situation thereby driving many of our young people out of this country because of lack of jobs. The failure of the Government to provide adequate funding for housing is also contributing massively towards unemployment. Many of the small building contractors who up to this were building local authority houses throughout the country now are working for local authorities in London, Manchester or in New York, simply because the funding is not forthcoming from the Department of the Environment to the local authorities to fill the numbers of houses they need to alleviate the terrible plight of many families here.

Let me put on record that because of this lack of funding our emigration figures — I have the figures here from the Central Statistics Office — indicate that on the latest four year figures 136,000 people have emigrated, compared with 71,000 for the preceding four years. If it were not for the huge numbers emigrating can anybody here imagine the disastrous housing situation we would have? Can you imagine the queues of people for housing in addition to those who are queueing up already? At the rate of house building in my own local authority anybody applying for a local authority house today will have to wait at least six years before being housed. I know of many families living in diabolical housing conditions, families living in houses with rain coming in. Yet they cannot get housed by the local authority. This year the local authority in County Roscommon, with a population of 50,000, can build only 13 family-type houses. That is what is being built for a population of 50,000.

How many are on the housing list?

There are 122 on the housing list, and you can calculate how long it will take to house those people. That is just one indication.

I believe that the Minister has lost the battle for adequate funding for this programme. We cannot stand idly by and allow this situation to continue because if we do we are contributing to the hardship of those people living without a proper roof over their heads. Others are living with relatives and inevitably that creates certain tensions and family pressures. Others are living in mobile homes. I do not think there is any Member here but can remember at least two or three times per year reading in the newspapers where a mobile home has gone on fire and sometimes, unfortunately, there is a loss of life. That is the type of situation that has arisen.

Prior to this Minister coming into office — and I would like to remind the House that he is now 15 months in office — our housing list had pratically been abolished because of the active approach of the two preceding Ministers and the preceding Government towards funding a proper housing programme. Let me also remind the House of the many schemes introduced by the previous Government, such as the house improvement grant scheme, as a result of which we could see throughout the country a substantial improvement in the standard of housing, particularly the pre-1940 houses, where tremendous improvements were made to that stock of houses. Many of them were repaired, thus saving the Irish taxpayer substantial money in providing alternative accommodation. We had the added bonus in that scheme, which was abolished by this Minister, of getting people to spend money to improve their homes, thereby creating employment. Unfortunately, that scheme is gone now, thus adding to our unemployment problem and increasing the demand for additional new local authority housing.

If one examines the Minister's new proposals with regard to social housing, A Plan for Social Housing, one wonders is the Minister serious, because that programme suggests that you can own half a house — you can have one half of it on a loan from a building society and the local authority will own the other half. This is a crazy scheme. The sooner it is recognised for what it is and the Minister is told that it is unacceptable and unsuitable, the better. People like to own their own home or, if they do not own it, they like to rent it from the local authority and at some stage buy it from the authority. Under this system they will never own their home in their own lifetime, because for the first 25 years of their life they are going to pay a loan to the building society and for the next 25 years of their life, if they are still around, they are going to pay it to the local authority. That is crazy.

There are many other proposals in that document which have not been thought out or costed. I would seriously question this drifting away and taking control from local authorities of the allocation, purchase and building of houses in local authority areas. We have this idea of giving money to social groups. I have no doubt that it has certain merit, but it is extremely difficult to control. At a time when we are paying lip service to local government reform we should be vesting more control in the local authorities, in their members and not removing it as this document appears to do.

I have absolutely no doubt that in that document there is real danger. The danger is that we will have groups of people operating in different areas and there will be no dove-tailing between the groups whether it be St. Vincent de Paul or some social housing agency. They will be all going out buying houses. They can get the money from the Department of the Environment, but the local authority cannot. That is a crazy system. Again, it is eroding the powers of local authorities and of local authority members. I genuinely believe that, if this scheme goes through, after two years we will be much worse off in regard to the housing market than we are at present, simply because of this idea that you can get a loan for half your house and the other half will be owned by the local authority.

Let us examine other areas for which this Minister has been responsible. Take for example, the roads programme. There are some aspects of the road building programme which bear close examination. I do not know of any group of people who are so frustrated as the Irish motorists because of the condition of our national and county roads. Our intercity routes are all clogged up. I drove to Dublin this morning and was delayed for half an hour in Maynooth in two miles of traffic. Look at all the time wasted and the cost to the Irish taxpayer because of the loss of that time, simply because we have not a proper roads structure.

You would have been delayed in Athlone for an hour some months ago; it is six minutes now.

I am aware of that. In 1984 the then Coalition Government introduced a major roads programme, of which the Athlone by-pass was part. I am delighted to see that as a result of the steps taken in 1984 we now have the Athlone by-pass. A lot of money has been spent on those roads and it is an excellent investment for our Government. At present we get 75 per cent grant assistance from the EC for the construction of those major roads. When one realises that the materials that go into the building of these roads are subject to 21 per cent VAT and when you take into consideration the amount of PRSI and other taxes that are paid as a result of the construction of those roadways, it is evident that the Exchequer gains from every £1 spent. However, the expenditure on those roadways has dropped substantially as a result of decisions taken by Government over the last three years. The amount of money coming from the EC for the construction of roads has increased but the Exchequer percentage has reduced, hence we have this slow down.

In no country in Europe is more money collected from the motorist than in Ireland. When one takes into consideration the amount of tax on petrol and the purchase of a car, the amount one pays, in road tax and insurance, there is no group in the whole of Europe as heavily penalised as the Irish motorist and no group in the whole of Europe has worse roads. Whether it is the main routes from Dublin to Cork, Belfast, Galway or Sligo, we all know several bottlenecks on those roads where time out of number traffic is held up and the whole country is brought to a halt simply because there may be an accident or a lorry may have broken down. That is disgraceful. I do not see any major effort by this Government or by the Minister for the Environment, who is now over four years in office, to try to get this programme up and running and completed. I have already pointed out that road building is a net asset to the country because it helps to reduce our unemployment, we can gain revenue on the amount of materials used, which is subject to 21 per cent VAT, and we get 75 per cent from the EC fund. It is crazy.

We come now to the other category of roads on which the vast majority of houses in rural Ireland are located. I refer to our county roads, where we have the situation that in many parts of Ireland one cannot travel over the roadways as a result of lack of maintenance in the past number of years, particularly the past two to three years, because of lack of sufficient funding to the local authorities. In my own county, Roscommon, for example, at the present rate it would be 20 years before we could resurface all of our county roads. That is an appalling situation. We have some of the worst roads in the country. I know of a situation where a man intends to cut silage on 1 June and the silage contractor will not draw the silage because, as a result of the poor condition of the county roads, his trailers would be badly damaged. We have situations where creamery lorries will not travel on certain roads to collect milk. These people are paying tax and insurance on their cars. They are entitled to a service the same as the man living in a house on the side if a national primary and national secondary route. It is appalling the way the Government have washed their hands of this and left those people without proper ways of commuting to and from their place of work or of conveying their produce to the market place.

Other decisions taken by the Minister for the Environment had a detrimental effect on the progress made by the previous Government. For example, in Dublin we had the abolition of the Metropolitan Streets Commission, which I believe was disastrous and has left the inner city in a shambles. People cannot invest in Dublin simply because they do not know what the future plans are. That commission was set up by the then Minister for the Environment, the then Deputy John Boland, to try to come to grips with the whole question of the revitalisation of the inner city.

The urban renewal plan of 1986 for designated areas has suffered severely as a result of the present Minister for the Environment. The Government abolished the Dublin Transport Authority, which was set up to monitor and control transport, deal with bus lanes, railway routes, the DART service and feeder routes for it, and the whole question of the roads structure for Dublin. I believe it was a retrograde step to abolish that Authority. The Minister seems to be more concerned with abolishing what was done prior to his coming into office rather than making real progress and dealing with the traffic situation here in Dublin and with the development of the inner city to get rid of the ghettos. We hear the sounds, but we do not see action on the ground.

Take also the Constituency Review Commission. Terms of reference were given to them which resulted in the first report being aborted and having to be scrapped. I have my own reservations about the second report. Was it to guarantee two three-seaters in Mayo? How is it that we ended up with a constituency straddling two provinces, two different health board areas, two different regional development areas, two different tourist areas, nothing in common? I find it difficult to accept that that just happened by accident, because the criteria were for minimum change. It was one of the guidelines laid down. Quite clearly, in that particular constituency that was not adhered to.

I am sure my colleagues will forgive me for becoming parochial for a moment, and the Minister of State present will be quite aware of what I am going to say. We have major problems in the Shannon valley. We had the honour of meeting the Minister of State some 15 months ago when we were seeking funding for a major problem in the midlands, where for three months each year a number of families become marooned and totally cut off. The only way they can get to Mass, to work and to school is either by the Army coming in and taking them out by boat. The members of Roscommon County Council made a reasonable case to the Minister of State for a sum of £160,000 to allow those families to be able to commute by raising the roads over water level. Unfortunately, that money has not been made available to the local authority.

How long can we stand idly by and allow people to suffer those conditions annually? The Minister for the Environment, for reasons best known to him, ignored our plea for help. Compare that £160,000 with the huge sums of money that were spent in County Mayo on the route from Castlerea to Castlebar. Roads were raised by four or five feet. No problem, but nothing for the people of Roscommon. Compare that with the money that was given in the Golden Island-Clonbunny area where roads were raised by two to three feet. Again, it would appear that Minister O'Rourke was able to twist the Minister's arm — she was probably friendlier with him then than she is now. She was able to get the money for that side of the Shannon, but there was nothing for Roscommon, or the western bank of the Shannon.

This is an indication of what happened. We got a total of £100,000 for storm and flood damage from the Department of the Environment, a county with the Shannon on one side and the Suck on the other, where huge problems were created; but they were totally ignored by the Minister and his colleagues.

At present a great number of people are living in overcrowded conditions. We have seen fit to ignore those people and their problems. I would draw the attention of the Minister to the plan for social housing. In that plan for social housing we see where the Minister is prepared to give £3,300 to people who are leaving local authority houses and buying their own homes. Five years ago one of the Minister of State's predecessors decided to give £5,000 to such people. That programme was a major success because it got many people out of local authority houses and this released a whole range of houses for reallocation. In this new programme, which is supposed to be progress, we are going to give £3,300. I ask the Minister does he seriously think that in this day and age that programme will work? The Minister should introduce the figure of £5,000, which it was five years ago, plus inflation. The appropriate figure would probably be in the region of £6,000.

It is our view that the Minister has failed miserably to get sufficient funding for the programmes for which he is responsible. He has failed to get adequate funds for roads. He has failed to provide the necessary funding for local authorities to provide and maintain the level of county roads. I would also like to remind the Minister that in 1977, when his party decided to abolish domestic rates, every citizen here was told that that money would be made up by a rates support grant. The Minister knows, and I know, that each year that rates support grant reduced gradually to a stage where it is now no longer sufficient to meet many of the statutory obligations that local authorities have. In other words, the Minister and his colleagues in Government have failed to honour the commitment they made in 1977. The manifesto is still there, hanging around their necks. The commitment was that the money raised in rates would be made up by the rates support grant. That has not been given and consequently local authorities have been strangled for funding. Hence we have the diabolical condition of our county roads with the result that many people cannot commute to work or carry on their normal business of farming and get their produce to the market place.

I will conclude by referring to one other matter which I and my colleagues find totally unacceptable: it is the manner in which the Minister has gone about the allocation of the national lottery moneys which come through the Department of the Environment. We had a paper exercise here — obviously to appease the Progressive Democrats — a year and a half ago when it was stated that the local authority would have to approve every application before it would go before the Minister for the Environment. What did we get? A rubber-stamping exercise where bundles of applications came in from genuine and sincere community groups. They genuinely believed that if the local authority approved them they were in line for money; but of course what was never properly explained to them was that this was merely a rubber-stamping exercise, that the local authority got those applications in, was not allowed to categorise them, was not allowed to give them priority, but that they went back to the Minister. What do we find happening there? The same as happened before. No change was made. All that happened was that local authority time and energy was used and abused. We still have the corrupt situation where money is handed out for doubtful purposes. The Acting Chairman knows that in our constituency money was given for a tennis court. There was no site for the tennis court. The money was there so a footpath was put in which was too high and cars could not back in. That is just one example and I can give you more. That is how money is wasted and this Minister has allowed that system to continue.

The Minister was sincere when he asked the local authority to process those applications but he should have given those local authorities the power to say that of 50 applications there are five priority applications and we are seeking funding for those. If one examines how this funding is allocated one finds that in a constituency which has senior Ministers the amount being allocated per head of population is four times that allocated to other counties. The Minister has also allowed this situation to continue.

The Minister was dishonest with both Houses of the Oireachtas and with the local authority when he asked them to undertake the sham of rubber-stamping those applications. The general public believed that the local authorities had an input when in fact they had none. It was much like the banner headlines we read in the papers last Saturday week, that £124 million was allocated for roads. If one did not read the fine print one would imagine that the Minister for the Environment was giving another £124 million. What he did was call in the county engineers and instructed them to spend whatever moneys they had before the local elections. What is going to happen afterwards? There will not be a penny available for the next six months. Whatever moneys are available for county roads are going to be spent between now and the elections. It is an absolute untruth to indicate that this money is available and that there was going to be a crash programme for three weeks. Who has seen the crash programme? Where is it happening? In my county we have £1 million for county roads and we did not get any additional money. I established that with the county engineer within the last few days. I want to recommend this motion to the House.

I wish to second the motion in the name of the Fine Gael Party as proposed by Senator Naughten. Any impartial person listening to Senator Naughten tonight and having knowledge of the situation could describe what he has presented here as nothing other than a litany of failures on the part of the Minister concerned. Senator Naughten has given an accurate representation of what a large section of the public, many councillors and local representatives accept as fact. For that reason, I note with total amazement the amendment that has been put down by the Government party. The amendment asks us to reject our motion and goes on to ask the Seanad to note the record of achievement of the Minister. It refers to the various policy areas for which he is responsible and calls on the Minister to continue the development and the implementation of the relevant national policies which Senator Naughten has so ably described as damaging.

I want to ask the Government party if they are serious about inviting Seanad Éireann to endorse this record of failure. Is it a serious invitation and have they considered, should the Seanad pass this amendment, how it may influence the Minister to continue to ignore the potholed roads that we have in every parish and townland, to ignore the shambles of local government housing, with which Deputy Naughten has dealt in depth, and to ignore the plight of many couples who have no hope of getting a local authority house and who are in urgent need of one?

The dramatic fall in the number of houses built by local authorities over the past few years has resulted in a growing waiting list. The absence of these houses which should be built or be in the course of construction is the cause of much overcrowding and hardship. Of the many failures which Senator Naughten has outlined and of which the Minister and his Department can be accused, the failure to provide finance for the construction of sufficient numbers of local authority houses and the repairs of our county roads are the two most pressing issues.

For the Government to table this amendment and to condone the failures we have outlined here — the absence of adequate local authority housing and the appalling conditions of rural roads — and for the Government parties to imply congratulations to the Minister on what are referred to here as his achievements is extraordinary and I cannot let the occasion pass without comment. In addition to that, and this will probably be of some interest in the weeks ahead, if this is to be the local election manifesto of the Fianna Fáil Party it is certainly an amazing one.

We have a few more rabbits in the hat.

Having read this Government amendment I pity the unfortunate Fianna Fáil local election candidates who will be trying to persuade a rural family living at the end of many miles of potholed roads that their No. 1 votes are vital so that the Minister may be convinced he is doing the right thing.

Senator Kiely will get his opportunity to speak. I can imagine the reception the Fianna Fáil local election candidates will find at the door of an overcrowded household where there is an attempt to accommodate two or three families within it — some of them perhaps even sharing one room — because of the Minister's failure. The response these candidates will receive would be far more eloquent than anything I could say here this evening.

I expect, because I am looking across at Senator Foley and I see he has the "Programme for Social Housing" with him, that they will refer to this programme. They will attempt to convey that it is the answer to the housing problems and it is not. It has been in place for some time. It was brought in with a great display of publicity but it is having little or no impact on the situation. The uptake is certainly disappointing in my county and on present indications will not provide the solution required.

I support a point made by Senator Naughten in relation to the value of the house reconstruction grants that were removed by the Minister. The sum of £3,300 spread over four years as proposed in that programme is not an adequate incentive. Senator Naughten's figure of £5,000, plus inflation, would perhaps provide the incenitve that is needed to enable the programme to make some impact on the situation.

Reference will be made to the National Roads Authority. It may well be a worthwhile authority but its mandate relates to the national primary roads network and not to the county roads. The problem roads of rural Ireland will not come under its control but will remain in the same system that has brought about their present condition. I have an open mind with regard to the National Roads Authority. I wish it well and it may be the answer but until we see it in operation we cannot come to a conclusion on it.

I refer to the fire brigade action the Minister, Deputy Flynn, undertook a few weeks ago by calling in the county engineers and giving them three weeks to fill the potholes in Ireland. That is some challenge and it gives rise to two separate but equally serious questions. Is it a cynical exercise to do a slap dash, superficial job that will leave them in reasonable condition until the local elections are over? If so, then I am satisfied it will be seen as a sham. Perhaps on the other hand — I am prepared to listen to the response with an open mind — it reflects a belief of the Minister or of his Department that there is or has been incompetence or waste of scarce resources at local level in dealing with roads in recent times. It is one or the other. I pose the question and I expect a response.

The Minister called in 27 county engineers and told them there was £120 million available to repair county roads and three weeks in which to do it. If the county roads can be put right in three weeks in the year 1991 why is it that in any other year over 52 weeks it could not be done?

Modern technology.

Perhaps Senator Kiely will explain the modern technology when he makes his contribution.

In the few minutes remaining to me, taking a lead from Senator Naughten who availed of his opportunity to refer to a local issue, since we have the Minister, Deputy Connolly, here, I refer to the matter of the distribution of the £514 million for primary road grants under the EC programme on peripherality. County Clare has been ignored. Apart from a relatively small sum required to complete the bridge at Bunratty, no further moneys are being provided for primary road development. There is widespread disappointment in County Clare that it has been ignored in the allocation. There are four major bottle necks on the national primary road from Limerick to Galway through County Clare-New-market-on-Fergus, Clarecastle, Ennis and Crusheen. They were identified as such and given a high priority in the national roads programmes in 1979 and 1985 and they have been denied funding under the present programme. Apart from the traffic hazard of having four bottlenecks — we may be the only county at the end of this programme to have these bottlenecks on the national primary roads through our county — it represents a serious loss of many millions to the economy of the county.

Many towns that have been provided with by-passes have only half the traffic flows of the four towns I referred to. Having been given a high priority in the national roads programme in 1979 and 1985 they have been knocked during the administration of the present Minister and taken out under his jurisdiction. An explanation is due to my county and I hope the Minister will avail of the opportunity that this debate represents to convey the justification for that change.

I endorse the points made by Senator Naughten. I have tried to add further justification for putting this motion before the Seanad. I cannot accept that the Government party are serious in putting forward their amendment and I sincerely hope the Seanad will reject it.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes the record of achievement of the Minister for the Environment in the various policy areas for which he is responsible, and calls on the Minister to continue the development and implementation of relevant policies and programmes, particularly in relation to the environment, road development, social housing, water and sanitary services and local Government reform generally."

I hope to address some of the points made by Senator Naughten and Senator Howard especially with regard to housing and roads. I will deal first with housing.

The Plan for Social Housing published in February 1991 is a policy document of major importance which heralds a more innovative response to social housing needs in this country. It broadens the powers, responsibilities and options available to local authorities in meeting the housing needs of their areas. The main aim of the plan is to improve the housing prospects of households of limited means by providing quicker access to suitable housing while making the most efficient and best use of the available resources. There is a new system of shared ownership. I will be referring to the Plan for Social Housing in relation to local authority facilities and to the access available for improving on this plan.

The improvement or extension of applicants' houses by local authorities is provided for as a more economic and quicker alternative to rehousing in certain circumstances. The Minister has recently introduced a special reconstruction grant of up to £10,000 for people on the housing lists of the various local authorities. This is very attractive since many people on housing authority lists at the moment have their own homes but they are in bad condition. Many of them will opt for this grant to retain the home they own and by availing of this grant will go off the local authority list.

There is a new rental subsidy scheme for low income households taking up occupation of approved accommodation provided by voluntary bodies. That is already a success in most local authority areas, especially in Kerry. I would like to compliment local bodies and in particular the St. Vincent de Paul Society who have been involved in this scheme.

A mortgage allowance will reduce mortgage repayments over the first five years for tenants returning their dwellings to the local authorities and purchasing or building a house for themselves. This is attractive and such houses, I hope, will be sold by the various local authorities.

Provision has been made for more flexible lending arrangements by local authorities to housing co-operatives, including block loans and instalment payments, and the provision of sites and technical assistance. We have seen this in many local authorities. In Kerry there are four such schemes at the moment which are proving very attractive. There is a very good housing programme in operation for travelling people and the Minister has been responsible for this. Further progress has been made in the programme for the refurbishment and upgrading of substandard local authority housing with greater participation by tenants.

A programme has recently been introduced for the installation of bathroom and toilet facilities in much of the older housing stock throughout the various local authority areas. This was long overdue. New safeguards have been introduced for tenants in the private rented sector where tenants now have to be supplied with a rent book, which is a step in the right direction. Many fly-by-night landlords collected money on a weekly basis, no rent books were supplied and consequently people had no legal standing.

Senators Naughten and Howard referred to the housing stock. The completion of housing had been in decline since the early eighties and increased for the first time in 1989 and again in 1990. In 1987, private house completions totalled 15,376 and local authority house completions totalled 3,074 making a total of 18,450. For the same period in 1990, the total figure was 19,542. The capital provision for local authority housing in 1988 was £48 million, in 1989 it was £36.5 million and in 1990 it was £51 million. That was made up of £45 million from local authority capital receipts plus £6 million Exchequer funding, while in 1991 the figure was £69 million made up of £32 million local authority capital receipts plus £37 million from the Exchequer. The level of funding for the local authority housing programme was increased to £51 million in 1990, reversing the trend in previous years when the capital available had reduced each year since 1984. In 1991 the capital allocation for the local authority housing programme was further increased to £69 million, by over 35 per cent on 1990 figures.

In addition to the ongoing programme of remedial works, £2 million has been allocated in 1991 to fund the introduction of a new subprogramme to assist local authorities in providing bathrooms in their rented dwellings. The Government is fully committed to improving the situation with regard to travellers' accommodation. The sum of £3 million is available this year for the provision of serviced sites for travellers. For various reasons, allocations in previous years have not been fully expended. The Minister is taking special steps to prevail on all local authorities to discharge their responsibilities in regard to the accommodation of travellers.

The Housing Act of 1988 represented a major breakthrough in legislation for the needs of homeless people. It defined "homelessness" for the first time in housing legislation and provided local authorities with a wide range of additional powers and resources to secure accommodation for homeless persons.

This week the Roads Bill, 1991, was introduced by the Minister to establish the National Roads Authority on a statutory footing and update, strengthen and modernise the law on public roads. Under the Bill, the National Roads Authority will have overall responsibility for planning and supervising the construction, improvement and maintenance of the network of national roads. National roads represents under 6 per cent of the total road mileage but account for 30 per cent of total road traffic, of which two-thirds is work related. The long term development programme for these roads is estimated to cost £3.6 billion. The Bill places a general duty on the Authority to secure the provision of a safe and efficient network of national roads and assigns to it the following functions: the Authority will prepare medium term plans for the development of national roads; it will prepare or arrange for the preparation of road designs, maintenance programmes and schemes for the provision of traffic signs on national roads; it will secure the carrying out of construction, improvement and maintenance works on national roads. It will also allocate grants for national roads. The Authority will have wide powers. Classification of public roads has been simplified. Three classes are proposed: national, regional and local.

Senator Naughten referred to a problem in Roscommon. Would it be possible to carry out that work under the discretionary grants scheme? We have rectified similar situations in Kerry under the discretionary grants scheme.

Our discretionary grants are so small we would not be able to do that.

Is that so? Over a period of time we have solved problems with that grant. Provision is being made in the Bill for the environmental impact assessment of proposed roads development, including motorways, busways and certain other types of road construction and improvement. Road authorities are also being given power to provide cycle ways, which are most welcome.

The National Roads Authority will play a leading role in the planning and supervision of the development of our national roads network. With regard to the allocation and paying of grants for national roads the Authority will have power to issue directions to rural authorities to carry out certain specified functions in relation to the construction, improvement and maintenance of national roads and will be able to carry out the functions itself where the Authority fails or refuses to comply with the directive. The Authority will promote the case for the EC assistance for national roads and the provision of private funding, including the power to borrow and to levy tolls.

The Minister has done excellent work during his period in the Department of the Environment with very limited funding and he has been instrumental in bringing in some very worthwhile legislation. With regard to the potholes crash programme planned over the next three or four weeks, this is the time to carry out such work because we are leading up to the tourist season and it is very important that our road structure should be good. It is no use carrying out this work in the fall when the weather is bad. I am hopeful that local authorities will respond. Before the Minister made that request we in Kerry County Council decided at a county council meeting in December or early January, that any works to be carried out on the roads, especially county roads, should be carried out during the months of April and May so that they would be completed for the summer. It will be worthwhile and will pay dividends.

I cannot see any reason why we cannot look forward to progress over the next two to three years. I would like to see more money being ploughed back into county roads because we need a good road structure. Unfortunately that money is not there at the moment but with the limited funds available very worthwhile work has been done.

Caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil mé ag éirí ar mo chosa anocht le rud éigin a rá faoin Aire Comhshaoil nach dtaithníonn liom mar go bhfeicim nach bhfuil sé ar aon bhealach sásúil go mbeadh Aire i mbun aireachta nach bhfuil in ann na bunphrionsabail a bhaineann lena aireacht a chomhlíonadh. Rinne an tAire ráiteas cúpla seachtain ó shin. He said that last winter was a wrecker of roads, due to rain and particularly ice. The ice gets underneath the surface, expands the roads which then breaks up.

Sin ráiteas an Aire Comhshaoil. As the interviewer said to him on the same occasion, "what happens the roads in the North of Ireland? We had the same rain and the same frost and their roads were not wrecked." We had the director of the CIF only two weeks ago saying a national pothole emergency should be declared by the Minister of the Environment. Despite the clear public demand for basic road maintenance, the local authorities have not delivered. The Minister is indicted by those two statements.

I must go back to 1961. In 1961 Fianna Fáil brought in an Act while in office known as the Civil Liability Act. The Bill passed all Stages in the Dáil and in the Seanad and was duly signed by President de Valera. Section 60 of the Civil Liability Act, 1961 clearly states: "A road authority shall be liable for damage caused as a result of their failure to maintain adequately a public road." It also states that in determining whether a road was adequately maintained regard shall be had, in particular, to the construction of the road and the standard of maintenance appropriate to a road of such construction, to the traffic using the road, to the condition in which a reasonable person would have expected to find the road. It states that this section shall come into operation on such day not earlier than 1 April 1967 as may be fixed therefore by order of the Government. The date is very important, 1 April.

The first day of April is known in my language as All Fools Day. That day has been used by the Department and by the Minister for the Environment to downgrade every road in Ireland and to make by-roads and stop-end roads impassable. It was brought in by the Fianna Fáil Government who saw the necessity for this measure in 1961 but they have been fooling the people. When you consider the horrific state of the roads it is an outrage against the citizens of this country that a Fianna Fáil Government and a Fianna Fáil Minister of the Environment have refused again to give effect to an Act of Dáil Éireann that they enacted in 1961 on behalf of the people of Ireland. They were entrusted by the people of Ireland to do something for them. Fianna Fáil brought in an Act making the county councils responsible for damage to property or to persons. They set a period of six years to get ready for it but when the six years were up they failed to act.

The Minister for the Environment stands indicted as a Minister of the same Government who have not the willpower or the guts to implement the provisions of the legislation. It was unconstitutional of Fianna Fáil not to act. They actually cannibalised the very Act they brought in and they virtually repealed their own Act. It is quite evident from the wording of that Act that the law was to be reformed and that was the intention of Fianna Fáil. That was 30 years ago and we are now suffering the consequences of that inactivity. During that period also the English authorities had the same difficulties but they passed appropriate laws and honoured what they enacted in Parliament. Fianna Fáil did not honour what they enacted by legislation in 1961 and that applies to the present day. That is an indictment of Fianna Fáil. They have fooled the Irish people and they appropriately chose 1 April as the implementing day.

There is no better person to fool the public than the Minister for the Environment. I listened to him last night on television and he said there was no problem, there were reports coming in all over the country that the roads were in good order. I repeat what he said on that programme. He said last winter was a wrecker of roads due to rain and particularly ice. The ice gets underneath, the surface expands the roads which then break up. There is a magnificent statement by a Minister for the Environment. That is an intellectual statement, an engineering observation, that we can say the roads are in such a dilapidated state. Only two nights ago Senator Ó Cuív on the other side of the House and I attended a public meeting. I walked out of the meeting in disgust because I said: "nothing will be done in my lifetime to remedy the state of the stop-end roads in Connemara". The will is not there. Less money is available this year from the same Minister for the Environment to tackle this problem despite what he is saying. It is no wonder there is a motion of no confidence before the House here tonight because of it. It is inexcusable.

How much money was invested?

Will the Minister of State please not interrupt me. I do not interrupt the Minister when he speaks. That is the tradition of this House. If the Minister wants to interrupt me he can, because when he gets up to speak I will have a go at him very quickly. I am making a statement of fact.

The Senator is not.

I am, and I beg to differ with the Minister. He did not travel the roads of Connemara last week. He knows nothing of the state of the roads. Neither does the Minister for the Environment know anything because he refused to come to talk to the people and see for himself the poor condition of the roads. In Oxford the local authority have issued to householders a leaflet which reads "Post a Pothole". They issued postcards to householders and on receipt of the cards giving details of potholes in the area the necessary repairs are carried out within 48 hours. That is Utopia. That was done by legislation. Fianna Fáil put the legislation through but did not implement it. They backed away from it and they have been backing away from it for the past 30 years. It is a national disgrace that the people of Ireland, and the people of Connemara especially, cannot now travel upon the roads which the councils took over and cannot now maintain, because they have less money made available this year than last year. By the same token, nearly £50 million has been spent on the by-pass in Athlone. Fair play to Athlone; £40 million for six miles. For £40 million we could repair every road in Connaught.

That is the difference, no EC money for us. Our Minister for the Environment is making sure no EC money gets west of the Shannon. That area has been neglected. The potholes are only one issue; the post offices are another matter. There is a whole range of issues. As a worker-director, of CIE said the 1932 Act will be repealed and then there will not be a bus to bring an old age pensioner to the nearest town to collect his pension. That is from a worker-director of CIE, a man who has an intimate knowledge of what is going on. Will the Minister take action similar to that adopted in Oxford? Will he arrange to have the potholes filled within 48 hours? A county manager stated that he has no money to spend on roads.

That is the position we are in. That is the kind of Minister we have and that is the Minister for the Environment we are castigating here tonight, and rightly so. If he had done his job he would be here and we would praise him. Take, for example, the storm damage of six months ago. A graveyard in Connemara was swept away, human bones uncovered, and not a sign yet of anything being done because the Minister for the Environment said, "That is a matter for Roinn na Mara; that concerns the Department of Fisheries". Therefore, it is left as it is, nothing done about it.

(Interruptions.)

A storm is rising and it will not be taking away a graveyard in Connemara but Fianna Fáil and the Minister with it. It will take them for a good sweep into the sea. Another matter I wish to refer are the demountable homes. There are about 100 of them in Connemara. This is the brainchild of Fianna Fáil, this is the money of Fianna Fáil. You have demountable homes which are nothing but hovels. That is the way we are treating the elderly people, the daoine uasail of Connemara. I can bring anyone on a tour of 100 demountable homes that are a disgrace to the country and a disgrace to the Minister who is responsible. If there is anything that should make the Minister resign, apart from the potholes, it is the disgraceful way we are treating the poor and disadvantaged of our society, the old and the people who cannot forage for themselves. They are in droves, living in accommodation in which the roofs are leaking, and the windows broken. I went into a demountable home after the last storm and found two inches of water in it. Not a penny was available——

(Interruptions.)

The Senator does not want to listen. He thinks that by interrupting he will get me off the subject. He is making a great mistake because I will hammer this anywhere and any time I can. The Minister should be sitting here tonight; he should be listening to what I have to say because he is the Minister for the Environment. He is the man who is going on radio and television and being quoted in the press as saying that "Everything is rosy. We had frost and it undermined the roads". One interviewer pointed out to him that the roads in the North suffered from frost but the roads there are still in good condition.

It is no problem for me to find roads in such bad condition, that are a reproach to the Minister for the Environment, because they are widespread in Connemara, have suffered greatly from lack of money, money which should have been made available to local authorities. I invite anyone, including the Minister, to travel on 100 roads in Connemara. They are not county roads, they are roads on which there are six, seven, eight, nine and ten families living, roads which people have to negotiate daily. Only last Saturday I drove along a by-road in Connemara in áit in aice le Costello — tá a fhios ag na Seanadóirí go maith cá bhfuil sé — the school bus will not traverse that road and my car had to be lifted out of a pothole by four stalwart men. For two years we have been agitating to get someone in to fix the roads and yet the Minister goes on television and says "Everything is rosy. We are in good fettle. The roads will be done".

I thought that perhaps there was some genuine reason why the Fine Gael Party had put down this motion, however, when I thought about it I realised it was not genuine. There are reasons of course, why they have put it down. They are genuine to the extent that they think they will pull the wool over the public's eyes.

There are two reasons why they have this motion down, which have very little to do with the Minister for the Environment. Firstly, it is a local election gimmick which is fair enough. Any political party are entitled to have to "go" when an election is due. They are entitled to pull down the pitchforks and the guns and come out shooting, or whatever. I do not mind that at all, but there is another reason. They have a popular vote of 20 per cent in the country at present and they are in dire straits. The party are in tatters. They have changed one leader and now they are thinking about changing another.

What about the vote?

Now they are thinking about how to camouflage all that in a motion of no confidence in the Minister for the Environment.

(Interruptions.)

This same party Leader in the last Coalition Government after foiur and a half years left us on the brink if bankruptcy with a debt of £25 billion. When they took over it was £12 billion. In that time they let the roads deteriorate to the extent that it will take us years to get them back into proper condition. In 1986 — I will quote the figure and Senator Ó Foighil cannot contradict me, or if he does he will be wrong — the Leader of that Government gave £23 million to the regional county road structure. It is in the Book of Estimates. Over a three-year period this Government have given £173 million, three times the amount this year, given by that Government in 1986. Senators try to tell this House what the Minister for the Environment did not do, why we in this House should not support our Minister and why they should come in here to criticise him for reasons that have nothing to do with his performance, as far as I am concerned.

Statements of fact.

In their time in Government they brought in a house improvement grant. Senator Naughten referred to the fact that the house improvement grant is discontinued at present. They provided many grants for people but they forgot to provide any money to pay for that grant. There was no money there. When the Fianna Fáil Government took over in 1987 they were paying for that mistake for three years afterwards, so there is no reason why I would support a motion of no confidence in our Minister. When I look at the previous record I cannot but have confidence in the Minister and in his Minister of State. He is welcome to the House. He is doing a fine job.

The Department of the Environment, under the leadership of Deputy Flynn, have supported community groups right through this country in the last two years yet I heard Senator Naughten criticising the allocation of moneys, that they were given for political purposes and so on. I do not see anything wrong with a Minister supporting a community group to provide a community facility for their old people, their children or adults, for recreation, helping a local GAA club to provide a better facility for young people, a local soccer club or a local golf club. That same lottery money provided by the Minister is increasing, updating and providing recreational amenity facilities the length and breadth of Ireland. The groups who got those grants are very appreciative. Extraordinary good work has been done. For that, I compliment the Minister.

Another matter the Minister has taken in hand and which the last Government spent four years talking about, is local government reform. I listened to many statements made between 1981-86. We were bombarded with all types of pronouncements about local government reform and what would be done about it. What did we see at the end of the day? A big vacuum. Now we will have legislation in this House inside of a month.

We will have it in two weeks time.

We will wait to see it first.

In two weeks we will have legislation on local government reform.

(Interruptions.)

That is not blowing. That is not "it might not be," it is a fact. In two weeks' time we will have a Bill to reform local government with all the pronouncements, all the wishes and all the pious attitudes for the years 1981-86. We did not get any delivery then but we will now. Hopefully, the people who are so critical of the Minister today will come in here in two weeks' time and compliment him on moving local government reform.

The construction industry is very close to the heart of the Minister for the Environment. When he took over in 1987 only 70,000 people were working in the construction industry. It was at a standstill. Nothing was happening in it. There are 100,000 people in it today an increase of 30,000. Is that a reason for a vote of no confidence in the Minister? An industry showing confidence and involving growing employment. Surely that is not a reason for a vote of no confidence? Why was there not a vote of no confidence in their own Minister? They had a lot of trouble behind the scenes. He let the numbers go down to 70,000 in 1986. Those are the facts. Those figures are available.

Senator Ó Foighil mentioned demountable houses and the conditions they are in. With respect, Senator Ó Foighil should read the new policy document on housing because in it is the answer to elimination of such structures and their bad conditions. In Ireland we may have the highest rate in Europe of ownership of private dwellings. I understand that up to 80 per cent of our people own their own homes. Yet in the contributions here tonight one would swear that everyone in Ireland was living on the side of a mountain, like the unfortunate Kurds at present, or that the situation was similar to what it was at the start of the century. We have a fine stock of housing here, with 80 per cent of the people owning their own homes. We have a fine stock of local authority housing and in the document on social housing we have the answer to the elimination of demountable houses.

The Minister no later than one and a half years ago offered tenants the local authority houses they resided in. What could be said? Nothing more or nothing less than "a sale of the century." Over 30,000 public local authority houses were sold to their tenants with a major grant incentive. In my county alone, 500 people availed of the offer. People bought those houses for as little as £4,000.

Is that a reason for having a vote of no confidence in our Minister, who made available, with a large grant, 30,000 houses out of the public stock so that we could keep up the tradition we have of private ownership. He made that number of houses available to the tenants and he gave them local authority loans to buy them. It was a most generous and honourable offer by the Minister, in keeping with the tradition we have of private ownership. It was a very far thinking and excellent scheme.

The National Roads Authority was brought in by the Minister for the Environment to oversee our national roads, to get them up to European standards so that we could compare favourably. That has been an ongoing process. I look at the road link between my province and Leinster, which is due to be opened officially in a month's time and which is already taking traffic. A £36 million development to link Connacht with Leinster opened the other day. Is that a reason to put down a motion of no confidence in the Minister? It now takes six minutes, where it used to take three-quarters of an hour, to get from Connacht to Leinster. A sum of £36 million was spent in the heart of Ireland to provide employment. That money was put into Westmeath County Council and Roscommon County Council to provide that fine facility.

I look at the county roads situation, what I saw four years ago and what I see now. In the last three years £173 million has been spent by the Minister, three times the amount spent in 1986. In my county in 1986 we got £2 million, this year we received £5.2 million. Those are the facts. I appreciate that there may be problems in the Fine Gael Party. They may have leadership problems, they may have problems with the popular vote and they may have great qualms of conscience about what they did with our economy the last time they were given control of it. I do not think that gives them any right to come in here and put down a motion censuring the Minister for the Environment and saying that we should support it. When they go before the people, the people will not want to vote for them.

I assure Members across the House that the people will vote for the Fianna Fáil candidates in the next local elections because they look at the facts and they see what was delivered over the last four years. They look at the confidence in the economy at present and they look at the way the Minister is handling his brief, the way he has put money into the local authority system over the last four years, something which was lacking for five years before that. The people will ask "What about the inflation we had in 1986? What about the interest rates we had in 1986? What about the spiralling debt that has now been blocked?" I do not believe these Fine Gael lads are interested in the good of the country. There is a lot of in-fighting there and they are just trying to cover it up.

(Interruptions.)

I have no intention of supporting this motion. I have no doubt what the outcome of the division in this House will be, the right one of course, confidence in our Minister.

Tá sé suimiúil bheith istigh anseo ag plé ceisteanna mar seo. Níl mórán taithí agam ar chúrsaí pholaitíocht pháirtí mar atá ar siúl anocht agus mar a bhfuil scoilt dhíreach idir an Rialtas agus an Freasúra faoina mhéad muiníne atá ag daoine as an Aire Comhshaoil. I am in a rather peculiar position and I have not entirely made up my mind.

The Senator can support us.

I have done that more often than I got credit for from Fianna Fáil. They do not often deserve it I must say but when they do I support them. I have no problems. There is no sort of invisible barrier on the division lobby that prevents me going Fianna Fáil's way from time to time.

Will the Senator join us?

The possibility of my joining Fianna Fáil is even more remote than the possibility of my joining Fine Gael, I suspect.

Debate adjourned.

When is it proposed to sit again?

Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.

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