The business for today is Item No. 2 to be taken between now and 4 p.m. I suggest that 15 minutes be provided for the spokespersons of each party and ten minutes to each Senator thereafter. From 4 p.m. until 6 p.m. it is proposed that we take item No. 3. There should also be a timeframe on that item, which can be arranged later. There will be a sos between 6 p.m. and 6.30 p.m. It is proposed that we take item No. 44 from 6.30 p.m. until 8 p.m.
Order of Business.
Would the Leader of the House inquire from the Government, who in turn would inquire from the Judiciary, whether there are guidelines in existence that govern the precise circumstances in which it is proper for judges to make statements or speeches which are, in effect, interventions in matters of ongoing political controversy? Many of us find the silence from the Judiciary on this issue unacceptable and the Judiciary owe it to the public to indicate——
Senator, you are making a speech.
——whether such guidelines exist. If they do, what they are, and if they do not, whether it is intended to have such guidelines provided.
I should like to again raise several issues I have spoken about in the past weeks.
The fact that the situation in Northern Ireland continues to decline leads me to ask the Leader to make a commitment in the House today that the first significant discussion on an non-legislative matter in the new session will be on the North of Ireland. Since I first raised this issue, 40 people have been killed in the North, 40 people have been buried — young people and old people.
I should also like the House today to recognise the fact that in London yesterday a 15 year old schoolgirl was atomised, blown to pieces, by people purporting to act in my name, in your name and in our name. The grief of her distraught parents on last night's international news brought shame on Ireland. I feel that the House should at least indicate its complete rejection of that kind of activity and those who purport to act on our behalf. It is a disgrace that the strain and stress, the killing and the loss for that family all result from actions carried out supposedly in our name. I shall not go any further with the issue now, it does need to be discussed. I stress that words are important, debate is important. It is not a matter of asking ourselves what we can add to it; we can make it clear by our words exactly where we stand in relation to such activities.
The other issue I wish to raise has been raised on several occasions in past months and years, that is, the question of a presidential pardon for Nicky Kelly. It would be fair to say that this is not a party issue. People from both sides of the House have equally strong views on the issue. In the next week I intend to circulate a petition to every Member of the House asking the Government to request a presidential pardon for Nicky Kelly. I ask that all Members, in alphabetical order, add their names to that petition to indicate our view on the issue. This is not a party issue; this is an initiative that I, as an Independent Member, should want to take and I urge the Government to respond.
I join in the condemnation of the bombings that occurred in London during the weekend. I express my dismay and disgust at what happened.
I support the call from Senator Manning that guidelines be introduced so that those who are above the political process would know when and where they could enter the political process and, indeed, what is acceptable and what is unacceptable from people who are paid enormous amounts of money to behave in a certain way and to maintain public confidence.
I also ask the Leader when we may expect the publication of the White Paper on the Maastricht Treaty. It is very important that the White Paper be published as a matter of urgency. I again express my concern at the degree of public confusion on matters regarding the referendum on the Maastricht Treaty and the subsequent referenda that appear to be in the pipeline. On that note, I stress my view that it is very important that the wording of all of the referenda be available to the public before the public have to make up their minds on 18 June.
Finally, I should again like to express my concern about the oil pollution that county councils in the west of Ireland have had to clear. I understand that Kerry County Council had to pay about £65,000 from their own funds to clear the mess resulting from oil pollution. A similar problem also exists in County Clare.
I, too, would like to express my horror, shock and condemnation of the appalling tragedy which took place in London. Not very long ago, we in this House, were referring to the bombing in this city in which so many innocent people lost their lives. It is appalling that three innocent people, one a 14 year old girl, died. It is ironic, as that girl's mother said, that the young girl had said very nice things about this country. In relation to the situation in Northern Ireland, she had hoped there would be a peaceful solution, she has now been blown to pieces.
With one's condemnation, one joins the Government side in welcoming the new Northern Ireland Secretary; I hope that together we may perhaps approach this very difficult and intractable problem.
I wish to be associated with the remarks made by previous Senators in relation to the appalling tragedy and bombing which took place in London. I believe all sides of the House should be seen, as I am satisfied we are, to be totally opposed and to register our abhorrence at every opportunity in relation to these unfortunate events.
I support the call by Senator Manning and Senator Upton in relation to guidelines for the Judiciary regarding matters on which they can speak publicly. In addition, I ask the Leader to provide time in this House to discuss the unfortunate dismissal of Mr. Justice O'Hanlon. It is a very serious issue and regarded by some people as indicating an attempt by the Government to intimidate the entire Judiciary.
Senators
Rubbish.
Because of the seriousness of the matter I believe it is of concern to this House and I am, therefore, asking the Leader to provide time to discuss the matter.
I wish to convey my abhorrence of the atrocities related to the Northern Ireland issue. I would like to again raise the issue of the need to have all wordings before us before we vote on the Maastricht Treaty because of the utter confusion in the minds of women, particularly in this country, in relation to the travel and freedom of information. It is essential that we know what we are doing before 18 June. Secondly, I would like the report — The Gender Equality on Education — which was commissioned by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights and researched by Jim Gleeson, to put before the Seanad for discussion in the next session. We are obviously delayed because of the lack of publication of a Green or White Paper and this would be an excellent opportunity to debate educational issues.
I, too, add my voice to the expressions of horror and revulsion at the appalling atrocity that occurred in London. Once again we have to ask for a debate on Northern Ireland but at this time in particular, we should wish the new Northern Ireland Secretary well. We should also look forward to the resumption of talks, I hope at the end of this month. The awful horrors we have seen have underlined the necessity to again get dialogue going.
I, too, join my colleagues in expressing the deepest sense of outrage and abhorrence at the bombings in London over the weekend. Time and again, in this House we have expressed a very clear view on the subject but it is important to continue to do so lest anybody thinks there is a doublethink as far as this House is concerned.
I would like to take the opportunity to extend our congratulations to all the Members elected in Northern Ireland. I wish the new Secretary of State well in his task and express the hope that the talks will start at the earliest possible opportunity. Will the House be prepared to invite the people engaged in the talks to participate under the new regulations here in a debate on Northern Ireland? We should demonstrate that, as democrats, we want to work together and leave no shadow of doubt in the minds of the British people that we are democrats, that we are prepared to talk and work together for the common good and to contribute towards peace and reconciliation on this island.
I too would like to be associated with the condemnation of the atrocities in London over the past week. No words could adequately condemn those acts. Allied to that is the question we discussed before, of the need for this House — and the other House — to be constantly alert to discussing matters pertinent to Northern Ireland. We must make certain that we contribute, in whatever way we can, to alleviating and lessening the severity of the problems in the North.
Will the Leader state the position with regard to the forthcoming referenda? Prior to the referendum on 18 June on the Maastricht Treaty the broad parameters of the other referendum arising out of the consequences of the Supreme Court decision should be available because it is extremely important, in the interests of the Maastricht Treaty referendum being successful, that people would have an idea of the broad parameters of the second referendum. I fully support — as right thinking people support — the referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. It is so serious——
Has the Senator a question for the Leader?
In the light of the importance of the Maastricht Treaty the referendum should be conducted in a way and against a background which ensures that people have no fears or doubts in relation to the referendum arising out of the consequences of the Supreme Court decision or indeed, the abortion issue.
The Senator is making a speech.
No, I will not make a speech. Do we fully realise the enormity of this matter and the gravity if the referendum is not passed on 18 June? It would sound the death knell for our economy. Finally, with regard to the position vis-a-vis the Irish farmer, the situation from an income point of view in 1992——
You are making a speech. Will you ask the Leader a question please, on the Order of Business.
Could we again have a full debate on the seriousness of the position of Irish agriculture? It is my considered opinion, and that of many people that the income of Irish farmers in 1992 will be very dismal indeed.
I should like to address myself briefly to the remarks made earlier about the dismissal of Mr. Justice O'Hanlon. No one would gloat in regard to that matter, I am sure he is a fine, honourable man in many ways but he crossed a number of very important boundaries, particularly the boundary of the separation of powers. The Government were left with no alternative.
As far as I am concerned it has nothing to do with his membership of any organisation of which he chooses to be a member. The Government had absolutely no alternative and I look forward to hearing somebody put the official position of Fine Gael on the record of this House, since the matter has been opened. I applaud what the Government did but I do not gloat. They had no alternative. It is a sad situation when a distinguished man loses a position in public life. While I am not glad, I am at ease in my mind that this has happened. What would have happened if he had not been dismissed? If a case like that of the 14 year old girl had come before him what would have happened?
This is not relevant to the Order of Business, and you know that, Senator.
I am grateful for your indulgence. The two other matters I wish to raise are directed to the Leader of the House. First, item No. 1 is a welcome and very complex set of regulations for the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Employment. I would like to ask, in the light of the fact that this has been produced with commendable speed, when we will have a similar instrument to create an Oireachtas joint committee on foreign affairs. An indication was given that we would have it, but there are many matters such as East Timor, which Senator B. Ryan and I, placed on the Order Paper, it is unlikely we would get a debate on this but in the foreign affairs committee we could have some impact on Irish foreign policy.
Second, I would like to join with other Senators in calling yet again for a debate on Northern Ireland. I share their sentiment. It was a shaming experience to hear a six year old girl asking her father why she had been blinded for Ireland. Is it not possible that we can do something to counter a situation in which continually these appalling events are claimed from Dublin? Can the Government not say officially that this does not come from Dublin because these claims confuse people? I look forward to that debate. May I say in a nasty minded, mean spirited way, for which I do not apologise, I am very glad Gerry Adams was not elected in Belfast.
It has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
I join with other Members in condemning the slaughter of innocent people in the UK. About ten million people of Irish descent live in the UK. I think it was foolhardy to plant a bomb to cause destruction and death in the UK. I call again on the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on the problems facing people in the North. Day after day Members express their concern about what is happening in the North — and without being too critical of those expressions of concern — some of those Senators have not been in the North, and have only a very superficial knowledge of what is happening there.
You are making a speech.
I am not making a speech.
If the Chair says you are, you are.
I have noticed that the first to speak is given more latitude than the later contributors. I join with other Members in appealing for a debate that will allow everybody to contribute because it is not right to exclude Members from a debate on an issue as important as the problems in the North.
I ask the Leader to listen to the pleas for a debate on regional development in the West. The Leader will be aware that on a number of occasions I raised this issue of great concern as those who attended the packed meetings convened by the bishops can testify. The Seanad would show its concern by agreeing to a debate on that issue.
I support Senator Norris' view on a foreign affairs committee. I am one of those who have been pleading for the establishment of this committee over the past three years. We have heard a great deal about it, and it would be desirable if the Leader could advise on the present status.
Finally, by way of a point of order, did Senator McGowan say it was appalling that bombs were planted in the city of London because about ten million people of Irish extraction live there? It is equally appalling if it is going to injure people of English, Welsh or Scottish extraction.
May I ask the Leader to impress on the Government the urgency of publishing a White Paper on Maastricht and of then having a debate in this House on that topic? I am deeply unhappy and concerned at the Government's approach to this matter. I have no doubt that the right to travel and to information should be clarified in advance of this referendum. Nevertheless as the position has been outlined it is absolutely essential that clarity emerges from both Houses to ensure the public is fully informed. There should be no attempt to "roll back" the recent Supreme Court judgment. That would be totally unacceptable and I believe it would be unacceptable to the majority of the Irish people. We have to go forward from this judgment. Because of the Government's approach, we urgently need a debate on the matter, a White Paper on the Maastricht Treaty should be published immediately. That issue must be totally disentangled from the other matters that have unfortunately become directly and centrally involved in it. There is a heavy responsibility on the political process to ensure the Maastricht Treaty is passed in its own right with a resounding, yes vote, and that——
You are making a speech now, Senator.
In conclusion, a Chathaoirligh, no attempt should be made to roll back to the pre-1983 position. The right to travel, to information and to non-directive counselling should be established and the Government should so indicate in the near future.
I join with those requesting a debate on Northern Ireland. May I express my revulsion at what has happened in the UK and in Northern Ireland? In doing so, I congratulate the SDLP on their excellent election results. Now more than ever they are the only spokesman for Nationalists.
May I ask the Leader of the House to fix a date for a debate on aviation policy in the light of the massive turnout in Limerick last Saturday, when the people in the mid-west and the West expressed their deep concern about the status of Shannon Airport? Will the Leader nominate a date on resumption of the House to discuss this vital issue on which over 30,000 people made such an eloquent statement on the streets of Limerick last Saturday?
May I ask the Leader, as he was asked on several occasions, to make it a priority that the Minister for Health, Deputy John O'Connell come to the House after the Easter recess with a view to discussing the future role of acute general hospitals? I believe Comhairle na n-Óspideal, another sacrosanct body, is about to make a vicious attack on the county hospitals. I hope he will clearly affirm that the county hospitals still have a role to play in rural Ireland and that they will continue as active, virile and viable units.
When a hen lays eggs out of the nest on the first occasion you say it is regrettable, when it happens on a second occasion you certainly say it is foolhardy. Therefore, I concur with the other Senators who say the Government had no option but to ask the Chairman of the Law Reform Commission to resign. I am quite surprised at Fine Gael's prevarication on this issue, with their Leader asking questions and Senator Howard very much opposing it. I wish they would make up their minds once and for all on this issue.
The joy at the election of Dr. Joe Hendron was shared by all of us until it was tempered by our sorrow at the atrocities committed in London. We can only hope that Sir Patrick Mayhew will ensure that talks commence between the various parties in the North and that on this occasion something worthwhile and meaningful will occur to bring about peace.
On a number of occasions the Leader of the House has been asked to let us have a debate on air transport. Being from the Cork area I am well aware of the spin-off from the stop-over at Shannon. We are very supportive of Shannon. I would like to raise another issue, however, and that the unfair competition which exists between Shannon and the third international airport — Cork.
Here comes a split.
In 1989, £4.8 million——
We are not having a speech, Senator O'Keeffe. Would you please direct your query to the Leader of the House?
It is a commercial announcement.
I was about to do that but I thought there was general indulgence today. The point is that we need to have a debate on competition between our international airports, particularly because Shannon has a budget of £4.8 million to promote that airport. We in Cork have been building a trade with Brittany in France but——
We are not having a debate on the merits of the airports of this country——
We now find that undercutting is taking place between Shannon Airport and Cork Airport to the detriment of Cork Airport. I am asking the Leader of the House if he would allow a debate on this issue so that we could come back to a level playing pitch on it.
You would not say that if Senator Honan was here.
May I, through you a Chathaoirligh, impress on the Leader of the House the absolute gravity and urgency of the matter raised today by Senator Staunton. There is unquestionably a haemorrhage of people, of human resources, from the west of Ireland. The depopulation of that whole region and of the north-west is of chronic proportions. People are being replaced by trees.
I did not see the Senator in Limerick on Saturday last.
I would urge the Leader of the House to take this matter on board and facilitate a debate on it. Immediate action will be necessary to save that entire region.
I want to ask one question. I would like to point out that the highest unemployment rate in the country is in the south-east.
Kilkenny.
It is not exactly in Kilkenny but statistically it is in the south-east. We hear a great deal about unemployment.
Senator Lanigan, have you a query for the Leader of the House?
I want to ask the Leader when can we have a debate on fisheries policy? There is a major problem in inland fisheries in Ireland especially in the salmon area. Bord Fáilte brochures are promoting abroad in a major way hunting, shooting and outdoor pursuits. No salmon is being caught inland at present. Certain hoteliers feel that they are selling a non-product. Something has to be done. There is no doubt but that illegal fishing is one of the major reasons salmon are not getting into the rivers. If they do not get into the rivers they cannot spawn. This is a major problem that has to be addressed and I would ask the Leader of the House to arrange for debate on it.
On many occasions in this House we have condemned the atrocities of murderers and thugs and the other people involved in mass murder whether they be the IRA, the UVF, UFF or whatever. We should also condemn the attitude that has been taken by a group who do not represent anybody — the INLA — who last week threatened the life of a soccer player, David O'Leary, who has given great pleasure to many people the world over. I would hate to think the INLA would get away with issuing that threat to a sportsman of world renown. We should condemn the threat to his life just as much as we condemn the deaths of people. I would like the House to send to the INLA the message that they do not represent anybody, that they are only thugs and murderers; I am not afraid to say that in any forum.
I would like to ask the Leader when we can expect a debate on the problems of the west. I accept there are other problem areas, but it is not simply a problem of unemployment in the west; it is a problem literally of the people moving out and services becoming uneconomic as a result. It is important that we have a debate on the issue.
I join in the condemnation of violence. Every now and then a particular atrocity takes place that shakes all of us. If we are to come to grips with this problem, condemnation is not enough. I hope we can see our way to having a debate on this issue because it has gone on now for over 20 years and radical solutions are needed.
How soon will the reforms be introduced so that we will not have this prolonged Order of Business every day?
I join with other speakers in expressing my total abhorrence at the depths of depravity to which the IRA have sunk. I refer to the weekend bombing in London and I condemn also the INLA, one of whom yesterday walked up to an off duty officer in Britain and shot him in cold blood at point blank range. He died this morning. Those types of atrocities must be condemned as they bring shame and degradation on the whole country. As citizens we are absolutely devastated that this is going on purportedly in the name of Irish people. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange for us to have a debate on Northern Ireland.
I would also like to to express the hope that the negotiations on the bank dispute which are at a very critical stage reach a successful conclusion so that this unfortunate dispute ends at the earliest possible opportunity. We wish both sides in the dispute every success in reaching a solution.
Would the Leader of the House request the Minister for Industry and Commerce to come here and take part in a debate on the river Shannon and its development in the light of the fact that Structural Funds are being made available for one part of the Shannon but not for the other parts? For instance, there is no mention of such funding for the area where I live and where there are thousands of acres of land lying idle, awaiting some type of development. In case anyone should think that unemployment has not hit my region I join with other speakers in requesting a debate on unemployment. I can assure the House that of every four people in north Kerry today, one is going to school, one is drawing old age pension, one is drawing the dole and the other is working. Of course, I, too, would welcome a debate on unemployment.
Which one of the four is the Senator?
For the information of the Senator, I am the one who is working.
We are about to debate the question of reforms in the House. Unless there is goodwill on the part of all its Members what we achieve in the next hour in passing the relevant motion will be of no avail. Unless the Order of Business relates to legislation we will get nowhere. When we pass the motion today I hope we take on board the whole idea behind reform. If the Order of Business were to continue until 3.30 p.m. each day, as has been the practice, it would not be in the interests of the House.
Senator Manning raised the issue of guidelines to the Judiciary. I agree that there is a need for such guidelines. I will communicate with the relevant Minister in the Government in that regard.
Senator O'Toole and a number of other Members raised the issue of Northern Ireland. I would like to extend my welcome to the new Secretary of State, Sir Patrick Mayhew and to wish him well in his new post. It is in all the interests of this island that he would do well. I share the revulsion of everybody else in the House at the weekend bombings in London. I will convey today to the Minister for Foreign Affairs the absolute desire of this House to have a debate on Northern Ireland. I would like to make one comment. If I thought a debate was going to solve the problem in Northern Ireland we would have one every day of the week. It is not as simple as that.
Having said that, I will convey the desire of this House, as expressed on many occasions, for an opportunity to express our feelings on the issue of the North.
Senator O'Toole also mentioned the Nicky Kelly file. Over the weekend the Taoiseach asked that the report be sought as quickly as possible from the Attorney General so that a Government decision can be made on the matter. I hope that will be the case.
Several Senators, including Senators Upton and Cullen, mentioned the White Paper. It is my understanding that this will be available within the next two weeks and I hope it will be one of the first items the House will debate after the Easter recess.
An item that has been raised several times — I am sure it is worthy of debate on a Thursday under the Seanad reform — is oil pollution. Unfortunately, several maritime councils have had to face this problem in recent months. I hope we will be able to formulate a wording which could then be debated.
Senator Norris mentioned item No. 1 which deals with the Joint Committee on Employment. I hope we will pass the order tomorrow and that the committee will be appointed during the recess. I hope also that a foreign affairs committee will be formed between now and the summer recess.
Senators Staunton, O'Reilly, Ó Cuív and others asked if there was any possibility of a debate on regional policy. I would have thought that the debate on the Culliton report would provide everyone with an opportunity to express their views on industrial policy for the country as a whole rather than for any particular region. As I mentioned, that debate can continue for as long as Members wish. I genuinely believe that matter should be discussed during that debate and I hope the Senators avail of that opportunity.
I gave a commitment to have a general debate on aviation and transport. I hope we will be able to have this debate after the Easter recess. I hope also that this debate will not centre on any single sector or geographic region but on the general issue of air transport, which is of importance to this country.
Order of Business agreed to.