Before I announce the Order of Business, as this is the last day of this session, I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, on behalf of the House for the session that we have just had, as well as the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the Acting Chairpersons who have been of help to the House. I would like to thank also all the staff, the press, radio and television and to all the acting reporters that have looked after us here.
Order of Business.
And the Senators who were here.
I was just about to get to the Members themselves and to wish everybody a very well earned rest. I hope Members have their toes on whatever beach this time next week and enjoy the break.
Perhaps Opposition Members at times had difficulty with the way things were done, but it was always in the interests of the House that we made every effort to ensure that the standing of the Seanad was improved. I hope the session has been a worthy one and I look forward to coming back to another term.
Today's business shall be Nos. 1 and 2. Business shall be interrupted with a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. Notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the debate on all Stages of item No. 1, if not earlier concluded, will be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m. by the putting of one question from the Chair, and the debate on all Stages of item No. 2, if not earlier concluded, will be brought to a conclusion at 4 p.m. by the putting of one question from the Chair.
I join Senator Wright in thanking the various people who have helped the House to function during the past session. In particular, I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, and the officials of the House, who are always courteous and helpful. I thank the press, especially our own press corps, who give us a very good service, who take the House seriously and who attempt to convey to the wider public the substance of what is done in the House. Our regular press corps, who are in the gallery today, deserve our thanks. If we do not always get the coverage we would like, the fault does not lie with the press gallery but rather, perhaps, at the subeditors' table. I also thank all colleagues in the House for the session just passed.
I wish to make a very serious suggestion to the House on this our last day of the session. It was very clear during the debate on the Maastricht Treaty that there is widespread dissatisfaction with the way in which European matters are discussed in both Houses of the Oireachtas. I am aware of the proposal for a wider European committee, but it is my contention that this House distinctively should be in a position to carve out for itself a significant role on European legislation and European matters. I propose to the Leader of the House that he set up a small group, aside from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, perhaps comprising one person from each party, to consider on an all-party basis the way in which that could be done. I hope in the next session we may be able to put in place some method whereby the House could play that distinctive role. Yesterday Senator McDonald, in reference to today's item No. 5, made the point that there is a range of reports on European activities that have not been and will not be debated. I make that suggestion in a very constructive way and I ask the Leader of the House and other parties to join Fine Gael in examining the proposal. We all have plenty of ideas, it is a matter of taking action.
In relation to today's business, there should be no difficulty in finishing the first item by 1 p.m. and, judging from the number of speakers my party have available, there should also be no difficulty in concluding the second item by 4 p.m.
Is the fact that we have had such an incredibly overloaded agenda during the dying weeks of the session crass inefficiency or is it a blatant ruse?
The Senator is playing to the gallery again.
Is it a blatant device aimed at ensuring that Ministers are obliged to spend the minimum amount of time in this House going through the charade that this House has become?
(Interruptions.)
Members will go on reading such statements in the newspapers and they will continue to hear them from me until something is done about this issue.
Senator Hederman, you are using very emotive language, and I urge you to address a question to the Leader of the House.
I shall endeavour to be more moderate in my language. Does the Leader of the House seriously believe that this House can discharge the obligations, responsibilities and rights that it has under the Constitution to go through legislation? In my view, Members are being denied that constitutional right.
Senator, you are making a speech.
Does the Leader of the House believe that Members are collectively elected to do a job? I believe that we have collectively lost sight of that. I appeal seriously to all sides of the House because the remedy is in our hands, it is not in the hands of Cabinet, the Minister or anyone else.
This is a speech.
I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for the courteous and fair way in which you have conducted the business of the House during this session. I thank the staff of the House for their efficiency and for the kindness and courtesy they have shown us during this session. I also thank the various other people who have provided us with assistance and help. I thank the press for the way in which they have covered the proceedings of the House and I compliment them on their endurance, for the way in which they have sat through debates that I suppose at times must have fallen somewhere between being fairly boring and very boring.
I agree with Senator Manning's comments on the importance of conveying European issues to the wider public. That is an enormous challenge as these issues are complex, difficult and often not suitable for short discussion. That matter should be taken up in the autumn. Senator Hederman has a certain case in relation to the way in which we manage our business as we approach the end of a session. I ask the Leader to consider our affairs in that respect and try to find a better way of doing things.
I ask the Leader of the House to convey to the Minister for Justice the outrage of this House at the appalling decision of a justice yesterday to release a person who pleaded——
That matter is not appropriate now.
I think this is important and I hope you will allow me a small amount of latitude here.
As the Senator knows, judges are totally independent.
We have a responsibility in this House to convey our abhorrence of a system which allowed a person who admitted that he was guilty of rape to be released.
What has this got to do with the Order of Business?
The judges are independent. Under the Constitution that is their position.
In fairness to the general public, we have a duty to highlight those issues. That was an appalling decision and we have responsibility to highlight it.
You are out of order, Senator McKenna.
I hope that you will give me the benefit of the few moments you gave to Senator McKenna, a Chathaoirligh, because I had indicated that I wished to speak previously and I have something to say on the same issue. I wish to register my protest at the fact that——
That is out of order. I ruled that Senator McKenna was out of order in that regard. The decisions of judges are independent of this House, and that is the way that the position remains.
I still feel that it has to be stated by Oireachtas Members that——
The Senator can make her statements somewhere else but not during the Order of Business.
We will not have an opportunity in the House to do so after today.
I join other speakers in expressing thanks to all those who have been mentioned. I shall not go through all those who have to be thanked again, other than to thank you, a Chathaoirligh, and the Leas-Chathaoirleach, for your courtesy and the way in which you have handled the affairs of the House in the past session, even to the point of taking matters on the Adjournment that you might otherwise have ruled out of order, as I think you did last week and for which I thank you. I also thank the officers of the House, the press and other Members.
I wish to say to Senator Hederman through you, Sir, that while my party's views on the realms of this House are well known, while it exists we will give it the respect that it deserves and that you, Sir, deserve. It is up to the House, as it always has been, to regulate its own affairs and I am sure that that will continue.
I support Senator Manning in his hopes for the next session. Reform of the Seanad has been debated in the House, the matter has been referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and certain improvements have been made. There was a universal call that there should be access for MEPs, senior officials from the Commission, and so on, to come to address the House. That would be a welcome development. It is worth noting that the Maastricht Treaty contains provisions that relate to inter-parliamentary co-operation and the need to have national parliaments more closely involved in the workings of the Community and those of the European Parliament. In that context, it would be very appropriate for us to proceed along those lines.
I strongly support Senator Manning's request for a discussion on Europe immediately after the Seanad resumes. Most Senators are elected by local authorities and local authorities are now very confused in so far as there is a large number of peripheral organisations in Europe. With your permission I will name them. They are the CPMR, the community of Peripheral Maritime Regions and the AER, which is——
I understand the Senator is trying to come to a question.
I am endeavouring to make a point, not a speech and, with your help a Chathaoirligh, I will succeed. Many members of local authorities are anxious to do the right thing and be associated with the right organisation. In that respect this House can give them guidance by having a discussion on the matter. I strongly urge Senators to accede to the request.
I should like to be associated with the thanks expressed to the Cathaoirleach, the Leas-Chathaoirleach, the Leader of the House, the media and, particularly the staff who have had to cope with the many amendments I tabled. I re-echo Senator Hederman's comment that we do need to conduct our business, particularly towards the end of a session, in a more efficient manner. We should ensure that our business dove-tails to a greater extent with the activities of the other House and that a greater volume of legislation is initiated in this House. Both Houses should be able to go into recess at the same time without there remaining a large number of Bills to be dealt with by this House after the other has risen. That is something we should examine in the autumn.
The suggestions that we invite members of the European Parliament, mentioned by Senator Dardis, and Ministers to deal with specific issues, as suggested by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in relation to the talks on Northern Ireland, appear to be legitimate.
I am beginning to feel somewhat like Senator Ó Foighil. I raised a question in the House on the last two days on the Order of Business and, perhaps, the Leader of the House cannot answer it because of some Standing Order. Since we have sent good wishes to Kings, Queens and Donegal goalkeepers, surely we can send a message of goodwill to His Holiness, the Pope. If the Leader of the House cannot do so perhaps you, a Chathaoirligh, can do so on behalf of the House. I would like the guidance of the Chair on this.
That will certainly be done.
Could you, a Chathaoirligh, do this on our behalf considering the all-party agreement there was on the matter ranging from Senators Norris, Brendan Ryan, Costello and so many others?
Yes, it would be unanimous.
I have no objection and I will be glad to do so.
I should like to ask the Leader to consider asking the party Whips to meet, and group the 45 or 46 non-Government motions on the Order Paper, and arrange for a few days discussion to clear the Order Paper early in September. A number of very important motions have been tabled by Senators from all sides and it would be useful to have a discusion on them.
I should like to re-echo the sentiments expressed by the Leader of our party in the Seanad, Senator Manning, on the scandal of our not having discussed the half-yearly statutory Reports on Developments in the European Communities over the past five years. It is a shame.
I should like to be associated with the compliments and gratitude extended to the Cathaoirleach, the Leas-Chathaoirlech, the staff and the press.
Some months ago I called on the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on the health services with particular refernce to the Southern Health Board and their allocation of funding. While they did receive a substantial increase in allocation this year they are now confronted by a crisis in Tralee General Hospital. I would ask the Leader of the House to ensure there is a full debate on the health services, with particular reference to the various health boards and their funding, when we resume next session.
I should like to refer to reports which appeared in this morning's papers with regard to Senators' salaries arising out of a statement made by an Independent Senator here last evening. Having served in both Houses I consider Senators are under-paid. I should like to make that clear.
I do not know whether the matter has been resolved but I asked the Leader of the House why it has taken three days to accept a message of good wishes to His Holiness, the Pope, for his recovery. I did not support the Leader's colleague on this before because I understood there was general acceptance that the message should be sent.
There was full acceptance.
It seems extraordinary that, when less Christian countries than ours have been sending messages to His Holiness following his serious operation yesterday from which it would appear he is recovering, thank God, that it was completely ignored by the Leader of the House yesterday when responding. I understood all Members were anxious that that message should be conveyed yesterday. I hope it will be sent today.
Before calling on the Leader of the House to reply I should like to make one or two observations. I too would like to thank all Senators for the great co-operation I have received over the past six to eight months. I should also like to thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach, and the temporary Chairmen, for their help. They worked very well throughout the year.
In particular, on behalf of Members I want to congratulate Josie Briody, one of our staff, who is leaving after 11 years service in the Seanad office. She has been extremely helpful and courteous to Senators at all times. I know I speak on behalf of all Senators when I say that I regret she is leaving us. Happily, we are losing her through promotion within the system. When I congratulate her, I know I do so on behalf of all Senators. I wish her well in her new role and thank her for the help she gave us during her 11 years in the Seanad office.
With regard to Senator Lydon's proposal of yesterday and the day before — I took it on board when I returned to my office yesterday.
With regard to Senator Foley's request for a debate on the health services when we resume in the autumn, I should tell him we will allow time for debate of topical matters. With regard to Senator McDonald's request, in the past few days I said that under topical headings we would debate some of the issues that have been raised regularly.
Senator's Manning's proposal is worthy of consideration. As he rightly said, this House is an ideal forum for the type of debates he would like to see. It was recognised by the Taoiseach after the holding of the Maastricht referendum that there is need for a greater pool of information to the public on issues relating to EC legislation and policy. It is hoped that either among the Whips, or at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, we will be able to give that consideration. As the Cathaoirleach knows, it is our intention to meet during the summer recess to review reforms of the House.
Finally I should say that if Members do not have respect for the House it is difficult for the public to have respect for us. I hope there have been some misquotations in some of the reports and comments I read in today's papers. The fact that we have initiated some reforms, that each grouping within the House——
Petty reforms.
Senator Hederman had ample time to make her point. The Leader of the House must be allowed reply without interruption.
I have endeavoured over the time I have been Leader of the House not to respond in any personal fashion or in my personal capacity, but I have difficulty having listened to some of the comments this morning, particularly by a Senator who, as a Member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, was a participant on the committee dealing with reform of the House. That committee intend meeting throughout the summer to ensure the conduct of business in this House is changed for the better. Such comments should be made at committee meetings rather than running to the Press for cheap publicity such as we witnessed.
If we want to follow that line of attack — as I perceived it yesterday and today — we should examine the record of each Member of the House, their attendance record and so on.
What is the point of being here if nothing can change? What is the point of being here for every vote?
The Leader is replying.
A reporter might find it worth while to look into the attendance of certain Members.
They can look into it and see exactly what my attendance has been. I will not bother coming here until there is meaningful debate.
A Senator
Resign your seat.
I will not resign, I will stay here until something is done about the reforms. It will not be easy to get rid of me. I will not give up membership of the club.
You are out of order, Senator Hederman, the Leader is replying.
All Members have been supportive of reforms to improve the House. Discussions are ongoing and we intend to ensure that the Seanad is improved to make it relevant to legislation. In the last session we sat for more days and hours than in any other session from Easter to summer. I have difficulty at times listening to or reading the comments of certain Members. I hope that by the autumn we will have improved the running of this House.
Order of Business agreed to.