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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Dec 1994

Vol. 141 No. 12

Order of Business.

We now have a new Leader, a man of great wisdom who is the obvious man for the job.

Thank you for that recommendation and I hope it will be listened to in the appropriate place. I wish to join in the welcome to our new colleagues Senator Haughey and Senator Mulcahy. I am glad the Taoiseach had their prior consent in making the appointments. Their stay will be for the life of the Parliament and I hope it will go its full term. I know they will enjoy the working of this House and I hope they will make a full contribution.

I take this opportunity to wish a happy Christmas to all Senators and to all members of the staff who have served us with such fairness. I thank the ushers, the reporting staff and the journalists who have been covering the House more fully in recent times than was the case in the past — all of them contribute to the smooth running of the House. At this Christmas season I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for your fairness and your consideration for all Members and the exemplary way in which you have conducted your office. I wish you a happy Christmas.

This is an unusual day, a historic day. It is the first occasion in 70 years that we have had a change of Government mid-term. This has a number of consequences — apart from some of us having difficulty finding our seats when we came in here today — but the major one being that this will be the first minority Government in the Seanad since the foundation of the State. I except that will focus extra attention on the House. It will certainly provide opportunities to the Opposition parties but I have every confidence that the spirit of co-operation, which was so exemplified by Senator Wright, will be continued. Senator Wright began a process of reform which we will want to continue and intensify during the remainder of this session.

Being a minority in Government gives the Seanad a precarious existence but it also provides us with an opportunity to push through reforms and provide the sort of amenities which we believe the Seanad should have. This is a great opportunity for the Seanad which I know my colleagues on the far side of the House, especially in the back row, will grasp.

The Order of Business is Items 1 and 2 taken without debate, by agreement. I know that Item 1, Winter Time Order, 1994, is of special interest to Senator Quinn and I hope the Whips will be able to discuss with him the possibility of having a debate on an allied motion in the new session. All Stages of Items 3 and 4 are to be taken, by agreement, with the contribution of spokespersons on the Second Stage of Item 4 not to exceed 20 minutes and all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes. As outlined in Item 2, I will be providing time at an early stage in the next session to allow all Members an opportunity to contribute to the Appropriation Bill debate. The Appropriation Bill has been dealt with in this manner on many previous occasions. The Adjournment matter will be taken at the conclusion of business.

May I get the formalities of the Order of Business out of the way? I take it that the Appropriation Bill will be back to us at some stage. Following a heated debate of our Seanad group we have decided not to oppose the Order of Business today. It was an honour to be the Leader of the House. I wish to thank my Chief Whip, Senator Mullooly and Senator Tom Fitzgerald for the superb job they have done in ensuring the smooth running of the House over the past number of years.

Senators

Hear, hear.

May I also thank my own group for their support in ensuring we had an extremely disciplined front bench on the Government side. Senator Manning mentioned reforms that have taken place in the House and I was obviously very pleased to be part of that process but they could not have taken place without the total commitment of the House. I thank Senator Manning and Senator Cosgrave for their co-operation and hope they will be back here in the new year in their rightful positions as Leader and Government Chief Whip. I thank Senator O'Sullivan and Senator Manger who ensured we had an effective, efficient and progressive Seanad and I was pleased to be part of that organisation.

I welcome my two new colleagues, Senator Haughey and Senator Mulcahy, and wish them a long two and a half years' service in this House.

Before I offer my festive good wishes, I wish to say that, as Leader of the main Opposition party it will certainly be our intention to read the Programme for Government. We will come back in the New Year as a disciplined, well organised, cohesive, experienced group who will be a constructive and dignified Opposition ensuring that the progress made by the House during the last number of years will continue.

Did the Senator read the last programme?

The Senator without interruption.

We look forward to the New Year. On behalf of Fianna Fáil I wish a very happy Christmas to the Seanad Staff and I thank them. To the main Opposition parties, the Cathaoirleach and all Members on this side of the House, I wish a very happy Christmas and New Year.

I welcome our two new colleagues to the Seanad. I am sorry Senator Haughey decided to take the shilling and move forward when there was plenty of space back here. Had the Senator come back here he would have been one of six rather than one of five. We wish Senator Haughey and Senator Mulcahy well and hope they will contribute to and help develop the work of the Seanad.

There has been a change of Government. The co-operation, availability, support and openness displayed by Senator Wright and Senator Mullooly, with whom I worked closely on a weekly basis, was much appreciated. I am sure Senator Manning would agree that their co-operation has set the example of how we deal with each other.

There are two sides in the House but we call ourselves Independents not Opposition. For technical and procedural reasons we will act as a group to ensure representation on committees, when discussing items on the Order of Business and the allocation of time. As regards voting arrangements, we are, as always, independent of each other.

We wish Senator Manning and Senator Cosgrave well in their new roles. We hope to be seen as co-operative, flexible and responsible in our approach to the work of the House. We will not go to the Government side with a shopping list but from time to time issues will arise and demands will be made. Hopefully the spirit of co-operation that will prevail will allow for openness.

I welcome the fact that this is a minority Seanad. It means Members must address issues, act responsibly and put forward proposals based on their beliefs. It has been suggested that Members might act in a mischievous way. There are five Independents and we are committed to making the Seanad work effectively and responsibly.

In thanking the previous Administration, I want to end on a sour note.

It is Christmas time.

We have had positive relations with the Fianna Fáil Party. We worked, argued and heckled, which is part of the political process. The drama played out here last week when Senator Henry was speaking was unacceptable and will not be tolerated. I will take whatever steps are necessary, either through the party leaders or the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, to state that such behaviour is unacceptable. I am speaking about a very small number of people and I do not want all on the Fianna Fáil benches to be tarred with the same brush.

A Senator

Name them.

I will not name them but it was unacceptable behaviour.

In relation to today's Order of Business, the Leader of the House will appreciate more than most our anxiety to get a comprehensive list of the legislation he intends to bring before the House. I will continue to raise this question on every occasion we meet. The honeymoon ends today.

Like Senator O'Toole, I am one of a minority of Senators who will remain in the same seat under the new Administration. I look forward to working with Senator Manning, his Fine Gael colleagues and Senator Sherlock. I thank Senator Wright. Senator Mullooly and all the Fianna Fáil Senators with whom we worked during the past two years. Senator Wright ran the Seanad in an impeccable manner and I wish to record my appreciation of his excellent work as Leader of the House. I very much enjoyed working with him.

I welcome Senator Haughey and Senator Mulcahy who, given their illustrious names, can look forward to giving good service in the Seanad. I look forward to working with my new colleagues on the Government benches and all Members of the Seanad. The Seanad has been very constructive and I have no doubt it will continue to be so. Senator O'Toole said that the Independent Senators will continue to be constructive. They have always been very enthusiastic and positive in their contributions. I look forward to the challenges facing us in the knowledge that we will get very good results. I also look forward to dealing with a comprehensive programme of legislation. Under the previous Administration we dealt with a substantial amount of legislation and I look forward to continuing this work with my new colleagues.

I wish the Members and staff of the House a very happy Christmas.

I am allowing some latitude as this is the last sitting day before the Christmas recess. However, the Minister is waiting to take the Bill and I ask Senators to be as brief as possible.

Given where he is sitting, I am sure the Cathaoirleach has detected a slight shift to the left in the centre isle. I do not know if this is indicative of the complexion of the Government.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the way in which he has conducted the business of the Seanad. We appreciate his impartiality in the way he has treated us. We wish him, the staff, the ushers and the members of the press a very happy Christmas.

I welcome Senator Mulcahy and Senator Haughey and look forward to working closely with them. I was very tempted to call a vote on the Order of Business merely to see what the outcome would be.

It is too early.

However, in keeping with the seasonal spirit and in deference to the Cathaoirleach I will resist the temptation. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to test the strength of the minority on the other side of the House.

In congratulating the new Leader of the House I am concerned about paragraph (ii) of Item 2 on today's Order Paper which states that there shall be no debate on committee, Report and Fifth Stages except by special permission of the Chair to allow a question of a specific nature. I realise the need for doing this during this week but I caution him to be very careful not to adopt a similar tactic in the future. Having regard to the points he made when he was on this side of the House, I know he will not adopt a similar tactic; he always resisted such attempts.

I thank the former Leader of the House, Senator Wright, and the Whips, Senator Mullooly and Senator Fitzgerald, for the way they conducted the business of the House. I would go so far as to say that their colleagues in the Dáil could learn a great deal from them on how to conduct their business.

On the question of the type of opposition which can be expected after the Christmas recess, I am sure the Leader and Senators on the other side know that the Progressive Democrats will provide constructive and searching opposition. We have a great opportunity to go forward on the basis of consensus. I am pleased that the Leader has adopted a positive tone. It is not a question of our attempting to vote down legislation but of improving legislation. If that is the spirit in which discussions are held between the Whips and the various group leaders, we can look forward to a very successful Seanad. I wish Members and staff a happy Christmas and hope we will return invigorated and ready for action.

I can assure the Seanad that we will be co-operative. I am sorry Senator O'Toole raised that issue; it was not my wish.

That matter is finished.

The success or otherwise of the House will be determined by a number of factors. It augurs well that we can be assured, irrespective of which side we sit, of fair play and decent treatment. As Leader of the Opposition, Senator Manning set the tone in that he opposed when it was considered necessary but co-operated with the running of the House. I have no doubt Senator Wright, with whom I have a happy association, will do precisely the same.

As regards the Whips, nobody could have been more co-operative than Senator Cosgrave. He moved heaven and earth trying to facilitate Members. I have no doubt that Senator Mullooly and Senator Fitzpatrick will be as co-operative within the remit of their party briefs.

The Labour Party did not have to move sides in this changeover. Having said that, I pay tribute to the work, dedication and loyalty of my Fianna Fáil colleagues when they were on this side of the House. As I said last week I have no intention of decrying that effort. It was very worthwhile and it was good. We provided good Government. The fact that the Government fell is not the fault of any Member of this House. I wish them a happy Christmas and thank them for their comradeship and support over the last two years.

I too welcome Senator Haughey who has been instrumental in the Northern Ireland peace process. He deserves his place in this House. Senator Mulcahy, who has been at the coalface of by-elections — having returned from Cork I know the pain — is also welcome.

Admittedly Senator O'Toole did not say he had a shopping list but I am sure he had it in his hand. As far as possible all shades of opinion will be consulted because that is Senator Manning's style. We would hope that the independence of the Independent Senators will not be subsumed into a party with which we have to deal. As in the past, let the issues decide the case. I wish everybody a happy Christmas.

I had wished to raise on the Adjournment the operational programme for tourism and the importance of having decisions taken on a number of projects with the relevant Minister.

If the Deputy wishes to raise it in that way rather than ask the Leader, that can be done, after the recess.

This matter is urgent in that a number of projects relative to tourism are awaiting approval. All the detailed work has been done and it is necessary to obtain sanction from the Department so that these projects can get under way.

A Chathaoirligh, I add my voice to those who say you represent a focus of stability in this House and I am glad you are still in the Chair. I join in the welcome given by my colleagues to the two new Senators. However, to be honest, I have to say that I consider the action of the then Acting Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, was nothing other than an abuse of power on the part of somebody who had resigned as Taoiseach and chose to exercise power quite ruthlessly in the dying days of his administration.

Just to show that I am completely impartial, although I normally agree very much with my friend, Senator Magner, I think it is interesting that he said that Senator Mulcahy had earned his place by running in by-elections for the Dáil. I do not think so. I mean no disrespect to Senator Mulcahy, but I do not think an appointment as Senator should be seen as a reward for people who have not got into the Dáil. As I am on that track let me say that the behaviour of Deputy Reynolds contrasts strangely and very unfavourably with the behaviour of the new Leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Ahern — to whom I send my very best wishes because it has been a difficult thing for him to have the prize snatched from him — and the new Taoiseach, Deputy Bruton, in his inaction with regard to our Commissioner in Europe, Mr. Flynn.

I would like the Senator to put a question to the Leader. He has not had one all day.

One does not get everything one would like in this world. I also wish a happy Christmas to staff of the House, the ushers and, in particular, the Library staff who, in difficult circumstances and with small resources do an extremely good job by providing us with back up and research information. I look forward to the reform of the Seanad of which I am sure Senator Magner is thinking.

A Chathaoirligh, ba mhaith liom Nollaig faoi shéin agus faoi mhaise ag gabháil duit féin agus do gach duine san tSeanad. Tá mé an-shásta go mbeidh tú anseo mar Cathaoirleach.

I join in welcoming the new Senators. Since I was elected to the Seanad I have enjoyed support and help, especially from Senator Wright and Senator Mullooly. As the individual representative of my party, the Democratic Left, I had to rely on the Chair and the other parties, particularly the Progressive Democrats and the Independent Members, for time and I was always very much obliged in that regard. That will give people an idea of the spirit of co-operation that exists in this House of the Oireachtas. Nobody anticipated when I was elected that, within a couple of years, I would be sitting on this side of the House. That is indicative of the change that has taken place in politics in Ireland. My wish for the New Year is that in the future the Seanad will, as it has been doing, play an active and meaningful role in the lives of the people and enact legislation, which it is empowered to do under the Constitution.

I was surprised and disappointed to learn that we would not have a Minister here to discuss the Winter Time Order. However, in the tone set by Senator Manning, I am willing to accept the suggestion that, at a later date, we will find an opportunity to do so. As the Roman Senator said, delend a est Carthago, Carthage must be destroyed. I look forward to the opportunity of having a debate to ensure that we gain that extra hour promised.

I welcome our two new Senators to this side of the House, and I am sure anybody who read the Constitution would disagree with the contribution made on that issue by an Independent Senator.

I congratulate Senator Manning on his appointment to Leader of the House, I believe the time of this House will be used very constructively. I compliment our ex-colleagues and friends opposite for the warmth of their contributions today. I wish to put a suggestion to which the Leader might give consideration. Both the new Programme for Government, which I have read, and the old one, part of which I wrote — I am sure Senator Magner knows what I am talking about — contain significant proposals on reform of the administrative and parliamentary systems, something in which I and Senator Manning have a great interest. This Chamber would be an excellent place for debating those issues. Will the Leader make time available early in the new year to examine in detail the Programme for Government to ascertain the progress we can make on that matter? There is a great deal of commonalty between all parties in that regard. I would also suggest that legislation, such as the amendment of the Ministers and Secretaries Act, an administrative procedures Act, the amendment to the Ombudsman Act — I note Deputy Magner is smiling broadly — and a freedom of information Act should be initiated in this House.

I am touched by the warmth and hospitality extended to me. I hope I will be able to make some small contribution towards the peace process and towards making Members of this House more aware of the thinking of the people in Northern Ireland. I will make any contribution I can towards the peace process. As the House has a busy schedule today and many of my colleagues on both sides wish to speak I will be brief. I thank Members for their hospitality and for allowing me to be here.

I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, and all the Members who welcomed Senator Haughey and me here today. I was proud to be nominated by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds. I hope my experience as a youth leader and my experience in Dublin City Council will enable me contribute to the working of this House. It is important that we are constructive. The people want this Government to succeed and we should do all we can to achieve that end by introducing good legislation to help everybody. I thank everybody for their kinds words today.

Before calling Senator Manning I take this opportunity to wish all Members, staff, ushers and everybody who assists in the smooth running of the Seanad, a very happy Christmas. I thank especially our staff for their hard work during the year and the great courtesy they showed to all Members of the House. They are courteous and hard working and I thank them sincerely for that. Despite the change of Government it would be my hope that we shall have the continued co-operation of all sides of the House in ensuring the better, smoother transaction of our business.

A part from the general goodwill, wishes and promises of co-operation given on the Order of Busiised ness, which are much appreciated, a number of specific points were raised.

Senator O'Toole sought a programme of legislation. Since the new Government held its first meeting this morning, I will be unable to produce that programme until early in the next session. Nonetheless, I will attempt to ensure that legislation is signalled well in advance.

Senator Dardis mentioned the Appropriation Bill. This procedure is a one-off because of the time of year; there will be a full debate later. Because this is a minority Administration, the hand of the House will be greatly strengthened, against Ministers who would endeavour to rush through legislation. This means the Leader of the House will be in a stronger position when demanding a full debate on every issue and full consultation with this House. Despite the extra work imposed on the Whips, there will be a certain benefit to be derived from the new circumstances prevailing.

Senator Daly raised a point about the operational programme for tourism. I am aware of the problem to which he referred and shall contact the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy Kenny, whom I will be meeting this evening and to whom I will pass on the Senator's concerns.

In reply to Senator Quinn, yes, we will endeavour to have this matter debated in the forthcoming session quam celerrime.

I should like to take up Senator Roche's proposal with great enthusiasm. In an earlier session there was a very long, useful debate in the House on reform of the Seanad in the course of which a number of specific proposals were advanced. There is a general concern that the House should take a hard look at itself, in particular to investigate the ways in which it was omitted from some recent developments in the other House. In that respect, early in the new year would be a very good time to begin a debate, including all Members of the House, so that we can consider events and submit proposals because, as Members have often said, it is the House which decides and the House which must lead; we cannot depend on Government to do it for us. I will embrace that proposal in the early new year.

Order of Business agreed to.
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