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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Apr 1996

Vol. 147 No. 1

Substitute Teachers: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann:

conscious of the need to ensure that all schools have access to trained and qualified substitute teachers and aware that children may be at risk and schools unsafe through the casual employment of untrained personnel or the short-term employment of teachers without an appointments procedure;

demands that the supply panel scheme be extended on a nationwide basis to provide a comprehensive system of coverage for approved teachers' absences in primary schools; and

further demands that this be done through the provision of teachers additional to those currently in the service, who will be required for the reduction of class size and, consequently, that student numbers in colleges of education both the graduate or normal courses be increased.

This issue is of crucial importance to teachers at primary level in all parts of the country. It is one of those issues of which people are not aware. Schools are finding it difficult to get trained and qualified teachers at the moment. There is a shortage of qualified substitutes in the primary school area and this is raising serious questions about safety implications, etc. I was in contact with an INTO representative from a midland county who said that, in a cluster of schools in one catchment area which had five teachers on maternity leave, not one of them was being replaced by a qualified and trained teacher. The implications of that are extraordinary.

While I recognise that the Whip applies to my Government colleagues, they should recognise that this serious issue has been around for a long time. I know what I say will not only be shared by those on the Government benches but also by the officials and inspectors in the Department of Education and the Minister herself. I also know there will be financial constraints. I am trying to put forward a proposal that would make life easier all round and give the Minister a certain strength in dealing with the Government and the Department of Finance.

This matter has now reached crisis proportions. School principals and boards of management are unable to ensure the availability of an adequate number of teachers to cover for colleagues who are ill, on maternity leave or other approved absences. Schools — and this could apply to the board of management, the chairperson of the board, the school principal or whoever is in charge — have stark choices to make. Sometimes the class is divided among other classes, resulting in disruption throughout the school with every class being affected. Other times the remedial teacher, if there is one in the school area, is drafted in to take over the class, resulting in that service being unavailable. While nobody agrees with this, choices must be made. That class needs a teacher, the principal may be at his or her wits end and may take the remedial teacher away from their duties to take over and this creates its own problems.

Sometimes the class is taken over by an administrative principal, if there is one in the school, resulting in important administrative and curricular work being neglected and the school loses out. Sometimes unqualified and untrained personnel are employed to supervise the classes, giving rise to the most serious questions regarding safety and education. I stress the safety aspect. I will certainly shout "I told you so" if this arises again. Who would take responsibility if a child was abused or misused in any way by an untrained person given charge of pupils without any appointment or filtering procedure, which is what is happening at the moment?

I am not pointing the finger at the boards of management. Although I do not agree with their actions, I sympathise with them. They have run out of alternatives or options and they can only get an untrained person or responsible adult to supervise in these situations. Other times — regrettably this is a growing trend — pupils are staying at home because there is no teacher, which gives rise to a child's constitutional right to primary education being suppressed.

The teaching community and the INTO are fast reaching a stage where we believe the only way to draw public attention to this matter would be by taking some form of industrial action where, if there is no proper attempt to supply qualified substitute teachers, we will refuse to cover for absent colleagues. That is bound to happen sooner or later. Nobody wants to go down that avenue, particularly as we are trying to agree on a matter on which there is common consensus. The Primary Education Review Body in 1989 and every report since then have thoroughly supported such an arrangement. Every official I know in the Department of Education also supports some element of improving substitution and the Minister has also said it time and again. It is a matter of putting pressure on the Department of Finance.

The situation is critical. We ran into a problem last year — it was covered extensively by the media — when a teacher from Australia working in this country was discovered to have been guilty of offences relating to paedophilia there. This person, who was a qualified teacher, had passed through our system, which did not have a filtration process. This shows the need to be careful. This person was appointed for a short term but children were still at risk. That caused extraordinary difficulties and worries for parents, the teaching staff, the principals of the schools where this person taught and the boards of management of those schools. Thankfully, nothing happened to the children on that occasion but it will happen some time.

People talk about the Kilkenny report, the Kelly Fitzgerald case, where the system falls down and where we should put in support structures. This is one of those areas. While I do not want to sensationalise it, this is one aspect of safety that is becoming more worrying to us. It is unfair on pupils, parents teachers and school management, all of whom are struggling to provide an education service in Europe's most under funded primary education sector.

My proposal would involve no additional cost to the State. Last year the State spent more than £3 million employing untrained and unqualified personnel to supervise primary school classes. That money alone would employ enough full-time, qualified teachers to meet one-third of the needs of primary education. The Department of Education estimates that the average number of substitutes required in any one day for the 21,000 teachers around the country is 800. The £3 million a year which the Department is spending on untrained and unqualified personnel would allow for the employment of over 200 qualified teachers who could then be assigned to areas, regions or schools where they would be available for substitute work for a cluster of schools or if there was no need for a substitute on a certain day, they could do remedial or curricular work; it is not a matter of having people standing around doing nothing. This is a no cost beginning of a resolution to this problem and it should be implemented immediately.

It is only a matter of time before schools begin advising pupils to remain at home because of a lack of teachers. Schools will be faced with a clear alternative. Their legal advice will be that on the one hand children have a constitutional right to education, while on the other management have a legislative duty to ensure the safety of their pupils. If they cannot vouch for the safety of the pupils by having trust and total confidence in the person they put in to supervise, they must then make a choice: do they risk exposing the school board to a liability or risk depriving the child of his or her constitutional rights? That is an impossible choice for school boards to have to face and there is a clear responsibility and duty on the Department to deal with it.

There is a shortage of teachers at present too and the motion asks that the graduate course be continued and the number of students in the normal teacher course increased. People would say immediately that pupil numbers are dropping. This can be explained by a simple calculation. The Department reckons there will be more than 400,000 pupils at primary level in whatever number of years they are prognosticating at present. Let us say there will be 420,000 pupils. If one divides that figure by the 21,000 teachers — an easy calculation — in the system, it results in a pupil/teacher ratio of 21, which is still the highest in Europe. That means that with the fall in pupil numbers and using every teacher in the system continuously, Ireland will still not reach the European average class size. Neither does it provide the 400 or 500 additional teachers which the Department reckons would be needed to give nationwide remediation cover. Certainly, it does not make any teachers available for the education of children with special needs. I read a terrible story recently of a child with autism who has no recognition whatsoever within the system. I know the child and the child's family.

I do not want to stand here and say that the Department of Education is uncaring, unfeeling or whatever; it is not. The people in the Department would share the views I am putting forward. They are being stymied by the Department of Finance which will not give them the money to implement what I am proposing here. Therefore, I would ask the House to recognise that the motion does not propose that all this be done immediately. I am saying use the £3 million which is going to untrained personnel immediately to begin this process, extend the supply panel of teachers immediately to cover a third of the country and let us move on gradually after that.

I ask the Minister to seize the opportunity to resolve this problem. It is an issue which is becoming more and more problematic throughout the country. It is no more than our duty and the Minister's to address it, a duty which has the force of a constitutional imperative. I ask the Minister to give thorough thought to what we are proposing here, that the Government's amendment not be moved and that the Government concede the motion as proposed. I ask that it be recognised that the motion is progressive, responsible, budget neutral and in the best interest of pupils, teachers, parents and those running schools.

The views I am articulating are not just the narrow views of teachers. Parents would feel even more strongly than teachers do about many aspects of this matter. Put the two groups together and both parents and teachers are absolutely ad idem on the matter. Catholic management, Church of Ireland management, Gaelscoileanna and Educate Together have all been in contact with teachers asking us to make a move on this issue.

I must remind the Senator that his time is up.

This motion represents the interests and policy of the total education community and partners. I ask the Minister to concede it and I propose the motion.

I am happy to second the motion by my distinguished colleague, Senator O'Toole. I was until recently a teacher so I still take an interest in these educational matters, although I must say I am heartily glad that I will never see another examination paper with malicious intent.

I want to look at this matter under a number of headings. First, I will take up the issue of the current shortage which everybody agrees exists. I want to trace it back to a question which was asked on 20 February this year by Deputy Síle de Valera, who I see is rather charmingly described as "Miss de Valera". She "asked the Minister for Education the number of days worked by substitute teachers, both trained and untrained, on a county by county basis in primary schools for the school years 1994/1995 and to date in the 1995/1996 school year; the steps, if any, she proposes to take to deal with the shortage of trained primary substitute teachers; and if she will make a statement on the matter.[3657/96]".

The Minister did make a statement, which I may just put formally on the record of the House.

I would ask the Senator to clarify from what he is quoting.

I am quoting from Question No. 65, Official Report, 20 February 1996; Vol. 461, column 1827. Can I take it that rather than reciting it, the reply will automatically be put on the record?

Following is the reply:

Minister for Education (Ms Bhreathnach): The information requested by the Deputy is as follows.

I share the Deputy's concern that primary schools in some areas have recently been experiencing some difficulties in securing the services of trained substitute teachers.

A pilot project for a supply panel of substitute teachers was introduced in 1993 to cover short-term teacher absences on sick leave. I propose to extend the project to include new locations as soon as resources permit.

I would also like to remind the Deputy that, since taking office, I increased substantially the number of entrants into colleges of education, to 429 in 1993, 460 in 1994 and 462 in 1995. This represents a dramatic improvement on the 1992 position, when only 275 students entered the colleges of education. Furthermore, in January 1995 I introduced a special 18-month post-graduate course for 180 students in the colleges of education. This will mean that a total of over 600 additional newly-qualified teachers will be available for employment in schools for the 1996-97 school year.

The initiatives outlined above, together with the projected reduction in overall pupil enrolments at primary level — from over 478,000 at present to approximately 444,000 in 1998-99 — will alleviate the difficulties in 1996-97 and will give rise to a surplus of teachers in subsequent years. I am satisfied, therefore, that the present difficulties are of a temporary nature only.

Days worked by substitute teachers for 1994-95 school year.

County

Trained

Untrained

Carlow

1,151

749

Cavan

876

1,721

Clare

4,182

983

Cork

17,016

2,225

Donegal

2,670

4,158

Dublin

26,754

13,999

Galway

6,935

3,172

Kerry

7,167

444

Kildare

3,872

3,149

Kilkenny

2,437

1,128

Laois

2,061

822

Leitrim

378

721

Limerick

5,823

1,205

Longford

481

945

Louth

1,612

2,816

Mayo

2,218

2,654

Meath

2,531

2,498

Monaghan

639

2,124

Offaly

2,133

1,115

Roscommon

865

1,177

Sligo

1,492

1,394

Tipperary

4,869

1,724

Waterford

3,009

1,290

Westmeath

1,658

1,354

Wexford

2,961

3,071

Wicklow

2,279

2,610

Days worked by substitute teachers to date in the school year 1995-96

County

Trained

Untrained

Carlow

430

306

Cavan

372

677

Clare

1,405

261

Cork

6,764

1,109

Donegal

989

1,815

Dublin

9,124

9,077

Galway

2,760

1,146

Kerry

2,747

113

Kildare

1,439

1,385

Kilkenny

946

605

Laois

640

497

Leitrim

159

316

Limerick

2,565

545

Longford

152

211

Louth

744

1,973

Mayo

811

955

Monaghan

206

932

Offaly

519

688

Roscommon

450

406

Sligo

486

549

Tipperary

2,318

912

Waterford

847

511

Westmeath

549

744

Wexford

966

1,126

Wicklow

1,049

1,415

I am most grateful. I want to look at the figures quickly, particularly the table "Days worked by substitute teachers to date in the school year 1995-96". If I look at a number of counties in particular, in County Donegal, for example, there were more days taught — as far as I understand it — by untrained supply teachers than by trained; in Dublin, they numbers are almost exactly equal, that is, 9,124 trained as against 9,077 untrained; in County Kildare the numbers were also roughly equal; and in County Wexford and County Wicklow the number of untrained teachers was greater. That is an astonishing situation — more teaching was being done by untrained people than by trained. I simply do not regard that as acceptable. I do not know how any Minister for Education can assume it is acceptable. For that reason I would say that the Minister's reply, which followed the predictable lines — that since taking office there had been an increase in the intake into teacher training colleges, that there was a very welcome development in the form of a pilot scheme and that the projected demography of education indicated there would be a drop-off in pupil numbers and all these matters combined would cure the situation of themselves by 1997 — is overoptimistic.

Therefore, the reply to that question on 20 February is inadequate. It is quite clear that we are in a difficult and unrealistic situation. Out of a total number of 167,317 days worked by substitute teachers for the school year 1994-95, 59,248 of them were worked by untrained teachers. That is 35 per cent — over one third of all teacher absences were covered by untrained substitute teachers. As a result the State is clearly seen to be spending millions of pounds of taxpayers' money on unqualified substitute cover for approved teacher absences. This, as my colleague, Senator O'Toole, said, is obviously an investment which is not paying dividends, but this is what is clearly revealed.

In many instances no cover whatsoever was provided for teacher absences and in such cases schools concerned had no option but to put children into other classes in the school. This affects the education, not just of the pupils whose teacher is absence but it also has a kind of displacement effect so that it spreads throughout the entire situation in the school.

What is the reality at present? Senator O'Toole has indicated some of it. The reality for principals is that they are forced into a situation where they must take up a variety of options. These include: dividing the pupils willy-nilly around other classes, that is, the displacement effect to which I have already referred; persuading retired teachers to return — I must say I would take a lot of persuading — to the classroom; finding someone with other qualifications; employing an untrained person to supervise classes; and redeploying the remedial teacher.

Senator O'Toole made a clear and passionate plea, for example, in a situation where an autistic child is disadvantaged because there is no remedial teacher. Does the Minister want to spread this effect throughout the educational system? The establishment of panels of supply teachers is the only responsible way to deal with this situation, as children are entitled to have a qualified teacher working with them on a daily basis.

Senator O'Toole referred to the safety of children and we would all agree that this is absolutely paramount. He mentioned the case of an Australian man and I remember it being brought up on "The Pat Kenny Show". I was horrified to learn that somebody had managed to penetrate the educational system with a record of sexual offences in Australia. It involved not only convictions for specific sexual offences but also for being in possession of pornographic films and photographs demonstrating him in flagrante delicto with some of these children. That is a clear source of worry to any parent. Of course, I cannot speak as a parent but I can speak as an uncle. I am glad to say most of my nieces and nephews have now matured beyond the clutches of such people. We must take responsibility to ensure this situation is not allowed to continue and it will continue as long as we have the large scale employment of untrained personnel. I remind the Minister of State that in my quick analysis of the figures I was able to demonstrate that in four or five counties there are more untrained than trained teachers.

A pilot project for a supply panel for substitute teachers was introduced in 1993 to cover short-term teacher absences on sick leave in three areas — Castlebar, Dublin and Limerick — with approximately 30 teachers between the three schemes. It is imperative that this scheme be extended — and I look forward to the Minister of State announcing that this evening — as a matter of urgency on a nationwide basis to cover for approved teacher absences in primary schools. It is vital that such schemes to extend panels of supply teachers should be achieved by the provision of teachers additional to those currently serving. If such schemes were to be staffed by teachers redeployed from the demographic surplus, the pupil-teacher ratio would not decrease and there would be no improvement in the remedial service for primary schools.

The financial implications need to be examined. The substitute teacher needs of primary schools average between 800 and 900 a day — a large figure. Currently, the budget for substitution is £10,376,654 per annum, or 167,317 days at £62 per day. However, approximately £3,673,376 is spent on unqualified personnel to supervise classes. If this money was used to employ young teachers 229 could be appointed immediately without any additional cost to the State. This would relieve the problem enormously.

The proposal from the INTO and the management authorities seeks 800 teachers on panels nationwide. This would eventually cost approximately £13 million which is only £2.75 million more than the cost of the present unreliable, inadequate and inefficient system. If the teachers were taken from the current stock of teachers it would be at the expense of class size, remedial teachers or special education teachers. An increase in the intake to the colleges of education is vital for a number of reasons which Senator O'Toole will outline.

I thank the INTO for the way it briefed me. It is a union for which I have the highest respect, not only because my colleague Senator O'Toole is involved in it but also because a former pupil of mine, Sally Sheils, occupies a very significant post in it, which shows the value of a good education.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:

"conscious of the need to ensure that all pupils attending primary schools have access to trained and qualified substitute teachers notes the measures which have been taken by the Minister for Education in this regard; and calls on the Minister to continue to take the necessary steps to ensure that the required number of trained and qualified teachers is available.".

This evening's motion is unnecessary because everybody is aware of the steps taken in the last two or three years in this area. The Minister of State will reiterate what has been done and will set out proposals for the future. I am confident that what is required by the Senators supporting the motion will be delivered — not today or tomorrow but within a proper timescale.

I am disappointed with some of the language used in the motion. It could be construed that boards of management are inclined to take risks with safety through the casual employment of untrained personnel. We all know constituents who have served for years as untrained teachers in the system and have become good teachers. All they lack is a qualification. They are good people, teaching in a competent fashion, whose training has been on the job.

This is not a new problem and three years ago the Minister took steps to sort it out. A pilot project was put in place in three centres and it was very successful. The results of the project which are now available will form the basis for the nationwide extension of the scheme. A debate on the matter is useful because it gives us a chance to look at the aims and objectives of the system and to see if the goals are being achieved. The national system is delivering the goods although, naturally, there are hiccups here and there.

I do not think the aims and objectives we set for the national system are adequate to meet the needs of today's society. We are members of the EU yet most Irish people are not able to have a basic conversation with 70 per cent of their fellow EU citizens. The Irish education system is not responding to that deficit. No attempt is being made to become full members of the EU. It should be a national objective to start teaching languages in national schools as soon as possible. Since young children deal with languages easily and naturally, the obvious approach would be to start teaching languages in national schools. Less time might have to be given to other disciplines but that could be accommodated in the system; it might require a redrawing of syllabi at post-primary level.

To complete the package we could ask the universities, which embody the intelligentia, to set up their own entrance exam for their system once and for all. They have never bothered to try to do that. They put undue pressure on the secondary school system. The use of the leaving certificate as the entrance examination for the next stage in education distorts post-primary education. The universities need to get their act together and devise a system, other than the leaving certificate points system, to offer places for their own system in their own way. The post-primary sector could then respond to the natural needs of its clients.

The motion calls for something necessary and good. The 1993 pilot project was based in Ballymun and Finglas, Limerick city and north Mayo. Two schools in each area were used as feeder schools for the others. In each of those schools five temporary teachers were appointed. If a problem arose in a school's catchment area, one of those teachers met the need. It worked extremely well; boards of management, principals, teachers and parent associations were happy with it. We now have the basis for a national scheme. It has been found to be a good system and we must now look at extending it. My party, the Minister, the Minister of State and the Government are committed to it; when we hear from the Minister of State that will become clear. However, the Government must act is a responsible and efficient manner and the Minister will hardly announce that this will happen tomorrow. He will be cautious — the scheme will be introduced in accordance with a plan and the cost will be absorbed in a normal and organised fashion. I am glad Senators drew attention to this as it is an important matter and I am confident the Government will put in place a scheme to deliver what is sought throughout the system within a reasonable time. I hope this will not be a contentious debate and that we do not have a division because that would be unnecessary.

I support the motion and am glad of the opportunity to speak on it. Part of my work as a guidance counsellor is to link with six primary schools north of the Liffey. I rang the principals to ask their professional opinion — I do not know their political opinions — about trained and untrained teachers in their schools. Each principal gave me examples of what he or she had to do to find a teacher — ring the INTO or scour the highways and byways to find someone to work as relief when a teacher was absent. One school, St. Gabriel's, is employing a 70 year old teacher because it could not get a qualified teacher. The teacher in question is excellent and doing a good job but she is dealing, in one classroom, with a range of ability across three classes — different reading stages, different sums, different learning styles, etc. I do not think the Minister would agree with that for one moment, nor would anyone who deals with education.

The White Paper stated that, as a result of new projects coming on stream, there are various ways teachers are being sucked out of the system — home/school links, teacher counselling, in-service training, remedial teaching, early start programmes, etc. Where are the replacements for those teachers? There is no back-up. The INTO has accepted the early retirement scheme; if that is introduced, how will it affect the setting up of the panel? The pilot scheme is in only three areas — Dublin, Limerick and in the west. The supply panel for Dublin has only ten teachers, as I found from my contacts with primary schools. Something is wrong here because this does not stand up.

If something happens in the school when this untrained teacher is in charge, it will be the principal rather than the teacher who will take the blame. It has been said that there are many excellent untrained people but is it suggested that we should take untrained as against trained teachers? There is a great difference between them, such as knowledge of course content and the experience faced in the training programme of going into the school system and dealing with problems as they arise. There are many problems with which untrained teachers cannot cope, particularly those that arise from lack of support in the home and the area. Teachers and principals must then act in loco parentis, taking over the role of the parent and dealing with every aspect of the child's upbringing from the age of four.

During discussion on the White Paper we talked about the cost of the various schemes that were to be introduced throughout the education system. I thought we would start at the beginning but the White Paper did not do that. It introduced novel ideas and new untested concepts, yet early start programmes in all areas lack the support to help teachers deal with children from an early age. Nothing is worse than not getting help from the beginning. If we do not allow trained teachers to work with young children from four years old upward, we have no chance of dealing with discipline, pupil-teacher ratios, reading ability, slow learners or any aspect of their learning when they reach the age of 12, at which stage there is huge variation.

To suggest that, because numbers in primary schools will decline we will not need extra people coming into teacher training is rubbish. The pupil-teacher ratio should be lowered. At present classes in disadvantaged areas have 25 to 30 pupils. I cannot understand why we get it so wrong. I would rather the Minister dropped the regional education plan for the vocational education committees and started to get it right at the bottom. Young children need all the support they can get and if we had got it right, there would be no difficulty dealing with the colossal problems which now arise at age 12 when the children enter second level.

This motion is timely and I ask the Minister of State to review the matter. There should be an increase in numbers going into teacher training colleges and there should be a supply panel to cover all Ireland. If we had that, we might stymie problems which arise later. It will be worthwhile if the Minister takes this message away with him to the public. If things continue, the confidence of the teaching profession will be undermined and none of us wants that.

The Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach, in reply to a Parliamentary Question on 28 February 1995, acknowledged there are difficulties in securing the services of trained substitute teachers in the current school year. However, as the Minister went on to point out, the current shortage is of a temporary nature only.

It is hardly necessary for me to say that all of us who are involved in the provision and delivery of education are committed to ensuring all pupils attending primary schools have access to fully trained and qualified teachers. This demonstrates the enormous value which both the Government and the Irish people attach to education. It is acknowledged that education makes a fundamentally important contribution to the quality and well being of Irish society. Education will play an even more crucial role in the social, intellectual, cultural, economic and political life of the country as it faces into the new century.

Ireland has a long and distinctive educational tradition incorporating important values. Throughout our history, education has drawn to its service many gifted individuals of great dedication and commitment. Parents have made great sacrifices to obtain the benefits of education for their children. The quality and depth of this educational tradition, the achievements in expansion and development of the education system in recent decades and the informed awareness of, and interest in, educational issues among the public is a source of great confidence to Irish society as it charts its way forward towards a new era in Irish education.

The State's role in education arises as part of its overall concern to achieve economic prosperity, social well being and a good quality of life within a democratically structured society. This concern affirms fundamental human values and confers on the State a responsibility to protect the rights of individuals and to safeguard the common good. Education is a right of each individual and a means of enhancing the well being and quality of life of the whole society. The State must, therefore, seek to create, promote, and support the conditions within which education can realise its potential in society. The democratic character of Irish society requires education to embrace the diverse traditions, values and beliefs of all its people.

The development of the education and skills of people is as important a source of wealth as the accumulation of more traditional forms of wealth. National and international bodies have identified the central role of education and training as one of the critical sources of economic and social well being in modern society. This is the logical outcome of the increasing centrality of knowledge and skills in shaping economic organisation and national competitiveness. Interlinked with this is the emerging economic necessity for lifelong learning, given the speed with which knowledge and skills become outdated. For these and many other reasons, expenditure on education and training is a vital investment in economic growth and improved social cohesion.

Links between education and the economy at national and institutional level are important. This has been recognised by successive Governments, the social partners and various expert bodies. The contribution of education and training to economic prosperity has been underlined in successive national understandings with the social partners and in independent studies carried out by, for instance, the National Economic and Social Council and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. These developments have placed education at centre stage as part of more broadly based economic and social policies.

The Government is committed to continuing this process. The Government's concern with this key dimension of education complements and reinforces the fundamental contribution of education to individual and social development. Enhancing the contribution of education and training to economic prosperity requires an independent and dynamic education system which is systematically linked to the economic planning process.

Students within the educational system are, accordingly, entitled to the highest standards of teaching and to be facilitated in the attainment of the highest quality of learning. Thus, this Government is committed to ensuring and promoting the highest standards of education. This encompasses a variety of interdependent factors, including the quality of the curriculum, teaching and teachers in schools. In this regard, effective school and institutional management and planning processes are also vital.

It is my personal view, and indeed that of the Government, that no other element of the education system has a greater influence on high standards than the quality of our teaching profession. The contribution of the teaching profession to the education system is fundamental. The commitment of the teaching profession is central to the quality of Irish education. Irish teachers provide a first rate service to the young people whom they teach daily. The White Paper on Education supports this view. It enshrines this position in official Government policy and it stresses that the status of the teaching profession is of central importance to the continuing development of a first class education system for the decades ahead.

A profession, as traditionally understood, is characterised by the following principal characteristics: its members have technical competence acquired through long education, training and practice and they adhere to norms of professional behaviour and service commitments that are agreed with colleagues. The White Paper, which was published in April 1995, acknowledges the importance of teachers' education and training. It acknowledges that, in line with other professions, initial teacher education cannot be regarded as the final preparation for a lifetime of education. It recognises that, because of changing social and economic circumstances, the professional development needs of teachers have increased sharply in recent years, a trend which is set to continue and intensify in the future.

That is why the Minister for Education is developing a national policy on a comprehensive programme of in-career provision relevant to all teachers. This is why the Minister established the in-career development unit in the Department of Education in 1994. With the assistance of the European Union, an expenditure of almost £40 million is committed to in-career development for teachers until 1999. As the Minister has already promised, commitments in the White Paper for ongoing training to meet the professional needs of teachers will be delivered.

A feature of the teaching profession which has been recognised nationally and internationally is the commitment of teachers to service. This is recognised by the Irish people. For example, an Irish Independent survey last January showed that Irish people value the contribution made by teachers to the community more than that of any other profession. The Irish people have a high level of confidence in teachers which carries with it high expectations. With this very positive endorsement of the teaching profession, it is, of course, a cause of considerable concern that in the current school year there has been an inadequate supply of trained substitute teachers. However, it is important we do not lose sight of the reality, which is that these difficulties are of a temporary nature only.

Let me outline the main factors which have led to the current temporary shortage of trained teachers. First, a total of 980 permanent posts, which would otherwise have been lost as a consequence of declining enrolments nationally, have been retained in the system over the past three years. Of that total, 570 new posts were established in the special education and disadvantaged areas, while the balance of 410 posts was used to effect substantial improvements in the pupil-teacher ratio and maximum class size guidelines. As a result, the pupil teacher ratio has been reduced from its 1992-93 level of 25.2:1 to 22.9: 1 in the current school year. The second factor contributing to the current shortage has been the increase in the number of teachers who have opted to avail of voluntary retirement. The number of teachers opting for this form of retirement has increased substantially from 138 in 1992 to 273 in 1995.

Another factor is the number of teachers on career breaks, which in the current year is over 900. This represents almost 5 per cent of the total primary teaching profession. When the career break scheme was originally introduced for primary teachers, there was a significant oversupply of trained teachers.

There has also been a noticeable increase over the last three years in the requirements for substitute teachers. In 1994-95, for example, a total of 950 substitute teachers were required to cover for sick leave, maternity leave, secondments and study leave.

Since taking up office the Minister for Education has increased substantially the number of entrants into the colleges of education each year. The number of students entering the colleges increased from 275 in 1992 to 462 in 1995. In addition, in January 1995 the Minister introduced a special 18 month post graduate course for 180 students in the colleges of education. All this will mean that a total of over 600 newly qualified teachers will be available for employment in schools this September. While decisions have not yet been taken regarding the number of entrants to the colleges of education for the 1996-97 academic year, I assure the House that all factors which impinge on the teacher supply/demand balance will again be thoroughly reviewed before final decisions will be taken.

Late last year the Minister announced that teachers trained for the primary school system in Northern Ireland and the EU, who have secured the appropriate recognised teaching qualifications, may teach in the Irish primary school system at full salary for a two year period pending their successful completion of the scrúdú cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge. This is a considerable advance on the previous situation where such teachers could be employed but were classified and paid as untrained substitutes. This initiative should lead to an increase in the number of teachers from Northern Ireland and the EU available to teach in our schools.

Detailed aspects of the initiative are being finalised at present together with the arrangements which will be put in place to assist such teachers to prepare for the scrúdú cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge. The revised arrangement will be fully operative for the start of the 1996-97 school year and details will be notified to the schools and other relevant interests in the near future.

Turning to the issue of the supply panel, the general consensus among the education partners is that the existing scheme, which was confirmed as a permanent scheme in September 1995 following a two year pilot phase, works very satisfactorily. The scheme will continue to be reviewed with a view to its expansion in the future in the light of the available resources.

The development of a national supply panel with a ratio of one substitute teacher to 35 ordinary teachers would require the appointment of an additional 600 teachers. The House will doubtless appreciate that existing resources do not allow for the appointment of this number of additional teachers for this purpose at present.

In addition, the House will be aware that in planning for the future we must take account of declining pupil enrolments. The projected reduction in overall pupil enrolments at primary level from over 478,000 at present to approximately 440,000 in 1998-99 is very substantial. This reduction will have a significant impact on the number of posts which will become surplus to requirement over the next number of years.

I call on the House to commend the Minister for her swift response to the current temporary difficulties. In light of the many initiatives which the Minister has introduced or is about to introduce and which I have detailed here, I know the House will share my confidence in the Minister's ability to provide an enhanced and better educational system, one that will serve us well into the next century.

I wish to make some general comments about the funding of education in the context of this motion. In his speech the Minister of State stated:

The Irish people have a high level of confidence in teachers. This carries with it high expectations.

Many of us who have this high confidence and high expectation have been shaken to learn, as I have only learned in the past couple of days, that a large number of substitute teachers are not trained or qualified. It is clear from the Minister of State's speech that he is also worried, as is the Minister, and is taking action in this area.

The motion highlights a problem that cries out for resolution. Teaching is a professional activity that can be done only by professionals. This applies whether the teaching is being done at primary, secondary or at any level. To have unqualified people acting as substitutes, except in the most exceptional of circumstances, is to confuse the difference between teaching and baby-sitting. However, the facts show that unqualified people are substituting on a scale that is unacceptable. Indeed, the national figures mask a situation that is much worse in many local areas.

If one looks at the figures county by county it will be apparent that the number of days worked by non-qualified substitutes far exceeds those worked by qualified teachers. I doubt if the nation is aware of this, which is why we have been stunned with this information. In some counties it would appear that qualified substitutes are hardly to be found at all.

I compliment my colleague, Senator O'Toole, for raising this matter and in the manner in which he did so today. I know it is an issue of great concern to parents, and rightly so. However, we must be realistic in terms of our expectations for putting things right. In this context, is the motion realistic?

This problem is not being ignored by the Department; this is clear from the answer the Minister has given tonight. The pilot scheme has been in operation and is to be extended. The number of student teachers has been increased over the past number of years. We would all like the problem to be solved overnight by a further massive injection of resources. However, we cannot reasonably expect this to happen. The Minister has clearly made the case for this.

My colleagues will be aware that I have imposed a discipline on myself in the House over the past three years. I refrain from calling for anything that will cost money unless at the same time I suggest where the money is to come from. This is my problem here. To resolve matters would cost a lot of money, which in practice can only come from two places — from the existing education budget or some other Department budget, or from asking the taxpayers to contribute more.

If we were to divert resources from elsewhere to education, where would we begin? The more I learn about education the more I hear about many worthy projects that are starved of resources. It would be very difficult to find somebody or something to cut back on to free up resources. However, if we decide to increase the education budget we create a different kind of problem. Education must fight its corner for demands on the public purse from every direction in addition to demands from the taxpayers to reduce taxation.

The difficulty is the vast amount of money we already spend on education. It may well be underfunded from the point of view of people within the profession. However, it already swallows up a sizeable proportion of our overall national spending. It is not surprising, therefore, that in view of the huge sums involved, education is constantly under pressure to reduce its budget in real terms. Given all the other spending priorities and our overriding need to keep public spending under control, it is not surprising that it is so difficult to increase the budget.

The best chance of making improvements in education is by using the resources that will be freed up by the drop in student numbers brought to our attention by the Minister tonight. As that works its way through the system, there are two ways of responding to the fall in numbers. The Department of Finance wants to cut the Education budget expenditure and spend less on education as the student numbers drop. That would shut the door forever on the prospect of improving the current system, which the Minister himself recognises is open to criticism. We would be shutting the door forever on the prospect of tackling problems such as that which is the subject of this motion.

The alternative approach is to use the resources which are freed up to do the things we should be doing anyway and which the Department puts on a long list headed "when resources permit". These include improving the pupil teacher ratio. This is the correct approach and it is not too early to start making the case. If the Department of Education does not stake a claim to these resources it will find that they will be hijacked for other purposes. We all know there is no shortage of worthy causes across the spectrum of public spending.

It is pretty unrealistic to look for significantly more money for education, apart from increases to deal with inflation. However, it is both realistic and necessary to fight hard to avoid any drop in those resources when the falling student numbers could be used to justify such a drop. That is where we should focus our attention. We should resolve now to use the opportunity provided by the falling student numbers, as evidenced by the Minister, to improve the quality of Irish education. Education cannot go on living forever in the twilight world of those Department of Finance words — when resources permit. This is especially true of the primary sector which for many years has been the cinderella of education.

It is in the primary sector that the fall off in student numbers will show first. The figures were drawn to our attention by the Minister, who said that enrolments at primary school level will fall from 478,000 at present to approximately 444,000 in the year 1998-99. It is only right therefore that the benefits resulting from that fall off should go to the primary sector and not be siphoned off elsewhere. As the fall in student numbers works its way through the primary sector and eventually to third level, we should replace quantity with quality and not look for ways to make cost savings at the expense of education.

The Minister said that the development of a national supply panel with a ratio of one substitute teacher to 35 ordinary teachers would require the appointment of an additional 600 teachers. This motion calls only for the appointment of 229. I suggest that this motion is aimed at being budget neutral. Its objective is to ensure that the first step towards solving the problem of substitutes should be taken now. It proposes poses that the money currently being spent on untrained teachers should be spent differently and I urge the Minister to give that every consideration.

The notion of untrained teachers should be clarified. Senator O'Toole may correct me, but my understanding is that both Senator Norris and I would be untrained teachers in the primary sector.

I would be completely unfit and I would not dream of doing it.

Even though I regard myself as a fully qualified teacher at a different level, I am not a fully qualified teacher at primary level. How many of the people we are giving out about are not untrained teachers but rather under trained or differently trained teachers?

The fact that I can drive does not qualify me to fly an aeroplane.

Does the Senator call himself a teacher?

I call myself a retired teacher.

He uses the word "teacher" but in the primary sector he would not be regarded as a trained teacher.

Because I would not be and that is perfectly correct. I would be absolutely hopeless. It would be like Senator Kelly teaching Finnegan's Wake.

The argument in creating a hype about all these untrained teachers is slightly misleading. The impression is given that one is taking off the street somebody who has absolutely no idea about education. That is not quite true.

They took someone from Australia off the street.

I am making a valid point and I would appreciate if Senator Norris would let me do so. The people who are regarded as untrained are not quite people off the street with absolutely no idea of education. Most of them — Senator Cotter alluded to another group — have been trained in a different jurisdiction or a different discipline.

Nevertheless, I recognise there is a problem, as does the Minister. It is being examined and I hope it will be examined more seriously even than in this motion tonight. Contrary to what the Minister has said, the problem will not go away. It has existed for quite some time. If teachers can avail of early retirement, a substantial number of them will do so. I believe it will be more than has been estimated and that will cause a drain on the existing number of trained primary school teachers.

We are offering in-service training to primary school teachers. When are they going to do that training? I do not think it is very fair to expect every teacher to give up their vacation time to engage in in-service training. A week or a fortnight is not enough for a decent in-service course. If we are serious about upgrading the quality of our existing primary school teachers, we will expect more and more of them to take substantial school time off in order to avail of in-service courses. That is another drain on the number of trained teachers available.

There are two categories of substitute teacher, short-term and long-term. The latter take the place of teachers who are on career breaks, some to this and the other House. It surprised me that the Minister's speech mentioned that 5 per cent of teachers — in other words, — one in every 20 — are on career breaks. Their places have been taken by temporary teachers. To the outsider they may not look like temporary teachers because they are all young, qualified teachers who are delighted to get a whole-time job. It is not a permanent job but it carries all the responsibilities of permanent post except they do not get the recognition for that year, to which they would be entitled if permanent.

The demand for career breaks and long-term substitution will cause a drain on the number of substitute teachers available to the schools. It may not be a major problem in city schools which have an administrative principal or a remedial teacher. However, what happens in a small two or three teacher rural school if one of the teachers is sick, breaks a leg or is involved in an accident? This is devastating in a two teacher school where one teacher is trying to control everybody from four years old up to sixth class. That is an enormous responsibility for any teacher and I would not like to be in that position. Perhaps the problem is a little more serious and needs to be examined more carefully. We cannot rely too much on the fact that pupil numbers are falling because other factors exacerbate the problem. While falling enrolment numbers may ease the situation, it will not help in the long term.

I support the amendment and I urge the Minister to continue her examination of this problem and to try to find solutions to it. However, this problem, which did not arise overnight, will not be solved quickly or easily.

This issue is of great concern to parents, teachers and school management authorities in every part of the country. The present position in relation to substitute teachers in primary schools is far from satisfactory. The difficulties have been outlined in great detail by Senator O'Toole.

These problems and difficulties did not arise today or yesterday; they have always been there. Some years ago, when there was a high level of unemployment among teachers, it was often difficult to obtain the services of a trained and qualified substitute. This was almost invariably the case when a substitute was required at short notice or for a limited period. The position today is even worse than it was at any time I can remember. The situation was much better when I was going to primary school than it is now. At that time trained and qualified substitutes were freely available from among the ranks of the many female teachers who had to retire from teaching as a result of the marriage ban which was then in operation.

At present there is a shortage of trained and qualified applicants for permanent positions. It is understandable that qualified substitutes are almost impossible to find. In most parts of the country the only hope of getting a trained and qualified substitute lies in being able to persuade a retired teacher to take up a substitute position. In many cases retired teachers who agree to take up such positions only do so because they feel obligated to former colleagues or to a board of management.

If the services of a trained and qualified substitute cannot be obtained, then the school principal or the board of management has little choice but to distribute the pupils among the other classes in the school or to employ an untrained person to supervise them. Both these solutions are far from satisfactory. Distributing the pupils among other classes can cause major problems for the classes and for their teachers. These classes are probably overcrowded already and the teachers are under enough strain without having additional pupils entrusted to their care. Any teacher knows that such an arrangement has a disruptive and upsetting effect on the whole school.

The employment of an untrained person to provide substitute cover for an absent teacher is also unsatisfactory. Apart from the other risks involved, it is unfair to the pupils who are entitled to be taught by and in the care of a qualified teacher while they are in school. For these reasons there is a growing demand from teachers, parents and boards of management that arrangements should be put in place to put an end to the employment of untrained personnel in substitute and temporary positions in primary schools.

This motion calls for the extension of the supply panel scheme on a nationwide basis to provide a comprehensive system of coverage for approved teacher absences. I support this call. The present scheme should be extended until all schools have access to trained and qualified substitute teachers. The motion also demands that this should be done through the provision of teachers in addition to those currently in the service. Teachers currently in the service who become available for redeployment as a result of demographic change or declining pupil enrolments should be used to reduce our high pupil teacher ratio. The provision of additional teachers who will be required to put in place the nationwide network of supply panels should be addressed through the recruitment of qualified teachers who are currently employed in temporary positions or who are not currently employed in permanent positions and through substantially increasing the intake in the colleges of education over the next few years.

The main argument which will be made against the nationwide extension of the supply panels will centre on cost. That argument is contained in the Minister's contribution. However, it should be remembered that the payment of unqualified substitutes costs millions of pounds of taxpayers' money each year from which the State and the education service get a poor return. Senator Norris pointed out that of a total of 167,317 days worked by substitute teachers in the school year 1994-95, 59,249 of these days were worked by untrained teachers at a cost of almost £3.5 million. This situation should not and cannot be allowed to continue.

The implementation of the proposals in this motion would solve the problem sooner rather than later. Parents, teachers and boards of management would welcome a commitment from the Minister to the implementation of these proposals. I understand the Minister has acknowledged that the supply panels, which are currently in operation on a pilot basis, are working satisfactorily and are providing an excellent service in the schools in their areas. School principals and boards of management in these areas are saved time and the hassle of trying to locate suitably qualified teachers to act as substitutes. Pupils are happy to see familiar teachers returning to their schools as substitutes. Parents are happy in the knowledge that their children are being taught by and in the care of trained and qualified personnel. When the supply panel network is in operation on a nationwide basis, parents will also be reassured by the fact that all teaching personnel in schools will have come through a recognised selection and appointments procedure, thereby ensuring that every class in every school is in the care of somebody who is capable, responsible and suitable to be left with young children.

The last part of the motion calls for an increase in the student numbers in both graduate and normal courses in the colleges of education. I support the arguments made in favour of that.

I support the amendment. I have great regard for the INTO. I remember a general secretary of the INTO who was most influential in the North. He was a leader of thought and someone whom I admired.

I cannot address this motion properly because I do not have a teaching background. However, I have visited approximately 150 primary schools in the North of Ireland and I know how teachers feel. I come from a jurisdiction where the teaching profession has been under sustained and vicious attack for the past 17 years, and the attacks are mounting. However, the only area of the teaching profession under attack is the one which deals with disadvantaged working class pupils. I am glad Senator Quinn quoted the document, because if the Irish people have a high opinion of their teachers, they should hold on to it as strongly as possible. As a consequence of the debate, whatever its outcome, I hope the INTO view will prevail.

I am similar to a listed building, because if someone looks through my windows, all types of strange old fashioned things will be revealed. One aspect I wish to reveal, although I am not sure it will be good news for the INTO, is that when the war ended and the 1947 Education Act was introduced in the United Kingdom, teachers were recruited on an emergency basis because of the proliferation of new schools, particularly grammar schools, but also many refurbished primary schools. An emergency teacher training school was set in motion and the educational standard laid down for it was that the people should have had continuous education up to the age of 14 years.

They were taken to Larkfield College and these teachers took the brunt of the early days of the new education age under the Labour Party Government in England. Up to the late 1950s they coached pupils in conjunction with formally trained teachers and they did a splendid job. I do not know whether there is any room for such a solution now, as a temporary measure, but these people were recruited in that way. When I signed on at the labour exchange, they asked me if I wanted to be an emergency trained teacher. I said no because I still had money and I wanted to sit and drink for a while before I thought about working at all. Although I had a limited education, I was offered that opportunity. I came to know emergency trained teachers very well and they did a splendid job. I support the amendment but I hope the outcome will please both sides.

I welcome the Minister and I am pleased to contribute to this important motion. We all accept the situation regarding substitute teachers is a total mess at present and needs to be urgently addressed. As previous speakers said, at present 35 per cent of all teacher absences are covered by untrained teachers, a position nobody should accept. As parents many Members have experience of what happens when a teacher is absent. We are aware of the confusion caused by the use of untrained substitute teachers and that, often at short notice, principals must resort to a variety of options, including splitting the classes and distributing the pupils among other classes in the school.

From my experience, retired teachers must sometimes return to teach classes as substitute teachers. On other occasions the school principal is forced to use somebody who is not a fully qualified teacher or to redeploy remedial teachers in the school to teach ordinary classes. Children in primary schools are entitled to have a qualified teacher working with them all the time. The establishment of panels of substitute teachers, as proposed in the motion, is the only way to deal with the current unsatisfactory situation.

In the past totally unsuitable people have been brought in as substitute teachers just because they were the only people available. It is three years since a pilot project to supply substitute teachers was introduced in Castlebar, Dublin and Limerick. This project proved that the substitute system can work and it is now time to extend the scheme nationwide. Given the additional resources which would be required, there are financial implications. For example, it will cost money to bring additional teachers onto the substitute panel. The proposals outlined in the INTO briefing document show that establishing panels nationwide would cost approximately £13 million, which is approximately £2.75 more than the cost of the current system.

If one considers the total education budget, which was £2.1 billion last year, that is a small price to pay to end the current unacceptable system. If one considers that it was possible to abolish third level fees with a stroke of a pen, it should be possible to find the small amount of money within the Department of Education's large budget to introduce an acceptable system of substitute teachers. The entire primary education sector is important. We are aware of its problems, not only in relation to substitute teachers but also regarding a shortage of remedial teachers; but we all recognise that the primary sector is the most important in the educational system. If children are disadvantaged in any way when they leave this sector, they find it difficult to ever catch up and they will often enter the slow lane at second level. They face permanent disadvantage for the rest of their lives.

Resources should be targeted at the primary sector and for a small fraction, approximately 0.1 per cent, of the total education budget, it would be possible to bring about the situation proposed in the motion. I accept that many substitute teachers have been in the system for a number of years and it is important appropriate training is made available to them. Given the importance of the primary sector, I support the motion.

One of the best things about Private Members' motions is that it provides Members with an opportunity to respond to issues as they arise. I am completely appalled by the cheap reactionary headlines which some Members continually put on the shoulders of teachers. As a representative of my party — I suspect I speak, as Richard Nixon once said, for the silent majority in my party — we greatly admire the work of teachers throughout all sectors of the educational system. The good thing about the motion is that it gives me an opportunity to make that point. We recognise that teachers are professionals working in situations which are more difficult than they were ten or 20 years ago. They need our support, not just as legislators, but also through the Department of Education.

Making this point sometimes affords others the opportunity to make the type of reactionary statements newspapers like to pick up in their headlines. However, if this point is not made and the role of teachers is not valued in society, we will quickly go down the road, as Senator McAughtrey outlined, which was taken in Great Britain where teachers are pilloried weekly. The services teachers must provide now are much more difficult than 20 years ago. They face the plethora of society's problems daily and we must recognise this aspect and their professionalism. We must also congratulate them on their role and function in society.

I must declare an interest in this area. Five years ago I came through Trinity College, Dublin, where I completed a H.Dip. course and the one year training I received as a secondary school teacher was not adequate. I know there are detailed proposals in the White Paper to change the system in which teachers are trained, particularly in the secondary education sector but I was not given all the knowledge I should have had during that year. The time provided to acquire the Higher Diploma in Education is far too short.

Many school managers exploit students studying for the Higher Diploma in Education. I know of a school in this city where 12 higher diploma students were used during one academic year. There were 32 teachers in that school. The higher diploma students were not paid a penny for their time or effort. The system in that school has gone on for far too long. We must also ask probing questions about the management of some secondary schools, an area about which I know something.

Before this debate I telephoned eight colleagues with whom I studied five years ago and learned that only one is teaching. Questions must be asked by the Department of Education and by us, as legislators, why that situation pertains. Why are we training teachers when there is no employment for them? I do not accept the argument that the demand for teachers has been reduced over the past number of years because of the demographic change. That is nonsense. The demographic change provides us with a great opportunity to right the wrongs of large classes and to prevent teacher burn out at a young age. I welcome comments by colleagues who have addressed that situation.

The Minister for Education must be congratulated. Progress in politics is slow but one of the endearing achievements of the Minister has been the constant reduction of the pupil-teacher ratio from 25 pupils per teacher to 22 pupils. It is a substantial achievement and the Minister should be congratulated. From my contacts with people in the third level sector, I know there are hundreds of disappointed 21 and 22 year olds who cannot get into the departments of education in the universities. There is a huge supply of willing and able young teachers who want to work in our first and second level sectors. With the policy being pursued by the Government over the past number of years and with increased resources being made available for the primary sector in particular, I hope they will be given a chance. The stipulation made by the Higher Education Authority a number of years ago of 700 is unrealistic and will not meet the demand for teachers which exists in our society.

For too long we have paid lip service to putting children first. We must provide properly qualified teachers in primary schools. The day of asking a 6th class student to look after infants is long gone. Too many people have been criticising teachers who are doing a good job. There has been much criticism on radio programmes over the past few days about Senators retaining their teaching posts while being Members of this House. I hope people will read in today's newspaper about a professional on £64,000 plus a private practice who also holds a seat in this House. People should not attack just one section of the community who are doing a fine and difficult job. An English politician once said that the wrong people were running the country and that bus drivers, council workers and hairdressers should be doing it because they always seem to have the best ideas. It is easy for people to tell teachers how to do their job but if they had to go into a classroom it would be a different story.

While we need smaller classes, we should also have smaller schools. Two hundred or 300 children in a school is too many. It was easier to maintain discipline in smaller schools because there would be no more than 70 or 80 pupils in one playground, which is manageable, and the percentage of difficult pupils would be smaller. It is almost impossible to control children of primary school age, particularly in a school with up to 300 pupils. We should revert to smaller schools. In the past there were inter-school competitions and every school had a team. Now only the top 15, an amalgamation of two or three schools, compete. That was a retrograde step.

Too much pressure is placed on teachers by parents. Recently I heard a psychologist say the biggest problem students faced was parent expectation. Parents want their children to get honours in every subject, to be able to do the long or the high jump, to play the guitar, the violin or, to use an old term, the melodeon. They want their children to be the best at everything; this is wrong. When speaking in schools I often say that pupils should remember there can be only one, two or three places in any race. As someone once wrote, in the race all honour lies, in the striving not the prize. It is better for children to do things in their own way and in their own time.

Years ago a teacher could give a child a lift home in a car or on the back of a bicycle, but today they are liable to be charged with sex abuse. Teachers are blamed if a child slips in the classroom or in a hall. We are placing considerable pressure on teachers today and it is not surprising that they are becoming burned out. It is unfair of the public. People must realise that teachers cannot be held responsible for every problem which arises.

Qualified teachers should be provided in all schools. We have spent a lot of money educating people and it is not good enough to have untrained people taking classes and looking after children. Parents who employ childminders place their children in a better environment and obtain a more reasonable service. If they send their children to school they require first class service from a qualified teacher. Nothing else is good enough. It has been stated on many occasions that the first years at school are the most important in a child's life. From five to nine years of age their personalities and minds are developed, trained and regulated.

At present many children in our cities and towns do not attend school and spend their time joyriding, etc. I spoke to a man yesterday who is experiencing great difficulty in keeping such children off his land. In one week three cars were burnt out on his land by children between the ages of eight and ten years old. Initially they had great fun smashing the windows of the cars before setting them alight. Such children should be better cared for because teachers must endure this kind of behaviour on a daily basis.

It is important that teachers are properly trained and that each child be sent to school. Future history will record that children growing up today did not do as well as those who grew up in the Goldenbridge orphanage, despite its many shortcomings.

I welcome the opportunity to support the motion. I do not understand how any Member can oppose this simple motion which calls on the Minister for Education to continue to take the necessary steps to ensure that the required numbers of trained and qualified teachers remain available. One would have to be completely out of touch with reality to be unaware of the situation which prevails in our schools at all levels. It was never more difficult to be a teacher than it is at present.

I have served on a teachers' selection board for almost 20 years and one of the standard questions put to prospective teachers' inquires is whether they believe they are capable of disciplining and controlling a class. Interview boards conscientiously consider the replies received to this question and engage in an assessment of character and ability. A teacher's selection hinges upon their reply to this question because most prospective applicants for a post are suitably qualified. The selection boards are seeking something more from applicants because they realise the tasks and problems ahead.

I spoke to a woman recently who informed me that her 11 year old son spat in his teacher's face. She asked me what action to take and I gave her very positive advice. I told her I would take her son to see his teacher and make him apologise. I will not inform the House with regard to the second part of the advice I gave, but it was very positive.

This motion should have the unanimous support of Members because it is the simplest piece of business to come before the House. It is seeking a strengthening of teacher's positions. Those who vote against that motion for political or other reasons will suffer the consequences because this matter involves the fundamental of teaching young people how to behave and be good citizens. That is an onerous responsibility for a teacher. Discipline has largely disappeared at home. In these prosperous times it is not unusual to see children in primary schools being given £20 by their parents. Such children do not need to be concerned about their teachers.

I welcome the opportunity to express my strong views on this subject and I hope that politics will not decide the vote on the motion. I appeal to Members of all political persuasions to be sensible because it is important that the motion be carried.

Would the Cathaoirleach object if I asked a question?

The Senator has made his contribution.

The question involves——

The Senator has already spoken. I call on Senator O'Toole to reply.

A point of information.

Could I raise it as a point of information?

I cannot permit the Senator to pose his question.

Perhaps Senator O'Toole might share 20 seconds of his time?

I will deal with the matter if the Senator sends me a written message. I thank the Members who contributed to an exhilarating and wide-ranging debate. Teachers and the partners in education, parents and management, will appreciate the support expressed by Members during this debate. The issues I have put forward represent the points of view of parents and management as much as they do those of teachers.

I recently attended a meeting of the Catholic Primary School Management Association — CPSMA — and the National Parents Council. Those organisations inquired why untrained people are being employed in schools and why the INTO is not taking some action in this regard.

I have much sympathy with Senator McGowan's point regarding discipline and Senator Farrell's point about maintaining order in small schools. It is important to recognise Senator Hayes' point about the exploitation of young teachers and the inadequacy of the one year training course. He is correct in stating that demographic changes will not deal with the problem regarding the shortage of qualified substitute teachers. Some years ago the Minister's adviser and I spent many months considering demographic trends. The figure quoted in this regard during the debate became known as a result of that work.

I take Senator Honan's point with regard to the financing of education. I will return to this matter when dealing with other issues. I am familiar with the points raised by Senator McAughtry. In his memoirs, the Senator's colleague, John Hewitt, stated that his father was one of the few Protestant Unionists who remained a member of the INTO at the time of partition, which was a source of great support to my organisation.

I concede that there is substance in Senator Kelly's point, which is similar to that made by Senator Hayes. I have contacted that Department of Education on numerous occasions to state that the category of "teacher" should be added to those of "trained" and "untrained". Parents would feel more confident as a result. Proposals have been put forward that this could be reflected in the way such people would be paid. They would not be trained primary school teachers.

The Minister of State's argument is somewhat specious — I am sorry that he is not present to hear my reply — because the issue of career breaks is a red herring; Senator Kelly might not have been clear about that. Teachers on career breaks are replaced by temporary teachers, not substitute teachers. This is a completely different category and forms no part of the arbitration. It will have no impact about the availability or otherwise of training; that is important. Substitute teachers cover for people who are on maternity leave, sick leave and a small number of approved absences such as jury service. They do not deal with absences due to career breaks.

My colleague, Senator Quinn, ranged quite widely over the topic. He made a comment about replacing quantity with quality. I firmly and honestly believe that the Minister for Education would welcome this motion being passed here tonight. It would strengthen her hand in negotiations. I have put forward what I consider to be a highly responsible motion. I have put forward a point of view that represents the partners in education; I have costed it and it is budget neutral. I am simply asking that the money now being used to pay untrained personnel to supervise in schools be used to set up the panel of supply teachers. That would allow 230 teachers to be established immediately. I recognise that this does not meet the needs of the system but if the Minister is right and we will not need so many in the future, it allows us to build up to it.

I want to deal with two of the figures given here. If we retain the present number of 20,500 teachers in the system, and apply that to the 444,000 pupils referred to in the Minister's speech, we get a pupil-teacher ratio of 21.6. That is a reduction from the present ratio of 22.9. Even allowing for that, the pupil-teacher ratio will go down by 1 point between now and the turn of the century. If there is to be an improvement, we are all agreed it will not take place before then. If the £10 million used for substitution was provided for the employment of young teachers the whole issue could be dealt with, although I am not asking that that be done. I am asking Members to support a motion which does not cost the tax-payer an extra penny, which improves the quality of education and provides job opportunities for teachers, security for parents and quality for pupils. This is what is wanted in education at this time. I can rarely stand up here and make a proposal which does not cost the taxpayer and which improves the quality of education. I ask for the support of all Members. I ask them to reject the amendment and support the motion.

Amendment put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 23.

  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Calnan, Michael.
  • Cashin, Bill.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Cregan, Denis (Dino).
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Howard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Mary.
  • McAughtry, Sam.
  • McDonagh, Jarlath.
  • Maloney, Seán.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Neville, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Jan.
  • Ross, Shane P.N.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Townsend, Jim.

Níl

  • Bohan, Eddie.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Farrell, Willie.
  • Fitzgerald, Tom.
  • Honan, Cathy.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kiely, Dan.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Lanigan, Mick.
  • Lydon, Don.
  • McGennis, Marian.
  • McGowan, Paddy.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • Norris, David.
  • O'Brien, Francis.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Toole, Joe.
  • Ormonde, Ann.
  • Quinn, Feargal.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Wright, G. V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Cosgrave and Manning; Nil, Senators O'Toole and Fitzgerald.
Amendment declared lost.
Motion put and declared carried.

When is it proposed to sit again?

Next Wednesday at 2.30 p.m.

Barr
Roinn