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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 May 1997

Vol. 151 No. 12

Licensing (Combating Drug Abuse) Bill, 1997: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Bill is another element in the fight against drug abuse. However, it will affect a section of the community legally involved in the operation of public houses and dance halls. Having said that, I accept that the Bill will tackle the problem of rave parties.

I believe that 99 per cent of those who run public houses and dance halls want their operations to be within the law. However, it is difficult for the owners of public houses to monitor the activities of those who enter their premises. I became aware of a recent case where three out of 200 young people who frequented a public house were in possession of or using drugs and the owner faces terrible difficulties as a result. That publican may lose his licence because of the actions of those three people.

About 20 years ago my son was president of the UCD bar committee and, to rid the bar of drugs, he arranged for it to be raided. When the gardaí arrived the noise of drugs being dropped on the floor was like thunder. The bar did not suffer, nor did the people selling drugs which are still available in UCD as they are everywhere else.

How can we monitor people bringing in an E tablets, which is the smallest drug? Certain clubs and pubs in Kilkenny have stopped supplying water to customers. I have had arguments with my children about this; they say people taking E tablets must drink water to bring down their metabolic rate. What can we do about this? We should be educating rather than legislating. Publicans want to eliminate drugs from their premises. GAA clubs, rugby clubs and hockey clubs do not want a drug scene either, but we must face reality.

This legislation imposes huge fines and it will cause great difficulty to people trying to run legitimate businesses. I have no time for drug pushers but I am greatly concerned about people who are dragged into the drug culture. That does not start in discos or bars but outside, when people sell drugs to young kids and they in turn become involved in re-selling them.

Education might seem an innocuous way to tackle the problem, but the Minister for Education has not introduced a drugs education programme. My children are now grown up, they have gone through college and various social environments. They are able to tell me where drugs are available and the Garda knows this also. The problem is not the availability of drugs. We should introduce an educational system rather than impose penalties.

Anyone knowingly selling drugs or allowing his premises to be used for the sale of drugs should be put out of business immediately. Senator Howard represents the publicans, who are a responsible body of people. They try their best to ensure their premises are not misused by drug pushers or drug users, because if that happens they will go out of business fast.

People who run sports clubs do not want drugs sold on their premises. While the legislation is good in that it affects certain people, it does not hit those who promote the sale of drugs to children outside dance halls and pubs. We must target those people who sell drugs. If a dance hall owners or publicans allows the sale of drugs on their premises they should be put out of business and no one running a legitimate business would object.

We have not done enough to create a drugs free culture or to educate children about drugs. Unfortunately, people have died from E, a drug which pervades the drugs scene. How can a publican judge whether a young person enters a premises with five or six tablets? They cannot. How do we deal with that? I suggest we regulate by education rather than by the hard line taken in this Bill. Rogues should be eliminated from every element of society. They are small in number when one considers the number of people involved in legitimate business. If the same amount of money were put into the education of young people about the problems of drug abuse, this Bill would not be necessary.

I am not speaking for any group — operators of pubs, clubs, etc. — but I believe 90 per cent of people who run pubs, clubs or businesses are against the drugs culture because it militates against them. The damage that can be done to premises if drugs are available there is unbelievable; equally, it is difficult for publicans in areas which are popular among young people and if two or three of them decide to sell drugs, the publican is blamed. There is no way a publican can ensure that people do not bring Ecstasy into their premises. The only way it might be stopped is if there was a garda outside the door of every pub and club. Having said that, the publicans and club operators have a responsibility and they generally accept that responsibility but it annoys me that there are places in Dublin where it seems the licensing laws do not apply as pubs and clubs stay open all night. There are rows on these premises, some of which result in deaths. The licensing laws should apply equally to everyone. I am not sure what the Minister can do about this.

This legislation will not eliminate the drug problem. We will not eliminate it by the implementation of any legislation unless the education system is changed. If I was granted a pub licence in the morning, there is no way I could guarantee the elimination of drugs in my pub. It would be impossible. We cannot deal with the problem by hitting it on the head with this legislation, which will try to combat the major players. However, it should not affect a reasonable person doing a reasonable job.

Rave parties are part of the youth culture. I do not know how they can be eliminated. If I was 40 or 50 years younger I might go to one. If that is what young people want, that is what they will do. We have to ensure there is a system whereby the Garda knows where raves are being held. The person who is running the rave can then be told they will be raided if drugs are being sold. Rave parties cannot be eliminated. Young people should be allowed to have drug free raves.

The prevention of the sale and supply of drugs on licensed or unlicensed premises is a beautiful concept which we all agree with. This legislation will not get rid of the problems. I recognise the reasons for the Bill but I would like to see more money going into educating young people about the damage done by drugs and more emphasis on the fact that publicans and club owners do not want their premises used to sell drugs. Drug abuse is being combated. It cannot be eliminated, so we should try to contain it through education rather than using this legislation as a hammer to hit people who in many cases have no impact on the end result.

I wish to share my time with Senator Howard.

Sitting suspended at 11.40 a.m. and resumed at 12 noon.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I regret to inform the Senator that it is not permissible to share time on Second Stage.

I welcome this Bill. It is part of the Minister's programme to tackle crime and it will play an important part in controlling drug abuse and the crime associated with it. Although the drug problem has developed over decades, this Government is the first to try to tackle it. Drugs have caused immeasurable pain to many people and untold difficulties for families, communities and the State. The drugs problem has been allowed to develop over a number of years and it must be tackled.

A large part of the increase in crime over the past ten years has been drug related and if we are to tackle crime a key element is tackling drugs. The Bill will allow the State to put out of business those who permit the sale of or who sell drugs on their premises, be they entertainment or licensed premises. Nothing less is acceptable. The Bill ensures that any loopholes which might permit such persons to carry on their evil trade are eliminated.

The drug problem has caused havoc in many areas and for many individuals and their families. Tackling the problem requires a dual approach. On the one hand we must ensure that drugs are not available; that the drug traffickers do not gain from their deeds; that they are imprisoned and their assets are confiscated and that those who deal in drugs on their premises are put out of business. On the other hand it is important to educate people about drugs and the misery they cause. Many people start taking drugs out of curiosity. We must educate people that if they follow that course they will find misery for themselves and their families and destroy their lives.

It is accepted that one of the reasons for the increase in suicide rates is the drug problem. Drugs can have a devastating effect on people's lives. If people were educated about the destruction drugs cause before they take them for entertainment purposes and so on, they would think twice before going down that road. I welcome the fact that those involved in drug trafficking and those who allow it to take place on their premises will be put out of business.

I welcome this Bill which tackles the supply side of the drug industry. Far too often, we take a very negative approach to this as we feel it is hopeless. This is a big international trade out of which people make huge amounts of money. If we look at the seizures by the Criminal Assets Bureau in the short time since it was set up and the number of pending court cases, we can see that enormous amounts of money are made from this business. It is essential that we try to tackle the supply as well as the demand side.

To date, we have had to rely on local initiatives by people trying to deal with drug pushers in their areas. I am glad more clout is being given to the Garda to pursue those who run events and are in charge of venues where drugs are taken.

The regulations in the Bill are far from being too strict on licence holders. In other jurisdictions people lose their licences more easily. For example, bar owners in the US who serve or employ under age people can easily lose their licences. However, we know from surveys, which are often conducted by youth organisations, that, unfortunately, it is all too easy for those who are under age to get drink in licensed premises. Some 14 year olds have been served in licensed premises during the afternoon, and it could not be said that the premises were very crowded and that their age could easily go unnoticed.

Those with licences to sell cigarettes can also be very lax. The legislation prevents those under 18 years of age buying cigarettes. I recently said to a retailer who was selling cigarettes to a child beside me that it was against the law, to which he replied that he knew her mother. I said I did not care if he knew the entire family it was still against the law. This happens far too easily. People should remember that licences are a great privilege and that, as the Minister of State said, no one has any right to them under the Constitution.

I welcome the extension of the definition of "place" in the Bill. This has caused many problems in the past because raves often take place in out of the way places. As the Minister of State said, such unlicensed dances are often held in unenclosed places and it has been extremely difficult for the Garda to deal with them. I like the imaginative effort to take away the music because if there is no music the dance cannot proceed.

I commend the Bill to the House. It is a good initiative in tackling the supply side of the drug industry.

The Minister of State pointed out that the Bill is very much an anti-drug measure. I agree with him when he spoke of the drugs trade as a vile trade. All fair thinking people should be concerned at the damage that is being inflicted by drugs on young people.

I must declare an interest in aspects of this legislation. I am a publican and am nominated by the Vintners' Federation of Ireland. A couple of weeks ago I attended the annual general meeting of the organisation in Galway. Part of the meeting consisted of a workshop on drugs. It was attended by approximately 400 delegates and high ranking officers of the Garda Síochána, including high ranking members of the Garda Drug Squad. It was an extraordinary experience for some of the delegates to see the type of material and drugs that are in circulation.

I may be old fashioned and innocent in this area. My only visual experience of drugs was television pictures on RTÉ showing syringe injections into arms or material being heated on spoons placed over burning candles. However, at the conference workshop I was shown drugs I did not recognise, including Ecstasy tablets. There is a lack of knowledge of the drug scene, including what drugs look like, among the vast majority of people.

The fact that this workshop constituted a part of the Vintners' Federation of Ireland annual general meeting is an expression of the attitude of the vast majority of the members of the vintners' trade to the drugs scene. It is also evidence of their willingness, and the willingness of many publicans, to extend full co-operation to the Garda Síochána and other drug enforcement agencies and to support whatever steps that may be necessary to combat this trade.

There are 10,000 publicans throughout the country and the Minister of State and the House can rest assured of our total opposition to anything that will encourage or assist the drugs trade. Our co-operation in dealing with it, in so far as it is within our powers, will be readily forthcoming. I recognise that given the numbers operating within the vintners' trade, there will always be a few black sheep. However, the organisation to which I belong will not tolerate them if they are identified.

To encourage a continuation of this attitude, I hope the enforcement agency will recognise the curse that drugs represent to society. If the authorities know of drugs activities, they should concentrate on stamping them out rather than stopping people coming from their local having consumed three pints. Such an attitude can undermine co-operation and confidence and I hope that will be borne in mind. We all support the elimination of drugs. If the centres where drugs are available and are given to young people are known then all resources should be used to deal with that.

When first initiated, sections 2, 17 and 18 were of considerable concern to members of the licensed trade. It is possible to visualise circumstances in which drugs could be passed in a premises without the owner's knowledge. Senator Lanigan referred to this in his contribution. The Bill has been amended and those concerns have been mitigated.

The gardaí will issue warnings to the owner of a premises where they know there is drug dealing. The court must be satisfied before a licence is forfeited or revoked that the owner or the licensee had knowledge of what was going on and that knowledge was reasonable in the circumstances. That is important. There is a further requirement that four weeks' notice must be given from the time the gardaí warn the licensee until the procedure is in place to revoke the licence.

These steps have gone a long way towards alleviating the fears of certain of my colleagues. In view of events in the Lower House in the past hour or so it is pointless to submit amendments. As somebody involved in the trade, there is a serious obligation on members of the trade, and more particularly on the organisations who represent them to ensure the risks are known.

I can visualise two sets of circumstances in which a licence could be forfeited. There may be a case where, for example, an owner has leased his premises and drug dealing is carried on without his knowledge. People who lease their premises must be careful when this Bill is enacted. A further case could occur where a lounge or part of a premises may be booked for a party. I would be concerned that a parent, having been to the Garda, would appear on my doorstep and say that his son or daughter received drugs on my premises. The Garda would then have to get in touch with me and give me four weeks' notice. To safeguard my livelihood it may then be necessary for me to refuse to give the use of my premises for similar parties in the future. It is important that the organisations representing the licensed trade ensure that their members are fully aware of the risks involved in such cases because there will be an entirely new position. However, I am satisfied that the safeguards included in the Bill are a reasonable attempt to deal with this area.

I support many aspects of the Bill. I focused on one element because it was important to highlight it. The vast majority of people in the trade are parents and they will exercise the same consideration and supervision towards another person's child as they would towards their own children. However, the trade will be in the front line after the passage of the Bill and it should recognise that fact. I assure the Minister that my colleagues fully support any measure designed to combat the drugs menace.

I welcome the Bill. As Senator Howard said, the purpose of the Bill is to combat drugs. We have come a long way from the simple life when people danced at the cross-roads. My generation now lives in a different world from the one in which we grew up. We are faced with things which are alien to us, our families and our culture. Drugs are the root of all evil because they lead to crime. Drug abusers need money and the easiest way to get it is to break the law. It is a terrible problem.

Senator Howard mentioned licensed premises but the legislation also covers rave parties which are sometimes held in derelict buildings. I have never seen one but I have read about them. People get completely out of control after taking Ecstasy tablets. We must be vigilant about this problem.

It is a mystery how so many drugs come into the country. I understand they are brought in by boats and aeroplanes, but there should be better facilities to identify the people who bring them in. However, a huge amount of drugs has been seized in recent years and the laws which were introduced to seize drug barons' money and property are welcome.

The tourism trade is beginning to cause concern and we must be vigilant about it. Wonderful people visit this country; but when a large number of tourists travel here, others who are unwelcome also come. They travel incognito with tourists. Young people must be careful because they are vulnerable.

Gardaí have also taken action against beach parties which take place in good weather. We should be grateful for the bad weather because it prevents many parties from taking place. In my county last year people were drowned after such parties.

The Gaelic Athletic Association is involved in the fight against drugs. It has supporters in every parish and if it takes a strong stand against drugs, its voice will be heard. We are the guardians of the country which we must protect for the next generation. We should issue warnings to young people that they must act responsibly because their future is at stake. If they abuse themselves and our laws, they are heading down the wrong road.

This Bill takes a practical approach to addressing the supply of drugs in our society. However, it is limited in terms of what it hopes to achieve. We have introduced other legislation which tackles this issue in different ways.

This licensing procedure is a practical step because it places an onus on licence holders to ensure their premises are not used for the sale, supply or distribution of drugs. Young people in towns and villages know where drugs are sold. We, as legislators, must address that problem. We recently introduced legislation which allows the gardaí to enter licensed premises in civilian clothing. This will help the gardaí to detect drug dealing. This Bill allows them to enter unlicensed premises where raves are taking place. The holder of an intoxicating liquor licence, a public dance licence or a public music and singing licence will be disqualified from holding such a licence again if they are convicted of an offence under this legislation. This Bill places a greater onus on licence holders than before to ensure their premises are not used for drug dealing.

I appreciate Senator Howard's concerns that innocent licence holders do not know what is happening in the toilets or the nooks and crannies of a lounge or disco. Having said that, the Bill makes it clear that the onus is on the licence holder to be ever vigilant. We must welcome that. There are checks and balances in the Bill in terms of the required notice which must be given to licence holders. I understand the Garda will use a warning system to ensure that licence holders receive some notification as to what is happening on their premises, if they are unaware of it.

Section 21 ensures that a licence cannot simply be held by one person and used by another person for gain in terms of supplying drugs. That is a practical measure. The provisions outlined in the Bill to tackle raves are very welcome. Some Senators spoke about the possibility of having drug free raves but that would be impossible. The whole idea of raves is that they aid the effect of drugs on the young people taking them through music and psychedelic lights which would "do one's head in" so to speak. I have not attended a rave but I have been at discos where rave music is played and it would give anyone a headache without using drugs at all.

It is very important that the Garda receive all the help it can get in tackling that issue. A rave can take place in woods, on beaches, in derelict houses, etc. It is important that the Garda be given the power to stop people going to these kinds of parties and to seize equipment that might be used for them. I welcome the Bill in terms of its effectiveness in tackling this issue. The Bill goes hand in hand with the other programme of legislation introduced to tackle drugs through other measures.

I am still a Minister, though no longer a Deputy, but I hope that will only be for a short time. I thank the Senators who contributed to the debate on the Bill; it is a tough Bill but I make no apology for that. It is tough because it deals with a serious problem — the drug problem — which is high on the Government's list of priorities. Among other matters, the Bill deals with a particularly serious manifestation of the drug problem in relation to the use and availability of drugs in places of public resort. These places which are usually crowded, often with young people who may be impressionable and vulnerable, afford dealers cover for their illegal activities.

The measures provided for in the Bill are additional to the measures already in place to deal with matters related to drugs offences, a number of which were introduced over the past year. I want to allay some of the fears which may be generated by the Bill and which were referred to by Senator Howard in particular. Though the measures in the Bill are tough, their sole target is unscrupulous individuals who are attempting to turn our children into addicts and destroy their lives. The law abiding licensee or owner of a licensed premises has nothing to fear if they stay clear of involvement in drugs and maintain a clean house.

Senator Lanigan referred to publicans who want to run legitimate businesses. Publicans and other business people have nothing to fear from this legislation if they co-operate with the Garda in trying to rid their premises of drugs. The Senator also referred to the need to educate young people about the perils of drug abuse. I agree that the fight against drug abuse must be fought on many fronts. This Bill represents just one way of dealing with the problem but it is not the only way.

Senator Lanigan suggested that rogue elements in the licensing business should be put out of business and that is exactly what this Bill sets out to do. The Senator also said he would like to see drug free raves. While all persons attending raves do not take Ecstasy, drug abuse does occur at all raves and the two activities appear to be inseparable. If we can eliminate drugs from these raves, the way will be open for young people to enjoy themselves through other activities. I do not think the rave culture would continue without drugs.

I am a member of the Taoiseach's committee on drugs which is composed of Ministers of State from Departments directly involved in the fight against drugs. This Bill is but one aspect of a multi-faceted approach which includes education.

Senator Henry welcomed the definition of place which will make it easier for the Garda to exercise control, ensure people do not get to such places and detect where raves are being held.

Senator Howard declared his interest as a publican and representative of publicans. He referred to the annual conference of the Vintners' Federation of Ireland and the workshop on drugs. I commend the federation on its initiative. The way to deal with drug abuse on licensed premises is through co-operation between its members and the Garda and the Bill allows for such co-operation through the warning measures set out in sections 4 and 18.

The Senator said there were some black sheep in every organisation and that is true, and one will find a few in an organisation with 10,000 members. However, the Senator emphasised there would be no tolerance towards such people among other members of the organisation and I accept this. I also thank the Senator for saying and agree with him that the amendments have gone a long way towards alleviating fears.

I am glad Senator Fitzgerald welcomed the Bill. He made a valid point about the role of the GAA. Such organisations can make a valuable contribution towards explaining to young people that drugs can ruin their lives. As a member of the GAA I welcome the Senator's remarks.

I appreciate Senator Gallagher's welcome for the Bill and the valid points she raised and I extend that appreciation to other Members. On occasion tough measures are not universally welcomed, but the welcome this measure has received is an indication of the detestation of drug traffic among Senators.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Now.

Agreed to take remaining Stages now.

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