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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Nov 1997

Vol. 152 No. 13

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is items 1 to 7, inclusive, and items 9 to 14, inclusive, without debate. Item 8 is not being moved. Second Stage of item 15, the Children Bill, 1997, is to conclude today. Item 16 will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. The contribution of principal spokespersons on Second Stage of item 15 should not exceed 20 minutes and 15 minutes for all other Senators.

The Order of Business is agreed. However, I do not like the practice of taking all Stages of a Bill in the same week. There should be at least a week's interval between Second and remaining Stages. This is fairer to the spokespersons involved and it also gives more time for reflection on points made on Second Stage before Committee Stage. I do not object to the arrangements this week but I would be happier if, in future, there is some space between various Stages. Do I understand the Leader correctly that the Second Stage debate this evening is open ended and will not conclude until all speakers have contributed? If that is the case, I am happy.

I am very happy with the proposals regarding the motions for committees. They represent a significant improvement on what operated until now as they are more focused. There is a greater opportunity for Senators to participate in committees because of these proposals.

Will the Leader arrange a debate soon on crowd safety and control at major public functions? This arises specifically out of last Saturday's rugby international at Lansdowne Road. Between 2.30 p.m. and 2.45 p.m. that day a crowd disaster was waiting to happen. Large numbers of people were being funnelled into Lansdowne Road, the DART gates were closed and new barriers were erected at the Shelbourne Road intersection. I experienced at first hand this frightening and dangerous situation. It only required a sudden shower of rain which would have caused those at the back to push forward, or for exuberant people to push forward, and a major disaster would have happened. The Irish Rugby Football Union is exhibiting extraordinary complacency and smugness in the face of many complaints about this. I would like to see a statement from the Garda on this situation as it will be too late when a major disaster happens. This situation lasted about 45 minutes and it seems extraordinary that the DART gates are closed creating a cul-de-sac in Lansdowne Road. People are funnelled in and there is no way to stop them at the Shelbourne Road side.

With regard to the conclusion of Second Stage of the Children Bill, will the Leader reassure the House that this Bill will not be guillotined and that all speakers will be facilitated? If there is not enough time today, there should be time for them tomorrow. That is the understanding under which I consent to this item, and Members are concerned about it.

It is important to note the element for substitution in the new committees. This will allow greater participation to Members. Government spokespersons have commented in the last week on literacy. This is a hugely important issue and it should be addressed properly, scientifically and determinedly. If we are to sell this country as highly educated, we cannot have reports being issued which state that people cannot read. The Government should take this in hand. As a representative of teachers, I would like this to be debated fully and properly.

I agree with the previous speakers about the Children Bill. There should be no guillotine on this important legislation. If necessary the debate should be rescheduled for tomorrow or another date.

I am happy with the element for substitution on the new committees, but I am unhappy with the proposals regarding the numbers. Effectively participation by Labour Senators in any of the 12 standing committees is ruled out. That seems to be a fait accompli.

Will the Leader inform the House of the Government's proposals in response to the Judge Kelly's decision in the High Court on Monday relating to Zoe Developments? They were described as "recidivist criminals" because of substantial and serious breaches of health and safety regulations. That was not the first time those breaches occurred. Perhaps the Government could look into what was considered in Britain following the Zeebrugge disaster — the offence of corporate homicide. The directors of a company which is guilty of serious offences could be charged with manslaughter. The Leader should respond to this matter as it is known all over Dublin that these builders have been breaching health and safety regulations over the years.

Will the Leader consider a debate on banking profits? Bank of Ireland's interim report shows a 30 per cent increase with a huge profit of £500 million for the year, which I am sure will be about half the amount the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, will have to distribute in the not too distant future. It is an area at which we should look because of the strict regulations in the PCW and Partnership 2000 about what workers may earn and the fact the banks have restructured employees' salaries so they earn less.

Does the Leader propose to respond to the report of the Court of Auditors which found that, in many cases, the farming community has been paid twice in respect of funds from Europe? We must ensure one section of the community does not perceive another to be getting funds from Europe which have not been properly earned.

Far be it from me to attack the media, but I express disappointment that as far as I could discern there was no report on Seanad Éireann in any of the print media on the day we discussed the Europol Bill, 1997, which was extremely important. Issues were teased out in this House which had not been in the other House. I regret the people were deprived of the opportunity to see issues of fundamental human rights being examined by this House.

I support what my colleagues said about the various committees. I would like to inform the House about a difficulty last week when the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs decided to hold its meeting to coincide with the Order of Business in this House. I wrote a strong note to the committee indicating that I regarded this as insulting and that my colleagues would wish this to be forcibly drawn to its attention. I received an undertaking that it will not meet at a time which coincides with the Order of Business in this House.

Could we have a debate on foreign affairs as a matter of urgency, concentrating specifically on developments in the Middle East and with particular reference to the massacre at Luxor? This is an extremely dangerous development which needs to be debated. It would be appropriate for some Members to issue a call to leaders of the Islamic faith to comment on this issue because that great religion, which has added enormously to the diversity of man's cultural tradition, is being grossly betrayed by the silence in front of these appalling atrocities. It is almost as if they are being encouraged.

Closer to home, when may we have a debate on the North of Ireland? It is important we have a debate at this juncture, particularly in the light of comments made in The Irish Times by Jim Cusack, the well informed security correspondent, who indicated that members of the IRA do not like the cease-fire because they are being asked to produce their licences and car insurance. It is a pity about them. They will have to learn to behave as ordinary citizens. I found it chilling that a Sinn Féin spokesman said that if they do not get what they want, they can go back to what they know best, and we know what that is. This House should send a clear message to those people that such behaviour is not tolerable.

Will the House consider debating conditions in St. Ita's Hospital, Portrane, in particular taking account of the 1995 report on mental hospitals? It is a reproach to all of us that this matter has not been more substantially ventilated. It is extraordinary that we gloat and boast about our plans to build 1,000 new prison places and put somebody in jail for a minimum of ten years at a cost of £0.5 million yet they cannot get a lavatory seat or a light bulb in St. Ita's, Portrane. This House owes it to itself to discuss this matter.

We cannot have a debate on the matter now. I ask Members to confine themselves to questions to the Leader.

A few weeks ago I asked for a debate on unauthorised television and telephone masts and pylons. Since then, without appointing myself as a concerned person, I have received numerous letters from around the country encouraging me to raise the question again. I ask the Leader to provide time to debate this national problem. There is no forum other than the Dáil and the Seanad where the voices of those who represent different aspects of problems in rural Ireland can be heard. This is driving a horse and cart through the planning regulations——

The Senator has made a good case for a debate on this matter.

I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate on the funding and future of local authorities. I do not want their role diminished to the point where they are totally ineffective organisations and are responsible for almost nothing. This has happened in Northern Ireland. It is not the way to exercise and administer democracy and I hope it never happens here. I ask the Leader to provide time to discuss these issues so the House can make a useful contribution.

I wish to bring to the attention of the Leader the appalling tragedy in North Korea. This is an appropriate time to ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come to the House to make a statement or to have a debate on the matter. Given our dreadful history it is also appropriate he make a statement on the 150th anniversary of the Famine.

Mr. J. Hayes

I renew my call to the Leader for the Minister for Agriculture and Food to come to this House for a full debate. That was never more important or necessary than now, with the announcement last week of a cut of £35 million in the Agriculture Estimates, a nine per cent reduction. This sent shivers down the spine of many people in the farming community. Why is the Minister for Agriculture and Food shying away from coming to the House to address this important issue?

I ask the Leader for a debate on juries and the legal system in view of the fact that, on Liveline last week, a juror spoke of how worried she was because she contributed to putting someone behind bars for nine years, although she felt at the time, and still feels, he was innocent. The jury was bullied by one person who had her mind made up before the case started. This is serious. It is wrong that people lock themselves in a room and we do not know what goes on when they are reaching a decision. There should be an arbitrator to observe what is going on and to see justice is done.

The Senator is debating the merit of the issue which is not allowed on the Order of Business.

I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate on evictions. In business there is an early warning system to avert problems. A similar system should apply to evictions; it should be partially funded by the State and partially by building societies and banks who are making such large amounts of money.

Good idea.

It is a scandalous that a widow was thrown out of her home a few weeks before Christmas and that her child had to be accompanied into the house by a garda so that she could remove some of her belongings while the sheriff's men were there. The sanctity of the home has been invaded. It is scandalous that a building society, which is making millions of pounds, cannot solve those problems. We should have an ombudsman, or some other system, to see if such problems could be solved. That is a scandal in this day and age.

Last Wednesday I raised the issue of EU funding post-1999. Over the past few years EU funding has contributed greatly to our economic growth and development. Nevertheless, there is still a range of serious social and economic problems in Dublin and other urban areas. It is imperative that the Government prepares a programme for the post-1999 situation. The timing is critical. I ask the Leader to allow time to debate this very important issue.

Will the Leader discuss with the Minister for Health and Children the possibility of State assistance for people who have decided to institute proceedings against the tobacco industry, in line with the cases brought in the United States? Tobacco consumption causes the death of about 6,000 people in Ireland annually; it is a huge cost to the economy and the Health Vote. A precedent has been established in that the Government has decided, under protest, to assist the people in County Louth who allege the practices of British Nuclear Fuels are causing a health hazard. The people who have issued proceedings in the High Court against the tobacco industry are not seeking 100 per cent funding but for the State to recognise what they are doing and to provide some assistance.

I support the call for a debate on agriculture. However, I must correct the erroneous statement that the Estimates are reduced from last year's figure. That is not the case. The amount of the Estimates has increased. The Minister is introducing in the Dáil today a Supplementary Estimate for £65 million. The REP scheme——

That is for 1996.

Payments under the European environmental protection measures are to be significantly increased. The one area in which there has been a reduction is headage payments, which is due to the fact those payments were brought forward and front loaded.

Why does the Minister not say that in this House?

In the Supplementary Estimates to be introduced today £9 million must be taken out of next year's spending to pay for what was brought forward earlier in the year. It is important to clarify those matters, which is one of the reasons I would welcome a debate.

As regards the wrong payments to farmers, it must be pointed out that those payments were made due to an agreement reached under the MacSharry CAP reform proposals. It was not the recipients' fault that the price predictions on which those compensations were based turned out to be erroneous.

Will they be giving the money back?

Certainly not, nor would the Senator.

It is not proper to take a double payment.

The Senator must be allowed make his contribution without interruption.

I support what Senator Norris said about the atrocity in Luxor. Perhaps the House could debate the issue. It may be that what happened is more to do with very severe exclusion under the regime than any manifestation of religious extremism, although it is connected to such extremism.

I thought that when I returned to the House after my brief absence voting rights in Seanad elections would have been extended to graduates of the University of Limerick. I will continue to raise this issue until the democratic rights of such graduates and graduates of other appropriate third level institutions are adhered to.

Can I join in Senator Farrell's call regarding the ability of financial institutions to evict people when, in some instances, large amounts of money has been paid in interest. It would seem that the law is weighted heavily in favour of the financial institutions. I ask for amending legislation, in this area. The consumer needs to be protected against the vested interests of big financial business.

I also ask the Leader of the House for a debate on the future of Ireland vis-à-vis Europe, particularly with regard to our status for financial support. Up to now we have enjoyed Objective 1 status. That has been very helpful to the farming sector and others. There is income convergence in some sections of the population but that is not the case in the west or in parts of the midlands. Convergence of income has not taken place and many farmers are leaving the land.

The Senator is debating the substance of the matter on which he is seeking a debate.

I am asking the Leader for a debate on the position of Ireland in the new structures that will be set down by the EU vis-à-vis status for funding. It is important that as much of Ireland as possible retains Objective 1 status. Otherwise we will have nothing but forestry and tourist reservations in the west. Now, two years before these decisions are taken, is the time to debate this matter and this House is a suitable vehicle for that debate.

Would the Leader ask the Minister for Health and Children, in light of his remarks in the Dáil yesterday, to clarify the legal position regarding the role of a health board when it is acting in loco parentis for a raped, brutalised and pregnant child particularly in the light of the right to travel which is enunciated in an amendment to the Constitution and passed by a large majority of the electorate a number of years ago. Does the Minister plan to bring in legislation to solve the serious legal and constitutional position for Irish women? Does he consider it tolerable that a 13 year old child and her parents should be placed in the position in which they now are with regard to this tragic, complex and legal reality? Does he propose to deal with this in a legislative context? Does he consider it appropriate that this complex situation must, once again, be referred to the courts for a decision?

I join with my friend and colleague, Senator McGowan, who asked the Leader if he would consider a debate on the ever increasing concerns that are being expressed across the country at the proliferation of mobile telephone masts. This has become a national issue. I attended a meeting of very angry mothers, primarily, in Carrick-on-Shannon last Monday. There is a similar group in the Cathaoirleach's county, just across the river, objecting to the location of masts on ESB and Garda property which is, effectively, within the State's ownership. We are dealing with somewhat irrational but very genuinely held fears about the health hazard posed by these masts when they are located beside educational establishments. In the absence of a debate I ask the Leader if the Government would consider following the lead of New Zealand which has banned such masts from sites adjacent to educational facilities and California, the home of the micro chip, which has banned corporate institutions from locating such masts beside educational facilities, and several local authorities in Scotland which have also followed the lead of California and New Zealand.

There may be irrational fears and the case may be unproven, but it is difficult to reassure mothers of children attending schools that microwaves from these masts do not have a potential health hazard. As a parent I would not wish to dissuade people from their genuine fears on this matter. It is a national issue requiring debate.

Will the Leader arrange for the Minister for Public Enterprise to attend the House to debate the recent train derailments in Counties Kerry and Roscommon and the condition of the national rail stock? I requested a debate when Deputy Dukes was Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.

The derailment in County Kerry is the third such accident on the stretch of rail track between Killarney and Tralee. The seriousness of the matter was pointed out to the then Minister. It is fortunate that there were no fatalities.

The previous Minister emphasised that most of the designated EU funding for railways would be spent on the Dublin region.

That is not true.

The people of rural Ireland also have a right to proper rail stock. This important issue warrants an immediate debate with the Minister present.

There should be a debate on fluctuating petrol and diesel prices. A well located petrol station can charge exorbitant prices. There can be a difference of up to 30p per gallon between one station and another, which is morally wrong. There would be uproar if the budget imposed a price increase of 4p on a gallon of petrol or diesel. There should be uniformity in pricing among all stations.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to publish the interim report of the north County Mayo enterprise initiative which she established following the closure of the Asahi complex in Killala? The first of the workers are being laid off and between now and Christmas over 300 workers will be laid off. Asahi was the anchor for local industry in north County Mayo. The initiative was established by the Minister to find an alternative source of industry. It is imperative that she make an announcement on the progress made by the task force.

The format of the Order of Business for this week is similar to the format which I complained about last week. What is at issue is not the length of time we give to legislation, such as the Children Bill, but the length of time between the Stages. Second Stage of this Bill will be taken today with Committee and Remaining Stages to be taken tomorrow. The Government is telling the House it does not have the time to consider the views of Senators.

We are not using the House correctly. The Leader has outlined the legislation to be introduced. It should be possible to introduce two Bills in one week and to ensure that no Bills are passed in any given week. We should use the House to initiate Bills, as happened in the past. We are not using this House correctly.

Senator O'Toole referred to the issue of literacy. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, spoke last week of the problem of literacy in adults and children and the possibility of testing children before they graduate from primary to secondary school. Senator O'Toole answered that in the newspapers. It is the sort of topic we could debate here and I support Senator O'Toole's call for such a debate.

I congratulate and welcome the immediate response last week of the Minister for Education and Science to requests I and a number of others made for funding to be made available for technical education. When a Minister responds in such a prompt fashion, it is obvious he recognises the problem.

I have visited Clonmel regularly in the past three years and flooding seems to be a frequent occurrence there.

It happens far too often.

The Office of Public Works published a preliminary report this week on its responsibilities in this area. Will the Leader of the House urge the Minister responsible for the Office of Public Works to ensure it addresses this problem now and not allow it to continue? It has a responsibility in this area.

A situation has arisen in Dublin because of the lack of co-operation between and foot dragging of the three children's hospitals over who should deliver childcare medical services. I ask that heads be banged together because this is a serious matter. One of the inner city children's hospitals will close next year leaving only one in the area, Temple Street. Planning should have begun some years ago to take cognisance of this fact but nothing has happened. This is not the fault of the Department of Health and Children but is due to the lack of co-operation between the three children's hospitals in Dublin.

The Cathaoirleach will be pleased to hear I do not want heads banged together and neither do I want a debate. We have had requests for about 12 already today. The Minister for Agriculture and Food should provide funding to help South Dublin County Council implement the Control of Horses Act. Two weeks ago a tragic accident nearly occurred, and last weekend the M50 and Clondalkin village were again visited by 20 ownerless horses. Another tragedy is waiting to happen. The council staff dealing with this problem are being attacked and need assistance from the Garda. They need extra funding from the Department to try to solve this problem which has escalated beyond belief and will remain with us until the matter is properly handled.

That is one matter among many which might more appropriately be raised on the Adjournment than on the Order of Business. The Chair would try to facilitate such matters to be raised on the Adjournment if they were submitted.

We welcome the recent job announcements by IDA Ireland, especially as they are spread throughout the country. Will the Leader ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, if there is a change in Forbairt's policy on underpinning the economies of rural areas? Will he also ask her to explain to the House if there is a new emphasis and direction to the underpinning of the economy of the west and to the focus of its industrial development?

The Leader was asked to raise the rape case with the Minister for Health and Children. During the past few days I have found it reprehensible that politicians have rushed to the media in what, in many instances, is a subtle attempt to thwart the will of the people by exploiting a terrible personal tragedy for the family. Any request to the Minister should be to mobilise the agencies of the State in order to provide the necessary support and assistance to the child and her family in their present plight.

We should call on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to ensure that the full rigours of the law are applied to the person responsible for the crime.

It is not in order to debate matters such as this on the Order of Business. Matters raised on the Order of Business must be relevant to the business of the Seanad. Debating the substance or merits of issues is not in order.

I apologise, a Chathaoirligh, that was not my intention. However, I have been disturbed that some of the recent comments have shown disregard for the family. The debate on Northern Ireland should be balanced. Some Members have requested that it should not be one-sided and should include institutionalised violence and crimes committed by British forces. It should also include the recent serious bombing attempt in Dundalk.

That was a firework. The Senator should be serious.

We should have a debate on flooding. Senator Quinn mentioned Clonmel but many other towns also suffer from this problem. There are many State agencies with responsibility in this area and they should come together to implement a single issue programme to overcome the problem.

We have recently seen headlines concerning the "greening" of our waterways. The over fertilisation of farms and the overuse of phosphates, while not the only cause, are leading to difficulties with clean water and the greening of waterways. In the past, State agencies encouraged the continuous use of phosphates and fertilisers which may now be causing the problem. If we are to overcome this problem we should have a debate on the matter.

I join Senator Haughey in requesting a debate on the appalling famine in Korea. Such a debate would bring great credit on this House as it would demonstrate a willingness to overcome what may be perceived as a political or ideological aversion to highlighting such humanitarian problems.

In recent years I accepted invitations to visit North and South Korea. I am keenly aware of the need to harmonise relationships between the two parts of this divided country. I also realise that a huge challenge faces North Korea in endeavouring to adapt to changing world structures and realignments. It behoves Ireland, which suffered a genocidal famine which was not of our making, to respond in a humanitarian manner. We were misrepresented at that time and still are in regards to that Famine and I request the Leader to discuss this issue with the Minister for Foreign Affairs as a matter of urgency.

In view of the protest that took place outside the Houses of the Oireachtas today regarding community television deflectors in a rural constituency, I request the Leader to ask the Minister for Public Enterprise for an update on the position regarding licensing television deflectors. The Minister is dragging her heels on this matter.

Regarding the points raised by Senators Manning, O'Toole and Costello relating to the Children Bill, 1997, the debate on Second Stage will resume after Private Members' business tonight and is open ended.

I am very pleased with the welcome Opposition parties have given the establishment of the new committees and I wish them well. Senator Manning expressed concern about what happened last week at Lansdowne Road and the need for a debate on crowd control in general. It is an important issue, particularly with so many young people congregating in places of entertainment — although there were also many middle aged and elderly people at the rugby match at Lansdowne Road — and I will be happy to arrange for a debate next week. The authorities at Croke Park may be able to help the Rugby Union of Ireland in relation to some of these matters.

Senators O'Toole and Quinn want a debate on literacy and I will arrange that. Senator Costello raised his serious concern about the construction industry, particularly one company. This could be raised in contributions to the debate on Second Stage of the Private Members' Bill, thereby getting a response of the Minister.

Senator Costello raised the need for a debate on banking; I have no problem arranging that. Senator Norris raised the issue of media coverage of proceedings of the House. Many Members have discussed this over the years and we might raise it at the next party leaders' meeting to see how it can be progressed. Senator Norris is correct is speaking about the poor coverage of the Europol Bill debate in the House. RTÉ has been covering the Houses of the Oireachtas fairly well over the last number of weeks, but we have a problem with the print media which will have to be addressed.

Senators Norris, Walsh and Dardis called for a debate on Northern Ireland; we will have such a debate within the next three or four weeks. I was trying to arrange a debate that would facilitate all the requests which have been made over the last number of weeks. I expect to come to the House with something definite over the next two weeks.

Senator Norris raised the issue of St. Ita's Hospital in Portrane. I understand that the 1995 mental health report was not discussed in either House. I want to change this and will allow time for discussion of the report within three weeks. It is a matter of great concern and I know many Members want to contribute.

Senators McGowan, Mooney and Burke called for an urgent debate on the serious position many families, communities and parishes find themselves in in relation to the controversy over mobile telephone masts. The leaders of the groups in the House should get together and arrange a discussion on the matter during Private Members' business as a matter of urgency. If a consensus cannot be reached, it can be discussed during the next Fianna Fáil Private Members' time. Senator Haughey and Senator Ó Murchú sought a debate on the famine in North Korea. Senator Fitzgerald and I have been in contact with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Andrews, and he has agreed to come to the House on Thursday afternoon next week for an open ended discussion on foreign affairs.

Senator Hayes and Senator Dardis asked for a debate on agriculture. I have no problem with that proposal particularly at this time and I will try to arrange it during the current session. Senator Farrell and Senator Finneran suggested a debate on the jury system. That might be a suitable topic for discussion in Private Members' time. There will not be sufficient time to hold debates on all the subjects suggested by Senators so there will have to be a meeting between the leaders of the various groups to see how the demands of Members can be facilitated.

Senator Farrell and Senator Finneran also called for a debate on evictions. I have no difficulty with the proposal but the problem will be allocating time for it. Senator Doyle made a worthy suggestion last week and I apologise for not replying to it then. I would like to facilitate his and Senator Finneran's suggestion of a debate on EU funding after 1999. Everybody is anxious to find out what Ireland's position will be. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, who secured £8.4 billion in EU funding deserves our congratulations. Many Members of the Opposition were sceptical about his claims on his return from the Summit in Edinburgh but those claims were realised and he deserves our congratulations for his efforts in that regard. There will be a day long debate on EU funding at the earliest opportunity. Senators will be given advance notice of the date because it is one of most important topics for debate suggested today.

Senator Connor suggested a debate on the tobacco industry. Perhaps Senator Manning would facilitate such a debate during Fine Gael Private Members' time because there will not be sufficient time during this session.

The Senator is gasping for a debate.

Senator Jackman asked for a debate on the voting rights of third level institutions. I doubt that any Member would object to such a debate and I will allocate time for it. Senator O'Meara and Senator Walsh called for support for the 13 year old girl and her family in view of the tragic circumstances in which they find themselves. The House will be aware that the Minister yesterday announced his intention to publish a Green Paper which will be referred to the constitutional review group. We should await the publication of that paper before deciding what we should do in that regard.

Senator Dan Kiely made a lengthy contribution about the serious problems with the Tralee-Killarney rail line. A similar problem arose last week with the rail line in the Cathaoirleach's constituency. The Minister for Public Enterprise has sought an urgent report on the matter and I will delighted to allocate time for a relevant debate at the earliest opportunity.

Senator Caffrey and Senator Chambers asked for a debate on trade and employment and the preliminary interim report on north Mayo. The Minister will be in the House in the future to deal with legislation but, in the meantime, I will try to get further information on the matter for the Senators. I will see what information I can acquire for the two Senators. Senators Quinn and Callanan are seeking a debate on the serious flooding which occurs in certain parts of Ireland every winter and spring. If we can find time to debate the Office of Public Works report on flooding we will do so in the next session. Senator Fitzpatrick is seeking a debate on the future of children's hospitals in Dublin and drawing up a co-ordinated plan. I would be delighted to afford the Senator time for this and will speak to the Minister for Health and Children in relation to it.

Order of Business agreed to.
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