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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 1997

Vol. 152 No. 17

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is items 1 and 7, motion 10; the proceedings on Second Stage of item 1, if not previously concluded, to resume at 8 p.m. The contribution on item 1 will not exceed 20 minutes in the case of spokespersons and 15 minutes in the case of all other Senators. Business is to interrupted from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. Item 7, motion 10, is to be taken at 6 p.m.

Perhaps the Leader would clarify the Order of Business. He said items 1 and 7. Is that correct?

That is correct. Item 7, motion 10.

Thank you. I compliment the Leader on the function he organised yesterday to honour former Cathaoirligh. It was extremely well done. It was much appreciated by all of the former Cathaoirligh and their families who were present and a great deal of credit is due to you and your predecessor for putting it in train.

I want to raise with the Leader this morning's statement on refugee policy by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I realise it is a very complex issue but there was a certain harshness and bureaucratic neatness about the solution being offered this morning. Rather than rush to judgment, will the Leader make time available in the House to have a full discussion on this issue?

Finally, will the Leader indicate in some detail the proposed programme of business for the remainder of the session?

It is crucially important to know the Leader's intentions for sitting days, particularly next week. We need a plan to deal with the legislation to be initiated in this House. I have argued with the Leader, in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and elsewhere, that more legislation should be first discussed here and he has done a good job in arranging the initiation of a number of Bills. This leads to a different type of debate which is important.

On a related matter, I have raised with the Chairman of the all-party committee on the Constitution the membership and structure of that committee. It is unacceptable that Independents are not represented and there seems no reason for it. We wish that matter to be clarified. The Independent Group has already raised the matter with the Department of the Taoiseach. We want a clear outline of the position and ask for the Leader's support in ensuring our representation.

I previously asked for a debate on literacy, which is an important issue at a time when we are trying to promote ourselves abroad. I accept the debate will not happen before Christmas but could I have a commitment that it will be taken on the first sitting day after the recess?

I support Senator O'Toole's last request. The Labour Party has put down a motion on that subject; perhaps we can take it early in the next session.

I propose an amendment to the Order of Business: "That item 5 be taken before item 1". Item 5 is the Protection of Workers (Shops) Bill, 1997. We are seeking leave from the House to have the Bill printed. It was debated in the Dáil earlier this year and accepted on Second Stage. While it did not pass last week, good contributions were made by all sides and it was agreed even by those who voted against the Bill that the subject deserved further examination. This House would be an ideal place for that discussion.

I second the amendment.

As the Arctic conditions hit us and our thoughts turn towards Christmas, it is most harrowing to see many people sleeping rough on our streets — they are refugees from our economy. The number of homeless seems to multiply every year. Will the Leader ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come to the House for a debate on homelessness so that the Minister can indicate what he proposes to do, by way of public and social housing policies, in the name of the Irish taxpayer to confront successfully this problem? The position is not acceptable.

We are all aware of the outrageous behaviour in Wales. Our farmers and beef industry work hard and do not need to engage in illegal activities to stay in business and prove their worth. I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Agriculture and Food to come to the House as a matter of urgency to make a statement on this matter. Engaging in similar behaviour or boycotting British goods will not get us anywhere.

Senator Haughey has made his point and has requested a debate. I cannot allow him any more latitude on the Order of Business.

Sorry. Will the Leader ask the Minister to come to the House urgently?

Will you, Sir, and the Leader take up the issue of refugees which Senator Manning raised? During the debate on the matter in the House last month the Minister did not even hint at the decisions which were subsequently announced, despite the fact that I asked specific questions about many of those proposals. It is profoundly offensive to this House that decisions which were about to be announced were omitted from the discussion. It shows that Minister did not take the House seriously. It was a very good debate which maintained the proper tone. Unlike certain Members of the other House, Members of this House deal with such issues with a degree of responsibility. I hope Ministers will take this House seriously in future rather than just going through the motions of speaking to us.

The issue of children's toys has been spoken about widely. This House should debate the issue before Christmas from two aspects: first, the working conditions of children who make toys in other countries and, second, the extraordinary amount of commercial pressure placed on parents through the targeting of children by advertising. Such advertising should not be allowed.

Senator O'Toole raised the issue of the committee on the Constitution. Is it appropriate for a body which has not been set up with the consent of both Houses of the Oireachtas to describe itself as an Oireachtas committee, as the committee on the Constitution does? Perhaps I am mistaken but I am not aware of any resolution passed by this House to set up such a committee. I do not understand how it can describe itself as an Oireachtas committee if it was not set up by both Houses. It would be very presumptuous if that were the case.

The Senator has made his point.

I agree with Senator Haughey's statement on the Welsh farmers' blockade but he is not going far enough. The situation has become too critical for any statement to the House by the Minister for Agriculture and Food to be sufficient. Will the Leader request the Taoiseach to intervene immediately? The situation is escalating and will worsen. I sympathise with the Welsh farmers involved but I do not agree with their course of action. At this stage only the intervention of the Taoiseach can ensure the British establishment will rigorously enforce the law. This will have very serious consequences for Ireland and free trade in Europe.

In regard to the interference with agricultural produce going through the ports of Holyhead and Fishguard, will the Leader convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs the necessity of ensuring that EU member states enforce their own laws on access, transportation and competition which are being infringed? Will he also raise with the Minister the possibility of applying mandatory sanctions and compensation at European Council level, which would specifically address the issue?

I support the calls of Senator Manning and Senator Brendan Ryan for proper behaviour by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in regard to the asylum issue. Will the Leader ask the Minister if he is happy to be an accomplice in murder, which is what will happen? Mention has been made of referring people to the first point of entry — for example, countries such as France, which happily returns refugees to Algeria on the basis that they may well be killed, but not by government forces. If we follow this policy it makes us all accomplices to murder. I strongly object to it. There is no accountability and we do not know what procedures are involved. Will the Leader require the Minister to attend the House and disclose the procedures in use for the exclusion of refugees?

I understand that the Government is experiencing difficulty in amending legislation dealing with payments to Members of the Oireachtas and political parties, despite the fact that the Independent Members of the other House have said they are not creating any difficulty. I detect a certain self interest on the part of the Government, which I would like to share. Is the Leader content that this House should have been so completely excluded from these payments for election expenses, especially in a situation where, although expenditure is necessary to get elected we are not allowed to discount it against income tax? Why does this House not stand up for itself and say that if it is appropriate to pay for elections for the Lower House it is also appropriate to pay something towards the expenses of politicians in the Upper House?

I support my Labour Party colleagues on the issue of Sunday opening. I have been frequently reminded that, under the Constitution, this is a Christian country. We are told to observe the Sabbath. It is inappropriate for large English combines to coerce Irish employees to work on Sundays.

Will the Leader convey our congratulations to the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, for the reasoned and strong position she took when an attempt was made to browbeat her by the EU Commissioner, Monika Wulf-Mathies, whose approach appeared to be that we should construct a second rate system of transport in Dublin in order simply to spend the available money? I congratulate the Minister for her honourable stance in this regard.

Will the Leader convey to the Minister for Justice the grave concern which I and other Members have regarding the horrific murder in Galway of the taxi driver, Eileen Costello O'Shaughnessy, who was only carrying out her job? It highlights the increased violence in the country against women and taxi drivers. Will the Leader ask the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to investigate a review of the taxi services, especially the safety aspect for both men and women drivers against syringe and knife attacks and even murder?

Will the Leader obtain a statement from the Taoiseach or Minister for Finance regarding the funding of the Moriarty and Flood tribunals? The Moriarty tribunal has commenced its work. What payments have been made to it since its establishment? We learnt yesterday that the Flood tribunal has not commenced work, even though its first report was due before both Houses of the Oireacthas today. When did the Attorney General make the necessary arrangements with the parties involved?

Is the Government trying to sabotage the workings of these tribunals? If so, the proceedings of both Houses of the Oireachtas regarding their establishment will be brought into disrepute. It would appear that what we learnt yesterday conflicts with statements made by the Taoiseach in this House and the other House.

Will the Leader arranged a debate on the increased amount of money being spent on advertising cigarettes? Every hospital now seeks a cancer unit, which will cost millions of pounds. There were pages of advertisements in yesterday's newspapers. We have reached a point where there is no control over cigarette advertising. I noticed a full page colour advertisement for cigarettes in yesterday's evening newspaper with a small indication at the bottom that cigarettes can kill. We must have a debate on the matter so that we may highlight the cost to the State of millions of pounds from cigarettes, a cost which far outweighs the revenue from the sale of cigarettes. It is matter that merits urgent discussion.

I second the amendment proposed by Senator Gallagher with regard to the Protection of Workers (Shops) Bill, 1997. I ask the Leader of the House to convey our concern to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform about his recent decisions which return us to the circumstances which prevailed prior to the Refugee Act when there was neither an independent assessment process nor recourse to the UNHCR. It is particularly alarming that there may be mass deportations coming up to Christmas in the 150th anniversary of the Famine. We can only imagine the situation which would have prevailed if Irish people arriving in Canada or the US at that time had been sent back because they did not conform to legislative prescriptions.

Will the Leader of the House seek a response from the Government on the recent illegal actions at Welsh ports? Irish farm produce has been dumped into the sea at Holyhead and no attempt to arrest those responsible has been made. Last night the port authorities at Fishguard allowed a group of people to inspect Irish truck drivers' documents — an illegal action. We must find out what happened because such actions could spark a range of other illegal activities against Irish farmers. We do not wish to see the Welsh and Irish farmers pitted against each other. We have sympathy for the Welsh farmers, but illegal actions will not solve their problems. The Government should urgently seek meetings with the Welsh Secretary and the British Agriculture Minister with a view to resolving the matter. The resolution lies with the British Government and the EU, not with the Irish farmers.

It is obvious that Senator Norris, with whom I agree usually, lives in the city centre. However, I live in the suburbs. I had a hospital appointment this morning at 8.15 a.m. and I left home at 7 a.m. only to arrive in Blackrock at 8.45 p.m. because I travelled through the suburbs, where Operation Freeflow is not in force. I do not like to think of the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, being bullied by anybody but I sympathise with Commissioner Wulf-Mathies——

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Will the Leader ask the Minister to come to House to explain why she has such a bias against Dublin commuters?

The Senator will be much worse off with the overground Luas system.

I never interrupt the Senator. I am sure the Cathaoirleach will defend my right to continue my question to him.

To the Leader of the House.

The Senator is out of order.

I hope the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, realises that she is doing a disservice by delaying Luas. The loss of Luas would be a blight on the Government. Will the Leader ask the Minister to come to the House to explain her actions?

I support the views expressed about the attacks on Irish food produce exports. Such tactics have been used on previous occasions in France and are part of a growing trend. However, as Europeans in a union with a common free market, it is not in the best interest of the people or country concerned. We should support the Government in trying to resolve the matter as quickly as possible before it extends to other sectors.

I previously raised the issue of jobs. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to tell the House what efforts are being made by Forbairt and IDA Ireland to provide job opportunities outside the major growth centres mentioned in the Buchanan report? What efforts in terms of direction and policy are being made to provide jobs which will sustain rural Ireland?

Will the Leader bring to the attention of the Minister for Health and Children the urgent need for an initiative to deal with the waiting list for cardiac treatment? Thousands of people are waiting many years for major surgery. Will the Leader also bring to the Minister's attention the fact that these patients could lead a full and active life after such operations? I am aware of a case in Drogheda where a woman has had sleepless nights for over a year because she is worried her daughter may not be alive in the morning. She requires an operation but it cannot be carried out because she cannot afford private fees and, as a medical card holder, she cannot get the attention she needs. This issue is extremely urgent and the Government should act immediately on this matter which is most important to thousands of people.

Regarding the unacceptable incidents in Wales in which Irish goods have been prevented from entering Great Britain through Fishguard and Holyhead, will the Leader ask the Government to bring to the British Government's attention the need to comply with the Single European Act under which goods can move freely between countries? The British Government should also be asked to enforce the law. The point was made that if such incidents occurred in Dover or Calais, the police would move quickly to ensure trucks were not held up. The same principle should apply in Holyhead and Fishguard. Another dimension is that these incidents are a symptom, however unacceptable, of what British farmers perceive as their Government's inaction in relation to BSE and the resulting collapse in farm incomes.

Regarding Senator Manning and Senator O'Toole's queries about the business of the House before Christmas, the Seanad will sit four days next week and the following week. The Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund Bill will be initiated in the House today and four other Bills will be initiated here next week. The number of Bills which will be initiated here in one week is unprecedented. It has never happened in my 16 years in the House and I understand it did not happen in the preceding years. A total of six Bills will be initiated in the Seanad, one today, four next week and another one after the Christmas recess.

I will pass on the great concerns of Senators Norris, Ryan and Manning about refugee policy to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. However, I am sure everybody was pleased about the court findings yesterday. Serious aspects would have emerged if the decision had gone another way.

We were not all pleased.

People may criticise the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform occasionally but he should take some sustenance from the court findings yesterday. It is a difficult portfolio but eight of the Bills which will come before both Houses in the near future relate to Justice.

I agree with Senator O'Toole and Senator Ryan regarding the all-party committee on the Constitution. I will use my good offices to see what can be done about their request. Senator O'Toole also requested a debate on literacy for which I will make time available during the first week of the new session.

With regard to the points raised by Senators Gallagher and Costello in respect of item No. 5 on the Order Paper, I have no objection to the Bill being printed.

Senator Quill requested a debate on homelessness with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. I will make time available for such a debate at the earliest possible opportunity.

Senators Haughey, Dardis, Tom Hayes, Jim Walsh, Costello and Chambers raised the serious situation obtaining in Welsh ports. I communicated this morning with the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Tom Kitt, who assured me that he will raise this matter at the Council of Trade Ministers of the EU later in the week. I also had discussions with the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Joe Walsh, who is seeking to meet his British counterpart, Mr. Jack Cunningham, tomorrow morning. I assure the House that everything possible is being done at Government level to resolve this serious matter. I am sure further information will become available later today.

Senator Norris asked me to congratulate the Minister for Public Enterprise in respect of LUAS, while Senator Ridge requested that she come before the House to clarify the situation in that regard. I propose to debate this issue during the next session. During the lifetime of the previous Seanad there was a lengthy debate on LUAS with the former Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Senator Avril Doyle. I was front bench spokesperson for Fianna Fáil on that occasion when approximately 25 or more Members contributed to the debate. I suggest that if Senator Ridge familiarises herself with those proceedings, we can take the matter from there.

Hear, hear.

A Chathaoirligh, may I——

It is not in order to interrupt the Leader of the House when he is replying to the Order of Business.

I will communicate with him later.

Senator Cox expressed great concern about the dreadful murder of a female taxi driver. We offer our condolences to her family. A debate with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in respect of taxi services is long overdue and I will make time available for one at the earliest opportunity.

With regard to Senator Coghlan's concerns in respect of tribunals, I will try to ascertain the information he requires and communicate with him later.

Senator McGowan sought a debate on cigarette advertising. I will make this a priority and try to facilitate his request before Christmas, possibly during Private Members' time in the final week of the session.

The matter should not be dragged out.

I could not agree more with Senator McGowan in respect of this issue.

Senator Chambers sought a debate with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment on the Government's policy on job creation and employment in rural areas. I will make time available for such a debate in the early part of the next session.

Senator O'Dowd raised the issue of providing an additional cardiac health unit. At present, the waiting list for heart by-pass operations numbers 1,600. A further cardiac health unit, catering for 500 people per year, would eliminate the backlog within three years. I am very involved with Maurice Nelligan and his team. In relation to helping in this regard, I attended a seminar in Jury's Hotel last Saturday. I will facilitate the Senator in allowing a debate on the matter, but I understand the Minister for Health and Children is at an advanced stage in trying to meet the requirements of the Senator's wishes.

The Leader has indicated that he will accept the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.
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