Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund Bill, 1997: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Dr. Haughey

At the adjournment of the debate I was talking about the issue of tax incentives to encourage corporate bodies, individuals and other institutions to make contributions to this innovative fund. Provision should be made for tax incentives in the Finance Bill, but an amount of work is needed to include tax incentives for primary and second level education. Provision has already been made for third level education.

Senator Quinn expressed concern that the £250 million which the Government has promised may not be included in the overall sum and that any private sector contribution would be deducted from that amount. I would be annoyed if the Government was to welsh on a definite statement that in the period 1998-2000 this sum will be made available.

I am concerned about the numerous references in the Bill to the Department of Finance. However, control through an administrative system is essential and we cannot allow one Department free reign over another. I hope the status quo will remain and the Department of Education and Science will have discretion within spending limits.

The Minister set out the sectors which will receive allocations and the relevant amounts. Those who listened to him must agree that we are putting forward sensible and innovative legislation to cater for young people for the next two generations. There will be £20 million available for crafts, £20 million for vocational education, £80 million for infrastructure, £30 million for third level education equipment, £15 million for research and development and £25 million for schools in the Schools IT 2000 programme. That represents a large amount of money fairly shared across the board.

The legislation does not cover tax incentives to encourage corporate bodies to make donations or institutions to compete with other bodies, such as universities, for contributions from people who are in a position to bestow them. I urge the Minister to sympathetically consider a system which would encourage individuals to contribute money. The fact that no provision has been made so far for first and second level education must cause concern. I urge the Minister to put this matter at the top of his agenda.

I support the Bill and I compliment the Minister and the Government for introducing this innovative legislation. It is the first legislation to involve the public and private sectors and hopefully they will come together in a synergistic effort to promote the welfare of our youth.

Dr. Henry

I welcome the Bill as somebody who has been involved in research. It is a tremendous boost to everybody who has been campaigning for significant investment in scientific and technological education and training for many years. The heavy hand of the Department of Finance is much in evidence and while I am confident about the £1 billion that has been promised for next year, there is a caveat regarding funding in the following two years. I hope the Celtic tiger does not turn into a rug, as Deputy Noonan suggested in the other House, and lower amounts are directed towards this area in 1999 and 2000. It is important that funds are available for a reasonable length of time in this area so that plans can be made to apply them properly. I am also worried that there is no mention of the administrative costs of the programme. Will they come from the funds set aside under the Bill?

I agree with Senator Haughey's point about the importance of addressing primary and second level education. Provision has been made for the spending of some money in those areas. However, the further we progress in discussions about scientific and technological developments, the more we realise it is important to provide funds at primary and second level. This ensures that children begin to consider these areas as options in education rather than arriving at third level and discovering they do not have the background knowledge which would allow them enter those fields. School pupils must be technically literate, have a good knowledge of science and have chosen scientific subjects at an early stage so they can use them at third level.

It is essential to avoid increasing skills shortages that are developing in Ireland so that we remain attractive to overseas companies. More importantly, in ensuring that skilled people are available to service indigenous companies, we must be careful not to select flavour of the moment skills shortage areas. For example, in terms of the area in which Senator Haughey has most knowledge, there is a shortage of pharmacists. As the Minister is aware, the school of pharmacy is small and it takes time to make changes in that area. We must look ahead to ensure shortages do not develop further.

The large pharmaceutical industry is already importing many graduates from abroad. It is a great pity, given the growth of the pharmaceutical industry, that the need for more graduates in this area was not anticipated. The computer area was addressed, but it is also a sector where we did not look far enough ahead. In view of that, I urge the Minister to divert as much money as possible towards teacher training. If teachers at second level do not have in service training and the skills to pass on to their pupils, a problem will develop at third level in terms of suitable students.

Problems arise at third level, such as academic contracts which include the longest hours in Europe. It appears that will worsen rather than improve. Without adequate investment in teachers at second and third levels in these areas and despite the best efforts of academic staff in universities, regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology, the quality of graduates will suffer. We cannot afford to replace one problem with another; the shortage of people cannot be replaced by poor quality graduates.

Another problem I have frequently mentioned is the role of research in all third level institutions. The skills of those working in research must be constantly improved. Education in this area must be supported and it is not only a case of providing money. Time must be made available. I am concerned about postgraduates being used for an enormous amount of service work. Time must be provided for the research they are undertaking.

The Minister's new fund provides huge opportunities for new programmes, new funding mechanisms and new ideas to maximise the research resources which exist in colleges. We should not be afraid to be bold. Many ideas could succeed and I commend them to the Minister. For example, the support of long-term research projects is vital. Funding is available for three years; but even with improved technological methods, that is a very short time for many research programmes. New staff positions in teaching and research need to be funded so people have adequate time to deal with these areas. There is international competition for our post doctoral research scientists. We must understand that and ensure they have the resources they need. Otherwise, they will go elsewhere.

Much of our current research is devoted to becoming involved in international schemes. This is good, but it is also important to encourage intra national co-operation between researchers in different third level institutions, either with or without an industrial input. This could be done by giving new types of grants under which people must co-operate with other institutions. This happens in Germany and similar projects could be established in Ireland to ensure there is co-operation on an all-island basis.

Nutritional and genetic research programmes are ongoing and there are other areas in which projects could be initiated. Interdisciplinary projects should be encouraged and better resourced. The interface between research in various disciplines could be addressed, for example, between orthopaedics and the development of durable and biologically compatible joint replacements. This area is extraordinarily important.

The Irish Research Scientists Association is currently setting up an expertise register as a resource for Irish and multinational industries to support their research and to find research partners for overseas companies. The Minister should support this type of effort. Awareness among the public about the value of Irish research should be promoted. For example, my colleague, Dr. Owen Smith, who was researching coagulation and blood products, has brought forward tremendous research on the use of Protein C in meningococcal septicaemia.

Work must also be carried out on the next generation of telecommunication traffic switch stores. We must remember that new developments in these areas make the public aware of their importance.

I commend the Irish Research Scientists Association for informing local radio stations and newspapers about important awards presented to Irish scientists, many of whom are junior professionals in their fields. Hearing that a local man or woman has made good makes the public realise the importance of these areas.

The practice of offering people 75 per cent of their grants should be discouraged and, where possible, full funding should be provided. A project must be developed to its fullest irrespective of whether 75 per cent of a grant or the entire amount is provided. If adequate resources are not provided, it is usually the project which suffers.

Postgraduates should be paid proper salaries — perhaps £5,500 plus fees. On a previous occasion I pointed out that Forbairt grants do not cover course fees, which might amount to £2,500. This means that 50 per cent of a student's grant is used on paying fees and they are, in effect, working for £2 or £3 per hour. That is incredible when one considers the amount of work they do and its value to the country. It is important that postgraduates receive proper funding.

Ireland is very poorly represented on international research organisations. Having served on several of these bodies, I cannot understand why we do not increase our investment in this area because of the spin-off effect it could have on tourism. Anyone from Ireland who is involved with an international medical or scientific organisation trying to arrange a venue for its next meeting usually keep their heads down because this country is generally the popular choice to host international meetings. I recognise that those involved must put enormous work into the organisation of such meetings. Therefore, Irish research workers must be given some aid towards becoming involved in international organisations. We must be remember that their involvement may be of great value to this country. Fees for involvement in an international organisation can be quite high and I would be grateful if the Minister — without delving into the grant provided for research — could discover a way to subsidise those fees.

Irish research requires a global presence because we are not as isolated as heretofore. It is important to make our mark internationally. The great changes in communication have made a major difference in this area. These organisations have become almost virtual research institutions, with the assistance of the Internet, etc. We must ensure that we make the best use of advances in this area, which can be done at minimum expense.

During the debate on the Universities Bill I highlighted the fact that we sometimes have to buy in research expertise. This may mean paying international researchers large amounts of money to come to Ireland to become involved in research projects. I raised this issue when, on the Universities Bill, we attempted to place a cap on the amount various professors could be paid. As I pointed out to our former colleague, Professor Joe Lee, professors of history come much cheaper than their counterparts in engineering, polymer physics or genetics. This must be taken into account when attempting to promote these areas.

The Bill allocates £30 million to update research equipment, which is good. However, it is estimated that there is a current shortfall of between £50 million and £80 million in bringing such equipment, some of which is considered dangerous, up to date. On a previous occasion I pointed out that a piece of equipment in a hospital with which I am familiar, and which shall remain nameless, was so old it had to be repaired using a part obtained from a museum situated at the factory in Germany where the machine was built. In other institutions it was decided that researchers should discontinue using radiological equipment because of the dangers involved. We cannot expect Irish researchers to perform internationally when they are obliged to deal with outdated equipment.

I welcome the location of the fund with the National Treasury Management Agency because it will be untouchable. It would be better not to develop any further quangos. The Department of Health and Children and the office of science and technology are equipped with dependable, transparent, fair and accountable means to bring forward research funding. The Health Research Board and the National Research Support Fund Board also have the confidence of the research community and the public purseholders. I hope we do not run into the sort of problems encountered with the Wellcome Trust where VAT was deducted from the money allocated for health research work. We very nearly lost more money for such research than the State was providing at that time.

Like Senators Haughey and Quinn, I am disappointed that action has not been taken in respect of tax relief on funding from the private and corporate sectors. It is very difficult to attract such funding. We in Ireland are competing on an international basis. I would be glad if the Minister for Finance would recognise that fact and try to do something about it. Where there is a shortfall from public funding, support mechanisms must be put in place to enable people to try to obtain money from private and corporate interests. It was for this reason that Trinity College fought strongly to maintain the separation between private and public funds for the university because of the reticence on the part of some private contributors to give money if they believe they are merely displacing funds which should be provided from the public purse. Such funding is of great importance in promoting the education and training of Ireland's Celtic tiger cubs. I congratulate the Minister on bringing the Bill before the House.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Mr. Treacy)

Is mór an onóir dom teacht go dtí Seanad Éireann chun freastal ar an mBille um gCiste Oideachais Eolaíochta agus Teicneolaíochta (Infhéistíocht) agus ba mhaith liom, ó chroí, thar ceann an Rialtais agus thar ceann an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta, buíochas a ghabháil do na Seanadóirí uilig a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht thábhachtach seo.

I would like to sincerely thank all Senators for their interesting and incisive contributions on this most important Bill.

This Bill is imaginative, innovative, important and historic. It is important because it points up and emphasises the Government's real commitment to developing high level scientific and technological skills in support of our national economy. It is historic in that it is the first time such a massive injection of capital funding is being committed to the education sector. In addition, the proposals in the Bill are both innovative and imaginative.

The Minister for Education and Science, and others have spoken today of the need to keep abreast of the rapidly developing technologies. It is an unfortunate fact that despite the rapid growth in student numbers, particularly in regional technical colleges and the institutes of technology, the physical infrastructure of these institutions did not keep pace with this growth. Notwithstanding the shortcomings in accommodation and equipment, the institutions, nevertheless, maintained a high level of quality in their output. The availability of highly skilled technicians, diplomates and graduates has played a major part in developing the high technology section of Irish industry in both multinational and indigenous companies. This industry has, in turn, contributed greatly to our achieving a thriving economy, which is an amazement to and the envy of our European partners.

It is time, however, to recognise that the technological sector of education is in need of a major capital injection and this Bill provides the framework for this injection. I recently announced a major initiative involving a total investment of £1.5 million over the next two years, in advanced software technologies. When launching that initiative, which will draw on the expertise of the universities, I said that Ireland has now firmly established itself as a software capital of Europe and that in order to cement this position in the future, continued reinvestment in the sector is crucial. To put the matter in context, we should appreciate that seven of the top ten independent software companies have major operations here and that annual output from the sector is of the order of $5 billion. Apart from direct investment in the industry, it is vital that we also invest in the institutions providing the graduates and high level technicians to source the industry.

The Action Programme for a New Millennium, published by the Government, gave a strong commitment to the development of science, technology and innovation. The commitment is to the development of an STI infrastructure capable of supporting the researchers, technicians and innovators needed to underpin the competitiveness of Irish firms in the dynamic global environment of the new millennium. The policy document recognised the importance of continuing to attract high technology industry to Ireland and promised to increase the throughput of electronic and computer graduates in our higher education institutions. The programme also committed the Government to addressing training deficiencies in the tourism area. It is to the credit of the Government that it moved so swiftly to fulfil the commitments in its action programme.

In the context of the Bill there has been much emphasis on high level technological and scientific education, and rightly so. The policy behind the Bill has a much broader perspective. It addresses the needs of, and provides for investment in, all levels of education in the area of modern technology and communications.

The Schools Information Technology 2000 Initiative, which was launched recently, will ensure there will be at least 60,000 computers in Irish schools within the next three years. This means that pupils in primary and secondary schools will benefit from this major investment in computer technology. We must accept that at present Ireland is not on equal footing with other European countries in the integration of information and communication technologies, both in first and second level education. The Schools Information Technology 2000 Programme aims to redress the balance and bring our first and second level students up to the levels of computer literacy on a par with more advanced European countries. We are relying on a wide-ranging partnership to bring this about, a partnership between the State, parents, schools, local communities, third level institutions and the rapidly growing private sector. In terms of capital investment for hardware and software equipment, the investment fund pledges a State investment of £25 million.

In addition to first and second level pupils, the investment fund will provide infrastructure support for apprenticeships in the colleges and institutes of technology. It will address also the capital needs in the further education area. This is a sector where dramatic developments have taken place in a relatively short time. From fairly modest beginnings, pioneering vocational preparation and training courses, it has grown into a substantial further education sector where in excess of 18,000 students are following a great variety of post-leaving certificate courses, many of them in technological areas.

I have already spoken of the third level sector and its remit in producing high skilled technicians and graduates. In addition, the fund will provide for research development and technology transfer. This will involve highly educated and highly skilled post graduates working at the leading edge of science and technology. Thus the wide focus of the fund mirrors in the area of modern technology the continuum of education from primary, through second, further and higher education to the highest level of post-graduate activity. The purpose for which the fund was set up, therefore, represents a coherent policy to develop technological experience and education through the entire education sector.

A sum of £250 million, in addition to the normal annual Estimates which the fund will provide — we are leaving aside any contributions which may come from private sources — represents a very large investment by any standards. It might be said that this money should be invested instead in other areas of education. This has been suggested throughout the debate here this evening. While I appreciate that this may, indeed, be argued, I suggest that this is not an "either/or" situation. The Government is prepared to address all aspects of education, but the investment fund is a special case. It is there to meet a very specific need at all levels of our education in the context of a hugely technological-orientated world. Investment of the kind in question, though modest up to now, has reaped a rich harvest for the national economy and for the wellbeing of our people.

It is timely to give technological development a further boost in order to maintain our economic growth. I know I am not alone in that view. Public reaction to the Government's initiative has been almost universally favourable. This has been symbolised here this evening by the positive contributions of the vast majority of Members of this House. This is very gratifying. Inevitably, we are told that £250 million over a three year period will not be enough. One newspaper editorial gave the opinion that compared to the long-term requirements, the proposed sums of money involved are modest enough. I would not describe an investment of £250 million as modest by any standard, at any time. However, in view of the speed with which modern communications and information technology is changing, it is difficult to gauge what future investment needs may be. This is one of the reasons we propose to monitor carefully in the future emerging skill needs so that we can ensure our education and training institutions can readily adapt to changing requirements.

In this area, too, the benefit of partnership is recognised. It is of particular interest to me, with a foot in both Departments, that both the Tánaiste and the Minister for Education and Science are to co-chair an education-business forum with wideranging representation. Emerging skills requirements will be monitored and assessed by an expert group. Decisions aimed at addressing these needs will be driven by a high powered implementation group. Thus the various interests of State, higher education and business will work together to identify areas for attention and will monitor progress towards meeting needs.

I will now turn my attention to some points raised by Senators throughout the debate today. Senator Coogan asked specifically what the framework would be for spending private donations to the new fund. He is a third level professional and has his finger on the pulse. The Bill provides for donors to lay down conditions as to how their donations might be used provided the conditions are not in conflict with the Bill. Where conditions are not laid down, expenditure of donations will be on the same basis as Exchequer funds, namely, through consultation and in accordance with priorities at any particular time.

Senator Ormonde referred to the need for young people to be made aware of where the jobs are and the qualifications necessary to get these jobs. It is proposed that a partnership between all the relevant agencies of State and private business be set up to identify skills needs and monitor the progress of decisions made to meet these needs. These are the areas in which job opportunities will arise and young people will be kept abreast of such opportunities at all times.

Senator O'Toole mentioned VAT on educational equipment and I am sure he has already made strong representations to the Minister for Finance in this regard. He also made a number of valid points about teacher training in new technologies, as did Senator Henry. This will be taken on board. Senator O'Toole put down a marker that schools which, through their own efforts, are already to the fore in computer equipment should not be penalised in the shareout of computer equipment. His point is well made and will be taken on board.

Senator Quill emphasised the need for a suitable training programme in new technologies for teachers. I assure the Senator and the House that the lesson has been learned that equipment without the people to benefit from it is worthless. Part of the Information Technology 2000 Programme will be training of a minimum 20,000 teachers in tandem with the introduction of computers in the schools.

Senator Costello raised the constitutionality of introducing this Bill initially in the Seanad on the basis that it may be a Money Bill. That matter was raised before it was decided to introduce the Bill in the Seanad. This is not, in itself, a Money Bill. The money involved is voted for by the Dáil through the Estimates process for the Department of Education and Science and will be paid into the fund. The legislation provides for that and deals with the mechanics of the fund's operation. The money will be paid into the fund and the legal framework for the operation of the fund is included in the Bill. This is standard procedure with any Bill and there is no constitutional conflict inherent in it.

Senator Quinn stated that the Bill only provides for payment of £100 million into the fund in 1998 and no commitment is given to Exchequer payments beyond that. I assure the Senator and the House that this Government is absolutely committed to providing not only the £100 million for 1998 but an additional £150 million over 1999 and the year 2000.

At the launch of this initiative on 6 November, the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Education and Science all confirmed this Government's decision to provide a total of £250 million of Exchequer money to the fund over the next three years. That is our de facto position. This decision will facilitate immediate initiation, planning and implementation of a capital programme within the framework of the £250 million. Obviously, once the programme has commenced, contractual commitments will have been made and the balance of the money for 1999 and 2000 will be provided. While the Bill is framed in normal, careful, legal language the Government's commitment to it is unequivocal. I ask the House to accept that; we mean business.

The Government has no intention of using money in the private investment account as a substitution for State money. The Bill is careful to ensure that private money will not be part of general Exchequer funds but will be held in a separate account. This will safeguard the private donations and reassure private donors. Further reassurance is given through the provision that money donated cannot be used for purposes other than those provided for in the Bill. The existence of the private investment account in the fund is to enable private donations to be made if donors so wish.

The Minister for Education and Science has already stated he expects that major private donations will continue to be made directly to the institutions, not to the fund. The operation of a fund of this kind is, in fact, much more suitable to a rolling programme of capital investment than is the normal Estimates operation which provides that money expended at the end of any financial year is returned to the Exchequer. This disadvantage does not arise in the case of this fund. This is a dedicated, technological investment education fund which will be handled by the National Treasury Management Agency. The NTMA is one of the gems of public service in this country and an international centre of excellence in international currency and debt management. The NTMA will be able to use the funds and protect them in a dedicated fashion for this particular technological education investment fund and will be in a position to ensure the country gets the maximum use of the fund and the resources therein at all times.

While under current arrangements the sanction of the Minister for Finance is required for payments, the Department operates under a system of delegated sanctions which obviate the need for seeking sanctions in individual cases. The same arrangements will apply in the case of money expended from the fund.

I thank Senator Henry for her positive and detailed contribution. Like Senator Coogan, she is a professional in the third level sector and is familiar with what is happening there. I know she is positively disposed towards achieving equality of opportunity in the technical and scientific fields of education. Under the late great Donogh O'Malley we created equality of opportunity for all the children of the nation and that principle has evolved through our education system. We must strive for further equalisation under that system so that students will have options, education will be provided and technological skills will be imparted. That will ensure that job opportunities, resulting from the boom of the Celtic tiger, can be sustained into the future and we will have the kind of skilled graduates who can avail of them and ensure that this country will not lose out as we leave this century and prepare for the next millennium.

I recommend the terms of the Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund Bill, 1997, to the House. It is a Bill which provides for investment in an area of modern society without which this country would stagnate economically. We owe it to our young people to provide them with the skills and knowledge necessary in a technological world and to ensure the economy they inherit will be relevant, developing and capable of providing them with sound employment and a high standard of living. The Bill provides for dedicated investment which, in effect, we have no choice but to make, an investment which we can confidently expect will repay the country in large measure as we face the growing opportunities of a new millennium. Gabhaim buíochas libh uilig agus rath Dé ar bhúr n-eachtraí agus ar an Teach seo i gcónaí.

Question put and agreed to.