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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 1999

Vol. 161 No. 5

Capital Gains Tax and Inheritance Tax: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to seek to address the defects that exist in capital gains tax and inheritance tax in the forthcoming budget.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Cullen, to the House to respond to the motion. In putting down this motion I am conscious of the tax reforming measures brought forward in the last two budgets by the Minister, on which I compliment him. He has taken more steps to rationalise the tax system in the past two years than had been taken in a quarter of a century prior to that. It is against that background I make some suggestions and highlight some aspects of inheritance tax, in particular, and capital gains tax that are in the public domain.

The current thresholds on inheritance no longer reflect economic reality. When inheritance tax was introduced in 1975-76 the threshold was set at £150,000. The index of that threshold is now £192,000. The escalation in property prices was not foreseen when the threshold was set and should be revised. On its introduction in 1976, the exemptions threshold for gifts and inheritance from a parent to a child was £150,000. Unfortunately provision to index this threshold for inflation was not recognised until 1990. The per iod from 1976 to 1990 saw significant rates of inflation in the economy. The current index exemption threshold from parent to child is £192,000. Effectively the parent to child threshold has increased by some 28.6 per cent between 1996 and 1999.

This tax was introduced by a former Minister for Finance, Mr. Richie Ryan. At that time his opposite number, the late George Colley, indicated that it should have been index linked because he saw the time bomb that would develop down the road. However the Minister stood steadfastly against that and we have the present situation which should be addressed.

The threshold has increased by 28.6 per cent from 1996 to 1999. The increase in house prices in the period from 1976 to 1998 is as follows: in the Dublin area new house prices have increased by over 1,000 per cent, new houses prices in the Republic have increased by over 800 per cent; secondhand houses in Dublin have increased by 1,100 per cent and secondhand houses in the Republic have increased by almost 900 per cent. The disparity between the rates of increase on the average price of new and secondhand houses and the amount by which the parent-child exemption threshold has been indexed is best demonstrated by the fact that if a parent-child exemption threshold had been indexed annually from the inception of the capital acquisitions tax the annual exemption for 1999 would be £932,950. There is a a major difference between the actual amount and what it would be if the late George Colley had been listened to in 1976.

If George Colley had been listened to a bit more in many respects we would not be in the mess we are. I thank the Senator for providing me with that wonderful conclusion.

Senator Finneran to continue without interruption.

Senator Norris had other matters and other agendas in 1976. A large number of taxpayers, particularly those in large urban areas, are extremely anxious about the likely liability to capital acquisitions tax that will arise on the passing on of their family home. It is clear that the proponents of the tax in 1976 did not envisage this situation. Among the many examples brought to the attention of a reputable organisation, the Institute of Taxation, is that of an elderly gentleman who acquired a house in 1976 for the sum of £27,000. His house is now valued at approximately £400,000. In the event of his child inheriting his family home probate tax of £8,000 and inheritance tax of £70,000 would be payable, assuming the beneficiary had received no prior gift or inheritance. It is likely that the beneficiary in this case would be forced to sell the house in order to pay the tax due. This faces a large number of ordinary taxpayers. I suggest the thresholds be reviewed and increased to 1999 values in real terms and thereafter continue to be indexed as at present. The problem is that the baseline figure of £150,000 set in 1976 is no longer representative.

In regard to capital gains tax, many owner-managers are facing difficulty in handing on their family businesses because of the £250,000 threshold on the value of a business. That figure is unrealistic and in view of 1999 values I call on the Minister to see whether the threshold can be increased in the budget. The difficulty regarding taxation is that many small businesses are affected and many of the middle income sections of society are penalised. I do not believe this was the original intention. Capital gains tax, when introduced, was intended to affect only a small number of people.

Business relief was introduced in the Finance Act, 1994, as a means of encouraging families to transfer businesses to the next generation and it was a laudable decision. When combined with the retirement relief for capital gains tax purposes, under section 559 of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997, it has proved helpful to families in minimising tax costs on the transfer of a business. I compliment everybody involved in that. However, there is a serious misalignment between the relief for transfer of business property for capital acquisitions tax purposes and capital gains retirement relief. In many family companies, the business premises are retained in personal ownership even though the business itself is operated through a company. This may have developed for a number of reasons, including the lack of stamp duty relief on incorporation for transfer of property from personal ownership to a company; commercial reasons where an individual may have felt a greater sense of security by having personal ownership of the property; and financial requirements where the business was expanding. This has been recognised in capital acquisitions tax business relief provisions in a number of sections which provide for land and buildings, machinery and other plant which have been used wholly or mainly for the purpose of a business which qualifies for a business property relief for capital acquisitions tax purposes which transfers at the same time as shares and the underlying business. Unfortunately, there is no similar relief under section 599 of the Tax (Consolidation) Act, 1997, and such a transfer of property constitutes a taxable disposal for capital gains tax purposes.

A number of submissions have been made to the Revenue Commissioners in the past seeking concession treatment. As public representatives we have all received similar submissions. However, it is the view of the Revenue that property held by an individual outside the family company is an investment asset and consequently is not a qualifying business asset for the purposes of retirement leave under section 599 of the 1997 Act. With a view to simplification of the tax code, the Institute of Taxation in Ireland has recommended that the capital gains tax rules on transfer of business property be aligned with those for capital acquisitions tax and I ask the Minister to look at this proposal.

My purpose in moving this motion is to generate debate leading up to the budget and to afford the House the opportunity to express its view on the matter. I am conscious of the work done by the Minister for Finance in recent years. He has turned the tax system on its head and has been the most progressive Minister in this area for the last quarter of a century. I am aware of his commitment to this area. As the Government spokesman on Finance, I afford the House this opportunity to express its views and recommend what it considers to be appropriate for the Minister to take on board when preparing the budget.

I second the motion. Capital acquisitions tax, comprising inheritance tax and gift tax, is causing difficulties for many people. We all want to own our homes, yet recently many young families had huge difficulties acquiring a home because of escalating house prices, although in view of the economic situation they have the option to rent. Difficulties are also being encountered by people who purchased their homes years ago and have raised their families in them. Huge concerns arise on the death of parents, or when they wish to pass on family homes to family members, something that was never anticipated when they purchased them.

The thresholds in the capital acquisitions tax are causing huge difficulties. In recent years they have increased in line with inflation, but the rapid rise in house prices, especially in urban areas, means they are far less generous than in the past. As a result, increasing numbers are forced to pay the tax on their inheritances. The current tax thresholds are totally inadequate because they have only been raised by small amounts while house prices have doubled or trebled, especially in the last two years.

The Minister for Finance has given a commitment to review the capital acquisitions tax system, including inheritance tax, to see what he can do to alleviate the problems. The trend in house inflation has been especially evident in the greater Dublin area, although many other parts of the country have been affected. I have every confidence the Minister will tackle this huge problem in the budget. He can be trusted. Having spent two years in the same class as him in boarding school, I have always had faith in his prudence and in his ability to see the wood from the trees. It is time to take family homes totally out of the capital acquisitions tax net. In addition, consideration should be given to removing small family farms and businesses.

Capital acquisitions tax was introduced in 1976 following the introduction of the gift tax in February 1974 and the full inheritance tax in April 1975. It originally comprised a number of aspects which covered different classes of beneficiaries who received inheritances. This was changed in 1982 with the introduction of aggregation, where some of the classes were aggregated together. Difficulties arose in 1984 with the introduction of full aggregation when all values received by a beneficiary were classed as one, no matter who was the disponer.

The major problem is in the thresholds of the tax. None of the thresholds was amended until the Finance Act, 1990. The threshold of £150,000 covering children has only increased to £192,000. If it had been index linked from 1974 to 1990 that value would now be just under £950,000.

The other thresholds are even more ridiculous. The threshold for brothers, sisters, nephews or nieces is only £25,000, while the third threshold, which covers those not related to each other, and which was originally £10,000, now stands at £12,860. It would not be possible to buy a family car for that money.

In its various legislative initiatives the Government has already demonstrated its considerable understanding of the taxation problems confronted by different categories of people when they inherit the house in which they have lived for many years. Furthermore, the Revenue Commissioners will consider proposals for postponement of the payment of inheritance tax where payment would cause excessive hardship. The Revenue has been more than fair in dealing with this aspect. There have also been improvements in respect of the family farm and business. At present, only 90 per cent of the value is taken into consideration.

Problems still arise where siblings, brothers and sisters, live together. While there have been improvements in this area over the last number of years, no capital acquisitions tax should be levied where unmarried brothers and sisters have been living together for many years. On the death of one the survivor should be entitled to the property in full.

The inheritance tax brought in under the Capital Acquisitions Tax Act, 1976, was introduced by the Fine Gael Minister for Finance, Mr. Richie Ryan. He told the Seanad that the result of the tax would mean that whatever people feared in death regarding their eternal position, they could leave the world at ease as far as their families were concerned and they could die in the knowledge that whatever they left behind would not be grabbed by the Revenue Commissioners.

Those responsible for introducing capital acquisitions tax in 1976 appeared to take the view that the tax would have an impact on a very small number of taxpayers covering only those who were clearly in a position to pay the tax without much pain. At the time the then Opposition spokesperson on Finance, the late George Colley, recognised the time bomb inherent in the tax following the omission to include provision for indexation of the relevant thresholds at the inception of the tax. It is unfortunate that this was not incorporated in the Bill. Mr. Colley criticised the Minister for not doing this and warned that, in consequence, the tax would, in a relatively short time, affect people adversely and wrongly.

New house prices have risen by 1,000 per cent in Dublin. In the same period, 1976 to 1999, thresholds have risen by only 28 per cent. I propose that the forthcoming budget should provide that all gifts or inheritance of disponer's principal private residence should be exempt from capital acquisitions tax.

Further difficulties are arising for people living in non-marital relationships. They are faced with the situation whereby the threshold available to them is less than the price of a small family car. One can see the effect the imposition of thresholds is having on many people. I do not believe they should be increased, rather I believe that all family homes should be passed down through generations without incurring tax. After all, those who borrowed and mortgaged their homes paid tax on their salaries. They should be able to leave their homes to their families on death.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Seanad Éireann condemns the failure of the Government to address the serious inequities in inheritance tax and capital acquisitions tax; and calls on the Government to remedy them in the forthcoming budget."

I readily acknowledge what Senator Finneran said about the present Minister for Finance and the direction in which this Government is going. As far as I am concerned, it has not gone fast enough. It is appropriate to say that what the Minister has done in the area of capital gains tax in particular is revolutionary and courageous. It was not popular at the time but was justified a very short time afterwards. It is right that that be acknowledged by all sides of the House. I do not believe for one moment that it will be repealed if the Opposition returns to power.

The Minister, in the budget two years ago, reduced capital taxation from 40 per cent to 20 per cent. There were outcries from the legions of the Left about this benefiting the pockets of the rich and that it was a measure introduced at their behest. That was not true. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Everybody now knows what the result of that change has been. The reduction in capital gains tax has resulted in more revenue for the Exchequer. That is the answer to those who criticised it. The reason that has happened is very simple. It is not because stocks and shares and property have risen. By reducing these penal levels of taxation on the capital side, we have created mobile capital. I know more about stocks and shares than I do about property. People, particularly older people, who sat for years on stocks and shares and securities of this sort decided to sell them because they did not have to pay so much money to Government and they could move their capital around. That was very welcome. These people were happy to pay 20 per cent tax. They were also – an added benefit, if I dare say so – not so incentivised to indulge in illegal schemes.

The result of reducing capital gains tax – it is mentioned in the Government's motion – from 40 per cent to 20 per cent was to increase revenue for the Government and to increase the individual's revenue. That is good for the economy, the individual and the Government. The figures are quite apparent. Capital gains tax increased to about £193 million in 1998. It also rose in 1997, the year in which the Minister introduced it. It is my belief that a similar attitude should be taken to capital acquisitions tax. I am surprised it has not been taken before. I would prefer if capital acquisitions tax was abolished. The Minister and Revenue officials will correct me if I am wrong but only £3 million was collected from capital acquisitions tax in 1998. That is less than half what the Minister is getting from capital gains tax. I hope the reason for keeping this tax is not to impose punitive taxation against the rich for reasons which the jealous and envious in society so very articulately express so often.

This is an unnecessary tax which produces very little revenue and causes a great deal of hardship. If it was abolished it would release more capital into the economy. It makes sense to abolish it. All it takes is for the Minister, after he delivers his Budget Speech next week, to listen to the whingeing of the Left for a day or two. The ultimate beneficiaries will be those who have been victimised, the Exchequer and certainly the economy. There is no real justification for this tax any more. I see no reason that it should be maintained except it is felt that those with a certain amount of money should have to pay a penalty for passing it from one person to another. It does not make sense that they should have to pay this tax.

We have heard some very hard cases today. Of course there are hard cases. Senators Finneran and Bonner gave some good examples. The absolute proof of the argument for the abolition of this tax is a principle which applies mostly to housing in Dublin but is now creeping into other areas. Senator Finneran said that if the £150,000 threshold was updated it would be £932,000. If the Minister announced that he was going to raise the threshold to £1 million there would be bloody murder from those who suggest it is a tax for the rich. Anybody who looks at house prices will see that that is the equation. We have to ask a fundamental question but not the one being asked of the hard cases.

The emphasis of this debate has been not only on housing and house price increases but on the penalties paid by those who inherit houses they have lived in all their lives. Such people are required to pay 40 per cent of the value of that house by way of taxation. That results in their having to sell the house, go and live in a smaller house and pay stamp duty on it. They are, through no fault of theirs, actually evicted from their homes as a result of taxation. That is totally and fundamentally unfair. I would take it further than that and say that with certain provisions people should be allowed to leave their houses to their children without fear of having to pay taxation. It should not be exclusively applied to those who have lived in the house. That is a hard case, as is the one about siblings. I take the point made by Senator Bonner about siblings. It is extremely tough for brothers and sisters who live together and have to pay an even greater level of tax because the threshold is low. That is unfair. Why should we discriminate against anybody? Why should not anybody – father, son, daughter, etc. – leave their house to a member of their family as a matter of preference with no tax applying? This tax should be abolished.

Because gift tax is so high – it is three quarters of capital acquisitions tax – it encourages older people with all sorts of assets to hold on to them until they die. That is not a good thing. I do not know if anybody heard a programme last night about Jefferson Smurfit Senior who, at the age of 57, very courageously and generously, but in a different tax regime, gave all his assets to his children. The Smurfits, whatever one thinks of them, went ahead and converted those assets into a multinational empire. Under the present regime nobody in that situation would not do such a thing. They would struggle on without the same attitudes as Jefferson Smurfit Senior, who was a great businessman, although probably not as successful as his children, because releasing those assets would cost 40 per cent to the family. If we abolish capital acquisitions tax we will create a taxation environment whereby assets will move around and down a generation and will be used far more aggressively. It would give more employment, more buzz to the economy and generally benefit the Exchequer and the people as a result.

I am happy to second the amendment. It is interesting that this motion came from the Government side. That indicates, like a straw in the wind, that there is some possibility of movement. We should not be surprised. I raised this issue more than a year ago in a discussion on the Finance Bill. I got certain undertakings and I will be looking to the Minister to make clear that they will not be reneged upon by this Government. I got support from every section of this House, including the Minister's party and his former party, although in the beginning it appeared to be fairly controversial.

I raised the issue on foot of communication that related to the history of two gay men in west Cork who had lived together for 50 years. The older of the two got Parkinson's disease and decided to will the house to the younger partner, who promptly got cancer and died. This elderly man was left in a situation where he was presented with a bill for approximately £170,000 for the privilege of living in his own home. That is an outrage, a scandal and a serious violation of fundamental human rights – there is no escaping it. When I first mentioned this there was a certain amount of levity. People thought it a bit odd, that Norris was pushing his own boat out as usual, but then they realised the human side of it and the slight bit of laughter died away as Members from all sides of the House appreciated what this meant in human terms.

I have three or four examples, two or three of them relating to gay relationships of long standing and the other was specifically not a gay relationship. I also raised subsequently the question of siblings, farms and so on and I attracted a good deal of correspondence on the matter. In that discussion the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, gave an undertaking after discussion with the Minister, Deputy McCreevy, that this situation would be addressed. It now appears as if this is being drawn back from and I want to know why. It will be terrible if this happens.

I would like to put a further letter on the record of the House from somebody personally known to me and also to the Minister, Deputy McCreevy. The person said, "If you wish, any or all of the above details, including my name, may be used publicly." This is another responsible man in a long-term gay relationship who is a civil servant. The letter states:

Dear Minister,

In The Irish Times of the 16th September '99, there was a most interesting and encouraging article on the Capital Acquisitions Tax, in which you were quoted as promising to deal with the many injustices that now derive from it. In particular Denis Coghlan wrote that “Action will be taken to change the tax code to accommodate second marriages, homosexual couples and other interpersonal arrangements”. You were also quoted as having a “personal interest in some of these changes”.

It is now a matter of very great disappointment that in the recent announcement of the revised programme for government, it seems that the promised reforms may specifically exclude unmarried couples, whether opposite-sex or same-sex partners. I am writing in a sense, therefore, on behalf of all such couples who share a home, from which, after a death, the surviving partner will most likely be ejected because the tax bill will force the sale.

I write also to put myself forward as an example. For more than twenty years, my partner and I have shared a home in Dublin. As I had bought the house in the early '70s, it is still in my name, though he has paid for some building improvements, and it is of course willed to him. It's a small backstreet house which cost me very little but is now so valuable that when he inherits he will face a bill of about £100,000. Solutions do not seem to exist: a policy on my life is far too expensive; if I give him half the house now, he will just have to pay tax immediately; selling him half the house makes no sense; and, obviously enough, we cannot walk to the nearest registry office and sign up.

The question is not a matter of just inheriting extra property, but about being able to live on in one's own home. It should be easy enough to work out a system where a "de facto" partnership can be recognised.

I want to know what the Minister will do about this. This is where it really hits. This is where we need to know if the Government has a commitment to human rights and equality in terms of a tax regime. We also need to know where people stand and if the Minister will live up to what we were told in this House a year ago.

The inheritance tax laws as they stand have implications for all taxpayers and can have a devastating effect. When it was introduced in 1974 or 1975 it was mainly the very wealthy who had to pay and the exemption amounts were very high relative to property and asset values at the time. This point has been made adequately on both sides of the House. The entire Seanad is in agreement. In the past, most people were neither affected by nor aware of the tax. However, this is no longer the case, although most people are still unaware of the devastating effects of the tax until it hits home and this happens at a time when they are low anyway because they are bereaved. Because of the exorbitant increases in property values today and because inheritance and gift tax have not been indexed relative to this increase, many people now find they have to sell their homes to pay the tax. This is an intolerable burden to be placed on the elderly in particular and should not be considered socially just.

On an inheritance valued at £150,000, there is no tax paid by a married partner or by certain farmers and certain business people, an unmarried partner or friend pays £49,858 and siblings and close relatives pay £44,712. At £200,000 the married partner, certain farmers and certain business people pay no tax but the unmarried partner, friend or gay partner pays £69,856. A gay person is penalised to the extent of £70,000, even though no possibility exists at present of that relationship being legally registered or recognised. Siblings and close friends are not far behind either as they pay £64,712. At £250,000 the married partner, certain farmers and certain business people still pay no tax, but the unmarried partner, friend or gay lover pays £89,856 and siblings or close relatives pays £84,712.

It is obvious that there are anomalies here. There is the question of aggregation. If one has already received a gift on which one has not paid tax, it is aggregated in. Laws can, of course, be manipulated to give some degree of advantage to the individual, but in a just society people would not have to resort to these tactics to protect themselves against the invasive claws of the State.

It has been recommended that people should take out a section 60/119 life assurance policy to cover the tax but this is not the answer in a large number of cases because the policy is extremely expensive and the sum insured does not always keep pace with the real increase in asset values. If capital acquisitions tax is not paid within four months of the valuation date, the Revenue Commissioners, while they may consider hardship cases, will levy a monthly interest charge of 1 per cent.

Certain things need to be done. The principal private residence of the disponer or donor should be entirely and unconditionally exempt from all CAT and probate tax liabilities. The thresholds should be abolished and replaced by a flat rate of 10 per cent CAT for all citizens on all other property valued above £100,000. Aggregation rules should be relaxed. Concerning children of deceased parents where a trust exists, section 58(2) should be amended to remove the words "in the lifetime of the disponer" to allow minor children to be maintained from a deceased parental trust, thereby placing orphaned children in the same position as children with living parents.

I have received a great deal more correspondence from people, including a former strong supporter of Fianna Fáil who provided me with a list of ways in which the price index has multiplied.

We are a broadly based party.

Yes, but I knew he was definitely a Fianna Fáil supporter when he told me that RTÉ was full of commies. I said I thought they were stickies but he said, "No".

I understand that for procedural reasons I cannot move my amendment now but I intend to do so when the amendment of the Independent Group is disposed of. I wish to address my amendment, which proposes to amend the motion by adding after "budget":

and in particular, to exempt from inheritance tax, persons who inherit the house in which they ordinarily live (as their primary residence), to significantly increase the class thresholds, and to reform capital acquisitions tax to encourage the early transfer of family farms and family businesses.

In his statement of 11 November Deputy Noonan called on the Minister for Finance to completely reform capital acquisitions tax in the forthcoming budget. The recent rise in property prices and the unprecedented rise in house prices, particularly in certain areas in Dublin, has resulted in huge liabilities for inheritance tax which frequently cannot be met by beneficiaries on low income.

Fine Gael is calling on the Minister for Finance to make four changes to capital acquisitions tax as a minimum first step: the exemption of the family home from inheritance tax in circumstances where the beneficiary lives in the family home and it is his or her principal primary residence on the day prior to the death of the disponer; the reduction of three class thresholds to two by amalgamating the two class thresholds regarding relatives and the increase of the exemption limit of £192,800 to £400,000 for the new class A and from £20,000 to £30,000 for the new class B; to introduce a more benign regime for the transfer of farms for full-time farmers; and to introduce a more benign regime for the transfer of family businesses. The third and fourth proposals are designed to encourage the early transfer of family farms and family businesses from parents to children. Senator Tom Hayes will address these issues in his contribution.

Fine Gael also believes that the rate of capital acquisitions tax should be reviewed. It is difficult to understand how the Minister for Finance can stand over the top rate of capital acquisitions tax of 40 per cent when in his last budget he reduced the rate of capital gains tax to 20 per cent. It is obvious to everyone that the current tax thresholds are totally inadequate given the massive increase in house prices. During this period the thresholds have only been raised by a small amount while house prices have trebled and quadrupled. The best example is that of a local authority housing estate built in 1950 beside where I live. Dublin Corporation sold the first houses in that scheme to the tenants under the tenant purchase scheme for £5,000 per house. Recently one of these houses fetched over £200,000. Houses that cost less than £80,000 in the late 1980s are now selling for in excess of £500,000 because of the super-inflation in the Dublin housing market.

The following example is common in many areas in suburban Dublin. Let us say that a middle aged lady gave up work to look after her widowed mother. Her father had died previously and at that time the house was worth £98,000. The woman's mother died last year and left the family home to her, which would be the natural thing to do. That house is now worth £350,000. It is just a modest, semi-detached house. This woman faces an inheritance tax bill of almost £60,000. Because she gave up her job to care for her parents she has no money of her own to pay the tax and, as she has no income with which to raise a mortgage, she has no alternative but to sell the house. After paying auctioneers' fees and her taxes she is left with a little over £200,000 and with that kind of money she is unable to buy a house near where she lived. Indeed, she would be lucky to buy even the smallest house on the south side of Dublin at that price so probably she will end up buying a small one-bedroomed apartment.

Another category, to whom a number of Senators referred, is partners in second relationships where, when the home-owning partner, dies the other partner is particularly hard hit. Unmarried partners are, for the purpose of inheritance tax, treated as strangers and only the class three exemption threshold of £12,860 applies. Frequently in these circumstances the surviving partner is left with no option but to sell the home.

The Fine Gael amendment calls for the exemption of the family home from inheritance tax and I believe this is justified. The need for change in this area speaks for itself, particularly in light of the increase in property values. There have been many hardship cases; brothers and sisters or chil dren of parents who live in the house for a long time, particularly if one has been a carer, should not have to sell the home and move ten or 15 miles to buy an apartment. In my amendment I am not condemning the Government but I am encouraging the Minister for Finance to be more generous in the budget in relation to capital acquisitions tax. I hope the Fine Gael amendment will have the support of the House.

I listened with interest to what the Senators said. I compliment my colleagues, Senators Finneran and Bonner, for proposing and seconding the motion and the other Senators who have contributed.

The motion refers to both capital gains tax and capital acquisitions tax and I propose to deal with capital gains tax initially. The Minister for Finance, in his Budget Statement delivered in December 1997, halved the rate of capital gains tax from 40 per cent to 20 per cent for all disposals of assets except for development land. Under the capital gains tax system persons liable for tax are required to make their preliminary payments of tax on 1 November in respect of the previous tax year, which runs from 6 April to 5 April. Therefore, this current calendar year is the first year in which the Revenue Commissioners will have data for a full year's yield of capital gains tax based entirely on the new lower rate regime for the tax. I am pleased to inform the House that the early indications on the yield are extremely positive and it now appears likely that the outturn for this year will exceed the budget day projection by a considerable margin. It is worth noting that this increase in the yield confounds the predictions made by some commentators at the time the rate was reduced.

The Minister has often gone on the record as saying that a higher rate of capital gains tax serves only as an encouragement for people to hold on to their assets in ways which may contribute little to growing the overall size of the economy and its productive capacity. In these circumstances assets would only be transferred at death when of course there is no charge to capital gains tax as death is not treated as a disposal for capital gains tax purposes. Furthermore, he has long held the view that higher rates of capital gains tax discourage people from taking risks through investing their money in new ventures since the higher rate would lead to the erosion of so much of the gain. The new 20 per cent rate of tax has led to earlier disposals of assets than would otherwise have been the case as well as encouraging assets holders to dispose of assets which would otherwise have been locked in. This should lead to assets being in the hands of the types of people who are likely to use them most effectively to the advantage of the broader economy.

The Minister's rationale for reducing the rate of capital gains tax was to assist in the creation of an environment more conducive to the development of an enterprise culture. A dynamic enterprise culture, particularly in the new technologies sector, will be critically important for our continued economic well-being in the century which we are about to enter. We have extremely favourable economic conditions prevailing at present, a situation that has been greatly assisted by good policy choices in recent years. We should not forget, however, that throughout much of this century the economy failed to keep pace with what was happening elsewhere. Therefore, we cannot allow ourselves to become complacent and take enterprise for granted. It is not something that will happen in a vacuum without reference to an environment and a structure to provide capital is an essential ingredient of that environment.

Enterprise cannot flourish without adequate arrangements for the provision of capital. The lower rate of tax on capital gains that the Government has introduced provides an appropriate incentive for people to invest their capital in new undertakings that will lead to the creation of employment opportunities in the future. The lower rate also facilitates existing small and medium sized enterprises in attracting risk capital to help them grow new lines of business and develop existing activities. As I mentioned earlier, the unlocking of business assets as a result of the 20 per cent rate is likely to result in those assets coming into the hands of people who are more likely to use them to best effect.

I would like to set out for the House some of the principles that apply to our capital gains tax regime. First, it applies on the disposal of assets and is separate from the income tax regime. Our system incorporates arrangements for the indexation of the cost base for capital gains so that taxation is not applied to inflation. Other features of the system are that there is no capital gains tax imposed at death, nor is the principal private residence of an individual subject to the tax. The regime, of course, also contains roll-over relief for business assets, such as land, buildings, plant and machinery. This aspect of the system means that capital gains tax is deferred if the proceeds from the disposal of a business asset are reinvested in a new business asset within three years of the disposal. The tax position on the gain from the old asset is looked at when the new asset acquired is disposed of and there is not a subsequent reinvestment. This system of roll-over relief encourages reinvestment in the economy and is a desirable measure which encourages entrepreneurs to diversify into new business activities. There is also a special relief for people over 55 which is specifically designed to encourage the transfer of business or farm assets to the younger generation.

In discussing capital gains tax, the fact that income from an asset is subject to taxation under the income tax regime is quite often conveniently overlooked. In this regard there are, of course, exceptions allowed under legislation, for example, in the case of pension funds. It should always be remembered that providing capital usually involves taking on a risk. In general, investors will expect to see a higher overall return on the capital they have provided where there is a high risk involved in the investment.

I would now like to deal with the arrangements under the capital gains tax code for development land. In November 1997, the Minister for housing and urban renewal commissioned a study on the housing market from the consultancy firm of Peter Bacon and Associates. The report, which was the output of this study, was received in April 1998. A number of important recommendations were made, including some in the taxation area. Arising from these recommendations the Government acted quickly and introduced the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1998, which changed the tax code in a number of respects in order to improve the efficiency of the housing market. The stamp duty regime was revised by a rationalisation of the number of rates and reductions in rates on lower value properties. However, of particular relevance to our discussion here is that a key alteration was made in respect of the taxation treatment of land which is earmarked for housing. As a special concession a 20 per cent rate of capital gains tax, instead of the usual 40 per cent rate, is levied on land which has full or outline planning permission or which is sold to a housing authority. The 1999 Finance Act extended this concession so that it applies to land that is zoned for residential development under a county development plan. Senators will note that it is not necessary for the land to enjoy full planning permission in order to qualify for the 20 per cent rate. The rationale for these amendments was to encourage land holders to sell land for housing so as to speed up the development of land for housing purposes and thereby increase the supply of accommodation. As Senators will be aware, the key issue in the housing market is the imbalance between the demand for, and the supply of, houses.

The capital acquisitions tax regime was introduced in 1976 as part of a package of capital taxes which replaced the old estate duties regime. The tax applies to gifts and inheritances. Capital acquisitions tax, including inheritance tax, operates in accordance with categories which are based on the degree of relationship between the person who gave the property – who is known as the disponer – and the recipient. The underlying principle is that the closer the relationship the higher the threshold. In accordance with this principle transfers between spouses are completely exempt from the tax.

Class I covers transfers from parents to children, minor children of a deceased child and children to parents. The threshold for this category during the current tax year is £192,900. It should be noted that the threshold of £192,900 applies to each child. Class II covers transfers between grandparents and their grandchildren, transfers between brothers and sisters, and transfers to nieces and nephews. The threshold for this class is £25,720 at present. Class III covers all other transfers and has a threshold of £12,860.

The rates of taxation apply to amounts in excess of the threshold and are graduated upwards from 20 per cent to 40 per cent. In the case of gifts received by the beneficiary, the rate of tax is reduced by one-quarter compared to the rate for inheritances. Senators should also be aware that the system includes aggregation so that gifts or inheritances received since 2 December 1988 are taken into account when computing the liability for capital acquisitions tax.

Relief from capital acquisitions tax has been available to the agricultural sector since the tax was introduced in 1976. To avail of the relief a farmer must have 80 per cent of his assets in agricultural assets after the gift or inheritance. Since 1997 the value of the gift or inheritance is reduced by 90 per cent for the purposes of calculating the liability to tax. The special relief for agricultural property takes account of the fact that the market value of such property often does not take cognisance of the actual economic return from the property.

Similar reliefs for the transfer of family businesses were subsequently introduced in the 1994 budget with a 50 per cent relief on the first £250,000 of business assets and 25 per cent relief on the balance. In the budget of 1995 the relief was increased to a flat 50 per cent on all qualifying assets. In 1996 the relief was increased to 75 per cent and the 1997 budget set it at the current 90 per cent, similar to the level applying for agricultural relief.

Business relief is available for property consisting of a business or an interest in a business, unquoted shares in Irish companies subject to certain conditions, and quoted shares in Irish companies which were owned by the disponer prior to their quotation. To qualify for business relief, a beneficiary must fulfil one of three conditions – he or she must hold more than 25 per cent of the voting rights of the company; or the beneficiary holds a percentage of the issued shares of the company and the company is controlled by the beneficiary and his or her relatives; or the beneficiary holds at least 10 per cent of the company and has worked full-time in the company for five years prior to the transfer.

An ownership period must also be satisfied in order to qualify for the relief. The assets, which are the subject of the transfer, must have been owned by the disponer or his spouse for at least five years prior to the transfer. In the case of a transfer arising on the death of the disponer, the five year period is reduced to two years.

There is also a clawback provision attaching to business relief. The clawback applies if, within six years, the business ceases to be a qualifying business, or the assets transferred are disposed of and are not replaced by other qualifying assets. If these events occur between six and ten years, one-third of the relief is clawed back.

Business relief under capital acquisitions tax is aimed mainly at small and medium sized businesses. The benefit for larger sized enterprises is less significant. The rationale for the relief is to enable family-owned and operated businesses to transfer to the next generation. If the various conditions attaching to these reliefs are fulfilled, the value of the business for the purposes of the tax is now reduced by 90 per cent, as I mentioned earlier. In these circumstances, in the current year tax would only be applied for assets transferred to a child where the value of the assets is in excess of £1.9 million.

During the debate on the Finance Bill earlier this year, the Minister indicated that he intended to carry out a review of the capital acquisitions tax regime in time for the next budget. Senators will understand that because of the imminence of the budget it would not be appropriate for me, at this juncture, to outline – much as I might like to do so – what the Government intends to do arising from this review.

The Minister has an idea from the motion.

We will all have to wait until next week. I realise that a number of people are encountering difficulties due to the tax bills that they have to meet when they inherit the house they are living in and may have lived in for the greater part of their lives. The aftermath of a bereavement is usually a difficult, stressful period for most people without the additional worry of a taxation problem arising directly from the death.

Capital acquisitions tax has now become a problem because house prices have increased rapidly in most parts of the country, particularly in urban areas, in recent years driven largely by the economic boom. The rate of increase in house prices has been much greater than the consumer price index which is the basis for the indexation of the thresholds I referred to earlier. Various agencies monitor developments in the housing market. The information from those sources is now indicating that the rate of increase is beginning to slow down as the supply of new houses increases.

It is fair to say that people living in the greater Dublin area have probably suffered most from capital acquisitions tax liabilities consequent to the recent inflation in house prices. I am sure, however, Senators will be aware that many people in other parts of the country have also been affected.

This House had a useful discussion on capital acquisitions tax during the debate on the Finance Bill earlier in the year. Several Senators addressed the anomalies that can arise because the current regime fails to make allowance for the different types of relationships that are now relatively common in this country. I assure Senators that the review that has been ordered, will examine different relationship situations and that any resolution will be on the most equitable basis possible. I hope that answers some of the questions raised by Senators.

The capital acquisitions tax code has already been reformed to provide for more generous arrangements for inheritances between brothers and sisters in the case of the family residence. The 1991 Finance Act provided for the special circumstances of elderly siblings living together. Where a house is inherited from a co-sibling the amount of tax payable was reduced. In the 1998 budget this relief was extended so that the value of a house inherited from a co-sibling is reduced by 80 per cent or £150,000, whichever is the lesser. The relief is subject to a number of conditions. For example, the recipient of the house must be 55 years of age or over, the recipient must have lived in the house with the disponer for five years or more before the inheritance and the recipient must not be the beneficial owner or part-owner of any other house. If the various conditions are satisfied then the level of taxation should be reduced greatly or eliminated completely.

Apart from enhancing the position of elderly siblings, the 1998 budget also introduced a new relief for the family residence for other close relatives. This new relief covers inheritances taken by grandchildren or nieces and nephews who have been resident with the disponer. The basis for the relief is linked to the definition which is used for qualification for the class two threshold for capital acquisitions tax. The period that the recipient must co-reside with the disponer is ten years which is more strict than in the case of elderly sibling relief. This can be justified because, unlike elderly sibling relief, there is no age criterion to satisfy in order to qualify for the close relative relief. Similar to the elderly sibling relief, the effect of this relief is to reduce the value of the house by £150,000 or 80 per cent, whichever is the lesser, for the purposes of calculating the tax liability.

I hope that I have demonstrated to Senators that Ministers for Finance in the past have been keenly aware of the business and social environment in which the capital acquisitions tax and capital gains tax codes operate. Where necessary and after due deliberation, the codes have been reshaped to take account of the changing environment. Since coming into office this Government has introduced a number of adjustments which make the regimes much more relevant and effective in a wider socio-economic context. This has been particularly so in the case of capital gains tax. The excellent results of the considerable changes that were introduced two years ago are now becoming clearly visible for all to see. In the case of capital acquisitions tax, a promise was given to review the regime in some detail and this commitment is being honoured. The regime cannot proceed entirely unaltered since it is widely accepted that some features of it are causing distress for far too many people.

Assurances were recently given on behalf of the Minister to Seanad Éireann that he would use his best efforts to find an acceptable resolution. On his behalf I reiterate those assurances this evening.

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed explanation of the position. I wonder whether it was wise for the Fianna Fáil Party to table this motion tonight. I understand that the Minister of State cannot give us details a week before the budget, but based on what he has said there is a danger of raising expectations too much. There is almost a danger of whetting our appetites to the extent that no matter what we get next week we will feel disappointed. Dare I criticise Fianna Fáil for doing this—

The Senator could never be disappointed with a Fianna Fáil budget.

Perhaps not. The Minister of State's speech is a good reminder of what has happened in recent years.

I wish to refer to a term I used in this House in the past, "best management practice". In other words, how one can achieve results in management terms. Two years ago when the Minister for Finance gave a number of reductions in taxation, as Senator Ross said, there were howls of protest from some quarters about helping those who already had money. Looking back on the figures we have seen recently and again today it was a win-win situation in many ways. The reduction of capital gains tax from 40 per cent to 20 per cent has resulted in the State getting more money. It is almost like a grocer reducing prices and selling so much more that he makes more money. We cannot help but admire and encourage that sort of measure. The Minister of State has reminded us of the steps that have already taken place. We should encourage the Government to continue to seek ways to achieve a win-win result – to find ways to reduce taxation in order to gain more money for the State.

I will outline one or two issues that should be considered – the Minister of State has touched on them already. The 20 per cent reduction in capital gains tax on development land for residential purposes until 5 April 2002 seems to be a well thought out. It is to encourage the development of land and to help reduce house prices. It will help avoid the situation where those who have land will sit on it for a long period. They will only be able to take up this offer of a 20 per cent reduction if they act before 5 April 2002 – after the rate will jump to 60 per cent. It is a great idea but is the timeframe too short? Perhaps we should consider extending this scheme.

The second point that has been made to me is the calculation of gains on the disposal of quoted shares. Senator Ross touched on this issue earlier. The point was made to me that there is an involved rule of first in first out. This means difficult and involved calculations are necessary to ensure the State is able to discover what rate should be charged on capital gains in that area. Could this be another win-win situation if we simplified this tax regime and thereby gained more?

I dislike paying money to accountants and lawyers, and it seems that the vast majority of us do not want to do that – I am sure I am in good company when saying that. Accountants and lawyers should be used to concentrate on increasing and helping to increase the wealth of the nation rather than spending their time trying to avoid tax. There have been some examples of this in the past. We should work towards solutions based on simplifying the tax regime. The Minister has gone quite a distance in doing so already and I say that in order to encourage him to consider more changes.

A strong case has been made in the past that the taxation system costs individuals so much in payments to accountants and lawyers that if we were able to save that money and put it into wealth creation it would be far better for the nation. The Minister of State referred in detail to such an involved system for capital acquisitions tax, particularly in regard to the family home. The qualifying criterion for CAT relief seems very involved – the recipient of the house must be 55 years of age or over, must have lived in the house with the disponer for five years or more and another element relates to the value of the house being reduced by £150,000 or 80 per cent. These conditions seem very involved.

The answer to the problem of capital acquisitions tax on family homes is probably that outlined by Senators Ross and Norris. The only answer is to abolish tax on family homes. I hope the promises of which I got a hint from the Minister of State and the expectations created for next week include the possibility that the family home should not be taxed on any basis.

I have received letters from individuals drawing my attention to their difficulties. Senator Ross spoke about people of the same gender in a relationship who have lived together for 50 years. When one partner dies, the other cannot live in their home any longer. I know of a daughter who came home from England to look after her mother. Their house has increased significantly in value and she will have great difficulty paying tax on the death of her mother. What happens if it is not a daughter but a niece or if there is no relationship? This presents another problem.

I received a letter referring to a report in The Irish Times in November which stated the Government would ease tax on inherited homes. It states:

If that appears in The Irish Times, then the forthcoming budget will contain an outrageous injustice against partners who are not married. This would represent a serious form of discrimination, which, I am sure could be challenged in the courts or in Europe. What I am talking about is the position where a partner in a relationship dies, leaving the family home to the survivor and the survivor, who is treated as a stranger by the Revenue, has to pay a massive sum in tax for the privilege of inheriting his or her home.

I know the individual who wrote that letter. He split from his wife and two new families were created without a divorce taking place. There is a good relationship between the previous husband and wife. However, on their deaths, the new families they have with their other partners will be unable to stay in their homes without paying a huge amount of tax. Having listened to Senator Norris and the other cases mentioned, the only solution to the problem is to abolish the tax on family homes.

The Minister gave details of the acceptable 90 per cent tax relief on farms. This applies only if the inheritance is reinvested in farming. When this measure was introduced a few years ago, it seemed sensible, realistic and worthy. If the family farm is passed on to the son, he only has to pay 10 per cent tax. However, recent developments in farming will result in fewer farms and fewer people working on them. Perhaps in the long term, this is no longer a fair and justifiable tax and is not in the best interest of the State. The relief of 90 per cent is worthy but the limitation which means the inheritance must be reinvested in the farm should be reconsidered in the light of developments in farming.

Senator Norris referred to human rights and we are discussing that most important issue – the family home. The only answer is to be generous and fair and in doing so to avoid the accusation that we are infringing human rights. We should follow the recommendations of Senators Ross and Norris and abolish the tax on family homes.

With the widest definition of family.

Of course. Senator Norris was not here when I made that point. I am referring to the home in general. This Minister understands business and how to achieve a win-win situation. He has gone some way in achieving a reduction in tax rates which result in greater take home pay. We must encourage the Minister to do more in this direction because enough has not been done. I welcome the motion and the amendment which encourages the Minister to continue moving in the same direction. I hope there will be good news in this regard next Wednesday. The tabling of this motion by Fianna Fáil has been worthwhile. However, I also support the advice given and criticisms made by Senators from this side who encouraged the Minister to move further than he has already.

I welcome the Minister to the House. This debate is timely and almost seems like a warm-up session for what will happen in the other House next Wednesday. In the old days, I would not have been one of those advocating a reduction in capital gains tax or taxes of that nature. At the time of the foundation of our party, one of our major concerns was the level of taxation on work. We said we were taxing work as if it was a luxury. I am happy that in the interim and over a series of budgets there has been a dramatic reduction in income tax. This has been one of the factors in the increase in employment and our current prosperity. Normally I am concerned about narrowing our tax base, taking it from capital and putting it on work. However, I have no doubt that the issue of inheritance tax must be looked at urgently. I hope this will be done comprehensively and radically in the budget next week.

Whatever the justification for the introduction of that tax, there is no justification for its retention in the times in which we now live because of the rapid increase in property values in recent times. The burden now imposed because of the inheritance tax was never envisaged when it was introduced. There is a perception abroad that this burden falls mainly on people who own property in Dublin. That is not the case. It may be true that the problem is more acute in Dublin but that is not to say the problem is not real and acute in other parts of the country, particularly in urban areas such as Cork, Limerick and Galway. The problem of inheritance tax is of equal concern to residents in those areas.

The test of any tax regime is whether it is fair. This inheritance tax cannot be seen to be fair by any yardstick in the times in which we now live. Ordinary people on ordinary incomes are living in family homes which have increased in value beyond their expectations when they were bought. Therein lies the dilemma. In circumstances of bereavement these people are confronted with a situation where the home about to be passed on has dramatically increased in value. That is the crux of the matter and is why it must be looked at. I have thought long and hard about this and looked at the adjustments and improvements made over the years. Property values are too difficult to predict and take on board in a scale of taxation. The only fair and equitable way to deal with this problem is to abolish entirely and unconditionally all inheritance tax on the principal private residence. There are a number of reasons this must be done. One is the difficulty involved in trying to work out a sliding scale that is fair, just and equitable. If this difficulty cannot be successfully confronted, it is the hallmark of bad law which must be abolished.

Another point is how society at the end of the century seeks to define the family. This is pertinent to this debate. A gross injustice exists when two people of different genders or the same gender, such as two sisters – I know what I am talking about in this regard – are joint owners of a property and have made equal contributions towards its purchase. I know sisters who bought houses in the 1970s when mortgage interest rates were 17 per cent or 18 per cent and the tax on relatively modest incomes was as high as 53 per cent or 54 per cent. They jointly bought houses under those circumstances but, under the current regulations, if one of the sisters passed away tomorrow, the other would have to go to the bank and borrow money to pay the inheritance tax and ensure continuity of ownership. This cannot be fair or just.

When defining the family, such cases must be taken into consideration. Not everybody fits into the neat categories of being married or having children. People who are not married and who do not have children should also have rights. They have rights under the Constitution, but they must be acknowledged when we are making arrangements regarding inheritance tax. Some people do not have children of their own but they would like to leave a family home to a niece or nephew whom they consider a close blood relative, although he or she is not a direct lineal relative. It is grossly unfair under the current arrangements regarding inheritance tax to penalise a young nephew or niece who inherits a home which may have been in the family for generations. This must be examined.

Other speakers outlined a number of anecdotal stories involving daughters who gave up jobs to mind an elderly parent and who, when the parent died, found they had no option but to sell the family home because they could not raise enough money to pay the State's demands under the banner of inheritance tax. I hope I have reinforced the key point that the only way to deal with the problem is to remove the primary family home from the inheritance tax net.

I have no doubt that the Senator will support our amendment.

The Minister must be allowed some flexibility in the budget.

That is the message I want to pass on to the Minister and I am optimistic that justice will be done in this area.

That is the line.

It is a worrying problem for people who are ageing. Many of them are wondering from where they will get the money to keep themselves in nursing homes if they have to go into one. All these factors must be taken into consideration because Ireland has an ageing population. I appeal to the Minister to use his influence to ensure that the issues raised by all sides, which are based on justice and common sense, are taken into account in next Wednesday's budget.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. The issue of capital gains and inheritance tax is serious and it is vital that the Government addresses the defects and anomalies in this area in the forthcoming budget. I am particularly concerned about the amount of capital acquisitions tax that can fall due when a child inherits the family home.

The Minister for Finance would be concerned at the loss of revenue to the Exchequer if he raised the exemption limits but, at a time of unprecedented revenue, he has a golden opportunity to ensure equality in relation to inheritance tax. Some people might argue that increasing thresholds would only benefit those who receive a substantial inheritance. However, this view misses the key point that if the inheritance is the family home, it is not an option to sell it to pay the inheritance tax bill to the Revenue Commissioners.

Why should people suffer because the thresholds have not been increased in line with house prices? I remind Senators that the phenomenon of increased house prices is not confined to Dublin and the major cities. In my county, towns such as Clonmel, Cashel, Tipperary, Thurles and Nenagh have experienced significant increases in house prices. These increases have significantly outstripped increases in the exemption limits. If a son or daughter inherits a family home, having taken care of his or her parents, it is unacceptable that the State should seek to take an unfair share of their well earned inheritance. In many cases, these people would not have access to the money that would be needed to buy the house at current market prices. In some instances, they have sacrificed earning power to take care of their ageing parents.

There are still many cases in rural areas of siblings living together. For example, if a man dies and his sister who lived with him inherits the home, why should she have to pay inheritance tax at a higher rate than a son or daughter would have to pay? The Minister must address this anomaly. The current threshold places an onerous taxation demand on beneficiaries such as brothers and sisters. The Minister should carry out a total review in this area and put in place a fair and equitable system which takes full account of family circumstances and current property values.

The Constitution mentions the importance of people in Irish life. We as politicians have a duty to those people to treat them fairly and not to seek to take unfair advantage of them through an inequitable system of inheritance tax. Sorting out this problem would not be looking after a small group of privileged people, but giving fair play to ordinary people who inherit family homes. The increased revenue from this tax in recent years was unexpected. It was part of the general buoyancy in revenue. It is bad practice to consider such revenue as part of standard revenue and the matter should be redressed by the adjustment of the thresholds, to which I look forward.

I acknowledge that in recent years great strides have been taken in relation to agricultural relief and the price of farm land. The multiplicity system is effective and welcome, but some people still fall within these limits. I urge the Minister in next Wednesday's budget to recognise those with qualifications at a time when large numbers are leaving the land. It is difficult to entice young people to work on the land. The agricultural industry is suffering as a result of this. People who must pay taxation should be given approximately ten years to pay, particularly qualified farm managers, because these people are now inheriting property from uncles and so on. In some instances people who work with farmers are inheriting the property. I urge the Minister to do something to encourage these people for the sake of the agriculture industry. We have heard already about the effects this is having on the business sector. It is good for any industry or business if it is handed over earlier rather than later. I support and second Senator Doyle's amendment.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I support the motion and would like to make a few brief points on it.

I made an appeal last year to the Minister for Finance during the course of the Finance Bill. On previous occasions I made similar appeals. Fortunately, these appeals are now being listened to. The greatest inequity is that facing an elderly brother and sister living together in a house which has acquired enormous capital value because when the owner of the property dies and leaves the property to the surviving brother or sister, they are then subjected to a horrendous bill for inheritance tax. In many circumstances, these people do not have any other liquid assets. They may have other assets of a limited nature but their greatest asset by far is the family home. I do not believe it was ever the intention that people in this category should be penalised.

The Minister can accurately point to increases in the thresholds which were indexed on the basis of inflation from a certain point. However, this is not good enough. We all know that the value of property has inflated at a much greater rate than the rate of inflation. To use the rate of inflation as the measure by which to establish the increases in allowances is not an adequate concession. There should be an exemption for people who live together. I agree that the family home should be exempt. However, I am not sure that tax should not be paid on property bequeathed to a non-relation or to nieces or nephews. I would very much like if the family home were exempt and it did not matter to whom it was bequeathed, whether it be to a charitable organisation, the church, a first cousin or, dare one say, a mistress. Not that that would arise. Senator Norris made the point about partners. Perhaps this is how the matter should be treated, that there should be a residency requirement.

I recall when death duties were in operation there was a system whereby if one made a lifetime transfer and survived for a specified period of three or five years, one became exempt. There is a message in this for the State. Everything possible should be done to encourage lifetime transfer of businesses, farms and property. The tax regime should be such as to facilitate this measure. I note that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, is present and I am sure he would agree with the proposition that if there is a lifetime transfer of a farm within the farm family, a taxation liability should not arise. In the present climate this measure is required if business is to be kept intact.

The example of capital gains tax is relevant in this respect. Where the rate was reduced from 40 per cent to 20 per cent, it had the effect of freeing up capital. This is a significant factor in terms of our present economic growth. I believe a lot of dead money was lying around which was released when the rate was reduced. When the Progressive Democrats first proposed a reduction in personal rates of taxation, the standard response was that this would mean a reduction in the services the State could provide, that people would suffer in relation to the health service, education and so on because less money would be accruing to the Exchequer. The opposite has happened. A reduction in capital taxes and income taxes generates more activity and more revenue. The other side of the coin is that dependency in terms of money expended by way of social welfare payments and so on is also reduced. We now see the effects of this. I am not saying this is the only factor which has created the present favourable economic climate, but it is certainly one factor.

Another circumstance needs to be taken into account. There have been instances of people making lifetime transfers of a family business or a home. The lifetime transfer was from the parent to the child and the child became the title owner to the property. In one instance I know of the child predeceased the parent and the estate reverted to the parent who originally made the transfer. In those circumstances there is virtually no allowance. It is treated as if the person was not related. This occurs in a limited number of cases but it should be looked at.

We must consider the fact that property values are inflating at a much greater rate than the level of inflation. Even in country towns the bequest of the family home can lead to a significant tax liability. This was not the intention of the legislation. I hope in the imminent budget the Minister for Finance will take these genuine concerns on board and treat the issue in a humane and equitable manner in order to relieve the hardships which occur.

There are many angles to the issue of capital acquisitions tax. Many of them have been clearly put to us. There are important issues such as the collection of taxes and the fair payment of taxes, etc. There is also a great element of inequity in how this is perceived by the ordinary person. There is the question of whether people are married or unmarried and their sense of commitment to their property. There are great difficulties for people who have committed themselves to each other and who own, manage or live in a property together, but who for legal purposes have been seen as strangers. The reality is that there is a massive tax liability if one partner dies and cannot leave the home to the surviving family. That is the reality and Members are aware that it happens. The tax liabilities which arise can impoverish people. We have reached the stage where people have no choice but to sell what for them was, or is, the family home. Any fair minded person would see that as outrageous.

The other side of the argument has been stated, namely, how do we proceed in a way that will be fair to everybody? Fairness must be written into law and it must recognise the various arrangements that are acceptable to the owners of properties. In that context, the will, inclination and stated view of the owners of properties should be taken into consideration in terms of the relationship with the people who are in receipt of it. As they stand, our tax laws on inheritance have major implications for all taxpayers and their effects can be devastating. Members have received representations from people who have witnessed those effects. In this city alone, there are many roads which contain houses and residences which are both attractive and expensive. In some instances, there would be a significant minority of people living in those houses who could not afford to buy them if they were only setting out in life. For example, there might be a couple in a relationship which is recognised by the State as strangers in law. In the event of one of their deaths, the transfer of the property to the remaining partner, which should be easy, does not take place. This matter does not merely involve the loss of the friend, partner or person with whom a home has been established, it also involves a number of outrageous financial implications.

When the friendly capital acquisitions tax was introduced in 1974 or 1975, it was put in place in order that people who owned a great deal of property and wealth would be obliged to pay a certain amount to level the playing field in terms of taxation and redistribute wealth. With the way property prices have increased in the meantime, that is no longer the case. When the tax was introduced, most of the people who are now concerned about it were not aware that it could affect them. Many of the people who suffer most from the effects of this tax do not become aware of its existence until they are bereaved and suddenly find themselves with a huge financial burden which requires them to sell the family home. That cannot be right.

A person's principal private residence should be entirely exempt from capital acquisitions tax and probate tax liability. Anyone who has considered the kind of personal circumstances in which people find themselves and which have given rise to this debate, would say that this should not be the case. We must look at this matter from the point of view of the people. I recall the words of John Healy many years ago, "We are not running a corporation here, we are running a country which has real people in it who are dealing with real things."

I am not proposing that the wealthy should be given access to a loophole which would allow them to avoid paying tax. I am concerned about people who come into ownership of a property which, in a sense, they always felt partly belonged to them. We must consider the position of children and partners. The children of deceased parents, particularly minors, should be maintained by means of a parental trust which would arise from the wealth offered by the ownership of a property.

As it stands, it is not possible for the owner of a property to pass it on to people with whom they believe they share that ownership; these people believe their property is held in a form of shared ownership. The State does not recognise that and sees them as strangers at law. Members speaking on this motion believe that to be an inequity, that it is unfair and that it should be changed.

The Minister may not accept all the points we are making. However, we are not saying we want to move from A to Z in one step. We must recognise and agree that capital acquisitions tax and inheritance tax, as they stand, are unacceptable and that we find ourselves in an untenable position. The position in law must be changed. Many people who are left property of which they believed themselves to be owners or part owners are facing huge debts as a result of the effects of capital acquisitions tax. The only way these people can meet the debt they owe to the State is to sell that which they believed was their home. That cannot be right.

On that basis, it is certain that the legislation governing this area must be changed. I accept that other arguments can be put forward in respect of the complex point I have been making, but there is no doubt that the current situation is unjust. The law must be changed because there are people in relationships who are concerned about this matter. The first divorce case in this country arose from concerns about the legislation governing this area and the person involved wanted to recognise, in the disposal of his property, the partner with whom he believed he shared his life.

I appeal to the Minister to consider this matter in an open way and to try to deal with the issues we have raised in a way which will lead to a change in the legislation governing capital acquisitions tax. I will have specific proposals and recommendations in that regard if the Minister displays an openness in responding to our concerns.

I am glad I tabled this motion and I am extremely impressed by the keen interest Members have shown. This was evident from their well informed and passionate contributions, for which I commend them.

I fully respect the right of the Opposition to table amendments. However, I respectfully suggest that, while debating the motion has been extremely useful and has given Members the opportunity to offer their views to the Minister for Finance before the budget, it is inappropriate for the House to direct the Minister in respect of the contents of that budget. In those circumstances, the amendments may be unhelpful.

As already stated, Deputy McCreevy has been the most reforming Minister for Finance in the past 25 years. That fact was acknowledged by Members on the opposite side of the House this evening. Therefore, I suggest that to use the word "condemn" in one of the amendments to the motion is, to some extent, inappropriate. The Minister of State made an extremely positive contribution and I suggest the Opposition should withdraw its amendments in the interests of harmony and in acknowledgement of the fact that the Minister for Finance has introduced many reforms since entering office. This House cannot dictate nor would it be appropriate that anybody could dictate to the Minister the detail of his budget prior to its announcement in the other House. However, the opportunity has been presented by our party. I agree with many of the views that have come from the other side of the House. There was very little conflict in the contributions made in any section of the House except, of course, for the Left who do not attend any debate on capital acquisitions, inheritance or capital gains taxes, which are unhealthy and unworthy words and phrases as far as the Left are concerned. They do not live in the real world most of the time. The parties of the centre and those in Government have to deal with the realities of life and with what is necessary to a growing and expanding economy.

I recall one instance concerning capital gains tax. I remember the view of the Left two years ago when this matter was dealt with by the Minister for Finance. He reduced capital gains tax on residential land for building from 40 per cent to 20 per cent. That was condemned utterly by the Left at that time. They held their hands up in horror that we were patronising and filling the pockets of the developers, the builders and the money men and that the Exchequer was going to lose massive amounts of money. Will they be pleased or disappointed to find out that the return to the Exchequer is massively in excess of what has been predicted? While the figure has not been made publicly known yet, I understand it to be in the region of £300 million.

The Minister for Finance not alone made decisions that were helpful to the economy and to the housing situation at that time, but his foresight and understanding of the economics of this country are well respected and understood by the business and financial institutions. I have no doubt that he will continue to do that good work over the period of this Government.

I respectfully suggest to both the Fine Gael Party and Independent Members that they withdraw their amendments as pressing them will not benefit the causes they are pursuing. The Minister has been positive in his response. There has been an opportunity for a lively debate and for everybody to make their contributions. The Minister listens and has listened in the best interests of the country. I reiterate the amendments cannot be accepted or supported by the Government because we, as a House, cannot direct the Mini ster on the detail of his budget. Therefore, I suggest that the two amendments be withdrawn.

Amendment put.

Caffrey, Ernie.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.McDonagh, Jarlath.

Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Quinn, Feargal.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.Leonard, Ann.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ridge and Taylor-Quinn; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

After "budget" to add "and in particular, to exempt from inheritance tax, persons who inherit the house in which they ordinarily live (as their primary residence), to significantly increase the class thresholds, and to reform capital acquisitions tax to encourage the early transfer of family farms and family businesses."

I second the amendment.

Is it being pressed?

Yes, given that all Members spoke about exempting the family home.

Amendment put.

Caffrey, Ernie.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.McDonagh, Jarlath.

Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Quinn, Feargal.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.Leonard, Ann.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ridge and Taylor-Quinn; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the motion be agreed to".

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.Leonard, Ann.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Níl
Caffrey, Ernie.
Connor, John.
Coogan, Fintan.
Cosgrave, Liam T.
Cregan, Denis (Dino).
Doyle, Joe.
Hayes, Maurice.
Henry, Mary.
Jackman, Mary.
McDonagh, Jarlath.

Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Quinn, Feargal.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Ridge and Taylor-Quinn.
Question declared carried.

On a point of order, this morning the Order of Business was left incomplete as to when we would finish this evening's business. I now wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business and, with your indulgence Sir, I will explain why. We on this side of the House are prepared to proceed with the Bill to the end of Part IV. We believe that Part V, which deals with social housing, is one of the crucial parts of the Bill. We do not believe it is fair to people who have been in the House since 10.30 a.m. to ask them to sit through another five or six hours.

Apart from the inconvenience to Members, the subject matter is of such intrinsic importance that we believe it should be considered fresh on another day. We will accommodate the Government side of the House in discussing Part V tomorrow or any day next week to ensure that there can be a full debate. I propose that the Order of Business be amended, that the Bill be taken to the end of Part IV and that the House then adjourn.

On a point of order and on the proposal made by Senator Manning, there are approximately 200 more sections of the Bill to be dealt with. The idea that we could rush through the Bill to conclude it tonight is impossible. It is important that those of us who are in the business of trying to create an operational system in the House representing different groups have to work together carefully. People should recognise that it is impossible to deal with 200 sections this evening – if we allow four minutes for division bells on the possible votes, never mind the time for discussion, the time required for voting would be approximately 13 hours. It is an impossibility. We must work together or not at all.

I do not wish to tax the Chair's indulgence on this matter. We want to make progress and we recognise that the Leader of the House has difficulties and that the Minister is under pressure to get the Bill through this House. Part V of the Bill has been the subject of major discussion at all levels outside the House. We need to show a positive example of co-operation and partnership in doing our business.

I second the amendment to the Order of Business as proposed by Senator Manning. Completing Part IV tonight is a very reasonable objective to achieve and we should try to do so. I appeal to the Leader of the House to agree to this proposal or we will continue to argue and get nothing done. Let us not have a row about this, let us accept this proposal.

I have allowed considerable latitude to both Senator Manning and Senator O'Toole. I must point out that the Chair is bound by the Order of Business as agreed in the House this morning. Senator Manning, as a former Leader of the House, will be aware that I cannot take such an amendment to the Order of Business. No precedent exists for the acceptance of an amendment to the Order of Business—

We could create one.

—other than one moved by the Leader of the House.

Can the Leader do that?

The way in which we deal with the planning Bill could do good for the name of the House. Will the Leader of the House, in the interests of all Members, propose an amendment to Standing Orders along the lines which I have proposed and Senator O'Toole has seconded?

Senator Manning wishes the Leader to propose an amendment to the Order of Business.

With the other group leaders, party whips and many other Senators, I have tried tirelessly to reach a satisfactory conclusion on this matter. I thank the group leaders, the Senators and members of staff who tried to resolve the matter of dealing with the Bill.

We have discussed Committee Stage of this Bill for 25 hours. It took us two days to deal with Second Stage of the Bill. We are prepared to provide as many more hours as are needed to complete the Bill tonight.

Mr. Ryan

That is outrageous, it shows no respect for the House at all.

Members on all sides have spoken about the importance of this Bill and having it in place as quickly as possible. We hope to complete Committee Stage this evening and discuss the remaining Stages next week. It is of vital importance that the Bill be passed by this House as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.

The Minister, I am sure everyone will agree, has been most flexible, helpful and co-operative on this Bill and has been here to deal with every query on it, which is his duty.

So have I.

That should be recorded and noted. I have known him for many years and he would not seek to have the Bill expedited if it was not absolutely necessary. It is the Government's intention, as Members are aware, to have the Bill passed so that the issue of social housing can be addressed and housing can be increased as soon as possible.

I want to put a compromise to the House that all sections of the Bill be taken tonight with the exception of Part V which will be taken on Friday. I hope that is agreeable to the House.

On a point of order, Senator Manning's proposal should have been seconded prior to the Leader of the House speaking. I wish to take the opportunity to second that proposal. Those of us who have been in the House for those 25 hours discussing the Bill have tried to be helpful. We have suggested modifications many of which, in fairness to the Minister, he has taken on board or has proposed to address on Report Stage.

This is one of the most serious Bills to come before this House in the last few years. It is an excellent Bill. It is our job to ensure that the Bill when passed is a good one. We have been here since 10.30 a.m. discussing this Bill. If the Leader is interested in ensuring that the Bill is properly dealt with we should discuss it another day. I will be here tomorrow morning or Friday if the Leader so wishes. It will not make any difference to the social need of people for housing if we have to wait another 12 or 24 hours. This is an important Bill and we are trying to be helpful. It should be dealt with at a proper time and we should not be kept here until all hours of the night when people are tired and have worked hard all day. Let us deal with it tomorrow or early next week.

I wish to make a point of order in support of my colleagues. We have been here since early this morning. Some of us have been here continuously without a break – 90 per cent of the amendments are in my name and those of my colleagues. I have to move those amendments. How am I technically supposed, at this hour of the night, to deal with these amendments, some of which are grouped? We have to consult the Bill to find out what sections are being related. It is nonsense and it is inhuman. I appeal to the Leader and the Minister not to put us through this. There will be trouble on this matter.

There are 21 other Parts of the Bill, besides Part V which deals with social housing, which deal with environmental impact assessments and An Bord Pleanála and other very important matters. We, on this side of the House, have been as reasonable as we can and the Minister has been very flexible in his response. We are doing an excellent job on this important legislation. The Leader has constantly extolled the Government to initiate legislation in this House. He is doing the Bill and the House a disservice by treating this legislation in this way. It is not fair to suggest that 21 Parts of the Bill could be dealt with in one evening. We have already spent 25 hours on this Bill. If it takes another 25 hours, in the proper sitting time of the House to deal with the Bill, so be it. That is the proper way to deal with the Bill. I wish to appeal to the Leader on behalf of the staff also.

In the interests of common sense, the good name of the House and good temper all round I ask the Leader to accept my proposal, seconded by Senator O'Toole. It will ensure that business is done in an orderly way and that the Bill receives the treatment it deserves. We can then go about our business as we wish rather than create a situation whereby we end up doing things we do not want to do.

There are 30 sections between section 48 and the end of Part IV, not to mention the amendments. To deal with that tonight will require a great deal of business and movement. That is almost impossible in terms of an objective. We are proposing that we work together to try to achieve that objective. It meets the needs of the Minister and those of the House and I ask the Leader to recognise that he is pushing the boat out in getting as much as possible done. One could not expect to get any more than that. It is now 8.45 p.m. and it will take hours to get through 30 additional sections, apart from the amendments. I ask the Cathaoirleach to accept that it is a reasonable amendment.

Senator Manning's proposal is an amendment to the Order of Business and is not about changing it. The Order of Business was that we would continue the Bill after 8 p.m. and the amendment simply proposes the time at which we can conclude. In that sense, I am seconding a procedural motion and it should be put to the House.

Has the Leader anything he wishes to add?

I propose to adjourn the House for ten minutes.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 8.40 p.m. and resumed at 8.50 p.m.

I wish to withdraw the proposal I made earlier. I propose that we continue this evening until we finish Part IV of the Bill, as has been suggested by Senators Manning and O'Toole, and come back on Friday to conclude the Bill.

At what time?

At 10.30 a.m. on Friday.

Is the amendment to the Order of Business, as proposed by the Leader, agreed?

Sadly it is not, a Chathaoirligh. We agree to the first part of it but we do not agree to sit on Friday. A Friday sitting was not scheduled for this week. Spokespersons have made other arrangements for Friday and it is not fair at this stage to ask them.

What we are saying is we are prepared to take this Bill any day or every day next week. If the Minister is not available, he has an experienced junior Minister in his Department who is a member of the Cabinet and quite capable of taking the Bill for him. We want to be helpful but this was not part of the Order of Business for the week, as indicated by the Whips. We are happy to agree to take up to the end of Part IV this evening but we are not prepared to accept the proposal that we sit on Friday for this simply because notice has not been given. We are prepared to sit all any day or as many days next week as are necessary to do it properly.

I suggest that we deal with the proposal of the Leader in two parts. I suggest that the first part, that we take up to the end of Part IV tonight, should be agreed by the House. The outstanding bit should not be dealt with here and now.

I appeal to the Leader to let us agree to that bit now and put that to a vote. Then we have today and tomorrow to sort out the problems beyond that.

That is a matter for the Leader of the House.

I accept that proposal.

We have a proposal that we sit until the completion of Part IV tonight.

That proposal is accepted by me but it does not imply any agreement to sit on Friday. I want to indicate now that we do not agree to sit on Friday on this Bill. I certainly accept what is being proposed but it does not imply any further agreement.

I do not think we can agree to sit on Friday. We have not been—

We are not discussing that now, Senator Costello, we are discussing the proposal that the House would resume Committee Stage of the Planning and Development Bill, 1999, and continue until Part IV is completed.

We do not have to plan—

We have not decided that we are not sitting on Friday. I want to state categorically that we are not in agreement with any arrangement other than that for today.

I understood—

Allow me to explain, a Chathaoirligh. What has been proposed by Senator O'Toole is that we would agree to continue until the end of Part IV tonight and then subsequently agree on completing Committee Stage, but what we are saying categorically is that that will not entail sitting on Friday next. The Leader has already indicated that next week we will be sitting from Tuesday to Friday. Therefore, there should be no problem about organising a suitable time next week.

One issue has been resolved and I think the other issue is probably one which would better be resolved elsewhere and not on the floor of the House or we should not attempt to resolve it on the floor of the House. It is a matter which should be reviewed by the Leaders when the debate resumes this evening. We must accept certain realities here. Members have difficulties, the Minister has difficulties and we must try to find some mutually acceptable ground.

It would be my wish that we would dispose of today's business independent of any other arrangements for any other sitting. The proposal in relation to today's business is that we continue Committee Stage of the Planning and Development Bill, 1999, until Part IV is completed. Is that agreed?

A Chathaoirligh, I had indicated that I wished to speak but you may not have seen me do so. There is a danger in this House that all trust will break down. Senator Costello made a valid point. I want clarification about whether we are sitting on Friday. Much depends on what exactly will happen here tonight. Should we be telling people that we are going to sit all night or should we state how late we intend to sit? It is important to members of staff, as well as Members, who probably indicated that they would be home at a certain time. I received an indication from one member of staff that if staff are here until 3 a.m. or 4 a.m., they will not be here at 10.30 a.m. We need clarification on that, but we also need clarification on whether we are sitting on Friday.

I am mindful of the difficulties of the staff and we appreciate the staff's efforts in helping us process legislation in this House.

Hear, hear.

However, it is the duty of the Leader of the House to order the business and I have tried to get a consensus. I have agreed to the proposal to take up to the end of Part IV this evening and to take the remainder of the business on Friday. Should that not be acceptable to the Opposition, then we will go ahead, as planned on the Order of Business, and conclude this Bill tonight no matter how long it takes.

That changes the complexion entirely. Now it is immediate or terrible war if one does not accept. The Leader's reasonable approach a few minutes ago has now broken down completely.

I am always reasonable.

He is saying we accept either a Friday sitting or we will sit all night. As that is the case, then all bets are off. We now do not agree to anything. We would agree to sit until Part IV is completed this evening.

And I am prepared to accept that.

But we are not making that contingent on a Friday sitting. We cannot do that.

Parliament must take precedence over every other business of a Member.

The Leader should hold on a moment. He is being told what to do by the Minister. It is the Minister who has said that he wants this Bill put through over the wishes of the House. That is what is happening. I did not want to say it but the Leader has made me say it. The Minister is saying that he wants this Bill put through, he does not care, because he will be in Stockholm tomorrow and next week and his interests come ahead of the interests of the House. We have been too polite to say that all evening and we have been trying to reach an agreement but the Leader has now forced us to say it.

On a point of order—

There will be no further points of order. I am going to ask—

In an attempt to be helpful, a Chathaoirligh,—

Briefly then, Senator O'Toole.

—under the Standing Orders of the House the Order of Business only stands for the actual day of business. The Leader proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, which was that we would take up to Part IV tonight. Everybody has indicated their difficulties with Friday. I would suggest that has certainly been made quite clear and we should deal with Part IV tonight, then talk about the other aspects when the business is under way and try to sort out when the rest of it will be taken. The only appropriate amendment is the one which seeks to take the Bill to the end of Part IV tonight and I suggest we take that.

I am allowing no further points of order.

Just one. I fully agree with the Leader when he says that Parliament takes precedence over anything else. That is why it is extremely important that the House is seen to order its own business and is not seen to be ordered by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government in the Custom House. Quite frankly, the orders are coming from the ante-room to the Leader and that is not good for this House or for the Oireachtas generally.

On a point of order, I moved a matter on the Adjournment at 4.30 a.m. one morning when the Members opposite were in power. They insisted that we should stay here late, so they should think about that.

That is not a point of order.

The Order of Business was ordered this morning and it should be adhered to.

I call on the Leader to clarify what his proposed amendment to the Order of Business is. I will then put the question to the House.

In an effort to be helpful to all sides of the House, I propose that we complete Part IV of the Bill tonight.

We are not children.

I am putting the question.

No. There is a very simple question here and it is one of trust. Can one believe what one is told by the other side of the House? I am asking a very simple question.

That is not fair and I object to it. When the Senator's party was in power was it not doing the same thing?

There is a very simple question here. Can we believe—

We are wasting time.

We are not wasting time. The point is a very simple one. We have said that we are not prepared to sit on Friday. We are prepared to sit this evening to do this business. The Leader refuses to give us any indication as to his—

I am sorry Senator Manning, that question does not arise now.

I do not want to engage in discussions outside when there is no indication on that point.

If the Senator would bear with me for a moment, we are attempting to clear today's sitting.

On a point of order, perhaps you, a Chathaoirligh, could indicate to me any procedural precedent whereby the business for subsequent days is ordered on a preceding day. Surely we can only order today's business, and what happens subsequently is a matter for another day.

That is correct, Senator.

And what about the business for the week? That is the precedent. We were not notified of any business on next Friday.

The Leader has already said so. He is tying us into something he knows we cannot agree to. Since when is the Minister for the Environment and Local Government the Leader of this House?

On a point of clarification, business has been ordered in the past when there was an allocation of time motion, but there is no such motion before the House now. The only question to be decided by the House is the proposal that has been made by the Leader that we continue with Committee Stage tonight until Part IV has been completed.

We are not children. The Leader mentioned Friday and we are not prepared to sit that day.

There is no mention of Friday in the question that is being put to the House.

Question put: "That the House sit tonight until Part IV of the Bill is completed."

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, John.Dardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.

Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Toole, Joe.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Caffrey, Ernie.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.

McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.Quinn, Feargal.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Ridge and Taylor-Quinn.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn