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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Mar 2000

Vol. 162 No. 19

Shannon River Council Bill, 1998: Committee and Remaining Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

I wish to intervene as it is important, to be fair to all Members of the Seanad, that I outline the Government's position, set out clearly its response to the Shannon River Council Bill and articulate the rationale behind that response.

Having carefully considered the content of the Bill, the Government has decided to oppose it. This decision has nothing to do with narrow political considerations and was not taken because the Government believes that the Bill has no merit. The Government has great sympathy with much of the intent of the Bill but, given the developments in EU and cross-Border contexts to which I will return later—

On a point of order, the time when a decision in principle is taken on a Bill is on Second Stage. The Government accepted the principle of the Bill on Second Stage and we are now improperly told by the Minister of State on Committee Stage that the principle is being rejected.

Senator Manning, the Minister of State is in possession.

If the Senator does not wish me to speak, I have no difficulty with that. I thought it would be helpful to the Seanad if I took this approach.

The Minister of State should speak to the section.

Acting Chairman

The Minister of State has a constitutional right to be heard.

I understand all sides of the Seanad.

Surely the Minister of State agrees that the context is extraordinary.

Acting Chairman

Everyone will have the opportunity to speak.

Given the developments in EU and cross-Border contexts to which I will return later, the Government does not believe that the Bill represents the most effective way of achieving that intent.

Having considered the many contributions to the Second Stage debate on the Bill, it is obvious that it commands considerable support on all sides in the House. The Bill was originally sponsored by my party when we were previously in Opposition. I say that to make the point that the Government's opposition to the Bill is not for the sake of opposition but rather because of developments referred to previously which I will outline later.

The debate is being held against the backdrop of considerable winter flooding along the Shannon and, given the many contributions on the issue made on Second Stage, it would be remiss of me not to mention it. I fully appreciate the considerable inconvenience and distress experienced by people affected by the flooding. However, if the flooding issue is driving the Bill, it is misplaced. The reality is that my office and local authorities already have powers in respect of flooding under existing legislation. However, I do not want to dwell on the issue of flooding but rather want to address the content of the Bill.

All of us here are aware of the range of agencies which have responsibilities for particular aspects of the river and, as with any situation where many agencies have separate and perhaps sometimes conflicting responsibilities, there is always some scope for greater co-ordination. Clearly the Bill in section 6(2) aims to achieve such improved co-ordination between Departments, local and regional authorities, harbour authorities, health boards and other State agencies and companies. The Shannon River Council would have co-ordination and promotion rather than executive functions in the areas of water quality and bird and fish life habitats as well as the regulation and control of pollution. These matters will be substantively addressed through the implementation by the relevant authorities of the Government's Action Programme for the Millennium and the proposed EU Framework Directive on Water Policy.

My colleague, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, has recently advised local authorities to develop outline proposals on an inter-authority basis for appropriate projects for the establishment of catchment-based water monitoring and management systems. Financial assistance at a rate of 85% will be available which will be co-financed by EU funds. It is envisaged that catchment-based project groups, which would initiate and oversee the implementation of water monitoring and management systems, would include Departments, regional and local authorities, State companies, the Central Fisheries Board, regional fisheries boards, health boards, farming, tourism and angling interests and community and environmental groups. The Minister's objective is to have project groups established in the short to medium term for all inland and coastal waters.

A proposed EU Framework Directive on Water Policy is also being developed at EU level which proposes the establishment of catchment-based river basin districts. The proposed directive provides generally for catchment-based, integrated water management, both qualitative and quantitative. Each river basin district would have a comprehensive water management plan to drive and co-ordinate the actions of all relevant authorities in the qualitative and quantitative management of water resources, including rivers, lakes and groundwaters as well as estuarine and coastal waters. The plan would also deal with the protection of aquatic ecosystems and measures to relieve the effects of flood and drought.

In addition to these initiatives, one of the new cross-Border bodies, Waterways Ireland, a statutory body which became operative on 2 December 1999, takes over responsibility for navigation on the River Shannon on Saturday next, 1 April 2000. This is a significant development in the context of improved cross-Border relations and it seems especially inopportune to propose the establishment of another statutory body at this time which would appear significantly to cut across the remit of the new cross-Border body. Since the establishment of these cross-Border bodies, which are part of the British-Irish Agreement, it would not be possible at this stage to transfer responsibility for navigation of the River Shannon to another statutory body. I am sure all Members in the House would accept that.

I wish to reiterate that the Government is not opposed to the achievement of the aims of the Bill but its intent would be more effectively met by either the initiatives in place or those proposed.

The Minister of State has made a Second Stage speech which varies considerably from what was said in the House previously. He stated in his contribution that the Bill was opposed primarily because of a proposed EU directive on water policy. We know a variety of EU directives have been passed and that the Government and its predecessors have been negligent in bringing legislation before either House of the Oireachtas to comply with those directives. It is ludicrous for the Minister of State to oppose the Bill on the grounds of a proposed EU directive which has not yet become an actual directive. There are many EU directives, possibly as many as 20, for which the Government should introduce legislation to comply. Some of them are six or seven years old and legislation to make them law has not yet been introduced.

The other points made by the Minister of State in his speech make the case for passing the Bill and confirm that he should support it. I do not understand why he has not complied with the normal procedure on Committee Stage, which is to respond to the section being dealt with. If he had concerns prior to coming to the House, he had an opportunity to introduce amendments to the Bill to deal with those concerns. He was invited to do so on Second Stage when we introduced the Bill. He failed to table amendments to improve or strengthen the Bill or meet concerns he may have had about its specifics.

This is a political cop-out on the part of the Minister of State. It is disgraceful behaviour. The time of the House has been wasted. Second Stage of the Bill was unopposed and received the full support of this side of the House. It is unfair to Members, especially those who strongly support the terms and essence of the Bill, to ask them to vote against it. It is irresponsible, short-sighted and small-minded on the part of the Minister of State.

We all know, as does the Minister of State, that there are many agencies. Senators who are members of local authorities are fully aware of the responsibilities of local authorities, statutory agencies and semi-State agencies. The Bill deals with that clearly and specifically. The Minister of State has given a weakling speech which is a weasel-minded response to a profound Bill. To add insult to injury, he proposes to vote against a Bill his colleagues proposed in the House four years ago and which was discussed in Government time in the House. He is making a mockery and a laugh of the democratic institutions of the House and of the Oireachtas.

When we are trying to retain the trust and confidence of people in politicians and when we need to be seen to be acting with honesty and integrity in representing the public, this is a very negative turn of events. There is no public explanation for what has happened. I have sat on the Independent benches for 13 years and this is one occasion when I feel tainted by politics. It is often said in pubs that politicians have one view today but they will change their minds tomorrow if it suits them.

Members on both sides of the House dealt honestly with this matter. Some years ago when Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats were in Opposition this legislation was introduced and honest speeches were made. Many people were of the view that it should be progressed. It was drafted in such a way that it did not cause conflict for the Government.

During this session we asked the Government on numerous occasions to introduce the Bill in its name. It was not a cheap political ploy by this side of the House to claim credit for pushing the Bill through the House. I said on many occasions that this Bill was introduced by Members of the Fianna Fáil Party with the support of this side of the House and that it had an integral right to deal with it. I also suggested that the Leader should put his name to the legislation so that it would be regarded as an all-party effort by this House to deal with the issue.

This is a cynical development which gives us a bad name at a time when we are trying to present politics as a profession for intelligent, bright and committed young people. This is the wrong type of message to send. It defies explanation and it will be used as yet another example of people playing politics.

I do not understand the objections to the Bill. Those objections should have been outlined on Second Stage and the Bill opposed. Every time I have spoken on this issue I have said it is the Government's right to govern and if there is something wrong with the legislation it should either take it on board or change it. We are not trying to pull a fast one on anyone but to reach a consensus.

The Bill is drafted in such a way that it does not create difficulties for other statutory and public bodies but co-ordinates their activities. On Second Stage I anticipated the establishment of an all-Ireland waterways body. On many occasions I have asked about the relationship between that and other bodies. The establishment of a waterways body makes it more important to have a Shannon river council which will co-ordinate activities. Waterways Ireland will have responsibility for navigation but not for water quality, leisure activities or the environment.

We set out to deal with this matter with political consensus. At a time when we are preaching consensus in the North and in the South in terms of our social goals, we should be giving the lead politically. It reflects badly on us that we cannot examine a problem in a mature way, change our approach and find a solution. This is a poor day for politics and it reflects badly on the Government.

I reinstated this Bill, which was drafted and introduced by Deputy O'Kennedy when he was a Member of this House, on the Order Paper shortly after the Seanad started. I was approached by the same people with whom Deputy O'Kennedy had been in contact because they saw the need for one co-ordinating body to tackle pollution, drainage and flooding in the River Shannon. We saw the consequences of such flooding in County Longford over the Christmas period. I was happy to reinstate the Bill on the Order Paper because I agree with the principle behind it.

Party politics should not be an issue. I am glad of the support of other parties on this side of the House. Senator O'Toole is right that the reaction of the Fianna Fáil Party engenders cynicism in the body politic. Initially it supported the Bill but it now objects to it because another political party is promoting it.

The Shannon river council should be established. Less than two weeks ago north Tipperary county council heard a presentation by the Lough Derg and Lough Ree management committee which published a report that has been discussed in this House. It made the point that the quality of the water is deteriorating and that a number of proposals must be put in place to improve it and to tackle the sources of pollution in industry and agriculture. There is a growing need for a co-ordinating body.

The measures the Minister has announced are valuable and important. However, they do not meet the level of co-ordination required to deal with environmental pollution. They do not meet the aims and targets of the legislation. We need one co-ordinating body, such as the Shannon river council.

This Bill should be accepted because it is essential. I appeal to the Government to embrace the spirit of the legislation which emanated from the Fianna Fáil Party. I encourage it to take the principle of the Bill on board and to allow it to go to the other House so it can be put on the Statute Book.

This matter has been debated in the House since the Seanad started. The River Shannon is a great natural resource which must be preserved and enhanced. While this Bill was introduced in the last Seanad by Deputies O'Kennedy and Daly, we must listen to what the Minister said. He acknowledged that he supports certain sections of the Bill but he maintained that the co-ordination and promotional roles, if not the executive function, can be met by other agencies.

It was unfortunate that in the lead up to the Good Friday Agreement certain provisions, such as those relating to the North-South bodies, were amended to accommodate everyone. The remit of the North-South bodies will be in general areas and will not have as big an impact as I would desire on the population in the North and South. However, the six areas of co-operation are meaningful. We should welcome the suggestion that Waterways Ireland, which is one of the North-South bodies, is assuming a role in navigation and we should do nothing to diminish the role of the North-South bodies. I would concede that some Senators are more familiar with the Shannon than I am. However, is there a possibility that Waterways Ireland's brief could be extended to include water quality, pollution control, fish habitats and the promotion of the Shannon, as set out in the Bill? This may be a way of accommodating the intentions of Senators.

In my 18 years in these Houses I have never known a Government to vote for a Bill on Second Stage and oppose it on Committee Stage. We are making parliamentary history and that does no credit to the Government. Some Government Senators accept that there are good provisions in the Bill and we are open to amendments and suggestions to improve it.

This Bill was introduced in the previous Seanad by two of the finest minds in Fianna Fáil, the constitutional expert, Senator O'Kennedy, and Senator Daly, who was one of the most able and experienced Ministers, as a response to a specific problem and it received all-party agreement. However, the problems have not gone away but have become worse.

This Bill was introduced in good faith. If the Government could not agree to it, it should have done the manly thing and voted it down on Second Stage. However, we have a charade and a fraud where we discuss the detail of the Bill on Committee Stage knowing that it will be thrown out. Why are we wasting our time going through all sections of a Bill which the Minister of State has stated will be thrown out? We are prepared to adjourn to allow him to re-examine the Bill if he will give a commitment to introduce amendments he believes necessary or to amplify it where it needs to be amplified. However, I do not think the Minister of State will do so. I take no pride or pleasure in this situation as I hoped this House, for which we all have so much respect and affection, would play a significant part in helping to resolve the problems which need to be resolved.

This is a disgraceful performance by the Minister of State. There has been a call for this kind of Shannon river council for the past 40 years. Several authorities have different controlling interests on the Shannon, none of whom trusts the other. People who use the Shannon or who have riparian rights trust none of them.

Over the years there were calls for an independent co-ordinating body which was provided for in this Bill. Less than six weeks ago the Minister of State heard all the speeches made on this Bill with which he agreed. I was in the House for his reply on Second Stage and he indicated that the Government was accepting points made on both sides of the House in support of this legislation but now he has the temerity to tell us that the Government is rejecting the Bill. That is a disgraceful performance and it only increases cynicism in politics and politicians that we say one thing today but do and say something different tomorrow.

What am I to say to my constituents in Counties Roscommon and Longford? What is Senator Finneran, who lives in the same constituency and who has been vocal and positive on this issue, to say to the constituents to whom we made promises on this issue? Hundreds of people gathered in a hotel in Athlone after Christmas when the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, clearly stated that she was in favour of the establishment of a Shannon river council, a commitment published in local newspapers. What is the public to say to a Minister who behaves in that manner? I presume this decision was taken by the Cabinet, of which she is a member. How do we explain this kind of bad behaviour to the public?

The Bill's stated objective was the establishment of an independent body whose functions were laudable and simple. The Bill states, "The functions of the Council shall be to propose policies and priorities for the enhancement of the water quality of the Shannon River."

Acting Chairman

I would ask the Senator to read the objectives when we come to that section. We have to deal with the Bill.

I hope, Acting Chairman, that you understand my anger.

Acting Chairman

We will come to that issue later.

What we have seen this evening does the proceedings and reputation of this House no good. Neither does it do any good to the reputation of the Government for whom the Minister speaks. This is a bad day for politics and for public life.

I have listened carefully to the remarks of Senators. However, I am somewhat taken aback and I question where the cynicism is in this House.

We did not break our word.

I did not interrupt the Senator and this is the second time I have been interrupted. I did not have to come into the House and do what I have done but, as a courtesy to all Members, I outlined what I was proposing to do at the opening of proceedings. It would have been discourteous to say nothing until the end of the debate because of the interest of all Members in this issue. There has been no cynicism on my part.

Senator Connor incorrectly stated that I was in the House for the Second Stage debate. I did not take or comment on the Second Stage debate. That shows the Senator's knowledge of what has been going on.

The Minister was present for the end of Second Stage.

I was out of the country.

Acting Chairman

The Minister, without interruption.

I wish to address the fundamental issues which have to be dealt with. I have acknowledged that the contents of the Bill, as proposed on Second Stage, have enormous merit. I undertook to examine this issue after Second Stage to see if we could proceed with the Bill in a way which met the requirements of Senators who made representations on this issue and, particularly, those people who live in the areas directly affected.

I did not come into the House with the usual response that the Government has better legislation with which it will proceed. I came into the House to outline two specific issues. First, Waterways Ireland takes up its responsibilities on Saturday, 1 April. This is a cross-Border body and what would it think if I tried to introduce a second statutory body to deal with some of the responsibilities assigned to it? Navigation of the Shannon is one of the responsibilities assigned to the body, but it is very much a part of this Bill. This issue is fundamental to many of the recent problems as to who was doing what. It has now been addressed on a statutory basis by a statutory body called Waterways Ireland which involves all of the island. This is a very positive step.

The second issue deals with the EU directive and it is incorrect to suggest that this is somewhere down the road. For some time, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government has been involved in discussions with the EU on the directive. The matters referred to by Senators are directly involved in the EU directive in the context of all the responsibilities we wish to see taken on board with other agencies such as State and semi-State bodies, Departments, regional authorities and the Central Fisheries Board.

We are in the middle of negotiations, which I hope will completed in the short to medium term, which will directly affect the content of the Bill. I am not playing games. The Government will not pretend that it is doing something by allowing a Bill to pass. I could not move forward until these issues had been dealt with. That is the proper way to proceed. We have done much more than has ever been done before. I do not intend to be discourteous to the House or to be cynical – that is not my way. Two issues are being dealt with which will copper-fasten this matter. I guarantee the House that if they are not sufficient to address the matter we will take further action, but I will not pre-empt a statutory body or a major initiat ive which is being drafted in consultation with the EU under the water directive.

I have returned to Seanad Éireann to address specific issues. I will not do this on a cynical basis but to show the utmost courtesy and respect to the Members of the House. I have taken on board the views of everyone in the House. I have acknowledged that my own party supported this Bill and that it introduced a similar Bill while in Opposition. I am not hiding, I am doing the honourable thing in the interests of those who have been affected and those who represent the area.

Acting Chairman

Senators must understand that, under Standing Orders, I must go through the Bill section by section. If Senators could make their points on the sections to which they relate, it would be helpful.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Section 4 deals with the establishment of the Shannon river council. Are both Government parties opposed to the establishment of that council? It was supported by both parties when in Opposition. In spite of what the Minister of State says, this will be interpreted as a cynical and politically unacceptable move. Is this a Government decision or is it a Fianna Fáil decision? It looks like a Fianna Fáil decision. I want it to be clear that both parties in Government are opposed to this.

Will the Minister tell the House his objections to the section? No doubt his civil servants have prepared a script for him, to which he will have had an input.

It is not right that Senators should suggest the Minister of State is not making his own input to the debate.

Section 4(4) of the Bill states that the council shall, subject to the provisions of the Act, be independent in the exercise of its functions. Why does the Government object to that or the other three subsections of section 4?

I object to the inference by Senator Connor.

What is wrong with the inference?

The Minister made a statement. He is not bound by his civil servants.

Will the Minister of State read the objections which were prepared by his civil ser vants with his input? There is no improper inference in that request.

Are both of the parties which supported this Bill on previous Stages now opposing it?

Acting Chairman

I cannot compel the Minister to answer.

I understand that, but neither can the Chair compel us to move on to section 5 before we deal with the matter.

When the going gets tough, the Progressive Democrats gets going. It is strange that there is not a single member of the party here to answer. At least Fianna Fáil will face up to the mess which has been made.

Acting Chairman

Senators cannot talk about Senators who are not here.

That is my point. They are the dog that did not bark.

Will the Minister indicate if he wishes to reply?

Acting Chairman

The Minister cannot be forced to speak.

Will the Minister of State indicate if he will read out his objections?

Acting Chairman

That is a matter for the Minister of State. If he does not wish to speak, I cannot force him.

Will the Minister reply, through the Chair, to my query?

Acting Chairman

For the third time, I cannot force the Minister to speak.

Section 4 deals with the council which would be a legal entity in its own right and, therefore, would be able to sue or be sued. That gives the council a profound responsibility in its relationships with other bodies. Does the Government object to that power? Does it have any views on the issue?

Question put and agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Section 6 sets out the functions of the council. It states that the council shall propose policies as a priority for the enhancement of the water quality of the Shannon river and its catchment basis. In particular, it can co-ordinate the activities of public authorities and other organis ations; promote public interest to facilitate the enhancement of the water quality of the Shannon; make recommendations to regulate and control pollution and polluting agents, and co-ordinate the activities of public authorities and other organisations in matters connected with the management of the waters of the Shannon catchment.

The desires expressed by Members on all sides of the House in the debates on the River Shannon over the past two years are encapsulated in this section which sets out the functions of the council we are trying to establish.

I would like to hear the views of the Progressive Democrats. The party has had a view on this until now. It would be a pity if those views were not recorded when the Bill is being slaughtered. If the party's finger is on the trigger, it should be seen to be. It is unacceptable that party members should walk away from their political responsibilities. I believe in honour in politics and that people should say what they mean and mean what they say. Business should be done openly.

Section 6 deals with the functions of the council. The Minister said in his speech that this statutory body appears to cut significantly across the remit of the new cross-Border body. That is untrue. It is important that a co-ordinating body is established to ensure activities gel.

This is a classic political ploy. It is being suggested that supporting this body would in some way oppose the Good Friday Agreement because it would undermine the cross-Border bodies. It would not. I have raised the question of the cross-Border bodies and their relationship with Waterways Ireland on many occasions in this House. As I said previously, it is important that this legislation is in place in order that it should relate properly to the work of Waterways Ireland. The functions of this body will not cut across the work of Waterways Ireland.

The functions of the Bill do not refer to navigation on the River Shannon. The issue of navigation is very specific and is dealt with by a very technical group of people. It has not previously been included in this Bill. For the Minister to suggest that it conflicts with Waterways Ireland is misleading.

The EU directive deals with specific national issues. The Bill deals with issues peculiar and specific to the River Shannon which will remain in place when the Minister for the Environment and Local Government brings forward his directive. If the Minister feels a conflict exists he can introduce an amendment to the section. I do not believe any conflict arises and I would like to hear the Minister's views on it.

Acting Chairman

I ask Senators to ensure their mobile phones are turned off as two have rung already.

I apologise.

My question relates to the functions of the Bill also. Will the Minister tell us what his objections are? He said in his speech that the Bill had many merits. Is it in this section he finds merit?

There is a stunning silence on the opposite side of the House. Many Members who contributed to the Second Stage debate – they are here this evening also – spoke in favour of these four functions. How can they now vote against the section? Let them tell us why they praised such merits six weeks ago and why they now want to vote against them. I invite Members from the opposite side to make their views known.

The issue raised by Members opposite is clearly addressed by section 6. I disagree with the content of contributions from the opposite side. Waterways Ireland will take responsibility for the navigation of the Shannon from 1 April. As the Minister said, this is a significant development in the context of improved cross-Border relations. He also said it would be inappropriate to establish another statutory body which would cut across the remit of a new cross-Border body and that it would not be possible to transfer responsibility for navigation of the River Shannon to another statutory body. The Bill proposes that Waterways Ireland take control of navigation of the River Shannon and would, therefore, attempt to remove the remit contained in the Good Friday Agreement.

I understand the frustration which Members on the opposite side feel about the Bill and I ask them to understand the Government's position. Nobody from the other side would, I am sure, wish to undermine any of the cross-Border bodies already established under the Agreement.

That is the ultimate in political cynicism.

I do not think it is the wish of anybody on the opposite side to undermine the cross-Border bodies. Suggestions were made that there was interference within the Executive. The Government had to honour its international agreements while at the same time putting in place the wishes of this House for new structures to deal with the navigation of the River Shannon. Waterways Ireland assumes part responsibility for that matter.

The Minister dealt with other aspects of the Bill also. Perhaps I will leave them until we come to deal with the relevant sections. A conflict arises between what is contained in the Bill and the international agreement. This section could have been voted down at Second Stage but that would have appeared as though we had no interest in the Bill at all.

Senator Finneran is covering his political behind.

The Minister has outlined the problems that arise. If what the Minister is proposing does not cover what is contained in the Bill, he will take another look at it. I will address other matters as they arise under the relevant sections.

I do not mind when people disagree with me but there is no point in their disbelieving me. The facts speak for themselves. There is no conflict between the functions of Waterways Ireland and what is proposed in this Bill. Senator Kiely knows that the waters from his home town to Limerick are under the control of various harbour authorities. The buoyage is green on the Clare side of the river and red on the Limerick side. The buoyage colours from Mallow Street Bridge in Limerick up through the Abbey river and on to Ardnacrusha are red and black. Beyond the eighth lock on the Shannon-Erne canal the buoyage changes to black and white. The authority of Waterways Ireland stops at the new bridge in Limerick. Beyond the estuary is inland waterways. That is a classic example of why co-ordination is needed.

Section 6(1) outlines the policies for the enhancement of water quality, the environment and natural habitats and fishlife in the region. That in no way relates to the functions of Waterways Ireland. Section 6(1)(a) states: “shall co-ordinate the activities of public authorities and other organisations in the promotion of the functions of the council”. That cannot cut across the functions of Waterways Ireland in its navigational role. It does not interfere with or have any dealings with navigation. It is a job which would have to be done even if there were no boats on the river.

Section 6(2)(b) states that the council shall “promote public interest in and respect for and facilitate the enhancement of the water quality of the Shannon and the natural habitats of bird life and fish life”. That has nothing to do with navigation and does not and cannot relate to the functions of Waterways Ireland. Section 6(2)(c) requires the council to makes “recommendations to regulate and control pollution”. That has nothing to do with navigation.

Section 6(2)(d) requires the council to “co-ordinate the activities of public authorities and other organisations” and that is where the interface would take place, if required. I cannot identify what that interface might be or how it might happen. Theoretically, one could say that if it is included it could happen. Inasmuch as paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) refer to the functions under subsection (1), I do not believe it can. There is no conflict between this and Waterways Ireland. It does not in any way undermine it and there would still be a requirement.

Waterways Ireland is another authority in addition to ten local authorities, six Departments and a number of harbour authorities which have responsibility for the Shannon. The various Departments would still have an input. It is incorrect to say this cuts across.

If Senators would listen to and read what I said earlier, they might understand what is written in their Bill.

We fully understand.

In section 6(2)(a) and (d), for instance, there is a direct reference to public authorities and other organisations. That would automatically include Waterways Ireland. I am not prepared to set up as a new statutory body and something for which people have asked for years, something which is suddenly not good enough. I reject the cynicism of some Senators having come to the House with two specific proposals.

It is stomach churning.

The Senator made the point about the estuary which I made when I spoke about the EU directive aspect and when I outlined, under the district basin and those responsible, that it was recognised we were not only talking about the Shannon river but about the estuarine responsibility as well.

I agree with that.

Every aspect of what is proposed is being put in place and negotiated under the EU water directive. I cannot understand how the Senator can say we are doing nothing when all the issues—

The Minister of State will be ahead of the EU.

I cannot, nor could the Senator or anybody else, in the middle of negotiations on what will happen in the Shannon and other areas, introduce a Bill that would cut across what is being set out, which reflects and responds directly to the Members concerns. It would be cynical if I were to do that.

Why did the Minister of State not come clean on Second Stage?

I was not here but I will not disregard my responsibilities.

The Minister of State was here for the end of the debate.

At the end of Second Stage, I agreed to see if I could proceed with the Bill which is what all Members asked me to do. I took that on board. I could have said no but I wanted to find methods by which we could respond directly and positively to what was said in the House and, more importantly, to the people whom we are supposed to represent, particularly those in this area. The Government has done that.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 7 to 21, inclusive, agreed to.
SCHEDULE.
Question proposed: "That the Schedule be the Schedule to the Bill."

The Schedule sets out clearly the establishment of the council and its make up. It states that 20 members shall be appointed by the Minister, that a quorum shall be seven members, that the chairman shall be elected by a majority, that decisions will be taken by a majority vote, that in the event of a tie in the course of a decision, the chairman shall have the casting vote which will decide what action is to be taken, that the Minister will have the power to remove people from office if they are unable to continue because of ill health or actions deemed unsuitable to enable them to continue in office and that where somebody dies or resigns from the council, the Minister shall have the power to appoint somebody to take their place.

These provisions are common to all corporate bodies or semi-State organisations established by this House and are included in previous legislation. There is nothing unusual or different in this regard. I find it difficult to understand where the concerns arise in regard to the make up of the council and the way it will work. Under the Schedule the council is responsible for arranging meetings and introducing procedures it deems fit. It is very straightforward.

There has been an attempt this evening to mislead the public in regard to what is being done. This Bill does not deal with navigation, as I have said and as Senator O'Toole and Senator O'Meara reiterated. There is no conflict between this Bill and the waterways legislation which will come into force on 1 April. It is the ultimate in political cynicism to introduce arguments referring to cross-Border negotiations, the British-Irish Agreement and the Good Friday Agreement. It is an appalling abuse of these issues and important developments to introduce them in the House and to say this Bill would supersede or, in any way, damage them. This is a cynical exercise on the part of the Government to introduce these elements into the debate.

We have witnessed a gross and indecent political somersault by the Government. It stands shamed in the House. We have witnessed the Executive superseding the democratically elected Members and the constitutional right of Members of this House to introduce a Private Members' Bill. To allow it to pass Second Stage and not to introduce amendments on Committee Stage dealing with concerns which arise is the ultimate in political cynicism and does nothing to bring any respect to the democratically elected institutions of this State, particularly this House, the importance or otherwise of which is subject to debate. This is an opportunity for us to add something but the Government has dashed it against the wall with the ultimate in political cynicism.

We are entitled to ask what objections the Minister of State has to the various provisions in the Schedule. He stated that Waterways Ireland is a difficulty. That was dealt with by separate legislation enacted by this House. I recall that the then Minister for Foreign Affairs was present for the debate in November in which many Members, including me, spoke.

The Minister of State has told us that it appears suddenly there is a difficulty regarding the Bill. How can that be the case? He said that his colleague, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, recently advised local authorities to develop outline proposals on an inter-authority basis for appropriate projects for the establishment of catchment based water monitoring and managements systems. A body dealing with the catchment based pilot water monitoring scheme for the River Shannon is based in Roscommon and all the interested bodies have a say in that regard. Why does the Minister of State's speech imply there is a problem concerning something that is already in existence and working well? All of these matters were known. That particular body has been operating very well out of an office in Roscommon town since last summer. It is not that these matters were unknown to the Minister of State, but they are now being introduced as red herrings to imply some difficulty regarding the enactment of this Bill. That is the lamest of excuses.

The Senator has ably made my point.

I assure him I have not made any such point.

Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Acting Chairman

I call Senator Manning and ask him to speak only on the Bill.

I will speak on what is in the Bill. What is happening is extraordinary. This House unanimously accepted the principle of the Bill on Second Stage, every section of the Bill on Committee Stage, the Bill was reported and received for final consideration yet on the Fifth Stage it will be thrown out. That has not happened in the history of these Houses. It is the worst night's work in the history of the Seanad. It is shameful.

At least my colleagues opposite came in to face the music, unlike the Progressive Democrats. When I was in the Leader's position, Senator Dardis sought time for a debate on this Bill and spoke strongly in favour of it not once but twice, whereas the Progressive Democrats—

Acting Chairman

Senator Manning should not speak about Senators who are not present.

It is a disgrace they are not here.

Acting Chairman

Please, Senator Manning.

They will be here to vote. I do not want to embarrass the Chair. It is with great sadness we will face into a vote that will bring shame on this House.

Acting Chairman

I call Senator O'Toole to speak only on the Bill.

I will speak on the Bill. We have gone through the process of dealing with four Stages of this Bill and we are now on Fifth Stage. We have gone through every aspect and section of the Bill and not one disagreement was raised about its content. Every subsection and section has been considered and agreed and we are now at the point of accepting the Bill.

I would like the Chair to give a ruling on a matter. It is not acceptable, logically impossible and it is without precedent in Parliament that a Bill on which not a word of objection has been raised could be voted against. On what basis can that happen? It seems to ridicule and undermine the parliamentary process. It questions our work as legislators. It does not make sense. It fuels cynicism, removes integrity and raises questions about the importance of parliamentary representation and the work of parliamentarians. It defies logic.

It is beyond my comprehension that the two parties in Government could have supported every section of the Bill, accepted it on Committee and Report Stages and now vote against it. How can that be explained to a class of young people who seek guidance from parliamentarians, who would like to understand how the paradigms of democracy work and who would like the role models in public representation to be serious and committed legislators? What is about to happen with this Bill is an abomination of democracy, it undermines parliamentary representation and it is a shameful night's work.

Acting Chairman

I dealt with the Bill section by section as I was obliged to and each section was agreed and then we went on to Report Stage. I did not deal with the Bill in a different way from that in which Bills are normally dealt with.

I agree with that and I was not questioning the Chair on that. I asked if there was a parliamentary precedent where a Bill was opposed on Final Stage when the previous Stages has been agreed unanimously. I do not believe that has happened in a democratic parliament in any country in the developed world. It certainly has not happened in this Legislature. It is disgraceful.

Acting Chairman

This is a precedent. To my knowledge, it has not happened before.

I thank the Chair for that information.

Acting Chairman

I have dealt with the Bill as I was obliged to deal with it.

I understand that. The Chair should accept the Bill on this Stage without putting it to a vote, given that no objection has been raised to it.

Acting Chairman

I have to put the question.

On a point of order, I do not wish to take issue with the Chair but I understood the Chair was in the business of conducting the proceedings of this House rather than expressing an opinion.

The cheek of that. That is disgraceful.

Acting Chairman

I was asked a question and I will leave it at that.

I do not wish to be disrespectful to the Chair.

The Senator has been.

In response to promptings on the other side of the House, the Chair expressed an opinion about what is happening being a precedent.

Acting Chairman

Senator O'Toole asked me for a ruling regarding precedent.

I asked the Chair to give a ruling on the matter. I do not like the ruling, but I accept the Chair gave her ruling with integrity. I put my point because if all Stages with the exception of this Stage of the Bill have been accepted unanimously, should it be not be possible to accept this Stage without putting it to a vote? That seems a reasonable and rational proposal.

It is unprecedented in this House and I understand in the other House that a Bill, having been unopposed on five Stages—

Acting Chairman

It has not passed five Stages. We are on Fifth Stage.

It has passed four Stages unopposed. At no point during those four Stages was there a vote on any section nor any amendments introduced. It defies logic, reason and legal argument to take this line of procedure. It is unreal. It is a mockery and a political somersault by the Government to adopt this cynical exercise.

Acting Chairman

We are having repetition. I explained that I went through the Bill as I am obliged to and I said that I did not have any knowledge of a precedent.

I am not arguing about that.

Acting Chairman

We are having repetition.

There is no question but the Chair has done everything above board and in accordance with the procedures. The problem is in the way this matter has been abused by the Government.

Acting Chairman

We have been through this.

In all 16 speakers contributed on Second Stage, eight of whom were from the Government side and they supported the Bill fully.

Acting Chairman

Senator Taylor-Quinn, we have had all this before.

That is fine, Acting Chairman, but the Bill was supported fully by eight people on the other side.

Acting Chairman

Yes, Senator.

No Member of the House has put on record his or her reason for opposing any section of the Bill. The whole situation defies logic and any reasonable argument.

Question put.

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.

Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.Henry, Mary. Jackman, Mary.

Tá–continued.

McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.

O'Toole, Joe.Ridge, Thérèse.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Gibbons, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Haughey, Edward.Hayes, Maurice.

Keogh, Helen.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.O'Donovan, Denis.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Taylor-Quinn and O'Meara; Níl, Senators Farrell and Keogh.
Question declared lost.

When is it proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

Barr
Roinn