Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 2000

Vol. 164 No. 12

Taxi Services: Statements.

Mrs. Ridge

Although I am not prepared for this, we all know in our hearts what we want to say about this issue. I roundly condemn the taxi drivers for denying citizens access to the Parliament. To find Kildare Street closed was unbelievable. I know people believe they make a greater impact by what we euphemistically describe as "direct social action", but the opinion of the people of Dublin and the regard in which they once held taxi drivers is at an all time low after this morning's carry on.

A colleague opposite spoke about one law for some people and another law for others. There is no doubt that if any citizen of this city stopped their car in Molesworth Street and attempted to block Kildare Street, their removal would be rapid and the fine would be large for actually breaking a law. Today we saw a large number of people breaking the law. This was not an official union protest but an unlawful gathering which started with a member of the Garda Síochána being assaulted and a taxi driver being brought to Pearse Street Garda station. If there was a way, I would have brought them all to Pearse Street Garda station.

This is a long festering boil that has finally been burst. If you operate a closed shop and make deals within that shop, I think it is actually unlawful to expect to get a tax write-off for making a huge profit, as many taxi men have over the years. They started the system of putting a price on plates and of saying "You cannot come in, unless you get the approval of the committee". I heard a taxi driver on the radio some time ago agree that this was the case.

I lack sympathy for taxi drivers. The case was well put on Pat Kenny's show last week when it was acknowledged that the paralympians, whom we all rushed to praise and greet, could not be transported home from the national television station. The two companies RTÉ rang could not get anyone to respond who would take people with mobility disabilities. I have almost no sympathy for them.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for somebody who claims to have bought a plate three months ago for £75,000 and believes they are going to lose their home. How could anyone have been so ill advised as to pay out that money in the middle of a long drawn out dispute on how the taxi licensing issue would be resolved and in the face of an imminent decision which anybody could have told them would do away with that system? I am very happy that system is being done away with.

I am coming across as distinctly unfriendly towards taxi drivers but I think I am reflecting the feelings of the people of Dublin who have been held to ransom week in, week out by taxi men. The latest I heard was that there was a complaint about the issuing of receipts. Members and other citizens must account for every penny we receive. Why should taxi people be any different? If a certain group is given a tax write-off because the capital loss involved is great, which it would be in some cases, it may open the floodgates. Another speaker mentioned the example of the owner of a corner shop who invested his life savings in his business, but the village was bypassed and he lost out. There is no compensation for such people. If this move goes ahead, it will open a Pandora's box in this area.

On the plus side, the Minister of State showed courage. However, I suspect that if an opinion poll was taken today, the recent glowing results for the Government would be dimmed because, as Members noted on the Order of Business, there are ongoing rail and air strikes, taxi drivers are refusing to behave as good and lawful citizens and many other anarchic things are going on in society. People keep saying we have never had it so good, but there is nothing good about a system where public transport has come to a standstill and the streets have been taken over by an unlawful gathering.

Regarding the new proposals, I welcome the £100 charge, a relatively small amount, that will be added to the £5,000 licence fee. I hope this will put an end to the blatant and awful discrimination carried out by taxi men and some hackney people against the disabled. I heard a woman on the radio yesterday say how she had booked a taxi three days in advance of an event she wished to attend, but on the day the company rang to tell her it was sorry it could not bring her. She could not make a simple trip to the theatre.

It is time people are made accountable and responsible. I am in favour of the issuing of receipts. An allowance should be made for a person who came into the business recently and may lose out on that level. However, I heard today of people earning salaries of £800 a week for the past number of years. Why is there any need to compensate these people?

Ireland has been strangled by regulation. Every time we try to do something, we are prevented. An example of this is pub licences. This is not a free society and I am delighted about deregulation if it means the public will get a better service. Our role is to ensure that is the case.

I acknowledge the Minister of State's courage, although he may have to pay for it because it is obvious that some of his Fianna Fáil colleagues are already backtracking to a great extent. I heard one Fianna Fáil Member on the radio yesterday and if there was ever a case of trying to save Fianna Fáil in this morass, that was it. It would be remiss of me not to remind the House of the massive backing given to certain Fianna Fáil candidates in the last general election by taxi men. Perhaps the chickens have come home to roost to some extent.

Ms Cox

It is unfair to make allegations like that. They should be substantiated or withdrawn.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Cox will have an opportunity to refute those allegations in her contribution.

Mrs. Ridge

I do not have to withdraw them because I saw the signs myself. All the taxis on the north side carried the Fianna Fáil logo and banners. That is the truth.

Ms Cox

That is not right.

Mrs. Ridge

It is not an untruthful statement. I hope I would never make such a statement. The Minister was pinned to the wall but he had the courage to make a decision and I applaud him for that. It is one thing we have been waiting for.

We must remember that we went to the local authorities who had been given certain rights in this matter. For years the four local authorities worked very hard in Dublin. When everything was about to be solved Deputy Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, introduced the taxi forum. It is not our fault, it is the Government's fault. There will be no bleeding hearts for taxi men on this side.

Mr. Walsh

I do not know why Senator Ridge is surprised that taxi people in Dublin supported Fianna Fáil in the last election after two years under a rainbow coalition Government. They were not alone. Many people supported the party. Anyone with a bean in their head would want to see our economic performance being managed effectively and efficiently. To those of us who can cast our minds back to the mid-1980s, when such mismanagement took place under the Fine Gael and Labour Parties, it is a wonder that there are not more groups supporting Fianna Fáil in various elections.

Mrs. Ridge

I wish Senator Walsh would change his speech. He mentions that every time he comes in here.

Mr. Glennon

The Senator brings out the best in him.

Mr. Walsh

The Minister has been complimented for his courage regarding this issue. He has shown, as the Government has shown, determination and innovation in tackling many underlying problems throughout various Departments and issues. Public transport is one of the biggest challenges facing any Government. A dearth of imagination, investment and commitment was evidenced in the past by successive Governments ensuring the Irish economy of today, which is a role model for many developing countries, should find itself with an infrastructural deficit and shortcomings in our public transport system. I applaud any initiative which tries to improve the system and ensures that the quality of life of our people will have, as a necessary component, an effective and efficient public transport system.

The deregulation of taxis was on its way. Like Senator Ridge I welcome the initiative. I would welcome any initiative the Minister would take to dismantle the dinosaur that CIE has become. The appalling disregard for commuters and anyone using public transport by those who earn their living from it and are charged with the responsibility of successfully running those operations is nothing short of being indictable.

This all comes about through the Dublin Transportation Office. Various targets and commitments have been made within that to tackle, particularly in Dublin, the infrastructure and shortcomings in our transport system that I have alluded to. A tremendous investment has been made. By the end of this year more than £500 million will have been invested in the Dublin transport management and infrastructure projects within the DTI framework. A further £16 billion will be committed to improving transport infrastructure. All of that should be welcomed.

For anyone who might say action should have been taken earlier, the consultative approach taken by the Minister and the Government and the setting up of a forum to examine the issue was welcome. This does not take from the fact that they had specific objectives which were clearly set out in An Action Programme for the Millennium. They said then that they would introduce measures to increase progressively the number of taxi licences in Dublin as quickly as possible in order to ensure a proper balance between supply and demand in the market.

Senator Ridge is no longer with us. However, I remind her and other speakers who may come later that it is interesting to note that prior to the initiatives taken by the current Government there was no increase in taxi licences in the Dublin area by the previous Government, despite the fact that there was evidence of shortages in the number of licences and taxis available.

The Government increased the number of taxis by 750 between 1997 and 1999. The Minister then took an initiative to increase the number of new Dublin taxi licences to 3,100, which was the subject of the court hearing. As a consequence of the court decision, we now have complete deregulation. That will be subject only to frequent and systematic testing of the cars. The Minister has taken an initiative in that area to ensure that any delay in implementing and accelerating the testing process will be dealt with by the Garda public service vehicle inspectors. The Minister has tackled an extremely thorny and difficult issue which has been with us for many years.

Taxis must be fitted by January 2002 with taxi meters which are capable of printing automatic receipts. The new regulations also validate the operation of taxi sharing from taxi stands designated by local authorities for this purpose. This was brought in on a trial basis and, as many speakers have said, has worked quite well. It is good that all these initiatives are being put in place. New licences will cost £5,000 and the Minister should be applauded for giving a discounted rate of £100 to those applying for wheelchair accessible taxi licences.

I empathise to some extent with taxi owners who invested in taxi licences over the past couple of years. I know some people deride them for not being very prudent or wise. However, given the growth in the economy, they saw this as an opportunity and they played under the rules that existed at that time. Where the State has knowingly allowed a situation develop over many years where taxi licences became a very costly asset, there should be some recognition of that. The Minister is talking about compensating the people who paid £15,000 for wheelchair accessible taxi licences which will now cost £100.

Many Members have spoken today about not compensating taxi owners. I will not necessarily quibble with that. However, I approach this on the basis of my experience in the haulage industry, where there was a move in the 1980s from quantitative to qualitative controls. The enforcement of those qualitative controls was not done in the way enunciated at the time the legislation was planned and passed. One of the criteria laid down was that people would need a certain financial standing. Perhaps, to ensure a level playing field, the proposed £5,000 cost of a new licence could be considerably increased so that those entering the market would have to show they have sufficient financial standing to undertake and provide the service required of them.

From 2003, the process will commence of making all taxi vehicles wheelchair accessible, which is a move in the right direction. The Minister has called on the taxi industry to respond positively. While this may be difficult for them, there is nothing to be gained in the present climate by the kind of action they took today. They will lose the support and sympathy of those who might empathise to some extent with some of the arguments they put forward. Deregulation and competition are now the order of the day in every industry and one is sailing against the wind in not accepting and moving with that. The tax allowances indicated by the Minister, whereby people will be able to write off the cost of their losses over a number of years, is probably to be welcomed.

The whole taxi industry, particularly in Dublin, should be looked at from the point of view of marketing and presenting an image of Ireland. Taxis in other cities, whether they are black cabs in London, yellow cabs in New York or green and white cabs in Barcelona, are distinctive vehicles. We should encourage and give an incentive to taxis in Dublin to have a single livery which would set them apart and present a better image of the taxi service.

I have no doubt that many taxi drivers are providing a good service. The industry has come under criticism because of the shortage of taxis at crucial times, particularly Christmas and weekends. However, it is important, with deregulation, not to let fly-by-nights enter the business as that would do nothing for the image and status of the service. There needs to be a gradual transition to ensure the quality of service is maintained. However, the community is entitled to a proper and available service.

Mr. Ross

I wish to share my time with Senators Norris and Quinn.

Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Cregan)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Ross

I do not believe I am living in the real world having listened to Senators Walsh and Ridge. There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Congratulations, apparently, are due to the Minister for taking these courageous measures. Did nobody listen to "Morning Ireland" this morning, where the Minister said he had no option? It is nothing to do with him. He was told by the courts that the taxis had to be deregulated.

We have seen in this country a constant stream of misleading of taxi drivers by Fianna Fáil, giving them a false sense of security and saying it will be all right on the night. Had the courts not reached this decision, this would not be happening and the taxis would not be deregulated. There is a misunderstanding here. No initiative came from the Government. The initiative came, as it so often does in this country, from the courts. It did not come from the Progressive Democrats either. Let us make that absolutely clear. There is nothing more sickening—

Mr. Walsh

I commend the revised Action Programme for the Millennium to the Senator – he will find it all there.

Acting Chairman

Senator Ross, without interruption.

Mr. Ross

—than seeing Fianna Fáil when it is told to desert its former friends. There is a case for examining where the money came from for the Fianna Fáil coffers in north Dublin in the last election. It is only right and proper that we know whether the taxi drivers supported Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Progressive Democrats or anybody else. If they had a lien and leverage, we should know that they are getting support for a closed shop simply and solely because they are bankrolling the Fianna Fáil Party in those areas. That is what we need to know. That is over now. It is completely and utterly finished, which I welcome.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the taxi drivers. This should have happened many years ago. The taxi drivers did not give two hoots about their customers when they were standing in the rain for hours in Dublin, as long as they were part of a closed shop and a monopoly. That closed shop and monopoly was supported principally by the Fianna Fáil Party for reasons which are best known to the individuals concerned and nobody else.

I would like to qualify that in one respect – I feel some sympathy for those who made the appalling mistake of paying £80,000 or £90,000 for these plates. Any human being must feel that. However, I do not blame them so much. I blame the politicians who misled them into believing these plates were and would always be worth that. Someone who spends that kind of money and loses it all overnight has been lulled into a false sense of security. People are vulnerable to those sorts of assurances.

I hope this is the forerunner of an end to all cartels in this country. It is easy to talk about deregulation but it is harder to implement it because of the strength of the political lobbies. This one made absolute sense as supply and demand will match here. There is no doubt there will be more taxis on the road by Christmas because that was being stymied. However, I would like to see the Government taking initiatives in regard to publicans and banks and not being forced by external sources outside the political arena – as the banks are being forced at the moment by the European Commission – to take decisions of this sort, which are absolutely necessary and only just.

Mr. Norris

Senator Ross is quite right that this came about as a result of a clear court decision. What are the further implications of this? If Ministers have no right to restrict these kinds of licences, what implications does that have for the licensed vintners? There is a complete anomaly with regard to pubs which must be urgently addressed. It is ridiculous that a pub licence in, say, Kilkenny or Limerick is bought, the pub closes down and the licence is transferred to Dublin. That is crazy. It means that people are making money in a completely unprincipled way.

I have some sympathy for the taxi drivers, but not especially for those who bought plates in the past six months. That appears to have been such a spectacular folly that folly must have its own reward. It is not one individual who has hit turbulent times but a group of people who are being disadvantaged. They have been given mixed messages. I have listened to the coverage on the radio. In one case, for example, somebody said he had to mortgage his house because the banks would not advance the money on the strength of the taxi plate, which it valued at zero. Simultaneously, the Revenue Commissioners were valuing them at approximately £73,000 for the purpose of inheritance tax.

Of course I have sympathy for a widow who invested the proceeds of her husband's life assurance in a taxi plate to look after her children. As a compassionate people we must look after those who find themselves in this kind of situation. We cannot be completely heartless.

I disagree with the criterion Senator Walsh is seeking to introduce where people must be of such financial standing that they can afford to spend more than £5,000. I thought this was a republic. Why are we concerned with such extraordinary displays of a class system? What does financial standing have to do with it? Much more important criteria are the capacity to drive properly, to be courteous to passengers and to know one's way around the city. I would much rather see those implemented rather than the financial qualifications Senator Walsh seeks.

I understood it was a serious offence to block access to the Oireachtas, yet effectively this is what has been happening. Where are the clampers? They are usually all over the place attacking private individuals. Where are the police? They had an attack of blue flu so I suppose it would be a little invidious of them to go after people who are behaving in a similar fashion.

Mr. Quinn

I thank Senators Ross and Norris for allowing me to share their time. I congratulate those brave members of Dublin Corporation and the Members of the two Houses of the Oireachtas for their courage, more their recklessness and foolhardiness, in actually supporting over the years the demand that licences be restricted. I cannot believe they allowed this situation to go on for so long or that there has not been a revolution.

What has happened on the streets of Dublin in recent times has been deeply insensitive to young people, adults and anybody left waiting for taxis. We have seen the photographs and the television reports on what has happened as a result of this monopoly. Anybody who supports what the taxi men have been doing for years will not retain their seat in this House or in Dublin Corporation because there appear to be far more votes from those thousands of people who have been inconvenienced, stranded and left to wait in the rain.

The consumer interest must be paramount. We were told that there must not be competition on the air route between Dublin and London because it would damage jobs and lead to other negative consequences. Yet, when competition was introduced it resulted in far greater numbers travelling at far lower prices and on a far better service. Similar consequences followed when the telephone system was deregulated. We must deregulate.

I do not agree with Senator Ross, kind as he was to allow me share his time, regarding the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy. For the past couple of years he has been signalling his intention to do this but he has been stymied. He needed the help of the courts to achieve what he wanted. I congratulate him on his ability to outline what has to be done.

I recently visited Singapore and Hong Kong which, with Ireland, are regarded as the most economically free of states. I discussed our taxi services with a person from Singapore. He knew what was involved. He told me he was part of a conference, involving 1,500 people, that was planning to visit Dublin two years ago. A delegation visited the city to plan the conference, but he said Dublin almost lost it because our taxi services let them down. They could not believe they were unable to get from the airport to their hotel by taxi. At a restaurant he booked a taxi to arrive in half an hour but was told he could be waiting three or four hours.

Not only the concerns of our consumers but the long-term economic prosperity of the country depends on avoiding all these cartels and controls. They are still being implemented in other businesses. For example, the chemists recently managed to secure a regulation preventing competition. Some years ago in Holland the grocers – more power to them – did their best to have a licence system because they said it would be unfair to allow competitors enter their market.

More importantly, the crimes committed on the streets of Dublin, especially those of assault and civil disobedience, have occurred because of the many hundreds of people, especially young people, who have no way of getting home due to the lack of transport. While there has been a lack of public transport the cartel imposed by taxi men has been especially prevalent. It is time something happened, as at last I believe it will. I congratulate those who have said it is time to end this and other cartels.

Mr. Dardis

It will not surprise Senator Ross to hear that I applaud the action taken by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, in deregulating the taxi market. At its meeting this morning the Progressive Democrats parliamentary party expressed its total support for his action. Senator Ross said the initiative derived from the courts, but Senator Quinn rightly said it was the Minister of State's intention to deregulate prior to the involvement of the courts. The matter was referred to the courts and a judgment was made which has allowed the Minister of State to proceed.

I cannot think of any capital city in the world where one would be required to stand at 12.30 at night and wait for one hour for a taxi. That happened to me and many others at the corner of St. Stephen's Green. When taxis arrived the queue eventually moved. It underlines the fact that we do not have enough taxis. It is implausible for some taxi men to suggest that problems only arise at weekends. Even if that is the case they should be addressed.

An aspect missed in this debate is that deregulation will inevitably lead to the growth in the market to such an extent that those who have expressed the greatest fears today will have nothing to fear. There will be enough business for all of them. Let them go out and work for it.

Many of the people doing the most complaining on the airwaves today are the authors of their own misfortune. Had they taken a more flexible and reasonable approach at the outset we would not have got to the point where they believe their businesses have gone. This is underlined by the fact that people paid between £70,000 and £80,000 for the right to produce. If we attach a capital value to the right to produce, as has happened in the case of pubs and in other restricted areas, it automatically means the market demand is not being met.

It is appropriate to apply reasonable standards to taxi cabs. I took a taxi to Dublin Airport and made the mistake of sitting beside the driver. The taxi metre fell into my lap ever time the taxi braked. While such situations may provide a source of entertainment and colour to visitors, it is reasonable to expect that standards should be imposed. On a recent trip to Washington some people took a taxi to a shopping centre outside the city. The taxi driver undertook to bring them home at 4.30 that afternoon and he did so. On the morning of the day we were to fly out a taxi man undertook to collect us at whatever time we wanted and he did so. This illustrates that compe tition was working to the benefit of the consumer and that people were prepared to compete properly to ensure that an adequate service would be provided. Such a service is totally overdue; it should have been available to people in the capital and in other towns and cities throughout the country heretofore.

I live in Newbridge and we are all aware that there has been an explosion in the use of hackneys and taxis throughout Irish towns. Young people no longer do what they did 20 years ago, namely, go out to the pub and drive a car home under the influence of alcohol. They go to pubs and discos and take taxis home afterwards. When the market is deregulated, people will compete with each other and will provide the type of service to which customers are entitled. The Minister is to be commended for serving the public good, which is the function of these Houses, and for ending the chaotic situation in Dublin once and for all.

The issue of compensation has arisen and it has been indicated that compensation will be offered by way of tax write-offs. One might ask whether some of the people who were so resistant to this idea this morning have such a degree of standing and compliance with the tax man that they would welcome regular and legal write-offs. The issue of capital taxes arises in respect of some of the huge sums paid for taxi plates, which were tradeable assets, on the open market.

I listened to "Morning Ireland", the "Marian Finucane Show", the "News at One" and "Liveline" on RTÉ today. Joe Duffy's programme was the first one on which consumers had an opportunity to air their views as only the taxi men had outlined their views throughout the morning. Do the plain people of Dublin not have something to say about this? Does RTÉ not have a responsibility, in the interests of balance, to ask members of the public for their view when they are carrying out vox pop with taxi drivers in Temple Bar?

I do not have a problem with taxis blockading Leinster House and do not share the view that this is unacceptable, although I am aware it is illegal. Farmers, trade unionists and others who protest outside the gates also break the law as they are obliged, by law, to protest outside half a mile of the gates; I am open to correction on the exact distance. The law is infringed all the time. If taxi drivers wish to make a democratic protest, that is fine with me. However, it is not acceptable for them to block Dublin Airport, the city's commercial heartland. If they are going to target people, let their target be political and let them target us. It is not acceptable that ordinary people are being impeded in going about their business and I would urge the gardaí to ensure that does not happen.

I am aware that Members have an absolute right, under the Constitution, not to be impeded in their passage to the Houses of the Oireachtas and there are very good reasons for that. A single vote could lead to the fall of a Government and it would be wrong to impede a Member coming to the House to cast his or her vote. However, I do not have any particular difficulty in a democracy with people making fools of themselves outside the gates of Leinster House.

Mr. Coogan

I wish to share time with Senator Costello as we may run out of time for these statements.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Coogan

Senator Dardis referred repeatedly to Dublin throughout his contribution. Dublin is not the only city in Ireland.

Mr. Dardis

I also spoke about the metropolis of Newbridge.

Mr. Coogan

It is difficult enough to get through Newbridge at times but that results from a lack of infrastructure and does not have anything to do with the taxi drivers.

Mr. Costello

Newbridge is part of Dublin at this stage.

Mr. Dardis

I realise there is a city west of the Shannon.

Mr. Coogan

Yes, and it is not just for fishing. It is a highly industrialised commercial centre which faces the same problems as Dublin in regard to taxis, among other things.

It has been suggested today that taxi drivers are almost thugs. It was also suggested that they were making payments to a political party. Reference was made to taxi drivers' anti-social nature and the fact that they are choking up the city. That is not a fair picture. It is not acceptable to tar all taxi drivers with the same brush as if they were all bad people. They are not doing anything more than any other group would do in the same circumstances in that they have merely sought to protect their own interests.

Mr. Dardis

The Senator should not impute sentiments to me which were expressed by Senator Ross.

Mr. Coogan

I had an opportunity to speak to some taxi drivers recently, one of whom had only recently bought his taxi plate. I sympathise with that man. Members on the opposite side have asked whether we have a responsibility to subsidise people or protect their interests if the law changes and a business collapses. The fact is that the decision in regard to taxi licences is affecting a significant number of people who have made a huge investment in their future and who have seen that investment being depreciated.

Reference was made to tax and it was implied that if taxi drivers were paying their full taxes, they would reap the benefits of a tax write off.

Mr. Dardis

I did not say that.

Mr. Coogan

It was implied. I have no particular reason to support taxi drivers but I am merely trying to balance the argument. I have been stuck outside Leinster House, unable to get a taxi, and have missed trains as a result. I have had to pick up my daughter at 3.30 a.m. in Eyre Square in Galway because she was unable to get a taxi, having waited an hour and a half for one. However, there are issues which we must consider in regard to taxi drivers which have not yet been discussed.

We must, for example, consider the threats taxi drivers face at night. I told one taxi driver that I thought taxi drivers went into hiding at night, disappearing at midnight because they had their money made. He said I was being unfair and that while taxi drivers recognise the demand, they sometimes do not want to pick people up at ranks. People, many of whom have been drinking, accumulate at these ranks at the same time, having come out of pubs, discos or fish and chip shops. The taxi driver to whom I spoke pointed out that if a driver were to drive to the top of a queue where a girl is waiting for a taxi, three men could pull her out of the way and sit into the taxi. He said he could not turn around and throw the men out because he would feel threatened. The shortage of taxis is combining with other social forces to create this problem. Members will be aware of the case in Galway some years ago where a female taxi driver was attacked and killed. Nobody has yet been charged with her murder. This is an example of the terror taxi drivers can face.

There is no doubt that the taxi industry was protected over the years. I am in complete agreement with the concept of more taxis. Deregulation will result in a sudden influx of people seeking licences and nobody will make a decent living for a while. Standards may drop until such time as market forces come into play. Some people will then be able to make a realistic living and others will drop out in the face of competition.

There is no such thing as a "wheelchair friendly taxi". A wheelchair friendly taxi is one which a disabled person, through his or her own effort, can board and sit in a safe position. Such taxis do not exist. I am aware that taxi drivers who received cheap wheelchair taxi licences – the Minister's proposal will make these licences even cheaper again – bought and modified vehicles for the purpose of making them wheelchair friendly but that purpose is not fully served. Where people invest huge amounts of money in making a taxi genuinely wheelchair friendly, the Government should subsidise them through a reduction in VTR or by some other method.

There are a number of other issues I would like to raise but, unfortunately, we are running out of time. There are two sides to every story and we should listen to both of them.

Mr. Costello

I thank Senator Coogan for sharing his time. It is unacceptable to have cartels and monopolies operating to prevent free and fair trading in a booming economy. It is a sad day when decisions are made in the courts, not in this House. There was a lack of courage on the one hand and, on the other hand, the creation of obstacles in the way of policies made by legislators and local authorities which would have ensured such a situation did not arise.

The problem largely arose when in 1995 the then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin, quite rightly handed over responsibility for the regulation of the number of taxis from the Department to local authorities. In Dublin the four local authorities came together and quickly devised a mechanism for the rolling introduction of new taxi plates for the entire metropolitan area and decided to begin with 800 taxis over a two to three year period. That was fought tooth and nail by the taxi federation, led by the spin doctor extraordinaire, Frank Dunlop, who was on a retainer from the federation. The main spokesperson was Deputy Ivor Callely.

We introduced the system and it was up and running, but in the general election of 1997 taxi federation members on the north side of the city carried Fianna Fáil advertising all over their cars with the names of Fianna Fáil Deputies. The local authority tried to increase the number of taxis available but we were once again stymied when the Taoiseach decided to set up his own committee, in opposition to the regulatory powers granted to local authorities, making it almost impossible for us to increase the number of taxi plates. The four local authorities in Dublin requested the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to allow hackney drivers use bus lanes, but the Minister refused and continues to refuse.

It must be stated that there is political cronyism and vested interest in this area. People in this House on the Fianna Fáil benches who own taxi licences have spoken on behalf of taxis and have not declared those interests.

Mr. Glennon

I ask the Senator to name them.

Mr. Costello

There are such people in these Houses who have not declared their interest. We must be clear about the source of the problems.

Acting Chairman

I remind the Senator that Members of the other House cannot defend themselves in this House and I ask him to refrain from naming them.

Mr. Costello

I wish to put on record that the situation should not have arisen and that it is a very sad day for democracy that it is the courts rather than we who are now directing policy. This has happened because there has been direct political interference in the matter.

There are serious questions to be dealt with, including the new standards which will exist and wheelchair accessible taxis, which have gone by the board. The local authorities had determined that in future taxi plates would only be granted to taxis which were wheelchair accessible, but the Minister has thrown that by the wayside and has said it will be dealt with at some future date. We do not know whether that issue will be addressed.

Quite clearly people will lose considerable capital assets, having bought taxi plates for up to £90,000. In the 1970s and 1980s many people invested their redundancy money in a taxi plate. Many people expected the value of their taxi plate would contribute to their pension. These are serious matters as families and earnings are affected.

I am not in favour of deregulation but rather of regulation, which is the way forward. Opting out of regulation results in total deregulation—

Mr. Dardis

And things come to a stop, as with CIE.

Mr. Glennon

Regulate everything.

Mr. Costello

—which results in major problems. The absence of courage and policy has allowed the situation to deteriorate so far and resulted in the courts making a decision. We then have an emergency response. It is just one month before Christmas and the Minister should not receive too much kudos for his announcement.

Ms Cox

Is the Senator for or against the new arrangements?

Mr. Costello

I do not believe there will be a single additional taxi on the streets of Dublin before Christmas. We have had similar promises for the past three years from the same Minister, but not one additional taxi materialised. I do not think there will be one additional taxi before Christmas this year because we have created an impasse and a massive blockade.

It is a very sad day that things have come to this. I put the entire blame for the matter on the Government side of the House.

Mr. Glennon

I wish to share time with Senator Cox. I am a north Dublin based Fianna Fáil Member of the House and I utterly reject the insinuations and statements—

Mr. Costello

They were statements.

Mr. Glennon

—made on the other side of the House. In the absence of solid or concrete evidence such statements or insinuations add nothing to the debate or the dignity of the House and I regret the tone they have introduced to the debate.

Mr. Costello

They are statements of fact.

Mr. Glennon

I ask the Senator to back them up.

Mr. Costello

The Senator should check the advertisements carried by taxis in 1997.

Mr. Glennon

This debate has so far centred entirely on taxis. We should place it in the context of overall public transport in the city and the entire country. Iarnród Éireann has basically come to a standstill and there are serious industrial relations difficulties in Aer Lingus. I join my colleagues in congratulating the Minister on taking steps to deal with the matter. They might not be to the satisfaction or liking of the other side of the House, but he has dealt with them and given an indication of the major steps forward being taken. If he had not taken these steps, or if they had no impact, taxi drivers would not have taken to the streets. We will be thankful to the Minister for the steps he has taken. The war has not been won, but hopefully this battle has been won and will be a forerunner of a number of other battles across public transport.

The people are in need of re-education in terms of public transport. In order to re-educate them as to the value of public transport we must put in place a viable public transport system. This is a major step forward in that regard. People were re-educated in terms of drink driving, which was an unacceptable norm in society. Dramatic changes were brought about seven or eight years ago in the run up to Christmas. There were no changes to the law, but the law was rigorously implemented. It changed for all time the attitude of society to drink driving and its attendant problems. This was one of the major contributors to the boom in the taxi industry which took place over the past seven or eight years, and it has contributed inadvertently to the major difficulties a small minority of taxi drivers and their families are experiencing today in relation to recent investments in taxi plates.

The taxi business is like others in that it must be subject to legislation, a tax code and market forces. Deregulation is essential and is to be welcomed. We must also remember that taxis are a public service which exist to serve the public. Historically, the taxi industry, particularly in Dublin city, has singularly failed to do this. Now at last standards that are acceptable to the public can be set. I look forward to a quality service being provided by the Dublin taxi industry. I look forward to a clean vehicle, a near immediate service and a receipt for each fare. I suggest also that a worthwhile test that may be introduced by the Minister when considering his qualitative options is an Irish version of the famous London taxi test of knowledge. We have had too many disaster stories of the scenic route being taken by taxi drivers particularly in the city and in my own part of the city in the region of the airport. I am of the view that a knowledge test should apply on an annual basis in the city of Dublin.

Ms Cox

In this instance I am disappointed to find I am in agreement with some of the points made by Senator Coogan. I understand the process as it occurred and the situation in which we now find ourselves but we are solving a Dublin problem to the detriment of the rest of the country. In Galway there is no doubt that we need a number of additional taxi licences but we cannot sustain a totally deregulated market in a city the size of Galway. People may say they are foolish, and they have been foolish but in recent years many people invested in taxi plates, remortgaged their houses, put their pension into one particular occupation, served the public for the past two or three years and are now facing wipe out. This country has never taken away the livelihood of any man or woman. That is where I have a difficulty.

While I accept what the Minister is doing and agree with his key objective which is to provide more taxis and a better service to the public, I disagree with the manner in which these regulations have been implemented. At this point I am in disagreement with the fact that the mechanism for dealing with the issues raised in relation to compensation and the money invested by many has not been published. The regulations and these mechanisms should have been dealt with together. Even when the Minister for Finance identifies exactly what he intends to do to take care of taxi drivers, their families, their widows and pensioners they will have suffered for a number of weeks between now and budget day without knowing what is in store for them. I have great sympathy for those people.

I wish the Minister had decided as and from now, not because of the Dublin taxi situation, as a gesture to the disabled, who have an equal right of access to all public services, that if taxi plates are to be introduced, taxis which have better access for the disabled would also be introduced. That is vital. That line should have been drawn in the sand today and not in two or three years' time. I am disappointed that has not happened. This matter could have been handled a little better. I am slightly critical of the Minister. We should have had a proper notification period in relation to deregulation and a clear mandate as to what would happen to those who may have invested recently to give them a sense of security and a little comfort. We are not in the business of making people bankrupt or taking away their livelihood. There are people outside the greater Dublin area who have mortgaged and remortgaged their houses, have payments on an asset which has no value, who may have been foolish to invest in it, went out on their entrepreneurial spirit, provided a living for their families, provided a service for consumers on the ground and are now facing a complete wipe out. I have great sympathy for those people. As a Government we have a responsibility to ensure nobody loses out to that extent from deregulation.

It is important to have more taxis, a better standard of taxi and disabled accessible taxis. We have to be mindful that Dublin is not Ireland and the solutions proposed to address the needs of the capital city do not always work outside the Pale. I asked the Minister for Finance earlier today to look at this matter when considering the mechanisms to be delivered on budget day.

Dr. Henry

In this new taxi era which lies ahead I hope the greatest possible attention will be paid to the character of those who drive the taxis. I am sure I am not the only Member who was horrified a couple of years ago to find that the man who was convicted of the sexual assault and impregnation of the child in the X case was driving a taxi. This was discovered because a young girl who had lived near that family took the taxi home one night. To her horror she found it was the man who had been convicted of a very serious sexual offence. I do not think people who have been convicted of serious sexual offences, or any sexual offence, or violent offences are suitable to drive taxis. I wonder what investigation takes place about their general character before licences are issued.

The financial situation is serious. The taxi should be in a roadworthy condition. On a recent radio programme "Liveline" people phoned in to say their young daughters were offered cheaper or no fares for sexual favours. It is right that taxi owners should say these people should be reported to the relevant authorities. I think taxi owners have to police their own people carefully. The last thing a girl trying to get out of a car and into her house will be looking for is a pencil and a piece of paper to write down the name of the taxi. We must make a serious effort to ensure those who are driving taxis are of the highest social calibre. I am sure these people are unusual but the taxi drivers themselves will have to take note of those who are taking young people around the city at night.

I doubt if the taxi drivers will be reading the deliberations of the Seanad but if so there is no point in 'phoning me or my family to let me know their views on the taxi situation. As my husband and I have explained to them I can do nothing for them. They think I am Mary Harney. Indeed, we have told them we doubt if Mary Harney can do anything for them either. There is no point in 'phoning me. I have suggested other TDs who speak out on their behalf that it would be better if they 'phoned them. I would be grateful if they desisted from getting on to me.

Mr. Gibbons

I wish to share time with Senator Fitzgerald.

Mr. T. Fitzgerald

The last four minutes.

Mr. Gibbons

I will be brief. I wish to add my tuppence halfpenny worth to the debate. I wholeheartedly welcome deregulation in this area. Listening to some of the contributions from the other side of the House, it is imperative to put the record straight. The Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, and my party, the Progressive Democrats, have always been in favour of deregulation of this area because everyone is aware of the problems people have had to find taxis in recent years. As a compromise, about 12 months ago, the proposal to issue a new licence to those who already held a licence was put forward. The hackneys, as is their constitutional right, challenged that point in the courts. When the courts issued their findings last week they said the issuing of licences had to be deregulated. I welcome that move and the Minister's speedy action on that court finding which will lead to a situation where hundreds of thousands of people will now have access to taxis. We will have more taxis and supply and demand will regulate itself in due course. It is important to allow supply and demand work in this area.

Another issue was brought to mind on Monday when I called to a garage to get bulbs changed in my car. There was a taxi driver in the garage who was having work done to the brakes in his car. This emphasises how important it is for taxi drivers and others to have cars in a roadworthy condition. The regulations lay down that cars must be tested regularly and I compliment the Minister of State in this regard.

Quality of service is an important issue. Senator Henry made a point about the quality of drivers and how they are vetted. I would not like it to go out from this House that, because of the actions of one particular man, all taxi men should be painted with the same brush. The vast majority of taxi drivers do a good job and will continue to do so. When this issue has settled down, the demand for taxis will grow and everyone will be able to earn a living from the business.

Mr. T. Fitzgerald

I am opposed to compensation or incentives for taxi drivers because this will open the floodgates. What about publicans who bought a licence for £100,000?

Mr. Coogan

That business is not yet deregulated.

Mr. T. Fitzgerald

What will happen if the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform makes it easier in a few years' time for such licences to be acquired? Will publicans be given a refund because they paid too much for their licence?

In relation to the fishing industry, one could buy a good boat for approximately £50,000 but the fishing licence costs £120,000. Where is the protection for the fishing industry?

Mr. Coogan

Give due notice and the value will drop.

Mr. T. Fitzgerald

Taxi drivers paid what they did because they knew the business was worthwhile. These people were not forced to buy a taxi licence. Taxi licences did not originally cost that type of money. At one time it cost approximately £1,000 to obtain a taxi licence. Because of the value, taxi drivers themselves put up the price, not the Government or anyone else. This is similar to the situation in relation to house prices. House prices in Dublin are increasing because of the demand. Taxi licences are expensive because of the demand for such licences. Why are taxi drivers afraid of deregulation? People who seek a taxi licence have the market well tested and know they can make money. This is why others will try to obtain licences.

I spent a weekend in Austria two weeks ago and was amazed at the quality of the taxi service. The taxi drivers were well dressed and wearing ties. I am not asking taxi drivers in Dublin to wear ties but they would need to improve their dress code. I like to get into a clean taxi if I am paying big money, which is what we are paying. Sometimes when I get a taxi to the railway station or Dublin Airport, every time the car goes over a pothole I can feel the sensation going right up my back because the car is a banger. However, this is not always the case.

Much needs to be done in relation to this issue. I have no sympathy for taxi drivers. I totally oppose compensation for these people and I wholeheartedly support the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, in his efforts.

Mr. Caffrey

As a result of this dispute, taxis in Dublin will not be displaying Fianna Fáil logos during the next election.

Deregulation of the taxi service is a knee-jerk reaction by the Government to a crisis in the city. Like the housing crisis, while the Government is trying to solve a crisis in Dublin it is creating a problem down the country. Whatever relevance deregulation may have in Dublin, it has no such relevance in rural Ireland. I come from a small town of approximately 10,000 or 12,000 people and, as a member of the local authority, I issued approximately 45 taxi licences in recent months. The general consensus among the taxi industry is that 45 licences is more than adequate for a town with a population of approximately 10,000.

As a result of deregulation, people who work during the day will moonlight at night. These people will cream off the lucrative taxi business during the week-end from Friday night to Mon day morning. Many taxi drivers say they may stay at home during the week because there is no business. The Minister of State's reaction is ill-conceived and badly thought out. It is a knee-jerk reaction to a particular crisis in Dublin where taxis are in short supply. One of the reasons for the problem is that there is not a proper public transport system. If one travels to any country in Europe one will find a proper public transport system. There is no problem getting a taxi in London because there is an underground system and a proper bus service in the city. There is nothing in Dublin. When I came up the quays today at approximately 11 a.m. I passed a procession of approximately 20 articulated trucks travelling in a line to Dublin port. This does not happen in any other city in Europe. This is exacerbating the traffic problem in Dublin and the crisis the Minister of State tried to solve by way of deregulation. Deregulation will not solve the problem. There will be total anarchy in the lead up to Christmas because the Carriage Office will not be able to deal with the number of applicants. That office can only deal with approximately 150 applications a week. I believe the public will have a nightmare experience in Dublin this Christmas as a result of this action so close to the festive season.

I agree with Senator Fitzgerald on many points. However, I do not agree with him on the issue of compensation. One person remortgaged his home and invested £75,000 or £100,000 in his business in anticipation that the business would be passed down to future generations in the family. He now discovers that as a result of a ministerial order his livelihood has disappeared overnight and he will receive no compensation. If the taxi industry was forewarned four years ago, the market would have started to regulate itself and this would have reduced the cost of taxi licences over a period of four to five years. We live in a free market economy and if this action had been anticipated, the market would have regulated itself and people would not be in this dire position.