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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Nov 2000

Vol. 164 No. 13

Order of Business.

The Order of Business today is No. 1, the National Pensions Reserve Fund Bill, 2000 – Second Stage, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes; No. 2, statements on Northern Ireland, to be taken not earlier than 3 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes. Senators may share time. Business to conclude no later than 6 p.m. Business shall be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

I have a slight problem with the Order of Business as outlined by the Leader. I have another engagement at 3 p.m., as have most of the members of my party. I will talk to the Leader about it.

We wish him well.

We will get the Senator a taxi.

I thank the Leader for his good wishes. I would miss the intellectual jousts I have with him here if I was not present. I will talk to him later to see if some arrangement can be made.

One of the most fundamental rights in our Constitution is the right of Members of these Houses to come here unimpeded and without intimidation. Over the past few days we have seen intimidation and the impeding of Members coming here. We have seen action which is purely unconstitutional and it simply cannot be tolerated. We can look after ourselves in these Houses, we are strong enough to do so. What about the hundreds of people who are handicapped, the old, the young and people who are being impeded, intimidated or deprived of their right to travel due to what is happening? It is something which no civilised State can tolerate.

I will not rehearse the arguments for or against what took place here yesterday. The Government has made an offer to talk to these people. Talking can only take place when there is no intimidation and an absence of the abusive behaviour and language that we have seen. The taxi people who may have a case have alienated the vast majority of public opinion. The longer they go on with their present activities the worse it is going to get. I call for sanity to be restored to this dispute so that talking can start.

We had a very long and detailed debate on that matter yesterday.

I know that.

I must also crave the Cathaoirleach's indulgence. We must look at the Constitution. We are its guardians. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that the right to assemble and protest, as Senator Manning has said, is a very precious right in any democracy. Article 40.6.1º.ii. of the Constitution is very clear and states in regard to the right of citizens to assemble: "Provision may be made by law to prevent or control meetings which are . in the vicinity in either House of the Oireachtas." We may pass legislation to deal with that.

Section 28(1) of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, very clearly states: "It shall not be lawful for any public meeting to be held . within one-half of a mile from any building in which both Houses . of the Oireachtas are .. sitting.", if it has been pointed out to any of the organisers that under section 28(1)(f2>a) a chief superintendent has "prohibited the holding of such meeting in or the passing of such procession along" that vicinity. It is important to put that on the record of the House. Section 28(1)(f2>b) provides that it shall not be lawful for a public meeting or procession to be held where a member of the Garda Síochána "calls on the persons taking part in such meeting or procession to disperse".

What is happening outside the House is an appalling image of democracy. It is like a Third World country. I speak as someone who has organised major protests in this city. Every protest, whether by general trade unions, farmers, residents or whoever else, complies with the laws of the State, in consultation with the Garda, and by common consent is restricted to Molesworth Street or elsewhere. What is happening outside is wrong. We should value people's right to protest but we—

We cannot reopen yesterday's debate on the Order of Business. I have given the Senator considerable latitude.

I accept that. However, I have not mentioned the topic of yesterday's debate. I am merely talking about the right of access to the Houses of Parliament, the law of the land and the Constitution of which we are guardians. What is happening outside is wrong. I do not want an over the top reaction. The right to protest is good. We have seen farmers, teachers, trade unionists, residents and many others make protests. That is what democracy is about. It is not about blocking participation in democracy.

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if a Garda superintendent or other member of the Garda asked the people who are blocking access to these Houses to disperse. If not, that should be done. These people are bringing into disrepute the right to protest and demonstrate which is—

I have given the Senator a lot of latitude.

—a jealously guarded right in our Constitution.

Yesterday we called for a wide-ranging debate on industrial relations. There is a degree of industrial chaos abroad at present. This House and the airport are blockaded and besieged. There is an official and an unofficial way to protest. It is time for this House to have a full scale debate on taxis and many other matters.

The trains are not running today. There was no air service yesterday. The teachers are on strike or, at least, are withdrawing their services. The Minister for Education and Science has reiterated that he will dock their pay. A range of industrial relations issues needs to be discussed.

The Leader of the House was kind enough to allow a debate on the taxi issue at short notice yesterday. We should have a similar debate today on the rest of the industrial chaos that is taking place.

Senator Ryan raised the issue of the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill yesterday. I think the Leader of the House stated it was no longer on the Order Paper. However, it is on the second page of the Order Paper.

I did not say that.

The indication was that it was being taken off the Order Paper. It has been on the Order Paper for the past 18 months to two years. It is a very important Bill because it relates to acquiring rights over land to enable network operators to open and use public roads for the establishment and maintenance of telecommunications infrastructure and to provide for the sharing of such infrastructure. This is the time to deal with the telecommunications infrastructure in relation to public roads and sharing that infrastructure. I cannot understand why the Leader is not pressing ahead with this legislation. Will he clarify the matter? Are we getting alternative legislation or will this Bill be taken off the Order Paper?

As you stated, a Chathaoirligh, we debated the taxi issue yesterday and I do not intend to reopen it. However, during the course of that debate I mentioned the aspect of people protesting outside the gates of the Houses. I am aware of the law Senator O'Toole quoted. However, that is not the most serious aspect. The disruption which means we find it difficult to get into the Houses is far less serious than the disruption caused to the commercial life of the country and the fact that people were unable to get to hospital or keep medical appointments. That is the aspect I would like to see dealt with.

The Garda has dealt sensitively and correctly with these issues. It has been part of our tradition for farmers, teachers, trade unions and everybody else to come to the gates of these Houses and to disrupt traffic in the city. The last time I remember people being stopped from entering that zone was when the famous farmers' protest was stopped at the corner of Merrion Square. Procedures can be put in place, as they were at that time, to allow the through passage of essential services such as ambulances and other medical services.

Yesterday Senator Tom Hayes raised the issue of the BSE crisis and what is happening in France. The Minister acted properly earlier in the week when the meeting was held in Brussels. It is good that testing will take place of cattle over 30 months that are under suspicion. However, it would be useful to debate the issue in its wider context in the House.

I am reluctant to allow any further comment on the taxi issue given that we debated it at length yesterday.

I also wish to raise the issue of the BSE crisis and what has happened in France, but also the knock-on effect on our beef exports. A number of countries have talked about banning beef exports from certain counties in this country and others have threatened to ban beef exports from the entire country. That is a very serious issue. Last year there was a very serious protest about this issue and an agreement was reached between the beef processors and the beef pro ducers, that is, the farmers, that a floor price would be paid for beef at abattoirs.

We cannot pre-empt the debate which has been sought.

I am asking for a debate. I want to elaborate slightly and I know you will indulge me, a Chathaoirligh.

Yesterday, Senator Tom Hayes made a very detailed case for a debate, which was supported by the other side of the House. I am allowing the Senator to support that but it is not in order for him to pre-empt that debate.

In case the debate is confined to the BSE crisis and our exports, I would like it to focus on the effect this is having on beef producers' incomes. They have suddenly been very seriously affected at a crucial selling time for them. They are making huge financial losses. I want a prime focus of that debate, which I hope will take place next week, to be on that aspect of this crisis.

The NUJ has responded in writing to the Seanad debate on standards in the media, particularly the article written by Mary Ellen Synon. It points out that she is not a member of the NUJ. However, does such a reputable and representative body not have influence on standards in general, particularly with management and editors?

I wish to place on record that the Official Report of the House shows quite clearly that I made no reference at any time in this House to Mary Ellen Synon. On 11 October, I raised on the Order of Business the question of standards in the media. I focused on a very distasteful article on the Kilkenny tragedy but did not refer to Mary Ellen Synon. On 25 October, when other Members raised the question of Mary Ellen Synon, I spoke on the Kilkenny tragedy but made no reference to that issue. On 7 November, when a discussion took place in the House on the media in general, I spoke at length about the Kilkenny tragedy but made no reference whatsoever to Mary Ellen Synon. The only reference I made to the Paralympics was a single sentence in which I spoke of the Kilkenny tragedy and mentioned the other related question. It is very important that the NUJ sets the record straight.

My respect for the profession of journalism is on the record and I repeat it here. I also repeat my admiration for journalists in general. In the absence of a press council, the NUJ has an important and pivotal role to play in maintaining standards in its profession.

I thank the Senator for that clarification.

Over the past two years I have asked the Leader of the House for a debate on the effects of radon gas and the Government's proposals to grant-aid people suffering from the effects of this. A recent report indicated that nearly 300 schools have over the acceptable level of radon gas. I ask the Leader to bring to the House the report of the radiation institute so that we can debate it and consider what can be done.

I know, Sir, you are reluctant to have any further debate on the taxi dispute. Yesterday afternoon a friend had his car clamped at the back of the House. He had no objection to paying the release fee of £65, but as neither cash nor a cheque would be accepted by way of payment he asked if he could borrow my credit card. He could not understand why he could not drive up Kildare Street, which was blocked by taxis. Not only were they not clamped but the gardaí were standing around. There should be equality of treatment.

For the second day in a row thousands of rail commuters have been left stranded. They have missed work, medical and surgical appointments and planes at airports. Industrial relations are so bad in Iarnród Éireann it is like Mount Etna – there could be an eruption at any time. There is a long history of low pay and morale at the company. Will the Leader ask the relevant Minister to attend the House next week, preferably next Wednesday, to debate public relations in the company and the provision of a public transport service? I am sure she will find strong support in the House for any changes she may wish to bring about to improve matters and to provide a proper service for citizens.

I support Senator Quill's call for a debate on public transport. I am concerned about access to the House. When driving to the House today I was stopped by a garda at the junction of Nassau Street and Kildare Street and told I could not drive up Kildare Street. Another garda allowed me to proceed. As a Member of Seanad Éireann I say that is disgraceful. Last year a court injunction was placed on the farmers who were protesting outside the meat factories. They were fined for their illegal activities. What is happening with the taxis is also illegal. Why has equal treatment not been applied? The matter must be addressed.

I support the call of Senators Dardis, Connor and Tom Hayes for a debate on the BSE crisis. The recent meeting on testing produced good results and will benefit Irish agriculture, especially the beef industry. With regard to the unrest among teachers, I compliment Nick Killeen who spoke as an elected member of an educational body when he called on children to attend school.

With regard to my call yesterday for a debate on the BSE crisis, I must emphasise to the Leader the vital importance of providing an assurance to consumers. Many people are concerned about BSE and the safety of our meat. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development must give even greater assurances. It is vital that when the Minister attends the House to debate the issue he gives the assurance consumers need. I am confident he can provide it.

I also support the call for a debate on the BSE crisis. Given the crisis in France and the knock-on effect on the beef industry here, farmers are unable to have their cattle slaughtered and they are being offered very poor prices. With Christmas approaching this is having a very serious effect on the beef farmers. No Member could understand the seriousness of the situation. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to attend the House to explain the consequences of the recent meeting with EU Ministers? I compliment the Minister on his stand and on the way he handled the meeting.

Other Members have spoken of the right to access and to travel. Will the Leader bring to the attention of the Minister for Health and Children the right of the people of County Monaghan to acute hospital services? Following two reports by so-called expert working groups, commissioned by the North Eastern Health Board, the people of County Monaghan will be denied access to acute hospital services. Most importantly, this week alone they will be denied access to acute maternity services in Monaghan General Hospital. This has arisen because of the lack of investment by the health board in the hospital over the last 20 years. Will the Leader ask the Minister to look favourably on our case? As matters stand the people in County Monaghan will be denied the right to a health service.

I support the call for a debate on the BSE crisis. It is important that the Minster outlines the present position and what he and his Department are doing to address the issue. There is a need to assure consumers within the Irish and European markets. The debate will also afford the Minister the opoportunity to outline the funding to be allocated to the CAP over the next six years.

I also support Senator Quill's call on the Minister for Public Enterprise to attend the House to outline the results of her discussions with Irish Rail, including the unions and the board. The Minister should also outline her plans for addressing the serious lack of public transport facilities. We in the west have had a disrupted service during the last seven to eight months, especially on the Westport railway line, because of strikes and repairs. Given the investment programme, it is important for the Minister to outline the up-to-date position and to indicate if and when the public will see improvements in the service.

I call on members of the ASTI to come down off their high horse. They are adopting an attitude that they are superior to all other teachers. They should recognise that they are on a par with them, no better or no worse. They need to enter the real world and stop making pawns of the students. They should realise that the livelihood and future of leaving certificate students depend on how well they do in the examination. Yet these teachers are prepared to put the students at risk for their own selfish gains.

Hear, hear.

The teachers are operating a lawful dispute. They are engaged in official industrial action.

They should join with the other unions. Is Senator Costello suggesting that other unions are inferior to the ASTI?

They ballotted their members and over 95% voted for industrial action.

They need to join the real world.

Senator Farrell, the points you are making will be more relevant to a debate to be held on this issue.

The teachers should not be making pawns of decent, innocent children. It is a scandal and a shame.

Senator Farrell, please resume your seat. I call Senator Coghlan.

Will the Leader inform the House of the likely publication date of the retail planning guidelines? There is an urgency about this following the recent uncertainty.

I take it that in view of the Tánaiste's reaffirmation of the groceries order, for all of the reasons she outlined and with which this House concurred almost unanimously, the Minister will rely on his own judgment and past decisions and will not deviate from the Goodbody Consultants recommendations.

There has been much debate on the taxi issue in recent days, particularly in regard to the loss some drivers will incur as a result of heavy investment.

I ruled at the outset that I would be reluctant to allow any further discussion on this matter as it was discussed in detail yesterday.

I apologise, I was not in the House for the start of the Order of Business. My point is that the ills of Dublin should not be imposed on people in rural Ireland. The Finance (No. 2) Act, 2000, included provisions for 9% stamp duty and 2% tax on second homes. We foresee huge difficulties arising as a result of this, particularly in County Donegal where there has been huge investment in the building industry. Donegal does not have the same housing difficulties as Dublin and I ask the Minister to reconsider the matter prior to the forthcoming budget and to amend the legislation accordingly.

I support the calls for debates on BSE and industrial relations.

We have all seen on our televisions in recent weeks the manner in which the Florida Supreme Court operates. The judges there do not sport the medieval garb and wigs which are in evidence in the Four Courts. The US system befits a republic far better than ours which is a throwback to colonial days. I ask the Leader to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We should have a legal system with which people can identify.

Senators Manning, O'Toole, Dardis and Rory Kiely highlighted the difficulties experienced by Members in travelling to and from the Houses of the Oireachtas and I agree fully with the sentiments expressed. The Government has made an offer to the drivers and I call on everyone concerned to get around the table and start negotiating. To date, the taxi drivers have provided a very good service to the best of their ability in circumstances which were not ideal. However, the manner in which they are conducting their protest is not winning them support for their cause.

They had an opportunity to protest yesterday but today it is time to negotiate. The drivers' case will be listened to at the negotiating table in the same way as the cases of other groups have been. Handicapped people, elderly people, business people and workers all have a right to go about their business and I believe the majority of drivers will recognise that a resolution can only be arrived at through negotiation. I will pass on Senators' views to the Minister after the Order of Business and look forward to the negotiations being concluded successfully.

A debate on industrial relations has been sought on numerous occasions, with Senators Farrell and Costello making a particularly forceful call this morning. I am pleased to inform the House that I have allocated an entire day on 7 December for this debate and I am hopeful that the Minister will be present.

Senator Ryan asked me about the status of the telecommunications legislation yesterday. I informed him that I understood the Bill had been withdrawn but I will seek clarification on the matter and report to the House next Tuesday.

Senators Dardis, Connor, Rory Kiely, Tom Hayes, O'Brien and Chambers called for a debate on the beef industry and I will provide time for such a debate. This is an industry which exports 90% of its produce and is, therefore, extremely important to the Irish economy. I will provide time for an all-day debate on BSE issues and the beef industry in general. We owe our thanks to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development for the determined manner in which he conveyed the seriousness of the position in which Irish farmers and the Government find themselves in a recent television interview in Brussels.

I welcome Senator Ó Murchú's clarification this morning with which I am in agreement. In the absence of a press council the NUJ is obliged to uphold standards in the industry. The NUJ felt very strongly about the article in question which appalled the entire country.

Senator Coogan called for a debate on radon gas and I will leave time for this. Senators Quill and Chambers called for the Minister for Public Enterprise to come into the House for a debate on transport in general and the rail service in particular. I will endeavour to meet this request.

I will pass Senator Leonard's views in regard to the entitlement of the people of County Monaghan to a health service on to the Minister. Everybody is entitled to such a service and the people of County Monaghan are no exception.

Senator Coghlan called for a debate on retail planning guidelines which are to be published shortly. I will leave time for such a debate. The Senator will be aware that the Minister has already taken action on the square footage to be allocated for such activity in the future in an attempt to protect long-standing family businesses.

Senator Bonner called on the Minister for Finance to review the 2% tax on second homes. I understand this was considered but could not be implemented as it would carry on to second, third and fourth homes. However, I will pass on the Senator's views to the Minister.

Order of Business agreed to.
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